FRCC Invitational 2013

[Racing Snake]

All,

with the success of this years event the idea would now be to keep this going & turn it into one of the events that Scottish Region is know for. We did a great job raising over £1000 for Yorkhill Children's Hospital thanks mainly to the efforts of Kenny Clark, so lets do it again.

I have to discuss some things with the FRCC committee however for the moment I'm going out on a limb as the ideas flow. The main idea is to turn this into a 2 day event:

possible formats


Oople Style



Saturday = Practice & 4 rounds of Qualifying (both 2WD & 4WD)
Sunday = 1 round Qualifying & 3 leg Finals for all (both 2WD & 4WD)



Normal Format



Saturday = 2WD Qualifying & Finals (short practice at the begining of the day)
Sunday = 4WD Qualifying & Finals (short practice at the begining of the day)



This obviously means that if competitors are travelling from faraway reaches of the country that they would have 2 nights accommodation to deal with as well. So with this in mind I'd very much like to leave this thread open to the masses to provide some feedback on this idea.

Thanks

[orinoco]

Sounds Great, I'm for 2wd sat and 4wd sun. More time to concentrate on setups, coz you know how much I like to tinker and change my setups between rounds.

[sidawson]

I like the sound of the oople style.

I will make a suggestion that Kenny and Nathan get a weight restriction to give some mere mortals a chance :p say 8 KG :woot:

[V6Jim]

It's gotta be the 2WD Saturday, 4WD Sunday. Quite a few folks will only do one class (ie me) and to appear for two days to run one class isn't on....

Can't think of any good reason for the Oople style really...

Jimmy

[discothesnake]

It's gotta be the 2WD Saturday, 4WD Sunday. Quite a few folks will only do one class (ie me) and to appear for two days to run one class isn't on....

Can't think of any good reason for the Oople style really...

Jimmy

OOple style is defo the way to go! It's cracking. Relaxed and you've got loads of time between races.

That's the way I think it should go.

[V6Jim]

Doesn't make any sense to me.

If you had only 2WD in one day it would be super relaxed too. I can't speak for others, but if I was only running one class I would find it hard to justify being there for two days!

Most drivers who attend Oople events would be running both classes, so that works OK at an event of that status.

Jimmy

[discothesnake]

Not true Jimmy. 90% of people who attend the oOple race run just one class (because you have to) and it lasts two days. Loads of time between rounds. Ive done it two years running and its a great format.

We've been over this before and we don't have enough racers in Scotland to do 1 class per day.

Think of how many racers were there on Sunday. 5 heats. If you took 1 class away from that there would 24/25 cars. And that was a busy meeting.

Wouldn't work I'm afraid.

[paul whittock]

I can see jimmys point of view I only run one class aswell and I travel from Sutherland (Inverness) . If it was to take place over a two day period it would work out to costly. But I also like the oople way if I lived closer to the event I would say yes. But saying that its all for a good cause so I would deffo go anyway the racing was awesome. Maybe something could be done about pit space thou it was tight in the back room a few more racers and you couldent move.

[V6Jim]

Not true Jimmy. 90% of people who attend the oOple race run just one class (because you have to) and it lasts two days. Loads of time between rounds. Ive done it two years running and its a great format.

We've been over this before and we don't have enough racers in Scotland to do 1 class per day.

Think of how many racers were there on Sunday. 5 heats. If you took 1 class away from that there would 24/25 cars. And that was a busy meeting.

Wouldn't work I'm afraid.

I assume John is wanting to expand the meeting to two days in order to attract more entries? As Paul has pointed out, more entries would be pretty much impossible to handle in the Hall at Grangemouth. I would say the capacity of that hall would be about 30 - 40 drivers. So another venue would have to be considered anyway. Without an increase in numbers a two day meeting isn't necessary.

If you then get an increase in numbers to justify the two day meeting the format could be either Oople or normal. It may just be me, but I still don't think the Oople format makes any sense at all. Even if you run both classes and especially if you only run one.

Jimmy

[sidawson]

I would say the capacity of that hall would be about 30 - 40 drivers.

Jimmy

We regularly used to run with 50+ drivers on a Friday night with tourers.

The hall is bigger than you think guys we in the past have used the front of the hall in the corridor by the kitchen and there is also a smaller hall off to the side that is accessible so space isn't an issue

[discothesnake]

I agree that it was a bit of a squeeze but do you have any idea the cost of hiring a large gym hall? It's catch 22 I'm afraid.

