Summer 2013 Season

[RCMadShane]

Summer 2013 Season

Hi all… It has been commented on that our championship is based on attendance rather than performance, so with this in mind the committee would like to propose the summer season is run to the attached guide…

Have a read and let me know what you think…

[LongRat]

As I see it the situation isn't any different. Only now, this rule will allow someone to compete equally in touring and GT12 with the chance to win both if they do well enough. There are still drop scores rounds as we have always had, so you can miss a few weeks and still have a decent chance in the championship.
Possibly one issue with attendance influencing the championship result is really due to the points scoring system. It is extremely difficult to make up a deficit due to lack of attendance because the winner takes home 30 points and second is so close in points - 29/30 = 97% of a win. I'm personally ok with how the current rules work, but if you wanted to improve this aspect the better method would be to increase the bonus for a win, F1 style... So the points from 1st to 5th might run 30, 22, 18, 15, 13 or something.

[J'MM'N]

Sorry to say it all seems a total nonsense to me and can't see what advantages it will bring. Although the championship is not the all to end all, it does add a little spice to the club racing. So why allow half the season racing for nothing, the only ones that gain any advantage from this are those racing both classes. If you don't want it to be an attendance championship, then make it the best 18-20 scores out of the 26 rounds.

Don't agree with the F1 scoring system either, sorry LR. Although in principle its a good idea and works well in other race programs, it doesn't suit our club racing as those at the bottom would never get any points and they as much as those at the top, want to finish the championship above like for like racers. A lot of championships give an extra point for FTD, why don't we take it a little further and give an extra point for winning your final, which would be yet another incentive for those down in the C or D finals.

Sorry if I sound a bit negative, but I think it could be done better to suit everyone:)

Could someone point me in the direction of the GERCC’s own GT12/Mardave rules, as I'd be interested.

[Gunter]

I think the idea behind it was so that for those who can't make all that many weeks due to other commitments (work, family etc) they would still be able to feature In the champs and could sort work/fam around the weeks that would just be pratice nights for them. So making it fair on everyone and not just who can make most weeks.

I can't see how the only ones to gain an advantage are people doing both classes cos there nothing stopping people from doing both classes each week currently, it's just a very busy night so but can be done.

Doing this format would also allow nights to just try things and pratice and not endanger any champ points.

Another advantage would be that cars which don't meet one of the champ classes (TC or GT12) would be able to run freely with the class of cars that isnt having a championship night, therefor the racing for the champs would only have like for like cars in their races making the racing cleaner and fair.

And with the extra point for winning there finals wouldn't really work as currently GERCC work slightly differently to most clubs and the qualifying is worked on a FTD basis but the finals are also done in the same way so someone in the B final could win overall of they got the fastest time. Not sure how many peopl aware of this mind.

[RogerM]

From my prospective it would be a disaster!!!

I'd almost bet my house on the fact that all the weeks I could make it would be snooring carp rounds and thus I'd simply stay away as the drivers I'd want to race against would be concentrating on that not GT12.

Leave it as is, let people make the choice what to run. I've no vested interest as at best I could probably do 3 weeks in a 5 week month so no chance of featuring in the championship either way .... not even if I TQ and win every week, which of course I intend to do ;):p

[Baldy1986]

To be honest, I am currently sat on the fence and unsure. I have had a think, and here are my (as far as possible) subjective thoughts. It is a bit of an essay, but summit to think about...


Championship every week
Pros
- Competitive racing every week in all classes.
- No matter who turns up when, all will be fighting.
- Getting monies worth every week.
- When focussing on one class, potentially greater chance of beating those spreading focus on two classes.

Cons
- Potentially more expensive - using 'best' tyres every week, for example.
- Less willingness/ability to experiment - with only 2 qualifying races and one final, why change setup and risk a race result?
- When using 2 classes, manic race night every week.

Alternative weeks are championship
Pros
- More willingness to play with setup, experiment a bit more, try new things.
- Potentially cheaper as 'lower quality' parts could be used, such as tyres as it isn't as competitive.
- Less stressful for those racing two classes, as one class is more relaxed.
- Those willing to race 'other' types of cars will be able to race, and in a race which will not affect other championship positions.

Cons
- Every other week could be less fun/less competitive.
- Will this return racing to who has the deepest pockets, as those with greater ability to experiment will benefit most?
- Fewer competitive nights over season will be discounted.

Questions - these aren't weighted just to think about.
- Drivers are worried that they will only be able to attend nights that are non championship - does this matter, as if they are only racing occasional nights, they will not be competitive in the current championship operation anyway?
- Is another idea just to discount more out of the current championship operation, rather than placing specifics dates which do/do not count?
- Is this likely to affect a certain range of drivers - ie, do youngsters/beginners care (Y - they like to be in a championship/N - they just want to race)? Or is this aimed at those who are able to/wanting to experiment for nationals/bigger race weekends?
- Will either choice have an affect on attracting new members/retaining members?
- What happens when a new class of racing appears, or one of these dies out? Will it just be one week on/off or three week rotational cycles? I know this is referring specifically to the Summer 2013 season, but to think about.

[Baldy1986]

God, I am too exciting for my own good looking at that lol...

