Mac Laptops

[Lee]

What does everyone think to them?

I think they look smart, but are they worth the money.

Oh and it needs to be a laptop, desktops are no good for me before the PC fanclub attack me :woot:

[Southwell]

Well do you want it because it looks good or because you need the Mac OS?

[DAVIDZX5]

I dont rate APPLE as i think it is well over priced..........

I was looking to by a new laptop yesterday and i was looking at the APPLES but i went for a TOSHIBA EQUIUM A300D - 16C

:drool:

[Dunc]

I think they look smart, but are they worth the money.

In terms of hardware, of course not, you can get much more for your money with a "traditional" laptop.

As Southwell says, it all depends how keen you are on Mac OS (and associated software).

[Northy]

Well do you want it because it looks good or because you need the Mac OS?

It's because he's a cock and has more money than he knows what to do with! :woot:

G

[SlowOne]

Best OS and hardware on earth. Everything just works, doesn't crash, and is sooooo easy to use. Always backwards compatible, get cheaper every year, and upgrades are easy.

I've used Macs since 1987, and I'm on my third - they might be more expensive than a cheap PC, but you don't have to buy on very often. My SE30 was upgraded after six years because there was no Internet when it was designed. My G4 was upgraded in 2004 when I needed to go to the OS10 operating system to get iTunes, etc. for my iPod. This Powerbook G4 has had a memory upgrade this year (£100 to 2 Gig) to run Leopard and MobileMe. My iPod Touch now has mobile e-mail, thanks to taking the new Leopard system and a £6.99 piece of software.

None of my friends in the office have succeeded in making Vista work properly first time (some not at all!!) and they change hardware like underpants. Poor products, overpriced and underperforming.

You can all scoff at a Mac, but I defy anyone to have spent less than me over 20 years on computers, and yet have all the latest software and gizmos loaded - and working. :thumbsup:

[Lee]

I like how the little apple glows on the back when it on :drool:


But in all seriousness, i like the software, i like how quick they are and everything is so much more polished and neater than windows, i also like the photo packages they do. They are also a lot more friendly nowadays to windows style programs. i like them.


Did i mention about the little apple on the back:woot:

[Mrs.TeamXtreme]

HI LEE,

I have one at home, bit confusing at first to a P.C but I prefer my apple. Also doesn't pick up virus' like a P.C when you are on the net. Stylish and compact too.:thumbsup:

[jimmy]

I fancied one but to get one as powerful as my samsung R700 I'd have to spend a lot more - and since I only use the laptop for race meetings, It's simply not worth it. They do look rather nice though.

[frogger]

Best OS and hardware on earth. Everything just works, doesn't crash, and is sooooo easy to use. Always backwards compatible, get cheaper every year, and upgrades are easy.

None of my friends in the office have succeeded in making Vista work properly first time (some not at all!!) and they change hardware like underpants. Poor products, overpriced and underperforming.

You can all scoff at a Mac, but I defy anyone to have spent less than me over 20 years on computers, and yet have all the latest software and gizmos loaded - and working. :thumbsup:

Mmm, no. Apple now use Intel hardware just like everybody else and they are pushing OS's out faster and faster that needs patching every so often too. I have 4 laptops in my house, one of them a new-ish MAC running Vista and in that form it's no better, actually a lot worse than the others.

As some people have already said, if you are keen on the MAC OS and want a bling looking laptop then go for it. My wife couldn't be bothered going through the learning curve on the MAC OS so that is why we ended up putting Vista on it. Now we like it even less, no right mouse button, no windows key, very poor battery life when running Vista, Apple webcam not compatible with Windows Messenger, etc.

On the other hand I have just bought a brand spankin new Dell XPS 1530 fully loaded for £800. Best laptop I have ever owned and I get a new laptop at least every year, sometimes twice a year (through work and otherwise) and have done for years so I've used a few. Almost as good as my new iPhone :thumbsup:

[jimmy]

You can have my windows key! :thumbsup: I have windows keys taken off all my keyboads :woot: shocking misserable little things whos sole purpose seems to be to jump you out of a game at the height of the action.

[frogger]

I'll swap you for the F7 and F8 key that keeps falling of my wife's MAC keyboard! :woot:

[Lee]

Windows keys are Gay Fact!!

I picked one up on the way home from work and im very impressed with it, it seems very fast, everything is done in an instant.

Is it just me or can you not get the web pages to fill the screen? Probably me just being thick:blush:

[Tim Ward]

Got a Macbook in December last year.

It's brilliant - I am a total Mac convert now - get one, you won't regret it!

[DCM]

I have enver seen the need for an Apple computer for home use, I can understand if you are into your computer artwork, but thats about it, I don't see any advantage. You rummage round the net and you find people with Macs have the same OS problems and hardware problems as with Windows.... It just costs you more money, thats all.

As for Vista, I must admit, I haven't had any issue's, had it since it came out, not re-installed it or anything, just kept the updates and the regular maintenance. I think the reason why people do upgrade hardware, is snobbery, computer snobbery, the newest thing is always better.... right??

[frogger]

:) some people upgrade hardware so as to be more productive. If you work in complex CAD programs, demonstrate software, etc. you can spend your life waiting for computers to do their job so that you can do yours. Having the latest and greatest fastest machine can mean the difference between selling someone on your new concept software or not.

But, as you rightly say, for most people newer hardware doesn't do much.

I am a real Vista fan too. Vista is awesome on powerful pc's laptops but it really does struggle on some older ones with less memory. If you plan on running Vista on your Mac make sure you get a lot of memory. If you plan on playing newer games on it get something better than the Macbook.

[craigosh]

Windows keys are Gay Fact!!

I picked one up on the way home from work and im very impressed with it, it seems very fast, everything is done in an instant.

Is it just me or can you not get the web pages to fill the screen? Probably me just being thick:blush:

You can get it to fill width wise, but height wise it will only fill from the bottom of the top bar to the top of the dock on the bottom, hence i have mine quite small and sometimes set to auto hide.

go to 'apple/dock/turn hiding on' to get it to auto hide.

[terry.sc]

Always used Apple machines myself ever since I had to admin a network with a mix of PCs and Macs and discovered which OS needed a whole load of software installed just to stop them keeling over when they were let loose on the internet.

