new amb system

[mark christopher]

seems there was some discussion at the agm re mylaps/amb, where the "new system" will not count mrt and the old amb bugs.... anyone add more light?

[learnerdriver]

Big problems with rc timing and decoders for 2013 if you run rc4 the new PTs will work but MRT will not work harrys will work AMB PT(3 lug large) could be hit and miss club handout may not work.
The new percy PT will not work on rc4.
The percy transponder can be supplied as a cone.

taken from a post on maxbashing tonight :-(

[Hpi_guy]

So what's that in English?

Will my MRT PTX work?

[Col]

Which AGM was this?

[Ross]

So what's that in English?

Will my MRT PTX work?

My understanding is decoders will be upgraded to RC4's from RC3's, not sure what that means. The old style AMB's may not work with RC4 and MRT's will not work.

Which AGM was this?

BRCA

[Hpi_guy]

:confused: still none the wiser, is this upgrade a software or hardware upgrade?

[Oli_M]

We visited MyLaps headquarters in the Netherlands when we were over there for the Worlds earlier in the year. Got to tour the facility and had a detailed presentation about what they were planning in the future.

The info we received at that time was that, yes there is a new style of transponder and decoder on the way soon, but the existing PTs (original red PTs) will continue to be supported by the new system - they acknowledged that a lot of people out there already had the original transponders and would be a terrible idea if those no longer were compatible!

The "new" system will offer an additional digit (so you can keep the same number for all your cars, but identify each one separately - useful when practising in particular). The current models of PT will be detected, but just won't have this extra function.

So either someone's got the wrong end of the stick here, or MyLaps have significantly changed their strategy in the last 3 months!

[knighthawk]

I heard that its a hardware upgrade, ie a new decoder unit !
This has been said on a couple forums about the MRT Transponder
will be incompatable with future decoders.

But I was unaware that the older AMB Transponder's would be affected !

[Chequered Flag Racing]

This has been said on a couple forums about the MRT Transponder
will be incompatable with future decoders.




that's going to upset a lot of MRT PT users worldwide not just in the UK if that's the case

[Hpi_guy]

I can't imagine that they would do that without upgrading everyone's pt for free to become compatible with the new system, it would either kill my laps or all rc timing gear

[Ross]

Sounds like i got the AMB part of it wrong then :) sorry.

[knighthawk]

that's going to upset a lot of MRT PT users worldwide not just in the UK if that's the case

I'm not sure either way chap !!
But MRT and MyLaps are two different companies, MyLaps being the one putting all the time, money and resource's into making the system
MRT cashed in !
The age old saying comes to mind !
Buy cheap - Buy twice

[jimbot]

This was discussed at the brca agm today.
The issue is if someone buys the new transponder percy it will only work with rc4 the new decoder.
The new decoder will not pick up all the mrt signal and they will miss laps.
In short the new system is much better but you will need harry or percy transponders to use it.
So if anyone has an older transponder they will need to upgrade.
The new system is much better all rc3 decoders get a free upgrade.
The problem for clubs is when to move over to rc4!
We have major issues with mrt and number clashes in 1/8 off road this will be removed.
The new percy transponder can be supplied as a cone the computer will have a model reference agains this clone to stop 2 cars being used.
Clubs will have to decide what route to follow.
Jim

[Si Coe]

I doubt the new system will be deliberately incompatible with MRT transponders, but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me if it was accidentally incompatible.
By that I mean that when doing backwards compatibility tests Mylaps never actually tried with an MRT transponder to see if it works or not. However, since they are functionally identical to the old AMB's as far as the loop/decoder goes I can't see how that can happen.

What sounds more likely is that with the new numbering system Mylaps will need a better track of who owns which numbers (so you can have xxxxxxx1 in one car and xxxxxxx2 in another) and maybe make a big central database. All those MRT's floating around with non-original numbers might cause some issues there as you'll get several people (worldwide) with the same 'unique' number.

[knighthawk]

I can't imagine that they would do that without upgrading everyone's pt for free to become compatible with the new system, it would either kill my laps or all rc timing gear

Giving the whole world free transponders !
That would bust the company in a nano second, not gonna happen !

As with most things in the world, if you want to stay upto date you are expected to purchase the new equipment !!

But as I understand it, AMB/MyLaps Transponders will be supported with no issues

But not sure if MRT will be !

[Ross]

Giving the whole world free transponders !
That would bust the company in a nano second, not gonna happen !

As with most things in the world, if you want to stay upto date you are expected to purchase the new equipment !!

But as I understand it, AMB/MyLaps Transponders will be supported with no issues

But not sure if MRT will be !

I hope your correct . I have 1 Harry,2 AMB and an MRT, I don't mind changing 1 of them but not 3, it will be the end othe hobby for me.

[Rich D]

Some clarification would be good if possible. I have three MRT PT's. never had any trouble or issue with any of them nor any clashed numbers. If it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind. Hate to jump to conclusions but this does read as another unnecessary money spinner upon first impressions. :thumbdown:

I hope I'm wrong.

[racingdwarf]

hmm, so as I see it, harrys are good, the new percys are good ,MRT's are for the bin.

Thing that needs to be really clear when an announcement is made is are the original three lug PT's (pre harrys) not going to work?
Nice move if it will not as we bought a load with our club system,back then they were 40 quid a go I still run 2 in the kids cars, just remind me how much is the new one I need to buy:mad:

But if I buy a new percy it's not going to work at any of my local clubs.....

[Dazzler]

So when Harry's were first introduced / announced, this was some of the key information povided: - http://www.bbkrclive.com/2010/OffroadEurosWarmup/RC4System.pdf

It covers most of what is being proposed. (Ommiting any backwards compatabillity issues)

RC4 firmware is a free upgrade of Firmware on RC3 decoders - or atleast that is how our RC3 decoder was sold to us. (See attached image - Decoder Upgrade Info taken from BBK site).

In contrast to this, the MyLaps site would have you believe it's not free.. (See attached image - MyLaps Upgrade). I think this may be a version related issue.

I'm suprised to read there is a new PT (Percy) offering the same features promissed with the Harry, but which haven't come to fruition after such a long time.

Hopefully Rob at BBK will provide all the facts and put us all straight. (or light the blue touch paper) :woot:

Certainly as a club, it is imperative that we fully understand the implications of carrying out the upgrade prior to doing so.

[stumpiey]

if this is so that the MRT wont work on the RC4 decoder and the older amb's might thats an awful lot to change.
it also will kill the 2nd had price of an MRT, might be ok selling at a club that wont be upgrading the decoder, but on forums it will be worthless really:mad:

iv had the same mtr in my cars for three years and it has not missed a lap anywhere, even at herts where we get told there maybe an issue each time we go there

[mikeyscott]

Whenever there has been a PT issue or number clash at TORCH it's been MRT so I no longer recommend them. I ditched all my MRTs for 2 x Harry's

We are still using RC2 with no issues.


I'm more interested in software compatibility and what software the BRCA will be using. Bbkrc, my laps, fab count or other?

[jimbot]

Don’t forget this is a massive step up in the technology the dilemma is what way to go straight to rc4 or run rc4 from 2014 (not supporting Percy transponders till then).
Shame the old and new won't run together.
Jim

[mikeyscott]

Don’t forget this is a massive step up in the technology the dilemma is what way to go straight to rc4 or run rc4 from 2014 (not supporting Percy transponders till then).
Shame the old and new won't run together.
Jim

Certainly sounds interesting, will check out my laps site later.

Embracing tech - I like that :)

[mark christopher]

My understanding is decoders will be upgraded to RC4's from RC3's, not sure what that means. The old style AMB's may not work with RC4 and MRT's will not work.



BRCA

I heard that its a hardware upgrade, ie a new decoder unit !
This has been said on a couple forums about the MRT Transponder
will be incompatable with future decoders.

But I was unaware that the older AMB Transponder's would be affected !

This was discussed at the brca agm today.
The issue is if someone buys the new transponder percy it will only work with rc4 the new decoder.
The new decoder will not pick up all the mrt signal and they will miss laps.
In short the new system is much better but you will need harry or percy transponders to use it.
So if anyone has an older transponder they will need to upgrade.
The new system is much better all rc3 decoders get a free upgrade.
The problem for clubs is when to move over to rc4!
We have major issues with mrt and number clashes in 1/8 off road this will be removed.
The new percy transponder can be supplied as a cone the computer will have a model reference agains this clone to stop 2 cars being used.
Clubs will have to decide what route to follow.
Jim
well my mrt pts are a clone of the original amb pt i owned and when the wire broke they only told me to buy new and not even offered a reapair, my mrt have my number so no class and the mrt give out the same signal that my old amb did, there is no way of identifying between the two. so to me if mrt wont work, niether will the old amb big ones....
so your screwed either way, buy a new 4 and it wont work at clubs running older systems, have a pt for older systems and it may not count on newer software.

[crtpromachine]

:oWell Well what a suprises to hear this at the AGM no NOT REALLY

If you sit and think about it here we are as normal drivers struggling to keep attending meetings and support the clubs .At this time alone 2 clubs have closed down this summer in the Midlands area is this surely not just going to close more clubs down as drivers will not be able to afford to change there personal transponders.

Even more so if they own more than 1 but hey ho as long as BBK and BRCA are getting there money from people do they really give a shi* about us the most IMPORTANT people the racers and also the clubs obviousley not as this would have not been discussed and being introduced.Typical BRCA i scratch your arse if you will scratch mine;

Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but there you have it

Thinking along the same lines as the racers?

Do they have to find extra money for swapping over p/t;s?

Are they actually bothered at all ?

Do they give a shi* ?

Ask yourselves these questions as at the end of the day by 2013 there will be alot more racers giving up this hobby/sport and a few more clubs closing down can;t they see this or do they choose not to

Oh yeh i forgot as long they have the money keep flowing into there silver pot they all seem very happy to go and spend on ridiculous stuff like a website that is not what you call great spend days searching and you may find what your looking for.

I am sure by keeping the old p/ts and system would this not be more beneficial not only for al lthe racers but clubs to

Just my 2 pennies worth

[john333]

Well good luck to whoever gives the go ahead for this diabolical decision, I can imagine it causing the biggest uproar rc racing has ever had. As mentioned above, it WILL close down already dying clubs, and it WILL cause racers to call it a day.

The BRCA should think very strongly before acting on this.

The more you think about it, the bigger the arse pain it is, yes our club just doesn't do the upgrade and continue as we are, but then the club up the road does and our pt's won't work?? Will regionals and national hosting clubs be made to upgrade??

Good luck with it BRCA

[Hpi_guy]

Surely that means that if it is a software update then all hand out transponders will become defunct?

[Si Coe]

My reading of this is that hand-outs won't work either. Really can't see how MRT's won't but they will. Add to that the fact some clubs actually use MRT's as handouts and there is a clear problem.

Mylaps don't actually like handouts (they stopped making them a long time back and don't support them) but any club that has them will tell you how useful they are, especially for new members.

That means I can't see many clubs clamoring for RC4's right now - unless this new Percy PT is really cheap and can be bought in bulk it is not in their interests. Mylaps are sort of admitting this themselves between the lines with the whole 'free upgrade' bit - you never offer that sort of thing unless you need to coax people into changing.

For nationals I can see the advantage, so them going RC4 does make sense. If you are paying for nats anyway the cost of a new transponder is a drop in the ocean. But then your shiny new PT won't work at a club meet because they haven't upgraded......

[Frecklychimp]

Why would clubs spend money on upgrading timing hardware/software so the majority of their customers cannot race?!

I think too many people are reading into this the wrong way and rumour is getting people flustered for no reason.

Just because a new timing system has been developed doesn't mean it has to be used.

We are not going to have to rush out to replace our p/t's because existing systems will suddenly stop working overnight... maybe it means that AMB are only developing a newer system for r/c and older systems will not be supported in the long term future.

You have to remember that AMB make timing equipment for the majority of full size motorsport and the r/c industry is tiny in comparison so won't be any priority for them, new developments will always be happening to improve 1:1 timing equipment as that is where the real money is.

This has nothing to do with BBK, they just make software.

Mr Christopher only asked for some clarification on the discussions not to bring doom that r/c racing will have any uproar!

[Jason A]

Ok I have spoken to bbk software and have it from the horses mouth :-)

The currant rc4 update which was due be done when the Harry pt's came out was put on hold due to issues with the F1 timing systems and kers.

Amb have had to filter out magnetic interference caused by the kers system.

This filtering has been added to the rc4 update which will make the Harry pt's about 2.5times more accurate.

The issue with the mrt transponders is becouse when they were made they must be not a perfect clone becouse the rc4 software is filtering out them and causing missed laps at about a rate of 25%

As far as I am aware all rc3 pt's will work perfectly on rc4 and this will inc red hand out transponders.

If anyone needs further info bbk software are more than willing to discuse what's going on as I found our today.

:)

[racingdwarf]

what it would be nice to see is a system that does the following

Receives signal from original 3 lug PT
Receives signal from harrys
Receives signal from percy
And receives signal from a reasonably priced hand out transponder,that charges in a rack,this would really help on a club level as it's quite hard to tell a new member with ansmann etc ready to run that they will need to spend a fortune (close to the price of their car)on a little red box to race!.For the club that I'm involved with this is one of the reasons we as yet have not bought AMB.

I can understand that they would want to stop MRT's working,I'm surprised it's taken them this long to make it so. I'm not saying it's good at all, but I can understand it.

[Chequered Flag Racing]

If the MRT PT is going to miss laps on RC4 maybe MRT will come up with a solution and offer it as an update to their current customers at a small cost

[lordnikon]

This is the most obvious answer. MRT will just update to run with it. They are not daft and is the norm when it comes to upgraded like this in the IT industry. Whether its update your existing hardware or have to buy new is the only real question .....

If the MRT PT is going to miss laps on RC4 maybe MRT will come up with a solution and offer it as an update to their current customers at a small cost

[Jason A]

This is the most obvious answer. MRT will just update to run with it. They are not daft and is the norm when it comes to upgraded like this in the IT industry. Whether its update your existing hardware or have to buy new is the only real question .....

Ok I have just spoken to mrt and they have said once the new rc4 system is publicly avalible and if there is issue they will just tweak what ever is needed.

And you will prob just have send back your pt to be reprogrammed :-)

They are aware that there maybe an issue now.

[Chequered Flag Racing]

And you will prob just have send back your pt to be reprogrammed :-)



https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaTqT6u_BvFW7j30-w75sBgc5IBnB662v9VMK94kvda8_A1VI_

[fidspeed]

real hornets nest this one :woot:

i race mainly at my local club i have invested in 4 AMB's (early ones) no harrys or MRT and my local club moved from AMB 20 to AmB Rc a few year ago not sure which version and we still have handouts (slowly failing we have sent some to a guy in Oz we kindly re batteried them for us )

they are vital for our novice drivers as mentioned previously

we would be in a right mess if we moved on you may as well throw it away as nobody i know has a Harry yet at our club (i may be wrong) never mind percys

not sure what the BRCA will do, i certainly cant see our club changing and as stated only the nationals boys may change but they will still need old style ambs to compete if clubs like ours havent changed

fid

[Robbiejuk]

I don't remember there being any problem between the RC2 to the RC3 upgrade with backwards compatibility. I reckon it will be exactly the same when the new RC4 units come out. The only time you couldn't use old handout transponders was when they went from Analogue to digital, but you could trade in against the the new system and get a good discount.

I seemed to remember that the Harrys when they first came out were supposed to have this extra digit but it never materialised. I reckon that these new transponders will have a number similar to what we have now but then a 1 on the end, then your second copy will have a two on the end, etc, etc. Now I am assuming that if you used a Percy on an RC3 it would ignore the digit on the end and just pick up the original 7 digits. So assuming that you are not trying to run two cars in the same race at the same time then you wouldn't notice any difference.