[RogerM]

What I meant by my statement Baldy was that if this came to be then you would lose some drivers that couldn't make it every week from the club altogether. Why would you go to a club you couldn't race people of a similar ability because they were racing alternating classes? For me it couldn't give a monkeys about the championship, I just want to race against people like Gunter & have no interest in being bashed about with the less experienced drivers, no offence meant to them.
When will this be decided? Don't want to spend more money until it is in case I can no longer race the class.

[RCMadShane]

Please “don’t panic” guys no changes have been implemented.

This Pol / Request has originated from you the Members and the Committee have had a look and hence the proposal.

We have drivers who would like more practice time… Sometimes it is nice to be able to try something different without worrying about your points.

We have Drivers who cannot come every week… Some drivers feel penalised as they are unable to come every week and the current system does not allow for them to be counted..

We have drivers frustrated by outlaw cars… Drivers have complained that they are taken out by cars not fighting for championship points.

As people have asked the questions it is the decision of the Committee to review. You are our business and you have the choice to air your opinions and these will be taken into account.

[Simion Wabs]

I am defo against this.

If I can understand this correctly, the main purpose of the change is to allow people "free" weeks to tweak their car without the risk of losing championships points. As a % of club racers, how many are considering small changes week in week out? 10%, 20% max!
The most simple way to provide people with an opportunity to "tweak/setup" their car would be to reduce number of Championship weeks.

So instead of best 40 /46 make it the best 30/46. That means the weeks you have reduced your cars performance through "tweaking/trials/change of setup" the results won't count against your championship points.

Like JMMN and RogerM pointed out, not everyone races to "win" the championship anyway and still turn up because the racing is competitive.
Take away teh competitiveness and you will lose racers.

Despite the club being busy as of late, come Summer numbers reduce considerably so we should be making hay as they say.

The current system is NOT broke!! Ok it could do with a Tweak, but we don't have to completely change the format to suit only 10%/20% of racers.

I agree that this poll is a great idea, but we must offer the opportunity to vote on a race night when most people are in attendance

I vote NO :p

[Gunter]

Roger don’t worry ill still race both cars every week, TBH if anything id only run my TC every other week during the summer but still do the stox every week so you’ll still have me there and many others im sure. (just to clarify every week with have both classes running incase that’s been mis-understood by any1)

This as Shane said is only an idea because a few people have said to me and him, it’s to many weeks and they don’t contend in the champs and would like to.(or words to that effect)

Also allows cheaper weeks as baldy said using older tyres (in my case outdoor tyres on my TC to save me buying so many carpet ones)

At the end the day this was only put on hear to see the views of people and I personally thought it made sense it didn’t hinder any1, make it fair on the people that can’t come as often as others and I didn’t really see the downside. It would allow people who currently would like to run 2 classes but don’t due to it being busy have a go at running another class. And the comment bout it would only benefit the people running two classes….. I can’t see its going to make much difference if someone dose 1 class or 2 classes in a night they still same driver and that’s the main part. If things start braking then that’s maybe where it gets hard for people doing two classes.

Can I just ask how is this format going to affect the competitiveness of the racing? Surely it’s going to improve it as there will be no longer times when non champ cars are in your race and cost you time/points.

If everyone don’t like it and just wants less counting rounds then I guess that will be what happens but I cant see how it suites the 10/20% of members it suites all those that cant make enough weeks to norm contend in the champs which is the majority as only about 6/7 people norm get enough rounds to compete.

And im sure this will also be held on the night with a voting box or whatever but on hear comments such as above can also be expressed.

[Markygia]

Hi Everyone

I agree with some many of everyones comments. I liked the idea of greater differnece in points between win, 2nd 3rd 4th etc etc. and I liked the idea of extra point - although as someone mentioned its prob not fair but would add an extra little dimension.
I would also suggest maybe a bonus point for fastest lap - just because I want them to implement this in F1 :)

My personal preference is edging in favour of the new proposal as I have two cars. I tried racing both but it serioulsy handicaps both classes. and when you race, marshall, race, marshall and then have to try find time to fix your car or change something it gets too stressful to bother doing it. So i stopped after a while. then didnt get enough rounds in for the GT12 champs.

would be nice to concentrate on one car a week - would still race both but i would only need to worry about changing one car. This would free up a bit more time and be less stressful so would be worth it. therefore I would race GT12 as well as TC whereas previously I had decided to quit GT12. I think the racing would still be competitive, it would still be timed and people would still want to win.
I would think (or though may be wrong) the only people who would miss any races would be people who race two cars and need to miss the odd race.

that practice night was good and we didnt even have lap timing or arranged races - so maybe this is what prompted the proposed changes - people said to me too it was good to try stuff out. It would be even better if the night still had organisation to it.

Would give everyone a chance to race any car they liked too - and would give people who race non-championship classes a chance to race against people of thier own ability rather than dumping them in their own 'mixed' class.

One point I do agree with is excluding non-championship class cars in amoungst a championship class on a championship night.

The last thing you want is your race ruined by someone who aint even officially 'competing' against you.

I'm not blaming anyone racing another class as when you have cars of the wrong class in your race they have different areas where they are faster/slower so again more likely to collide and ruin one-anothers race. Just as likely to happen other way aroud as well - but usually you find someone competing in a championship should be being more cautious as they dont want to lose points. whereas someone turning up adhoc will be more gung ho.

