If/when Li-Pos become legal

[Scouser]

Next season, hopefully, Li-Pos will be legal to use at regional and national events. I was wondering though whether people think the minimum weight of the buggys will be reduced so as to allow cars to run without the need for extra ballast, or will the weight limit remain the same meaning that racers have to use lead etc to be race legal?

[Chrislong]

This has already been discussed in another thread.

The weight limit is global, and should remain global.

If all bodies lower, then so-be-it (although it'd be unfair on Nimh racers who are well over the current limit), but id certainly be against the BRCA lowering it if they were breaking away from the global limit.

[mobile chicane]

I'm (I@m) a lipo convert and I reckon the weight limits should stay as they are so those who run cells can contilue to do so

[c0sie]

I think its worth pointing out that it will only become BRCA 'legal' for next year if WE the 10th offroad racer goes to the AGM and vote it in.

The more people that actually go and vote, the more chance we have of getting it in :)

If it gets proposed ill gladly come along to the AGM to vote for it.

[bigred5765]

O it going to get proposed. and so far me, chris cocker, mr long are going anyone else that wants a lift on the way let me know, first come first served

[danDanEFC]

when and were is the agm?

[modelimages]

I think its worth pointing out that it will only become BRCA 'legal' for next year if WE the 10th offroad racer goes to the AGM and vote it in.

The more people that actually go and vote, the more chance we have of getting it in :)

If it gets proposed ill gladly come along to the AGM to vote for it.
without wishing to get into a debate about the pro's and con's of lipo cells i think it does need pointing out that just because you vote for something at an AGM doesn't mean it will happen, as an example proposals to use a limited number of tyres at an event could be passed, it is then up to the off road committee to try and sort out how, it has been discussed on here before that it would be almost impossible to police and scrutineer, so it probably wouldn't happen.
similarly lipo's, vote whatever you want, but it doesn't mean it will happen.

[Northy]

I think its worth pointing out that it will only become BRCA 'legal' for next year if WE the 10th offroad racer goes to the AGM and vote it in.

I think there are other things to take into consideration too.......

EDIT, Damn, John beat me too it! :)

G

[RcRob]

I thought the BRCA was run by us the racers? Therefore if we vote in a rule it would be followed?

I can understand not using it on something like limited tire quantities due to the extra work involved for Voluteer's, but surely if a rule as simple as allowing Lipo's is passed there is no reason for them not to be used? :confused: Especially as the hard work (making rules/lists) has already been done for the touring car section this year.

[Lee]

Agreed John, there are a lot of issues with lipos that a lot of the public do not know and that i cannot go into on a public forum. There are a lot of safety issues with regard to them and basically its the EB who have the final say on what we run. I would not want to run something that has not been passed by people much more knowledgable in than me in that particular field.;)

I feel a lot of peoples trip to the agm, just to vote for lipos could be a wasted one.

[Northy]

Well I'll be going to my daughters christening...... :D

[jimarea51]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Can I come??

Christening that is...

JIm:woot:

[Lee]

Im going to graham and jims daughters christening too

[Northy]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Can I come??

Christening that is...

JIm:woot:

Er.... don't you have to be there? :(

G

[Chrislong]

Whatever rumours do the rounds. The proposal needs votes to get passed so im still fully intending on going, as is Carl & Matt, Cocker and a few guys from Southport. Don't let the rumours put you off attending, show your support.

I am strongly against running Nimh cells for any longer than I need to, they're unreliable, unpredictable, unsafe and make racing too expensive, then with all the voodoo on charge, discharge, equalise, storeage.... :thumbdown:.. for godsakes, Lipo's don't even need to be assembled!!! How easy could they be.

If the passed proposal still gets turned down on other grounds, well it'd need to have good proof on whatever grounds. But if the rumours put you off attending and it doesn't get passed in the first place - well it'd be a shame to have not tried. :(

[super__dan]

I was planning on going to the AGM to be involved in the process and to know in my mind whether the right decision was made.

However I too am going to Mia's Christening.

[telboy]

They should do 'online voting' for those that can't make it.
Yes we should all support our hobby and should vote towards things that need to be voted for. But, there are actually things, that in the real world, are actually more important than model car racing (such as Mr G's daughters christening, and my own situation with the twins which will be kicking in around that time too).
So I think they should hook with present technology and add online voting.
I'm sure most people (like myself) would love to come along and vote, but just have more 'important' things to be doing.
I used to go to all the AGM's and vote for subjects related to the extinct F1 class, even though there was only a handful of us racing in it, so I know what its all about. But as I said, I've had more pressing engagements in the last 10 yrs or so like, family, business, work that haven't allowed me to go.

Personally, I don't see why they shouldn't allow them. The TC lads have run them all year without a hitch (not that I've heard of anyway) and they'll charge theirs at stupid rates to get every last ounce of performanc out of them. We on the other hand, won't have to realy.
And surely they can't be no more harmful that the cells we run now (and last year) yet we still run them.

:)

[Body Paint]

Totally agree with Chris Long here, if you don't go and show your support for Lipo then why should the EB even coonsider making Lipo legal for 09.

