ATTENTION UK TIRE MANUFACTUER’S

[Cockerill]

Is there any chance of having a UK national this year with proper tires?

I have an email dated 5th March from Schumacher saying there new mini-spikes delivery is still 5 weeks away, that would make it the 9th April, yet this weekend I heard that they are still not expected for the second national. Obviously the current Mini-Spikes have a problem otherwise there wouldn’t be a new mould in the works, yet we are still expected to run the ’problem’ tires at the highest level in the UK. Lets hope the 'new' tire is the same material/compound/spike as the old one as mid-season is not the best time to introduce a new tire.

Today I had my day essentially ruined by Ballistic Buggy Quality Control, along with a few other drivers, using tires that were sold as Green compound, yet clearly weren’t when compared to other Green compound tires.

So here are a few helpful hints for the tire companies:

Two tires that are the same in one packet are good, not one that has poorly moulded spikes and one properly moulded tire.

Tires that are the compound that is written on the packet is good, not a different compound.

Is there any chance this could be sorted in time for Oswestry?

You have known about the tire choices for the nationals for over 4 Months, you have known what tires work where in different weather conditions for years. Is it really that hard to have a properly moulded, correctly marked tire available at a National event?

PS: Quality Control is defined by Google as meaning, 'The process of making sure that products or services are made to consistently high standards.'. Quality Assurance is defined by Google as meaning, 'A review of a product or service after completion to determine the degree of excellence achieved and deficiencies that need correction.'. Hope this helps!

[bigred5765]

I'm with you all the way on this one tom
i wont name names unless we have to
but it ruined Matthews possible b final Quality today
and I'm sure at least a dozen other drivers runs
not the shops fault mind you
this ones down to the manufactures/quality control people
THANKS GUYS

[PaulRotheram]

Agreed, the ballistic tyre situation this weekend was nothing but pathetic. The rears seemed to be in the correct compound, however nearly every set of fronts that was able to be purchased were harder than the 'right' green which should be provided.

The bad compound was so bad I refused to run them and took them back as they were no where near what they should have been.

I'll be honest in saying that I honestly can't see this being resolved by oswestry, as tyre issues never seem to have a quick turn around. Look at last years schumacher problem with ripping tyres, it took long enough to get it nearly right, and it still isnt there!

Fingers crossed to a quick solution!

[bigred5765]

PPS: I'm pretty sure selling goods with an incorrect description is illegal, maybe I should get my money back? Maybe I'm wrong?

may be we all should:thumbsup:

[jimmy]

I had new green ballistics in practice and first round - I think after the second round the fronts were pretty worn so I got some more. The new fronts were definitely harder and feeling the spikes on my car now the rear tyres are plenty softer than the fronts.

[mw02veg]

aint good!!!

[Cockerill]

To be honest Paul, they probably don't see it as a problem, they still sell the tires as we have to buy them, I'm guessing the 'team' guys have no problems as they will get the 'softer' greens.

I also expect very few replies to this thread, people won't want to upset anyone, and I'll probably get a few stern words from a few people, but hey I'm sure most agree with me even if they don't say it.

A possible solution for next year could be: Each distributor/manufacturer can nominate one tread pattern, in as many compounds as they like. but every tire has to have 'BRCA' the tread pattern name a compound marking moulded into the tire wall. Dunno how hard it would be to do this, but I think it has been used in touring cars. IF made a rule the companies would have 5 months notice to sort it, although they would probably need longer going by the current situation.

[bigred5765]

sounds good to me

[Lew]

I only had problems with one set of rears.. but yeah that idea does sound good...

[PaulRotheram]

Thinking back to last year at Kiddy we had this exact same problem as Ballictic had a 'bad batch' and half the stock was soft and half wasn't. The compound seems the exact same as the bad ones were last season. I just hope they havn't rebagged them to get rid as it were.

It was definately noticeable watching cars with the right and the wrong compound on, kind of night and day really!

I do think alot of racers are thinking the same thing also, it simply isnt good enough.

[Cockerill]

It would be nice to hear from the manufacturers/distributors to hear what has actually happened, but again I doubt that will happen. I am going to email Schumacher, see if I can get another expected delivery date on the new Mini-Spikes.

[bigred5765]

matthew was a good 1/2 second a lap slower

[racingdwarf]

what do you all expect? with the current tyre rules the makers have no competition in the market place, So what if the tyres on the market are wrong.........what else are you going to use??Nobody is going to break into the uk market if brca rules state you can't use there tyres at nationals etc. A bit of healthy compatition in the market place would make Schumacher and BB work a bit harder,there tyres have been high price and crap quality for months/ years even.

I Know why the tyre rule was created but if you don't flex it a bit over the years this is what happens

[David Church]

I didn't hear anyone say there was a problem with tyres??? But, now I have read this, it may answer a few questions..........

[ashleyb4]

Does anyone know if anyof the other compounds have changed such as pinks etc?

A

[Richard Lowe]

This really does need sorting, my rounds 3 and 4 today were ruined by having the 'wrong' greens on the front - nothing that could be done either as that was all that was for sale on the day :thumbdown:

Why does it seem so hard for the manufacturers to produce tires consistently?

[DCM]

because it is a closed market?? let GRP in too, so then Schumacher and Ballistic won't have 'garaunteed' sales?

[Body Paint]

The idea behind control tyres is that people can use the same tyre through the series as well as be using the same as everyone else, IMHO the BRCA have done absoloutely the correct thing and nominated 2 tyres for the whole series.

The blame for the ridiculous situation with the ballistic tyres has to be layed at the manufacturers doors. I wouldn't beleive that there were essentially 2 compounds of greens going around until I felt them for myself, the hard ones were very noticeabley harder and felt more like the blue compound. Bad shizzle man :thumbdown:

Out of interest was Doms stock newish? or could there still have been some of last years batch still mixed in? DOM?

[ashleyb4]

Maybe there was a mix up in manafacture.