Also, other classes of car dont have restrictions so their cars will likely be faster - but this isnt necessarily matched with the drivers ability - so you have a mixed ability which also doesnt help.

I suppose this is an argument for the new proposed rules as the mixed classes can be run on non-champ nights without it mattering quite AS much.

you wont get any Lovell strops :) hah ;)

[RogerM]

Roger don’t worry ill still race both cars every week, TBH if anything id only run my TC every other week during the summer but still do the stox every week so you’ll still have me there and many others im sure. (just to clarify every week with have both classes running incase that’s been mis-understood by any1).

Good to hear ... would need to find a better way of seeding drivers though as I can see problems there also.

Who would get a top heat spot, somebody who was running 2 seconds a lap slower than you but doing well in the championship due to scoring every possible time or somebody on your pace who has not scored well due to the championship weeks not being possible race evenings for them?

If you give the faster driver the top heat place the championship contender would no doubt be upset (I can understand that).
If you give the championship contender the place the faster driver will most likely cause chaos in the heat below as he tries to avoid the others meaning neither they or anybody else in that heat, including the other championship regulars, have a good nights racing either (I can understand that too)

It's a tough call either way!!

[Gunter]

Yep I totally agree, the seeding is abit dodgy im not 100% on the best way.

Currently it’s done by each driver having an ability put aside there driver profile which is done using the previous years AVG points (I THINK). So for instance sum1 who turns up once and wins both quail and final will get an ability of 50 (we do it out of 50 because of the number of drivers which I guess will need to change with the larger numbers.)as there AVG is 30 out of 30. So my AVG in TC I think is 28.57 I think OJ got higher and Mark will have higher as he done better in TC than me last year. So my ability is 48.

Each driver has a different profile for each different class so my GT12 was started this week as it was my 1st time so I should of really started dead last….. but my ability from my TC was used to put me in a more appropriate place (3rd I think I started)

With the number of new / different drivers turning up all the time its hard for race control to sort every1 so there may be a few weeks for people to find there feet see where they end up and then adjust there ability accordingly.

I personally think it would be carnage putting the faster drivers in the bottom heat and wouldn’t be nice for anyone but then I have invested interest in that so its up to the majority I guess. I think the seeding should be on people’s current years AVG points score rather than the previous years or only use the previous years for the first few weeks (or when someone turns up who not been there for the starting weeks of the champs) and then you will always be racing with the people of your ability.

For example, If I missed the 1st 4 weeks I could still do enough rounds to win so it would be unfair to make me start last because others have had a head start? That’s penalising the people who cant make many rounds such as yourself, you’d have to always start last as you don’t make many weeks.

Hopefully that’s how it currently works that’s how im aware it works but baldy might be able to shead some more light on it

[cryer-evo]

Just leave it as it is :p

[grayslick]

I think it is too prescriptive to say week 1 = touring car and week 2 = supastox. It is not particularly flexible if you've got other commitments.

I think we should aim for-

- significantly reducing the number of points scoring rounds that count
- adding extra points for fastest qualifying laps
- slightly staggering the points system to reward first/second/third place, this will help with the final points tally i.e you wont just get someone who turns up every week near the top of the championship

I am against having uncompetitive weeks. By having competitive racing every week you will ensure everyone is striving to improve their position in the championship whenever they turn up which seems fair to me.

[Markygia]

Grayslick talks some sense. I agree with all of that.

[Gunter]

Extra points for fastest qualifying laps as in who gets FTD gets a extra point which is done in alot of RC racing or for literally the fastest single lap?

Not sure it should be done for the fastest single lap as this sort of promotes doing 1 silly lap risking others cars and going abit wild. FTD I'd agree with tho

[grayslick]

Yes, FTD would be better although like Markygia, I like the idea of a fastest lap from the heats being awarded too but appreciate this might cause other problems in the heats with drivers slowing up to find free space to nail a lap.

FTD point(s) would just create that extra points allocation that could make all the difference if the number of rounds that count are reduced. Otherwise we could end up with several drivers on the same number of points at the end of the summer.

[Gunter]

Yep can totally agree with that, but I think the least we cut it down to is 28 scores counting so another 8 results or 4 weeks so 10 weeks in total can be lost but yea I like the sound of FTD extra point :-)

If there was even point count back would always decide of course

[grayslick]

Yep can totally agree with that, but I think the least we cut it down to is 28 scores counting so another 8 results or 4 weeks so 10 weeks in total can be lost but yea I like the sound of FTD extra point :-)

If there was even point count back would always decide of course


That sounds about right to me. What does everyone else think?

Just took a quick look at the results for last summers Mardave/Mini Championship and there are about 12 or so drivers that attended (or nearly attended) enough weeks to record 28 scores/14 weeks.

[~lee~]

It makes absolutely no difference to me wether I am getting points or not as I am not going to get anywhere in the championships anyway.

As long as I can race everyweek, I`m happy! :)

That was quite a pointless post really, reading it back! :lol:

[Markygia]

Starting position in qualifying is determined by your average score from qualifying from the previous year/championship. You are scored up to 30 points for 1st, 29 for 2nd and so on. It is an AVERAGE of all your qualifying results (not your finals). So for example, if you turned up once in 2012 and TQ'd you would start all of this season on pole.

