Off road buggys running onroad tyres

[funkygrump81]

Whats everyones opinion on this , i noticed theres more n more buggys runnin foams now not too mention the amount of additive theyre using , personally i dnt see the point theyre supposed be off road cars , if you waant too run foams buy a mardave or a touring car !!! . I noticed my minipins arent working aswell now with all the additive thts gettin put down on the carpet , whats the clubs view are we going too ban foams on buggys ????

[corsa148]

Can't see why there needs to be a ban on them many clubs run them I think if the club allows them? Then if foams are your thing use them or the other way round with pins each to there own don't know what the big problem is with people spitting there dummy out over them :confused::confused:

[tisher]

here's my opinion foams make a buggy like a c car now a few of the A final lads are running them it will only be a matter of weeks before everyone will have to run them they already take a second a lap off the times.
Nobody with pins will be able to keep up. Now if everyone starts running them it will end up rotting the carpet or will make it crap for any other tyres
I personally think foams should be for mardaves only
on the other side of the coin 20+ years ago thats all we all run on buggies indoors I remember the horrible smell of the track tight that we ran. But the racing was a lot closer back then so do foams actually make the racing smoother because you get better control with them... So which is the better of the two evils I don't know

[Andy-j.smith6]

Glad someone else posted this, was thinking the same but think people are probably tired of my posts on here.

I was wondering the same. Still running pins, but definately think its now costing me. Foams seem to be definately quicker, plus will probably last way better than pins, so could make keeping competitive much more cost effective.

Having said that, it feels completely wrong puttung onroad tyres on an off road car. Anybody got any track ideas that would be rubbish for foams:thumbsup:

Years ago the chorley club used inverted guttering as a bumpy section.

Anyway as martin said if it continues everyone will be on foams, I am seriously considering it. If thats what we want no worries, if not better to nip it in the bud now.

[adprim]

well my car handle so differently through out the night just the pure fact that more additive was getting in the carpet, i found the racing was ok with 8 in a heat where their plenty of room to overtake but with 10 in a heat is not raceable but i am running 2wd, so if people r using foams split the 2wd's and 4wd's, i dont think u can mix 2 types of tyre in the same race, speeds r too different

[MattK]

Easy answer is Ban the use of additive on foam tyres for buggys.
Foams become too slow then.

[singin pete]

We will be having a committee meeting before the AGM within the next two weeks, this and other items will be discussed. Please remember that any changes to the rules should come from the members as long as its not detrimental to the club. Such a change can only made at the AGM.

As the Mardaves have always run with additive this shouldn't change for them. Someone said on Friday that changes to the track would cancel out the foams, if this can be done it wouldn't need a change in rules.

Please put any proposals to the committee.

Peter

[Robby]

Easy answer is Ban the use of additive on foam tyres for buggys.
Foams become too slow then.

:thumbsup: That's the answer!

[coleman758]

Run buggys with no tyres! They will be really slow then!

[funkygrump81]

Like ur thinking matt cheaper racing all round haha

[Lee1972]

well my car handle so differently through out the night just the pure fact that more additive was getting in the carpet, i found the racing was ok with 8 in a heat where their plenty of room to overtake but with 10 in a heat is not raceable but i am running 2wd, so if people r using foams split the 2wd's and 4wd's, i dont think u can mix 2 types of tyre in the same race, speeds r too different

Me and Callum have been of the same opinion for some time now that 2wd and 4wd should be split.

[Lee1972]

Wayne,
We are racing off road cars but not on an off road circuit, it's only natural that racers will seek that extra competitive edge. Me and Callum don't currently run foams however if they aren't banned and more and more people start using them then we'll look at getting some.

[tisher]

Me and Callum have been of the same opinion for some time now that 2wd and 4wd should be split.