A

[DCM]

Maybe there was a mix up in manafacture.

A

if that is the case, more a mix up in packaging, as I would find it very hard to beleive that they could get the rubber compound so different......

[Jez]

dont want to seem stupid or ignorant to this problem,but seeing neither company or their reps have informed myself of such i am unable to offer any help,advise or solutions.please dont blame shops for this,we are there to help the majority of racers in any way we can and i for sure would not sell sub-standard goods knowingly or withhold any such information.i did have one pair of bb green rears returned last year by dan greenwood due to 3 or 4 spikes mis-shaped,gave a refund and used them myself.couldnt tell any different.{is that cos i am an f5?}

[Body Paint]

they all had green dots on the tyres:thumbdown:

[tyreman]

DC Racing's were collected from CML on the Friday afternoon.

[RogerM]

I can confirm that DC Racing's stock was fresh.

That said I gave just checked the tyres on my 4wd car, which have been glued up for about a month and the fronts are harder than the rears to the touch and harder than some other BB greens I have from before X mas so I don't think it would have mattered if they were fresh or not!!!

[Cockerill]

Jez, no one is blaming the shops for this as they it's nothing they can control, unfortunately you (the shops) are the first point of complaint as you sold us the goods, therefore you need to take it up with your suppliers.

Ash, if there was a mix up in manufacture it's there problem to sort, not ours to suffer

As I said previously, the tires for nationals were know about 4 months ago, yet the delivery for 1(maybe 2) of the 2 shops came in on the day before the first national. Is there no plan for the demand of nationals?

PS. I now know that both companies are aware of the problems, I look forward to hearing a reply.

[losixxx]

the reason tyres arnt pre arrange by shop's is a very simple 1, the weather, if it was dry over the weekend it would have been yellow schumachers not BB greens so for shops to order £2000 worth of tyres and have them sitting on the shelf because it doesnt rain isnt going to happen.......

[Cockerill]

The first national of the year is usually expected to be wet, and the chance of having a full dry/wet season is slim to none. I'm not blaming the shops here, but the manufacturer's for not expecting demand for the nationals. At least we got the tires in time, makes a change, hopefully next time they'll get the right ones in the right bags too, they only had 4 months to get that bit right.

[Lee]

Totally agree with you Tom, its not like the shops have to pay for the items there and then either, im sure the stock is long gone by the time the invoice is paid.

But to be honest Schumacher are just as guilty as Ballistic with the tire situation. They have still not got us the 'new' tire for the nationals, yet the old ones have been poor for at least 12 months if not more.

They are also selling us a faulty product, by there own admission (There making a new tire mould because the old one is rubbish), at full price, Surely that is not on, and possibly illegal too. Maybe they should reduce the price of the faulty tires until the properly moulded ones are available, maybe it will also make there release quicker?

Would you buy a pair of wishbones if you knew one had a crack in them?:confused:

Unfortunately there is no way to boycott the tires at nationals as we have to buy from of 2 poor companies. What can we do?

[Wraggy]

sorry playing Devils Advocate here,
but is not everybody in the same boat here ??
everyone had to run them so know one was at an advantage..

[losixxx]

Totally agree with you Tom, its not like the shops have to pay for the items there and then either, im sure the stock is long gone by the time the invoice is paid.



i suggest you really havent got a clue have you lee....!

[ashleyb4]

Totally agree with you Tom, its not like the shops have to pay for the items there and then either, im sure the stock is long gone by the time the invoice is paid.

But to be honest Schumacher are just as guilty as Ballistic with the tire situation. They have still not got us the 'new' tire for the nationals, yet the old ones have been poor for at least 12 months if not more.

They are also selling us a faulty product, by there own admission (There making a new tire mould because the old one is rubbish), at full price, Surely that is not on, and possibly illegal too. Maybe they should reduce the price of the faulty tires until the properly moulded ones are available, maybe it will also make there release quicker?

Would you buy a pair of wishbones if you knew one had a crack in them?:confused:

Unfortunately there is no way to boycott the tires at nationals as we have to buy from of 2 poor companies. What can we do?

Think thats a bit unfair lee i bet all the shops didnt know about the change in compound if they new im sure someone like chris would have mentioned it. Also if they are picking up 200 odd pairs of tyres in a box i dont think there going to go though them checking there the right rubber. There proberly not openned until the morning of the national.

sorry playing Devils Advocate here,
but is not everybody in the same boat here ??
everyone had to run them so know one was at an advantage..

Sort of Paul but if people had the tyres made out of the old softer rubber it might give them an advantage. Not like ide feel much difrence :p

A

[Wraggy]

Sort of Paul but if people had the tyres made out of the old softer rubber it might give them an advantage. Not like ide feel much difrence :p

A
Pidge ran the harder type compound all day !! oohh and where did he finish :p .. end of ..

[ashleyb4]

Thats why i said might :thumbsup:

A:p

[Lee]

Well i am sure i have been told by shop owners that they get a window in which to settle up in. Plus its not like its once a month that people buy tires, there are regionals every weekend all over the country also. So there really is no excuses.

This is getting off topic though:thumbdown:

Wraggy, you would think people were in the same boat but it was clear that some had blue fronts and some had greens (but both with green dots:lol:)

It has cost people a lot of money and im sure a lot of people will want to drop this round. Shame really because it was still a great weekend and was run suberbly by the kiddy and BRCA team:thumbsup:

[Lee]

Think thats a bit unfair lee i bet all the shops didnt know about the change in compound if they new im sure someone like chris would have mentioned it. Also if they are picking up 200 odd pairs of tyres in a box i dont think there going to go though them checking there the right rubber. There proberly not openned until the morning of the national.




A


Ash, i didnt mention a shop, i know its not there fault:confused:

[Wraggy]

Wraggy, you would think people were in the same boat but it was clear that some had blue fronts and some had greens (but both with green dots:lol:)

Lee the new harder fronts actually had no dot on them at all , it was only the header packet that said green on them ..