However, Steve is the adjudicator so this is flexible. therefore, if no one has any previous scores, or their qualifying score was not representative of thier performance, Steve will manually adjust this - you just need to a) ask him and b) proove it. If its a close call, he will give it in favour of the person who has the more results.

So if your asking to move up you'll need to quite convincingly beat the people starting directly ahead of you. you cant expect Steve to just move you up on your say-so.

but this system works and is fair. Ive not known anyone get upset from this - so if anyone is I suggest they speak to Steve as its so easily resolved. If someone is in the wrong heat he will move them forward - just takes a little common sense which our Steve has in abundance. (he went to Marling)

I dont think this needs to change as it aint broke. and the way it is at the mo is very easy for people like Steve to create the heats (which he does for a mere £100 a night - joke!)

[J'MM'N]

Any updates on this, I know the questionnaire went out at club a few weeks ago.

Another thought on this would be to run to championships through the Summer and to be run on alternative weeks. Touring car and Supastox championships A one week, then T/C and S/S championships B on alternate weeks.

This would give competitive racing every week and for those that can only do certain nights, it will give them the chance to race alternative weeks but still compete for a championship. Downfalls would be that it means two championships that run concurrent, which may confuse some people :lol: And that it could make championship A or B more competitive as drivers concentrate on each class on alternative weeks.

Personally though I'm not really looking at championships and just want competitive fun racing every week:)

[RCMadShane]

Hi all

Well the votes are in and out of the 25 Votes we have a majority who want the new system

Voting was 14 (56%) for yes, 8 (32%) for no and 3(12%) for try something different.

So I am pleased to say the new system will be adopted for the start of the next season.

Thanks for Voting.

[grayslick]

what a stupid system, now I can spend half my time at GERCC "practising", total madness :thumbdown:

[Baldy Senior]

Right - let's see if this works!!
I have read through this thread and feel I need to clarify some things and put my view forward, which hopefully is unbiased, as I don't race.

Qualifying score
Some of you have got the right idea of how this is calculated but here it is simplified.
Each week there is a total of 60 points up for grabs (30 for qualifying & 30 for final). 30 points for 1st, 29 for 2nd etc. These are added up each week and the total is divided by the number of weeks ie your average score or qualifying score. The number 30 was picked purely because it was decided that there would never be more than 30 drivers in any one week who would be racing the same class of car. This method of calculating the qualifying score has proved very accurate. This can be shown during any evenings racing by how little the heats change from qualifying to finals. It also is not affected by how often you race except if you only race very very occasionally and only then if your results for that night are not your normal standard.

Championship
The points for the championship are made up from qualifying and finals. I decided that it was unfair to only get points from one race ie the final. There were racers who did really well in qualifying and then messed up in the final and therefore had nothing to show for the evening. Each championship season is approximately 26 weeks. We appreciate that people have holidays etc and (as some of you have realised) we didn't want the championship to be decided by whoever came the most hence we allow for a number of absent weeks - normally about 5. Therefore we say the maximum amount of weeks which can be attributed to your final count is 21. The only advantage now of racing every week is if you have a bad weeks racing because we only use the best 21 weeks out of 26.

Summer championship rules
The new rules will not affect anyone's qualifying position. It just means the scores will be lower because there will be less scoring weeks.
Personally, I can't see any advantage in the new system which reducing the number of qualifying weeks wouldn't solve - say 'the best 15 out of 26'. This way you are not held to certain weeks as qualifying weeks. Say for example you do shift work - it could be feasible that you will be working every qualifying week and therefore get no championship points at all. Doing it my way you can decide for yourself which weeks qualify.

This is just my view - I will do whatever you all decide.

[Baldy Senior]

Had a problem finishing the missive above so thought I would send it before I lost it and continue here.
Mark is correct re how I can manually input qualifying positions.
When someone first starts racing I have to 'guess' a score based on their own view. If this score is proven to be wrong I can adjust it so that drivers are racing against other drivers of a similar ability - obviously if all else fails, £100 will always improve your qualifying score. I think I'm joking but don't tempt me!!

[RogerM]

Have to see how this works out but my first reaction is that I believe it will reduce the number of drivers from the fast end of the field showing up to race on non championship nights thus making the whole thing less fun.
Really enjoying GT12 even if I am still struggling a little with getting my head around setting up a car on sauced foam tires but if I'm right it will be in the classifieds soon & I'll be back to 100 mile round trip for club racing again :-(

See you tonight if my tires show up in time

[grayslick]

Right - let's see if this works!!

Summer championship rules
The new rules will not affect anyone's qualifying position. It just means the scores will be lower because there will be less scoring weeks.
Personally, I can't see any advantage in the new system which reducing the number of qualifying weeks wouldn't solve - say 'the best 15 out of 26'. This way you are not held to certain weeks as qualifying weeks. Say for example you do shift work - it could be feasible that you will be working every qualifying week and therefore get no championship points at all. Doing it my way you can decide for yourself which weeks qualify.

This is just my view - I will do whatever you all decide.

My thoughts exactly, it wasnt broke was it?

We should have just reduced the number of qualifying championship weeks to 12-15 thus keeping the flexibility for attendance and maintaining competitive racing week to week.

