Legalise Lipos

[The race controller]

BRCA AGM is coming up. How about legalising Lipos ? (Not just tenth off road either.)

[burgie]

there has been lots of threads and discussions on this very topic....not much point in starting a new one.

[The race controller]

there has been lots of threads and discussions on this very topic....not much point in starting a new one.

I tried to search for same but got loads of lipo stuff but none to put it to the AGM for legalising.

[Chrislong]

Hi Roger,
I have sent a proposal to Charlie Fraser, and Jonathan Clark has used the proposal to re-write the rules in the handbook in preparation.

All we need now is attendance at the AGM in order to get the votes. Im glad you are supporting them, personally I don't want to use cells again - just Lipo's now.

Are you attending the BRCA AGM?

Chris

[The race controller]

Hi Roger,
I have sent a proposal to Charlie Fraser, and Jonathan Clark has used the proposal to re-write the rules in the handbook in preparation.

All we need now is attendance at the AGM in order to get the votes. Im glad you are supporting them, personally I don't want to use cells again - just Lipo's now.

Are you attending the BRCA AGM?

Chris
Why ? is the AGM being held in Radcliffe ?

[Chrislong]

:eh?: No

[terry.sc]

Why ? is the AGM being held in Radcliffe ?
The point is that you can sit there and say as often as you want that you want lipo to be legal, but unless people go to the AGM and more people vote for them than vote against them it's never going to happen.

If you don't go to the AGM and vote, and lipos aren't made legal you can't complain about the decision.

[The race controller]

The point is that you can sit there and say as often as you want that you want lipo to be legal, but unless people go to the AGM and more people vote for them than vote against them it's never going to happen.

If you don't go to the AGM and vote, and lipos aren't made legal you can't complain about the decision.

Well Terry, of the AGM's I have attended all the talk is about Nationals.
That, is not why I do all the running around at Bury.
That bloke that turns up to race at Bury is the bloke I do it for and he wants to run Lipo's.

[mole2k]

If it's just club racing then there has never been anything stopping you running lipo's. The rules only apply to brca affiliated events hence why they talk about the nationals at the AGM's as they are the only events offically affected by it. (not sure if regionals are allowed to modify the rules as they see fit or not)

[neiloliver]

There is of course more to it than just "legalise them", a full set of construction rules are required regarding voltage, capacity, cell type, casing type, dimensions, safety tests etc etc... otherwise any sort of lithium ion polymer cell configuration could be used.. to do all of this is a lot of work. it is not an enviable task!

N

[terry.sc]

Well Terry, of the AGM's I have attended all the talk is about Nationals.
That, is not why I do all the running around at Bury.
That bloke that turns up to race at Bury is the bloke I do it for and he wants to run Lipo's.As has been said if someone wants to run lipos then it's up to the club to decide whether to let him, nothing to do with the BRCA rules at all which are written specifically for national meetings. It's down to the individual clubs whether they use the same rules or not.
Touring cars already use lipos in the ProStock class and the bikes have been using soft cased ones for years in their national meetings.

There's already a set of BRCA construction rules regarding lipos and even an Electric Board list of approved hard case lipos here (http://www.centralbooking.org/cbs/index.php?view=article&catid=45%3Abrca-rules&id=136%3Atc-section-eb-2008-lipo-list-updated-210708&option=com_content&Itemid=109)

[cjm_2008]

I ran at this years 2nd BRCA welsh regional back in june.

it was great - except that, even though I qualified 5th overall, I had to start at the back of the grid, in the lowest final, racing against the kids.

nothing wrong with that, at the end of the day we all love lapping 7 year olds (!!!!)... but it was all due to the fact I was running Lipo cells.

obviously I won the final. but I couldn't get a trophy because I was running Lipo.