[jo90]

I've read through this I have wondered if there has actually been any 'official' reply or release on exactly is happening at this time ?

Right now it is speculation, understandable as many don't want to have to upgrade as it is more cost that to be fair shouldnt be a concideration.

Lets await an official reply, post or new clip about this. If it sways to the RC4 being incompatible backwards to the older bugs then yes I think there needs to be a high level to low level discussion across the country. This is not something that can simply be decided between a small group of people, and in fact a national vote should be brought in.

However, looking at this objectivley is there any way that MyLaps et al would do something where previous bugs cant be used ? It would be like signing their death warant and happily galivanting in the street awaiting the coming bullets.

[Chequered Flag Racing]

It's about time MRT came out with their own decoder and race software, that would be great. :D

[Jim Spencer]

:oWell Well what a suprises to hear this at the AGM no NOT REALLY

If you sit and think about it here we are as normal drivers struggling to keep attending meetings and support the clubs .At this time alone 2 clubs have closed down this summer in the Midlands area is this surely not just going to close more clubs down as drivers will not be able to afford to change there personal transponders.

Even more so if they own more than 1 but hey ho as long as BBK and BRCA are getting there money from people do they really give a shi* about us the most IMPORTANT people the racers and also the clubs obviousley not as this would have not been discussed and being introduced.Typical BRCA i scratch your arse if you will scratch mine;

Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but there you have it

Thinking along the same lines as the racers?

Do they have to find extra money for swapping over p/t;s?

Are they actually bothered at all ?

Do they give a shi* ?

Ask yourselves these questions as at the end of the day by 2013 there will be alot more racers giving up this hobby/sport and a few more clubs closing down can;t they see this or do they choose not to

Oh yeh i forgot as long they have the money keep flowing into there silver pot they all seem very happy to go and spend on ridiculous stuff like a website that is not what you call great spend days searching and you may find what your looking for.

I am sure by keeping the old p/ts and system would this not be more beneficial not only for al lthe racers but clubs to

Just my 2 pennies worth

This post really takes the pi55

The BRCA has NOTHING What so ever to do with My Laps.

All I notice is people who give a kicking to the other racers who get off their backside and attended the AGM to help their other racers continue to do so

And then they wonder why there's less and less people willing to volunteer when people post drivel like this

You should be absolutly ashamed of yourself - A total disgrace

Get off your backside and FIND OUT HOW YOUR HOBBY WORKS!

[Jim Spencer]

Right

Some facts

My Laps is Imported into the UK by Rob Nelson of BBK.

He offered to come to the AGM and explain the new system to those club and section officials who wanted to learn about it.
A gap was put in the training seminar on Saturday for Rob to give his presentation and he was in the foyer at the AGM yesterday.
Those of you who've been to the AGM a few times will have seen Rob doing this every year I can remember.


By all accounts it was very interesting.

It will raise some questions for all of us, the clubs (my home clubs just bought an RC3 system too) and the sections as well

However the BRCA (which is us all really) arn't consulted on any of My Laps R&D we hear about it when you hear about it - as we are You - there is no IT..

There is No Commission paid, they don't even advertise with us, they are a supplier to the RC industry just like any other.

This change will cost us all a few quid at some point i'm sure but personally AMB/My laps equipmenty I've always found to be a good product so I'll stick with it.

There has been some discussion about the MRT compatability, but I can understand why My Laps wouldn't even consider it - it's not their product why would they?
I suppose this is the risk we take in purchasing a cheaper alternative - at some point somebody is going to move the goalposts.

[fidspeed]

having just read Jims reply

i feel i need to reply

the issue for me is the backwards compatabilty if RC4 does not work with older style ambs as MAY be the case i am disappointed in mylaps/amb
i personally have 4

As a club we upgraded a while ago at a large cost from AMB 20 (our handout ambs are limping along ) to AMB Rc if this too becomes obselete i shall be very unhappy

This is all dependant on backward compatabilty remember fact or fiction we do not know enough yet

the MRT issue is another subject entirely

as an organiser (club level) and BRCA member for almost 20 years i feel i have enough experience for an opinion
our club is a social type club and we have never really got involved in regional or national event in any discipline and i have utmost respect and praise for those like jim who toil endlessly on our behalf

Im not sure what the end result will be i think it would be a bitter pill for a lot of AMb owners if ours became reduntant

again its IF

Dave Fiddling

[feniks]

as always AMB is after a lot of money again .
the MRT transponders have in most cases never gave problems to them using it . I have 2 clones and 2 original first version transponders of AMB . and sorry but they gave interfierence and mist more laps than my clone MRT ones .
in case of the harry's , I was at the euro's in austria when they first ware introduced and the gave a lot of problems aspecialy in a durango car . and for the moment they still do . as one of ower club members had a lot of problems with missing laps wile he was driving his durango and we putted the transponder all over the car to get it salvd . once he got his kyjojo car (FS2) all problems stopt and it never workt bether . as in the case of the MRT being cheaper sorry the 10 euro's that it costs me les I dont give a rats ars about that . we spend tons of monny on ower cars so that small bit more for a PT couldend care me les . I aswel as a lot of others got the MRT to send a signal out to AMB . that they are crap and that they exploit there richt as the sole company that can sel a systhem like this . I drive moddel cars for the last 18 years and have seen AMB do this over and over again . if this meens that I cant race cars no more at big races or small wel than that will be it bud realy I am sic of amb fuccing all the fun up again . If it aint broken dont fix it . as there is more to this new systhem than wat we all now . it also will send data out of the car as that was there oridginal idee behind this new systhem . if it actualy will work that I have no idee . enny way aslong as we will only have one company that has a systhem like this we are scruwed and it will always stay expensif for clubs aswell as drivers

[racingdwarf]

I do agree why are people so surprised AMB don't want to support MRT.

Other industrys spend millions on working out ways we can only use genuine products...printer cartridges, car parts, just a couple that spring to mind.

TBH the best thing they did for their bank account years ago was stop supporting handouts and make us all buy PT's, when you have an idea like that, the last thing you want to make easy is someone like MRT to cash in on your product.

until another firm comes up with a product that works and is supported as well as the AMB system we will stay with it......But if someone does come up with that system lets hope it works with AMB transponders or all hell would break loose:lol:

thing I have to say I'm not 100% clear on :blush:is the my laps and AMB, is my laps the computer program and AMB the decoder and transponders? I always thought rob imported AMB into the uk, does him import my laps to or are they one and the same?

[mark christopher]

This post really takes the pi55

The BRCA has NOTHING What so ever to do with My Laps.

agree and i also know a couple of years back the BRCA were asked to look into reliable alternatives, result, there was nothing else!

I do agree why are people so surprised AMB don't want to support MRT.

Other industrys spend millions on working out ways we can only use genuine products...printer cartridges, car parts, just a couple that spring to mind.

TBH the best thing they did for their bank account years ago was stop supporting handouts and make us all buy PT's, when you have an idea like that, the last thing you want to make easy is someone like MRT to cash in on your product.

until another firm comes up with a product that works and is supported as well as the AMB system we will stay with it......But if someone does come up with that system lets hope it works with AMB transponders or all hell would break loose:lol:

the systems we have work for all!!

[feniks]

and boys sorry to disepoint you bud between the lines AMB had an agreement with MRT about the clones and numbers they whare given to use .
also it is not alowd to make a systhem that works on the amb or would work the same beside amb as they have the sole richt for that product . and as far as I now that is actualy iligel in europe . we all now U cant make an exact coppy bud somthing that works on all systhems iseesnt exept in the case with AMB .

[cigbunt]

i think people should ask them selfs what are the benifits of upgrading the system i aint never seen "kers" on a rc car :woot:

[Jim Spencer]

thing I have to say I'm not 100% clear on :blush:is the my laps and AMB, is my laps the computer program and AMB the decoder and transponders? I always thought rob imported AMB into the uk, does him import my laps to or are they one and the same?

Hi

AMB changed it's name to MyLaps, they're one and the same company.

[john333]

i think people should ask them selfs what are the benifits of upgrading the system i aint never seen "kers" on a rc car :woot:

Spot on!! Lol

[Jim Spencer]

the issue for me is the backwards compatabilty if RC4 does not work with older style ambs as MAY be the case i am disappointed in mylaps/amb
i personally have 4

As a club we upgraded a while ago at a large cost from AMB 20 (our handout ambs are limping along ) to AMB Rc if this too becomes obselete i shall be very unhappy

This is all dependant on backward compatabilty remember fact or fiction we do not know enough yet


Hi

As fas as i'm aware, and i'm no expert on this, then there's no issues with backwards compatability - Yet.
I believe it's possible there will be in the future but for now all the digital transponders (the original PT, the red handouts & 'harrys' will work with the new system.
The issue might be is somebody buys one of the new Percy's(spl?) as that won't work with the old decoders until they have an upgrade - I think..

Either way at this precise moment in time there isn't a 'right now' issue we have to deal with.


The MRT clones are indeed a different problem - one I suspect for MRT to deal with..

[mark christopher]

Hi

As fas as i'm aware, and i'm no expert on this, then there's no issues with backwards compatability - Yet.
I believe it's possible there will be in the future but for now all the digital transponders (the original PT, the red handouts & 'harrys' will work with the new system.
The issue might be is somebody buys one of the new Percy's(spl?) as that won't work with the old decoders until they have an upgrade - I think..

Either way at this precise moment in time there isn't a 'right now' issue we have to deal with.


The MRT clones are indeed a different problem - one I suspect for MRT to deal with..


jim i carnt understand how the mrt is differentto the "old" amb bugs, mine are cloned to my original amb number, how does the sytem know its not an old amb but a mrt?

(apreciate your not the technical guy on this but at the moment your the only one making sence :woot:)

[Jim Spencer]

I think the issues we're seeing are because the product has evolved so much

The first system was actually developed specifically for RC cars (in case folks didn't know) it then moved into the full sized motorsport arena and Karting.

However the massive growth in sports timimg where handouts are impractical due to the sheer numbers involved (marathons, cycling etc) drove the products into the Personal Transponder route.

In short we're now riding on the back of the high volume market instead of being the people setting it.


Mark mentioned that the association exec were asked to find alternatives (By people who went to an AGM stuck their hand up and asked a question - some of whom then volunteered to do the leg work and find out)

The answer that came back was Yes there are alternatives - at least One that will work anyway - but it would require a Total change for us all as you can't mix types in a meeting, and there was little or no cost saving
(the same technology albeit with a different brand attached oddly costs roughly the same money..)

There have been lots of other methods tried and pretty much all have disapeared, so we have what we have, I'm not saying it's perfect though.


The current solution of MyLaps (AMB in old money) providing a neatly packaged, but costly solution - that MRT manage to provide an alternative for one part of - is basicaly as good as it gets.

Though perhaps this is an opportunity for MRT, or somebody else. to go back to basics?
If the mass market product has evolved to try and suit the runners and cyclists is there a niche for an RC Car racing only product again?

[badger5]

i think people should ask them selfs what are the benifits of upgrading the system i aint never seen "kers" on a rc car :woot:

You should check out the old Tekin 410 and 411 series of ESC's then, regenerative braking ohh yes. We had it years before F1!!!:woot:

[Jim Spencer]

jim i carnt understand how the mrt is differentto the "old" amb bugs, mine are cloned to my original amb number, how does the sytem know its not an old amb but a mrt?

(apreciate your not the technical guy on this but at the moment your the only one making sence :woot:)

Mark - dunno is the short answer

I believe it's something to do with the MyLaps ones transmitting some extra data that the old decoders didn't use (hence it not being there in the clones) but the new decoder does.

I'm also lead to beleive it will count a MRT bug, but with a very high missed lap count 1 out of 4 was mentioned, but I have no idea how accurate (inaccurate?) this is.

But either way, for now, at the average club, it's not going to be an issue is it?

It'll only be an issue realistically when you come to purchase a replacement PT for the one you're currently running - as these things take years to filter through the system - we've literally only just 'gone digital' at Crewe!


I won't be buying a new anything for ages, neither will you, we'll just wait and see what happens.
Long before I need a replacement it'll be blindingly obvious what'll work with what I'm sure.

[mark christopher]

Mark - dunno is the short answer

I believe it's something to do with the MyLaps ones transmitting some extra data that the old decoders didn't use (hence it not being there in the clones) but the new decoder does.

I'm also lead to beleive it will count a MRT bug, but with a very high missed lap count 1 out of 4 was mentioned, but I have no idea how accurate (inaccurate?) this is.

But either way, for now, at the average club, it's not going to be an issue is it?

It'll only be an issue realistically when you come to purchase a replacement PT for the one you're currently running - as these things take years to filter through the system - we've literally only just 'gone digital' at Crewe!


I won't be buying a new anything for ages, neither will you, we'll just wait and see what happens.
Long before I need a replacement it'll be blindingly obvious what'll work with what I'm sure.
cheers jim
what concerns me is the company (mylaps) and the presentation was done by somone who would not want to promote mrt and say they will work, bit like Mazda saying ford fiesta brake pads will fit our Mazda 2 cars and are cheaper!

[MattW]

The presentation was (it seems - I wasn't there) given by the UK distributor, and frankly it would seem he's the only person in the UK qualified to give it.

I'll not lie, from a business perspective if I was amb/mylaps I'd have changed something in the decoder firmware years ago to stop the MRT's working. It's not good for us racers (I have 2 MRT clones btw), but for them on a purely business view it's not good for someone else to be making transponders that work with their equipment.

[DaSloth]

i have to agree with Mark, im suprised to see MRT's wont work, if the older style red AMB's will. Maybe its just a marketing ploy by MyLaps to start scarring people into not buying MRTs ;)

I would guess we (the clubs) all need an update to BBK to support the 8 digit PTs too, lets hope that doesn't come at a cost!

[cigbunt]

i have to agree with Mark, im suprised to see MRT's wont work, if the older style red AMB's will. Maybe its just a marketing ploy by MyLaps to start scarring people into not buying MRTs ;)

I would guess we (the clubs) all need an update to BBK to support the 8 digit PTs too, lets hope that doesn't come at a cost!

why?

why not just stay on the old system? it'll help new racers get in to the sport as the pt cost will come down.

it all sounds overkill i dont see what the point of spending money on something that seems to work anyways..

[Mark A]

A right can of worms
Simply my laps need to re-think the system changes F1 and rc can't be more different, 213 clubs and over 5000 members plus owners of 2 or more PT's
the answer to the sum is a yacht in the south of France at our expense .
I'm running on a very tight budget as is and this extra cost is stupid

We all need to stand up and be counted and say NO

[knighthawk]

On another note !

BBK's new price on a Harry PT is £76

BBK offer a trade-in for the old PT's , your old PT + £42 ( that works out at approx 45% trade-in cost )

Now MyLaps offer a 60% Discount

Are we getting stung again ?

[mark christopher]

I have been in contact with the MRT guys and have a reply, mrt will look into it when the full info is available

[Jim Spencer]

why not just stay on the old system? it'll help new racers get in to the sport as the pt cost will come down.

it all sounds overkill i dont see what the point of spending money on something that seems to work anyways..

That's the stance I would recommend for the club I race at - what we have works, it'll work well for years - if anybody walks in with a 'percy' they can borrow a hand out!