The new system will reduce club revenue too. Personally I wont bother coming to non championship weeks whereas currently I come along whenever I can (approx 40 weeks a year) because I know there will always be competitive fun racing.

Sorry chaps, I just dont get it

[Simion Wabs]

As I have stated at the start of this thread. It aint broke so why change it. As Steve and Grayslick have eluded to, reducing the number of weeks that are counted towards the championship would have the same net result.

This wholesale change of the current system only satisfies those that plan on racing two cars in different championships.

Like Martin, I may also consider only racing alternate weeks, reducing active numbers, making the racing less fun.

The club has people travelling from far afield to race competitively at Glos, will these people bother week in week out? I very much doubt it.

So when the club numbers drop again as they do year in year out during the summer months, we will see how profitable the clubs becomes then.

A backward step satisfying the few "who bothered to vote".

[fatpricey]

I am quite new to this and have stayed out of the thread but having seen the "result" I had to comment.

Picture the scene - its a lovely evening, the sun is up and the Wife is pestering you to drag the BBQ out of the shed. Having said that its Friday night and that means race night at Glos .... on hang on, it's only practice for my class tonight so why bother. Lets stay at home and earn some browny points for putting the family before the club.

It does seem short sighted in my opinion to make it so that the incentive to turn up each week is deminished. A far more sensible approach would have been to reduce the amount of point scoring weeks so that if people did have a poor week when setting up the car it would not impact their standing. Having an average is also a good idea as long a minimum number of rounds have been reached.

The club will surely lose revenue if the reason to turn up each week for those of us who do not have the money to run more than one class. If people are so keen to run set ups on the live track is not possible to arrange a seperate practice night during the week? I am sure this might be possible if the venue is not already booked up and people are willing to stump up to cover the cost.

With the Gloucester Quays event on the horizon we have the potential for even more people joining so what is next, a once a month competitive week per class with a deli style ticket system!

Not everyone goes on Oople and whilst I understand that voting slips were available at the club it was a bit covert and as such not everyone will have been aware. The people who are engaged will have voted but as many of them are normally the ones who are proposing the idea with a voting pool so low it may have distorted the vote.

Shame to have gone down this route especially as so many people have stating that it was not broken in the first place.

[grayslick]

Ok, so just looking my diary for the coming months. I know I'm not going to be able to make at least 3 of the scheduled GT12 rounds. So that means I already know I cannot score the maximum qualifying rounds :thumbdown:

[RCMadShane]

I am baffled by the moaning here… :(

A complaint had been made about the way the championship was run…

A solution was created by the committee to be passed to the club

YOU the drivers were asked to vote..

YOU the drivers voted it in.

I think it is probably a good idea to let this run for the summer season and see how it goes and we can re-evaluate the system if it looks like its failing..
Nothing in the RC world is for ever

[grayslick]

I am baffled by the moaning here… :(

A complaint had been made about the way the championship was run…

A solution was created by the committee to be passed to the club

YOU the drivers were asked to vote..

YOU the drivers voted it in.

I think it is probably a good idea to let this run for the summer season and see how it goes and we can re-evaluate the system if it looks like its failing..
Nothing in the RC world is for ever

I didnt see any voting slips, when were these made available? seems at least 2 others are in the same boat, so 8 peope said no + 3 others that didnt know about the voting slips + 3 others that didnt like the idea anyway = 14 yes 14 no

[Markygia]

crikey - i voted for the change, but seeing the objections people have means they feel a lot more strongly about this than I do. Maybe this is the same for others as well.

I voted for it as the championships or championship points arent my priority. I just want to win whatever :). And I liked the idea of groups of us all concentrating on the same class at the same time.
But basically id still turn up the same amount so whichever decision wouldnt affect me hugely.

But guess if other people dont feel the same it aint good. I dont think we want to be putting people off coming - thats for certain.

Dont really know how we could go forward now???

[Markygia]

guys- would also say be careful how you/we comment about new rules - Shane has tried to do things fairly so try not to blame but explain.

If people didnt know about voting then its defo a valid point.

Cheers

[Gunter]

It’s all well and good waiting till now
The voting slips were at race control for any1 one to vote for more than 1 week and I think Shane took them around so if people didn’t vote whose fault is that?

The main advantage of the new system was that there would never be mixed cars in races where there were champ point up for grabs…. But seeing as the new club no longer allows mixed classes in heats then that advantage as now gone.
Another one is yes people doing 2 classes it makes life easier……but id still do 2 class’s neways because I ENJOY JUST RACING.
Less counting weeks so it’s not just an attendance race…. That can also be fixed due to having less counting week …. Granted.
People could spend less racing ……not have to run good tyres every week for instance people could use a harder compound on practice nights which will last longer and save money???

But at the end the day I go racing because I enjoy racing my toy cars, if there a champ or not I don’t care, I enjoy racing round with friends having a social night and hopefully doing well.
If people ONLY come to collect points for the champs and this system is going to kill of the club (as that is what you are trying to say and use that as leverage) then how come so many people turned up in the snow for just a free for all???
Im quite sure the vast majority come to the club because they love racing RC cars and get a buzz out of it and that (inless people only are points collecting) isn’t going to be effected by these rules. Same people will be there same racing will take place nothing on the surface of the night will change only the background champ tables. So I really can’t see how that is suddenly going to kill the club like you are saying.

