Superstox Grumble

[Apricot Slice]

Superstox.
It looks great but when you try to install the electrics there are problems.
There is little choice but to have the esc sticking out beyond the chassis.

If i go racing without sorting this problem out I just know someone is going to head directly at an apex flat out, t-bone me and smash the esc to smithereens. Sod's Law guarantees it.

I had an idea of putting the ball joints on the top side of the hub arms and mounting the low profile servo upright and between the front wheels. This will give loads of space for everything!
Unfortunately there is a big square hole where the mounting posts would go.

So, I have a choice of making a bumper bar to protect the overhanging esc or cut a whole new chassis without a hole in it.

I know there are some Schumacher guys on here...
I would be prepared to buy another chassis without a hole in. I know you are not going to disrupt your manufacturing to humour a single customer. That would be mad. If however you felt so inclined during a spare moment, I would really dig it big time if you could send me a DFX of the chassis so I can machine a new one.

Cheers
Apricot

[DCM]

Try asking here https://www.facebook.com/groups/336445139755237/

[mark christopher]

If you that worried about your Speedo stick it on top of your servo, I have seen no damage to the cars I have seen race including both of mine. Sorry but your Speedo will get damaged if there was chassis under it, bumpers etc are higher than a chassis in a pile up.

[RudolfXC]

Can you put the speedo stuck to the chassis on one edge?

[Chequered Flag Racing]

Superstox.

If i go racing without sorting this problem out I just know someone is going to head directly at an apex flat out, t-bone me and smash the esc to smithereens. Sod's Law guarantees it.



Happened to mine. Knocked to caps of the esc but was able to repair at home.

[Chequered Flag Racing]

Try asking here https://www.facebook.com/groups/336445139755237/

Now that'a a :cool: link :thumbsup:

[Apricot Slice]

Thanks for replies guys. Wow, loads of interesting stuff on the Facebook page!

I could stand the esc on end or mount it on top of the servo but I'm too much of a tidy freak for that.

I will scan the chassis and re draw it rather than trouble anyone for the original.
When its made I'll post a pic.

[mark christopher]

you could put it in a potting box from maplin and wrap it in cotton wool :woot::thumbsup:

[DCM]

A simple resolution is to make a square a bit bigger than the ESC, stick that to the chassis then stick the ESC onto that?

[stegger]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a207/cheshiremodelcars/IMG_0992.jpg

I mounted mine initially as in the picture, but have gone to the side as per standard due to air flow !

[Apricot Slice]

Yeah that would sort it a bit. Don't know why Shumacher didn't make the chassis stick out a bit where the esc has to go.

in order of preference..
Reposition the servo. ((low profile) remake chassis)
Machine a bumper. (probably use some existing holes)
Do what you said.
Just have it sticking out and drive like a pro. (not possible)
Mount on edge or on top of servo.

I think I'm just going to remake the chassis or I'll never be satisfied.
Unfortunately I have to put new rails and ball screws on the cnc router at work first.
Tapping them holes in the rails sure did give the taps a beating today. Hard stuff.

[Apricot Slice]

I can see how the air flow could be a problem.

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/IMG_0918.jpg

This is the plan.

[russmini]

Mine all fits no problems in the space between the steering turnbuckles and LiPo. Hobbywing Justock esc, Spekky SR3500 rx, KO 2413 servo and a MRT PT mounted on top of the servo.

No heat issues etc etc.

:thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

How are you guys getting yours hot and needing more air flow? My hobbywing 1s runs nce and cool at 65 mpr.
Why not use a fan for air flow?

[Apricot Slice]

What do you think would be best for chassis. 2.4mm thickness or 3.2mm?

[mark christopher]

What do you think would be best for chassis. 2.4mm thickness or 3.2mm?

Do you. Want to protect the Speedo or alter the handling?

[neallewis]

I really don't see what you will achieve making a new chassis mounting you servo as you describe?

The car works great out of the box, with low-profile or 1/12th servo mounted in the stock position. There is plenty of room to mount the radio gear on the chassis without it hanging over the side. just look at the many examples of other peoples setups here or on the gt12 facebook group. mount your receiver in the position described in the manual, up front. This leaves plenty of space to mount the speedo without it hanging over. If it really hangs over that much, it must be a jumbo sized unit, and i'm sure it would be cheaper to replace it for a new £50 1S unit, rather than going to the time, cost and effort to remake the perfectly good chassis that comes with the kit.

