Lipo Batteries (yes or no)

[codieskid]

Just been reading about Lipo batteries here: http://www.teamorion.com/Products/Batteries/Lipo

Has anyone ever used any of these, if so are they any good and what are the advantages/disadvantges. They sound pretty good but will they fit in a zx-5 and what modifications would need to be made to get them to fit?

so are they lipo, go go or a lipo, no no? (sorry that was terrible)

Cheers

Trev

[Rob Fitzgerald]

This weekend I am going to be racing my Losi 2WD XXXCR with a Mamba Max brushless system in it powered by a TrakPower 4900 mah LiPo

I just tried it out in the street - VERY VERY silly and more than a little addictive.

The plan is to use just the one LiPo pack and just keep topping it up for each race. That's how I see LiPo could be a great thing for RC racing. Just to make it worse this is a Heads Up meeting (sort of Reedy style) so I will have to do 2runs on one charge at some point :o - 6 races in total !

Can you imagine a harder real world race test than that ?

[codieskid]

Keep us posted on how you get on, be interested to see how it copes.

[jimmy]

Should fit alright, you might have to shave a couple of "nodules" ( I like that word) off the battery bar though on the zx5.

The orion pack is just a nicely packaged pair of 3.6v cells. You can get the actual cells naked which is what I have driven before. They are a lot lighter than a normal battery pack (the orion pack is heavier of course) seemed ok to me from a performance standpoint.

[Rob Fitzgerald]

The test is almost unfair - but if it survives this it will survive anything.

Imagine if it works out though - no motor maintenance and just topping up the same battery all day.

Thats a lot of free time to watch the racing, eating chips and talking crap with your mates :D

Sounds good to me

[jimmy]

Rob, do they need a cool down period ? or in fact do they get hot ? Just wondering is they are supposed to be 1 run a day packs or if they can really be abused - which would be great.

[BenG]

Thats a lot of free time to watch the racing, eating chips and talking crap with your mates :D

Sounds good to me

all good except the crap talking bit:D;)

[Rob Fitzgerald]

They are quite happy for to try and break them - that's more or less why I have it - race it and hard.

I just tore it up and down the street for a few minutes (wheelies were good fun) and the motor was warmish bot no noticeable heat in the cells.

I will take it down the field later if I get time and see how it copes with the draggy grass.

No mention of a cool down period - I told their tech guys what I had planned and they said fine, go for it.

Obviously no one yet knows if I will be able to do 2 runs on one pack but the match races are 4 minutes so I am guessing I can.

This pack is rated for a 10 amp charge rate - yes TEN.

For arguments sake it will take 30 minutes to charge up to 80 ish % and then another 20 ish to top up - BUT - the voltage out is the same at 80% charge as a 100% charge so you don't need it 'peaked' as such.

[Chrislong]

Wow, impressed with the info so far Rob, sounds like the way forward. Although safety will be the deciding factor I am sure.

*Bang*

[DCM]

is it the gold ones Rob, as I understand, the harder you charge/use them, it realy drops the useable cycles on the cell. All great charging at 10A but it kills the cells.

Jim, I do beleive they do get warm, and need a little rest before charge, as like any cell, it is a chemical reactio producing the stored energy.

LiPo, if it is in a case, that surrounds and contains the cell and the undervoltage protector, plus maybe the balancer to, then great, if they are the ones the Heli guys use, then no. I think people misunderstan that a lot of LiPo cells are not rated for our power useage.

Rob, hope you are ballasting up the car though, as I STILL haven't seen a race test with a back to back, cell and LiPo but with the LiPo the same weight as the NiMH setup.

[Rob Fitzgerald]

I wont be ballasting the car up as I am an open race against 4WD cars so I already have my work cut out. My Losi is a bit porky anyway.

Yes Steve it's the gold one from TrakPower. They have done some hard testing and are just collating the data but it appears the high charge damage might not be what we assumed.

Re charging just used cells - I think the honest answer is that no one knows how they will work in cars used like this because no one (or very few) have actually tried it.