[jimbot]

This may not be popular but MRT have caused a lot of headache for clubs trying to run a meeting with 70+ drivers with most of those drivers booking in on the day.
We don't have time to go through the data and check for transponder clashes.
Also in 1/8 we run bump ups again this slows down or may have stopped finals wiliest race control sorts out clashing issues.
So this MRT problem needs looking at having 10~20 numbers with most racers not knowing what there number is NOT THE WAY FORWARD.
If you are running a small club meeting with fewer than 60 drivers you will not be pushed for time they (MRT) are great.
My advice is buy harrys if you can.
Jim

[mikeyscott]

This may not be popular but MRT have caused a lot of headache for clubs trying to run a meeting with 70+ drivers with most of those drivers booking in on the day.
We don't have time to go through the data and check for transponder clashes.
Also in 1/8 we run bump ups again this slows down or may have stopped finals wiliest race control sorts out clashing issues.
So this MRT problem needs looking at having 10~20 numbers with most racers not knowing what there number is NOT THE WAY FORWARD.
If you are running a small club meeting with fewer than 60 drivers you will not be pushed for time they (MRT) are great.
My advice is buy harrys if you can.
Jim

As someone who runs a club - 100% agree with the above.

I do NOT recommend MRTs

I have a busy enough time and don't need to be correcting clashes or teach people how to use the MRT.

Personally I had an AMB, got it cloned to a MRT. So I still retained the number, then got a clash?? Binned both for 2 x Harry's and job done.

[Crazy L]

I do NOT recommend MRTs

What about BDSM? is that recommended? lol, just trying to lighten the mood :lol:

[cigbunt]

As someone who runs a club - 100% agree with the above.

I do NOT recommend MRTs

i dont run a club but in my mind its the software thats not doing its job if you have to manually find clashes..

[john333]

I may well be wrong here but surely mrt have clashes only when the secondary numbers are used? (The 10 or 20 "extra" ones built in) I thought these would be random but it appears many, if not all have the SAME extra numbers built in.

I know they are cloned from old amb's so there will be a few out there with the same "primary" number, but I would have thought the chance of those coming together at the same meeting remote?

[feniks]

in the old days we had to look at frequencies for the trannies and even that got sorted in the program so I now the program in ower club finds the problem with PT's aswell . so cant imagine it would be more dificult than 15 years ago when we ran meetings with 150 drivers and hand out transponders .
I do agree if U bye your first PT get an original if U need more later on get it cloned . cheaper and works far bether than the originel one and you still have your own PT number .
bud doot agree on the harry's or the new thing thats coming . the old original one was fine so leave it at that we dont need more with RC cars

[alteredoggy]

maybe we should all still be running 1200 cells and silvercan motors?
NO?
no because technology moved on and everybody bought new stuff
how many buy the latest car as soon as it comes out? speedo , that new motor because it is just that tiny bit faster?
i have 3 origional AMB pts, there probably 10 years old now, i dont have any other gear that old
so if they dont work with the new system then i guess they had a good run
time to upgrade
keep 1 for club racing if needed and trade in others

oh and if you buy cheap pattern parts, you cant expect them to be as compatable as an original. can you??

[mikeyscott]

I may well be wrong here but surely mrt have clashes only when the secondary numbers are used? (The 10 or 20 "extra" ones built in) I thought these would be random but it appears many, if not all have the SAME extra numbers built in.

I know they are cloned from old amb's so there will be a few out there with the same "primary" number, but I would have thought the chance of those coming together at the same meeting remote?

Had enough this year to cause enough of a headache. Prob 10+ meetings with a wide range of drivers from a large geographic area.

Up until this year I had not seen that many clashes.

[Si Coe]

BBK tells you when a newly entered transponder clashes with one already in the database.

[Col]

I've never seen a clash. Ever.
Must be alot of people buying and selling alot of gear down south?

[chuckie stella]

I've never seen a clash. Ever.
Must be alot of people buying and selling alot of gear down south?

I can count the clashes we've had at the Stone on one hand. Not a big deal in my opinion!

As ever, spend, spend, spend on all the latest cars, speedo and other stuff etc, but when costs that mean we can actually race go up then the world ends. It's the same when a clubs rent is put up and race fees increased, the CLUB must be getting greedy.

This wont be popular, but if my business was being ripped off I'd do exactly the same. This is coming from someone who runs a club (dear to his heart) and knew about this when recently investing in our new system.

Matt Owen

[Jason A]

I really don't see what the big issue is ??

The guys at MRT have already said not to worry and if there is an issue then can fix it but will not be able to do it untill RC4 is actually released

So anyone wanting to keep your existing mrt are safe for now.

Bbk software will except your mrt in a trade for a new Harry and you only got pay £42 so again not really a massive one

Or sell you mrt to someone else and again upgrade to Harry.

Everyone is on a win win situation here other than a few that seem to be blowing this totaly out proportion to what's actually happening ??

And btw I have 2 mrts in my cars
Used for 3 years
I have raced micros,1/8 rallyx,1/10 2wd and 4wd from club to national events north and south and yet to have a number clash :-)

Change is always difficult but let's remember the fun times we have racing :-)

[jo90]

It's about time MRT came out with their own decoder and race software, that would be great. :D

Your right, bu then you have the additional dilema of another counting system. You tyhen go to a club that isnt running it, does your bug count laps ?

I think the best route right now is for racers to wait for something official, and then discuss rather than flame. It won't get anyone anywhere right now.

[mark christopher]

I think those coming down on MRT have missed the point, my MRT bugs are all clones of my one number, no clashes at all, met have made them affordable to ALL racers and you can repair the wire, and MRT the unit, which is far more than mylaps/amb do......

[mark christopher]

Your right, bu then you have the additional dilema of another counting system. You tyhen go to a club that isnt running it, does your bug count laps ?

I think the best route right now is for racers to wait for something official, and then discuss rather than flame. It won't get anyone anywhere right now.

If it were to happen and it read all pt, then problem solved ;)

[ollie]

After talking to Rob of BBK my understanding of the situation is this;

1) If you have an MRT transponder then you may have an issue with the new system.
However people have reported on here that MRT have the situation under control so fine there.

2) If you have an AMB transponder then you will be fine as the new system will work with all the personal transponders made by AMB.

However the new Percy transponder will not work with the older timing systems so advice would be to wait till clubs etc. move on to this before getting one.

When the new system is available to all the benefit will be that the transponder will have 2 extra numbers allowing them to be used in 2 cars i.e. 2wd/4wd, dry weather chassis set-up/ wet weather chassis set-up etc.

If you already have the Harry then it will work better with the new system so all fine there also.

[mark christopher]

After talking to Rob of BBK my understanding of the situation is this;

1) If you have an MRT transponder then you may have an issue with the new system.
However people have reported on here that MRT have the situation under control so fine there.

2) If you have an AMB transponder then you will be fine as the new system will work with all the personal transponders made by AMB.

However the new Percy transponder will not work with the older timing systems so advice would be to wait till clubs etc. move on to this before getting one.

When the new system is available to all the benefit will be that the transponder will have 2 extra numbers allowing them to be used in 2 cars i.e. 2wd/4wd, dry weather chassis set-up/ wet weather chassis set-up etc.

If you already have the Harry then it will work better with the new system so all fine there also.
so you can have a few transponders with the same number, now who does that all ready;)

[knighthawk]

If you have an AMB transponder then you will be fine as the new system will work with all the personal transponders made by AMB.

However the new Percy transponder will not work with the older timing systems so advice would be to wait till clubs etc. move on to this before getting one.

When the new system is available to all the benefit will be that the transponder will have 2 extra numbers allowing them to be used in 2 cars i.e. 2wd/4wd, dry weather chassis set-up/ wet weather chassis set-up etc.

If you already have the Harry then it will work better with the new system so all fine there also.
I agree with this statement, but lets be honest here, i'm ok because I now only really race at club level.

But it's the main BRCA events this will affect as they will update their systems first, the clubs will stay with theolder systems as if it ain't broke why change !

The problem as I see it is this, potentially the drivers who wish's to drive at club and national level may have to have 2 transponders !!

[mikeyscott]

I've never seen a clash. Ever.
Must be alot of people buying and selling alot of gear down south?

Quite probably.

I also know there is prob an element of "PT management" with these people.

[john333]

Like I said previously, it's when the extra numbers you get with the mrt are used is when clashes will occur. I borrowed one from a friend to do a regional while mine was in the post, when it arrived the alternative numbers on both were the same! So feasibly it looks like bloody loads of people will have the same number IF they change from the main one supplied.

[skiv]

I think the difference between the Percy and the MRT with same number cloned is, you could technically run 2 percy's with the same number in the same race and they will count independantly, the MRT wont do that.

My annoyance is, we were sold the Harry's with the suggestion that they would have the extra digit ability so we could have multiple Harry's with the same number but recognised differently... Is that still the case.

So, if no club upgrades the firmware in their box to count the new percy, or clubs don't upgrade to the latest box, and noone buys percy's, where does that leave us... Ah just where we are with systems that work and race meetings that count. Seems crazy the Percy doesn't have a fall back and still count on an older system. Didnt first digital personals work with older systems just using the last digit as their race number, at least they still counted.

RC Timing does have transponder clash checking in their latest version too.

[skiv]

Personally I had an AMB, got it cloned to a MRT. So I still retained the number, then got a clash?? Binned both for 2 x Harry's and job done.

This is the scenario I most worry about, the assumption was that if you owned an AMB, got it cloned, you were the only one with that number on 2 PT's, so you aren't going to be vigilent in checking race listings for clashes, so a clash here is a surprise.

[Jim Spencer]

[QUOTE=knighthawk;708842]IBut it's the main BRCA events this will affect as they will update their systems first, the clubs will stay with theolder systems as if it ain't broke why change ![QUOTE]

Why?
I don't know of any section that's discussed this yet let alone had a vote on it - the section committe's will only react when the majority of their drivers want them to, a new decoder is a major investment for a section and not all of them have their own kit in any case.

[Robbiejuk]

Like I said previously, it's when the extra numbers you get with the mrt are used is when clashes will occur. I borrowed one from a friend to do a regional while mine was in the post, when it arrived the alternative numbers on both were the same! So feasibly it looks like bloody loads of people will have the same number IF they change from the main one supplied.

We had that recently at our club, two MRTs running exactly the same number. BBK put the second person with the same number onto a handout transponder. Unfortunatley the second person didn't realise as you wouldn't really check on the heat sheet because you have booked in with a personal transponder number and so none of his laps were counted for his first race. Ok so this was a club race and he pressed the button on his MRT and we used the alternative number for the rest of the night. Obviously this could cause a problem during the race, as no errant pt number was flagged it couldn't assigned to a driver and essentially you have two Transponders on the track which both have the same number and if they were circulating apart from each other outside the minimum lap time someone could get some really quick laps :lol:. The other thing is that BBK could throw someones number out and out them onto a handout transponder when sorting out finals meaning you could start the A final and not count any laps through no fault of your own, and considering that most competitions stance are that if your PT doesn't count it's your responsibility and not the race organisers.

The thing that worrys me is when I went to another club to race, first time I had been there so I gave the details of My original AMB PT which I have had since they first came out and the computer flagged up that someone was already in the database with that number? Now why would that happen? I have never sent my PT off for cloning, never sent off for repair, and never lent my PT to anybody so how could this other person have the same exact number as my PT? Sounds like someone is churning out transponders with numbers that they have made up or have copied from some list somewhere. :eh?:

[knighthawk]

But it's the main BRCA events this will affect as they will update their systems first, the clubs will stay with the older systems as if it ain't broke why change ![QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jim Spencer;708888]Why?
I don't know of any section that's discussed this yet let alone had a vote on it - the section committe's will only react when the majority of their drivers want them to, a new decoder is a major investment for a section and not all of them have their own kit in any case.

What i mean is that if any change is to happen its more lightly that it will be at a National type event run by the BRCA ( this is not a dig ) !
Your normal club will stay with the older system due to the cost !

[racingdwarf]

There will really be no problem apart from possibly MRT's. as the new system looks from reading this thred as if it will support all exsisting AMB PT's, so all good there then:D The only problem will possibly come if you wish or have to buy a new transponder as the percy will not work with anything but the new system.So the demand for second hand harrys may well rise as a new percy will not work at club level racing for a few years, as many small clubs will be in no rush to have a spend and upgrade, and how long will harrys be available new? I can't see a huge rush on part exchanging harrys for percys:eh?:

If a club buys a new complete system along with say ten percy transponders to sell to club members at a subsidised price,then yes there could be a problem if all the other clubs are using the old system.

Here in darkest norfolk I think due to the size of our clubs we will be on harrys for many years yet as the clubs supply the lap timing for our regionals unless we rob a bank and buy the east of england it's own system.other clubs with much higher numbers may well be supporting percys within the next few months.

So really the big question for many club racers will be how long will harrys be avalable new before the percy is the only choice?

[fidspeed]

So really the big question for many club racers will be how long will harrys be avalable new before the percy is the only choice?


spot on fella

dave fid

[SlowOne]

After talking to Rob of BBK my understanding of the situation is this;

1) If you have an MRT transponder then you may have an issue with the new system.
However people have reported on here that MRT have the situation under control so fine there.

2) If you have an AMB transponder then you will be fine as the new system will work with all the personal transponders made by AMB.

However the new Percy transponder will not work with the older timing systems so advice would be to wait till clubs etc. move on to this before getting one.

When the new system is available to all the benefit will be that the transponder will have 2 extra numbers allowing them to be used in 2 cars i.e. 2wd/4wd, dry weather chassis set-up/ wet weather chassis set-up etc.

If you already have the Harry then it will work better with the new system so all fine there also.89 posts and only one with any facts in that have been checked with the source. :wtf:

Had an AMB since they first came out, never had a problem with it. Had an MRT with the same number as the AMB since they first came out - no problems. Just putting some more facts out there... ;)

[mark christopher]

here is another fact pete

dont update the amd/loop bit, all works as is now

[fidspeed]

So all is well ......... Until Harry's are no longer available !

thats fine if the harry's are going to be produced for lets say 5 years if AMB decide to cease production at the end of 2013 problems may occur,existing owners will be fine , new owners will only be able to purchase percys which if i am correct wont work with RC3 most clubs and regions wont have have bothered to upgrade yet because of the numbers of existing owners it could cause problems for

will that put the value of s/h bugs up amb/mrt ? will will see more clones /clashes ?

this is pure conjecture, no hard facts , no asassination threats on anyone
just an opinion in the nicest possible way

just re read racing dwarfs post i appear to have covered most of it again doh !!

regards to fellow ooplers

[Si Coe]

I considered that, then realised that it makes no sense from Mylaps point of view. If they stopped making Harry's but most clubs were still on RC3 all that would happen is people would switch to MRT's. Remember its cheaper to buy an MRT than a Harry as it is.

It makes no business sense to switch until a good number of clubs run RC4. Thats why they are offering a few upgrade to RC4. Lets be honest, if it wasn't for the MRT issue why wouldn't a club upgrade? Its free, futureproof and supposed to be better.

[snail speed]

If the older transponders get missed laps with ne w decoder isnt this a software problem

[Chequered Flag Racing]

posted on FB by Rob Nelson
https://www.facebook.com/groups/455453997830893/

if you not on FB
A new RC Transponder from Mylaps
Also demonstrated the day before the BRCA 2012 AGM was the Mylaps Pure RC4 transponder, nickname Purcy. This transponder builds on the functionality of the Harry transponder in two ways. Firstly it replaces the RC2 data packets with RC4 data packets, further improving reliability and accuracy. It also incorporates a CarID signal. This allows a driver to have a number of transponders with the same 7 digit number but an additional number 0-7. Timing software will be able to treat the transponders as being associated with the same car but crucially will be able to confirm that only a single transponder was used in a session to be absolutely certain that no false times could have been recorded by using an additional transponder outside the car.