[Apricot Slice]

Do you. Want to protect the Speedo or alter the handling?


Is that a rhetorical question? Presumably you are suggesting that 2.4 thickness would be best.

When I was wondering about chassis thickness I had in mind a vision of an old Mardave Mini (the one with no suspension at the back) doing wild bouncy flexy things.
In my mind, a rigid chassis is best because the part that you have control over is the spring. Anything else doing the bouncy business mars the results of adjustment. Although in practice, something more flexible may be better.. I am unsure.
My guess is that Schumacher have got it right.
I have ordered a piece of each thickness so may as well try both.

[Apricot Slice]

I really don't see what you will achieve making a new chassis mounting you servo as you describe?

The car works great out of the box, with low-profile or 1/12th servo mounted in the stock position. There is plenty of room to mount the radio gear on the chassis without it hanging over the side. just look at the many examples of other peoples setups here or on the gt12 facebook group. mount your receiver in the position described in the manual, up front. This leaves plenty of space to mount the speedo without it hanging over. If it really hangs over that much, it must be a jumbo sized unit, and i'm sure it would be cheaper to replace it for a new £50 1S unit, rather than going to the time, cost and effort to remake the perfectly good chassis that comes with the kit.

Its a regular sized esc and it does not fit. It just doesn't.

[mark christopher]

why not just buy the new core 1s speedo, small and will fit ok, and only £46 from mbmodels

[Apricot Slice]

why not just buy the new core 1s speedo, small and will fit ok, and only £46 from mbmodels

bit of GRP, £5

[mark christopher]

Time cutting, making it spot on and your speed is still in the same place for impact, the bumpers are higher than the chassis as I said

[Apricot Slice]

I do this sort of thing for a living so its more fun than hassle.
It would really bug me seeing the speedo vulnerable hanging over the side every time I look at it. And not looking isn't an option.

If you were god and had to live as a man, would you really have put the nuts on the outside? Na, didn't think so :)

[woody_woody]

i recently bought and installed the core 1s speedo , it fits perfect on the chassis , before this i used a novak gtb 2 , that did have overhand but not enough to frett about it getting damadged ......just go with the kit reccomendation , you will be fine

[mark christopher]

I do this sort of thing for a living so its more fun than hassle.
It would really bug me seeing the speedo vulnerable hanging over the side every time I look at it. And not looking isn't an option.

If you were god and had to live as a man, would you really have put the nuts on the outside? Na, didn't think so :)
took some quick pics and i really think your going over board, car taking the hit has no body, car hitting has a foam bumper and body that would hit speedo EVEN if there was chassis protruding from the speedo :confused:

[Apricot Slice]

I Like the adjustable camber arrangement.

[mark christopher]

It's not for camber,camber is adjusted by different spacers under the lower plates, the turn buckle was something I added to see if it did what I thought not yet tried it out. But that front end is made for oval.

[Apricot Slice]

I didn't notice the trailing 'oval' arms.
Whats the idea behind the turn buckle?

[mark christopher]

Just wondered if it would do anything, not tried it yet

[snail speed]

I think the best option to prevent the esc hanging over the edge it to buy a mardave. I do see where mr slice is coming from. It does look a bit over the edge. 2.4mm would be enough i think

[mark christopher]

I think the best option to prevent the esc hanging over the edge it to buy a mardave. I do see where mr slice is coming from. It does look a bit over the edge. 2.4mm would be enough i think


ok how many tc cars do you see with the motor/lipo hanging off the edge, and how many actually get destroyed?

[Apricot Slice]

Mr Chequered Flag Racing's esc got destroyed.

[snail speed]

Granted the speeds are lower but having a esc only held on with just over half fixing it down any one would be worryed. The difference is a lipo is secured with tape and mountings. also a motor is screwed down. So they arnt going to move. To finish first you first must finish.

[mark christopher]

Granted the speeds are lower but having a esc only held on with just over half fixing it down any one would be worryed. The difference is a lipo is secured with tape and mountings. also a motor is screwed down. So they arnt going to move. To finish first you first must finish.
well im not worried bout mine, but then i use good tape! if your going to take a hit to take out my speedo the car is going to be busted more than the speedo.