Remember we are not bashing here and a 5 minute race is onloy going to pull roughly half of the capacity out.

Anyway this is all theory - monday we will have some real race testing fact behind us.

[DCM]

Thats cool, I think LiPo will be the way of the future, it just needs, erm, toughening up and making secure so that dimwits won't stick them on their '30min riko charger' and sorts.

[jimmy]

Is the case around them partly for safety reasons ? This and the orion ones seem to have similar looking cases, normal cells dont have cases so whats the idea ?

[bigred5765]

Is the case around them partly for safety reasons ? This and the orion ones seem to have similar looking cases, normal cells dont have cases so whats the idea ?

its because they explode and set on fire:bom:
check it out death buy over charging
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3690260570423705609
and here buy physical damage
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7999636960714830130&q=lipo+battery+fire

[Rob Fitzgerald]

I think the case does two jobs (Colin Chapman would be proud)

It makes it easy to mount it in a RC car and it gives it some impact protection as LiPo isn't really keen on that.

Those videos actually p**s me off a bit - get a NiMh and connect it to the mains and see what happens. Smoke while filling the tank of your FG Marder and see how you get on.

If you are stupid you will get hurt - if you are stupid enough to wrongly charge a LiPo then chances are you suffocated yourself in the bag it came in on the way home on the bus anyway

[jimmy]

hahaha good point rob.

Yea I can see the impact protection thing, are they quite soft or something ? the ones Ive seen / used before weren't in a case and didnt seem very robust.. If they blow after getting punctured or something then yea - box that bugger!

I have seen the latest normal cells blow up and it wasnt pretty - in fact it was downright scary, but there is more hype and rumours spread about lipo since its new.

[albertobdq]

Hi everybody.

Here is Spain we had 2 cases of burning lipo, just in the pits while charging with proper chargers. The risk exist and it's bigger than risk you take while using Ni-MH.

Concerning their weight, well, if you are using a chasis layout with asimetrical distribution for batteries you'll have an issue with your weight distribution. Lipos are 100+ gr. lighter than Ni-MH, it's a huge difference for 1.5kg car.

Off course you'll have more power due to higher voltage and running time is also longer, but you'll need some device to switch off the car if voltage drops.

Ah, off course lipos are more expensive!

[DCM]

I think, for the more level headed of us, the LiPo gives no warning of it going pop, and when it goes, instead of just a bang (and in some cases, explosion) with a normal sub C cell, the LiPo will cell and ignite.

I know the Kokam cells are VERY good, and have video proof of the cell still stable whilst and AFTER it has been drilled.

Me, I shall wait I think, and see how things pan out before I go down the LiPo route.

[bigred5765]

I used to fly electric flight and trust me, they don't need to be abused to explode, and when they go, boy do they go. Like plane in flight one minute, next no plane, no nothing, just flames.

[andys]

i use to fly electric flight and trust me they dont need to be abused to explode, and when they go boy do they go. like plain in flight one minuet next no plain no nothing just flames


That is genuinely the first post on this forum that has actually made me laugh outloud. And the spelling just added to it ! I wonder if the same thing would happen in a buggy ??

At least with normal cells, when they go pop in your car, you don't lose the whole car...... with lipo, you may never see it again.

Nice one.

[bigred5765]

Grammarated the spelling thanks.

[Divefire]

Hi guys, just thought I’d weigh in here with the experience I’ve had running the Team Orion Lipo’s in a XXX BK.

Now I’m new at all this, this season’s been my first and my driving is fairly rubbish, so the Orion pack has taken a pounding in my car, and, it’s fine. Frankly it’s been a joy to use, I charge it up the day before and top it up after each run. Well basically it goes like this, finish heat, grab car, run to the pit, take out battery, plug it into the charging gear, set it off, go marshal.

It’s usually topped up in about half an hour at most and ready to go. I’ve not had an issue with them going flat, or running out of charge, or any signs of going boom either. Even managed to get it wired the wrong way once (not for anything more then a second) and it still works fine. So yeah it’s fairly robust. Also I charge at 4 amps, from what I understand you don’t get any benefit from charging them at a higher amp rate other then a faster charge time. It comes off the track warm, but cools down while it charges, which is nice.