You need the numbers to attend to hire a big hall.
We don't have them.
You need to run to a format to suit drivers who run both classes to keep the numbers up.
You need to suit drivers who run one class as they don't want to run both days. Eh?

What happens if someone who wants to run 2wd only works on a Saturday?
If you run the oOple format there is racing both days for both classes.

If I (or anyone else) races down south, we have to stay in hotels. You could look to do that and save on traveling.

There is ways round it and I know John is just puting out feelers but I reckon oOple format would be best.

[StevieD]

Si,s right we had 53 racers with touring cars on the friday night in the hall.
The oople format works well. I am like dave been the last 2 of them only run 2wd as thats all i have. If you get a chance to go to oople you will find out its the way to go for relaxed racing.

[V6Jim]

What happens if someone who wants to run 2wd only works on a Saturday?
If you run the oOple format there is racing both days for both classes.

Surely then that person couldn't enter the Oople format meeting at all then? Whatever class he ran? Or can you just attend on the Sunday despite it being a two day meeting?

Jimmy

[discothesnake]

I suppose technically you could If you ran the meeting to FTQ format. You could turn up on Sunday morning, do one qualifier and stick it on pole!

You are obviously not convinced Jimmy but if you run it to 2wd on Saturday and 4wd on Sunday, you are stopping someone who only runs one class from racing both days. To me that is unfair if it's only to suit a handful of people who only want to run one class.

[jason-l]

I think I'd prefer 'Normal' format, ie. like EOS Finals.

Unless someone can demonstrate how the oOple style schedules work, I'm struggling to see how it makes a day significantly more relaxed (if youre in both classes)?

Example, if you're running both classes:

Normal - 4 heats and 3 finals Sat (7 driving + 7 marshalling = 14 x 5 mins = 70 mins), repeated on Sunday.

oOple - 8 heats Sat (8 driving + 8 marshalling = 16 x 5 mins = 80 mins), then 6 finals Sun (6 driving + 6 marshalling = 12 x 5 mins = 60 mins)

The 'hours worked' are very similar... oOple has slightly greater workload Sat (80 mins 'duties' vs 70 mins), slightly lesser workload Sunday (60 mins 'duties' vs 70 mins) - but with single class guys having to travel both days when their saved cash could help them help the charity :confused:

Also, is there not an elephant in the room when discussing the oOple format in the context of a Grangemouth winter charity meet? ie. this is a meeting in an urban location in winter - both precluding cheap overnighting in tents and a Sat night party atmosphere... which is surely part of what makes oOple style work (which I hope to experience in 2013 :) )?

[discothesnake]

I'm actually starting to lose the will to live on this one.

EOS style format does not work up here as we do not have the numbers!

The reason we are discussing this is to try and come up with an alternative format, not throw obstacles in the way.

Try and be a bit more positive.

[StevieD]

Best thing the doubters could do is enter the oople event which is normaly in july. Then that gives them the experience of how it runs. Plus plenty of time to organise frcc event to suit.

[V6Jim]

I'm actually starting to lose the will to live on this one.

EOS style format does not work up here as we do not have the numbers!

The reason we are discussing this is to try and come up with an alternative format, not throw obstacles in the way.

Try and be a bit more positive.

The reason for this thread is to discuss the pros and cons of whatever format we might think appropriate. If it happens that we disagree with your veiwpoint it doesn't mean we're 'throwing obstacles in the way'.

If there is insufficient numbers for two days racing separate classes then the event should be over one day only. If there is sufficient numbers for a two day meeting then I still think separate classes per day still makes sense.

I'm not an unintelligent man, but I still absolutely fail to see any advantage in running this meeting Oople style.

Separate days for me.

Jimmy

[discothesnake]

Fair enough Jimmy. It's nothing to do with people disagreeing with me, I'm just trying to explain how these meetings run.

Sure, one class suits you as you have one car. People with two cars end up being frustrated due to lack of time. Running two classes means 14 races and that's crazy.

Remember, the people who run two classes are the ones who are keeping the number of cars up. Without them it'd be an extremely quiet meeting.

I'm not gonna say any more on the matter.

[sidawson]

I like the idea of the oople style as I will be running 2 classes next year and it will be my first ever with a 2wd so I like the idea of more setup time to get the most out of the car.

Look at the flip side of this. If you feel you have free time go and see a junior and ask how there getting on. Offer to help setup there car help them make changes to improve there weekends racing and teach them what to do.

It's only toy cars guys.