[mark christopher]

Mr Chequered Flag Racing's esc got destroyed.
and i doubt having grp all the under it would have stopped it! the bumpers ride higher than the chassis!

[Apricot Slice]

and i doubt having grp all the under it would have stopped it! the bumpers ride higher than the chassis!
The further something sticks out, the greater the chances of it getting pinged off or broken. No two ways about it.

[Apricot Slice]

Think I will make a number of other adjustments while I'm at it.
Figure the battery could be moved back 5mm or so. Get rid of unused holes. New camber straps to give clearance for the servo mount posts. Not bother with area clearances for sub c cells, don't need them. Probably reshape the outer edge of the chassis. Shrink down the battery area a tad to fit my lipos nice n snug. Also was thinking about an alternative to Velcro.
CAD and CAM are such great toys.

Anyone know what gives the cleanest cut on laminates. Maybe a tungsten carbide straight flute cutter?

[manic]

I would do some with what ever cuts it ok then figur out exactly what uou want then get it done by water jet cuttinh or even that rc cnc company ..

Manic

[Martyn (Bomber)]

No problem with electrics here, even with 2s saddles :thumbsup:

http://s19.postimage.org/hsxk7lnyq/IMG_1739.jpg

http://s19.postimage.org/653id1ytu/IMG_1741.jpg

[Rat Monkey]

Deleted, duplicate

[Rat Monkey]

No problems here with my 1s installation either, even room for my voltage booster :thumbsup:
can't waith till 18th Sept when I get to run her in anger :D

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/Jim_The_Jedi/SupaStox/th_IMG_1922.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/Jim_The_Jedi/SupaStox/?action=view&current=IMG_1922.jpg)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/Jim_The_Jedi/SupaStox/th_IMG_1923.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/Jim_The_Jedi/SupaStox/?action=view&current=IMG_1923.jpg)

[BeachBuggyPhil]

Wow, racing is going to be interesting with this mix of cars.

[terry.sc]

Anyone know what gives the cleanest cut on laminates. Maybe a tungsten carbide straight flute cutter?
The cleanest cut will be with diamond cutters if you have them, but only of use if you are doing a production run. A tungsten carbide straight two flute cutter is perfect for the job and gives a clean edge, and will cut for some time before wearing out. Any sort of spiral flute will just rip the edges of the fibreglass. Use a fairly fast feed as too slow and the grp can edges burn.

Cooling is not absolutely essential. Ideally you use air for cooling, but that throws the fibreglass shards into the air and not good at all for your lungs. Water cooling helps preserve the cutters.

[Apricot Slice]

The cleanest cut will be with diamond cutters if you have them, but only of use if you are doing a production run. A tungsten carbide straight two flute cutter is perfect for the job and gives a clean edge, and will cut for some time before wearing out. Any sort of spiral flute will just rip the edges of the fibreglass. Use a fairly fast feed as too slow and the grp can edges burn.

Cooling is not absolutely essential. Ideally you use air for cooling, but that throws the fibreglass shards into the air and not good at all for your lungs. Water cooling helps preserve the cutters.

Thanks for the response on cutting Terry. Much appreciated.
It will be a lot less worrying now. :thumbsup:

[Apricot Slice]

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/Dave3.jpg

so far

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/Dave31.jpg

see a bit more clear whats going on in this one

The cross piece that goes from pod to post is a damper.

[Apricot Slice]

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/dave4.jpg

getting there. got rid of that velcro

[mark christopher]

if you can do a battery strap for the kit chassis layout, that would sell!

[sosidge]

I hope your roll damper idea is according to rule 6.2.1 of the BRCA GT12 construction rules.

Although my reading of the rules is that every car on the market already breaks rule 6.1 so perhaps some more thought should have gone into the wording of it.

[mark christopher]

I hope your roll damper idea is according to rule 6.2.1 of the BRCA GT12 construction rules.

Although my reading of the rules is that every car on the market already breaks rule 6.1 so perhaps some more thought should have gone into the wording of it.
6.2.1 = damper tube is ok as it does not have seals to reatain the oil!

your going to need to explain what you mean by 6.1

[Apricot Slice]

I hope your roll damper idea is according to rule 6.2.1 of the BRCA GT12 construction rules.