If you want something to happen you HAVE to make youself heard, that could be just a case of sticking your hand in the air to support a proposal and make the officials aware that we (the BRCA members) want Lipo brought in.

[mark christopher]

double post

[mark christopher]

without wishing to get into a debate about the pro's and con's of lipo cells i think it does need pointing out that just because you vote for something at an AGM doesn't mean it will happen, as an example proposals to use a limited number of tyres at an event could be passed, it is then up to the off road committee to try and sort out how, it has been discussed on here before that it would be almost impossible to police and scrutineer, so it probably wouldn't happen.
similarly lipo's, vote whatever you want, but it doesn't mean it will happen.


Agreed John, there are a lot of issues with lipos that a lot of the public do not know and that i cannot go into on a public forum. There are a lot of safety issues with regard to them and basically its the EB who have the final say on what we run. I would not want to run something that has not been passed by people much more knowledgable in than me in that particular field.;)

I feel a lot of peoples trip to the agm, just to vote for lipos could be a wasted one.

i hate to point the obvious but, the there is a brca lipo list, that is being used by the on road section, how could they say no to one yet ok for another??

[c0sie]

As far as im aware it isnt the EB that calls the shots over whether a section can use LiPo's. The EB (again, as far as I am aware) put out 'legal' lists that they deem fit. That doesnt mean, however, that the section has to use these lists.
Obviously sections do use the EB's lists as the EB do a tireless job in making sure all the cells on those lists are not only fair across the board but also as safe as they can be. Gotta give the EB props for that!!

Look at the micro section. LiPo's are 'legal' in our section yet we have not approached the EB to draw our lists up.

Yes, it gets all complicated and technical, but at the end of the day, as has been said before, its us the BRCA members that have the power to change the rules. If you want LiPo's voted in then we have to all vote them in first off!

PS: If it does get proposed ill be there alongside Chris and Craig with my hand in the air for sure.

[burgie]

this "dangerous" lipo thing always makes me laugh.

I have seen lipo's in soft cases from r/c motobikes that are bent and damaged, yet they still run them

I have used Lipo's for one and a half full seasons in my 2wd, 4wd and truck. They have seen some huge crashes, including a snapped chassis on the truck and very high flying in the X5. one even fell out of a car and hit the track markings. Guess what? It didn't blow up, swell or set fire to the track and all it's surroundings. they still work fine and provide plenty of power - infact they feel as good now as they did when new.

How many ni-mih cells have blown this year? I think at least two went bang at the Southport National, some went "bang" in worksop, they have gone bang at the Supercup. And yet we have to charge lipo's in a sack. It's only been lucky that no-one has been injured with these ni-mih's blowing up.

Ni-Mih's go "bang" and send shrapnel far and wide, and still people say "oh, those Lipo's are dangerous, I think I will stick to my Ni-Mih's 'cos we know about them. They re safe....."

How many Lipo's have gone on fire or blown up this season in t/c's motorbikes or the off-road classes? I haven't heard of a single Lipo go on fire or fail in any way this year, and with forums such as this knocking about, if one had gone "bang", we would all know about it.

Lipo's are not dangerous in my opinion. Use the correct charger and follow the instructions an they are safer than ni-mihs.

[Kopite]

i haven't got any LIPO's yet (!), but am on edge charging my NiMH cells when i'm near them now, having seen them explode.

I kinda miss the days when the dangerous nature of cells just wasn't an issue:(

[Lee]

Lipo's are not dangerous in my opinion. Use the correct charger and follow the instructions an they are safer than ni-mihs.

This is what the Brca will be wary about, i agree and im sure anyone who treats them as intended will be very happy with the performance and lifecycle of the cells, its when people overcharge or raise the current to get that bit more performance, (and it will happen at some point) that accidents occur. Lipos do crazy things when overcharged and there is no easy way to regulate this for the BRCA.

I`m not against them in anyway, but after speaking to PW at length about lipo cells and the future i can see some potential issues with lipo, if mistreated.:)

[Northy]

I kinda miss the days when the dangerous nature of cells just wasn't an issue:(

Blame the Chineese! :woot:

G

[cjm_2008]

This is what the Brca will be wary about, i agree and im sure anyone who treats them as intended will be very happy with the performance and lifecycle of the cells, its when people overcharge or raise the current to get that bit more performance, (and it will happen at some point) that accidents occur. Lipos do crazy things when overcharged and there is no easy way to regulate this for the BRCA.

I`m not against them in anyway, but after speaking to PW at length about lipo cells and the future i can see some potential issues with lipo, if mistreated.:)

I was informed by a touring car racer (does all the TC nats) that some scrutineers are checking the output voltage of cells before races. that has to be a good idea, since he had anecdotes of some racers charging their cells up to 10v before a race for a bit of extra start line 'oomph'....

if the pack is showing more than 8.4v (for 1/10th), the driver shouldn't be allowed to run.

[Northy]

Mmmmm, UKAS calibrated DVM anyone? :woot:

G

[millzy]

i haven't got any LIPO's yet (!), but am on edge charging my NiMH cells when i'm near them now, having seen them explode.