I'd like to run a full national campaign next year - it's been an ambition of mine since I was 14 - but I'm buggered if I'm going to go out and buy six+ sets of expensive and outdated nimh cell packs which are useless after 40 race cycles :)

[Gaz_Stanton]

I but I'm buggered if I'm going to go out and buy six+ sets of expensive and outdated nimh cell packs which are useless after 40 race cycles :)

You definitely don't need that many! I've done the Nationals and Euros [6 days solid of 6 runs a day] this year, both classes, on just 3 packs of Neil's Stormforce 4500 cells. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Northy]

(not sure if regionals are allowed to modify the rules as they see fit or not)

There are very few rules that regional championships can alter, and running non BRCA homologated cells and motors is not one of them.

G

[Jonesy]

You definitely don't need that many! I've done the Nationals and Euros [6 days solid of 6 runs a day] this year, both classes, on just 3 packs of Neil's Stormforce 4500 cells. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I'll second that one!! Until I recently bought a pack of Stormforce from Neil I've been running on 3 set's of 4500 from Glyn Ward all year!

[ben]

Same here. I bought 4 packs but a cell went down on one pack. So have just ended up using 2 or 3 packs at each national :thumbsup:

[Kopite]

me too, ran 4 packs all year for both classes.

hey, with LiPo, i'd only need 1 pack:drool:

[terry.sc]

I'm buggered if I'm going to go out and buy six+ sets of expensive and outdated nimh cell packs which are useless after 40 race cycles :)
1) Those cells that destroyed themselves have effectively been banned from racing, so you wouldn't be using them.
2)As others have said you don't need 'one run' packs any more.

But if you want lipos I hope you'll be at the AGM voting for them:thumbsup:

[Bungleaio]

Where and when is it?

[stegger]

It's on the 26th October, but unsure where.

[_sleigh_]

Pretty sure it's in Stoke-on-Trent (same place as last year)

[bigred5765]

does anyone have the full address please?

[_sleigh_]

Thistley Hough High School,
Newcastle Lane,
Penkhull,
Stoke-on-Trent,
ST4 5JJ.

[bigred5765]

cheers phill.

[stegger]

So who's coming to the AGM on sunday ? Myself and kecky will be there:D Do you have to take your brca membership card to prove you are a MEMBER ? :cry::woot:

[c0sie]

Cant go to the AGM, but crossing all my fingers, toes, dangly bits that LiPo's are allowed in 2009 onwards.

[stegger]

If anybody from ellesmere port or chester needs a lift i have 3 seats left so save your fuel ;) the company is paying:woot:

[mobile chicane]

I converted early as I was fed up of using voodo to make my cells work.

I initialy encounterd some resistance at my local club but after some discussion we now allow lipos and a lot of the club racers use them .

[_sleigh_]

So who's coming to the AGM on sunday ? Myself and kecky will be there:D Do you have to take your brca membership card to prove you are a MEMBER ? :cry::woot:

Good question, I'd say it'd worth taking with you.

[stegger]

Thought i would ask the question seeing i'm an AGM virgin:blush:

[Answer-RC-Pete]

Does anyone know if there has been anything tabled to discuss electric 1/8th?

Pete

[frogger]

:o just a short 3.5hr drive for me :(

When oh when are we going to see online voting!?

[Lee]

So who's coming to the AGM on sunday ? Myself and kecky will be there:D Do you have to take your brca membership card to prove you are a MEMBER ? :cry::woot:


You and Kecky are definately "members" :thumbsup:

[stegger]

You and Kecky are definately "members" :thumbsup:
Can't believe it took you 40 min to come out with that:rolleyes::p

[Lee]

Some of us have to work, we can't sit on oople all day :p

[stegger]

That's the beauty of having a 3G card in my laptop :thumbsup: sitting in knutsford services southbound at the moment waiting for tech to turn up :p

[c0sie]

I think the reason that 'they' dont allow online voting is that there is no room for discussion or for any one to be able to put their opinions across in that fashion.

Atleast at the AGM you are all able to stand up and say your peace, and then either get shot down in a ball of flames or be responsible for some amazing new rule that is voted in :)

[Chrislong]

I am suprised nobody has asked, and nobody in attendance has updated already but here goes:

The rule on Lipo got passed by the members for use at all sanctioned events from 1st April 2008. The rule in the handbook does not need to go into detail like the proposal did and all that was changed is any mention of cells, cell type etc has been removed, and the wording changed to "Car will be driven by a nominal voltage of no more than 7.4v".