Although my reading of the rules is that every car on the market already breaks rule 6.1 so perhaps some more thought should have gone into the wording of it.

"separate dampers are only allowed on the rear suspension."
It is worded a little oddly. What is a damper if its not separate. It seems to suggest that a damper, if it is not separate is allowed on the front. But the front is not mentioned.
Schumacher's idea of a damper is some o-rings. So maybe 'seperate' in this context means 'more than one'
Technically the inclusion of the word 'separate' ruins the sentence.

I think it is safe to interpret 6.2.1 as 'Dampers are only allowed on the rear suspension'

Whats wrong with rule 6.1?

[mark christopher]

"separate dampers are only allowed on the rear suspension."
It is worded a little oddly. What is a damper if its not separate. It seems to suggest that a damper, if it is not separate is allowed on the front. But the front is not mentioned.
Schumacher's idea of a damper is some o-rings. So maybe 'seperate' in this context means 'more than one'
Technically the inclusion of the word 'separate' ruins the sentence.

I think it is safe to interpret 6.2.1 as 'Dampers are only allowed on the rear suspension'

Whats wrong with rule 6.1?
6.2.1 is to stop dampers that are oil filled and sealed such as the off road touring shocks

[Apricot Slice]

6.2.1 is to stop dampers that are oil filled and sealed such as the off road touring shocks

Yeah, the straw type.

The rules aint worded perfect like but as clear enough.

[supastoxrc]

the best plan is buy a gm75 esc this fits where it should with out hanging out of the car nice small foot print mate

[sosidge]

6.1 "The chassis may not include any features designed to allow the front and rear axle to rotate along the central axis of the car relative to each other. "

Well, they all have mounts on them to allow for axial rotation in the rear suspension, so somewhat curious wording. Any rule that requires a note after it to explain the intention hasn't been worded very well... As far as the intention being to remove chassis flex, well, ALL components flex, just some flex more noticeably than others.

It will be interesting to see to what extent the class becomes dominated by scratchbuilt cars, or cars built from a hybrid of Mardave, Schumacher and older 12th circuit parts. I'm sure the BRCA will have some justification for allowing scratchbuilding, but my gut feeling is that the CWIC (http://www.oople.com/forums/www.cmcc.org.uk) series has got it right by restricting their GT12 class to Supastox cars ONLY and Schumacher options ONLY.

And don't get me started on the THREE "equivalent" powertrains...

[mark christopher]

But they don't pivot on the centre line relative to each other?

If they have suspension front and rear, then there not relying on chassis flex for suspension?
Mardave and ss should run side by side and. Brca have said if a scratch build wipes the floor it will discouraged

[Apricot Slice]

6.1 "The chassis may not include any features designed to allow the front and rear axle to rotate along the central axis of the car relative to each other. "

Well, they all have mounts on them to allow for axial rotation in the rear suspension, so somewhat curious wording. Any rule that requires a note after it to explain the intention hasn't been worded very well... As far as the intention being to remove chassis flex, well, ALL components flex, just some flex more noticeably than others.

It will be interesting to see to what extent the class becomes dominated by scratchbuilt cars, or cars built from a hybrid of Mardave, Schumacher and older 12th circuit parts. I'm sure the BRCA will have some justification for allowing scratchbuilding, but my gut feeling is that the CWIC (http://www.oople.com/forums/www.cmcc.org.uk) series has got it right by restricting their GT12 class to Supastox cars ONLY and Schumacher options ONLY.

And don't get me started on the THREE "equivalent" powertrains...

The note after the rule is there to be informative and it adds clarity.
Some pan cars have a narrow part on the chassis that acts as suspension.
The rules are saying that this type of suspension is not allowed.
Suspension parts that work as they do on Mardaves and Superstox are one of the points that define the class.

Scratch built cars and cars that have diffs and other mods will dominate GT12.1
Standard cars in GT12.2

The various motor/battery options are well reasoned as are all other parts in the rules.
If something in there does not seem to make sense, be assured that a multitude of people with experience and expertise have chewed it over and come up with the best.