As for cost, at £90 it was the same as three club packs of nihms and when you take in to account that it should stay at 80% capacity for 1000 cycles, well I think it’s better value.

I have to admit brushless and lipo are what made me take the plunge to go racing finally, takes a lot of the effort out of it. Yes lipo need to be handled correctly but I don’t think that’s any different to how nicads were when they were first being used many moons ago.

So yes, be careful with them, it’s a new technology for us and I can only recommend the Team Orion pack from experience, but I think for the fact it cuts down on amount you have to spend on batteries at the very least it’s the way forward.


Mat

[DCM]

my biggest concern is purely the amount of 'open' and not enclosed cells, like the Team Orion, and there seems to also be a very broad spread of quality.

If LiPo were to be allowed then the rules would have to be farely tight, and maybe some test to be carried out on samples, like impact, peircing etc.

[Divefire]

I agree with you DCM, the open packs aren’t the best of idea for racing use, you never know when a random 9 year old is going to spear your car side on, after all… (not at all bitter about personal experience, at all…).

I hope the BRCA does look at sanctioning them, though as you say within strict guidelines. Though I suspect at the end of the day it will come down to if the insurance company will let them be covered under the personal liability cover. No reason it shouldn’t be, but you never know.

[Ewar]

The main thing that would put me off at the moment is..

Ive got a pred and havent seen any " Saddle Lipos "

Are they available??

[Divefire]

So far a saddle arrangement hasn’t been put together, certainly not in a hard packaged unit at least. However the original layout of the Predator was with a stick pack down one side of the car, you might be able to retrofit that lay out if you wanted. But, and it’s a big but, I’ve never seen the original in the flesh as it were, just the coverage in the magazines years ago, so you’d want to talk to the read Pred experts to know if it was doable or even recommended.

[Northy]

I have heard of a saddle Lipo but never actually seen a picture.

G

[buzz]

my answer to lipos, big no no! :mad:

sorry the question wasnt answered earlyer in the thread but i havnt been online for ages! :o

[bert digler]

yes as long as they dont explode as they have a nack of doing when over discharged or wet. the go like a distress flare hahaha oh ond they dont fit saddle cars hahaha pity:D

[jimmy]

Since they are 2 cells, it shouldnt be hard for someone to make a saddle pack in a case so its safe. I guess the lipo's are where brushless was a couple of years ago, mostly the realm of the "basher".

[DCM]

I beleive a 7.4V 4800mAh is made from 4 cells, two pair of parallel cells then put in series, parallel doubles the capacity then the series double the voltage, so in theory it is doable..... although that leaves configurations like the X-5 out in the cold.

[sefton]

Do they need a special charger or would a Nosram sirus do the job?

[ashleyb4]

You will need a special charger like an orion advanatge the newer one like mine.
I dont like the idea of lipo Our club secutery works for a battery company and knows alot about diffrent companys and he thinks ther unsafe and dangerous.

A

[jimmy]

NiMhs are so much safer

http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/durham110606/bigimages/durham04.jpg

[sefton]

suppose we will now more next season!

[jimmy]

I have done a bit of reading up about LiPo since I'll be reviewing a pack - and I think they need common sense and a bit of care.

The videos you might see on youtube (and there are loads) of lipo packs blowing up, are all good and well if you like hype. But wire your nimh pack up to a 12v and hold it in your hand (no, dont) and tell us how safe nimhs are when you have no hand left.

[jimmy]

Surely they can make these packs in saddle formation ? so the X5 might not be out of luck.. rebalance it properly with lead (which it would probably need anyway to bring it back up to weight)

[sefton]

Would they not have to past the very same saftly tests as NIMH's?

Remember all the hype about brushless speedo's last year!

[jimmy]

people love a bit of hype and scare mongering.
I've no doubt these packs need respect, but that goes for sticking your fingers in the gearbox too. (ooh, I might use that line later and quote myself)

[sefton]

what are these cheaper Orion lipo's about? are they just lower capacity?

also what can this advantage charger to that others can't (except the obvious)!