[fatpricey]

guys- would also say be careful how you/we comment about new rules - Shane has tried to do things fairly so try not to blame but explain.

If people didnt know about voting then its defo a valid point.

Cheers

My response was absolutely not having a dig at anyone on the committee and especially not at Shane - I never shoot the messenger. Running any kind of club is hard work and will no matter what your intensions and with the best will in the world you will never please all of the people all of the time.

As said in a previous post this is running over the summer season and see how it goes.

[Markygia]

Sound - let's all stay cool and happy. My post was really aimed more at possible future comments rather than previous- I was being presumptuous. I don't think anyone has been offensive but can see people gettin more and more emotive.

[RogerM]

So long as people DO CONTINUE to turn up when they can and thus the heats can be seeded correctly around driver ability and not just a split on numbers (which hurts everybody at the end of the day) then all good.

My concern is that some, if not many, people will act as per fatpricey's example. I for one know that if I believe that it's going to be a poorly attended week I'll either go and see my mates at the pub or drive the 100 mile round trip to go to a buggy club.

I couldn't give a hoot about the championship, I'm unlikely to ever feature due to limitations on the weeks I can attend but I DO care about having some fun racing with people of similar ability / pace when I do go and if that suffers ......

[Simion Wabs]

I am baffled by the moaning here… :(

A complaint had been made about the way the championship was run…



So A complaint has led to a complete review of the current system?

The number of drivers who turned up week in week out and never complained were basically not considered then. By virtue of turning up they were saying "hey this racing is great, I like the current system, please keep it this way, don't change it, it works and is very enjoyable". But these people were discredited because they never stated they were very happy with the current system.

Not having a dig a Shane or the commitee, they are doing thier best, but come on, we can resolve this issue by reducing the number of counting chamionship heats required to "compete" in the championships.

All posters have made valid points (pro's and cons), but the overriding thing for me was that it wasn't broke in the first place!

Cheers

[Markygia]

I think a suggestion was made to alter the current format. So then the committee sought further info to see If this was a popular opinion. This was the vote.
It's probably a bit strong to say the others who were happy where overlooked as the vote was asking for their opinions. I can see there bring a sub issue if people didn't know about the vote. As then it would seem they've been overlooked. But I don't think that was anyone's intentions?!

A complaint or a suggestion (as long as reasonable) should bear grounds for the committee to look into it. Shows the committee will listen to its people.
But maybe a bigger vote is needed. Like maybe a talk before racing this evening? Followed by a show of hands? Again can't guarantee that'll everyone will be present but it should still give a percentage of votes. People who don't show could likely vote either way after all. So it's not favouritising either decision. Unless someone can think of another way that's gets to more people?

[Markygia]

Apologies for all the spelling and typo errors in that last post
Lol
I sometimes forget how to speak propa England. :-)

[Baldy1986]

As far as I can see here, it looks like a decision has been made, and there are people unhappy with it as they were unable to or did not vote.

So basically do we need to just get votes from the people that have not voted yet and add them to the total? In which case, we can bring some more forms and get them sorted. Or are people going to be silly and duplicate votes, etc?

If people have voted and are unhappy with the outcome, is that not just an accepted negative side to the voting process, and nothing really much that can be done about it? In the nicest way possible?

[J'MM'N]

Firstly let me say I'm not interested personally in the championship, I just want competitive racing with likewise cars and 50% of the Summer season that ain't going to happen. Wasn't it pointed out that on non championship weeks that it would have a mix of the rest. I know its difficult for the club and we do want to involve these drivers, but it will mean any Buggys, Pro 10, 12th, Micro and SC trucks that turn up, will be racing amongst your prized TC and GT12's on non competition nights:thumbdown:

Secondly I was given a form by Steve at booking in, ticked the box and handed it straight back, but only because I was in the know from this thread. Looking at the numbers that filled the forms in, then either a large percentage didn't bother or just didn't know/understand. I know this poll isn't on the same level, but if as much time and effort was put across to the members, as had been shown for Lipo sacks, then perhaps members may of known what they were voting for. Meanwhile looking at the votes we could probably put 85% of the names to who and what they voted for.

So for me the thought of uncompetitive racing which could involve other classes of car on a fortnightly basis doesn't interest me and been the Summer months will probably affect me wanting to turn up just on alternate championship weeks.

Just hope it doesn't affect the dwindling numbers over the Summer season.

[Gunter]

So currently having all the other classes of car racing with the TC's WHILE ITS FOR THE CHAMPS is fair?? But having them mixed with gt12 on alternate weeks when it's not for champs is so outrageous?

This method would at least split it up

BUT anyways as I said in my last post Nothing other than TC's and GT12 will run at club inless they have enough cars to make a heat of there own. Which makes this argument redundant.

TBH I'm with mark I don't really care if we do it or not it make no difference to me, I still get to race on a Friday so wot ever happens I still get what I want.....racing!
Now there not any other cars in Anyone's race all is good from my point of view but for people who don't hav gt12 or a TC they will now have a problem with it.....
As mark said can't make everyone happy being on the committee is hard work I'm sure.

[J'MM'N]

As far as I can see here, it looks like a decision has been made, and there are people unhappy with it as they were unable to or did not vote.