Still using my 5 year old Powerbook G4 and each OS upgrade has meant it runs faster each time. Yes it was more expensive than the equivalent PC laptop, I guess most of the money went into the carbon fibre chassis and titanium case - it meant it has survived being knocked off a table a few times, try doing that with the cheap ABS cased PCs.
Except you can't drag Apples newer laptops off a table, the magnetic power lead just snaps off if you catch it. It's one of those nice details that you pay a but extra for but you soon realise why they have included it and wonder why PC makers don't.

Got a Macbook Pro and the multi touch trackpad, illuminated keyboard and light sensor are features that seem a gimmick, but again you soon start to wonder why no one else has them.

You notice nice touches like it recognises a camera, printer, etc. when you plug it in without crying out for a driver disk, and it takes about 5 seconds to join a wireless network.

And you can play a DVD without needing any extra software to be bundled with the machine.:p

[SlowOne]

Mmm, no. Apple now use Intel hardware just like everybody else and they are pushing OS's out faster and faster that needs patching every so often too. I have 4 laptops in my house, one of them a new-ish MAC running Vista and in that form it's no better, actually a lot worse than the others.

As some people have already said, if you are keen on the MAC OS and want a bling looking laptop then go for it. My wife couldn't be bothered going through the learning curve on the MAC OS so that is why we ended up putting Vista on it. Now we like it even less, no right mouse button, no windows key, very poor battery life when running Vista, Apple webcam not compatible with Windows Messenger, etc.

On the other hand I have just bought a brand spankin new Dell XPS 1530 fully loaded for £800. Best laptop I have ever owned and I get a new laptop at least every year, sometimes twice a year (through work and otherwise) and have done for years so I've used a few. Almost as good as my new iPhone :thumbsup:Did I read that right - you've bought a Mac and run Vista on it? Isn't that like buying a Ferrari F1 car, putting a GP2 engine in it, and then complaining it doesn't seem to go very well? I'm not surprised you don't like that combination...

My System updates have numbered 5 in 34 months, with 20 Security updates in that time. Since installing Leopard in January, I have had 4 software updates (each with more features, including MobileMe, not just patches) and 3 Security updates. There have been two Mac OSs since 2004, each one optional, and each one totally backwards compatible.

That you don't like Macs is fine, but next time you diss something (anything) please check your facts. :p

[JayUK91]

Yup, Macs are simply awesome. Just wish i could afford one! (Preferebly a Macbook Pro :) )

[Richard Lowe]

Best ... hardware on earth.
Did I read that right - you've bought a Mac and run Vista on it? ... I'm not surprised you don't like that combination...Make your mind up :p

Modern Macs are just PC's with an EFI instead of a BIOS running the Mac OS, Apple add their little bits like the multi touch pad ect but the core hardware is nothing different/special.

Before Slowone goes for the jugular, I dont hate Macs - I just dont understand the foaming, rabid devotion a lot of die hard Mac users have for their little boxes.

If anyone wants a cheap 'hackintosh', you can run Mac OS on the MSI Wind netbook (or cheaper/identical Advent 4211, if you can stomach going into PC World :wtf: ).

Lastly anyone that has trouble with Vista either has a steam powered machine they are trying to run it on, of they're a bit... useless.

[DCM]

If anyone wants a cheap 'hackintosh', you can run Mac OS on the MSI Wind netbook (or cheaper/identical Advent 4211, if you can stomach going into PC World :wtf: ).

Lastly anyone that has trouble with Vista either has a steam powered machine they are trying to run it on, of they're a bit... useless.

it's those sorts of quotes that makes me day lol....

[MattADH]

I am a true Mac convert and have used one at work for over 11 years now. We have just one PC in our office and that is because the accounts software is designed around their operating system

Personally, I love Apple stuff although when you are comparing machines, they do appear overpriced compared to PCs. To me they work logically and are easy to use.

Talk to someone who has used or has both and find out the pros/cons. I would recommend it. As someone said before, the prices are coming down a lot and the MacBooks are as powerful as the Pro machines but with a smaller screen and a few other tweaks.

[lochness42]

Mac looks cool. Super thin notebooks nice design and it's overpriced because of that. If you want to have good looking notebook and want to pay more - good choice. Other way keep away. When I was buying notebook I had chosen Fujitsu-Siemens Amilo Xi2550 - I don't regret it. My uncle bought it too and it's happy with it. I was thinking about Mac but hardware configs were low in comparison with other brands for same price. I hope you understand what I wanted to say (I'm not allways succesful in that :D).

And if you don't like win - find nice Linux distribution that will be good for you.

[glypo]

Mac's are stupid. That's about all I can say.

They all use i386 now, so now you can compare like for like (you couldn't when it was ppc) you see that you pay through the roof for the hardware. I mean honestly, you get nothing hardware-wise for the money.

And the software - how much of a mug do you have to be to buy OSX?!?! It's UNIX based... and people pay for it lol. It's honestly a source of much amusement to me. If you want a UNIX like system, you can download one of many Linux distros for free, legitimately, and find unlike OSX they are decent too.

I love people that think Mac's are immune to viruses. Just as my mate did, until I checked his system. Nothing is immune to malware... sure most of it is written for Windows based systems but that doesn't mean all.

As for simple to use. If you took someone that has never seen a PC before and introduced them to OSX and Vista, I expect they will either find them equally easy to use, or maybe even find Vista better. I'm certainly a Linux user but even I own and enjoy Vista very much... Microsoft have done a great job with it.

The fact is, in terms of functionality nothing is better on a Mac. If you run engineering applications you do so Windows, Linux or UNIX. For business applications, you run Windows. Lets not forget what people always say Mac is best for - creative suites. Well basically every major film and tv studio actually use Linux for special effects and editting (runs much better on supercomputers) and I think applications like Photoshop and Dreamweaver now run much better on Windows than Mac.

So the only reason therefore to have a Mac.... is to try to be different. Where ironically trying to be different, you are all herding in with the other people trying to be cool by having a Mac. It's just like the whole iPod thing. Take a second to compare and you will find players with much better sound quality (Creative, Sony, Toshiba, SanDisk etc) and better video support... yet it seems everyone has iPods because it's the 'cool' thing to have.