[Chris Doughty]

Surely they can make these packs in saddle formation ? so the X5 might not be out of luck.. rebalance it properly with lead (which it would probably need anyway to bring it back up to weight)


http://www.maxamps.com/contents/media/l_4000LipolySaddlePack.jpg

[sim]

what are these cheaper Orion lipo's about? are they just lower capacity?

also what can this advantage charger to that others can't (except the obvious)!

I think the 3200 mah Orion lipos are 2s1p or 2 (3.7volt 3200 mah) cells linked in series. The old 4800 Orion platinum lipo are made up of 4 (3.7volt 2400 mah) cells linked in 2s2p (2 parallel sets of 2 cells in series, if that makes sense).
The newer 3200 one should be lighter and since the two actual cells take up less space than the four older ones inside their respective casings, the new box can afford to have those ridges on them to sit better into slotter chassis. I'm guessing that is the idea.

Also, 2s1p batteries might need to be balanced less often. Not sure about this. Any plane or heli guys know about this kind of thing? Do 2 cells in series still need balancing?

[neiloliver]

From my point of view (as the technical manager of a company that manufacturers lithium polymer cells), all batteries consisting of lithium polymer cells should have a protection circuit for both over chare and over discharge. The cells should also be inside a plastic case to protect them from physical damage. The "hobby" argument does not work for this technology.. it is far too volatile.

Lithium polymer cells (like lithium ion cells) do not like being overcharged. They contain highly active materials and a non aqueous flammable electrolytes Charging cells >4.2V can be dangerous and this is what can cause them to explode during charge. Over discharge is more of a performance issue rather than a safety one.

I think that high drain cylindrical lithium ion cells would be a better long term move rather than lithium polymer. A cell size of 26 dia and 70mm length is emerging as the new standard for high drain lithium polymer cells - these are 3.7V and 3Ah, capable of 30A drain rates - they are currently being designed into professional power tools (the market that drove the development of the high drain capable NiMH cells we are using today)

And to cap all of this.. if you modify any lithium ion or polymer battery in any way.. you CANNOT take it upon an aircraft.

I will stick with GP4300SCHR for now... although i am currently working on a design for a 24V 3Ah lithium ion battery for power tool applications... no that will have a kick!

Neil

[yin]

just for all the with the horror stories of lipo.what do most of us walk
around with in our pockets.
mobile phones,what do you think powers them.:wtf:

[albertobdq]

Not me, I still used Ni-Cd on my Nokia 3210.

[neiloliver]

Your mobile phone has a single cell battery which has a protection circuit fitted. You mobile phone regulates that charging voltage and current for you when you plug the little 5V wall brick into the mains... same with your ipaq pda etc etc... what we are talking about with RC cars is a far higher energy cell, with little or no protection, being charged and discharged at high rates.

[albertobdq]

Yeah, for sure, tell Dell about lipo batteries... :p Really useful that you can use your laptop to light a fire... just in case you take it to the forest and forget the matches at home.

[neiloliver]

The Dell issues were not Lithium Polymer batteries, they were Lithium ion Cylindricals.. but those incidents do show how the cells can fail under worst case conditions. I am not saying that lithium polymer is a bad thing for RC.. all things fail.. and all things will fail badly given a high enough population.. from your kitchen toaster to the space shuttle... sh1t happens, but with lithium ion and lithium ion polymer, the abuse that RC cars (and their owners) increase the chance of this happening, and the outcome can be 'worse' than with NiCd and NiMH.... but lithium ion polymer is here to stay in one form or another...

N

[andys]

Just ran a Lipo in my touring car for the first time and i'm totally sold.

The battery never became hot, no even warm. I put it on to charge Immediatley after each race and everything worked fine. The car was much faster than with my best batteries and the speed and punch as still there at the end of each race. All in all i'd rather have all the convenience and benefits this technology has for the buggies outdoors next season. Anyone know when / if they will be allowed in the Offroad regionals ? personally i'd rather spend my cash on Lipo's now than NiMH cells.