SOUTHPORT REFEREES

[Lindsay]

To all those that I missed on Sunday a big thank you to all that helped me over the weekend in my tempory post as Head Ref.
You may now realise how difficult it can be up on the Rostrum.
Also to all drivers who in general drove with consideration to there fellow competitors.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsu p::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
See you all at Stotfold.

[Chrislong]

The referee'ing was excellent at Southport.

I believe somebody stopped Damo from calling through the lead cars when lapping, I thought that what Damo was doing was excellent and was gob smacked at him being told to stop. But nevermind, no hardship on me as I tend to know far before I am told if I ought to be pulling over - but some don't.

[Northy]

I believe somebody stopped Damo from calling through the lead cars when lapping....

:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

[Doomanic]

I can see two people who need to pay more attention at drivers briefing...:p

[Chrislong]

I can see two people who need to pay more attention at drivers briefing...:p

:eh?: who's that then? cos it ain't me.

Read what I said. I am not saying "Lead cars should be called through" am I? im saying Damo was doing a grand job and was stopped.

[Lee]

Ooooh i can see Chris` signature getting smaller :woot::woot:

[WHITTLER555]

Hello Chris, sorry but you might have got the wrong end of the stick?

What happened in 2WD was that I informed a driver that he had one of the top three in the heat behind him and the next thing there was a coming together on the concrete section before race control between said driver and the lapping/overtaking driver.

The overtaking driver had words with me at the end of the heat commenting that "next time can we have a referee on the rostrum". I obviously answered him in my usual caring, sharing manner.

At the 4WD drivers briefing Lindsay made it clear that whilst the referee has the option to call the quicker drivers through, it is up to the drivers involved to let the faster car go, the referee could not force them out of the way.

I also didn't ref round four because Phil Sleigh took over from Lindsay on heat two and he was happy to carry on so i let him.

All in all an interesting experience, in an ideal world we would have a team of independant referees but I guess that won't happen soon.

I don't think I am ready to take over just yet..........

[Chris Doughty]

I think you did fine, a ref can only be there to inform people car/car interaction is 100% down to the people twiddling the sticks or the wheel

[PaulRotheram]

Would also like to thank the refferees for stepping in too. I wasn't aware before this weekend lead cars cannot be called through like they used to.

(this isnt a rant - more a view)

I'd really like to know why however, as in real 1:1 scale racing cars being lapped are blue flagged and are then to move over and let the car through. I can't imagine it going down well when if it was up to the driver wether they let them through or not.

Driver etiquette is good when it works, but when some one is unaware of what is going on it's hard for the faster drivers to pull their potential.

An example being in 2wd I was on par for 14th in round, when a driver being lapped was not aware of the situation (not their fault) had held me up and an error between us was made as I tried to pass and them not knowing I was the lead car. On 3 occurences similar situations happened on the same day.

For me the faster cars being called through helps avoid situations like above, i'd be interested to find out why this 'ruling' has come in to place, and when the drivers had allowed this to happen.

[Stu]

Paul - you may have hold of the same end of the stick that Chris L had.

There has been no change, there is no rule, never was, no nothing.

It was simply clarified that the rostrum referee is not obliged to call the leaders through (he is not obliged to even be there), but he can do so if he wishes and if he feels it helps.

[PaulRotheram]

Agreed stu, i realise there is no solid rule to this, but I do notice the higher heats are always made 'aware' of the faster cars coming through - why them and not the lower heats? they're of the same importance.

The way i see it is its the same for everyone, they either have the same treatment or no guidence at all. and im sure more agree also.

[Chrislong]

Fair enough, got it.

The referee's do a good job, all of them whether full time or volunteer, Damo included. Its a thankless task where only the complaints get voiced which is a shame, we really should show our praise and hopefully our appreciation will bring back more regular call through's and such/or perhaps not, but we do need refs whether or not to stop any blatant bad driving, corner cutting etc etc.

[PaulRotheram]

Fair enough, got it.

