how acceptable is it to modify parts on a kit?

[Chris Doughty]

just a general topic I would be interested to hear peoples views on.

how acceptable is it to have to modify, dereml, drill parts on your car to make it fit or to get it to work?

would not not buy a car because of this?
do you like to do this?

do you expect a national level competition kit to have to be finished by hand?

[frogger]

I wouldn't expect it to 'need' finishing by hand but I quite enjoying making changes or 'improvements' by dremeling and cutting the original stuff. :woot:

Mass market kits tend to be over engineered to be stronger for the general public so I think there is a lot that can be done to make them better\faster (maybe at the expence of a little durability).

[bigred5765]

i would think like any top end specialized vehicle,some modifying and or dremmeling to be done,i enjoy it,and find it hard to see any firm making competitive priced cars that don't need it,theres just to many variables,

[Chris Doughty]

another one....

if you buy a product for your car, how acceptable is it to HAVE to buy another product (from another manufacturer) to be able to fit/use this part?

[bigred5765]

depends if its in the original instructions or detail, ie (to use this u must have )

[frogger]

Yeah, agree with bigred, as long as it's stated clearly and early on then to me it's OK to buy something that also needs something else.

[Southwell]

another one....

if you buy a product for your car, how acceptable is it to HAVE to buy another product (from another manufacturer) to be able to fit/use this part?

Depends on the part. If it's breakable and only one bit breaks i don't want to be buying a pack when i could get just one bit. I think as long as the parts are properly labled as needing more to complete i see no harm in it.

[Rick]

In answer to your first question, I think it is unacceptable.

For the basic kits made for the mass market - the people buying these do not neccesarily have the skill or knowhow to do this, therefore do not get the best from the kit which may deter them from continuing.

For the Pro/Team/WE kits - we are paying a premium for the best kit available, it should therefore not need to be "fettled" to get it together properly.


another one....

if you buy a product for your car, how acceptable is it to HAVE to buy another product (from another manufacturer) to be able to fit/use this part?

As for your second question, unfortunately I do not understand what you mean, do you have an example?

[Northy]

another one....

if you buy a product for your car, how acceptable is it to HAVE to buy another product (from another manufacturer) to be able to fit/use this part?

I think if it makes the car faster/easier to drive, racers wouldn't think twice.

G

[Chris Doughty]

thanks for the replies.

an example of my second question.

I have an AE car.

I see a new product from Toe-Racing that I really want, but to make the Toe-Racing part fit on my car I ALSO need to buy the PieSpeed part. (and it does clearly state that)

acceptable?

[super__dan]

I think I am biased on this one, well in fact I am.

I think that everyone has a choice of what to buy and that choice is based on information and personal preference. So as long as you know what you are buying, what else you need and what are options then it's OK. It is possible that you determine the best car for you is the hardest to build/assemble, becasue that will be fastest. Others will not agree.

We all chose to buy car kits that come with no eletronics, some people from outside the racing part of our hobby might think this is unacceptable, or that we buy seperate tyres and wheels and have to glue them together. We as racers see this as necessary!

[frogger]

Yes as long as both are available freely. Would be a bit of a p!sser if you really wanted part A but part B were discontinued :D

[jimmy]

If its a 'hardcore' racing product then maybe it doesn't matter so much - but people generally want it all handing to them on a plate - and if they want something, they want to buy it and have done, not be faffing about searching for another thing as well. If both things were offered at the same source and it was easy to understand etc then thats ok - but saying you need to go find this piespeed part yourself 'good luck' isn't really good.

[Rick]

Yes I think so if you choose to use an hop up from an alternate supplier especially if they make you aware before you buy

[Northy]

Ooohhh, some new Toe Racing and PieSpeed parts! I can't wait :woot:

G

[super__dan]

thanks for the replies.

an example of my second question.

I have an AE car.

I see a new product from Toe-Racing that I really want, but to make the Toe-Racing part fit on my car I ALSO need to buy the PieSpeed part. (and it does clearly state that)

acceptable?

If PieSpeed have a patent so that Toe-Racing cannot make it then they wouldn't have a choice.