It is important to be aware that the Purcy transponder can ONLY be detected by the RC4 Firmware and so it will not replace the Harry. If you have a Purcy it will NOT be detected by the RC Decoder and RC3 Decoder Firmware. Exact price and availability of the Purcy is to be confirmed but price is anticipated to be approximately 10% cheaper than Harry. 29th October 2012

and

RC4 Decoder
The RC4 Decoder uses the same physical decoder as the latest RC3 Decoders with updated firmware. The Firmware update, expected to be available by the end of November, is a free download. To get the download you will have to register the Mac address and you will receive a program to run on your PC with the Decoder connected. This program updates the decoder. Full details of this process will be available soon.

If you have an older RC3 Decoder (purchased in 2006 or early 2007) or the previous RC Decoder you will have to upgrade the decoder. This will cost £415 including VAT and shipping in the UK. The updated Decoders are expected to be available in early December. If you upgrade your Decoder you will be able to purchase up to 5 Pure RC4 Transponders (Purcy) at about half the normal retail price (TBA).

If you have an RC3 Decoder purchased in 2006-2007 please email the Mac address to us and we'll advise if you need to update the Decoder. The Mac address is printed on the bottom or the decoder and starts EA: 00-04-B7-xx-xx-xx. If you can't read it you can display the Mac address of a powered RC3 Decoder on the LCD screen by pressing the left hand button twice. 1st November 2012

[skiv]

Seems crazy to have not built backwards compatibility.

Why not cancel the Harry, bring out the Purcy that works on both systems, with limited functionality on the old systems and full functionality on the new system.

A new driver to the sport knows they are buying something that works everywhere whichever level of system they are at.

As i read the first sales paperwork from the BBK website when the Harry came out, it appeared the Harry would have this extra digit for personal id with the same number but it seems this was a whole new product rather than an addition to the current. Feeling a little mislead about that.

Didn't need to upgrade my old PT's they worked, thought i was getting a new future proof product that would last as long as the previous one, with the ability to have "clones" down the road...

[Dave Dodd]

I do hope mrt get this sorted, as i conducted a poll via our website and out of the 44 votes, 17 are mrt's.... :cry:

i use an old amb pt with the lugs attached.. would this still work ?

[racingdwarf]

yes as far as I understand it the new system will support all existing AMB PT's

If they do carry on selling harrys then their is no probs:D, seems strange tho as tbh there seem little advantage in puying a percy? if a harry works with every system and the percy works with only the latest:eh?: also the latest tech is cheeper than the old by 10%?

If the harry is going to be available for years to come...no probs all good apart from MRT users there is no real change.....

[mark christopher]

posted on FB by Rob Nelson
https://www.facebook.com/groups/455453997830893/

if you not on FB


and


the only thing is all this info is coming from "mylaps" via the uk distributor, for all we know the mrt could work and its a sales tactic to panic mrt owners!

if clubs dont upgrade everything works as it is now!

[Si Coe]

the only thing is all this info is coming from "mylaps" via the uk distributor, for all we know the mrt could work and its a sales tactic to panic mrt owners!

if clubs dont upgrade everything works as it is now!

Until people turn up with Percy's and find they don't work!


I must admit I'm kinda figuring the same thing here. Mylaps aren't going to advertise MRT compatibility and if some scaremongering sells a few more Harrys/Percys its all good for business......

[Coastal]

Seems crazy to have not built backwards compatibility.

Why not cancel the Harry, bring out the Purcy that works on both systems, with limited functionality on the old systems and full functionality on the new system.

A new driver to the sport knows they are buying something that works everywhere whichever level of system they are at.

As i read the first sales paperwork from the BBK website when the Harry came out, it appeared the Harry would have this extra digit for personal id with the same number but it seems this was a whole new product rather than an addition to the current. Feeling a little mislead about that.

Didn't need to upgrade my old PT's they worked, thought i was getting a new future proof product that would last as long as the previous one, with the ability to have "clones" down the road...

And to others who have posted - PLEASE READ THE FACTS the new system is backward compatible and will work with all amb digital transponders, from the red handouts, 3 lug personal & Harry Transponders also the new Pure personal transponders.
The new pure personal transponders will not work with older decoders.

Why do so many people post on hearsay?

There are at least two posts on here were the posters have actually contacted the UK importer as I have and have asked the questions and got answers and have posted the response.

Remember we all used AMB20 analogue transponders, before that pen & paper, push button electronic timers, basic lap counting software on computers, still pressing numbers manually. Shall we go back to those systems?
The world evolves as does timing equipment

[Si Coe]

If the new PT won't work with the old decoders its not backwards compatible. Thats kinda what it means!
Yes you can use old AMB/Mylaps PT's with the new system (although possibly not MRT's) so in that direction its backwards compatible but since you need to upgrade for the Percy PT its not fully.

Yes, timing gear moves on - but there is a big difference here. The past systems were a matter for clubs and each change was paid for from club funds. Here the issue is with PERSONAL transponders ie owned by individual racers. Now if you own an MRT PT right now you should be pretty peeved because your PT could possibly become useless when this change happens. OK, so it won't affect AMB/Mylaps owners and new Percy owners will be dead pleased, but some racers are potentially going to be forced to buy new PT's from this.

Of course its true MRT might be able to fix their PT's to work with the new system, but its still annoying having to send to to be updated.

[SlowOne]

Whilst it is true that the Purcy might not be backwards compatible, I can't see how those with MRT transponders can complain. MRT copied the AMB system of signalling, and don't own or lead the design of the system.

Like any 'copied' design it gets superseded. Trying to eliminate the competition is something the market does all the time, so if you buy a 'copy' that's the risk you take. You can hardly blame AMB for trying to put a competitor at a disadvantage!

MRT users bought a copy; this is what is likely to happen; suck it up!

[knighthawk]

I agree with SlowOne on this...

With all electronics, racers say buy the best you can, ie Futaba / KO / Sanwa
Your buying the quality and the years of development.

Now you can go out a buy a Cheap BlueBird Servo for £10, it's a servo and does what a servo is meant to do, but it will fail due to it being a cheap copy of proven quality products..

MRT done what it said on the tin, cheap item for the job
MyLaps have the right to close a loop hole which MRT have exploited

[Si Coe]

Except quite a lot of the MRT's in use are cloned from the same owners AMB. Thats a feature AMB did not offer (until Percy) so if you wanted multiple PT's on the same number MRT wasn't the 'copy' but the only option.
Of those who had the AMB's cloned, some now only run the MRT clone, the AMB having long since died since unlike the AMB's you can have the refitted with new leads etc.
MRT's aren't just copies - they offered things AMB did not.

[knighthawk]

Except quite a lot of the MRT's in use are cloned from the same owners AMB. Thats a feature AMB did not offer (until Percy) so if you wanted multiple PT's on the same number MRT wasn't the 'copy' but the only option.
Of those who had the AMB's cloned, some now only run the MRT clone, the AMB having long since died since unlike the AMB's you can have the refitted with new leads etc.
MRT's aren't just copies - they offered things AMB did not.


I agree with the need to want all your cars on one number, something MyLaps said they would offer with the Harry.
But for what ever reason it hasn't happened.

But I used to have all my PC's on one Windows Copy with a hack with allowed it to be authenticated, but Microsoft closed this loophole, the same applies here unfortunately.

Unless MRT can overcome this issue then MRT users will have to buy new transponders, again unfortunately its that simple

[mark christopher]

my mrt is a replacement for my amb which suffered a broken wire, amb offered no customer support and told me to buy a new one which the same could happen again, mrt far surpassed them.

[MattW]

I've got this really revolutionary idea for everyone. Let's wait and see what actually happens.....

[mikeyscott]

I've got this really revolutionary idea for everyone. Let's wait and see what actually happens.....

What a brilliant idea lol :)

We all have our views, I have had probs with MRT, others haven't and so forth.

[mark christopher]

Pure RC4 (Purcy) UK Pricing
Prices from January 1st 2013 are as follows:

Purcy without clip £65
Purcy x 3 with clips £194
...Purcy x 6 with clips £378
Purcy x 10 with clips £612
We expect to have the Purcy on sale by the end of November from stock. Until the end of December prices will be approximately 5% less than the above list. While Purcys without CarID will be available from stock, if you require additional Purcys with the same 7 digit number these will be available to order. Purcy with Car ID 1-7 will be the same price as Purcy without Car ID. Please note that Purcy will ONLY work with RC4 firmware Decoders. When we feature Purcy on the sales page there will be a link to a list of Clubs who have RC4 firmware Decoders. Right now that list is empty.:woot:

[knighthawk]

Right now that list is empty.:woot:

Bit Obvious this one as it's not been released yet :lol:

RC4 Decoder
The RC4 Decoder uses the same physical decoder as the latest RC3 Decoders with updated firmware. The Firmware update, expected to be available by the end of November, is a free download. To get the download you will have to register the Mac address and you will receive a program to run on your PC with the Decoder connected. This program updates the decoder. Full details of this process will be available soon.

[skiv]

And to others who have posted - PLEASE READ THE FACTS the new system is backward compatible and will work with all amb digital transponders, from the red handouts, 3 lug personal & Harry Transponders also the new Pure personal transponders.
The new pure personal transponders will not work with older decoders.

Why do so many people post on hearsay?

Thanks for the quote, and as the SiCoe suggested I was talking about the Purcy not being backward compatible, where when we last switched systems the new transponders did work with the old system although only the last digit of the number was recognised.

So not really any hearsay going on there, the facts were read understood and quoted.

The facts still are that the RC4 system will only fully work with the purcy, but a club that switches to RC4 will still be able to count all amb/mylaps transponders, and probably mrt too, but we wont know until it is tested, as said before could be scaremongering. BUT a driver who buys a purcy will have to check the list of no clubs (at the moment) before their laps will count.

I was just suggesting what might have been a better use of the purcy only needing to stock one transponder and it would count everywhere.

As said above, we just have to wait and see what happens, but at the moment no club i know is going to upgrade their firmware.

Sounds like good news that we don't have to send the box to BBK for firmware upgrade though, if/when we want it.

[SlowOne]

Except quite a lot of the MRT's in use are cloned from the same owners AMB. Thats a feature AMB did not offer (until Percy) so if you wanted multiple PT's on the same number MRT wasn't the 'copy' but the only option.
Of those who had the AMB's cloned, some now only run the MRT clone, the AMB having long since died since unlike the AMB's you can have the refitted with new leads etc.
MRT's aren't just copies - they offered things AMB did not.Sorry Si for not making myself clear. MRTs are not cloned from AMBs. They are copies able to deal with the AMB signalling system that are programmed with a number you give them. As it happens, MRT did what AMB did not - allowed repairs and changes of wire, made them more reliable, and allowed you to have more than one with the same number.

The fact remains that the system of signalling was developed at their expense by AMB and copied by MRT. In that respect we MRT users can expect no allowance from AMB when they update their product, we just have to suck up whatever the situation is.

One thing I can't get away from - as a new product launch designed to attract people to upgrade their lap-counting and spend some money with AMB, this ranks alongside 'new' Coke and Toyota accelerator pedals as a PR disaster!

Like Matt, I'll wait and see....

[Si Coe]

One thing I can't get away from - as a new product launch designed to attract people to upgrade their lap-counting and spend some money with AMB, this ranks alongside 'new' Coke and Toyota accelerator pedals as a PR disaster!


Not really - at the end of the day a high proportion of racers exhibit serious magpie like behaviour and will no doubt be pre-ordering Percy's because they are new and fancy even though no clubs can currently run them.

We are ridiculous 'bandwagon' jumpers to a man - just look at the current fashion for +8mm chassis. Notice its got to be 8mm longer - no more no less - regardless of the original length. 8mm longer is cool, even when its actually not as good on your clubs tight twisty track!

Percy's will be released, the magpies will buy, then moan the clubs into going RC4 and the rest of us will have to fit in. Such is the real nature of this hobby.

[MattW]

Really?? I don't know a single person who looked at the RC3/Harry transponder and thought "do you know what, that looks so much better than the transponder that I have - I must buy one". If they didn't then, I don't see why they will with RC4.

Maybe the people I race with aren't normal!! well........;)

[dale]

It's a free firmware upgrade from an RC3 to the RC4, allowing clubs with an RC3 to upgrade and run Purcy transponders for zero outlay.

But there are lots of clubs still running the original AMBrc box (the original boxes with a working USB port and no Ethernet), which can't be upgraded via firmware. For these clubs its a £415 hardware upgrade, which a lot of them can't afford.

And until every club you race at has upgraded to an RC4 box/firmware, there's no point buying a Purcy transponder. I assume AMB/Mylaps will continue to make the Harry transponder for the forseeable future. If not there will be a lot of sales going MRTs way, as it's likely to be many years (decades?) before all clubs have switched to the RC4.

[Chequered Flag Racing]

Price for the new Purcy on the website

http://www.bbksoftware.com/

[mark christopher]

Glen try reading post 110 mate lol

[SlowOne]

Really?? I don't know a single person who looked at the RC3/Harry transponder and thought "do you know what, that looks so much better than the transponder that I have - I must buy one". If they didn't then, I don't see why they will with RC4.

Maybe the people I race with aren't normal!! well........;)Agree with you, can't find a single person who automatically upgraded their transponder when Harry came out. In terms of value, Purcy is no faster, no better and no cheaper and RC4 is backwards compatible to my current kit. Explain to me again why I'd want one...? I'll stick with the idea that we are the normal ones!! :D

[mark christopher]

Agree with you, can't find a single person who automatically upgraded their transponder when Harry came out. In terms of value, Purcy is no faster, no better and no cheaper and RC4 is backwards compatible to my current kit. Explain to me again why I'd want one...? I'll stick with the idea that we are the normal ones!! :D
can i join your club pete? :woot:

[knighthawk]

Agree with you, can't find a single person who automatically upgraded their transponder when Harry came out. In terms of value, Purcy is no faster, no better and no cheaper and RC4 is backwards compatible to my current kit. Explain to me again why I'd want one...? I'll stick with the idea that we are the normal ones!! :D

Yes and NO, When the Harry's came out I traded my AMBrc PT in for a Harry for the size was easier to install in my Losi 8 EU Radio RX Box.

If the MyLaps Purcy worked on the RC3 Decoder's then I'd be putting an order in with BBK Software !

4 x Purcy's ( with same ID Car No.1-4 ) ( For me Dad )
2 x Purcy's ( with same ID Car No.1-2 ) ( For my Eldest son )
2 x Purcy's ( with same ID Car No.1-2 ) ( For my Youngest Son )

I would be willing to pay the £65 each less any Multiple Discount and any Trade-in Offers from BBK.

I do like the MRT offer of cloning and having all my cars on the same number !

But, and this is a Big But, I Would rather stay with individual PT than buy an item which is counterfeit and may stop working without warning, like when I turn up at a meeting only to be told the MRT bug won't count as the club has upgraded to RC4 Firmware

[SlowOne]

Where is the evidence that an MRT transponder won't work with RC4? If RC4 is backwards compatible to all other personal transponders, how does that exclude the MRTs?

Somehow, I am not sure any club will upgrade if it means they are landing their members with a £75 bill to continue racing. The words from AMB state plainly that is not the case.

I mean this with love and no side whatsoever - if you can afford to spend over £400 on bugs, then you aren't living in my world. That's a season's running costs for me and an amount I think hard about how I will spend. Two new transponders would add 30%+ to that bill. It's not viable for me...

Well done for being that good at whatever you do to afford that sort of outlay (I mean that, no sarcasm or deprecation intended or implied) but please accept that this situation isn't usual for people like Matt, Mark and me. :)

As we have said, let's wait and see...