It's nice to have a rant.

[jim76]

couldn't agree more Jason

[Gnarly Old Dog]

OK - I admit it. I'm superficial. Yes, I must be a tart. and Yes, I must have more money than sense but it is my money and dammit, I like being superficial.

I love my macs and have done ever since I had enough money to buy my first.

I can't be cold and logical when it comes to spending my money - I have to like what I am spending it on.
And the little pulsating heart beat along with the illuminated logo says it all - tres cool:D


Yes - you can get a comparable wintel box for a lot less money and, if you're not afraid of computers, they'll both do the same thing but I just can't get excited about the looks or 'feel' of a PC.

The bundled mac software is so intuititve to use that even my dad can use it - it took me 5 years to convince him to change and now he can't stop raving about how easy his new Macbook is to use.

You can't justify the purchase of a mac to anyone - those that instinctively know that they want a mac will find a justification. Those that don't won't. Their 'value' is intangable and pc fans will justifiably find good reasons why you shouldn't buy one.

But you know you still want one hhmmmmm....:drool:

Do it !! - life's too short to procrastinate. And hell, if you regret it, you can always buy a PC and satisfy yourself you'll be saving money cos it's cheaper...

PS - it's worth being a mac user just for the reaction you get when the spotty little oik in PC world asks if he can help you. Just start off by saying "I've got a mac and..." - Just watch the colour drain from his face:woot:

[glypo]

Thank you for confirming that people that buy Macs are indeed people with more money than sense, are superficial and illogical.

What is it with Mac users and the term PC. Do Apple suddenly sell mainframes, servers and supercomputers? Or do Mac users (and Apple marketing) not realise their machines are in fact Personal Computers? Just because IBM defined the term with a Windows machine, does not make all Macs somehow not PC's.

Choice as well, with Windows or Linux box you have a wealth of hundreds of thousands of completely different styles with hardware options (I can name hundreds of laptop manufacturers for Windows for example, try doing that for Mac) and you can style Windows and Linux much easier than Mac to suit your needs.

So I agree, you really can't justify the cost of a Mac to anyone. Everyone is different, which is good. So in a way I'm glad Mac's exist as it allows me to sort through people who have a sense and grip of reality.

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Glad to have been of assistance!

Don't like reality - it's far too scary.

Just keep on clicking the snooze button on my mac - just so I can see the little heart beat.
It's so reassuring...

[MattADH]

At the end of the day, choosing an Apple laptop compared to a Dell or HP is personal choice. The same opinions viewed on this thread can be applied to choosing a full-size car for example.

There are people out there who wouldnt buy a Lexus if they could get a Toyota that does the same job to the same standard. But then why do others buy a Lexus...

Personal taste is that, personal. Apple have created a demand for their products through adverts and image which clearly has had the desired effect.

[jimmy]

you big tart matt:p
I looked at the 'air' thing which was very nice indeed - but we bought an asus eee 1000H instead since it was a grand less :woot: It's vickys laptop but it's so ace that I've been using it nonstop.

[MattADH]

you big tart matt:p
I looked at the 'air' thing which was very nice indeed - but we bought an asus eee 1000H instead since it was a grand less :woot: It's vickys laptop but it's so ace that I've been using it nonstop.

Now there's a post I can understand.

Jimmy, you know me only too well.
New pit mat for this weekend by the way!

[jimmy]

Does it match your colours this time? Make sure not to get it dirty! :thumbsup:

[MattADH]

It matches my APPLE MAC BOOK PRO, IPHONE and IPOD :p

[jim76]

the I-matt?!

[MattADH]

Now there's an idea.

Just got to create the demand, which could be a problem...

[rowanp25]

i personally like macs but as ppl have said pcs running vista are good as long as your willing to get under the hood a lil! but for out of the box performance a mac with lepoard has the slight advantage as its a bit more zippy. so........... in all respect if your lazy buy a mac!:p
there is other alternatives as well! you could buy an x86 (pc hardware) laptop and a copy of osx for about the same price as a mac book pro then run osx under the osx86 concept thats been around for a few years. reports are a noted improvement in performance over both vista an a natively run mac! or i suppose you could jus run a linux distro as it uses the same kerna as the mac os:eh?:
i own a pc running xp and a laptop running celena both are great and would not change unless you offered me a nice mac pro with 2 xeons and 16 gb ram! i use comps for music, vsti's ect if you wondering about so much ram:D

[lochness42]

As for simple to use. If you took someone that has never seen a PC before and introduced them to OSX and Vista, I expect they will either find them equally easy to use, or maybe even find Vista better. I'm certainly a Linux user but even I own and enjoy Vista very much... Microsoft have done a great job with it.
To this. I think for newbie is PC with any OS one big jungle and it doesn't matter which one.

My friend teached his grandma to work with pc that had Ubuntu installed (she didn't have PC before) and she has no problem with it (so noone can say that Linux is only for nerds or geeks).

Personally I have both Vista (it was on notebook by default) and Linux (Debian and Ubuntu distro). I've got win only because of games and maybe one small amount of specific programs (most programs has great opensource alternative). One negative in terms notebook + linux is here - not all hardware is well supported in all notebooks (some works without problems some not).

[DCM]

Linux is much better than it was, especialy as the installation and setup becomes more automated and a decent GUI.... but like most, I don't need it, I play games and internet, so the Windows route is the holy road

[craigosh]

Lets not forget what people always say Mac is best for - creative suites. Well basically every major film and tv studio actually use Linux for special effects and editting (runs much better on supercomputers) and I think applications like Photoshop and Dreamweaver now run much better on Windows than Mac.


EH!

Finalcut, Shake, Motion, Logic Studio - All Apple software and all used by major Film and TV studios. Sure some may use the odd custom Unix prog for something very very special but only in large hollywood studios. Nearly everyone else uses something like Finalcut, Premiere or Avid (the later two on a mix of windows and mac boxes), nothing special and nothing that needs a super computer!!.

As for the other creative industries you'll find Apple products as the backbone in almost all of them. 3D and Web being the main exceptions. But I know of a few 3D companies who have mac boxes running XP because the software runs better!!