[Mossy]

I never had any issues with either Schumachers or Ballistic compounds.

[Body Paint]

I had no issues myself either as I had old stock from months ago but my front tyres were blaitantly softer than Tom C's fronts... so I have absoloutly no excuse for not being able to crack the top 20:( :lol:

[MattW]

Must admit i hadn't noticed any problem with the tyres - until someone pointed it out to me. Then went back and checked the tyres i had been running - and shock horror the fronts were harder than the rears - essentially all the tyres that i ran. Which does explain (to me at least) why my car felt much better in practice 1 - when i ran a set of tyres that i think were glued up sometime last year (maybe even Kiddy national actually!!!).

[Chrislong]

I found at the end of the day yesterday, my REARS to be far harder than my fronts. I just was not able to load my suspension up through a corner, the car span out asif something was broken. :cry:

[Cockerill]

sorry playing Devils Advocate here,
but is not everybody in the same boat here ??
everyone had to run them so know one was at an advantage..

Simple answer, NO! Not everyone had the same fronts so yes some had an unfair advantage. Saying that potentially one of the best drivers in the world could still win with them doesn't make it right.

I qualified 1st in the C on Blue fronts. I got hold of some used Green fronts for the final and my time would have put me in the middle of the B final. So should I feel aggrieved that I had the potential to make the B final on the correct tires. Bearing in mind I had made setup changes all day to gain more steering and the tires were already used twice, so the car wasn't perfect in the final, maybe I could have been in the A.

As I said before, I don't expect to make friends from this, but the situation is Bollocks and the TIRE COMPANIES need telling, not the shops they haven't done anything wrong.

[telboy]

I must say that the greens that I bought, and ran all day, did feel rediculously soft compared to others that I bought last year.

Shame I couldn't take advantage of the softness!:lol:

Let GRP in on the nats next year.

[losixxx]

Well i am sure i have been told by shop owners that they get a window in which to settle up in. Plus its not like its once a month that people buy tires, there are regionals every weekend all over the country also. So there really is no excuses.



like i said lee, might be worth you finding out fact's rather than assuming things.....some shops will have accounts other shops pay on collection

yes there are meetings all over the country most weekends doesnt mean the shops attend them all. most shops don't attend meetings and for those that do usually only in there own region plus for example with ballistic's if the rest of the year is dry would be stuck with 2k's worth of tyres on the shelf which people would then moan about because theyve gone hard as there old stock....

[Lee]

I suppose the shops are now stuck with a mix of greens/blues now, and without going through every packet we may see harder tyres creeping in for a while to come yet, its not like the end user gets an option to try before you buy:eh?:

[Lee]

like i said lee, might be worth you finding out fact's rather than assuming things.....some shops will have accounts other shops pay on collection

yes there are meetings all over the country most weekends doesnt mean the shops attend them all. most shops don't attend meetings and for those that do usually only in there own region plus for example with ballistic's if the rest of the year is dry would be stuck with 2k's worth of tyres on the shelf which people would then moan about because theyve gone hard as there old stock....


Im. sure most shops have a phone and a facility to take payment by a card, so people can purchase them from anywhere in the country, you dont have to be out every weekend to sell stuff. If a shop doesn`t have this facility then im sure they miss out on a hell of a lot of business, same with the account thing, id rather have 2k in my account for 30 days than someone elses, i also understand that with some distributors if you pay within a certain time you get further discount etc.

[Cockerill]

post deleted

[Borat]

Low Fiiivvvee!!

Bad tyre man!!!

In my country we shoot the Jew!!! Maybe you should shoot the tyre mans!!!


Ewwarr Weewarr!!!

Go go Tom Cockrill for stiring up a hornets nest!!!!:thumbsup:

[losixxx]

but the suppliers were at kiddy yesterday did no-one think of asking them!!

[Cockerill]

Unfortunately by the time had found out I was running Blue fronts the reps had gone home, shame really, it would have been nice to put them on the spot.

What's done is done, that can't be changed. What can be changed is the attitude of the companies and the future products, hopefully with this thread they will change. If not maybe we should look to other suppliers?

[losixxx]

they were there all day and still there when i left at 18.45 yesterday!

[Cockerill]

My Dad went looking for Dave Duggan and was told he had left. To be fair how would I as a racer know who the reps are? I have no dealings with them.

I have emailed both companies with a link to this forum, they now both have a chance to reply and also sort there tires out for the next national. Let's see if they do?

[losixxx]

the suppliers are Ballistic buggy, cml are the distributors

[Cockerill]

Brilliant, are those people I am looking for?:confused: I asked Chris Rowcliffe about it, he said its all down to CML now, who is CML? (ie. a person? My Dad went looking for Dave Duggan, He was told that he had gone). As I said they now have their chance to reply, lets see if they do?

[Cockerill]

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) says that goods should be as follows:

As described
- goods should correspond with any description applied to them.

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?file=ADV0043-1011.txt

I, along with many others, should be expecting our money back then? :confused:

[losixxx]

not really, the official description of BB greens is

BBT01 (Green compound) Suitable for wet grass conditions or astroturf

the tyres sold were suitable for the purpose, as it doesnt mention anything about being soft,medium,hard compounds so i doubt you would have a leg to stand on in court..

[Cockerill]

not really, the official description of BB greens is

BBT01 (Green compound) Suitable for wet grass conditions or astroturf

the tyres sold were suitable for the purpose, as it doesnt mention anything about being soft,medium,hard compounds so i doubt you would have a leg to stand on in court..

To me that means they should be the same compound as any other BB Green Compound tire. Ask any (expert) racer and they told me they were NOT Green Compound, therefore that is an Incorrect description. Green Compound was not even the same front to rear in my case. So YES the description is wrong.

PS. As someone who knows the Reps/Distributors, if you want to PM me the email addresses of the people who need to know about these issue's and will reply I will happily forward my emails to them.