So basically do we need to just get votes from the people that have not voted yet and add them to the total? In which case, we can bring some more forms and get them sorted. Or are people going to be silly and duplicate votes, etc?

If people have voted and are unhappy with the outcome, is that not just an accepted negative side to the voting process, and nothing really much that can be done about it? In the nicest way possible?

As my previous post, I think if a bit more information had been put across to the membership then people would of known what they were voting for. I only saw the forms on one race night and apart from what was written on the form, no other info was put forward to the members in way of conversation. And we all know what happens with forms when people don't know or have interest in the facts.

This vote was always going to be a contentious issue and people who voted for no change will think it unfair, while people who voted for change will feel it perfectly fair, so who is right:)

Summer season is nearly upon us, so its too late to rerun the vote. So the club may as well go with the decision and hopefully we'll have a better idea of what the club wants in 6 months time.

[Simion Wabs]

A complaint or a suggestion (as long as reasonable) should bear grounds for the committee to look into it. Shows the committee will listen to its people.

Mark, all your posts are measured and offer a balanced view, credit to you.

A commitee should consider the suggestion(s) between them before offering it to its members. In this instance we have one suggestion (or one complaint) and the commitee see fit to create a voting system for it based on one persons comment/request.

If a number of people had suggested the change/complained then the committee has an obligation to put forward the suggestions/ complaint. But surely not for one complaint??

On the voting form, IIRC we had Yes change/No keep as is/other tick boxes.

What should have been made clear is what other options we had to choose from.
We should have first voted for 1) Is change to current system needed? YES/NO

If Yes, following consultation, the following options have been proposed.
Which option would you like to change to?

1) number of qualifying championship heats reduced best 40 > best from 32 for e.g.
2) alternate weeks for championship between classes
3) different points scoring per final positions/qualifying
4) any of the above, all seem good
Any other comments you would like the committee to consider?

The change was voted in wthout any options being offered to its members

A famous misquote: You can have any colour you want as long as it is black!


Si

[J'MM'N]

So currently having all the other classes of car racing with the TC's WHILE ITS FOR THE CHAMPS is fair?? But having them mixed with gt12 on alternate weeks when it's not for champs is so outrageous?

This method would at least split it up
No one wants mixed races especially in Champs, but does this mean on non competitive nights we could end up with a heat of say six different classes in one race.

BUT anyways as I said in my last post Nothing other than TC's and GT12 will run at club inless they have enough cars to make a heat of there own. Which makes this argument redundant.

So if one member turns up with a non TC or GT12, he wont be able to race that week, or if a 12th and a buggy turn up, then we make a heat just for them:)

[grayslick]

I dont come to GERCC to collect points, I come to enjoy competitive fun racing, the championship is incidental. In my opinion running non championship events regularly is going to reduce the competitive environment and less people will turn up to these weeks, this is already obvious from comments in this thread.

Luckily for me there appears to be a club running GT12s on a Friday night another 20 minutes up the road. :thumbsup:

I dont think you can really do anything as the die is cast now, people who voted to change the system because "the championship doesnt affect me" probably don't think this might have an effect on the number of racers turning up week to week, we'll see I guess. I personally didnt see any voting slips but that's my fault I suppose.

Just a final thought, why would I need to practice or try out different options on my supastox every other week? what am I trying out? different colour springs? or maybe try 32s rather than 35s on the rear?? I genuinely cant think of anything else. The car is dialled out of the box.

[Gunter]

Si,

I personally cant remember how many people complained about it but it was for sure more than one and over a few weeks so that’s why it was listen to and acted on.

All,
Fair point there should of been a do we want these new rules yes , no.

But then it’s easy to say after the event has past but there was a paper attached to the board where the results go up for weeks explaining everything and in them weeks anyone could of asked questions but no1 did.... so then the vote was started to see what’s people thoughts, voting slips were given out at race control when booking in and Shane/Ashley said over the microphone about the voting/ the new rules and to look on the board so what more could they have done? it was up to everyone to have a look so if people didn’t then it’s not the clubs fault. Blame the people who didn’t bother voting if you don’t like the result.

I am the first one to admit when someone gets on the microphone and starts chatting i turn off and don’t really listen but look at what’s happen from everyone not listening to what’s going on during the night. Lesson for everyone.

Also could not many people of voted because they are not really bothered what we do with the points along there is racing??? Because at the end the day innless you worried about points this shouldn't make a difference along people still turn up.(Must say i thought more people raced for the love of racing not just points so I didn’t see this apparent huge problem). If everyone carried on as norm the champ tables would look identical just half the number of points so what’s the massive problem I’m struggling to see it.

If the rules were nothing other than GT12 race week one and alternate what can physically be race week to week I’m sure we would have got a massive response!!!!

J'MM'N,

If I’m honest I don’t no anymore because this format was though of and created to solve a number of problems,
1,to many rounds counting so is an attendance race
2,Non champ counting cars in races effecting the results
3,Money- was though it might save people money as they could use harder foams/slicks on non-champ nights to lower costs slightly.

so this was something that was created to solve these above problems. If anyone new that’s i don’t no it wasn’t just one person with one problem that we were trying to fix.