The EB has been asked to compile a list of Lipo's, which is going to be done, but firstly they will take care of the spec - which will be done to match whatever Efra decide next week at their AGM. (The BRCA & Efra should have consistency on rules like this).

The Lipo list will be made available on www.brca.org as soon as possible, and will be kept live until the cutoff for Lipo submission. So any of us can view it before making a purchase and see what the current list shows. I highly recommend anybody wanting Lipo to wait for this, and use it.

Initially we think that no current saddle packs will be made legal due to their size. This is unfortunate, but the manufacturer may already be dealing with it - like I said, watch www.brca.org. This only means for regional/national, and anybody who has already got packs will still be able to use them at club level just as they are doing now.

Chris

[c0sie]

Initially we think that no current saddle packs will be made legal due to their size. This is unfortunate

Damn shizzle its unfortunate!! lol
But nevertheless its a win for progression that LiPo's have been given the thumbs up :)

[jim76]

what's the problem with their size? that rules out most 4wd chassis straight away then unless manufacturers can get new size cells out in the next few months?

going to be a lot of pissed off trakpower owners out there!

[peetbee]

what's the problem with their size? that rules out most 4wd chassis straight away then unless manufacturers can get new size cells out in the next few months?

going to be a lot of pissed off trakpower owners out there!

Does seem strange to limit the physical size, when it's the capacity that's the important aspect.

[David Church]

I am glad to see this has passed!!!!

I am sure the BRCA have their reasons for the rules they put in place. And I am sure cell manufactures will come up with legal cells.

[mark christopher]

does seem odd thay saddles are out there and the rules are not adjusted to cater for whats allready done??? its only a few mm difference after all.

[Southwell]

So we're gonna have to buy lipo AND NIMH????

[Chrislong]

We did try to say about not having any dimensions, but there has to be. Nothing is definate until after the Efra AGM, so just hold on to your horses guys. It'll all be made clear.

The BRCA are there to represent us, and they do that well, so do give them chance please - if they do something it is for good reason.

The important thing is that the gears are in motion now. :thumbsup:

Also, the 7.4v max wording is done so any future technologies that may come can also be looked at and an EB list done for those also, such as Lithium-ion or whatever else. Great idea to make it like this! ;)

[The Hoff]

So i will not be able to use the trakpower saddles i have in my b44 next year ?.

[Chrislong]

So i will not be able to use the trakpower saddles i have in my b44 next year ?.

Nothing is definate as yet, just keep an eye out for further news.

[DaveG28]

When is the EFRA AGM?

[MattW]

EFRA AGM is this coming Saturday.

Chris, what was stated as being the "cut off date" for submissions of LiPo's??

[JCJC]

Please, what are the dimensions or where can they be found. (I guess the why is another question). Great news on the change of wording, but would like to run saddles in the 4WD along side the stick in the 2. (are TC all stick?)

[Chrislong]

JCJC, did you read my posts? Waiting for Efra AGM for rules.. the mention about saddles is not definate, only a possibility until all is made clear.

Hi Matt, I can't remember. Id presume it'd be same as with Nimhs which was 31st December cutoff with list release January - but I didn't make a note of that, don't rely on my memory.

There was a mention of the list being redone 6monthly rather than annually.

It'll all be made clear in the week after the Efra agm.

[Bungleaio]

It's great news that Lipo is being allowed, but I hope they do allow the saddles to be used, afterall the trak power 3200's are only the same as the sticks but in separate cases.

[JCJC]

JCJC, did you read my posts? Waiting for Efra AGM for rules.. the mention about saddles is not definate, only a possibility until all is made clear.

Yes I did read your posts, I do see this is still in flux, I do understand EFRA etc, and I worry that I can/cannot use saddles...........

Found the guideline on BRCA site, http://www.brca.org/BRCA/elecboard/regs/2008%20Guidlines%20&%20Rules%20for%20Lipo%20for%20Websitepdf.pdf

Its going well, lets see what EFRA brings.