The referee's do a good job, all of them whether full time or volunteer, Damo included. Its a thankless task where only the complaints get voiced which is a shame, we really should show our praise and hopefully our appreciation will bring back more regular call through's and such/or perhaps not, but we do need refs whether or not to stop any blatant bad driving, corner cutting etc etc.

just to quote this.. im not actually bad mouthing the reffereeing, the guys who do it do a great job, lindsay skelding showed me how hard a job he has on a few occasions. I told him my self it's a job i'd find difficult to do.

[Chrislong]

Don't worry Paul, I wasn't implying that, sorry if it looked like I was. :)

[DanW]

Just to add to this discussion....

Being in a commentated heat seems to be an advantage, as long you don't find it off putting and get "murray walkered".

The commentator is constantly making the public and hence the rest of the field aware of the position of the leaders. I think the back markers are much more aware when the commentator is on becuase there is the fear of public humilation on the tanoy if they accidently hold up or take out a faster guy.

[MATTY]

""but I do notice the higher heats are always made 'aware' of the faster cars coming through - why them and not the lower heats? they're of the same importance.""

Im with you 100% paul

[Jamie B4]

So am I, how are we to potentially catch the quicker guys if we are held up or taken out, we all know the importance of that extra second in nationals. Think if slower cars are not made aware that they will start being issued warnings for accidental hold ups or take outs. Think there should be a rule thst the top 2 or 3 are called through as this usually helps all involved.

[Chris Doughty]

making rules for this kind of thing is a big black hold or massive can-o-worms

might just be better to only have refs to monitor take-outs? balls to the faster car thing

[PaulRotheram]

making rules for this kind of thing is a big black hold or massive can-o-worms

might just be better to only have refs to monitor take-outs? balls to the faster car thing

Sorry chris but ive got to disagree - It's easy for you to say balls to it because in your heats the guys have the know how of what's going on. I'm an F2 and still find my self with people who need the extra help of a refferee to say a quicker car is coming around - I see it often in other heats i watch also.

But like you say the other solution is to completely scrap the guidence of faster cars - even for the big boys.

[Northy]

People knowing a body shell also helps. Over the winter I ran a BJ4 and borrowed one of Rich Lowes old shells. I have never ever ever ever had people jump out of my way at regionals so fast! :o

People in your heat know your coming Chris! :D

G

[Chris Doughty]

you might have miss-read my post or it might not have been clear.

my comment "balls to the faster car thing" was in relation to a suggestion to not offer help to any car in getting through traffic accross the board and that the ref is only there to police take-outs and bad driving

[WHITTLER555]

Hello, from my point of view i refereed as I would like my race to be refereed, I tried to keep an eye on the top three cars and who they were catching and I called out the race order a couple of times during the race.

At Southport it just so happened that I raced, then marshalled and then ref'd 4 heats which I suppose as I am an F2 the heats following are going to be F1 heats so they got the benefit or not as in the case of Mr Mgee (sorry about round one Danny!)

Other Refs on the day had different styles, I can only comment on Mike Riley who ref'd my heat, he spoke to all the drivers at the start and told them to move over for the quicker drivers, he also encouraged us during the race to go faster!

I guess everyone has their own style, I took example from races where Stuart Whyman has been reffing and Paul Draper from a few years back.

Maybe there should be a standard practice adopted by all refs for all heats so you know you are getting consistency accross the board. But then who will ref the refs?

Discuss.....

[Northy]

Nice post Damo :D

G

(your little side kick)

[andy05]

""but I do notice the higher heats are always made 'aware' of the faster cars coming through - why them and not the lower heats? they're of the same importance.""

Im with you 100% paul
If anything the lower heats need more help i would say:blush:

[WHITTLER555]

Yes I must add that during the finals I had a spotter watching the back of the pack as well!

G and J:thumbsup:

[bigred5765]

Agreed on the refing thing good idea to have them shout the faster cars through,
it would be nice to have spotters go high go high.lol
may be marshals should have blue flags,?