So to answer your question I’m not sure anymore because I thought this method was a way of allowing the few 'random' class cars to still be able to race, but not get in the way of people fighting for points. So since last week’s announcement of 'innless there 4 cars of one class / a class they can suitably go together in otherwise you can’t race', I’m not sure what’s happening. Which is why earlier I said I’m not sure the new rules are going to help because one of the problems has been solved and just lowering the counting number of weeks fixes another one of the problems the new format was meant to solve/help with.

The situation has changed since last week’s announcement so what needs to be done has possibly changed.

[grayslick]

Gunter - We all love racing, I dont care about points, but I care about competitive racing, the new rules mean that unless you've got both a TC and a SS then every other week you are not racing, you are just practicing.

[Gunter]

grayslick and everyone for that matter,
Everyone dose still realise that the nights racing will still be exactly the same format against each other and the clock in 5 min race heats n everything not just free practice yeaaa?
Cos if i thought that was going to happen I wouldn’t be to impressed either and understand all your worries.

[Simion Wabs]

Hi Gunter,
appreciate the time taken to respond to all of the above

point 2 above states that with current system, non championship car race with car racing for championship points

I propose a simple common sense approach to this

Instead of a "pan car" racing in either TC or GT12 A final, drop them down into a lower final group. So in effect if they achieve 30 laps and Best in B final achieves 28 laps, the pan car should win hands down, not effecting the overall finishing position in that racing category. I fully understand that none championship cars can and have effected championship drivers races/points. Dropping them down a final is common sense to me.
Last week I was leading the B final and had an incident with a none chamionship car. But seriosuly so what! I was in the B final! This would go down as a bad week on the race calender.

Common sense should be the victor and is probably the easiest solution to this issue.

Don't let the none championship car race in A finals. Sorted
:thumbsup:

[grayslick]

grayslick and everyone for that matter,
Everyone dose still realise that the nights racing will still be exactly the same format against each other and the clock in 5 min race heats n everything not just free practice yeaaa?
Cos if i thought that was going to happen I wouldn’t be to impressed either and understand all your worries.

See that is the very thing that is baffling me why bother calling it a "non championship week" then?

[Gunter]

Yea i see what your saying put them in a race where they should be miles fastest ie, not impacting so much on the race....

But are the people in the B final going to be happy with a non-champ car effecting there race? If you were a regular in the B and having a close race with someone else in there you always race in the B having a close race and the pan car takes one of you out and spoils it......

no different weather its in the A, B, C final you normally race the same sort of prople and they become your compitition so you want to beat them whatever the final its in.

You see what i mean??? there a can of worms with every solution

[Gunter]

lol! ok if that is the case, why bother calling it a "non championship week"?


Because as i said in my massive post a min ago this format was though of when we were still going to allow other classes of cars to race (so not to send anyone away) and so the pan cars or whatever would go into the class that wasnt racing for points on that week so one week they go with TC and next week they go in with GT12.

But the goal posts have moved since last weeks annoucement soo im not sure what is going on/ if it solves anything

[J'MM'N]

Last week I was leading the B final and had an incident with a none chamionship car. But seriosuly so what! I was in the B final! This would go down as a bad week on the race calender.

Similar event happened the week before, a 1/10th Pan car that was racing with the TC's all night, but come finals was put into the GT12 B final. It probably ruined most peoples final, although I don't blame the driver of the pan car as it needs a totally different driving style.

[Baldy Senior]

Just a quick clarification before I have to leave for racing and resume this discussion face to face.
The new race format will not allow mixed cars in any heat - whether it is a championship scoring week or not. We have had too many complaints / damage to allow this any more. The only exception to this will be with the agreement of everyone else who will be in that heat. There are only a few drivers who regularly race 1 off cars (there's a pan car and an 1/18 which immediately come to mind) and these have been told. We will still however allow any car to race (again within reason) as long as there are a minimum of 4 ie they can have a heat of their own.

[J'MM'N]

Ok another twist on the Summer championship, I think a lot of people are against having week on week off competitive racing for there particular class, so how would this idea work.

At the moment the championship is run over approximately 26 weeks of which peoples best 18 weeks count towards the championship. Some people are against this because they feel it is more an attendance championship and not been able to attend every week. Meanwhile others prefer to keep it how it is, as it brings competitive racing every week.

So my thoughts turn back to the idea of two championships to be run over the Summer months, the normal championship and a mini championship. The championship as it is, is run over 6 months approximately 26 weeks, so what if we were to split this into the first Friday of each month (best 4 of 6 rounds to count) been the mini championship and the other weeks (best 12 of 20 rounds to count) been the normal championship. I have only suggested the first Friday of each month for the mini championship as it easier to remember.

To further extend on this and using Mark's suggestion of non additive weeks, we could make the mini championship a non additive week, putting everybody on par for those six weeks and allowing the carpet to come up for air. Also it would give the opportunity for those that cant attend every week or run both classes to be more selective on what they want to do.

Mini Championship, first Friday of each month and additive free racing, best 4 of 6 rounds to count.

Normal Championship, all other Friday's of the month racing as we do now, best 12 of 20 rounds to count.

Its only my idea/thoughts, but perhaps something that could be discussed with the members and tweaked to keep everyone happy. So please don't kill the messenger :)

[Markygia]

I like the way you're slightly worried you'll get berated for this lol

Pretty good shout though I reckon. Worth considering surely.