I kinda miss the days when the dangerous nature of cells just wasn't an issue:(

im glad im not the only one on edge when charging

at EPR whyman told me to charge at 5.5 amps on his 2wd cells- i whimped out and went to 1c

olny did the final pack at what he said
never staid in the tent when i pressed charger mode

[Chrislong]

PS: If it does get proposed ill be there alongside Chris and Craig with my hand in the air for sure.

Hey Cris,
Yep I have sent a proposal to Charlie. I think Jonathan Clark is writing revised rules as direct replacements in the handbook (need any help JC?), and there is nothing stopping anyone else sending additional proposals too.

Glad to hear you'll be at the AGM :thumbsup:

I might see you at some 18th nationals too :) Just trying to get some stuff together again.

[Kopite]

im glad im not the only one on edge when charging

at EPR whyman told me to charge at 5.5 amps on his 2wd cells- i whimped out and went to 1c

olny did the final pack at what he said
never staid in the tent when i pressed charger mode

i only charge at 4 amps, the night before. i still think my 2wd (with a 6.5) is overpowered. I don't see the point in whacking up the amps in off road at all

[peetbee]

This is what the Brca will be wary about, i agree and im sure anyone who treats them as intended will be very happy with the performance and lifecycle of the cells, its when people overcharge or raise the current to get that bit more performance, (and it will happen at some point) that accidents occur. Lipos do crazy things when overcharged and there is no easy way to regulate this for the BRCA.

I`m not against them in anyway, but after speaking to PW at length about lipo cells and the future i can see some potential issues with lipo, if mistreated.:)

As do NIMHs which is why the BRCA released guidelines regarding the charging and maintenance of them. Sounds like the issue for both types of cell, relates to the user rather than the cells!

[Lee]

I totally agree but you do not get the gains from a nimh that you do from a lipo by overcharging ;)

[peetbee]

I totally agree but you do not get the gains from a nimh that you do from a lipo by overcharging ;)

I wouldn't know I never overcharged either! http://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/angel.gif (http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/smilies.htm#)

[Lee]

I have charged at 10amps in the past when racing stock snorers but never charged a lipo. This is just information i have from a reputable source :woot::p

[mark christopher]

This is what the Brca will be wary about, i agree and im sure anyone who treats them as intended will be very happy with the performance and lifecycle of the cells, its when people overcharge or raise the current to get that bit more performance, (and it will happen at some point) that accidents occur. Lipos do crazy things when overcharged and there is no easy way to regulate this for the BRCA.

I`m not against them in anyway, but after speaking to PW at length about lipo cells and the future i can see some potential issues with lipo, if mistreated.:)

I have charged at 10amps in the past when racing stock snorers but never charged a lipo. This is just information i have from a reputable source :woot::p

As do NIMHs which is why the BRCA released guidelines regarding the charging and maintenance of them. Sounds like the issue for both types of cell, relates to the user rather than the cells!

lee good claim mate, you can see issues if somin is mistreted, would some one chuck a lite match in a bucket of petrol?
do nimh go pop if mis treated, is the idea not o miss treat em.?

im my opinnion anyone caught mistreating and endajering others should face a year BRCA ban if caught, simple as, make that he rule and let them take the change if they want to be dicks

[losixxx]

i think the main issue with lipo's is the hard/soft casing on them and what's better/more stable, i understand the manufacture's say softcase is far better for performance at least
im sure 99% of us don't know the real reason there's issue's

[JohnM]

I'm going to be really uncontructive now, but I couldn't give two figs what the BRCA decides about if we can use LiPos next year, my 2 local clubs Lawford and Coastal already allow the use of them, so I'll be using them no matter what the BRCA says, if that means I don't get to do Regionals, fine, it'll save me money travelling miles to stand in wet fields.

[mark christopher]

i think the main issue with lipo's is the hard/soft casing on them and what's better/more stable, i understand the manufacture's say softcase is far better for performance at least
im sure 99% of us don't know the real reason there's issue's
how can a hard plastic case alter performance

[DCM]

don't get me started on the potential issue's with LiPo.....

As long as they are on a LiPo capable charger, with the correct mAh setting and the correct cell number, they are fool proof.

As soon as you start saying that LiPo got to be charged in sacks and you got to do this and that in the name of 'safety' then you got to do the exact same thing with NiMH's. In fact, right now, I reckon NiMH's are far more dangerous than a LiPo pack.

In the end, if you want to be a tit, and not charge correctly, then you don't deserve to be racing, LiPo or NiMH's, thats my opinion!!

[mark christopher]

don't get me started on the potential issue's with LiPo.....

As long as they are on a LiPo capable charger, with the correct mAh setting and the correct cell number, they are fool proof.

As soon as you start saying that LiPo got to be charged in sacks and you got to do this and that in the name of 'safety' then you got to do the exact same thing with NiMH's. In fact, right now, I reckon NiMH's are far more dangerous than a LiPo pack.

In the end, if you want to be a tit, and not charge correctly, then you don't deserve to be racing, LiPo or NiMH's, thats my opinion!!


god i never thought id read you posting that about lipo!!

we agree at last :thumbsup:

[cjm_2008]

don't get me started on the potential issue's with LiPo.....