We had a big discussion at the last agm Lee about spliting them ..The problem you will get at Ribble is that the abilty levels you would race against would be so diffrenet that the top 2wd drivers would end up lapping people in there heats by 5 or 6 laps. Also you dont have a 50 /50 split of 2wd and 4wd unfortantly it seems most people favour 4wd so you would only end up with one heat of 2wds it would get a bit boring after a few weeks

[adamjimny]

i dont see it a problem 2wd in with 4wd as i like the idea of racing someone at the same speed as me. i found when driving 4wd it made me look a lot better due to the cornering holding ability. i dont think foams change this as it could only be the difference between a different make of tire aswell.

if anything its just people maybe using a little too much additive so a lot gets left on the track on the first lap. i always wipe of excess beforehand.

the additive that gets left on carpet i do find makes my buggy tires wear a lot faster but i know the need for it on gt12's so i dont think banning that will solve anything.

if people want to use foams then fine by me. people do the same when a new tire is used or when a tire is discovered that works better than the usual do we stop its use....no its the idea of racing. people use what they prefer for how they drive. id use foams if they were easy to find due to the constant grip feeling and how long they last compared to rubber tires wearing.

in the end its just someone has found a tire/foam more suitable for racing and its helped them beat another and they dont like it hahaha :p

[ianjoyner]

I think splitting 2/4 is more important than tyres. I only race 2WD and find it massively off putting to racing at Ribble that they are mixed in together.

It's not surprising that 4WD is more popular now, very difficult for 2WDs to compete with 4WDs. 4WD didn't used to be more popular and isn't typically at other clubs where the classes are separate.

The ability gap would be less of an issue because more would race 2WD if they were split. Also lapping/being lapped is an important skill and with a bit of care by both drivers shouldn't destroy the race.

A half way house would be to at least treat the classes separate, score points separately so the 2s/4s don't feel they're in the same race and would hopefully give each other more room on the track.

As for foams, I can't see appeal of being faster for the sake of it and I'd rather race pins, but at the same time they're not the worst thing in the world. They do last a long time, although this is less the case the more competitive you are as you seek to keep a good profile on them.

Racing's foams is far nicer without additive, we've banned it at South Lakes, it's not easy to police though, it's only done on trust. We have drivers who run the same tyres at Ribble with additive, but don't put on any on at South Lakes, obviously some effect of the additive is still there though. It's also hard to tell if someones pasted their tyres with it at home.

[bandit]

Has anyone got a link to where I can get foam tyres for my buggy?

[Jlc57]

2wd and 4wd are split in the series rankings, even though not each week. Ribble is an evening club with time limits so separating classes could mean less rounds or significant skills difference. I must admit that the discussions seem quite serious when Ribble is "racing for fun" and helps to bring the youngsters on.

[ianjoyner]

Ribble is "racing for fun" and helps to bring the youngsters on.

Gotta say you guys do a great job of that :thumbsup: don't know any other clubs with so many young 'uns.

[tisher]

Gotta say you guys do a great job of that :thumbsup: don't know any other clubs with so many young 'uns.


+1 for this we have some of the most talented under 16s in the country racing week in week out at Ribble and is one of the most friendly places to race but we do have a very decent class of adult racers that want a competitive race meet on a Friday night and Ribble provides this very well

[funkygrump81]

Well this is going nowere :confused: people are saying about the difference in ability if we split 2wd and 4wd that people will be gettin lapped more well this is already an issue 2wd is hard too keep up with 4wd but now with running foams is even worse theyre just lapping 2wd for fun , this means 2wd lads are constantly having too get out the way either tht of jus get rammed out the way which is going too get really annoying very quickly i know a few lads tht are already feelin this way , there was a big issue last week about the cars being too fast well now they are even faster and as one of the top lads said too me foams are great for loads of grip but when they let go you go off big because your going alot quicker with that grip , for such a small track surely theyre not needed ???!!!??!!?:D

[Pitman Ed]

1) The reality is that Ribble has a Mardave section, and thus it is effectivelty an on-road track. That's why treated foams will give an advantage - those of us who go back far enough have experienced that many times. Either foams are disqualified or most people will be on them. Yes it's racing for fun, but racers like to compete! Also with the amount of additive going on the carpet recently i've seen more cars grip roling and behaving in a more unpredictable manner.
2) The issue regarding running 2wd and 4wd together is clear cut in my view. I don't know any other club that does it. It forces the competitive drivers to run 4wd; that's why Ribble has so many 4wd entries. Every other club I know has more 2wd entries because they can compete on a level playing field. A couple of top drivers moaning about mixed abilities and lapping slower cars - tough - if your that good it shouldn't be a problem to you? But seriously, the classes are different and they should be separated. I'll guarantee more people will then drive 2wd. I went to Southport on Sunday - indoor track - mixed abilities - 7 heats - only one 4wd!!!