Having worked on both windows and Mac platforms with PS, Illustrator, Indesign and Quark i can honestly say that sure there isnt much in it in terms of speed but the mac boxes have always had it in terms of stability which for me, in the real world of work, is much more important than outright speed.

Dreamweaver and Flash not much in it except the Flash movies run a bit faster on Windows.

[bigboots1302]

simply the best computer in the world. they will not get any viruses and look and perform the best.

[glypo]

Craig - I don't disagree with much of what you said, but I think you misread my post.

I said industry use supercomputers with Linux for special effects. Which you will find they do, rendering some effects (particularly when CGI is involved) takes serious serious power. The applications or the power does not exist for Mac. Of course I totally agree that the public and prosumers don't need supercomputers to edit video, or indeed neither does industry (although they need powerful boxes when they start dealing with production quality material – but certainly not mainframes).

General video editing, for sure stuff like Premier is widely used, particularly on a prosumer level. But as you also say these apps run on Windows or on Mac... which do not give a compelling reason to buy a Mac system over Windows.

As for Mac's being backbone of creative industry, I disagree to an extent. At prosumer level yes, but that's more to do with Macs popularity with the creative type. But Linux really is the backbone of the creative industry in terms of movies and television. 3D and special effects is almost exclusively Linux, I hope you agree there. ILM, Pixar etc etc all use Linux or UNIX machines on large mainframe computers. But even for video editing and video tasks that don't require the computational power, I know of companies in London that have 500+ Linux (CentOS, RHEL and Fedora seem popular, anything Red Hat based I assume) boxes for editing and compilation and the same is repeated all around the world.

I know very little about the graphical design/image manipulation/etc industry. So I don't know what's widely used here, and I don't care much to comment on what I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if Mac's were the norm here however.

Just for my general interest, do you know what kind of Mac boxes that the 3D companies use that you said XP runs better on? In theory it's impossible for XP to run better on a Mac than a normal machine, as Mac is a normal machine. Unless of course the Macs were slightly older when they were running PPC chips rather than x86's, which is basically what I'm thinking maybe 3D software runs better on PPC than x86? Which could explain why I always tend to find video industry running Red Hat based Linux (RH supports PPC as well as X86 and X86_64) so maybe video companies using RH based as they use PPC that maybe works better on 3D? Just a curiosity on my part if you happen to know. Thanks.

[lochness42]

Did i mention about the little apple on the back:woot:
I just noticed that - I've got apple on back of my notebook too (got sticker from Iphone :p). It really confuses people - I was asked if it's Fujitsu-Siemens Apple once :D

Wasn't this thread about laptop and not about special effects in TV (I know stupid question)?

[craigosh]

They are running base Mac Pros with XP pro Sp2 on. They found them to render out a bit quicker, crash less, not bring the whole system down when they do, and they can push 3DS Max harder. All started when the boss of one company that was based with us tried Max on my MBP with XP Pro and was really impressed.

What are the guys in london running on their Unix Boxes? Every editor i've ever met has either used FCP or AVID (the odd one still using premiere), and AVID is far from a prosumer application.

[SlowOne]

They're not the only ones sounding the bell for MS. China's market goes 66%+ to Linux/OpenSource systems, and they will not adopt any US software. India is in the middle of developing a standard for Linux/OpenSource at the expense of MS, and Google, Sony (PS2 and PS3) all use Linux. And up until last December, the Mac OS X system was outselling Vista...

Best get a Mac, it's the only one that can run all the best available operating systems... :thumbsup:

[andys]

Hell, i've not read quite so much nonsense and speculation in ages :)

Right, i've used Mac's and PC's since the 1st Mac colour was introduced, and it was a revelation compared with where windows was. Everything the PC industry has done & does is 'borrowed' from the innovation created at apple. Anyone who has done there homework will know that Bill Gates worked for apple in the early days of Silicon Valley and basically robbed what they were doing when he set up Microsoft ! The only reason Microsoft is huge is that Gates was a clever businessman and was in it for the money, so he licensed his software to all PC vendors, whilst apple wanted to remain creative and retain control over there hardware & software. This is what they still do today, which is why everything just works ! No viruses, no spyware, no nasty windows and 'spit' Vista !

Basically there was a day when the Mac was hugely expensive and underpowered, but we are taking pre-imac here, before Steve Jobs took the lead at apple again. Today the mac is in every way superior to an equivalent PC. In fact if you want a decent graphics / 3d workstation, the MacPro with 2xQuad core Intel CPU's is actually much cheaper than anything that can get anywhere near for similar money ! They are in fact a bargain, which is why they are being used in the TV / animation industry more and more. What do you think they use at Pixar ? (another company set up by Steve Jobs of apple....)

Ok, the laptops are a little more expensive than comparable PC alternatives, but you pay for quality. People on this forum don't as a rule buy cheap crap RC stuff do they, it's just the same with a PC if you are into it and want to get a lot out of it.

Lastly, log onto apple.com, go to the UK store and at the bottom of the page, on the right hand side you can link to the apple refurbished store, I always buy from here, you can get some great bargains, especially on laptops, so take a look.

If you have never tried an apple, you don't know what you are missing, computers should just work and not be an obstacle to getting stuff done, so for that reason alone, i'll always prefer to use my Mac over my PC.

[glypo]

Okay I wasn't going to reply to this thread again, but I have to now. It's amazing what crap you can read online sometimes. Andy I'm sorry, but almost everything you said is incorrect.