[V6Jim]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would run 14 races whatever format is chosen, if you have two cars....:eh?:

Anyway, yes, I'll keep an eye on this thread to see if someone can enlighten me to the benefits of the Oople format with regard to this meeting.

Jimmy

[jason-l]

Fair enough Jimmy. It's nothing to do with people disagreeing with me, I'm just trying to explain how these meetings run.

Sure, one class suits you as you have one car. People with two cars end up being frustrated due to lack of time. Running two classes means 14 races and that's crazy.

Remember, the people who run two classes are the ones who are keeping the number of cars up. Without them it'd be an extremely quiet meeting.

I'm not gonna say any more on the matter.

Dave, with respect, you haven't explained anything - you've simply declared oOple is better because it creates more free time (without explaining how) and left it at that. And nobody is disagreeing with you, we are simply expressing our preferences. As Jim says, this thread is to discuss - how can it be a discussion if you reply as you did to me.

As per my previous post, oOple format is being promoted for the reason that it gives drivers more free time - but that is simply not the case, you don't have to have been to oOple or whatever to be able to do the maths... You're essentially subtracting the number of times you drive/marshall from the length of the day. The answer is as near as damnit the same for oOple or Normal (see the numbers in my pervious post).

This thread is about a two day meeting and I'm not aware anyone has disagreed with that proposal, so why are you now talking about 14 races in one day?

[discothesnake]

Because Jason, 14 races in one day is what you do if run two classes. 4 qualifiers and 3 finals. If you run it over 2 days youd be racing 8 times a day. You gain time significantly. We need to get away from this 'rushing' to get a meeting finished. All this will do will put people off from running two classes.

If we insist on running it over one day then it should definitely be 1 final for all.

[jason-l]

I agree about the negativity of cramming it all in one day, Dave. Sunday was my first experience of 2 classes in one day (14 races, 10 marshall duties) and it was frantic/stressful to say the least. So I'm totally in favour of having it over 2 days - 1 day mayhem vs 2 day relaxed is not what I'm discussing. Please read my posts again.

My comments about free time comparisons are oOple vs Normal, ie. comparing the two 2 day meeting options John suggested we discuss.

[orinoco]

How's about just trying one way in 2013, and if it doesn't work well, try the other way in 2014. Toss a coin to decide which one should be the first tried. This threads getting a bit Mark Christopher/Frecklychimpish in my opinion. As Si said 'it's only toy cars' at a fun charity event.

[discothesnake]

I'm not arguing with anyone on this, i am really just trying to get accross that the two 2 day EOS style cant work as there are not enough racers up here.

We have to look at another way of running it and in my opinion the oOple format looks like it would work best.

4 qualifiers on Saturday per class - 8 races. 8 marshalling duties.
1 qualifier and 3 finals on Sunday - 8 races. 8 Marshalling duties.

Thats 6 races less per day if you crammed it in to one day.

If you run 1 class then obviosly it would be 4 races per day.

Also remember, if you only have one car you only get to run on one day. I think it's unfair to exclude anyone from running on both days.

If anyone comes up with a better solution then great.

[V6Jim]

I suppose the whole crux of the thing comes down to what the guys running a single class think.

If you're running two classes you get your 8 races a day. You're there for both days whatever format is run. Fine.

If you're running just one you only get 4 races per day. To me that's just not enough - taking the 'relaxed' theme a bit too far! I'm pretty sure I'd not want to either travel twice to the venue over two days or pay for the expense of a hotel to spend so little time on the track. (One race every two hours) :bored:

I'd be quite happy to not race over two days preferring one busy day to two long drawn out ones.

There must be others from the Scotland section with views on this?

Jimmy

Good thread this, by the way!

[paul whittock]

I agree jimmy I only run 1 class so to travel all that way for 4 races per day is not anoth time on track . The only way it would work is just to see how many people turn up on the day if the numbers are down just increase the amount of heats and finals , is there a strict rule on this ?

[KennyClark]

You guys are all crazy!
I can tell you if I have anything to do with organizing the next one and it becomes a 2 day event, it will be 2wd sat, 4wd Sunday.
It works for a brca national meeting so it will work for our wee meeting.
In my opinion its the format that suits most people.
Not everyone can commit to 2 days.

[Racing Snake]

We cannot aim to make it fair for everyone as that is totally impossible.

Splitting the classes across the 2 days i.e.

2WD Saturday
4WD Sunday

I think will work best up here as it makes things much simpler to organise & also easier for the racers as they have only 1 class to concentrate on per day. From the responses I've had personally the above is what people want & is most likely to be the format for 2013.