[Body Paint]

Hi Matt, I can't remember. Id presume it'd be same as with Nimhs which was 31st December cutoff with list release January - but I didn't make a note of that, don't rely on my memory.



I think PW said that this would be something for the EB to discuss after the EFRA agm. He suggested that he would be happy to run monthly updates UNTIL 1st April, when the list would get frozen.

I think it is a shame that we didn't get our say on the size of batteries, and yes I came out of the meeting a little disapointed, but, after some reflection, I'm sure PW and the rest of the UK EB will make the best decissions to suit our sport and to best suit the manufacturers.

Remember that though the UK has a boyant R/C community we are just a drop in the ocean of what is a larger European racing scene, it is highly unlikely that manufacturers will make a battery specifically to suit our rules, but if the EFRA (european governing body) see fit to make a set of it's own rules then there is bound to be a good supply of packs to suit the EFRA rules.

As I say I am sure the BRCA will do what is best for everyone. At the end of the day we put these people there to represent us we should have faith in them.

[mark christopher]

the problem is with dimensions is the stick pack has been taken as the "standard" size, two saddle packs have two extra ends of cases to fit in which makes them slightly longer than a stick, the cells inside are the same/smaller

[stegger]

Hi Matt, I can't remember. Id presume it'd be same as with Nimhs which was 31st December cutoff with list release January - but I didn't make a note of that, don't rely on my memory.

.
Chris, i think paul worsley said they may bring the date forward( earlier in december) so the list can go up from the 1st of january. That's from memory also:cry::p

[Chrislong]

Hey Ste, (good to meet you at long last!!)
I think best bet, is for us wait for the BRCA.org announcement/update - I wouldn't put money on any answer until then. :lol:

[SHY]

http://www.efra.ws/news/executive001.html

Here you'll find agendas, proposals etc... I highly recommend actually reading through the proposals!

Looks like we're most likely getting LiPos at least! :thumbsup:

@Mark: Still happy about leaving the wording of the BRCA proposal to your "boffins"? ;) I prefer my proposal :D

[Body Paint]

Hey Ste, (good to meet you at long last!!)
I think best bet, is for us wait for the BRCA.org announcement/update - I wouldn't put money on any answer until then. :lol:

Agreed! Its all IFS and MAYBES at the minute, sit back and wait for some news.

PW promised that he would get a list of 2009 race legal batteries up as soon as he had all the information available.

My guess would be 3 to 4 weeks, but that's just a guess.

[Chrislong]

The only thing we can count on, is something is going to change & that the BRCA are representing us very well in making the right decision, so have faith and patience.

Also, regardless of this, the current Nimh list will still be valid in 2009plus any new Nimh cells which we may see, if any.

[DCM]

PW promised that he would get a list of 2009 race legal batteries up as soon as he had all the information available.

My guess would be 3 to 4 weeks, but that's just a guess.

considering there is alreadt a list of homologated cells, I can only see a complete and utter cock up that will make these illegal....

[losixxx]

considering there is alreadt a list of homologated cells, I can only see a complete and utter cock up that will make these illegal....

there isnt actually a homologated EB list!

[Chrislong]

That list which the support class at TC's use is not an official EB list, it was drawn up by Paul Worsley independently at the request from that section - but isn't EB.

I agree though, it'll take a complete and utter cock up to make these illegal now. But I wouldn't presume that the TC list will be the start of it, and I wouldn;t recommend anyone to check it now, just wait for the outcome of Efra and the actual list to start. Not long now.

[Bungleaio]

The maximum case size is as follows: -
Length: 139.0mm.
Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).
Saddle-Pack cells are allowed, but must comply with the above dimensions. Saddle-Pack cells must have a combined dimension of 139.0mm max when placed end to end.


If this is how it gets passes it will mean;

Trakpowers 3200 20c saddles are 47x22x71 so end to end they'll be 142mm and therefore illegal. Where as the trakpower 4900 30c stick pack (a superior battery with more punch/runtime) which measures 46x23x137 is completely legal.