Bill Gates robbed Apple software? No! Blimey you could probably get sued for even implying that.Yes everyone knows about Gate's work for Apple in the early days but none of this was connected to Microsoft. Everyone who knows the slightest bit of computer history know that Microsoft bought QDOS and basically re-branded and improved it to become PC-DOS/MS-DOS. Original Mac's worked in a totally different way off a totally different architecture so Gate's couldn't have stolen anything even he wanted to to. But why would you want to if you just purchased your own operating system? (link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS))

“Everything the PC industry has done & does is 'borrowed' from the innovation created at apple” Please see my earlier posts about ignorant people who think Mac's aren't PC's. Then learn some facts. As an Apple user you must be well aware OSX is actually UNIX based. So firstly I'd say that Apple has copied the 1970's UNIX OS. So failure one in your statement. Now lets not forget the X Windows System developed for UNIX and all the subsequent add-ons. I can totally give credit to Apple for the great work they done in 2000/2001 for their composting window manager (Quartz). But there is no doubt in recent years all the great stuff Windows and Mac have based all there cool stuff off opensource compositing software such as Compiz. So once again this company supposedly full of innovation and leading the industry is just working off what it being done. It's not a bad thing, but you can't just outright lie and say Apple are the source of this innovation. (link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compositing_window_manager))

Also how naive is everyone for thinking Mac's are immune to viruses and malware? NOTHING is immune. Sure the majority of malicious software is directed at Windows, but that's simply because of its popularity. You will find that Mac's are actually one of the most vulnerably systems, as the users are lulled into a completely false sense of security – thus they don't have any antivirus software to protect themselves when stuff starts going wrong. So I would urge all Mac users who don't have anti-virus software to get some.

”What do you think they use at Pixar” Think? It's fact - Marionette and PhotoRealistic RenderMan (Rman) that run on Linux and UNIX. Sure, some of the stuff like image design is probably done on Macs as Steve Jobs used to own Pixar a few years ago. But all the animation and rendering is not. Oh by the way, Pixar was set up by George Lucas and not Steve Jobs, who simply purchased the company after it was well established, and sold it some years later. So once again you fail. (link)

As for Mac Pro being cheaper than an equivalent Linux or Windows machine. I have just done some research. As I like to base my statements on facts rather then nonsense. Using the specification of a £1749 machine on apple.com/uk I priced up a machine using the same 2 Xeon processors, same amount of ram, hard disk space and speed, same graphics etc and it came to £743.69, that is £1,000 cheaper than the Mac Pro.. so your argument once again fails. So for £1749 I could get a machine of MUCH greater quality if I wanted to run Linux or Windows.

As much as it may seem, I'm not anti-mac. I'm just totally fed up with the rubbish that spurts from Mac users mouths. You can't post such a condescending post talking about the nonsense in other peoples posts if you can't get the facts right yourself. People have opinions, which is good, and some people prefer Macs, fine. Some people may prefer the way Macs look or feel which is good, their personal preference, but that doesn't mean people should make lies to justify their opinion. Just as someone said above, rationally Macs no economic sense but you can't put a price on what your heart wants.

Now everyone will be relived to read this is genuinely my last post on this thread, or I think my head will explode. I have posted links to all my statements to prove they are indeed fact, as I wouldn't be replying again to go further off-topic just to correct people. I just wish I could write as colourfully as this guy:

http://gizmodo.com/5040593/cranky-windows-guy-apples-iphone-bugs-stopped-me-from-switching-to-a-mac

[markwilliamson2001]

I work in a Windows networking environment daily, and it does its job well (using XP SP3 on client workstations, and server 2003 on our main file and other servers).

From my point of view, XP does its job in terms of being an operating system to run my apps (office, adobe, IE, and mostly s**t educational software!). Through the use of imaging machines for classrooms, it is easy to setup, fairly easy to find solutions to problems (mainly due to its high use in both industry, education, government, and small businesses). Through group policies we can easily lock down the system to prevent malpractice and messing by students. However in terms of a home computer XP and Vista SUCKS compared to Leopard for the following reasons:

1) Machine backup in native Windows is just so shocking and rubbish! You have to use bundled software with the laptop, or shell out extra cash to do this..
2) No native DVD support or DVD burning in Windows, so you have to purchase additional software at extra cost!
3) iTunes actually works without causing your machine to slow to a crawl (like on Windows). I know you can use other apps with your iPod in Windows, (e.g. Winamp).
4) Driver support in Mac is far superior.

Quite often we get teachers and staff coming in and asking what to get for a home computer...

My answer is:
If you want a computer, buy a Dell or HP machine. If you want a GOOD computer, buy an Apple Mac with Leopard OSX on it, and download OpenOffice.org to do office work, or buy MSOffice for Mac if you want to do MS Access.

Personally I am typing this on a HP Laptop running XP (as I can't stand Vista's control panel layout and extreme hardware requirements) mainly as I just use the internet, email, and some typing etc etc. and if I want to do something for work (huh?) at home I know it will work fine without issue.

Just my two cents
M.

[Jonny_H]

Lastly anyone that has trouble with Vista either has a steam powered machine they are trying to run it on, of they're a bit... useless.This is second-hand information, but everyone on the Pro/Engineer users email list reports that benchmarks run slower under Vista than under XP - and most of these people ought to now how to configure a system, or have techies who do. They're also running some pretty serious hardware, as CAD users can't afford to wait for slow machines every time they open an assembly.

We'll certainly hold on to XP for as long as possible in my office...

[SlowOne]

Glypo, if Microsoft are so original, then how come their Windows 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 systems were developed using a license from Apple for the GUI system? The fact that Apple lost the case against MS for taking more than the license allowed does not get away from the fact that almost everything we see on MS systems these days in terms of GUIs emanates from Apple.

Can't argue with the rest of your post as I don't know, but to represent MS as almost independent of Apple's innovations is not the best plan. And, on that note, there is no invention that hasn't relied on something that went before - Bell probably didn't invent the telephone, Gray might have done, but without Faraday neither would have got anywhere near it! :)

And, back on topic, Macs are still the best personal computer. :thumbsup:

[andys]

Okay I wasn't going to reply to this thread again, but I have to now. It's amazing what crap you can read online sometimes. Andy I'm sorry, but almost everything you said is incorrect.

Look, i'm not going to get into anything silly here, I stand by what I said. As for the Bill gates stuff, I was referring to the GUI / mouse etc (I know everyone robbed this from Xerox before you mention it, but apple saw it's potential when no-one else did).

On the cost issue, I quickly looked on scan's website to price up the Xeon chips in the Mac Pro, and the Mac Pro has 2 of these puppies !

Here's the link...

http://www.scan.co.uk/Product.aspx?WebProductID=778002

£534.24 including Vat...each, which is £1068.48 in my book just for the same processors that are in the mac. Now i'm not shopping around here, but I did a while ago for a decent rendering / 3d workstation and like for like, the apple kit is cheaper.