A lot of this is also down to the economics of actually turning out parts for the small racing section of toy cars. As and engineer and my involvement with X Factory I think I understand true costs much better than most people. I often get annoyed when people suggest that manufactures could easily do this and that when they don't realise the cost of molding tooling etc.

That said nobody likes poor quality plastics and mouldings etc, especially from the larger companies.

Please note I continue to acknowledge my bias to this thread!

[Chris Doughty]

good points everyone, lets hear some more...

for referance - I am not currently planning anything - some people have asked!

its just general research that I am interested in peoples views

[ashleyb4]

I dont like a kit where you have to dremmel this and that during the build i dont mind filling the packing pieces of parts but i do like having a fiddle with things and making them for my own interest.

A

[Chrislong]

(biased)

If I was to buy a complete kit, such as a B4, T4, etc etc etc, then id expect the thing to be able to be built up with no dremelling or filing.

I do expect to have to file pips off parts, dremel wishbones so they don't bind and tap some threads before putting a screw in. But this is my choice, it should not be a requirement though, just choice.

If I was choosing a conversion, such as a X-factory, then by the nature of the car then id expect to have to do some dremel work to build it, to adapt the donor car to fit. Some people take some pleasure in doing this, some don't, everybodies different.

If I was buying an aftermarket part for a specific car, then id expect that part to fit straight from the packet - unless i was buying something which wasn't intended for the car and I choose to fettle it, such as putting a XXX4 DC Racing diff into an X-5/XX4.... thats my choice.

Chris

[ashleyb4]

Exsample of what i mean is my mini t to make it more tuneable i dremmeled 2mm off each side of the rear hubs and put two washers so i could have ajustable wheelbase like on the cr its not neccasery but i like to do it.

A

[Bathy]

just a general topic I would be interested to hear peoples views on.

how acceptable is it to have to modify, dereml, drill parts on your car to make it fit or to get it to work?

would not not buy a car because of this?
do you like to do this?

do you expect a national level competition kit to have to be finished by hand?

My view...

I hate any requirements to modify a kit, I expect a car kit to be perfect out of the box, once you start hacking away they end up looking 'amateur-ville'. A good kit should be perfect before being sold to paying customers... Yokomo have this sorted, from my experience all parts are always very professionally finished.

[jim76]

i think if it's a dedicated kit from a major manufacturer like AE or Kyosho, then it should go together with no modifying needed (except trimming plastic parts off a spur etc). The have the resources to mould the parts to a high standard.

If you are opting for a conversion to an existing car then i think you will have to except that some modifactions will be necesary and this should be stated by the manufacturer at the time of purchase.

Obviously with forums these days, most racers will know what is needed with each kit/conversion, so they can take this into account before they buy a product. So no one can really moan after the have bought a product that it needed the dremel etc.


oops - think i overlapped with Mr Long - it's almost a carbon copy of his post!

[mole2k]

My views are quite similar to the above. I think a budget or even a top spec kit should go together with the minimal amount of work to be done to get it running. Building a conversion kit I think its pretty much expected as you are converting bits that some modifications will be nessecary.

I wouldnt be overly against modifying kits to make them faster but I think the kit as a whole should build up as per instructions with very little modification needed.

Things like the front C hubs on the 501x needing drilled/remoulded I think shouldnt really be acceptable on a kit of that level.

Cleaning off plastic bits of plastic from mouldings and tapping the occasional screw thread into plastic I dont see as a problem. Dremelling down a bit so it will actually fit into the car should be unacceptable at a professional level kit from a top level manufacturer.

As for upgrades needing other upgrades to work, I think this is fine as long as they are clearly labelled and the other parts are easy to find preferably from the same source if its a shop.

[DCM]

Personally, I think with todays modern designing and manufacturing procedures, there should be no need to dremmel or modify a part to make it fit on an initial build, I can understand the use of shims though, in a high spec kit too, but to have to drill holes properly, sand suspension arms to gain free movement etc, whether it is a kit or a conversion, I think, is not on, we pay enough for them so as not to have to.