The aim is to have an enjoyable event & cramming it all into 1 day just causes stress. I also believe we will have even more guys from south of the border next year so means more heats to organise.

[V6Jim]

You guys are all crazy!
I can tell you if I have anything to do with organizing the next one and it becomes a 2 day event, it will be 2wd sat, 4wd Sunday.
It works for a brca national meeting so it will work for our wee meeting.
In my opinion its the format that suits most people.
Not everyone can commit to 2 days.

Purrrrrcisely!

:thumbsup:


Jimmy

[Racing Snake]

The pitting in the back room is hampered at the moment due to the electrical fault with the lighting, hence the temporary lighting. However at the far end of the hall there is ample space for more pitting plus a 2nd hall which is about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the main hall which can be used in the future.

We used to have around 15+ people who used to pit in the back room in the touring car days of the club.

The main reason for this thread is to get ideas, constructive criticism & gauge interest for a 2 day event.

[V6Jim]

We cannot aim to make it fair for everyone as that is totally impossible.

Splitting the classes across the 2 days i.e.

2WD Saturday
4WD Sunday

I think will work best up here as it makes things much simpler to organise & also easier for the racers as they have only 1 class to concentrate on per day. From the responses I've had personally the above is what people want & is most likely to be the format for 2013.

The aim is to have an enjoyable event & cramming it all into 1 day just causes stress. I also believe we will have even more guys from south of the border next year so means more heats to organise.

You'd ideally be looking for 40 - 60 drivers per class. I'm sure you could encourage more drivers to travel up from England and possibly over from Ireland with the right publicity. If Nathan and Co can do it so can others.

Jimmy

[discothesnake]

I would love to to be able to run a meeting to that format up here.

If we could get 40-60 drivers per class it would be awesome.

[traffman]

2wd saturday , 4wd sunday sounds like a decent compromise.

I'm just thinking of the people travelling from further afield .

Happy Crimboid.

[ClydeBuilt]

Is it still going to be invitation only then?

For causes like that its more of a 'donation' than a race fee for me, any chance of a 'completely crap' class? I drive like a kid in baby-stroller chasing the cat Im afraid!

Wullie

[ClydeBuilt]

I agree that it was a bit of a squeeze but do you have any idea the cost of hiring a large gym hall? It's catch 22 I'm afraid..

Have you considered that the cost of the hall might be waived when the good cause is made known to who ever owns/runs the hall?

[V6Jim]

Have you considered that the cost of the hall might be waived when the good cause is made known to who ever owns/runs the hall?

Good idea!

Jimmy

[sidawson]

It's a berry good idea but we still have to transport al the kit to build the track which is no mean feat

[discothesnake]

Large halls can cost anything from £400 to £700 for a weekends racing. If someone can find one for free for TWO days then that'd be incredible.

Also as Simon says, when racing at a hall that's not your own, we need to find transport. There's lots to organising these meetings. Ask John!

[jason-l]

Ignoring the logistics of moving the track kit, I'd quite like it to stay in our usual FRCC venue anyway - the hall size (hence track size), pitting space, etc all give character and identity IYSWIM.

It would preserve the fact our two Scottish indoor autumn biggies - West Coast Open being the other (apols it there are others I'm not aware of) - have quite different characters, which I think is a good thing.

[Racing Snake]

I had looked into getting another hall which was at an initial cost of nearly £500 for 10 hours. When I told them it was a charity meeting that got reduced to around £200 for the same 10 hours.

The hall that FRCC uses & has used for around 17 years is unbeatable value for money plus I can get access to the hall pretty much when I require. Yes the hall isn't huge but it is pretty big, there is still more pit space available if it's required.

The other issue with other halls is getting in early enough as most don't open till 9am on a Sunday.

[V6Jim]

So, we're staying put.
Good thing about that is that you already know what your upper limit is for entries. Can you handle 60 per class?

Better get my entry in now!

Jimmy

[paul whittock]

In the early 90s I used to race touring cars. Once a year we had a big meeting of 60 plus . We used a farm building instead of a hall these building are massive I'm not thinking farm yard style with hay and stuff , think more area 51 . There must be bags of big buildings in your area , we could even hold it in a public arena , shopping malls , warehouses , ect.

[traffman]

In Callendar Park Falkirk , they used to have a Spring Fling and every year we ran outdoors .

Sadly the council pulled the plug on the Fling and we never returned.

The councils allways have the final say , they can be good or c...s.

[paul whittock]

We're you clothed when you all ran , it might be a reason why they pulled the plug on ya. :p