[Apricot Slice]

refined it a bit.
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/dave5.jpg

[russmini]

if you can do a battery strap for the kit chassis layout, that would sell!


Mark, it's down on paper... and template sorted, and i have to say, it's looking pretty Good!

Will try to finish the first 'prototype' in a couple of days. I'll let you all see it in situ and i'll be able to test properly in race mode on Friday night.

RCDesigns - Leading the way again... :D

Updates may appear here first - http://www.facebook.com/pages/RCDesigns/217424501604891

[lochness42]

refined it a bit.http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/dave5.jpg
Looks great

[Apricot Slice]

Looks great

Thanks Pavel.

[russmini]

RCDesigns answer to those unruly Velcro Straps...

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i129/russmini/SupaStox%20LiPo%20Hold-In%20System/IMG_0061.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i129/russmini/SupaStox%20LiPo%20Hold-In%20System/IMG_0056.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i129/russmini/SupaStox%20LiPo%20Hold-In%20System/IMG_0063.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i129/russmini/SupaStox%20LiPo%20Hold-In%20System/IMG_0062.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i129/russmini/SupaStox%20LiPo%20Hold-In%20System/IMG_0059.jpg

Much neater and nicer than the original system.

Quick and Easy to put the LiPo in and take out of the SupaStox and adds a definite nice bit of 'Bling', whilst being very Practical.

:D

[Apricot Slice]

yeah that velcro sure does pick up the carpet fluff

[Chequered Flag Racing]

@ Apricot Slice

If you on FB why not share your drawings on there so those that don't use o0ple can see them here? GT12 Circuit Cars (UK) (https://www.facebook.com/groups/336445139755237/397926153607135/?notif_t=group_activity#!/groups/336445139755237/)

[russmini]

RCDesigns LiPo System now available to order.

For details see http://www.facebook.com/groups/336445139755237/

If you're not on FB, shout, i can PM, e-mail you all the details.

Thanks Russ.

[Apricot Slice]

The cleanest cut will be with diamond cutters if you have them, but only of use if you are doing a production run. A tungsten carbide straight two flute cutter is perfect for the job and gives a clean edge, and will cut for some time before wearing out. Any sort of spiral flute will just rip the edges of the fibreglass. Use a fairly fast feed as too slow and the grp can edges burn.

Cooling is not absolutely essential. Ideally you use air for cooling, but that throws the fibreglass shards into the air and not good at all for your lungs. Water cooling helps preserve the cutters.

Finally got round to cutting some bits. Just used a straight flute engraving bit with a jet of air blasting on it. Cuts like butter.

[Apricot Slice]

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/no1.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/no2.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/no3.jpg

After much measuring and thinking and taking into account what I can build and what is practical to build I came up with this.


It has a Mardave pod on the back. Which I think is very hard to beat in terms of being robust and good geometry.
The front end is just a Schumacher. Looks a bit different but essentially the same.
Battery is quite a bit further back and the area for the esc is accommodating.

Have made two of them and me and a friend will be trying them out soon. (if out club accepts GT12 rules)
Its kind of a prototype stage and we will be trying to evolve it into something better.

[joker]

if your having trouble fitting stuff in and keeping it cool why not do what i did?

[Apricot Slice]

if your having trouble fitting stuff in and keeping it cool why not do what i did?

because I have thrown my Schumacher chassis in the bin. And I prefer green to black.

[Martyn (Bomber)]

if your having trouble fitting stuff in and keeping it cool why not do what i did?

How does it handle in that config ???, my 2s SupaStox is a BEAST! and I can not get it to grip roll what so ever, even with a 13.5 :D

[mark christopher]

because I have thrown my Schumacher chassis in the bin. And I prefer green to black.
looks yellow to me?

[Mr Eccleston]

If the club adopts the GT12 rules would your car be legal having used parts from both Mardave and effectively Schumacher, or could you argue it's a Mardave with your own parts.

[joker]

why did you put it in the bin? it handles great im tqing and winning the A final every week so must be good im looking forward to the nationals in a few weeks time to see how it goes at the level

[Apricot Slice]

looks yellow to me?

it does look yellow in the pic. has a greenish about it though. maybe a yellow with green in it or something. I expect a woman would give you the exact 'silly name' color that pinpoints it exactly like 'lemony olive' or 'koala piss'

[Mr Eccleston]

Tidy job though.