[mattr]

If the club allows additive, just switch to the VBC SE slicks.

Don't tear up the carpet, and grip wise, a half way house between pins and foams.

We have to use them as we share the track with the flatlanders.

[ericd2477]

1) The reality is that Ribble has a Mardave section, and thus it is effectivelty an on-road track. That's why treated foams will give an advantage - those of us who go back far enough have experienced that many times. Either foams are disqualified or most people will be on them. Yes it's racing for fun, but racers like to compete! Also with the amount of additive going on the carpet recently i've seen more cars grip roling and behaving in a more unpredictable manner.
2) The issue regarding running 2wd and 4wd together is clear cut in my view. I don't know any other club that does it. It forces the competitive drivers to run 4wd; that's why Ribble has so many 4wd entries. Every other club I know has more 2wd entries because they can compete on a level playing field. A couple of top drivers moaning about mixed abilities and lapping slower cars - tough - if your that good it shouldn't be a problem to you? But seriously, the classes are different and they should be separated. I'll guarantee more people will then drive 2wd. I went to Southport on Sunday - indoor track - mixed abilities - 7 heats - only one 4wd!!!
Hi Ed, not sure who you are but I am Eric the chairman of Ribble and I would just like to have my say on what the club has tried to do to accomodate different classes of racing.

1. Tried a control tyre for buggies - Racers did not like it.

2. Segregated 2wd and 4wd (when the numbers were less than we have now) - Racers said the beginers got in the way.

3. The number of racers at Ribble has increased over the last 18 months to between 65 and 75 on a Friday night, we must be doing something right.

4. Because of the numbers of racers we are limited to the number of races we can have during our limited time slot at wellfield - 3 hours or 180 minutes 7 heats 4mins + 2 mins gap * 4 rounds = 42*4 = 168 + 10 mins to set up finals = 178 mins.
It is very tight to organise a race meeting with the restriction of a 3 hour time slot . Many other clubs do not have this restriction along with the fact we have to put the track out and back away before we can go home.

5. If the majority of Buggy racers want to ban foams I have not got a problem with that.

6. If the majority of Buggy racers want to split 2wd and 4wd I have got a problem with that because we would have to limit the number of buggy racers to about 30 which would mean turning away between 20 and 30 racers on current numbers.

If anyone has some good ideas bearing in mind our current facilities and time constraints please feel free to let your representative on the committee know -for Buggies contact Shaun Reeve and for GT12 contact Kevin Appleby or contact any committee member.

Regards
Eric

[corsa148]

I would say its only a small amount of people hu don't want foams being used I would say the majority like them or want them if we have a problem with additive ban the use of that?

[RadioRacers]

Yes please if anyone has any views towards or against the running of tyres / additive etc then feel free to come and chat to me about it.

As Eric has mentioned over the last 3 years the club has tried to accommodate every eventuality. At the end of the day the club exists to serve the racers. It's run by the committee and they're individuals who have put there time and effort aside to run the Friday nights. But saying that all they want to do is listen to the general consensus and adapt to how the member feel that the club should be best run.

Those individuals, most who have been involved with the club since before I was even racing, have a wealth of experience in running it and the ideas that have/ have not been tried and tested. They’re more than happy to voice there opinions if you’ve got a suggestion, and if we all think it’ll help then we’ll be sure to give it a go and listen to feedback.


As for the tyre debate then I have had the opportunity to run and try both in recent weeks. Whilst foams provide much more traction they’re also quite edgy and can potentially cause more accidents, however I don’t think this is the main reason. When I’ve been running my car it goes roughly 0.5-0.7 seconds a lap quicker on foams with additive over mini pins.

Additive works by softening the outer layer of the tyre, essentially as softer shore rating (compound). This helps as it generates more traction whilst keeping the rest of the tyre stiff and stable.