[Lee]

I agree with tom here and feel for the other racers who paid there £7 ~ and didnt get what they were expecting:(

I also have to disagree with what you are saying losixxx, you seem to be saying it doesnt matter what is in the packet as long as the label and part number is right:confused:

Thats like buying a B44 and opening the box and an academy pops out, and taking it back to the shop and the owner saying "well it says its a b44 on the box so it must be a b44" I dont think you would be too impressed.

[losixxx]

[quote=Lee;115907]

I also have to disagree with what you are saying losixxx, you seem to be saying it doesnt matter what is in the packet as long as the label and part number is right:confused:

quote]


didnt say that at all m8, all i pointed out was the item description of the product

[Lee]

But you have to understand that what people expected and what they got were two totally different things:confused:

It might not even be the distributers fault, there could of been a mix up where they are bagged etc. Mistakes do happen if there are humans involved, i think peoples main concern is that it is sorted out for OZ:)

[Chrislong]

Chris Dyke, this must have been an acceptable situation for yourself. But for the majority of others it was not.

Please stop defending them, and allow them, whoever it may be (it isn't you), respond to the emails which have been sent, and then we will have an idea whats going on. I am not going to go making conclusions on something I am not informed enough about, so I just remained an unhappy customer.

Personally, I want to use something which is as described, so id rather run Green Schumachers and know that they are, rather then Green Ballistics and then I 'might' be faster, or my car 'might' handle like a pig on rollerskates. :cry:

When I buy a pan, I don't want a kettle, fair enough they both boil water and some people may accept that - but I asked for a pan.

[bigred5765]

i see what your saying chris
but as the fronts we all got were clearly blue compound and not green
and i compared so called greens with my blues in my box they were identical
and thats just plain wrong

[DaveG28]

Guys, I am slightly confused as to what the exact problem was?

By which I mean:

Were there green dots on none green tires?
Were there no dots but packaging that said green?

A couple of other points:

If they marked blues/pinks green then there's a strong case against them (very difficult to prove though!), but if the green is just inconsistent its much more tricky, as who decides "reasonable" variation

Schu changing the mold is almost certainly not an admittence of fault by them, legally it doesn't prove the old tires were bad!


Having said that, I do totally agree with Tom's point (didn't know ballistic had team drivers though?) and that its the mabufacturers to get annoyed with if necessary, not the shops! Unfortunately for the shops, it's them people should be asking for there money back from if anyone though, as its them who people have a contract of purchase with!

The whole thing is very :thumbdown:

[losixxx]

chris long, im not defending anyone, it didnt affect me as i didnt race as you know and never said it did, what i did do was correct someone who posted something that wasnt correct, ie shops don't pay for tyres straight away.

all i did chris was after someone started quoting trading standards was point out the FACT of how the tyres in question are advertised which if it came to any legal action would have HUGE outcome on the result....


i didnt once in any post on this thread defend or attack either the supplier or distributor in any way!???

[Cockerill]

As far as I am aware:

'Soft' Greens were sold in green labelled packs with green dots on.
'Hard' Greens were sold in green packs with no dots.

Now I would say that if it is a manufacturing fault then all tires would still be dotted.

BB is distributed by CML, CML have team drivers.

If there was no problem with current Schumacher tires they would not go to the expense of making a new mould. So to me that does confirm current tires have a problem.

The whole situation is not 'annoying' it's unacceptable. It also puts a downer on the whole national series unless the problem is sorted.

[Cockerill]

Does anyone think I have been out of order here by starting the thread or what I have said.

So far I have had only support and not one person comment that what I am saying is wrong/out of order.

By the way not only does it affect nationals, but also those doing regionals. The problem definitely won't be sorted for next weekends NE regional.

[Nick Goodall]

I remember years ago a batch of Schumacher Green's that came out a lot harder then they should have been but i don't think anything was done with it.....

Also last year i had a set of Green Ballistic rears and they were more like Blues, but that's going back almost a year now so is there a chance that the actual Manufacturer of the tyres may have changed the Green compound or something? :thumbdown:

To anyone that doesn't race (incl Judges in Court, Manufacturer of tyres) they probably wouldn't believe it makes any sort of difference on an R/C Car as much as we all know it does so it would be a really hard thing to prove - Not every packet of Cheese and onion crisps will taste EXACTLY the same so that's probably the same arguement you'd come up against with Tyres......

[DaveG28]

Sorry Tom, with Schu I mean they can easily claim doesn't prove fault, I totally see what your saying but they could say its down to a process change etc

[Cockerill]

Ok, lets move up a level or two.

At an F1 race all but 1 or 2 two teams have 'option' tires that are harder than everyone else's. Do you think they will say oh well tough luck? Or create an uproar and expect compensation for tires and expenses, along with accusations of cheating, etc.


Sorry Tom, with Schu I mean they can easily claim doesn't prove fault, I totally see what your saying but they could say its down to a process change etc

True, but I think everyone in Off-Road RC knows that this is not the case, maybe just do it as an incentive to keep the racers happy, seen as we have to run there tires to be competitive at nationals in the dry. I'm sure they've made enough money from racers over the years.

[Lee]

I see what your saying Nick, but a manufacture must work to certain tolerances, otherwise they could produce any old crap.

Its such a shame as tyres really are such an important item on the car:cry:

[bigred5765]

it might have been OK if both fronts and rears were the same stiffness/compound,
but all the rears we looked at were soft and a good 90% of the fronts hard,
there for unbalanced and making the car almost UN drivable at a competitive level,
as stated before Matty's car was a full 1/2 second a lap faster
with even greens front and back,
i still say the fronts at weekend weren't new hard green just wrongly bagged blue compound.

[Lee]

Did people pick this up on saturday in 2wd or was it just yesterday?

[Nick Goodall]

I see what your saying Nick, but a manufacture must work to certain tolerances, otherwise they could produce any old crap.