[Apricot Slice]

If the club adopts the GT12 rules would your car be legal having used parts from both Mardave and effectively Schumacher, or could you argue it's a Mardave with your own parts.

Tidy job though.


Thanks.

Yes. I believe it is legal in the GT12.1 rules.

As long as your build follows the rules there is nothing stopping you from making car from the ground up... like Schumacher and Mardave have done.

[mark christopher]

If the club adopts the GT12 rules would your car be legal having used parts from both Mardave and effectively Schumacher, or could you argue it's a Mardave with your own parts.

Thanks.

Yes. I believe it is legal in the GT12.1 rules.

As long as your build follows the rules there is nothing stopping you from making car from the ground up... like Schumacher and Mardave have done.

scratch build is legal, but if it blew the others away the BRCA would look into its legality and poss change the wording,, you may also be asked to show it for sale as a kit or upgrade to others.

[jasond43]

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/no1.jpg (http://http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/no1.jpg)
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/no2.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr74/Zogg538/no3.jpg

After much measuring and thinking and taking into account what I can build and what is practical to build I came up with this.


It has a Mardave pod on the back. Which I think is very hard to beat in terms of being robust and good geometry.
The front end is just a Schumacher. Looks a bit different but essentially the same.
Battery is quite a bit further back and the area for the esc is accommodating.

Have made two of them and me and a friend will be trying them out soon. (if out club accepts GT12 rules)
Its kind of a prototype stage and we will be trying to evolve it into something better.
i want one please please in carbon though cheers

[mark christopher]

The one shown will meet the brca rules, a carbon one would not.

[Apricot Slice]

I may have interpreted the rules wrong here bt this is how I understand it.

GT12.2. This is the 'kit' class.
Cars should, apart from tuning parts, be as they come out of the box.

The rules state 6.7.1 'A rolling chassis kit may exclude all electrics and body shell, but must include one complete set of wheels and tires suitable for use on a carpet racing surface.'
Should you decide to compete as a manufacturer it looks like you will be investing in tooling for wheels.

GT12.1. Free class.
Can be anything from a basic car fitted with a diff to a completely home built model.
The important thing is that the rules for construction are adhered to.

There is a worry that someone may come along with a homer that goes super fast and will upset the metaphorical apple kart. If you take the time to thoroughly investigate what is possible within the rules, you will find that this situation extremely unlikely if not impossible.

[mark christopher]

I may have interpreted the rules wrong here bt this is how I understand it.

GT12.2. This is the 'kit' class.
Cars should, apart from tuning parts, be as they come out of the box.

The rules state 6.7.1 'A rolling chassis kit may exclude all electrics and body shell, but must include one complete set of wheels and tires suitable for use on a carpet racing surface.'
Should you decide to compete as a manufacturer it looks like you will be investing in tooling for wheels.

GT12.1. Free class.
Can be anything from a basic car fitted with a diff to a completely home built model.
The important thing is that the rules for construction are adhered to.

There is a worry that someone may come along with a homer that goes super fast and will upset the metaphorical apple kart. If you take the time to thoroughly investigate what is possible within the rules, you will find that this situation extremely unlikely if not impossible.


nope as a manufacture you would supply wheels/tyres with your kit, much as schumacher supply contact tyres, they could have supplied mardave, if you produced your car as a kit you could supply either. you do not need your own.

[SlowOne]

Apricot Slice, that is one neat build! As for the points raised on legality...

This car is eligible for GT12.1. It does not come as a kit so it is not subject to the price limit. It has "additional parts not supplied in the rolling chassis kit" as is allowed. It has no diff but it does have "replacements for other parts." Whether we think it is a VRX with a Supastox front end, or vice-versa, is not relevant to its inclusion.

One can argue that it is not in the spirit of "This class is based on the principals of close, fair and low cost racing." (as it has cost a lot more than buying just one of those kits) but that is not a rule, just an overall description of what the class is for.

I also agree that the chances of something like that beating the pants off the competition are low. With 930g of weight, a fixed camber at both ends and effectively cart axle suspension at both ends, the handling is almost totally reliant on the tyre contact patch, and that's the same for everyone. As for motive power, so far we find that they are all pretty much on a par once geared for a good lap time, and not just top speed.