As long as they are on a LiPo capable charger, with the correct mAh setting and the correct cell number, they are fool proof.

As soon as you start saying that LiPo got to be charged in sacks and you got to do this and that in the name of 'safety' then you got to do the exact same thing with NiMH's. In fact, right now, I reckon NiMH's are far more dangerous than a LiPo pack.

In the end, if you want to be a tit, and not charge correctly, then you don't deserve to be racing, LiPo or NiMH's, thats my opinion!!

you've got to BALANCE CHARGE! (club joke) :p

[DCM]

don't get me going on that Craig, still a tad hot under the collar there.... lol

[gps3300]

I had to buy new BRCA legal batteries this season and leave my pefectly good 2 year old 4200's at home. After 4 months use (5 National meetings!) all my 2008 cells have had cells go down despite equalizing every use. They are easily the worst batteries I've ever bought:(.

I'm keen to see Lipo's in off-road as I'm fed up with the lottery of NiMh buying, plus no more assembly and the other outdated crap NiMh's require.

I don't know all the Lipo risks hinted at on this thread. Why can't someone list them? I understand they can catch fire if damaged or charged incorrectly, but as somebody has already stated, I'd rather face the risk of a fire than exploding NiMh shrapnel inside a tent at point blank range.

[Body Paint]

I had to buy new BRCA legal batteries this season and leave my pefectly good 2 year old 4200's at home. After 4 months use (5 National meetings!) all my 2008 cells have had cells go down despite equalizing every use. They are easily the worst batteries I've ever bought:(.

I'm keen to see Lipo's in off-road as I'm fed up with the lottery of NiMh buying, plus no more assembly and the other outdated crap NiMh's require.

I don't know all the Lipo risks hinted at on this thread. Why can't someone list them? I understand they can catch fire if damaged or charged incorrectly, but as somebody has already stated, I'd rather face the risk of a fire than exploding NiMh shrapnel inside a tent at point blank range.

Have a look in your latest BRCA circuit chatter, there is a full Lipo charging guide it. Do exactly what that tells you to do and you'll be laughing.

[mobile chicane]

also as far as I know the brca aproved packs are tested so only serious abuse in the charging process or substantial damage from an extreme acident would cause a fire.


awaits rebuke

[modelimages]

As i said the debate on safety etc is not something i want to get into, i was pointing out the issues referance an AGM proposal, a couple of issues that would need discussion are can you run both Nimh and Lipo together?.
if you did you would double the approval process and obviously have two lists, if you say Lipo only then you could lose a lot of drivers who don't want to go Lipo. At the moment how many of the A finalists at southport would have used them if they could have? my answer would be none of them, currently Nimh have the edge in terms of raw grunt,that will obviously change as the development continues, several of the drivers would not use them simply because the cant fit them in!, 4wd is a major problem at the moment as you can count on the finger of one finger the amount of available saddle packs capable of competing with a Nimh pack, again more will come onto the market but at the moment you couldn't go lipo exclusively and run a 4wd event. 1/10 off road cars at the moment are designed around the 6 cell stick or saddle layout some can use lipo and some cannot, car manufacturers need to address the lipo specific car which again they will but in time for next season?.

[DCM]

I got to disagree there.... the LiPo produces better power over a 5 min run than a NiMH pack, the cheaper ones, no, but then you buy cheap NiMH's and they don't produce the grunt.

As for the running together, I don't see why not, as long as the cars are hitting the minimum weight, there isn't really an issue.

[Body Paint]

As i said the debate on safety etc is not something i want to get into, i was pointing out the issues referance an AGM proposal, a couple of issues that would need discussion are can you run both Nimh and Lipo together?.
if you did you would double the approval process and obviously have two lists, if you say Lipo only then you could lose a lot of drivers who don't want to go Lipo. At the moment how many of the A finalists at southport would have used them if they could have? my answer would be none of them, currently Nimh have the edge in terms of raw grunt,that will obviously change as the development continues, several of the drivers would not use them simply because the cant fit them in!, 4wd is a major problem at the moment as you can count on the finger of one finger the amount of available saddle packs capable of competing with a Nimh pack, again more will come onto the market but at the moment you couldn't go lipo exclusively and run a 4wd event. 1/10 off road cars at the moment are designed around the 6 cell stick or saddle layout some can use lipo and some cannot, car manufacturers need to address the lipo specific car which again they will but in time for next season?.

Are you freekin nuts? Have you even tried Lipo? I strongly suggest you get your facts right before posting what you think is factual information. I'm sorry to come accross so strongly but you really are very very wrong.

[SlowOne]

i hate to point the obvious but, the there is a brca lipo list, that is being used by the on road section, how could they say no to one yet ok for another??Each Section decides what it will or won't use, not the EB. 12th have just announced that they will allow NiMh from teh 2007 list so that our drivers, who have perfectly usable cells from last year, don't have to buy new ones. We also decided last year that we would allow sintered rotors in any BL (contrary to EB homologation lists) to save our scrutineers the problems of finding them. Section decisions, not EB decisions...