Nice

[c0sie]

Oh, thats gonna be wonderful, having to replace working LiPo's (saddle) cos they wont fit the new rules. :'(

[eda]

Can ayone actually explain why size is an issue?

[mark christopher]

does seem odd thay saddles are out there and the rules are not adjusted to cater for whats allready done??? its only a few mm difference after all.

If this is how it gets passes it will mean;

Trakpowers 3200 20c saddles are 47x22x71 so end to end they'll be 142mm and therefore illegal. Where as the trakpower 4900 30c stick pack (a superior battery with more punch/runtime) which measures 46x23x137 is completely legal.

Nice


thats what i mean, surely they will see common sence and allow another 3 or 4mm. as i have said thats the thickness of two extra case ends

im sure my saddles have a roar aproved decal on them, so lets hope thay take note and follow the world standard sizes
(just checked and the 3200 and 4800 saddles are in fact roar aproved)

fingers crossed the eb guys look after us and show the uk/eb leads they way!!

[bigred5765]

i think Paul hinted that the dimensions were there so that little Johnny's dad that buys him a b4 rtr or b44 to start racing doesn't have to take a dremmel to his new car to make them fit,

[mark christopher]

If this is how it gets passes it will mean;

Trakpowers 3200 20c saddles are 47x22x71 so end to end they'll be 142mm and therefore illegal. Where as the trakpower 4900 30c stick pack (a superior battery with more punch/runtime) which measures 46x23x137 is completely legal.

Nice
it only needs some one with a bit of common sence to propse an amendment to ad 4mm then job done

or sipmly a new dimension could be adde just for saddle pack, after all a nimh pack 6 side by side and heat shrunk would be shorter than a 3 x 3 saddle pack fully heat shrunk

[mark christopher]

i think Paul hinted that the dimensions were there so that little Johnny's dad that buys him a b4 rtr or b44 to start racing doesn't have to take a dremmel to his new car to make them fit,
then i have to say thats not factually correct you can fit a saddle nose to tail in a b4 with no modification, there are pictures on oople of it and i dont think you have to alter a b44 to make the saddles fit

[peetbee]

thats what i mean, surely they will see common sence and allow another 3 or 4mm. as i have said thats the thickness of two extra case ends

I wonder if I can dremel off enough of my cases to make my 4800 saddles comply with those measurements :woot::wtf:

[bigred5765]

mark if your so worried, why didn't you turn up at the agm,I'm sure they will look at it from all points of view,but i do kinda agree you shouldn't have to take out your dremmel to make them fit in your car (saddle pack style), and i think that any saddle packs that fit in now with no mod, will probably get through any ways as long as there put forward.

[losixxx]

thats what i mean, surely they will see common sence and allow another 3 or 4mm.



cells were taken off this years nimhs list for far less!

[RLGfx]

erm... would i be correct in saying that the cells are actually inside a hard case (hence the term hard-cased LiPo), therefore the cells themselves meet the dimensions? there's a spanner in the works for you.... :p

[Bungleaio]

I wonder if I can dremel off enough of my cases to make my 4800 saddles comply with those measurements :woot::wtf:

They are actually shorter than the 3200's by 1mm, their dims are 70Lx47Wx30H. you might be able to take the 0.5mm of the lenght of each cell but taking 5mm off the hight may be pushing it a little

[Kecky]

Personaaly i've had no problem fitting Trakpower 3200 saddle packs in my BJ4WE, or my B4, without modifying the car the the Lipo pack :thumbsup:

[DCM]

not being funy, but surely the obvious one is to have two sets of dimensions, one for saddle and one for stick packs, as obviously you need to govern size, so manufacturers have size guidelines to manufacture chassis to.

I mean, you could say about adding length to accomodate saddles length wise, but then what about the 4wd cars that can't accept that overal length and cells are then made longer, you go from alienating one style chassis design to alienating another.

One size for Stick
One size for a Saddle

[c0sie]

Can ayone actually explain why size is an issue?

