Are motor winds irrelevant?

[mtbd500]

Guys, I have been into rc for a long time and I have driven most things, mainly onroad with X-ray nt1 and t3 so i know fast cars and I had preconceived notions about motor winds, ie 13.5 and 10.5 are for touring cars, 7.5, 8.5 for 2wd and lower for 4wd but my mind is now blown, earlier today I fitted a £20.00 tower pro motor from giant shark into a b4 I fixed up and installed a hobbywing ver2.1 esc with the hw supercharged stock software installed, I ran NO Turbo and 50deg of a max possible 64 deg boost with a23pinion and a new gens ace 5000 lipo and this buggy was ballistic, I am talking speed run territory much much faster than my 6.5 on mod firmware in a dex410 and faster than 1/8brushless buggy on mod fw 4s lipo so with the new advances in firmware it seems to me not to be a question of what wind to run but buy a motor and program the power you want. God help the newcomers if they are running boosted motors.

[peetbee]

so what rating is the motor you have? or am i missing something there!

[mtbd500]

Sorry I missed the crucial bit it was a 13.5 tower pro motor, that is why I was so amazed.

[mtbd500]

I am gonna see if I can strap an iPhone in it and see the speed, got to be 50 to 60 easy, the cars on the main road are doing 30 to 40 and it was miles faster than the traffic, I reckon I must have hit it on the sweet spot, there is a speed camera with a led readout nearby but I don't think it will detect something so small.

[sparkyboy22]

Put 50 degrees advance on your 6.5 as well and it will be faster.

[Lonestar]

I think there are more irrelevant things than motor winds, really ... :P

[mtbd500]

Put 50 degrees advance on your 6.5 as well and it will be faster.

Your missing the point, I don't think anyone thought a 13.5 could do 50mph when brushless was new.

[mtbd500]

I think there are more irrelevant things than motor winds, really ... :P

Maybe i did not word it the best way in my excitement. What I was trying to say is that wind numbers do not mean so much as the old days when a 13.5 can be made to output the same power or more as a 5.5, you may as well produce the most efficient motor and tune whatever power you want with firmware, I think that may be the way it goes in the future. I am worried people will think I am exaggerating but unless you have used the supercharge firmware or browsed the supercharged forums it really is a massive leap in performance.

[mtbd500]

You cannot run supercharged firmware on a mod motor, it would rip itself apart.

[DCM]

Although yes, you can make a 13.5 silly fast, but by doing so, you risk overheating your motor and your esc, as the current draw is silly high when you run that amount of timing, even worse, trying to race with it on a track would be much harder than an 8.5 to.

[peetbee]

But would you get the same torque from a boosted 13.5 lower in the rev range?
Ultimate straight line speed is academic for the majority of tracks.

[mtbd500]

Although yes, you can make a 13.5 silly fast, but by doing so, you risk overheating your motor and your esc, as the current draw is silly high when you run that amount of timing, even worse, trying to race with it on a track would be much harder than an 8.5 to.
Theoretically you are right but after 5 minutes neither esc nor motor were warm so I am nowhere near the limit although it was about minus 3 deg when I done it.i agree it would be hard to race such a fast motor but I was trying make the point that a supercharged 13.5 can easily emulate an 8.5 power output or even lower.

[mtbd500]

But would you get the same torque from a boosted 13.5 lower in the rev range?
Ultimate straight line speed is academic for the majority of tracks.
The supercharged firmware dynamically increases timing.boost through the whole rev range so yes, even boosted to crazy revs the torque also increases exponentially so you can have a ridiculous top speed and still spin the tyres from a dead stop if you wish. I totally agree that ultimate straight line speed is academic but I was just trying to express the power that can be produced by supposedly mild winds with the latest technology. My theory is that supercharged "stock" winds would match lap times of mod motors on most tracks and even beat them on a huge 8th style track. The crazy thing is that a £58 esc has turned out to be the fastest unit on the market. If this thread interested anyone check out the supercharged stock software forum, some interesting reading.

[mattr]

but I was trying make the point that a supercharged 13.5 can easily emulate an 8.5 power output or even lower.By the same token i can get 350+ bhp out of a 1.6 litre car engine, its not very nice to drive, is peaky as hell, needs to be rebuilt every ~50 hours, overheats at the slightest provocation, drinks fuel (far more than a 4 litre/350bhp would), and burns oil.