Its such a shame as tyres really are such an important item on the car:cry:

I do agree, but i'm just trying to see it from an outside point of view, to say they're a bit harder then normal probably is within these tolerances (legally speaking anyway) - It's a real pain in the backside as if a Tyre was to completely change over the winter and still be called the same it wouldn't have been picked anyway....

In F1 it obviously wouldn't be allowed, but we can't really compare this to F1 can we? Just think of the money involved for one thing.

[Cockerill]

The money is different but the situation would be the same. Just because we pay £7.50 a pair makes it alright?

The tires were not slightly harder they were as hard as blues.

[DCM]

shops don't pay for tyres straight away

thats incorrect, shops have various ways of getting stock, and things like tyres can be supplied in various ways, discounted and stuck with it or other ways.

[Wraggy]

but the top guys were on proper greens, which are a lot softer.
Sorry Tom not true ...

[jimmy]

we bougth three pairs from the same shop, two were green and one was 'dodgy green' and noticably harder.

[bigred5765]

well i check 5-6 of the top drivers none had the green/blue compound fronts on

[losixxx]

thats incorrect, shops have various ways of getting stock, and things like tyres can be supplied in various ways, discounted and stuck with it or other ways.


slight miss quote on what i said DCM

''what i did do was correct someone who posted something that wasnt correct, ie shops don't pay for tyres straight away.''

do anyone know what sort of payment option ALL the shops who supplied tyres to drivers at this national had, no!

[RCbob]

There is a positive side to this weekend though.

Nobody got kneecapped by an aero front bumper:thumbsup:

[Cockerill]

Sorry Tom not true ...

My post has been edited. Still doesn't make it right though.

[Chrislong]

I had harder REARS, and my fronts were all soft that I am aware of (I still have some in bags I haven't checked)

Chris, sorry mate, understand you correcting people making assumptions and you are rightly doing so.

I don't want or expect my money back, I don't want to fall out with any people or companies as CML are good people and it isn't there fault, they are just the middlemen, and so is everyone here, I just would like an acknowledgement of an issue existing and some word of it not continueing so I can have faith in the product.

This is toy car racing, I do it because I enjoy it, and I won;t enjoy it if I am running wrongly bagged tyres (if that is what happened). What I will do if I have no confidence in one product is use another product until I have confirmation that that issue has been dealt with. Id like to use GRP's but we can;t at nationals, except on the front (which I did, in 2wd)

Chris

[DaveG28]

Don't get me wrong Tom, I totally agree with you 100%, I'm just pointing out the potential legal side of it.

This is the downside of control tires, in an open market we could all switch to GRP or another supplier in protest and hit BB and Sch in the wallet where it hurts!

[Chrislong]

There is a positive side to this weekend though.

Nobody got kneecapped by an aero front bumper:thumbsup:

PMSL, your a legend.

[Wraggy]

My post has been edited. Still doesn't make it right though.
no i agree with you Tom , but just had to correct you slightly ;).

[MattW]

I think there were more than just "soft" and "hard" Greens in use over the weekend. I sampled a bit of a range from a fellow racer, and there was defenetly a "medium" in there as well!!!

[Cockerill]

This is the downside of control tires, in an open market we could all switch to GRP or another supplier in protest and hit BB and Sch in the wallet where it hurts!

Tire rules have been change mid-season before, albeit for a different situation, with TR32's a few years ago, 3a Raceway if I remember correctly. The drivers voted on it at Batley National at driver's briefing.

[DCM]

slight miss quote on what i said DCM

''what i did do was correct someone who posted something that wasnt correct, ie shops don't pay for tyres straight away.''

do anyone know what sort of payment option ALL the shops who supplied tyres to drivers at this national had, no!

it all depends on what arrangement that said shop had done with his sales rep or CML direct. There are options.

I won't go into details on the different types of arrangements, if someone like Dom wish to, up to him. It all depends on what the deal is between the shop and rep.

[Lee]

I dont want to speak out of term here but it would be good to have a safe option also, i know why we have the 2 different tyres ie to keep cost down and keep it simple but we already have the option of 2 componds per manufacturer and thats just for the rears. what real difference would throwing another "spike" into the ring really do apart from give the drivers an option.

We all pretty much know what tyre works before we get to the track thanks to forums etc so its not like we would turn up and find out the tyre we have bought doesn`t work.


Just an option and im sure it will not happen this season, but some consistency would be nice.

[dave g]

the tr32 was voted againt for holbeach i thnk tom since we couldnt get them at the time.

this isnt the first time that ballistic have dropped the ball regards tyres,i remember a few yrs ago when no onehad stock of them at kiddy when it rained one year.

you should all get a letter or petition signed up and sent in to the brca expressing your concerns about what tyres were chosen and demand another tyre choice..afterall its YOUR brca.

[Doomanic]

How or when the shops pay for tyres is immaterial. It is not viable to hold thousands of pounds worth of tyres in stock "just in case".

My tyres for Kiddy were all new stock from the distributors, delivered/collected last week.

There was a notable difference between front and rear for sure, but has it occurred to anyone that it may have been the rears that were too soft?
The rears I have in stock don't seem much different to pinks, but the fronts are definitely softer than blues.

Whatever the outcome of any investigation by the supplier, I hope it is sorted before Oswestry.

Incidentally, I only had one pair of fronts returned at the weekend and I gave the chap his money back.

[glypo]

Control tyres are such a stupid idea. Rallycross has no control tyres..... and that's hardly a struggling class.

Anyway, I would strongly urge people to refrain from commenting that certain companies actions are illegal. It show a lack of legal knowledge and could land you in trouble yourself (although I doubt very much in this case it would).

[Chrislong]

Control tyres are such a stupid idea.

I strongly dissagree with this statement.

When I attend a venue like Kiddy, which i can;t get to between nationals, I don't want to be carrying Schuey spikes, pins; BB spikes, pins; GRP's. I want to turn up with the control tyre, research the compound recommended and hit the track just working on setup, not tyre choice.

This is exactly why the BRCA have a nominated choice, and why I 100% agree with it being there.