[knighthawk]

Like i've tried to say, if Purcy's worked on RC3 Decoder's
!
I have 8 AMB/MyLaps PT's all with different numbers !

When the clubs upgrade ( which I can't see anytime soon as there is no need ) then I would sell/trade these 8 to buy 3 sets of new Purcy's !


But again I will state I won't even consider any change until the Purcy's work where every I go to race !

And £400, sorry but it wouldn't be this due to trade in's or sales.

And new kits are near this price and people don't blink at having the newest and latest kit on the block even if its £100 more than other manufactures !

Ask yourself this question?
If you want to race and if you have to change to the Purcy, you will !!

[SlowOne]

I race 12th because a new kit is needed once in a blue moon, and they are about £200. I've upgraded my car for half that each of the last two seasons. A complete suspension renewal costs about £20 and a diff rebuild costs... nothing to £8. It's one reason I don't do other classes, they are not value for my available money. And I won't have to upgrade my PT as AMB say that my current one will work on RC4.

If I absolutely had to, I probably would, but it would only be one and something else would have to give. Like I said, not in your world...

[knighthawk]

Not in my world, your breathing the same air and paying the same tax's

12th scale, I tried that, the tyre cost alone made me change my mind on that class !

I race and have two kids, my budget is very small chap !
But if I had to change my PT's to continue racing and make my life easier, then yes I would, that's my point !

Quoting your not in my world, sorry but what does that really mean, RC is a hobby and is expensive, end of.

[Coastal]

Except quite a lot of the MRT's in use are cloned from the same owners AMB. Thats a feature AMB did not offer (until Percy) so if you wanted multiple PT's on the same number MRT wasn't the 'copy' but the only option.
Of those who had the AMB's cloned, some now only run the MRT clone, the AMB having long since died since unlike the AMB's you can have the refitted with new leads etc.
MRT's aren't just copies - they offered things AMB did not.

You can replace the wires in AMB/Mylaps transponder - just Google it;)

I did and have replaced the wires on one of my AMB PT'S and it works fine:thumbsup:

[Coastal]

Thanks for the quote, and as the SiCoe suggested I was talking about the Purcy not being backward compatible, where when we last switched systems the new transponders did work with the old system although only the last digit of the number was recognised.

So not really any hearsay going on there, the facts were read understood and quoted.

The facts still are that the RC4 system will only fully work with the purcy, but a club that switches to RC4 will still be able to count all amb/mylaps transponders, and probably mrt too, but we wont know until it is tested, as said before could be scaremongering. BUT a driver who buys a purcy will have to check the list of no clubs (at the moment) before their laps will count.

I was just suggesting what might have been a better use of the purcy only needing to stock one transponder and it would count everywhere.

As said above, we just have to wait and see what happens, but at the moment no club i know is going to upgrade their firmware.

Sounds like good news that we don't have to send the box to BBK for firmware upgrade though, if/when we want it.

So I have a PSone and a PS2, do I expect PS3 games to work in them, does anyone:confused:
I have a Hobbywing V2.1 ESC and a HW V3 ESC can I run V3 firmware on my V2.1? No because the V3 has more memory in the chip.

Technology moves on and cannot always be backwards compatabile.

It always amazes me how everyone moans when they might have to spend some money on an item that will help the club they run at. The difficulty in getting drivers to part with a small amount for their club membership always amazes me, yet the same people will think nothing in spending ££££££'s on new motors or batteries or tyres etc. BBK will upgrade your MRT transponder to a mylaps one for a little over £40 - not bad.

As for the cost of the new decoder, bear this in mind if your current AMBrc decoder stops working the replacement cost to the club will be £2,400 (for an RC3 or RC4 decoder) or you could upgrade now for £415 and get a 3 year warranty.
How many clubs can afford £2,400? how many can afford £415?

I hope MRT will be able to come up with a solution, but until the new decoder is available and tested who knows whether they will work or not or whether they ever can be made to work

[blue_pinky]

My bet would be the MRT working fine on the RC4's. On the grounds that the current ones work with current kit, and the technology being used isn't THAT clever that it can tell what brand of PT is flashing past the loop.

Add to that...this is an AMB development and announcement that's being discussed. Why would AMB confirm or deny a competitor product working? It's not in their interest! I bet if you asked them before about the old kit they'd say they couldn't guarantee an MRT PT to work with a RC3 decoder...why would they? Not in their interest or control!

They want to sell their own PT's, and cannot make performance statements about competitor products...old or new.

I could well be wrong, but in practice, and until someone independent to AMB has tested the MRT's on an RC4, I won't be worrying.

And even then....if MRT are interested in continuing their business with PT's...expect them to be able to respond with something compatible...in time if not immediately!

Then, as a club, I'm not sure they'll be rushing out immediately to change decoders. It's a big outlay, and something that would be carefully planned and considered so that it didn't effect the day to day running of meetings and the club. The 2 clubs I help with both use MRT PT's as handout's, so wouldn't be rushing to change the setup if they don't.

My guess would be that during the transition period of this change, anyone turning up with a with a Purcy would be told they are incompatible and offered a handout...until such time as it made sense functionally and was financially viable to upgrade.

Suffice to say, the customers (who also tend to be represented at BRCA committee level with it being a democratic association) will vote with their heads and their cash and decide what works at race meetings ;)

[knighthawk]

Just read on Facebook that Deerdale Off Road Club are upgrading their Decoder to RC4.

They are running a Winter Series round on the 9th December !

They have warned racers that MRT will have issue, AMB/MyLaps will work fine.


So in short this debate will have an answer very soon !!



.

[Coastal]

Just read on Facebook that Deerdale Off Road Club are upgrading their Decoder to RC4.

They are running a Winter Series round on the 9th December !

They have warned racers that MRT will have issue, AMB/MyLaps will work fine.


So in short this debate will have an answer very soon !!



.

I also believe Rob of BBK will be running a parallel timing system at Rug Racers next Sunday.

So it will be interesting to see the results of both of these tests.

[mikeyscott]

Just read on Facebook that Deerdale Off Road Club are upgrading their Decoder to RC4.

They are running a Winter Series round on the 9th December !

They have warned racers that MRT will have issue, AMB/MyLaps will work fine.


So in short this debate will have an answer very soon !!



.

Will be watching with interest as I'd like to upgrade the decoder at TORCH.

Ideally to RC3 first and then RC4

[AmiSMB]

Mikey you will probably find that if you upgrade now that they may well skip the RC3 and send you an RC4 straight away as it is only a firmware change internally between them.

[mikeyscott]

Mikey you will probably find that if you upgrade now that they may well skip the RC3 and send you an RC4 straight away as it is only a firmware change internally between them.

Yup correct, been told RC3 is not an option.

[Coastal]

Any News from Deerdale?

[john333]

Any News from Deerdale?

It's next Sunday :p

[jimbot]

I also believe Rob of BBK will be running a parallel timing system at Rug Racers next Sunday.

So it will be interesting to see the results of both of these tests.

Rob popped up to HNMC after doing a test he said that the MRTs were not good and missed a lot of laps.
HNMC will decide at thier AGM this Thursday when they will up grade I would say it is likely to be 2014.
The issue is if the BRCA rallycross go RC4 we will most likely have to go RC4 when they move over.
jim

[mikeyscott]

Rob popped up to HNMC after doing a test he said that the MRTs were not good and missed a lot of laps.
HNMC will decide at thier AGM this Thursday when they will up grade I would say it is likely to be 2014.
The issue is if the BRCA rallycross go RC4 we will most likely have to go RC4 when they move over.
jim

Similar to many other clubs and classes etc.

[alteredoggy]

some results from Robs test session at Rug Racers yesterday are on the bbk website
http://www.bbksoftware.com/

[cigbunt]

im sure it wouldnt be impossible for them to work with mrt...

but more profitable to make racer have to upgrade

[skiv]

So I have a PSone and a PS2, do I expect PS3 games to work in them, does anyone:confused:


Again, not quite the same situation, you are one person playing your console at home. But backward compatibility is still there, or was when i remember Ps1 to Ps2, you could play your ps1 game on the ps2, so the ps2 console was backward compatible.

Do you expect your local club to upgrade their PS2 console (RC2 decoder) because you have gone and brought the latest ps3 game (purcy), i think not.

I plainly suggested it might have been good to make the purcy work with the old systems, then you brand new transponder would at least count laps at the club that can't afford the new decoder, and do all the funky new stuff at the national if they chose to upgrade.

It would have been possible to make a new transponder work with an old system as well as the new systems, but Mylaps chose not to

This has no reflection on the MRT Mylaps RC4 debate, so i don't really understand why you keep bringing it up.

Was anyone at RR watching the BBK test with the new system, as a little sceptical of the results presented on the BBK site who obviously have quite a good income stream with part x ptx's if they dont count.

[alteredoggy]

Was anyone at RR watching the BBK test with the new system, as a little sceptical of the results presented on the BBK site who obviously have quite a good income stream with part x ptx's if they dont count.
yes , i run race control for rug Racers
Rob had both RC3 and RC4 decoders running
during first round of qualy Rob noted which cars counted (or not) on RC4 decoder (also checking that all cars counted on thr RC3 decoder)
i then helped him visually check the transponder in every car,AMB, Harry, mrt or mrt ptx
to cross check results
i can confirm his results

ps. just to prempt the next question, yes i do know Rob personally, yes i am a beta tester for the bbkrc software, so yes i could be bias :rolleyes:

[mark christopher]

Rob has posted on his fb page 63 mrts were in use so all would have not been able to race.


http://rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?65677-New-decoder-transponder-from-My-Laps-%28AMB%29&p=442989#post442989

[cigbunt]

So I have a PSone and a PS2, do I expect PS3 games to work in them, does anyone:confused:
I have a Hobbywing V2.1 ESC and a HW V3 ESC can I run V3 firmware on my V2.1? No because the V3 has more memory in the chip.

Technology moves on and cannot always be backwards compatabile.


:wtf:

your post is totally irrelevant.. the technology are totally different...

remember this is a firmware upgrade!:p

[adam_u]

One thing I am curious about is the 'technology moving on part'. What is it actually bringing to the party...?

Does the current system count my laps consistently and accurately?

Yes.

No further questions.

[mark christopher]

This is part of the reply from mrt,

" It looks like inaccurate speculation based on the fact that as has been stated we are continuing our research into possible future system designs that would benefit all users of transponders for cars, bikes, boats etc"

[racingdwarf]

This is part of the reply from mrt,

" It looks like inaccurate speculation based on the fact that as has been stated we are continuing our research into possible future system designs that would benefit all users of transponders for cars, bikes, boats etc"

Errrm, should this be in the other MRT thred?:D

[Coastal]

:wtf:

your post is totally irrelevant.. the technology are totally different...

remember this is a firmware upgrade!:p

Really ?????????
it is a new transponder the pure that can only be counted on the upgraded firmware all previous amb/mylaps can still be counted.
This is what the complaint was about that THE NEW PURCY IS NOT BACKWARD COMPATIBLE

[Coastal]

One thing I am curious about is the 'technology moving on part'. What is it actually bringing to the party...?

Does the current system count my laps consistently and accurately?

Yes.

No further questions.

The technology moving on is the new Pure PT which can have the same number but also can have an additional digit which can denote which car it is.

ie 9768546(1) is your fandango 4WD, 9768546 (2) is your fandango 2WD
9768546 (3) is your superduper TC and so on, so your transponder number remains the same, the software will know exactly which car you are using


Oh and I have no allegiance to mylaps, bbk or MRT:D

[mark christopher]

Errrm, should this be in the other MRT thred?:D

Doh Florida sun for you lol

[mark christopher]

The technology moving on is the new Pure PT which can have the same number but also can have an additional digit which can denote which car it is.

ie 9768546(1) is your fandango 4WD, 9768546 (2) is your fandango 2WD
9768546 (3) is your superduper TC and so on, so your transponder number remains the same, the software will know exactly which car you are using


Oh and I have no allegiance to mylaps, bbk or MRT:D

Bugger me that's so clever

I have a mrt pt in all my cars with the same number, and quess what I don't need my pt to tell me which car I'm driving, because I can see it on the track.... Oh and the software will only know if someone tells it what is what.

[mark christopher]

Taken from a friends comment of FB, sums the whole thing up from a clubs point of view

"Yep, it is the Mylaps decoder that has changed, not the BBK software. And it is exactly why we will NOT be upgrading our decoder. Can't go upgrading to something that half the PTs out there won't work with. That's more of a downgrade."

[adam_u]

Bugger me that's so clever

I have a mrt pt in all my cars with the same number, and quess what I don't need my pt to tell me which car I'm driving, because I can see it on the track.... Oh and the software will only know if someone tells it what is what.

Exactly this, why do I need an extra digit available, so what? Do I need the system to tell me I am accidentally running my Snoring car on an off road circuit, might I bring my model boat to a micro national? Sorry, being a little bit facetious (I don't do boats, touring car or micro ;)), but what is the point of it? The pinnacle of RC timing technology is adding an extra digit to the transponder number? :lol:

I cannot see what it does to enhance the hobby whatsoever - now if they were going to tell me the upgrade will allow tracks to be divided up into sectors to provide split times (something I'm sure is probably already possible) then great, or it has been designed to work with some new affordable personal lap counting device, excellent, but it's none of these and nothing else I can see. I'm not saying lets all stay in 1985 pushing the number keys on a bbc micro to count laps, but change for change's sake? Even if the change was to give the clubs some amazing do-it-all software which makes those running the meetings lives' much easier then I could see the point in that too, but I'm yet to be convinced.

I have 2 MRTs on the same number in my 2 and 4wd - If I had to buy Harrys to replace them then I would, but I wouldn't even want to do that at the moment with the Purcy on the horizon, all a bit confusing right now...

[Northy]

Bugger me that's so clever

I have a mrt pt in all my cars with the same number, and quess what I don't need my pt to tell me which car I'm driving, because I can see it on the track.... Oh and the software will only know if someone tells it what is what.

If only oOple had a Like button...... :D:lol:

[Col]

If only oOple had a Like button...... :D:lol:

Interestingly (or prehaps not...) I also use another forum that's powered by vBulletin. It DOES have a like button.
Get the boss onto it, G!

[Coastal]

I cannot see what it does to enhance the hobby whatsoever - now if they were going to tell me the upgrade will allow tracks to be divided up into sectors to provide split times (something I'm sure is probably already possible) then great, .

Yep it is already possible to run multiple loops on a track to give split timing:) but guess what, I am sure you need a seperate decoder for each loop:cry: if you could do it through a single decoder it would be fantastic

[Col]

At YORCC (and therefore RHR inc dirt), we have made our decision:
http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116998

Obviously, the BRCA provide their own timing gear for all sanctioned events, so I guess it's still "up in the air" regarding the F3's next september.
I "think" the oOple race at RHRD uses YORCC timing gear so unless I'm corrected your MRT's will work there as well (but Purcy's won't).

[DaveG28]

So does any tp work with all systems? Will Harry work with anything I'm likely to encounter?

Because purcey's seem a massive waste of time if they are not backward compatible, and clearly someone is trying to kick mrt out of the game for daring to not gouge the customer...sorry, sorry, I mean someone is improving their system massively rendering the competition obsolete, obviously!

[knighthawk]

The 'Harry' will work best on all systems, approx 300% better hit rate re: Rob Nelson's comments on Facebook !

Dave I don't understand your comments, if you invested millions in R&D into a product then a company used your data you produce their own using your system you'd do something about it wouldn't you ?
I take it you have a Black PT and as such hence the comments.

[mark christopher]

The 'Harry' will work best on all systems, approx 300% better hit rate re: Rob Nelson's comments on Facebook !