Lipo's are not dangerous in my opinion. Use the correct charger and follow the instructions an they are safer than ni-mihs.This statement also applies to NiMh - use the right charger at the right charge rate and they're fine.

i haven't got any LIPO's yet (!), but am on edge charging my NiMH cells when i'm near them now, having seen them explode.

I kinda miss the days when the dangerous nature of cells just wasn't an issue:(Then use EnerG or EP NiMh - just like the good old days. :thumbsup:

I totally agree but you do not get the gains from a nimh that you do from a lipo by overcharging ;)No, but you can get gains by charging at higher rates - equally foolhardy, undetectable, and with poor results.


In the end, if you want to be a tit, and not charge correctly, then you don't deserve to be racing, LiPo or NiMH's, thats my opinion!!And not one that is in the minority, I'll wager!

Why is everyone in a lather about this. Someone propose it to the AGM, and then vote on it. There's plenty of evidence that LiPo is OK, and apparently plenty of people wanting to use them. Propose, vote - is it that difficult?? :eh?:

[bigred5765]

already been proposed, and a bunch of going to vote hope they rented a big enough room pub for us all lol,

[Chrislong]

John, your word is usually quite reliable but you are wrong on this topic.

:thumbsup:
Proposed = done.
Vote = lets get on it.

Equally, those who don't want it, you got to opose it. Get to the AGM. As are many of us who strongly want it. :)

[DCM]

the proposal is only a concern if you race off-road at national/regional level, as I don't really do nationals and the regionals down here.... I won't even go into (ask Millzy), then for club, it isn't an issue.

But it would be good to see the rules amended to cater for 2S stick packs and 2S2P saddle packs.

[mark christopher]

the proposal is only a concern if you race off-road at national/regional level, as I don't really do nationals and the regionals down here.... I won't even go into (ask Millzy), then for club, it isn't an issue.

But it would be good to see the rules amended to cater for 2S stick packs and 2S2P saddle packs.
not all the saddles are 2s2p

[matt]

I thought the TC rules were 2S and any amount in P:cry:

[Jonathan]

Im UK based but I remember reading that ROAR seem to do some pretty hardcore testing (NimH charge ! dead short discharge !) and for exampe the popular Trakpower 3200 saddle is ROAR approved.

Not saying we should be complacent about any aspect of LiPo but nice to know these checks are being done.

Copied from http://www.centralbooking.org/cbs/index.php?view=article&catid=54%3Ahelpful-info-a-faqs&id=86%3Alipo-cells-information-from-roar&option=com_content&Itemid=109


8.3.2.4 Overcharge TestThe Overcharge Test simulates a common condition of user error where the pack is being incorrectly charged. The pack is allowed to puff and/or vent, but the pack is not allowed to show open flame at any time during the test procedure. A vast majority of Lipo destructive failures (puffed/vented/burned packs) happen while the pack is on the charger, and a vast majority of them happen because of simple user error in selecting the correct pack voltage to charge at, or charging them with anything other than the correct Lipo battery mode. Forgetting to set the charger to Lipo mode, and then charging the Lipo pack with NiMH mode is an excellent example of what this test simulates.

8.3.2.5 External Short Circuit Test
The External Short Circuit Test basically puts a discharge load on the pack, and then discharges it all the way down to zero volts. The pack is allowed to puff and/or vent, but not allowed to show any open flame for the duration of the test. This test simulates driving a vehicle without using a proper 6v cutoff all the way down to where it won’t drive any longer, or a similar case of leaving a Lipo pack plugged into an ESC for an extended period of time which will also drain it all the way down.

[modelimages]

Are you freekin nuts? Have you even tried Lipo? I strongly suggest you get your facts right before posting what you think is factual information. I'm sorry to come accross so strongly but you really are very very wrong.
on every point? or just some, of course i have tried lipo's and i do not have any issues over them being used, i still think they are under developed in terms of "c" rating and i think you can get more from a nimh cell at the moment, some cars would be a pain to try and fit lipo's in but not impossible, there is a lack of choice in saddle configuration.
as i said earlier its not about lipo v nimh but the assumption that a yes vote will automatically mean it will be used. we seem to be debating the wrong things here, safety issues have been done over and over, the real points are how you can implement a yes vote within the constraints of a national meeting, will scrutineering be affected?, will there be an unfair advantage using/not using a cell, does the rapid improvement in lipo cell technology mean any rules made in december will be useless by march. etc etc.
i am not anti lipo, if you vote for something and you get a yes and then the people responsible for its implementation say sorry that cant be done because of A,B and C and you have no counter argument because all you have done in the months previously is debate safety issues or jumped down the throat of anybody who is not 100% lipo convinced then be prepared for disappointment.