However, we will not be seeing that car in any National any time soon, since as far as I can make our neither the motor or the speedo are on any BRCA approved list. :D Sorry Slice, couldn't resist!!

Seriously, it is still an impressive build...

[SlowOne]

Sorry, double post! :blush:

[Apricot Slice]

Apricot Slice, that is one neat build! As for the points raised on legality...

This car is eligible for GT12.1. It does not come as a kit so it is not subject to the price limit. It has "additional parts not supplied in the rolling chassis kit" as is allowed. It has no diff but it does have "replacements for other parts." Whether we think it is a VRX with a Supastox front end, or vice-versa, is not relevant to its inclusion.

One can argue that it is not in the spirit of "This class is based on the principals of close, fair and low cost racing." (as it has cost a lot more than buying just one of those kits) but that is not a rule, just an overall description of what the class is for.

I also agree that the chances of something like that beating the pants off the competition are low. With 930g of weight, a fixed camber at both ends and effectively cart axle suspension at both ends, the handling is almost totally reliant on the tyre contact patch, and that's the same for everyone. As for motive power, so far we find that they are all pretty much on a par once geared for a good lap time, and not just top speed.

However, we will not be seeing that car in any National any time soon, since as far as I can make our neither the motor or the speedo are on any BRCA approved list. :D Sorry Slice, couldn't resist!!

Seriously, it is still an impressive build...

Thanks.

I can tell you how much it cost. Apart from bits from Mardave, Schumacher and electrics, approximately £15 for some 2.4mm and 3.2mm grp. Not exactly beyond the realms of low cost.

[dodgydiy]

why would this car not be legal in carbon but is legal in frp??, are the manufacturers carbon cars also not legal for gt12??

[mark christopher]

why would this car not be legal in carbon but is legal in frp??, are the manufacturers carbon cars also not legal for gt12??
its written clearly in the rules.

6.1.1 The material of the chassis component must be available from the manufacturer in a kit available at or below the price limit in Rule 6.7 (Intent – that the material used for the chassis must be included as the chassis in a rolling chassis kit, not solely as upgrades to a rolling chassis kit).

[joker]

mardave sell a carbon kit under the price limit so that would be legal so long as carbon was used as the kit material then its fine u can not run a supastock with a carbon chassis as shue dont put it in a kit for under £100 but mardave do so u can run a mardave with a carbon chassis if you sold that kit as a full car with wheels like it states in the rules for under £100 with carbon chassis then it will be legal.
i do think this rule is a bit stupid the whole point of the gt12 class is to have a class of racing that is cheap so that rule sounds good as it would stop people going out and spending loads of money getting one off carbon parts made but you can spend as much money as you like on hot ups witch in the supastocks case can cost more than the car cost making it cost the same price as a full blown 12th scale and it dose seem unfair that madave can run a carbon chassis and no one else can may the rule should of band carbon full stop. people will always find a way round the rules like mardave have done to make carbon chassis legal for there drivers and no one else

[SlowOne]

Joker, here's the situation...

There is a class for cars that does not allow any hop-ups, and the cars must be run without a diff - GT12.2. This class is catered for at the Nationals. It is there to allow Clubs to run a lower-cost class and still have drivers able to enter racing at National level. GT12.1 allows hop-ups, so you can choose not to be in a class where you have to pay for hop-ups... or not.

Mardave's carbon car was there before the Rules were set, and before there was a Supastox available. This car was developed because it handles much better than a Mardave with a GRP chassis. Before the Rules came out a carbon chassis was an option at about £30, and after the Rules the carbon car was sold at £10 more than the GRP car. Lower costs to us, I think!

When Rules were formulated, both cars were then available. Both manufacturers were consulted before the Rules were set to make sure that both were happy with what was proposed and that we would not exclude any car on the market. In response to their comments, some changes were made to ensure that both cars were eligible, but the Rules did not favour one or the other. There was no question of things being unfair.

As history relates, both cars are competitive, and one has a GRP chassis and one a carbon chassis. We feel the Rules have succeeded, and with the GT12.2 class the option to run in a class where spending money on hop-ups is not allowed is available to anyone.