Dave I don't understand your comments, if you invested millions in R&D into a product then a company used your data you produce their own using your system you'd do something about it wouldn't you ?
I take it you have a Black PT and as such hence the comments.

yup you would bring out a system that screws over many model car racers who went for a cost efective, british product with better customer service, that on robs test had 100% hit rate on rc3 for his tested 63 drivers at the event on mrt pt's..... oh and you can order as many as you like to your own personal number (which is mine not amb as i paid for it)
why can current purcy suppliers offer a trade in deal, but not lower thier retail price to those without trade ins?:thumbdown:

thank god for clubs like york who have thier members in mind not the pockets of mylaps /amb :thumbsup:



http://www.oople.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif Important Notice ref. New Transponders
As many of you will know Mylaps have released a new timing Decoder RC4,
and a new transponder RC4 (nickname Purcy). Anyone considering the purchase of a new RC4 transponder should be aware that it will only work with the RC4 decoder. YORCC have 2 decoders, for the indoor track and the outdoor track at RHR. Both decoders are RC3 models, which could be updated to the latest RC4 firmware if need be. There is a problem however. RC4 decoders can only read AMB/mylaps pts and handouts, Harrys and Purcys. They will not read MRT transponders.
Since a lot club members already have MRT pts, we do not intend updating our decoders in the forseeable future. Therefore if you turn up to a meeting with an RC4 pt you will have to use a club handout !
Details of recent testing of decoders can be found at http://www.bbksoftware.com (http://www.bbksoftware.com/)

[ClydeBuilt]

So.....plenty of 2nd user PT's on the way then LOL

[knighthawk]

yup you would bring out a system that screws over many model car racers who went for a cost efective, british product with better customer service, that on robs test had 100% hit rate on rc3 for his tested 63 drivers at the event on mrt pt's..... oh and you can order as many as you like to your own personal number (which is mine not amb as i paid for it)

Change the record Mark, you keep re-typing the same statement over and over again, so 63 racers have mrt's, OK that's fact, so is that rc4 is better and improved for amb/mylaps customers and as their customer I'm happy with that.

You and the other 62 mrt racers are happy with their product, great !

Then we are all happy with what we have bought and use, happy days

Great for York, that's their decision and I'm sure their happy

[knighthawk]

So.....plenty of 2nd user PT's on the way then LOL

2nd hand mrt's yes !
Rob is reporting trade-ins on PT's are up by a factor of 20 and most of the trades are mrt's

So do you see a trend here

[mark christopher]

Change the record Mark, you keep re-typing the same statement over and over again, so 63 racers have mrt's, OK that's fact, so is that rc4 is better and improved for amb/mylaps customers and as their customer I'm happy with that.

You and the other 62 mrt racers are happy with their product, great !

Then we are all happy with what we have bought and use, happy days

Great for York, that's their decision and I'm sure their happy


thats 63 mrt users at one meeting which there were 80 entrants. (around 75% of the meeting ran mrt)

ill change my record when you stop slating mrt and accept the upgradeis not good for the sport and is not needed!

* entrant list to prove figures
http://www.centralbooking.org/cbs/index.php?Itemid=337

[mark christopher]

2nd hand mrt's yes !
Rob is reporting trade-ins on PT's are up by a factor of 20 and most of the trades are mrt's

So do you see a trend here

Blah Blah (do us a favour and write the name on the soles of your shoes Mr Knighthawk)
so as your well in with Rob, why cant the price not be lowered to all buyers, not just those trading in? (after all the mrt's are worthless to him)

[knighthawk]

thats 63 mrt users at one meeting which there were 80 entrants. (around 75% of the meeting ran mrt)

ill change my record when you stop slating mrt and accept the upgradeis not good for the sport and is not needed!

* entrant list to prove figures
http://www.centralbooking.org/cbs/index.php?Itemid=337

All this says is that 63 racers have to make their mind up !

As for me slating mrt, yep guilty as charged, but then you are more guilty of slating mylaps

The new rc4 count detect is better 300% better with 'Harry's', hence the upgrade, if you can't see that then maybe your just not reading the facts or are just so peeved at your mrt purchase choice that you hope slagging it off on a public forum that clubs are so put off just in case you slag them off for having the audacity of upgrading to rc4

As for blah blah, grow up, I like about 99% use a forum name, I have no problem or shame in this !
As normal though, you have posted information that you have not been given permission to use !

Well done Mr Mark Christopher

[Si Coe]

I'm sorry but 300% better? Really? Sounds BS to me, mostly because in my experience virtually all missed laps are a result of operator error ie the race director or driver. Consequently they are rare at any well run club and when they do occur its a result of something that means it won't matter if you are running RC3 or 4 - like when we got water in the loop box.
If there are more than 3 missed laps at a major meeting it would be a surprise, so how can one be 300% better?

RC4 won't mean less missed laps because RC3 doesn't miss laps when run properly. RC4 will still miss the same laps if the loop isn't right......


Anyway I can also say that a straw poll at Bury yesterday means we too won't be going RC4. Too many members with MRT's - and we have some nice handouts anyone with a Purcy can use :p

[mark christopher]

All this says is that 63 racers have to make their mind up !

As for me slating mrt, yep guilty as charged, but then you are more guilty of slating mylaps

The new rc4 count detect is better 300% better with 'Harry's', hence the upgrade, if you can't see that then maybe your just not reading the facts or are just so peeved at your mrt purchase choice that you hope slagging it off on a public forum that clubs are so put off just in case you slag them off for having the audacity of upgrading to rc4

As for blah blah, grow up

thats 63 at ONE meeting, how many in the BRCA membership own MRT....
so rc4 counts 300% better, well robs results show all current bugs counted 100%... so no fickin problem is there!! Guess what 100% means zero missed laps. Thats the important fact any racer needs.

clubs are there for thier members...

how about you get me some facts from rob re the question on cost? seeing as you know all the facts about mylaps...

[knighthawk]

http://www.bbksoftware.com/

I like you Mark just read the details on the above website, that's all I need to know, my equipment is OK with both RC3 and RC4 Decoders, so that's me OK and that's all I have to know. I don't spread rumour or Lie's, I have only posted what I've read, you have gone above and beyond to slate this from the start and other topics, nice

As for clubs and their choice, great that they make their choice based on their club members, I commend you completely.

All I have ever said is fact from whats written and said racers will have to make their own minds up !
MRT have made a cheap imitation product and priced it to sell, that's fact again.
Mylaps own the decoders and the firmware and its their right to supply a upgrade to stop MRT using their system. fact again.

[john333]

I've never had a missed lap with my mrt. Our club Mansfield will also not be "upgrading" to rc4

[mark christopher]

http://www.bbksoftware.com/

that has no mention of the price question!!


as below 100% detection of ALL bugs on RC2 and RC3 so ZERO missed laps through out the meeting, so having 300% count will do what?
RC4 Decoder testing at Rug Racers 2nd December 2012
We did some testing at the Rug Racers event to check if the MRT transponders were behaving at a race as they do in our bench tests. We connected an RC3 and RC4 Decoder to the loop that was being used to time the event. The event was timed using the older RC2 Decoder. The following table shows the % of passes recorded.

[knighthawk]

Mark,
I don't work for either Mylaps or BBK Software so can't comment, I'm a customer and as such accept the price given for the product and make my mind up if to buy or not.

More facts

RC4 Decoder testing at Rug Racers 2nd December 2012 Part 2
We did some testing at the Rug Racers event to check if the AMB and Mylaps Transponders were behaving at a race as they do in our bench tests. We compared the performance of the transponders detected by the RC4 Decoder and the RC2 Decoder used to time the event. Of particular interest were the number of "hits" detected. In simple terms the more "hits" the less likely a "missed count". The following table shows the average % ratio of "hits" detected by the RC4 Decoder compared to the RC2 Decoder for the same transponder. the number in () is the total number of transponders of each type.

The absolute number of "hits" for a particular transponder type varies from car to car, depending on the position of the transponder and the components around it. To work reliably the signal has to be detected as the car approaches, crosses and leaves the loop and the time and strength of each "hit" is used to calculate when the car crosses the loop. The more "hits" the better the accuracy. For each passing the number of hits will vary slightly. I have seen instances of the decoder getting less that 10 hits from some transponders and by moving the transponder to a better position the number of "hits" increases. If there are a low number of "hits" then sooner or later a lap will be missed.

To get an accurate time of crossing the loop the car needs to be moving quickly. That way the transponder is in one place (centre of the loop) for less time. Putting the loop in a slow part of the track was important when cars were manually counted but we haven't done that for over 20 years. The best place is on a fast part of the track where the cars can safely go flat out. Racing to the loop in a slow part of the track on the last lap of qualifying is dangerous for marshals.

As cars get faster and carbon fibre and to a lesser extend alloy is used in chassis material we need a "better" transponder signal. Both carbon fibre and alloy block the signal. More detail on this can be found here Why do Transponders miss laps? (http://www.bbksoftware.com/ambrc/information/WhydoTranspondersMissLaps.pdf) Increasing the signal strength doesn't help as it results in transponder pickup over a wider area for cars with good mounting positions. This just creates more problems with cars being detected on other parts of the track. More "hits" generated and detected per unit time improves accuracy and reliability.

In addition to improvements in transponder performance for new and old AMB/Mylaps transponders RC4 includes the Pure RC4 transponder (Purcy). Purcy allows several transponders with the same 7 digit number but an extra unique ID number. In some types of RC racing it is permitted to use more than one chassis during an event, in others it is not. The extra ID number is there so the Timing System can detect if more than one transponder is used with the same 7 digit number. Without this it would be possible to fake results by using more than one transponder, one in the car and one placed near the loop. As the RC2 and RC3 firmware cannot report the Car ID (it was developed later), Car ID transponders only work with RC4 firmware. The RC4 decoder can be used with software that is not RC4 "aware". In this circumstance the decoder will ignore a second Purcy transponder with the same 7 number for a timeout period. This timeout period can be controlled in the RC4 Decoder by the timekeeper.

RC4 Decoder testing at Rug Racers 2nd December 2012
We did some testing at the Rug Racers event to check if the MRT transponders were behaving at a race as they do in our bench tests. We connected an RC3 and RC4 Decoder to the loop that was being used to time the event. The event was timed using the older RC2 Decoder. The following table shows the % of passes recorded.

This demonstrates that all AMB/Mylaps transponders work reliably with the RC4 Decoders but MRT transponders do not, in fact only 1 in 5 PTX transponders recorded any laps at all. We have offered a trade in for MRT transponders in exchange for Harry transponders since April 2010 and continue to do so.2nd December 2012

[mark christopher]

facts proving what?

[knighthawk]

facts proving what?
That I posted the facts as it written.
And all of them

[mark christopher]

As normal though, you have posted information that you have not been given permission to use !

Well done Mr Mark Christopher


what info dont i have permission to use then?

[knighthawk]

what info dont i have permission to use then?

Duh, my name for one !

[mark christopher]

I don't spread rumour or Lie's

Mylaps own the decoders and the firmware and its their right to supply a upgrade to stop MRT using their system. fact again.

so your 100% in the claim Mylaps own all the decoders that clubs/organizations have purchased?

[knighthawk]

so your 100% in the claim Mylaps own all the decoders that clubs/organizations have purchased?
Haa Haa you make me laugh, so twist it a little more chap go on.

Do AMB or Mylaps produce the product, Answer Yes
That's what MyLaps are providing the update for, It's AMB or Mylaps stamped ( Labelled ) on the decoders, the firmware is written for the said Decoders

That's my Claim and you know it, stop trying to be funny

[mark christopher]

Twist it chap go on.

Do AMB or Mylaps produce the product, Answer Yes
That's what MyLaps are providing the update for, It's AMB or Mylaps stamped ( Labelled ) on the decoders, the firmware is written for the said Decoders

That's my Claim and you know it, stop trying to be funny
you claimed they own them.... dont go back pedling on us now!

as you seem unable to get this in your head, im against this because its not needed and not for the good of the hobby. everything is working as is.
i could go out and buy 5 harrys tomorrow if i wanted to. thats not my issue

[Col]

Duh, my name for one !

Edited

[mark christopher]

Blah Blah (do us a favour and write the name on the soles of your shoes Mr Knighthawk..)
so as your well in with Rob, why cant the price not be lowered to all buyers, not just those trading in? (after all the mrt's are worthless to him)

Duh, my name for one !


Really thats your name? what a coincidence!, I just asked you to write that name on your shoe soles! had no idea you were the the one sucking up on the bbk thread...

[knighthawk]

you claimed they own them.... dont go back pedling on us now!

as you seem unable to get this in your head, im against this because its not needed and not for the good of the hobby. everything is working as is.
i could go out and buy 5 harrys tomorrow if i wanted to. thats not my issue

I'm not back peddling at all, it was a figure of speech chap, Mylaps own the right to the product by name ( I'm guessing here but I would said there's some patient or something written somewhere )

If you think I meant that clubs who have bought the units own nothing then you really are a sad man !

I read and understand everything written in the posts, so I can get this in my head.

If Mylaps think it's needed to improve their product features then they think its necessary.

Do I think it needed, if it means less chance of my laps being missed, then yep dam right it's needed, and for that fact alone, my laps

I have never told you that you had to buy 5 new Harry's, I said all racers have a choice to make and as such you have said time and time again, you won't buy MyLaps products because of their lack of customer service, fair enough that's your choice, as I've said.

[knighthawk]

Really thats your name? what a coincidence!, I just asked you to write that name on your shoe soles! had no idea you were the the one sucking up on the bbk thread...

Mark are you smoking something
WTF does this mean, "had no idea you were the the one sucking up on the bbk thread"

Do you know what, never mind answering that, no point, your make something up about this as well

[Frecklychimp]

I think its time we discussed a productive way forward on this topic...

There is a physical problem with the sport in this country where clubs are in he position of having to either choose to upgrade to satisfy customers with new My Laps P.T's or stick with the RC3 systems to keep the majority of customers/racers happy.

personally i think the BRCA could step in to fix this... ban the use of Purcy's in UK r/c racing for the near future... this stops any uk drivers turning up at meetings to have timing issues... those that race in euro/world meetings will be the only ones needing to upgrade p.t's if they currently run MRT products.

It stops uk racers having to replace MRT's they own... it is a large number of racers affected... only MRT could confirm number of sales in UK but its a lot bigger than we could guess at.

Clubs will not have to lay out for new systems/software either and considering the financials in some struggling clubs these days this can only be a good thing.

MRT will help situation by developing a P.T upgrade/replacement that works on new system

Anyone interested in joining a petition to BRCA to propose the idea?

[knighthawk]

I think its time we discussed a productive way forward on this topic...

There is a physical problem with the sport in this country where clubs are in he position of having to either choose to upgrade to satisfy customers with new My Laps P.T's or stick with the RC3 systems to keep the majority of customers/racers happy.

personally i think the BRCA could step in to fix this... ban the use of Purcy's in UK r/c racing for the near future... this stops any uk drivers turning up at meetings to have timing issues... those that race in euro/world meetings will be the only ones needing to upgrade p.t's if they currently run MRT products.

It stops uk racers having to replace MRT's they own... it is a large number of racers affected... only MRT could confirm number of sales in UK but its a lot bigger than we could guess at.

Clubs will not have to lay out for new systems/software either and considering the financials in some struggling clubs these days this can only be a good thing.

MRT will help situation by developing a P.T upgrade/replacement that works on new system

Anyone interested in joining a petition to BRCA to propose the idea?

WOW, lol

[Col]

Due to the fact that neither my AMB PT nor my MRT PT have ever missed a lap or had a clash, I see no need to change either of them

I'd quite happily sign the petition.