[niggs98]

People knowing a body shell also helps. Over the winter I ran a BJ4 and borrowed one of Rich Lowes old shells. I have never ever ever ever had people jump out of my way at regionals so fast! :o

People in your heat know your coming Chris! :D

G


very true G a lot of the top boys use large bright block colours to make the shell more recognisable to people as they hurtle up behind them at speed. as an example truemans shell is easily recognisable to anyone at various points on the track so you know when he is catching you or if you are catching him :woot: makes it a lot easier for the driver to see the car way before it getas there and often saves the ref a job of having to call out

[David Church]

Perhaps I could help a bit more. As I now seem to be commentating at most of the meetings, and usually the lower heats, I could try and call guys through a bit, and I could call the leaders position on the track more often, and possibly say the colour of their car, this may help people know where the leader is?????

But I would like to say, I think this thread is very good, alot of comments, all just opinions or suggestions, no bitchy-ness, but all said to help or better our sport!!!!

Well done guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[andy05]

Perhaps I could help a bit more. As I now seem to be commentating at most of the meetings, and usually the lower heats, I could try and call guys through a bit, and I could call the leaders position on the track more often, and possibly say the colour of their car, this may help people know where the leader is?????

But I would like to say, I think this thread is very good, alot of comments, all just opinions or suggestions, no bitchy-ness, but all said to help or better our sport!!!!

Well done guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
That sounds good:thumbsup: may also stop me getting " murry walkered"(which happens alot:blush:) if i get talked about a bit more

[Northy]

One comment I have, from being up on the rostrum reffing at the weekend is that when people are commentating it's nice to have numbers not just names! :D I've been racing a long time but don't know all the shells! :woot:

G

[David Church]

One comment I have, from being up on the rostrum reffing at the weekend is that when people are commentating it's nice to have numbers not just names! :D I've been racing a long time but don't know all the shells! :woot:

G


Can do, I will try and be more helpful!!!:D

[bigred5765]

One comment I have, from being up on the rostrum reffing at the weekend is that when people are commentating it's nice to have numbers not just names! :D I've been racing a long time but don't know all the shells! :woot:

G
:D well its about time you did:thumbsup:

[Stu]

It would help if the laptop on the rostrum had the current heat drivers list ordered by average lap time, not laps completed - this would stop the order jumping all over as laps are counted up.

Also it would help if the 'next heat up' was displayed sooner - possibly with 60 seconds to go - this would give the rostrum ref chance to look over who was on next and familiarize (is that a proper word) himself with who is where.

[Chrislong]

People in your heat know your coming Chris! :D



:eh?: OMG, what an open invitation for inuendo! Must resist. Must resist.

There is an advantage in using Yellow wheels and having a red and yellow shell. It is recogniseable at a glimpse. Some peoples cars I am fully aware of what they are doing while I am racing, no matter where they are on the track - just due to the colours being bright AND individual. Such as Ben Riley, Matt Benfield, Truman, Pidge. This is very useful.

DCMC, good idea. Im sure you'll agree that anything is worth a try if it is no hardship on you. if it doesn't work, then atleast it has been tried.

I have another question. What went on with the marshalling for leg 2 of the A final on Sunday?

Chris

[PaulRotheram]

I have another question. What went on with the marshalling for leg 2 of the A final on Sunday?

Chris

I think it was to do with the marshalling in leg 2 on the saturday which effected sundays decision.. however i do hope i'm wrong

[MattW]

[QUOTE=Chrislong;145999
I have another question. What went on with the marshalling for leg 2 of the A final on Sunday?

Chris[/QUOTE]

Someone (no idea who) suggested that it would be a better idea for the C finalists to marshall instead of the F/G final. PW put it to the C drivers and they agreed i believe.

[telboy]

Having bright shells isn't always an advantage, especially in the lower heats. I mean, I've got a BRIGHT PINK wing that you can see for miles yet when I've raced I've been taken out whilst leading heats on numerous occasions.
I think the refs letting the slower car know is the best way, but it must be across the whole board, not just the higher heats, or heats where they know the drivers.