Tom's hardare (good site if you don't know it) did a comparison, trying to build a machine to kind of Mac Pro spec, bearing in mind you would need to build this yourself and they went for as cheap gear as possible, here's the link.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/apple-mac-leopard-windows-vista,1985-2.html

Macs at Pixar anyone ?

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2002/05/10.12.shtml

Now i'm not anti PC, i've used both platforms from way back, so I speak from experience and my opinion is based on user experience. Mac's are the way forward for anyone wanting a computer / software that just works without needed an IT degree.

Now I too will say no more, this is an RC forum after all :)

Glypo, i'm assuming you specced up the Intel Core 2 Quads (not the Quad Xeons) as to the best of my knowledge these are not configurable in a dual CPU system ?
On the other hand, if i'm wrong, please post a link to where I can get my amazingly cheap system !

Hell the guy who started this thread went for a Mac Laptop anyway, so this is pretty pointless :)

[Shadow]

ive ran out of popcorn. better get some more into the microwave.

This thread its as good as asking which is better?

black better or white?

AE or Losi?

Ford or Opel?

I've used macs since the original Apple II. Ive used all incarnation of the the Mac OS 7, 8, 9 and now X

Ive used all sorts of "backyard make your own frankenstein" PCs to High end Branded PCs such as Dell, Toshiba, HP etc etc with Windows 95, 98, NT, 2000, XP, Vista

Heck, Ive even own Mac Clones! (who remember the days of Power Computing and UMAX Macs!!!?? :D )

The problem with answering the argument of "which is better" is that there are people here who grew up with computing in the 80s and very early nineties. Macs and PCs were very very different back then and each played a specific role in the role of a "computer". These people (me included) will tell you a very different story comparing to new kids on the block who are just getting into computers now.

These days, my personal opinion is that Gates and Jobs are sleeping in the same bed together. Just one wears the cool black and jeans and appeal to the "creative types", the other one has to make sure he is the biggest geek coming out of Porkys.

Blame it on Global Capitalisation if you want... the end game is to capture BOTH sides.

some stuff works better than on windows.
some stuff works better on macs. it all depends on the software and how well it plays with the hardware.

oh. and your budget.

food for thought.

[andys]

Heyup Shadow.

I too had a Umax clone once upon a time, dark days indeed ! It died a horrible death, never worked properly and ultimately found it's way back to my supplier, to be swapped for the 'real deal' ;)

[SlowOne]

Good points, everyone. I'd like to add just one as it is about the money...

A Mac will last many years as it is much easier to upgrade - I've only had three since 1987 - and every software update is backwards compatible. Compared to friends and colleagues, I've paid more for my hardware and software, but far, far less frequently. On value-for-money over a ten-year period, it's hard to beat a Mac. :)

[benknight13]

i really like mac laptops i ate miine it tase off apple:thumbsup:

[Lee]

Can the timing software used at nationals be used on the mac ?

Is it called drivernet or something?

[terry.sc]

Glypo, I've never known so much hatred towards a box of electronics. What's so special about Apple?
I'm sure if someone asked about buying an Audi TT I'm sure we wouldn't have to put up with trolling about them being overpriced junk and the people who buy them are idiots because it's just the same components as a Skoda Octavia RS in an overpriced metal box.

As you've now stated your piece but aren't prepared to back them up by replying again I'll just correct your FUD for you.:thumbsup:
And the software - how much of a mug do you have to be to buy OSX?!?! It's UNIX based... and people pay for it lol. It's honestly a source of much amusement to me. If you want a UNIX like system, you can download one of many Linux distros for free, legitimately, and find unlike OSX they are decent too.Nope, if you want the BSD/Unix core that is underneath OSX it's an open source OS called Darwin and is available as a free download from Apple (http://www.opensource.apple.com/projects/darwin/6.0/release.html) Being open source they even provide the source code (http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/). I presume you also count all those companies that choose Red Hat Linux as mugs for paying for their OS as well. Why do businesses pay for Red Hat instead of any of the free Linux you can find? Because they expect support that will deal with their problem when they want it and to get that service they pay for it. Works out more expensive than OSX as well.;)
Mac OSX comes free with every Mac, the only time you will have to pay for it is when you want to upgrade the OS to the next version, which also includes a full set of the great iLife suite, developer tools, etc. Sure I could download a Linux OS, but the reason I prefer OSX is the user interface, not because it's Unix. The last paid for upgrade of OSX was two and a half years ago and each OSX upgrade usually adds many more features and a significant speed boost each time.

I love people that think Mac's are immune to viruses. Just as my mate did, until I checked his system. Nothing is immune to malware... sure most of it is written for Windows based systems but that doesn't mean all.Name one of these viruses, and did you use Intego Virusbarrier or ClamXav to remove them? Considering how opinionated you are on the subject how many weeks/months/years experience have you had of OSX?

The truth about OSX viruses. Since 1984 until 2001 there were around 60 viruses for the mac OS, each virus being killed off with every system update. Since 2001 and the release of OSX there has been one trojan found called Leap-A. For it to work you had to either download a file called latestpics.tgz or accept it being sent over IM, then expand the compressed file, then run it and type in an admin password so it can run. A bit of a giveaway if you click on a picture and it asks for your admin password. It then sent itself to anyone on your local network (so not the internet) using one specific version of OSX and one specific version of iChat (any older or newer versions don't give it access) and due to a bug in the trojan all it did was break the four most recent applications, but only those you have installed by drag and drop. It could not access any part of the system, nor any of the original Apple applications installed. Since then there has been no other trojans, nor has there ever been any viruses, spyware, malware, etc. on Mac OSX.
There are a couple of anti-virus programs for OSX, their main purpose is to prevent you forwarding any Windows viruses to others.
It's just like the whole iPod thing. Take a second to compare and you will find players with much better sound quality (Creative, Sony, Toshiba, SanDisk etc) and better video support... yet it seems everyone has iPods because it's the 'cool' thing to have.Compare the ease of use of an iPod with any of the others, the one thing Apple does well is the user interface which for 99% of people is what matters, not the fact that a particular make has a bit better sound quality when you are going to be listening to it on the bus. If sound quality is a consideration you won't be playing mp3s. The iPhone again was considered underspecified compared with other smartphones, yet it has outsold all Windows Mobile phones put together purely because of the great interface. I'm sure the marketing has helped;)
What is it with Mac users and the term PC. Do Apple suddenly sell mainframes, servers and supercomputers? Or do Mac users (and Apple marketing) not realise their machines are in fact Personal Computers? Just because IBM defined the term with a Windows machine, does not make all Macs somehow not PC's.Yes, Apple sell Xserve servers and SystemX is an Apple Supercomputer at Virginia Tech, Mach 5 is an Apple Supercomputer used by the US military. They don't do mainframes though.:D Conversely what is it with Windows/Linux users and the term PC, they use the term to define their computers as an IBM Compatible and don't recognise a Mac as a PC.