[cjm_2008]

on every point? or just some, of course i have tried lipo's and i do not have any issues over them being used, i still think they are under developed in terms of "c" rating and i think you can get more from a nimh cell at the moment, some cars would be a pain to try and fit lipo's in but not impossible, there is a lack of choice in saddle configuration.
as i said earlier its not about lipo v nimh but the assumption that a yes vote will automatically mean it will be used. we seem to be debating the wrong things here, safety issues have been done over and over, the real points are how you can implement a yes vote within the constraints of a national meeting, will scrutineering be affected?, will there be an unfair advantage using/not using a cell, does the rapid improvement in lipo cell technology mean any rules made in december will be useless by march. etc etc.
i am not anti lipo, if you vote for something and you get a yes and then the people responsible for its implementation say sorry that cant be done because of A,B and C and you have no counter argument because all you have done in the months previously is debate safety issues or jumped down the throat of anybody who is not 100% lipo convinced then be prepared for disappointment.

all the issues you mention are blown out of the water by the fundamental issue of cost.

a racer can realistically expect to turn up to a national and do the whole meeting with only 2 packs of cells - and the total cost will be way less than the latest and greatest matched zapped nursed nimh. and they'll deliver more raceworthy cycles.

more manufacturers will release packs in a saddle pack configuration.

the rules can be written to stipulate a maximum C rating.

this is all a little silly as the technology is ALREADY legal for TC - so what exactly is the difference between TC and offroad?

if the yes vote is passed, but the powers that be decide to look at A, B, and C as you mention, and then turn round and say we can't use lipo....? I can't see that ever happening - too many people would split away.

[mark christopher]

on every point? or just some, of course i have tried lipo's and i do not have any issues over them being used, i still think they are under developed in terms of "c" rating and i think you can get more from a nimh cell at the moment, some cars would be a pain to try and fit lipo's in but not impossible, there is a lack of choice in saddle configuration.
as i said earlier its not about lipo v nimh but the assumption that a yes vote will automatically mean it will be used. we seem to be debating the wrong things here, safety issues have been done over and over, the real points are how you can implement a yes vote within the constraints of a national meeting, will scrutineering be affected?, will there be an unfair advantage using/not using a cell, does the rapid improvement in lipo cell technology mean any rules made in december will be useless by march. etc etc.
i am not anti lipo, if you vote for something and you get a yes and then the people responsible for its implementation say sorry that cant be done because of A,B and C and you have no counter argument because all you have done in the months previously is debate safety issues or jumped down the throat of anybody who is not 100% lipo convinced then be prepared for disappointment.
how are current cell rules policed?
if you have a list as the tc section, whats the difference?

[Lee]

I dont think safety is the main issue when it comes to lipo, it is the point of not being able to regulate the individual cells in the car. For instance if only 3200 cells were legalised (it sounds like a drug :woot:) then they are the equivelant to a 4200nimh i am told, so everyone is happy but...... there is a possibility of someone with the identical cells that you have in your car to have 40% more capacity and voltage in their cells due to the way they charge them. This is what the brca will be worried about. (we all know it will happen at some point) this then obviously shortens the life of the cell and they are no longer the cheap alternative:)

[mark christopher]

I dont think safety is the main issue when it comes to lipo, it is the point of not being able to regulate the individual cells in the car. For instance if only 3200 cells were legalised (it sounds like a drug :woot:) then they are the equivelant to a 4200nimh i am told, so everyone is happy but...... there is a possibility of someone with the identical cells that you have in your car to have 40% more capacity and voltage in their cells due to the way they charge them. This is what the brca will be worried about. (we all know it will happen at some point) this then obviously shortens the life of the cell and they are no longer the cheap alternative:)
tc have a cap of 5000mah i think, simple solution, make it clear if somone is found charging outside brca guide lines then make it clear that they will be banned from the brca for a year, if they want to take that chance. i doubt in off road it would be an advantage.

[Lee]

Agreed mark i dont think there would be an advantage in off road but there might be 1 event that eats the cells.

Is it possible to police the mah ruling or is it just a case of trust?

[DCM]

tc have a cap of 5000mah i think, simple solution, make it clear if somone is found charging outside brca guide lines then make it clear that they will be banned from the brca for a year, if they want to take that chance. i doubt in off road it would be an advantage.

I know they are already charging at more than 1C at the super stock series at the nationals :(

As for policing charging, we have to do that for both types of cells, as the BRCA recomends only 1C for NiMHs and I know for sure that most don't. I think you can only take a certain amount of measures to make things safe, you can't police everything, and the racer/pit bitch has GOT to take some responsibility into the process, otherwise it all becomes very unmanageable.

The limit to 5000mAh is more to do with what is legally transportable on a airplane, to do with the volume of a certain chemical inside the cell.... just go ask Worsle or Chris Hardisity.... I did, I had info overload!!

C rating, I don't think a maximum limit should be set, but I really do think a minimum limit should be set, as to low you are really hammering the cells.

[Cockerill]

Roar have many tests for Lipo cells to pass before they can go on the 'list'. One of these tests is over-charging. If we adopted the same or similar rules then I would assume we would also have an over-charging test.

This means that any Lipo legal at a meeting will NOT be volatile/explode/set fire to everything/etc otherwise it would not pass the tests.

So if someone wants to over-charge their Lipo to get 40% more power so be it, all it means is they will crash 40% quicker and ruin their Lipo all in one, and if they are found out they should also have another punishment.