The only real benefit is that its small and light and cheaper (possibly).

You don't even get that going from a 8.5 to a 13.5.

But i agree, in principle, the lines between the turns have been massively blurred since brushless came on the scene, with the old motors it was pretty easy to assess which motor would be faster, just by the spec. With brushless, far less chance of being right.

[Alan Reeves]

A side note from this thread but which software version are you running?

[DCM]

Theoretically you are right but after 5 minutes neither esc nor motor were warm so I am nowhere near the limit although it was about minus 3 deg when I done it.i agree it would be hard to race such a fast motor but I was trying make the point that a supercharged 13.5 can easily emulate an 8.5 power output or even lower.

Where were you running it, defo not on a track, or under race conditions, as you would be cooking things.

[mtbd500]

Yes you are right, i was just speed running it up and down a main road and It was frigid.

[mtbd500]

A side note from this thread but which software version are you running?
On this run I was using the v3.0 110930? Supercharged stock firmware not sure if those numbers are exactly right but you would recognise it, basically the stock firmware in the latest v3.0 download from. Hobbywing.

[Si Coe]

I've been using boosted 10.5's for a couple of years now in 2 and 4wd. With enough boost it can hang with the 6.5's on the straights and has the advantage that I can reduce the boost for tight tracks and slippery conditions. In effect it can be several motors in one.
However its not perfect. A boosted motor lacks the low end punch of a hotter wind - I actually prefer this most of the time but it can be an issue when you approach a jump at low speed. Battery use is higher than for conventional setups which is no surprise as that energy is lost as heat. Things run bit hotter than normal, but not excessive. However motor life is certainly less.

[vrooom]

I've been using boosted 10.5's for a couple of years now in 2 and 4wd. With enough boost it can hang with the 6.5's on the straights and has the advantage that I can reduce the boost for tight tracks and slippery conditions. In effect it can be several motors in one.
However its not perfect. A boosted motor lacks the low end punch of a hotter wind - I actually prefer this most of the time but it can be an issue when you approach a jump at low speed. Battery use is higher than for conventional setups which is no surprise as that energy is lost as heat. Things run bit hotter than normal, but not excessive. However motor life is certainly less.
I run 10.5T motor with hobbywing esc, it lack low down torque out of corner. it is easy to drive.

[MattK]

I get where you are coming from but could there be a flipside to this. What I mean is you could go in the opposite direction with this and make a really low wound motor in mass (To get the cost down, economies of scale etc..) and use the software to soften it to matching charateristics of softer motors. Then everyone would only need to buy one speed contoller and motor and use the software to define class or power requirment. Just a thought.

[tisher]

here's another one to throw in the pot we run the smallest pinions we can get on our 410s 17t and 18t pinions yet we are quicker down the straight than most cars so do pinions make a difference any more with these escs?:confused:

[Si Coe]

Tish - Thats quite common. Brushless has so much torque it can pull really big gearings and everything looks good, but if you drop the gearing and let the motor rev instead you get just as much performance.
Pinions aren't quite irrelevant, but the power band for a good brushless is so big that you can run a range of sizes without much difference.

Actually thats the real message here - modern systems can offer all the power you'll ever want in a single package and you can tune to your needs. How you get there doesn't matter because when we can only use 80% of the potential anyway you don't need the most efficient way.....

[mtbd500]

If anyone is finding they are lacking oomph with boosted motors I would recommend to try out running with no turbo at all on the esc as the quickest way to heat everything up is for the unit to be applying turbo in an unsuitable rev range ( think flooring your real life road car in 4th gear at 10mph) and run lot's of boost only ,an example for 13.5 ...
Boost start rpm 4000rpm
Turbo timing 0deg
Boost 40deg of a possible 64deg
Fdr 6.00fdr
Don't forget brushless is opposite to brushed , you will get more oomph out the corners with a bigger pinion not smaller
I have been playing with the hobbywing stuff for a few years now but it was not until I speed ran it off track that I saw how far it could go
The latest hobbywing download is now out, ver 3.2 which contains supercharged,mod and blinky,