Sorry Ed, but are we still talking about LiPo's here?

[bigred5765]

quiet right and that will probably be what they do (I hope) but thats down to the Eb,I'm buying one stick pack to play with over the winter that will fit most std 2wd cars,and buy my main batch when i see the approved list,

[peetbee]

They are actually shorter than the 3200's by 1mm, their dims are 70Lx47Wx30H. you might be able to take the 0.5mm of the lenght of each cell but taking 5mm off the hight may be pushing it a little

LOL, now that would be a bit too much!

NB Please note I was joking!

[bigred5765]

Personally I've had no problem fitting Trakpower 3200 saddle packs in my BJ4WE, or my B4, without modifying the car the the Lipo pack :thumbsup:

exactly, so theres pro probably lipo ~(saddle packs )already out there that fit without modification, and so they will MOST likely be on the approved list, but thats still a gamble,

[SHY]

Why didn't any of you guys at least say this out loud at the BRCA AGM??? :confused: "They will figure it out..." - are they mind readers???

Now the official BRCA proposal is set for the EFRA AGM... you can't change it there, you either support it + vote over it, or discard it... as is...

So it's either that or the proposal from Norway to vote for - which is without size restrictions or capacity restrictions, and basically quite similar to existing ROAR regulations. Since EFRA will need time to get their own list ready the proposal is for 2009 to simply adopt the ROAR list...

To make things 100% clear: I'm again NOT talking about the BRCA rules for UK, but the european (EFRA) rules for 2009.

So unless BRCA chooses to change the BRCA rules from their own EFRA proposal you guys can just put your TrackPower saddles up for sale... Again, not my concern... just want to clarify this.

Or you can try to convince the BRCA representatives to not support their own proposal... good luck! :lol:

What's the opinion of guys from other countries? Have you discussed it yet? Get in touch with your national association and tell them what you guys want!

[_sleigh_]

exactly, so theres pro probably lipo ~(saddle packs )already out there that fit without modification, and so they will MOST likely be on the approved list, but thats still a gamble,

Nah, the TP 3200 are outside the dimensions specified in the EFRA proposals (and probably what BRCA would adopt). They are (from memory) 71mm long, so two would be 142mm

EFRA Proposal reads - "Total length of saddles when placed end to end must not exceed 139mm."

[_sleigh_]

Or you can try to convince the BRCA representatives to not support their own proposal... good luck! :lol:

:lol::lol:

Although surely anyone at the EFRA AGM could propose an ammendment to either GB or Norway's original proposals.

[mark christopher]

mark if your so worried, why didn't you turn up at the agm,I'm sure they will look at it from all points of view,but i do kinda agree you shouldn't have to take out your dremmel to make them fit in your car (saddle pack style), and i think that any saddle packs that fit in now with no mod, will probably get through any ways as long as there put forward.
ah but i was................. unfortunatly my plan to get a good comittee in the ic section then get o buggies back fiered as i ended up vice chairman and could not get out the meeting, by the time we had finished you had done and gone

[mark christopher]

We did try to say about not having any dimensions, but there has to be. Nothing is definate until after the Efra AGM, so just hold on to your horses guys. It'll all be made clear.

The BRCA are there to represent us, and they do that well, so do give them chance please - if they do something it is for good reason.

The important thing is that the gears are in motion now. :thumbsup:

Also, the 7.4v max wording is done so any future technologies that may come can also be looked at and an EB list done for those also, such as Lithium-ion or whatever else. Great idea to make it like this! ;)

Why didn't any of you guys at least say this out loud at the BRCA AGM??? :confused: "They will figure it out..." - are they mind readers???

Now the official BRCA proposal is set for the EFRA AGM... you can't change it there, you either support it + vote over it, or discard it... as is...

So it's either that or the proposal from Norway to vote for - which is without size restrictions or capacity restrictions, and basically quite similar to existing ROAR regulations. Since EFRA will need time to get their own list ready the proposal is for 2009 to simply adopt the ROAR list...