In off-road we can over-power our cars, so there is no real argument for having to over-charger any cells. So why would anyone want to over-charge Lipo purposely to get extra power when they could just drop a wind or 2?

In my opinion I would say the advantages of Lipo are: Easier to use, Less Needed, More Performance, Lighter.

From that list the only 2 that effect car performance are useless. Our cars are already over-powered so we would just go up a wind to account for the extra power. The weight of them, we will all run to the same weight limit, and some people already add weight to their cars with NiMh cells.

So to me I see no reason why Lipo and NiMH can't run together, the same way Brushed/Brushless did, eventually one will become the driver's favorite and 95% of the people will run it, like they do with brushless.

[The Hoff]

What cars can lipos not fit in ?

[losixxx]

xx4/s4 to name 2

[Chrislong]

xx4/s4 to name 2

3200 Saddles will fit both of those.

XX4, just turn the cell brace over.

S4/S44, either side of the prop - I think Craig or Jonathan will describe how, they were used in Belgium.

Edit: if anybody want to test fit Lipo in their car, please come find me. I will help with pleasure and usually have most choices of Trakpower packs with me at any one time.

[burgie]

to be pedantic, lipos fit xx-4's.......and the trakpower saddles fit conventional 4wd chassis, and lipos fit in X-5's too.

looks like it's just the S4 then!

[mark christopher]

3200 Saddles will fit both of those.

XX4, just turn the cell brace over.

S4/S44, either side of the prop - I think Craig or Jonathan will describe how, they were used in Belgium.

Edit: if anybody want to test fit Lipo in their car, please come find me. I will help with pleasure and usually have most choices of Trakpower packs with me at any one time.

to be pedantic, lipos fit xx-4's.......and the trakpower saddles fit conventional 4wd chassis, and lipos fit in X-5's too.

looks like it's just the S4 then!
?????

[Chrislong]

Hey MC, I think CB just typed his post while I posted mine.

[mark christopher]

that would make sence.

[sparrow.2]

There is exactly the same discussion going on in German forums at the moment too. It's funny to see this thread raging on and having exactly the same arguements pop up.

It seems as though we now have a proposal in Germany most people agree on for offroad. It reads along the lines of:
- minimum 3000mAh and 20C
- max 7.4V
- free format
- LIXX tech (allowing, LiFePo when they become readily available)

and leaving everything else open.

If anyone wants to blow their cells up by overcharging, then so be it. The newer cells will just swell and not blow.
The same goes for charging at over 1C. Some manufacturers already allow charging at 2C and it does nothing for the power delivery apart from heating the cells a little more before they go in the car and reducing the charge time a little. If you want to be really anal you can warm your pack to about 45-50°C before driving to get max power out of it but doesn't make a huge difference either.

Seriously speaking, for offroad there are no real advantages to using anything over 5000mAh as it just results in more wheelies on grip or more wheelspin on slippy surfaces.
I now run 3200mAh cells in 20C flavor and have been going just fine with them. Even whole races with practise on 1 pack, recharging about 1200-1400mAh into it between heats. This was with a B4 with a 7.5 brushless on astroturf and the car was plenty quick! I try and rotate packs a little but that one race had to run one pack as others had not arrived.
During that race the pack did not once come out of the car hot, nor did it ever feel "different" to the other runs and is still going strong.

[OldTimer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrislong http://www.oople.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?p=147880#post147880)
3200 Saddles will fit both of those.

XX4, just turn the cell brace over.

S4/S44, either side of the prop - I think Craig or Jonathan will describe how, they were used in Belgium.

Edit: if anybody want to test fit Lipo in their car, please come find me. I will help with pleasure and usually have most choices of Trakpower packs with me at any one time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burgie http://www.oople.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?p=147881#post147881)
to be pedantic, lipos fit xx-4's.......and the trakpower saddles fit conventional 4wd chassis, and lipos fit in X-5's too.

looks like it's just the S4 then!



I ran a Atomized B44 with 4800 Trakpower saddle pack lipos while we were at the Belgium GP :thumbsup:

With the S4 the only problem with converting it is that it would need a small diameter propshaft, something similar to the steel B44 one, as the Jconcepts aluminmum one is to large a diameter to get everything in the chassis.

[losixxx]

i will be ok with my s4 though as lipo's won't be legal for off-road anyway:lol:;)

[modelimages]

nice to see some proper debate, tom cockerill is correct when he points out the racers will use whatever they think is best for them, brushless or brushed last year and this year 95% brushless. as i said you can fit lipo into most cars, but only one the trackpower 3200 saddle. is there any other saddles on the horizon from any one else?. every one seems happy about the charging issues, yes you can overcharge them and no doubt someone will but that doesn't make it any different than the current situation. costs, lipo is cheaper?, well yes and no individual lipo packs are more expensive but you need less of them, i currently take 10 packs to a national for two racers so approx £400, do lipo and say two packs each around the £240 mark. still need a charger but no need for the smart tray and no need to seperate those that have been discharge/equalised etc.

i currently use lipo in a b4, i would use it in the 4wd cars but i would like a choice. joe's x6 and dans s2 could take lipo but as we cant use them at national/regional or club at the moment there doesn't seem much point. one question i do have is if EFRA go lipo for off road surely we must as well?