[ben]

Someone (no idea who) suggested that it would be a better idea for the C finalists to marshall instead of the F/G final. PW put it to the C drivers and they agreed i believe.

Yep it was the H final drivers which was me. He said he was experimenting this idea because it could be said that the drivers lower down in the H final for example might not have the experience to marshall an A final.

If that makes sense.

[bigred5765]

also 2 the point that there might be kids like conner cocker for example marshalling that are worried of being hit aswell by the cars

[strobe]

The score board at Kiddy was a really good idea and very helpfull for the drivers refs and speccies. I thought the BRCA were going to get 1.

[Danny]

I find it really helpful to hear faster cars coming through over the commentary. It can be difficult sometimes, especially if you dont know the track, to have enough capacity in reserve to figure out if you're racing for position or being lapped.

[Lindsay]

I am sorry if I have opened up a can of worms regarding calling lead cars through.
In my opinion all drivers should have equal opertunaty to pass slower cars ie car 9 as as much right to pass car 10 if he is on a faster pace as the lead car to pass car any other car.You are all qualifing for a Faster time.
In the perfect world we would have a person on the Rostrum only watching the computer and calling the race order at the end of each lap.
In the [good] old days we used to have 4 permanent refs at each National with 3 watching at all times.May be its time for some of the younger end to help out more??

[Mrs oOple]

May be its time for some of the younger end to help out more??

I did offer to help at Southport, but my suggestion was met with blank expressions :eh?:

[Mrs oOple]

The score board at Kiddy was a really good idea and very helpfull for the drivers refs and speccies. I thought the BRCA were going to get 1.

The BRCA borrowed the scoreboard for the first national to see if it would work well at our meetings, and find out what the crowd thought of having one there - that wasn't to say that they would get one for definite. It's a hefty piece of equipment so difficult to store and transport, and it also means more work for the race organisers on what is already a busy weekend for them.

I did find it a great addition to the meeting though, I have a short concentration span so quickly forget who is leading etc.

[Adam Skelding]

I did offer to help at Southport, but my suggestion was met with blank expressions :eh?:

But your a woman.
We all know how long it takes women to make decisions... Which shoes should I wear with this dress... oh my god I need to choose a dress. Do I need a hat?...:p

In all seriousness though the refs have a hard time. We've all probably got used to being 'called through' without it actually being a rule. Over the last couple of years, there has been much less consistentcy in who we have had as referees and therefore we are now noticing the 'little things' that we were accustomed to.

Having done reffing at regionals, I actually found the 'lower heats' easier to ref than higher heats. The guys in the lower heats seemed to appreciate when a faster car was coming up behind them. Maybe it's because the closing speed is much greater and visually more apparent that a car is travelling faster than they are.

IMHO: Damo's reffing was spot on and very much 'Old Skool' reffing, making cars aware of faster cars coming up behind them and thanking them afterwards (if) they had been courtieous.

Other refs have different styles, it's just the luck of the draw who you get.

But as was said at drivers briefing it's upto us as drivers to think about the people around us and be more considerate ourselves.:eh?:

[mark christopher]

ive seen allot of raffing and in my opinion if your going to call the "top three" as faster cars, thats unfair to all. there is no saying that the top 6 in a heat are all lapping the 4 slower cars, your just handingthe top three an advantage over the rest.

ref should moniter driving standards of all cars and not worry about who is where.

as for the comment made about 1:1 cars being waved through with a blue flag, yup they are, BUT any lapping car gets waved through, not a chosen few

[MattADH]

In the [good] old days we used to have 4 permanent refs at each National with 3 watching at all times.May be its time for some of the younger end to help out more??

Bring back Dave Booth and Terry Wright!

They were very hard referees with no quarter given...

[Jamie B4]

Thats the whole point of being seeded in a particular heat - potentially all 10 cars can win the heat and so could be called through at any time. If you are number 10 in heat 1 of round 1 it is hard to get a clean run so if you are also hampered by slower cars and not called through it could take you 4 rounds to be up near the top and by that time everyone else has had a couple of runs and are getting quicker. If you are called through then in round 2 you could start off the grid in position 1 or 2 and get a good time. And we all know how hard it is with round by round qualifying!