[Lee]

Agree`d chris

(if everyone gets the same tyres ;))

[Lee Martin]

control tyre is a must have!!!!!!!!

trust its very different in Rallyx.............

so many people make tyres in it and our sponsered for tyres etc......
control tyre meetings are the only way to do business!

[Kopite]

control tyres are not a stupid idea at all. it saves us a lot of money

Andy Newbound had a set of the harder tyres too (and i think they were rears), he just took them out of the bag and instantly noticed that they were like a blue compound. At the time, i told him he was being gay, but i didn't realise that he was right!!

Maybe i was running the harder compound too. Balls, if i had the softer compound, i would've lapped Craggy :drool:

...but seriously though (:lol:), irrespective of whether Pidge had the harder compound and still drove immaculately on Sunday, this is pretty damn bad. If this is really the case, then i am very reluctant to buy any more BB's.

[Lee]

I agree pidge was awesome (not bad for a reserve;)) and if he was on the hard green then pidge has proven that you can polish a turd :thumbsup:

[Cockerill]

Control tyres are such a stupid idea. Rallycross has no control tyres..... and that's hardly a struggling class.

Anyway, I would strongly urge people to refrain from commenting that certain companies actions are illegal. It show a lack of legal knowledge and could land you in trouble yourself (although I doubt very much in this case it would).

10th isn't a struggling class. I've no problem with the Tire rules just the piss poor Quality Control that has ruined my meeting.

[DCM]

control tyres are best, saves you cash in the end, just got to ensure that the control tyres are 'correct'!

[rallyraid]

Reading this thread. I don't think that you can do much to resolve the situation for this year, other than to check your new tyres before you leave the shop.
Also make a proposal to the BRCA 1/10 committee for the AGM to have xxxx tyre as a control tyre for 2009.
Then go to the AGM to vote it in.
So get together and make your voice count..
Rich

[Nick Goodall]

RallyX cars don't work the same as 1/10th though so from what i've seen / been told you can get away with other tyres and it doesn't matter quite so much.

Can you imagine going back to the days of a set of Losi Pins per run front and rear? What a nightmare! Let along having to carry enough sets of every single possible combination!

[Lindsay]

Does anyone think I have been out of order here by starting the thread or what I have said.

So far I have had only support and not one person comment that what I am saying is wrong/out of order.

By the way not only does it affect nationals, but also those doing regionals. The problem definitely won't be sorted for next weekends NE regional.

No be we may be all using GRP.
Yes you have my full support on your thread [ but I could be accused of being bias]

[Wraggy]

I agree pidge was awesome (not bad for a reserve;)) and if he was on the hard green then pidge has proven that you can polish a turd :thumbsup:
thats not nice reffering to Pidge as a Turd :thumbdown::p

[Lindsay]

How or when the shops pay for tyres is immaterial. It is not viable to hold thousands of pounds worth of tyres in stock "just in case".

My tyres for Kiddy were all new stock from the distributors, delivered/collected last week.

There was a notable difference between front and rear for sure, but has it occurred to anyone that it may have been the rears that were too soft?
The rears I have in stock don't seem much different to pinks, but the fronts are definitely softer than blues.

Whatever the outcome of any investigation by the supplier, I hope it is sorted before Oswestry.

Incidentally, I only had one pair of fronts returned at the weekend and I gave the chap his money back.
WILL YOU ACCEPT TYRES THAT ARE GLUED ON WHEELS

[losixxx]

NO...

REASON BEING what do we do with all our old wheels/inserts and not exactly enviromentaly friendly getting a new set of wheels for every pair of tyres! i re-sue my wheels several times, keeps cost right down

[James]

..............................

[Kopite]

thats not nice reffering to Pidge as a Turd :thumbdown::p


LOL!! Interesting to watch the 3 legs of the A. To be fair, people were screaming up to Pidge, but then just not getting past him due to some seriously accurate and smooth driving from the gay boy.


...dare i say that Mossy's Cat looked pretty damned awesome, especially in the second leg!!

[Yardeeee]

My issue I had with BB tyres was that some of the rear greens were too soft... I am not so sure whether it is a case of the fronts being too hard, and whether the big difference between front and rear is caused by the rear softness.
some of my new BB green rears felt rather pink and I ran a set like that in leg 1 and 2 of the A on the saturday (2wd, at this point I wasn't using BB fronts) and my car was pants... leg 3 I switched back to a harder pair used earlier in the day and it was fine.

The variance in compound front to rear will have a big impact on balance regardless, and if the fronts and rears are labelled as the same compound they should be. Having said this, I had only 1 problem all weekend with the BB tyres as mentioned previously and will remain on the fence in this situation.

[Cockerill]

I've had a reply form Dave Duggan from CML.

CML had no idea of any problem with the compound or mis-packaging of BB tires. They have had no complaints about the tires previous to this thread, therefore have not know about this problem, however long it has been going on. CML do not make the tires, they are just the distributor so they will be taking the matter up with their suppliers.

I have asked when they expect the situation to be sorted out, hopefully before the next national.

Now all we need is the 'new' yellow mini-spikes from Schumacher in case its dry.

PS I have edited/deleted some of my posts that were too much. I am not out to slander/slag off any specific company, just improve the tires for our nationals so everyone has an equal chance.

[jimmy]

Hi guys, can I please ask people to only post the FACTS and from their own personal experience. No talk about conspiracys or other assumed shennanigans.
It's in no ones interest to upset the RC community (us racers) so please remember that before posting your thoughts.

[millzy]

[QUOTE=Cockerill;115931]Does anyone think I have been out of order here by starting the thread or what I have said.

So far I have had only support and not one person comment that what I am saying is wrong/out of order.

pm sent tom

[neiloliver]

I just read this very long thread from start to finish and now I feel i need a hug.. how depressing :cry:

If some tyres have been wrongly bagged then I hope the companies in question do the decent thing and swap them out.

Does anyone ever conduct shore hardness tests on tyres? someone must have this facility at their work? or college?