[Lee]

one question i do have is if EFRA go lipo for off road surely we must as well?

Playing devils advocate:


I dont think we need too unless it is proven that there is a performance advantage to running lipo, people are saying there is none. ;)

[mac]

If it becomes legal i'm sure other manufactures would look at making a saddle formation pack, when the TrakPower cells were put on the 'BRCA pro-stock Class' list in total there were 5 packs (Trakpower being 2 of those!) now there are 17 packs.
As soon as companys feel they are missing out, i'm sure they will "follow"!!!

[sparrow.2]

There are plenty of choices of saddle lipos. Trackpower, Yuntong, Corally, Reedy to name just the ones I can think of right away.

You can also by two 2500mAh singles and hook them up as a saddle like a lot of pro10 guys here do.

[mark christopher]

nice to see some proper debate, tom cockerill is correct when he points out the racers will use whatever they think is best for them, brushless or brushed last year and this year 95% brushless. as i said you can fit lipo into most cars, but only one the trackpower 3200 saddle. is there any other saddles on the horizon from any one else?. every one seems happy about the charging issues, yes you can overcharge them and no doubt someone will but that doesn't make it any different than the current situation. costs, lipo is cheaper?, well yes and no individual lipo packs are more expensive but you need less of them, i currently take 10 packs to a national for two racers so approx £400, do lipo and say two packs each around the £240 mark. still need a charger but no need for the smart tray and no need to seperate those that have been discharge/equalised etc.

i currently use lipo in a b4, i would use it in the 4wd cars but i would like a choice. joe's x6 and dans s2 could take lipo but as we cant use them at national/regional or club at the moment there doesn't seem much point. one question i do have is if EFRA go lipo for off road surely we must as well?
am i missing somthing? are you saying two packs are £240?
the 3200 retail at about £45 if you say two packs and £100 for charger/balancer units

[modelimages]

i said 2 packs each which is 4, 4 3200 are indeed £45 each but others such as the 4800 are more expensive up to £75

[SlowOne]

tc have a cap of 5000mah i think, simple solution, make it clear if somone is found charging outside brca guide lines then make it clear that they will be banned from the brca for a year, if they want to take that chance. i doubt in off road it would be an advantage.There's the rub, Mark. No way of telling what's been done in charging, unless you have a voltage check before going on the track - soon there'll be more officials than racers!! :D :D

It isn't the top drivers who take liberties, it's usually those in the B, C, D, trying to make a better final. If you can afford it, overcharging a LiPo gives a performance benefit, and after a few cycles, you bin the pack. Who's to bet this wouldn't happen at EFRA/IFMAR level, where no voltage checks are in the Rules?

NiMh (and NiCad) used to suffer from people injecting things into the cell through the vent, but then we brought in the weight checks and that stopped. Then we had the '10A blast charge' but as motors got more powerful that stopped. LiPo has a few of these to go through, but it'll live.

[mark christopher]

my idea of a check would be random officials walking round checking charger settings too, dont think off road will be as much of an issue as has been said, too much power is not allways a benifit tc goes for all out power, off road go for drivability

[Cockerill]

overcharging a LiPo gives a performance benefit

Which is completely irrelevant in off-road as the chances are there will be another 3 winds of motor you could drop before you were at the 'power' limit, and if you are at the 'power' limit you will probably be doing rubbish as your car is too quick.

Regarding EFRA, ideally I think we want to have the same rules as them, unfortunately our AGM is before theirs so we have to hope that we pick the right choice.

[Danny]

I cant understand why "grunt" is an issue in off road? :confused: Surely if you need more grunt you use a faster wind? If its too fast, ease off the slipper a bit & gear down maybe? Can someone please explain to a dunce why having a slightly higher voltage is important?

[sparrow.2]

I cant understand why "grunt" is an issue in off road? :confused: Surely if you need more grunt you use a faster wind? If its too fast, ease off the slipper a bit & gear down maybe? Can someone please explain to a dunce why having a slightly higher voltage is important?

It isn't! You charge a lipo to 8.4V and NiMhs to whatever voltage they peak at, which is usually over the 8.4V that comes out of a lipo.
The big difference comes with the sustainability of the voltage when you apply a load. Depnding on the continuous output capability of the lipo it will not dip so far when you apply a load (i.e. accelerate out of a corner)

All of this is pretty irrelevant in offroad as the power is nearly always limited by the surface you are racing on and the design of the cars. You might find that a lipo with a higher C rating at the same capacity will feel a little more punchy if you don't compensate with the settings on the speedo or a different motor (say a 3200mAh 25C compared to a 3200mAh 20C)

[Chrislong]

All well said :). Anybody cheating the cells by abusing them is only cheating themselves, as we are currently able to go far faster than we are doin but we choose not to. Those that choose to go nuts just crash faster/more often, break more and wear things out - and all at the expense of the cell which will be Fubar'd after a few charges.