To make things 100% clear: I'm again NOT talking about the BRCA rules for UK, but the european (EFRA) rules for 2009.

So unless BRCA chooses to change the BRCA rules from their own EFRA proposal you guys can just put your TrackPower saddles up for sale... Again, not my concern... just want to clarify this.

Or you can try to convince the BRCA representatives to not support their own proposal... good luck! :lol:

What's the opinion of guys from other countries? Have you discussed it yet? Get in touch with your national association and tell them what you guys want!


you can propose to amand the proposal of 139mm, so it can be altered to read the max dimension of 144mm should that be the figure you want

so Originally Posted by EFRA proposal 3.11
The maximum case size is as follows: -
Length: 139.0mm.
Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).
Saddle-Pack cells are allowed, but must comply with the above dimensions. Saddle-Pack cells must have a combined dimension of 139.0mm max when placed end to end.

your rep cam propose and amendment to change it to


Originally Posted by EFRA proposal 3.11
The maximum case size is as follows: -
Length: 139.0mm.
Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).
Saddle-Pack cells are allowed, but must comply with the dimensions
Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).
144.0mm max when placed end to end.

its as sipmle as that and thats all that needs doing


in answer to your question " am i happy to let the BRCA boffins sort it"
then yes i am, i know the guys who are representing us, they do a top job, and wont let the out come be a farce that will ruin it for many racers who have the current saddle packs.

[bigred5765]

but we didnt ask for any dimensions at all we ask for just 7.4 nom voltage so it may not even affect it.

[Benh]

I was dissapointed that I couldn't make the AGM.

I am curious as to what's happened. Below I have copied the proposal. So what happened.?

The proposal includes both stick and saddle. It also includes the dimensions that would include Trakpowers Stick and Saddle including both
4400's (dimensions L-70 x W-47 x H-30) and
3200's (dimensions L-71 x W-47 x H-25)

Was the vote raised?
Which way did the vote go?
If (according to what's been posted previously) why was the proposal split between stick and saddle?

Rule 25.1 Proposed: Chris Long Seconded: Jonathan Clark 1.09.2008.

Amend to read
“Cars will be driven by a maximum of six rechargeable Nimh cells or two rechargeable Lithium

Polymer cells in stick or saddle pack configuration, which cannot be replaced after a race has started.

(Rationale – To allow the use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) batteries at 1/10 Off Road Regional and National events in 2009. Many club racers are already using Lipo batteries at club meetings; if Lipo batteries are not allowed to be used at Regional and National meetings a growing number of members will be excluded from racing at these meetings.



Rules to be amended

Electric Board 3.1 – Amend to include “2 cell (2S) Lithium Polymer rechargeable cells rated at 3.7 volts nominal per cell, 2 cells in series, battery packs must have a hard protective casing that completely envelopes the cell(s).

The maximum case sizes are as follows

– Stick packs –
Length: 139.00mm
Width: 47.00mm
Height: 25.00mm

- Saddle packs -

Length: 71mm
Width: 47mm
Height: 30mm
(Height excludes the mouldings on the bottom of the case that help locate the battery pack in the car)




Electric Board 2.1 – Amend to include “2S Lipo 7.4v rechargeable battery pack - £80.00

BRCA Electric Board 2008 Safety Guidelines and Technical Rules for use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) Batteries – To be adopted by 1/10th Off Road Section and amended to incorporate the above proposed rule amendments. ie rule 1 to be amended to include saddle pack batteries and dimensions.

The BRCA Electric Board Lipo homologation list, to include saddle pack configuration lipo’s once submitted by manufactures and approved by the BRCA.

[mark christopher]

but we didnt ask for any dimensions at all we ask for just 7.4 nom voltage so it may not even affect it.
chris has said there has to be dimensions, to my knowledge the eb also supply effra lists? so if efra pass the size rule and eb make a list to suit, brca use said eb list, you have dimensions.

am i reading to much into chris's post re having to have dimensions?