Gone are the days of 'building' long live the days of assembling.....

This does not include tips and tricks found out to improve performance etc.... they are part of the fun.

As for aftermarket parts, it is wrong for a chassis manufacturer to make you buy one part so you can fit another, but from a 3rd party, well, it is your choice.... innit...

[RogerM]

My opinion is that no car manufacturer should expect the buyer to do any mods that can not be done with the contents of a basic tool kit (screwdrivers, knives etc.). To that end I think drilling holes in stuff and dremelling parts is a big no-no. My main reason for this is two fold;

1) if that part breaks trackside (especially at a practice event when not so many people have loads of kit with them) it can be the end of the day. That would get on my nerves to say the least.

2) some people don't have the equipment / skills to do a decent job and the result of that is at best a duff job, at worst a nasty injury.

Now I've been racing 2 decades plus, restore classic Minis for fun and have practically refitted my whole house myself so I'm not scared of a bit of "DIY". There is however no way that I'd recomend a car to somebody that needed this sort of work.

I understand why companies like X-factory do this though, to save the end user money (assuming that they can do the mods themselves). I have nothing but respect for those guys for getting their cars to the market and making them popular but I personally could never recomend an X5 to anybody because of the mods needed at build and repair times.

To my mind the easy option for companies like the X-Factory is to offer the option of buying pre-modified parts at a premium. That way those who could / wanted to do the mods could and those that didn't did not have to.

The above is an example only and in no way a negative post about X-Factory

As for the 2nd question of having to buy a specific part to use another upgrade part I think that is ok so long as it is clearly marked on the actual packaging in at least as large a font as the parts own number and description. It would be nice if both parts could be bought in the same pack but I don't think that is essential.


Just to make it clear both my cars have dremel type mods on them and the RB5 does have an upgrade that requires another part it's not supplied with (well actually Kyosho now do supply all the parts in one pack but they didn't when I did the mod). I have made those choices and if I have to run around to try and borrow a dremel at a meeting to replace the parts then so be it .... I am willing to take that risk as in both cases I doubt that the modded parts breaking would happen without doing enough other damage to make it impossible to get out in the next round, even at a national.
An example of this is my own design of rear shock tower for the ZX5-SP which does give performance gains but I do not run this at meetings as if I broke it and the set-up was based on it I'd be stuffed. When I get a batch from Fibre-lyte, AC, DC or whoever I'll start to run it but not before.

If I had to mod something like a wishbone or shock tower I'd not be happy running that mod unless I had enough spares with me to replace it if it broke every round ...... at which point I'd do with out the mod as to finish first you must first finish!

[MattW]

I'll throw a view in just for the hell of it!! Note - these are just my personal views, and not connected to anyone else!

Is it acceptable to have to modify parts to make them "fit" (work is an interesting word, so i'll deliberately not use it - depends how you interpret it IMHO)?? No, if you buy a complete kit (conversions are different), it is not unreasonable to expect all the parts to fit.

However, is it acceptable to have to modify parts to improve the car?? yes i think it is. I'll use the B4 rear wishbone/wheelbase as example. This is something that some people do to improve the car - but it isn't necessary.

I think my latter view becomes more acceptable the older that the product gets - i.e. the longer it has been on the market. I say this, as things are learnt along the way as people get more experience with it. Take the xx4, we all kno about it, and all know that there are things that you modify to improve it - i think this is ok due to the age of the design.

[MK999]

I think a kit that goes together perfectly first time with no slop or binding would produce a pretty unrivalled sense of quality, moreso than something that says "sand xxx until it no longer binds" or even something that expects you to figure this out, it would also make someone thats new to the hobby lose interest quickly imo, a car that doesn't perform at all cos it's binding all over the place isn't gonna make someone want to continue.

[terry.sc]

It's a good job no one here had to build an original Schumacher CAT then.:D The anti roll bars were a straight piece of piano wire, two ball joints that needed soldering on to it, and a plan and front elevation engineering drawing. You also had to put bends on the ends of the pivot pins and deburr the shock shafts yourself.:eh?:

Should you be able to throw a kit together today - definitely as the quality standard of modern kits means it is now expected. Even top level kits are expected to do this today.