I would expect that the manufacturer must be able to show that a batch of tyres falls between certain specification limits, even if they dont do it all the time, they should be able to get it done if there is a question over material?

[Chrislong]

I have heard reliably that there is no specified specification for the rubber nominated as a compound. Therefore green could be anything, blue could be anything. etc... doesn;t make it right tho in my opinion..

Neil i think you are onto something. Id like to see manufacturers have a shore hardness specification for there compounds with stated tolerences.

This to me, does sound extreme - but if it restore confidence and means we get what we expect, then its good. As at the moment its the racers who are loosing out. Sure, few, if anybody will test them, but if anything like this does raise its grizzly head again then there is a measurement for the test to be conducted.

There are emails behind the scenes, and hopefully a resolution, so I am not going to run away with accusations or presumptions, that isn't fair on the vendors, the distributors, the shops or the people who represent the racers.

Chris

[DCM]

but the tyre compound is more complex than just shore hardness, but then it would be a good indicator of compound. I know Greens and Yellow Schumachers are different rubber completely, one is synthetic and other is natural and have distinct smells.

[racingdwarf]

I think thats a good point, what is green compound ballistic buggy or yellow schumacher? I think we have to expect the compound to change a little from batch to batch after all these are only rc car tyres, we are dealing with small companys selling to a very small market place there are not to many other places in the world use these tyres.

I think if you find two diffrent tyres in one pack thats not on and you should return them as for £7.50ish both tyres should be the same.

What we should get tho is tyres that are the right shape, have the correct amount of spikes and both tyres should be made of the same stuff. NOT what we have been getting in the past few months!

[Chrislong]

Hi DCM, you might need to explain to me, I appreciate you are likely to know far more than me on the subject of materials, but I am a fast learner, so please do...

What I meant is a spec from each manufacturer for each compound within. So:
Schumacher green =
Schumacher yellow =
Schumacher Blue
BB Pink =
BB Green =
BB Blue =

So we'd have 6 different values. But with a single acceptable tolerance of a set (sensible) value. This would be accross the mould tho, so a yellow Minipin is equivalent in shore to a yellow minispike (unless this cannot be done due to thickness or shape of the rubber?)

What are you saying? That the shore value cannot be measured? I am not talking about comparing Greens vs Yellows, but Schumacher Greens vs Shumacher Greens. It doesn't matter what the 6 individual values are, as long as each batch of tyres within can be quality checked against the specified shore rating.

This would be very good, as it stops all this shananigans and if a fault is discovered - the buck stops with the vendor. But with this means that this fault may never ever re-occur! :thumbsup: and if this is not possible, then my idea is void from the beginning.

It may be a bit extreme, bit like measuring the bend in bananas.... but it does matter.

Chris

[Lee]

I think the shore rating would be very hard to measure, the rubber is so thin and the spikes are too small to be consistent. Possibly we could get a data sheet from each batch which would actually give a percentage of whatever goes into making the tyre. The vendor must have these other wise they would not know how to make the tyre. If someone then suspects there is a fault then the tyre can be tested to see what it contains, this is the difficult bit, you would need a gas chromatograph, not something that could be done at the track but still very possible to get a result in an hour, from the tip of a spike;)

Like has been said its not just soft or hard tyres its the actual composition that affects its performance.

[glypo]

I think you are underestimating massively the complexity of material testing. You can't measure properties using tyres, you need test samples. This needs to be done within the companies themselves.

When tyres are made, test samples are also made using the same rubber. These compounds are of suitable size to use in material testing machines. A durometer (to measure shore hardness) is just one of many pieces of test apperatus required. The modulus, and also (perhaps surprisingly) the yield and tensile are quite important to in tyre dynamics.

Therefore the proper practice is to mould the testing samples, check their material properties and make sure they are in suitable tolerance with their own defined standards. This is also done at the end, and at any number of intervals that is felt appropriate during the batch. If any are found out of material tolerance, all tyres between that and the previous point should be scraped and the the problem rectified and the process continues.

This is how it should be done, and as you can see there is very little you can do as a consumer. Or anyone else, like shops for that matter. I will admit I've never used a durometer (shore), but when I've tested rubbers and soft polymers it has been using the appropriate version of the Vickers and Rockwell tests. However I'm sure the same limitations apply with the shore hardness, that you will need appropriate test samples and not the final product (tyre). Even things like environmental temperature and humidity can affect the materials, so tests need to be done under control conditions in the factory.

Who knows, the companies might already be doing this, but there could be mix-ups else where, such as in packaging as mentioned previously. Either way self testing tyres is not practical or possible, and would undoubtedly cause more problems then it solves. You wouldn't be able to get data from the companies to compare against either, the material properties define the compound, which is data sensitive to the company. If you were a tyre company, you wouldn't want the competition knowing your compound would you?

Therefore I would suggest people urge the companies to take into account better quality control if they are having problems, rather than self testing/regulation. And by the sounds of things one company is listening at least, with Schumacher developing this new tyre to improve quality. The BRCA is everyone's organisation, and perhaps even the threat of a change in control tyre could be enough to persuade a company to improve their practices.

[RogerM]

Jason, I could not agree more. Thanks for saving me the effort of typing a similar response to this thread.

I think that voting with your feet, or at least the potential threat to do so, is the only way of focing change in this sort of debate.

Lets also remember though that mistakes do happen and you should not judge people / companies by their mistakes but by their corrective actions to solve the problem.

[Chrislong]

Thank you Jason, that is very good information.

[Lee]

Just going slightly off topic here....... but if people knew that there would of been a problem with the BB tyres, ie blue available but no green fronts, would they still of been nominated as one of the control tyres? If the answer is yes then there is no problem but if the answer is no then why are we not using a better alternative?

[losixxx]

why are we not using a better alternative?

SUCH AS? and grp's werent an option as they only had 1 compound available.

[Col]

I've heard that the one compound works in most conditions...