Choice as well, with Windows or Linux box you have a wealth of hundreds of thousands of completely different styles with hardware options (I can name hundreds of laptop manufacturers for Windows for example, try doing that for Mac) and you can style Windows and Linux much easier than Mac to suit your needs.Yet 9 out of 10 Windows PCs will still be bought from a small selection at PC World or similar, and never upgraded. Naming hundreds of manufacturers is fine, but if the laptops are all same as everyone else's you are only looking at a hundred different boxes the components are in. Naming hundreds of laptop manufacturers as an example of choice is contradictory to stating the Macbook is just the same as the others but more expensive.


As for Mac's being backbone of creative industry, I disagree to an extent. But Linux really is the backbone of the creative industry in terms of movies and television. 3D and special effects is almost exclusively Linux, I hope you agree there.Twentieth Century Fox, Warner Brothers and Columbia Pictures are Final Cut Studio based for their editing and effects, so using Macs. Linux is quite often used for their render farms and servers. Dreamworks is the only studio that uses Linux extensively. The BBC uses Final Cut studio.
Pixar etc etc all use Linux Bad choice there;)
I know very little about the graphical design/image manipulation/etc industry. So I don't know what's widely used here, and I don't care much to comment on what I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if Mac's were the norm here however.Macs are the norm and for very good reason. They have much more accurate colour management (what you see on screen is what comes out of the printer) and as the Quartz graphics engine in OSX is pdf based it guarantees the layout on the screen is what is printed. Once designed the final pages can be saved as a pdf file that can be sent to the printer and it will print with exactly the same layout on the page, right down to text spacing.

Unless of course the Macs were slightly older when they were running PPC chips rather than x86's, which is basically what I'm thinking maybe 3D software runs better on PPC than x86? Apple abandoned PPC because the chips couldn't keep up with the performance of x86's. To show the difference the first x86 Mac ran up to 4 times faster than the previous PPC Mac, but general computing requires the processors to perform well in many areas.
The PPC chips RISC architecture and AltiVec instruction set does speed up 3D rendering, especially texture mapping, which makes them useful for 3D work.

As for Mac Pro being cheaper than an equivalent Linux or Windows machine. I have just done some research. As I like to base my statements on facts rather then nonsense. Using the specification of a £1749 machine on apple.com/uk I priced up a machine using the same 2 Xeon processors, same amount of ram, hard disk space and speed, same graphics etc and it came to £743.69, that is £1,000 cheaper than the Mac Pro.I would also like to know where you get the twin quad core X5482 Xeons, Firewire 800 ports, optical digital audio in/out, gigabit ethernet, etc. for much less than an Apple machine.


2) No native DVD support or DVD burning in Windows, so you have to purchase additional software at extra cost!
4) Driver support in Mac is far superior.
It amazes me that even Windows Vista can't play DVDs out of the box. Compare this with OSX which includes a DVD player with a separate remote control. With the included iLife software you can create your own professional quality DVDs, and you can burn them directly from OSX.
The big reason I like OSX is that I can buy a camera, scanner, printer, etc., plug it in and it will be recognised and work without needing any drivers to be installed.

[andys]

Well Terry, I reckon that just about sums it up :)
Nice one fella.

[Richard Lowe]

It amazes me that even Windows Vista can't play DVDs out of the box.
Of course it can! XP didn't include a DVD decoder plugin but Vista has it as standard along with the Media Centre interface in Home Premium ;)

[SlowOne]

My colleague can't - he bought a simple unit including Home Basic to keep the costs down, and DVDs are a foreign object to his PC. He was not happy to discover that when you buy Windows Vista, there are four versions and he was sold a pup.

On the other hand, another colleague who bought a Mac came into the office the other day with a DVD of his holiday fun at an off-road track. There's one version of Mac OS X, it contains everything, and you get iLife (iTunes, iPhoto, DVD, etc.) thrown in. He's a very happy bunny.

Terry speaks wise words, to be heeded... :thumbsup:

[frogger]

I can't believe this thread is still going. It has now officially transcended the absolute limits of sadness :thumbsup:

PC's rule! :D

[Richard Lowe]

Your friend should have looked into what he was buying before spending his money ;)

Would you rather Microsoft only release Vista Ultimate and force everyone to pay full whack, or release a few versions so people who don't need certain features dont have to pay for them?

Tell your friend to install FFD show (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow) or Vista Codec Pack (http://shark007.net/), both free :)

[OldTimer]

Just got one of these, ideal for surfing around, msn, checking email and a bargain at £180 :thumbsup: just got to find out if the race info at nationals on wifi, is just sent via a web server or some software needs installing.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jMnEbk4OL._SS400_.jpg

And it look's very nice in blue to :woot:

[rowanp25]

so...........i guess to sum up......... everyone has their own views on whats the best system/ coolest ect! all this argument about mac pc........well if you look at it Pc= personal computer so whatever you bought its to your personal requirements or sold as that if you went to pc world lol:p im personally moving over to linux mint (ubuntu based) there is a lot of heartache when certain drivers still need properly configuring (namely my emu 0404) but apart from that im really enjoying the switch over from a long stint with xp. well see if it sticks! i use my comp for music mainly (so intergrated ubuntu studio) and a few bits of graphics (must admit it performs better overall) anyway as this thread was started about laptops id say 1, shopping on the high street go to the apple centre n buy the pretty mac book 2, if you shop online go look for rain systems as their laptops are just works of art:drool:

[SlowOne]

Your friend should have looked into what he was buying before spending his money ;)

Would you rather Microsoft only release Vista Ultimate and force everyone to pay full whack, or release a few versions so people who don't need certain features dont have to pay for them?