[Frecklychimp]

Due to the fact that neither my AMB PT nor my MRT PT have ever missed a lap or had a clash, I see no need to change either of them

I'd quite happily sign the petition.

Exactly my feelings dude!

[knighthawk]

non of my 8 AMB/Mylaps PT's have ever missed a lap !

so i'm happy not to sign :p

[Frecklychimp]

WOW, lol

Good wow?

Bad wow?

or cynical wow?

since you have recently have gone to the expense of changing from MRT to AMB P.T's and quite a few of them for your family... are you really happy that you have had to do this when technically there wasn't an issue when you ran MRT's?

[Si Coe]

Due to the fact that neither my AMB PT nor my MRT PT have ever missed a lap or had a clash, I see no need to change either of them

I'd quite happily sign the petition.
Precisely.

Why should MRT users have to spend money (cos trade-in still isn't free) to fix something that ISN'T A PROBLEM!!!!!!?

Missed laps are a rarity, and as BBK's own info mentions frequently down to transponder placement and loop positioning. RC4 might make that less critical but most clubs have it sorted with RC2/3 systems so there is no gain. If lap counting was frequently unreliable I could see the point, but it isn't.

Actually its ironic really - what got AMB into timing F1 and the likes was the incredible reliability of its RC systems. Yet now they are suggesting that what was good enough for professional motorsport isn't enough?

[knighthawk]

Good wow?

Bad wow?

or cynical wow?

since you have recently have gone to the expense of changing from MRT to AMB P.T's and quite a few of them for your family... are you really happy that you have had to do this when technically there wasn't an issue when you ran MRT's?

I've never owed a MRT PT in my Life, and don't know where you got that information from

[Cockerill]

Knighthawk, would you rather a club upgraded and left 75% (A rough guess based on the figures in this thread) of their membership to buy new transponders, or a club potentially turn away a new member as they have a new transponder incompatible with their system.

Based on the fact that 99% of the decoders currently work with 99% of the transponders in-use, it seems silly for the above problem to be introduced. In no way I can see is it good for our hobby/sport.

[Frecklychimp]

Precisely.

Why should MRT users have to spend money (cos trade-in still isn't free) to fix something that ISN'T A PROBLEM!!!!!!?

Missed laps are a rarity, and as BBK's own info mentions frequently down to transponder placement and loop positioning. RC4 might make that less critical but most clubs have it sorted with RC2/3 systems so there is no gain. If lap counting was frequently unreliable I could see the point, but it isn't.

Actually its ironic really - what got AMB into timing F1 and the likes was the incredible reliability of its RC systems. Yet now they are suggesting that what was good enough for professional motorsport isn't enough?


It was allegedly the KERS system being introduced that caused interference issues hence 'required' upgrade.

How this effects r/c is beyond me!

i do question the reason MRT's don't work on new system but older AMB's do... do MRT's run at a lower signal strength to all AMB products so they have just managed to remove the signal detection band that 'accidentally' means a competitors products are defunct?

[Frecklychimp]

I've never owed a MRT PT in my Life, and don't know where you got that information from

If that's the case then i apologise for the question,

Was convinced i saw you advertising multiple MRT's in the for sale section and requesting 'Harry's in the wanted section in the oOple trade room.

my mistake.

[knighthawk]

Knighthawk, would you rather a club upgraded and left 75% (A rough guess based on the figures in this thread) of their membership to buy new transponders, or a club potentially turn away a new member as they have a new transponder incompatible with their system.

Based on the fact that 99% of the decoders currently work with 99% of the transponders in-use, it seems silly for the above problem to be introduced. In no way I can see is it good for our hobby/sport.

Tom No
Not at all, It was posted why is it needed, I replied with if it improves the hit rate and potential missed laps, but every club and every member has to make their own mind up, as I posted !

My fact was that Mylaps have made the update to further the product, they are not in anyway forcing this on any club or member, in fact they are selling the Purcy alone side the Harry for compatibility reason.

Are we still using Analogue Handout Transponders, No because the Tech moved on, this is the next step from Mylaps

[knighthawk]

If that's the case then i apologise for the question,

Was convinced i saw you advertising multiple MRT's in the for sale section and requesting 'Harry's in the wanted section in the oOple trade room.

my mistake.
No you have my word i've never owed a MRT PT
Yes I have advertised for Harry's as I've needed them !

I did say that I would upgrade if necessary to three sets of Purcy's to get 3 individual car ID's if I needed and when I needed, at this time there is no need as my two lad's and my own PT's work on both RC3 and RC4 systems so no need to change yet.

But no harm done, simple mistake, cheers for the reply

[mark christopher]

non of my 8 AMB/Mylaps PT's have ever missed a lap !

so i'm happy not to sign :p

So your amb, mylap Harry's have never missed you a lap, on rc2 and rc3

Remind my why you think we need rc4 again.....

[scooterboy]

Tom No
Not at all, It was posted why is it needed, I replied with if it improves the hit rate and potential missed laps, but every club and every member has to make their own mind up, as I posted !

My fact was that Mylaps have made the update to further the product, they are not in anyway forcing this on any club or member, in fact they are selling the Purcy alone side the Harry for compatibility reason.

Are we still using Analogue Handout Transponders, No because the Tech moved on, this is the next step from Mylaps

Yep still using analogue handouts at 2 of the 3 clubs I race at

[knighthawk]

Yep still using analogue handouts at 2 of the 3 clubs I race at

Nothing intended here at all, but are you sure there analogue handouts and not digital handouts

Only interested as a club I helped run had analogue handouts AMB20 system I beleive it was, they upgraded when they couldn't get an replacements for broken units, before they upgraded they only had 3 working pairs !

[scooterboy]

LRC and Plymouth RC both still analogue

[Si Coe]

Nothing intended here at all, but are you sure there analogue handouts and not digital handouts

Only interested as a club I helped run had analogue handouts AMB20 system I beleive it was, they upgraded when they couldn't get an replacements for broken units, before they upgraded they only had 3 working pairs !

And thats the point. They only upgraded because the old system was no longer supported. It was perfectly good at timing the cars, its just that dead transponders couldn't be replaced.
Likewise Mylaps have screwed clubs everywhere by abandoning the handout transponder. Quite how hard it would be to make Harry's with a small battery attached baffles me, but Mylaps want PT's or nothing so stopped it. Most clubs with handouts now guard them feverishly - they are highly useful yet irreplaceable.
This is not true progress but planned obsolescence.

[knighthawk]

Look i'm sorry to all !
I've been in this sport for 30+ years as a child racer, club helper and father !

I've been sat in the tent with a pencil, paper and a stopwatch shouting out car numbers to count racers laps.

I welcomed the Handouts Transponders when they came on the scene, thought they were the best thing since sliced bread, gave clubs accurancy to lap counting.

I had a small break when Personal Transponders came on the scene but again thought this was a great idea, you could put it where you wanted it, noy drilled into your wing or body shell, body pins flying loose and not counting your laps and you didn't have to cue and remeber to put it on and off to race.

I don't want to seem as the bad guy here, nothing could be further from the truth, i'm all for the sport as it is my hobby to after all !

I only post what I see, I have AMB/Mylaps and see that the upgrade is Mylaps looking after my products, customer service is one view, and making sure they count each and every one of my laps, I don't want the opposite for MRT users, have never stated I did.

[scooterboy]

In a way it could be a good thing for the smaller clubs as the market will be flooded with 2nd hand digital decodes and pt's

[mark christopher]

In a way it could be a good thing for the smaller clubs as the market will be flooded with 2nd hand digital decodes and pt's

pretty sure its a software upgrade, and not a new unit?

[scooterboy]

Doh:blush:

[lordnikon]

Its threads like this that is rapidly putting me off this site, along with looking terrible for potential newbies to the hobby/sport.

All this arguing is pointless (much like this post tbh) we can do nothing about this, the clubs will make their decisions and we (if we race at those clubs) have to follow that decision or race elsewhere.

I have no doubt a workable solution will come to light, until then you pays your money and takes your choice. You know what they say about arguing on the internet .......... although some on here seem to get off on it / make it a full time job ! :thumbdown:

[mark christopher]

no responce to this then?

non of my 8 AMB/Mylaps PT's have ever missed a lap !

so i'm happy not to sign :p

So your amb, mylap Harry's have never missed you a lap, on rc2 and rc3

Remind my why you think we need rc4 again?

I have AMB/Mylaps and see that the upgrade is Mylaps looking after my products, customer service is one view, and making sure they count each and every one of my laps, I don't want the opposite for MRT users, have never stated I did.

so if you dont want mrt owners not to have thier laps counted, and your amb/mylaps are counting ok, and your for the sport hobby, do you agree rc4 is not a good move?

[mark christopher]

Its threads like this that is rapidly putting me off this site, along with looking terrible for potential newbies to the hobby/sport.

All this arguing is pointless (much like this post tbh) we can do nothing about this, the clubs will make their decisions and we (if we race at those clubs) have to follow that decision or race elsewhere.

I have no doubt a workable solution will come to light, until then you pays your money and takes your choice. You know what they say about arguing on the internet .......... although some on here seem to get off on it / make it a full time job ! :thumbdown:


this is a real time live forum and people argue/disagree were not in a nanny state where everyone is wrapped in cotton wool agreeing with everyone. we can do somthing as racer/club members look at york, they have taken a decision and somthing has been done. im sure when i see knighthawk at a meeting we will chat and talk as normal

[RogerM]

Guys guys guys, if I feel I need to be the voice of reason then something must be far out of left feild!!!

I think this will be a non-issue. Most of the clubs will decided that they don't need to change / upgrade so won't so it won't affect 95% of racers.

If a national section decides it must go RC4 then they will, the racers dedicated to that section will run the appropriate PT for that section at nationals (and thus probably everywhere else as if they have any sense they will get a Harry as it works on both).

Those who aren't prepared to change PT aren't dedicated to that class so will find a different one to race, afterall the majority of racers at national level LIKE to have (not necessarily need to have) the latest greatest kit so change regularly anyway!!

The only potential losers, as I see it are MyLaps as nobody in their right mind would currently buy a Percy if they do their research. Even a newbie, a class of club racer that isn't known for forward planning, will almost certainly show up at their first meeting without any transponder. Their prospective club is likely to say "go get a Harry PT for these reasons" and point them to the info on the BBK site. They MIGHT feel the need to add, as I would, "you'll probably be ok with an MRT at this club and MOST around here BUT you might find that you need to change in the future so bare that in mind".

There is one issue I can see. If a decoder breaks and has to be repaired and goes back to the club with an unrequested "upgrade" to RC4 that will cause issues for the club. In that situation I would hope that MyLaps would revert the decoder to RC3 for them.
With that in mind it might be worth the clubs remembering to specify they want RC3 firmware following any repairs!!

[mpg200]

Ok, Having read this thread I decided to take a look at my MRT transponder. Attached is the output as seen on a 500Mhz scope. It appears to send data packets of around 100us in length these are not equually spaced and not identical. the fist few bits and last bits of each packet is so I assume this is the lead in and end word, but the middle is different. I will try to decipher the transmission protocol so I can understand it. Anyone else fancy doing the same to a harry?

[Col]

Ok, Having read this thread I decided to take a look at my MRT transponder. Attached is the output as seen on a 500Mhz scope. It appears to send data packets of around 100us in length these are not equually spaced and not identical. the fist few bits and last bits of each packet is so I assume this is the lead in and end word, but the middle is different. I will try to decipher the transmission protocol so I can understand it. Anyone else fancy doing the same to a harry?

Matt, you can borrow my AMB RC if you're in the area. It's not a Harry, but an original one.
Other than that you might as well be speaking Klingon. Infact, if you were I would probably understand more of what you just said!

[DaveG28]

The 'Harry' will work best on all systems, approx 300% better hit rate re: Rob Nelson's comments on Facebook !

Dave I don't understand your comments, if you invested millions in R&D into a product then a company used your data you produce their own using your system you'd do something about it wouldn't you ?
I take it you have a Black PT and as such hence the comments.

About the only thing I am 100% sure of is I wouldn't do all that then pretend I had really done it to "improve the system".

[DaveG28]

Guys guys guys, if I feel I need to be the voice of reason then something must be far out of left feild!!!

I think this will be a non-issue. Most of the clubs will decided that they don't need to change / upgrade so won't so it won't affect 95% of racers.

If a national section decides it must go RC4 then they will, the racers dedicated to that section will run the appropriate PT for that section at nationals (and thus probably everywhere else as if they have any sense they will get a Harry as it works on both).

Those who aren't prepared to change PT aren't dedicated to that class so will find a different one to race, afterall the majority of racers at national level LIKE to have (not necessarily need to have) the latest greatest kit so change regularly anyway!!

The only potential losers, as I see it are MyLaps as nobody in their right mind would currently buy a Percy if they do their research. Even a newbie, a class of club racer that isn't known for forward planning, will almost certainly show up at their first meeting without any transponder. Their prospective club is likely to say "go get a Harry PT for these reasons" and point them to the info on the BBK site. They MIGHT feel the need to add, as I would, "you'll probably be ok with an MRT at this club and MOST around here BUT you might find that you need to change in the future so bare that in mind".

There is one issue I can see. If a decoder breaks and has to be repaired and goes back to the club with an unrequested "upgrade" to RC4 that will cause issues for the club. In that situation I would hope that MyLaps would revert the decoder to RC3 for them.
With that in mind it might be worth the clubs remembering to specify they want RC3 firmware following any repairs!!

Yep, and that's what I was after, the only sensible thing to buy right now is a Harry.

I'll probably get one for the pit box as a backup in case I race somewhere that uses the new system, that's 300% better than the 100% correct old system.

[racingdwarf]

I agree with roger, why is this thred such a bun fight.

the new software will support ALL amb pt's, the only problem is the rc4 is the only software able to recive from a percy so It must be clearly stated on the pack that this is the case so as to stop a new racer, with no knowledge of this buying one only to find he can't use it at many clubs yet.

As long as harrys are readily available to buy I see no problem as the rc4 software will receive their signal.

You realy can't expect in this day and age a company to happily watch another make money from their product, in this case MRT. AMB want us all to now be buying amb transponders, so they can have the money, as it's all about the money these days is it not?

Now if the new system only recived the percy signal, and we were all being forced to buy new percys then I could understand this sort of uproar!

Also just for the record, I'm no lover of AMB, I think it's way over priced and if someone like mrt could make something for half the price I would love to see Amb break a sweat.:D

[DaveG28]

I agree with roger, why is this thred such a bun fight.

the new software will support ALL amb pt's, the only problem is the rc4 is the only software able to recive from a percy so It must be clearly stated on the pack that this is the case so as to stop a new racer, with no knowledge of this buying one only to find he can't use it at many clubs yet.

As long as harrys are readily available to buy I see no problem as the rc4 software will receive their signal.

You realy can't expect in this day and age a company to happily watch another make money from their product, in this case MRT. AMB want us all to now be buying amb transponders, so they can have the money, as it's all about the money these days is it not?

Now if the new system only recived the percy signal, and we were all being forced to buy new percys then I could understand this sort of uproar!

Also just for the record, I'm no lover of AMB, I think it's way over priced and if someone like mrt could make something for half the price I would love to see Amb break a sweat.:D

Do you not see the obvious next step from AMB though?

Namely, they'll discontinue "Harry" meaning the new tp is the only one available, to try to force clubs into an rc4 upgrade?

I wonder if they have confirmed yet that if your rc3 system goes down they'll repair it without forcing you to go to rc4?

[racingdwarf]

Do you not see the obvious next step from AMB though?