Personally I got bored of racing when it went from developing your own car (including modifying it yourself) to just buying a kit, screwing it together and racing it.

[RogerM]

Terry I remember all that, as a pre-teen it was a little daunting at frist but you soon got used to it. The CAT was a great example though ...... only certain people could actually build / maintain one .... my dad used to make a few quid at every meeting by arranging to build a CAT for somebody.
To put things into prospective though as I was always expected to look after my own cars I ran Kyosho as all you really had to do was shake the box a bit and out popped a perfectly build car! I also remember the guys running CATs at my club back then spent far more time working on their cars than racing.

We all know how good the CAT was and if somebody showed up with one that you didn't know it was easy to see if they were going to be good or not .... if the car made the second corner without something falling off you had a race on!!!!

LOL :D

[Welshy40]

just a general topic I would be interested to hear peoples views on.

how acceptable is it to have to modify, dereml, drill parts on your car to make it fit or to get it to work?

would not not buy a car because of this?
do you like to do this?

do you expect a national level competition kit to have to be finished by hand?

I think the kit supplied is good, but to the general rules of course. Obviously I wouldnt expect it to be done by hand, rather the items for the prototype done by hand and tested well before the molds are made and sold (like of course your proto cars and like my old proto ZXS buggies), and like yourself there is always something after the kit is manufactured and made that you do not like or prefer to do slightly differently to better the car to your style of driving.

However the kits should have readily available items such as hubs,castor blocks etc instead of having another outfit selling for more money.

It makes this hobby more interesting. But what is your opinion? You are developing cars so you have a different angle but it would be interesting.

[rcluke]

modding kits is good because it means that not everybody has the same car and it keeps the individuality of the hobby.

[josh_smaxx]

I dont particularly like dremeling a chassis or parts to make them fit because i feel i'll bugger it up, but when i bought the X-6 i new id have to, didnt stop me getting annoyed after a while but to be totally honest, after i drove that car at the weekend id have been happy to open a box full of blank plastic and have to machine every part myself. It felt so worth it.

[PaulC2K]

Interesting thread.

just a general topic I would be interested to hear peoples views on.

how acceptable is it to have to modify, dereml, drill parts on your car to make it fit or to get it to work?

would not not buy a car because of this?
do you like to do this?

do you expect a national level competition kit to have to be finished by hand?
I'd expect (pretty much demand) that the kit went together fine without any hassles, trim excess plastic of the part-tree and no more, and it'd work fine. That IMO is the standard all kits should be built to.
I'd still expect the more enthusiastic racer would want to work on the car to try and find some performance improvements, and im sure there are plenty to be found which will be hardly noticable but can be important to capable drivers where tiny things can make a difference.
If things arent freely moving, as they are designed to be, then its not good, particularly if its not 1 or 2 items, or the odd kit from a bad batch.

Would i still buy it?
I'd buy a kit based on what its capable of, and how easy/realistic it is to acheive it. If i've got to put more work into getting it race-worthy, than the manufacture has put into designing and manufacturing it, i wouldnt be interested. If its just a case of making sure everything runs smoothly thats fine, i'd buy it.

Like to do it?
Maybe, if not doing it doesnt cause issues, excess strain, reduced performance etc then i'd probably not do it when building the kit, play for a bit and the next re-build it'd look at what could be improved.
Personally i'd prefer to do them in my own time, wouldnt say i like it, wouldnt say i hated it, but i do it if needed. If it was causing issues, i wouldnt be mighty impressed.

another one....

if you buy a product for your car, how acceptable is it to HAVE to buy another product (from another manufacturer) to be able to fit/use this part?
As others have said, provided the other part was widely available then i think thats acceptable, particularly if its a long-term item which will last, rather than something that needs regular replacement. If i only have to make the purchase once, great. If it means messing about with multiple suppliers... i'd look at the pro's & con's and see if its worth the hassle and possibly additional costs of 2 orders/p&p's.