Tell your friend to install FFD show (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow) or Vista Codec Pack (http://shark007.net/), both free :)OR, as I said to him, buy a Mac, where everything you need in a brand new operating system costs just £80, and no extras required!! :D :D

If Apple can do a complete OS for £80, including iLife and all the drivers, DVD makers, etc, just how much of a rip-off is Vista Ultimate at £230...

[OldTimer]

Umm thats odd i can buy Vista Ultimate for £111 or Home Prem for £65

[SlowOne]

Sorry, quoted MS price from its website to compare to the Mac. So, only cut-down versions available for prices comparable to a complete Mac OS system! :D :D :D

(Think maybe I've done this one to death. Gets coat and leaves thread.... ;))

[OldTimer]

Sorry, quoted MS price from its website to compare to the Mac. So, only cut-down versions available for prices comparable to a complete Mac OS system! :D :D :D

(Think maybe I've done this one to death. Gets coat and leaves thread.... ;))

No that's the price for the full versions lol :p

[terry.sc]

Umm thats odd i can buy Vista Ultimate for £111 or Home Prem for £65Heck I can buy it a fair bit cheaper than that if I buy a stick of memory at the same time;) Doesn't mean there's any technical support with them though.

The point is 9 out of 10 copies will be bought at PCWorld or similar stores, where OSX Leopard (the full OS plus the iLife suite, Apache server, developer tools, etc, etc) is sold for £74 (http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1835733375.122021634 4@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccedadefdehldgkcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=139716&category_oid=), or the 5 user pack for £130. Vista full version home basic is £139 (http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1155629632.122021797 5@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccedadefdehldgkcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=340078&category_oid=), the upgrade version that needs a copy of XP on the disc so it can install(not much good on a blank hard drive) is £69 (http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1155629632.122021797 5@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccedadefdehldgkcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=540221&category_oid=), almost the price of the full version of OSX. The full on Vista Ultimate (with everything equivalent to OSX Leopard) is £229 (http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1155629632.122021797 5@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccedadefdehldgkcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=540743&category_oid=)

From experience a Mac (or goodOS (http://www.thinkgos.com/)) would be a more suitable computer for the majority of general computer users out there who just see their PC in the same way they see their TV, DVD Player, etc, as something that's just supposed to work and not something that needs regular maintenance to keep running fine. It also amazes me how many people go on the internet by firing up IE, waiting for msn.com to load then type the web address they want into the live search box.:woot:
And of course (for those using either Mac or Windows) those who don't make any backups at all then ask if I can get their holiday/kids birthday photos and videos off a crashed hard drive.:mad:

[jono83]

lol i was in my local pcworld with a friend who was buying a mac book pro and the sales guy sais he loved his macs and knew all bout the products they sell. so we sat down to pay for the mac and then he tried to sell us ilife which is already included in the box !! what the f*&k was he talking about and then asked me if i was gonna do the hack so i could run vista on it !! why would you wanna run vista on a mac i really wanted to punch the guy in the face .

[OldTimer]

Heck I can buy it a fair bit cheaper than that if I buy a stick of memory at the same time;) Doesn't mean there's any technical support with them though.

The point is 9 out of 10 copies will be bought at PCWorld or similar stores, where OSX Leopard (the full OS plus the iLife suite, Apache server, developer tools, etc, etc) is sold for £74 (http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1835733375.122021634 4@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccedadefdehldgkcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=139716&category_oid=), or the 5 user pack for £130. Vista full version home basic is £139 (http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1155629632.122021797 5@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccedadefdehldgkcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=340078&category_oid=), the upgrade version that needs a copy of XP on the disc so it can install(not much good on a blank hard drive) is £69 (http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1155629632.122021797 5@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccedadefdehldgkcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=540221&category_oid=), almost the price of the full version of OSX. The full on Vista Ultimate (with everything equivalent to OSX Leopard) is £229 (http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1155629632.122021797 5@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccedadefdehldgkcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=540743&category_oid=)

From experience a Mac (or goodOS (http://www.thinkgos.com/)) would be a more suitable computer for the majority of general computer users out there who just see their PC in the same way they see their TV, DVD Player, etc, as something that's just supposed to work and not something that needs regular maintenance to keep running fine. It also amazes me how many people go on the internet by firing up IE, waiting for msn.com to load then type the web address they want into the live search box.:woot:
And of course (for those using either Mac or Windows) those who don't make any backups at all then ask if I can get their holiday/kids birthday photos and videos off a crashed hard drive.:mad:

And it goes on and on and on lol, some people like mac's some like pc's and people will allows defend there choice of OS, a bit like the best make of speedo really:D

[Lee]

The Ashley Virus is spreading.:woot:

[Southwell]

I don't like either OS. We had a mac to test and when i tried to convert a video for dvd the system froze for 5 hours before i could do anything else, the equivelent PC worked fine. Vista is also crap, i setup an automated security deployment server and there are several updates which disable any driver not authorised by Microsoft, whether you want it to or not! Both systems have flaws, and pretty big ones at that, go to Linux :p

[jono83]

have any of used unbuntu ? it a complete open source os

[rowanp25]

im currently using mint elyssa which is a linux based distro! oh n the ubuntu studio theme cos its pretty:D even got my emu 0404 working which is an acheivement:thumbsup:

[glypo]

Okay I said I wouldn't reply - and with good reason. Look at the nonsense above about Macs. But this post isn't Mac based.

Anyway on the Linux subject, I think Ubuntu is a little overrated. I'm glad that one Linux distribution is finally having a big following in dekstop market, but in my opinion the Red Hat based distributions are much better. My favourite by far if Fedora.

http://fedoraproject.org/

Fedora 10 comes out end of next month and will be even better than the great Fedora 9. The Fedora website may not be as pretty as the Ubuntu website but the distribution is much better. Fedora is the best desktop OS out there in my opinion.