Ban the additive and people will just go out and buy softer foams, these inevitably will wear quicker, thus increasing cost and time. They have more chance of chunking (large sections of the tyre coming loose), making them again more expensive. Lastly the actual tyre will have more chance of folding making the car less predictable and increasing the chance of accidents. And remember it can be an accident coming round a corner and loosing grip when overtaking. Making a bad race for more than just 1 person.


It's a hard one to call but at the end of the day it's not us that has to make the decision, it's you the members.

[tisher]

whats your suggestion then Shaun? Foams being banned or just go with it and run them? Either way for us it does not matter. I know Lee run them for the first time on friday and I had a go of his car and personally I think the car is quicker but more controllable. Also it would save us money on mini pins as we only get two weeks out of them.
But looking at it from a club perspective and talking from experience of racing at a club that only ever run foams on buggies it will eventually ruin the racing for anyone that does not want to run foams as like Ed said it will make mini pins grip very unpredictable this I have seen first hand and when new people turn up to race they will undoubtable struggle.
As regards the 2wd and 4wd debate like I said in previous posts the club has already tried it and did not seem to work but I am sure the commitee will no doubt bring it up again at the AGM.
Maybe it will be worth everyone running a 2wd to put a tick on the heat list so the club can see just how many are actually running in an evening.
I know I would rather run 2wd at ribble but I prefer Vaughn running 4wd as it gives him more control at the moment

[singin pete]

I agree with everything Eric has said (must be a first!!):thumbsup:

I don't have any problem banning foams if the majority of racers want it.

With the number of 4WD we have now it might be possible to run one heat of 4WD if the abilities allow with the rest fitting in with the 2WD but it would take a bit of sorting out on the night. Eric and myself can have a look but no promises.

Eric, Pitman Ed is Luke and Josh's Grandad.

Peter

[Si Coe]

Following what Ed mentioned, I think you'll find that the majority of your racers own a 2wd even if they run a 4wd at Ribble. When those same people run at Southport, Bury or Chadderton its almost always 2wd.
But as long as they run together 4wd will be the obvious choice, especially on a track like yours.

The solution to filling heats and dealing with novices is easy - run 3 classes. Basically have a 'Beginners' heat where it doesn't matter if you have 2 or 4wd and divide the rest up. As long as you get at least 10 for each. If the computer is set to recognise 2wd and 4wd for points scoring it should all work out balanced.

[jenski]

Time to stick my 50p in the pot....

I was the first people to run foams on my B44 and really kick all of this off. the reason I run foams is that we all run them at South Lakes due to them giving plenty of grip, don't destroy the carpet and are amazingly cost effective as I am still running my set that are on their second season!!!

There were no complaints when I was running my X6 the winter before when I was finishing in the top 3, it's only now that I am as quick as the very top people it has become such as issue.

In terms of making cars with foams slower, I am not sure how. You would do this. As banning additive wouldn't make a big difference with the mardaves still using it, so the track will still give plenty of grip. Making a course that has more lumps and jumps? We do the at South Lakes and it doesn't slow them down at all.

I simply refuse to my mini pins due to the cost implication as to be really competitive I would go through a set every few meetings at after buying tyres, wheels and inserts you are getting up to £30.

Not sure what the answer is to the tyre situation, but these are my views for what they are worth on the subject.

[tisher]

Time to stick my 50p in the pot....

I was the first people to run foams on my B44 and really kick all of this off. the reason I run foams is that we all run them at South Lakes due to them giving plenty of grip, don't destroy the carpet and are amazingly cost effective as I am still running my set that are on their second season!!!

There were no complaints when I was running my X6 the winter before when I was finishing in the top 3, it's only now that I am as quick as the very top people it has become such as issue.

In terms of making cars with foams slower, I am not sure how. You would do this. As banning additive wouldn't make a big difference with the mardaves still using it, so the track will still give plenty of grip. Making a course that has more lumps and jumps? We do the at South Lakes and it doesn't slow them down at all.

I simply refuse to my mini pins due to the cost implication as to be really competitive I would go through a set every few meetings at after buying tyres, wheels and inserts you are getting up to £30.

Not sure what the answer is to the tyre situation, but these are my views for what they are worth on the subject.