[gps3300]

It must be very difficult to ensure the fastest drivers are called through consistently with just one ref - I don't envy their job.

For what it's worth, being a middle of the pack F3 I found it very helpful both when leading or being lapped. As already pointed out, the lower heats need this help more than the faster experienced drivers.

However, I'd rather there was no calling through than inconsistent calling through, that way everyone is in the same boat. At the Nationals a few years back you'd be called past for half a race, but on the next lap a back marker would take the lead car out whilst the ref's attention was diverted to ensuring that 2/3/4th place cars didn't hit each other.

At regionals & club nights drivers shout warnings to each other which is good, but I don't know if this is acceptable at the Nationals with the rostrum being a "quiet area".

Finally the Kidderminster scoreboard was an ace idea. Would also be great if tracks had a second loop at the end of the straight and the AMB software calculated speeds down the straight - bit like the tennis ball radar at Wimbledon :)

[Lindsay]

At regionals & club nights drivers shout warnings to each other which is good, but I don't know if this is acceptable at the Nationals with the rostrum being a "quiet area".

It is acceptable that drivers can speak!! to their follow competitors at Nationals on the Rostrum if they do it in a reasonable manner.

[burgie]

at the drivers briefing on Saturday and Sunday, it was said that the drivers were allowed to "negotiate their position" with the other drivers on the rostrum.

maybe the "quiet area" is meant to detract from the often ususl shouting at Marshalls or the driver that one may deem to have been taken out by?

[WHITTLER555]

ive seen allot of raffing and in my opinion if your going to call the "top three" as faster cars, thats unfair to all. there is no saying that the top 6 in a heat are all lapping the 4 slower cars, your just handingthe top three an advantage over the rest.

ref should moniter driving standards of all cars and not worry about who is where.

as for the comment made about 1:1 cars being waved through with a blue flag, yup they are, BUT any lapping car gets waved through, not a chosen few

Hello Mark, maybe you misunderstood what I meant which means I didn't explain it very well.

During the races I notified drivers of the top three cars off the computer screen whether they were car 1 or 5 or 10. This situation was the most obvious in the first round as the cars set off in numerical order and there were the odd anomolie where car 10 (as in Danny Mcgee) was making swift progress through the field. This was also the most difficult to watch as you were trying to keep track of three cars at very different parts of the track.

Once you get to round two and three the "natural order" seemed to be evident and it was a bit easier to keep an eye on the mid field runners as well, but to be honest I could just about keep track of the top four cars if it was a clean race. This is on top of watching for corner cuts and blatant takeouts.

There were two refs for each race, one on the rostrum, one on the ground so to speak. I feel the ref on the rostrum is doing a good notifying drivers of thethe faster cars whilst watching for corner cutting and takeouts and the trackside ref is solely watching for corner cutting and take outs.

[strobe]

Could we have the ref's on the rostrum positioned in the middle. Sometimes struggle to hear the ref calling out faster cars when he is stood the other end of the rostrum.

[Cockerill]

Normally people like to stand in the middle, so that's not really possible

[Mr Spock]

ive seen allot of raffing

I have also seen this.

[super__dan]

My 2 pence, the reffing on the weekend was excellent and I was lucky enough to be in a heat reffed by Damo. Unfortunately becasue of my lack of pace at times and the long gap between set off I was lapped by a couple of cars (likely on for TQ). I MUCH preferred knowing the car coming behind is lapping me and I know to get out the way, perhaps I have too many manners? ;)

[mark christopher]

My 2 pence, the reffing on the weekend was excellent and I was lucky enough to be in a heat reffed by Damo. Unfortunately becasue of my lack of pace at times and the long gap between set off I was lapped by a couple of cars (likely on for TQ). I MUCH preferred knowing the car coming behind is lapping me and I know to get out the way, perhaps I have too many manners? ;)
in ic qual we have a rule to let faster cars through, not in finals unless thier lapping tho, too much to learn in buggies lol