Namely, they'll discontinue "Harry" meaning the new tp is the only one available, to try to force clubs into an rc4 upgrade?

I wonder if they have confirmed yet that if your rc3 system goes down they'll repair it without forcing you to go to rc4?

Yes to be honest I do, and sadly we are lambs to the slaughter, as the BRCA are dependant on their systems as are most clubs in the uk, and with no real competitor in the market place AMB can do as they wish, and what can we do? vote with our feet?? they are laughing all the way to the bank!

They could stop producing the harry next month, only selling the percy, thus forcing clubs to all upgrade at the same time £££ sweet.

[Si Coe]

Slight problem there - That just plays into MRT's hands.
Can't get a Harry but your club is still RC3? You could always buy an MRT. Clubs RC3/2 decoder died and Mylaps want to replace it with an RC4? I'm pretty sure that MRT's guys could repair it whilst still keeping it RC3 spec even if they can't build a duplicate.

[MattW]

MPG200 - the real interesting thing would be to be able to run that test with an original AMB RC and a MRT clone of it - as clearly there must be some differences.

[Mike2222]

Stormer Hobbies in US are advertising mylaps RC4 transponders which they say are compatable with older amb RC2/RC3 timing systems!!
http://www.stormerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/seekpart.pl?src=ns&pn=MYL1000

[MattW]

That's correct, as that's the "RC4 Hybrid", it's the "RC4 Pure" that isn't compatible with older decoders.

[alteredoggy]

I'm sorry but 300% better? Really? Sounds BS to me, mostly because in my experience virtually all missed laps are a result of operator error ie the race director or driver. Consequently they are rare at any well run club
so. please explain to me how the hell the race director can make your car lose laps ??????????????

[Frecklychimp]

so. please explain to me how the hell the race director can make your car lose laps ??????????????

By not setting timing equipment properly, not setting the race software up properly or by not booking your transponder in properly!

[alteredoggy]

with all due respect thats Bollocks!!
loop to decoder . decoder to computer, its not rocket science
i would love to know how to setup the software to miss random laps for just one car
the transponder number is either correct or incorrect. it will either count or not (not miss ramdom laps)

[Frecklychimp]

with all due respect thats Bollocks!!
loop to decoder . decoder to computer, its not rocket science
i would love to know how to setup the software to miss random laps for just one car
the transponder number is either correct or incorrect. it will either count or not (not miss ramdom laps)

there is no respect there!

if the gain is not set right on decoder then weaker signal transponders will not be detected or intermittant depending on situation with car position on loop or loop position on track.... race directors job to ensure this!

if the minimum lap time is not set on software correctly by race director then cars under that time will be missing and not counted also the same for max lap time

if the race director doesn't enter the transponder number correctly then it wont count at all

And trust me i've experienced all these things so they exist!

so who is talking bollocks?

[Si Coe]

Incorrect setup of the loop or wrong settings in the software mainly.

I managed to 'lose' peoples laps when we made a rather short track where the fastest drivers (but only a few drivers, and not every lap) were lapping under softwares minimum lap time. The program doesn't tell you its discounted the lap, it just ignores it so there was no indication there, all I knew was people were complaining. Its only when I realised that the minimum lap time had been raised for the previous meeting (on a long track) that I could solve the problem.
I'd call that one operator error as I hadn't adjusted the settings to the conditions.

Its not an insult to race controllers to admit that they are human and make occasional errors.....

[Frecklychimp]

Incorrect setup of the loop or wrong settings in the software mainly.

I managed to 'lose' peoples laps when we made a rather short track where the fastest drivers were lapping under softwares minimum lap time. The program doesn't tell you its discounted the lap, it just ignores it so there was no indication there, all I knew was people were complaining. Its only when I realised that the minimum lap time had been raised for the previous meeting (on a long track) that I could solve the problem.
I'd call that one operator error as I hadn't adjusted the settings to the conditions.

Nice one matey, cheers for the back-up on that one

Being a Race director is a horrible thankless task so thumbs up for doing it and its an easy mistake if a venue changes track layouts a lot.

And you can use the audio warnings to let you know of a problem lap.. on BBK you can anyways... bit late once its happened but at least you know it is!

[alteredoggy]

weaker signal transpondersoh you mean MRTs?
min lap, i have done this on one occasion i can think of, when i didn't realise just how fast a 12 pan car is
easy fix in seconds during the race (by any competent RC)
wrong PT number, this is usually because the racer is to lazy to enter his correct number on the on line booking system and cant be arsed to tell race control its the wrong number on the heat list(again easy fix during race by any decent RC)
this happens at EVERY race meeting i race direct. so it does happen:bored:

[Frecklychimp]

so. please explain to me how the hell the race director can make your car lose laps ??????????????

So what was this asked for if you have done it yourself?

[Rat Monkey]

Having read this thread I really can't see why so many people are throwing their toys out of their prams!

AMB have upgraded their timing system - they have done it before amb20 to rc2, rc2 to rc3, so now we have rc4 - natural progression nice to see that manufacturers are developing their product. From what I have read it offers a few new features including the ability to have a few transponders with the same number - very handy for those that race more than one class.

MRT state that they can't clone Harry transponders so are stuck with using numbers from older ones so can only keep producing with a finite number of numbers and are also "cloning" another product

Having looked at the mylaps website they have information about rc4 which says that it is backwards compatible so will work with older transponders (if it works with older transponders why wouldn't it work with mrt ones as well? They show test figures for it on their literature)

Just follow this link and read their info about rc4
http://www.mylaps.com/kb/en/b2c/Transponder%20Specifications/MYLAPS_Whitepaper_RC4.pdf

I'm just a relative newbie to this hobby but from what I can see lots of people are getting het up for no real reason :)

[mark christopher]

Having read this thread I really can't see why so many people are throwing their toys out of their prams!

AMB have upgraded their timing system - they have done it before amb20 to rc2, rc2 to rc3, so now we have rc4 - natural progression nice to see that manufacturers are developing their product. From what I have read it offers a few new features including the ability to have a few transponders with the same number - very handy for those that race more than one class.

MRT state that they can't clone Harry transponders so are stuck with using numbers from older ones so can only keep producing with a finite number of numbers and are also "cloning" another product

Having looked at the mylaps website they have information about rc4 which says that it is backwards compatible so will work with older transponders (if it works with older transponders why wouldn't it work with mrt ones as well? They show test figures for it on their literature)

Just follow this link and read their info about rc4
http://www.mylaps.com/kb/en/b2c/Transponder%20Specifications/MYLAPS_Whitepaper_RC4.pdf

I'm just a relative newbie to this hobby but from what I can see lots of people are getting het up for no real reason :)

with all due respect, if your asking the question in your brakets, then you aint read all the thread!

[Coastal]

In a way it could be a good thing for the smaller clubs as the market will be flooded with 2nd hand digital decodes and pt's

NO the market won't be flooded because you have to trade in your old decoder unless it is an RC3 then it is a software update.

[spyro]

with all due respect thats Bollocks!!
loop to decoder . decoder to computer, its not rocket science
i would love to know how to setup the software to miss random laps for just one car
the transponder number is either correct or incorrect. it will either count or not (not miss ramdom laps)

No it's not rocket science but it does take a level of skill that you learn over some years.

Random transponders missing random laps from random cars is the biggest headeach for an RD. It's usually a mixture of many different things all transpiring together that then effects one or two drivers ON THAT DAY.

Usually starts with a degrading loop or coax, coupled with either a badly placed PT, thick carbon/Ali chassis, worn PT cable, or even poor BEC performance. And that's the short list!

As an RD you have to understand what the decoder and the software is telling you about the incoming laps.

And as Si says that's before you remember to change the min/max lap times for different layouts for each class.

I still maintain that every driver should do a stint in race control! :)

[Coastal]

I still maintain that every driver should do a stint in race control! :)


Oh yesssssssssssss:D

[Frecklychimp]

Usually starts with a degrading loop or coax, coupled with either a badly placed PT, thick carbon/Ali chassis, worn PT cable, or even poor BEC performance. And that's the short list!



Add to that list:

* placing the loop in a position where cars are airborne,
* Placing the loop in insulating pipe full of rain water and burying it under soil and sand,
* placing the loop on a fast sweeping corner so the racing line takes cars outside the edge of loop,
* placing loop on fast sweeping corner so 4wd's on full power and initial full steering lock have a voltage drop as they pass over it
* not setting gain correctly so half the field have missing laps.
* fog,
* bad light,
* wrong kind of wind,
* passing aircraft,
* too much paint/stickers on bodyshells
* Mayan prophecies against selected Durango, Vega and TLR cars

:p

[Superstar]

I read this question being asked but I don't think it has been answered.

I had an AMB transponder. I got it when they first came out in the early 2000's or when ever it was. About 18 months ago it was frayed and worn out so I got two MRT PT's, one for each car. I sent my old AMB PT as if you did this you could get two for the price of one. They did however clone my AMB transponder so that I had two new PT's with the same number as my original AMB PT.

Seeing as they are clones of my AMB does anyone know if I will have this same problem?

Cheer

[Col]

Josh - your MRT's will not work on RC4 decoders. There is no distinction between a copied number PT and a MRT with 20 numbers built in.
If you want to move 200 miles up north again we have no plans at YORCC to move from RC3...

[Chequered Flag Racing]

Seeing as they are clones of my AMB does anyone know if I will have this same problem?

Cheer

Yes. It's the new decoder that won't read the MRT's whether or not they are cloned.

[Superstar]

Thanks for the reply guys. Okay I understand. It seems like such an unnecessary expense. Im in my first proper job from uni so don't earn a great deal. I have to plan my racing budget carefully now it seems I have to buy these new transponders. Since my move down south I don't belong to a club anymore so wont be able to get any of the discount. This sort of thing can stop me from racing for a month. We all already know the cost of racing is huge anyway without having to replace things that work fine.

I have had no problems since MRT sold me two clones for the price of one. They have never skipped a beat and fit in the car easily and also look okay.

I found out last night that my new region will be changing so if I want to compete at the regionals down here I will need to upgrade and buy the new transponders. It is infuriating for me so much so I was just put off going racing today as planned to race at the TORCH winter series as I thought I cant afford the tyres to race if Im going to need to buy these new transponders.

Its times like this I did wish I was still up north and I take my hat off to my old club YORCC for them sticking up for what I think is right. I think this whole situation sticks!

Before anyone says its progress etc I cant honestly remember the last time I saw a problem with missed laps. I see that it works fine so why change? It seems to be like clubs are being bullied into this and brainwashed into thinking it is actually better for us all.

[MikePimlott]

Yes. It's the new decoder that won't read the MRT's whether or not they are cloned.

DEFINITELY wont

or MAYBE wont ??

[Col]

DEFINITELY wont

or MAYBE wont ??

Definitely won't.

[knighthawk]

Thanks for the reply guys. Okay I understand. It seems like such an unnecessary expense. Im in my first proper job from uni so don't earn a great deal. I have to plan my racing budget carefully now it seems I have to buy these new transponders. Since my move down south I don't belong to a club anymore so wont be able to get any of the discount. This sort of thing can stop me from racing for a month. We all already know the cost of racing is huge anyway without having to replace things that work fine.

I have had no problems since MRT sold me two clones for the price of one. They have never skipped a beat and fit in the car easily and also look okay.

I found out last night that my new region will be changing so if I want to compete at the regionals down here I will need to upgrade and buy the new transponders. It is infuriating for me so much so I was just put off going racing today as planned to race at the TORCH winter series as I thought I cant afford the tyres to race if Im going to need to buy these new transponders.

Its times like this I did wish I was still up north and I take my hat off to my old club YORCC for them sticking up for what I think is right. I think this whole situation sticks!

Before anyone says its progress etc I cant honestly remember the last time I saw a problem with missed laps. I see that it works fine so why change? It seems to be like clubs are being bullied into this and brainwashed into thinking it is actually better for us all.


Sell the MRT's on ebay, then buy AMB then your future proof !!

[Dudders]

Incorrect. SHRCCC have no plans to upgrade.

Thanks for the reply guys. Okay I understand. It seems like such an unnecessary expense. Im in my first proper job from uni so don't earn a great deal. I have to plan my racing budget carefully now it seems I have to buy these new transponders. Since my move down south I don't belong to a club anymore so wont be able to get any of the discount. This sort of thing can stop me from racing for a month. We all already know the cost of racing is huge anyway without having to replace things that work fine.

I have had no problems since MRT sold me two clones for the price of one. They have never skipped a beat and fit in the car easily and also look okay.

I found out last night that my new region will be changing so if I want to compete at the regionals down here I will need to upgrade and buy the new transponders. It is infuriating for me so much so I was just put off going racing today as planned to race at the TORCH winter series as I thought I cant afford the tyres to race if Im going to need to buy these new transponders.

Its times like this I did wish I was still up north and I take my hat off to my old club YORCC for them sticking up for what I think is right. I think this whole situation sticks!

Before anyone says its progress etc I cant honestly remember the last time I saw a problem with missed laps. I see that it works fine so why change? It seems to be like clubs are being bullied into this and brainwashed into thinking it is actually better for us all.

[Si Coe]

Sell the MRT's on ebay, then buy AMB then your future proof !!

Yes, because you are bound to get good money for a now forced into being obsolete MRT.

[Superstar]

Incorrect. SHRCCC have no plans to upgrade.

To compete in the full Mid south regional series this year I need to upgrade. CORRECT!

I didn't know about SHRCCC not upgrading. I will be trying to get across more often in the future! Good on you!

[Dudders]

Erm, we have a regional! Lol and I'm not sure all others are either? I only know of torch and Silverstone?

[knighthawk]

Yes, because you are bound to get good money for a now forced into being obsolete MRT.

Sorry I'm not trying to get dragged into another AMB/Mylaps/MRT argument here.

There are racers selling MRT's on here, on MB and eBay for respectable money, some sell for the same as secondhand AMB PT's, approx £40-50

I only posted an option

[mark christopher]

DEFINITELY wont

or MAYBE wont ??

Hmm I heard somin today along those lines. Maybe an indepented test is needed?

[fencer39]

Personally I see this new system as blatent profiteering by mylaps. They purposefuly made the new system to be incompatible with the MRT transponders because basic business sense says that every mrt bought is not a sale for them, so they were loosing money.
Hence the new amb.

This sport is getting pricey enough without this.

If every MRT owner got on the case and told the BRCA so, then maybe they will change their mind about using it.

If not then they (brca) should bloody well stand up for all those that support the them.

[terry.sc]

If every MRT owner got on the case and told the BRCA so, then maybe they will change their mind about using it.

If not then they (brca) should bloody well stand up for all those that support the them.
A couple of points.
The BRCA isn't a they, the BRCA is you and every other member. The BRCA isn't a separate organisation, it's just a bunch of fellow members who do what the rest of us want them to do.
For each section that have their own timing equipment to upgrade their decoder would need someone to propose it at the AGM and the members to vote it in.

For any section that doesn't have their own timing equipment and uses the clubs timing equipment for race meetings, the BRCA can't force the clubs to upgrade their decoder, but the BRCA can't force clubs to stick with their old decoders either.

For clubs that don't run BRCA sanctioned meetings, then the BRCA has nothing to do with what every club does, the decision to upgrade or not is entirely down to the individual club.

[fencer39]

Thanks for the reply Terry.
So, the brca or somebody from it has approached mylaps and expressed concern for all those members with incompatible equipement?

Or does the brca not really have any influence other than just offering an insurance service?

[mikeyscott]

To compete in the full Mid south regional series this year I need to upgrade. CORRECT!

I didn't know about SHRCCC not upgrading. I will be trying to get across more often in the future! Good on you!

Josh, drop me an email