I dont think there is going to be anything done about running them as its better for the wood floor if they come off the track.
the only thing that is going to happen is everyone will use them so you will loose your advantage as I could do two laps more in a race with them compared to mini pins and its great for us because it will save a fortune on tyres;)

[Lee1972]

perhaps we should rename Friday night racing as Foam Friday :)

[jenski]

I dont think there is going to be anything done about running them as its better for the wood floor if they come off the track.
the only thing that is going to happen is everyone will use them so you will loose your advantage as I could do two laps more in a race with them compared to mini pins and its great for us because it will save a fortune on tyres;)

I'm not that fussed about loosing the advantage, I just go for the racing as it's just round the corner and I use foams anyway. I don't have the budget for minipins or the issues of setting my car up differently for racing at ribble or South Lakes.

[cr1tch]

Firstly addictive should not been banned nor should foams on buggies.... As for foams causing the carpet to deteriate I've never know this.... Morecombe has carpet that is still 20 years old that still in good condition from the foam days..

Minis pins I have found have caused an issue with the grip on my gt12 as they tend to scrub away the additive.

Foams will out last a set if mini pins so long as you keep them in good order and change them left to right after each round, their for being more cost effective than Mini pins.

How long does a set of mini pins last? Maybe two club nites if that!!!!

Also forgot the "FLUFF" that mini pins create and cause head aches for all on us...

My case closed and when I get my budgie lol I will opt for foams too....

So plus one from me on foams....

[Andy-j.smith6]

Anybody know where i can get some. Only seem to be able to find them premounted.

Thanks

[corsa148]

Anybody know where i can get some. Only seem to be able to find them premounted.

Thanks
I used the pre mounted ones an used acetone to get them off an then mout them to yours

[tisher]

you get them from schumacher 1/8th oval tyres all different shores

[Andy-j.smith6]

Does this sound right

JS451/8th Stock Car Donut 45Sh 46x70x36mm

Thanks for the help

[corsa148]

Does this sound right

JS451/8th Stock Car Donut 45Sh 46x70x36mm

Thanks for the help

Ye that's the size but there a 45shore you want more like a 37 I think a use 35 shore

[Andy-j.smith6]

Nice one thanks.

[jenski]

I did some interesting back to back testing last night. First heat on foams my faster lap was in the mid 11's. in round two put some mini's on and I recorded a slightly quicker faster lap and found the car was possibly a touch slower round the corners but I could go so much quicker over the jump at the end of the straight the overall lap time was nearly the same.

So for me there is nothing in it other than the cost implication. Minis last s couple of meetings, my foams are two seasons old and will easily do another year yet.

[tinnylad]

I found the same sort of results when I went from pins to foams in the summer jenski. Don't see the issue, get some foams and don't worry about buying tyres for a friday night for the next few YEARS instead of weeks. Makes racing more affordable for everyone!

[tisher]

I did some interesting back to back testing last night. First heat on foams my faster lap was in the mid 11's. in round two put some mini's on and I recorded a slightly quicker faster lap and found the car was possibly a touch slower round the corners but I could go so much quicker over the jump at the end of the straight the overall lap time was nearly the same.

So for me there is nothing in it other than the cost implication. Minis last s couple of meetings, my foams are two seasons old and will easily do another year yet.


Did you not find the car to be more consistent lap for lap on the foams?
I stuck a set foams on Vaughns car the other week it made him 2 secs a lap quicker and far more consistent so for us foams are deffo the way forward should save me around 40 quid a month on tyres:woot: I might stick a set on my 2wd and see how it performs

[jenski]

Did you not find the car to be more consistent lap for lap on the foams?
I stuck a set foams on Vaughns car the other week it made him 2 secs a lap quicker and far more consistent so for us foams are deffo the way forward should save me around 40 quid a month on tyres:woot: I might stick a set on my 2wd and see how it performs

It was interesting to see the difference really, on foams it was more precise and you could get really good lines but on pins it was far more forgiving and you gained a lot of time on the jump. I think a lot of it is down to driving style and preference. I ran my 2wd in the final due to me trashing the diff on my 4wd and it was really nice to drive on foam and I finished 4th overall which was decent enough.