[Chrislong]

I've heard that the one compound works in most conditions...

Hey Nick, I agree that I have found this, but they are not to everybody's liking at the moment. Basically, we need to be experimenting with them while at club and regional meetings, and build knowledge of where they work, especially when the additional compounds are released. :thumbsup: This is only step 1 ofcause.

[Lee]

Whilst speaking to various racers about the blue/green/no dot issue, they have said that the distributor is obviously sorry about the "mix up" or whatever happened and they did not know about it which is fair enough.

But it was also stated that there would be no further investigation which i totally understand, but i dont want to know the persons name who made the mistake all i want to know is that it wont happen again. Personally i feel that if there is a problem with a product then it should be an investigation as to find out what went wrong, is this not just standard quality control procedures?


If i have spoken out of term then please delete this post, i dont feel i have, but i will understand if the distributors do not like what i have said.

[Chrislong]

Hi Lee,
Its only Wednesday, 3 days have passed. The right people are informed and I think it is fair now to give it time for chance to act etc..

[Lee]

I understand Chris, and its something that wont happen overnight either. I just wanted to be as fair and diplomatic as possible but still ask the question of, if there is to be no follow up then how can we be sure that it wont happen again:confused:


I did not mean to have a pop at anyone:)

[Chrislong]

Your right, I don't want it to happen again either. I think we just need to give it time now, not too much time as Oswestry national is too late.

[Cockerill]

Copied from the BRCA website (http://brca.org/Sections/off_e_10/news/2008%20Tyre%20Issues%20Kidd.%20pdf.pdf). Hopefully everything will be sorted by Oswestry.

2008 -- 1/10th. Off-Road National Series – First Event Tyre Issues.

The Off-Road Section Committee are aware that certain ‘tyre issues’ encountered at the first event of the National series, held at Kidderminster over the week-end of April 19/20, were not entirely to the liking of some competitors.

Since last week-end, I have had contact with the companies involved in an effort to understand the cause of the problems and of course to gain confidence that the same issues will not arise at future events.
The issues centred on :-

1. Variation in the compound of Ballistic Buggy Green MiniSpike tyres.
2. The quality of Schumacher MiniSpike tyres, (expected to be supplied from new tooling).


1. – Ballistic Buggy tyres
After detailed conversations with the supplier (Ballistic Buggy) and the tyre distributor (CML), it is apparent that tyres of different compounds had been mixed and therefore incorrectly labelled in some cases. Unfortunately, the supply of tyres in readiness for the Kidderminster event were not despatched/received until the Thurs./Fri. prior to the event. Obviously tyres had to be shipped to the retail outlets quickly, leaving no time for anyone to evaluate if there was any error. As mixed compounds had not been previously encountered, there was no reason to suspect that a problem existed.

CML have discussed the situation with their supplier, who has agreed to recheck all their stock to ensure that tyres will be correctly identified at future events.

I wish to make it clear that the conversations with all parties concerned have been completely open with full cooperation given. Both CML and Ballistic Buggy know how important tyre compounds are to competitors, and between them are taking the required measures to ensure this does not happen in the future.

2. – Schumacher tyres
Schumacher have voluntarily issued the following statement, and have suggested that we inform our competitors of the situation regarding the new mould tool.

Off-Road Tyres – BRCA Off-Road Nationals
Schumacher committed to making new tools for the Mini-Spike tyres and of course we have tried our utmost to get those new mould tools on stream in time for the first National. Sadly, despite our best efforts this has not been possible for which we apologise. We have samples from the new tools but sadly these are not yet perfect. We are working very hard to get the tool modifications completed as fast as possible and I can assure you that no effort or expense is being spared to do this.

Best regards

Tim Walden
Executive Manager
Schumacher Racing Ltd.

I trust that the above information will restore confidence for the future events.

Paul Worsley. (Chairman, BRCA 1/10th. Off-Road Section).

[David Church]

I think this is a good response from all involved!!!!!!!

You have done good Tom, thanks mate:thumbsup:

[ben]

Yeh well done tom for getting the information on what has happened. Thanks :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Cockerill]

Not really anything to do with me, I just kicked up the fuss, Paul W got all the information.

[David Church]

Not really anything to do with, I just kicked up the fuss Paul W got all the information.


It was something to do with you, I never even knew there was a problem??? Doh.......

But you spoke out in a controlled-ish way and they have listened:)

[Chrislong]

But you spoke out in a controlled-ish way and they have listened:)

I like the "-ish" part, ha ha.

Its a good result, and although this is a rare case, it inspires confidence to know that we have good representation when cases like this arrise so long as the right people are emailed.

[Lee]

Thanks to Tom and PW, i think without Pauls help we would of struggled to get these answers so quickly.

Now, is there going to be any form of compensation from whoever has made the mistake?

Possibly if the hard tyres were returned then a refund could be given. Some may think this is unreasonable and the tyres are fit for purpose. But in reality they were not, what was in the packet was not what was stated on the outside. If you bought a motor and it only went half speed would you be happy?

[stuhurley]

Another question though. What do we do with tires (NIP) we already have?

Do you think CML will exchange them?

[RogerM]

Good to hear...

Well done Schumacher and Ballistic Buggy :D

[DCM]

I dunno if they need a pat on their backs for owning up to their mistakes, the mistakes should never of happened in the first place really. I would be impressed if they offered to replace badly moulded tyres and mismatched compound tyres though.

[dave g]

well its good that they have both replied and gave a reason as to whats happend,but...what happens at the next national where schumachers are the tire choice and they still havent sorted their moulds/tyres out??

[DCM]

it is good they have replied, yes, but that is the least that they could do, in admitting there is an issue, how they sort it out is more important though isn't it Dave.

Imagine buying a pair of shoes, getting home to find two left feet in there or different sizes, you would expect the shop to replace them on the spot or refund you your money, not just appologise and expect you to be happy.

We look at this as a hobby, but it is these guys bread and butter, they should be doing it right.