HTH :)

[joker]

it is unfair allowing one car to use something that the other can not its like saying you can run a diff but i carnt we all know carbon is better than grp and my supastox is so much faster with a carbon chassis than the stock one but as i carnt use it cos it dont come in the kit. all i was trying to say was that the car that Apricot Slice has made could be raced with carbon chassis so long as it was sold as a full kit and not just a hot up

[SlowOne]

It's not unfair, it is the choice of the manufacturer. Schumacher can put a CF-chassied car on the market if they choose to. Unfair would be if the Rules prevented them doing what Mardave are doing - they don't.

If you want a CF-chassied car from Schumacher, ask them why you can't have one. It's not the Rules at fault, it's the manufacturer not supplying what you want!

You're right about the carbon chassis. Why don't you make one and sell it commercially through the shops as a complete kit, then you'd get what you want!! :thumbsup:

[Chequered Flag Racing]

I thought the Mardave was made from CSC (Carbon Silca Composite) rather than full on Carbon. Schumacher could go this route if they could get the price under the class limit.

[joker]

shue wont do it as it would take the cost well over the £100 limit so it would be pointless them doing it. and you couldnt sell it as a hot up as its alegal to run carbon on a supastock. you have missd the point i was making in the first place.

[dodgydiy]

its written clearly in the rules.

6.1.1 The material of the chassis component must be available from the manufacturer in a kit available at or below the price limit in Rule 6.7 (Intent – that the material used for the chassis must be included as the chassis in a rolling chassis kit, not solely as upgrades to a rolling chassis kit).
so basically any scratch built chassis is not legal to race unless it is supplied in kit form for less than the price limit, that does not say no carbon, that says you cant use anything other than a kit chassis. so you could take a mardave carbon chassis and modify the front end, but you couldnt make your own chassis out of carbon or csc to replace that chassis unless you are a manufacturer

[joker]

yes thats rite so long as it comes in a kit for under the price limit the chassis can be made out of anything alloy, grp, carbon. so you could mod a carbon mardave chassis to take the schue front end and that would be fine but if you wanted to make your own chassis youd have to sell it as a full kit for under £100 and it can be made out of what ever you like

[Apricot Slice]

I made 2 of these... 'Super-Dave's'. Both had their first proper race last night at Lochgelly. I got a 2nd in the C final coz i'm rubbish and Paul got a 2nd in the A.
Busy working on a Mk2 at the moment which will be a proper new car not just a half dozen of one a 6 of the other job.
It wont just be different but has features that eliminate the comedy steering at both ends and some other built in tuning options.


Also... unless rigidity somehow gives you an edge, there is little if no advantage in fancy laminates. My model made out of plain old grp was spot on the weight limit rtr.

[joker]

how dose this your car comper to a normal dave or ss? were you both faster or slower with it?

[Apricot Slice]

how dose this your car comper to a normal dave or ss? were you both faster or slower with it?

It feels much easier to drive than a Dave. (works nice with tires out the SS box)
Never even bothered trying the SS as the back end is silly and the esc hangs over the edge.
Dont know if the car is technically any quicker or slower around a bend or on the straight but bet I'm getting quicker lap times because its easier to drive.

[vrooom]

I find my supastox front end crap.the front end moves under cornering loads, it changes direction everytime i had a small bump.
i wish to fit mardave wishbones and hub/steering to it. anyone done this?

if so, how does it drive??

[Martyn (Bomber)]

I find my supastox front end crap.the front end moves under cornering loads, it changes direction everytime i had a small bump.
i wish to fit mardave wishbones and hub/steering to it. anyone done this?

if so, how does it drive??

The independent wishbone kit that Schumacher do works well, try that.

[Apricot Slice]

I find my supastox front end crap.the front end moves under cornering loads, it changes direction everytime i had a small bump.
i wish to fit mardave wishbones and hub/steering to it. anyone done this?

if so, how does it drive??

there is a quick fix for that. wrap some tape around the threads where the grommet goes on to bulk it out a little to remove the slop. If the grommets are slopping about in the hole, glue them in place.
When you got it sorted I dont think you will want to use a Mardave front end.

[mark christopher]

instead of tape use heatshrink;)

[Apricot Slice]

i find aluminium tape the best coz it stays put and you can adjust easy for best fit.