[Benh]

Link to BRCA Proposal doc - http://www.brca.org/Sections/off_e_10/news/Section%20AGM%20Proposals%202008-03.pdf

[Body Paint]

chris has said there has to be dimensions, to my knowledge the eb also supply effra lists? so if efra pass the size rule and eb make a list to suit, brca use said eb list, you have dimensions.

am i reading to much into chris's post re having to have dimensions?

Sounds about right, yes.

PW drafed the proposed sizes for EFRA. This is just a proposal, it could, in theory, be ammended at the EFRA AGM, if someone proposes an ammendment at the meeting.

[Body Paint]

I was dissapointed that I couldn't make the AGM.

I am curious as to what's happened. Below I have copied the proposal. So what happened.?

The proposal includes both stick and saddle. It also includes the dimensions that would include Trakpowers Stick and Saddle including both
4400's (dimensions L-70 x W-47 x H-30) and
3200's (dimensions L-71 x W-47 x H-25)

Was the vote raised?
Which way did the vote go?
If (according to what's been posted previously) why was the proposal split between stick and saddle?

Rule 25.1 Proposed: Chris Long Seconded: Jonathan Clark 1.09.2008.

Amend to read
“Cars will be driven by a maximum of six rechargeable Nimh cells or two rechargeable Lithium

Polymer cells in stick or saddle pack configuration, which cannot be replaced after a race has started.

(Rationale – To allow the use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) batteries at 1/10 Off Road Regional and National events in 2009. Many club racers are already using Lipo batteries at club meetings; if Lipo batteries are not allowed to be used at Regional and National meetings a growing number of members will be excluded from racing at these meetings.



Rules to be amended

Electric Board 3.1 – Amend to include “2 cell (2S) Lithium Polymer rechargeable cells rated at 3.7 volts nominal per cell, 2 cells in series, battery packs must have a hard protective casing that completely envelopes the cell(s).

The maximum case sizes are as follows

– Stick packs –
Length: 139.00mm
Width: 47.00mm
Height: 25.00mm

- Saddle packs -

Length: 71mm

Width: 47mm

Height: 30mm
(Height excludes the mouldings on the bottom of the case that help locate the battery pack in the car)








Electric Board 2.1 – Amend to include “2S Lipo 7.4v rechargeable battery pack - £80.00

BRCA Electric Board 2008 Safety Guidelines and Technical Rules for use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) Batteries – To be adopted by 1/10th Off Road Section and amended to incorporate the above proposed rule amendments. ie rule 1 to be amended to include saddle pack batteries and dimensions.

The BRCA Electric Board Lipo homologation list, to include saddle pack configuration lipo’s once submitted by manufactures and approved by the BRCA.

Because there is already a rule (25.3 I beleive) that says something like, we will only use batteries approved by the Electric Board, it is not possible to have a rule which directly contradicts another rule, therefore the proposal by Long/Clark was unable to be passed.

It is therefore up to the Electric Board to decide what rules they set for dimensions of Lipo and we will have to follow them.

[Chrislong]

What makes sense to me is that the BRCA and Efra want to have consistency on rules like this.

This is because ROAR has a membership of around 60-75% of the BRCA alone, but put the BRCA with Efra and we are far far the biggest RC community in the world. So to have consistent rules means that manufacturers have 1 set of rules to follow in their developments, but by it being the biggest mean manufacturers WILL follow those rules over any other.

So I am confident what happens is going to be possitive, and I know we are going to be represented well. Just need to have patience.

[SHY]

OK, now we're getting somewhere! :thumbsup: I see now that you have really tried, that's great!

True, it's possible to amend a rule at the AGM, but it is seldom being done. Therefore it's not something you can normally hope for.

In any case, try to speak to your national representatives that are going to the EFRA AGM, and explain why you don't want size or capacity restrictions OK? (And try to convince them to amend the proposal)

That goes for all countries!

Best practise for rules is IFMAR (Worlds) = FEMCA (Asia) = ROAR (USA) = EFRA (Europe) = national rules

K.I.S.S.!!!

It's great that the superswede Dallas Mathiesen is now president of both EFRA and IFMAR. Comminication and cooperation between the two had room for improvement in the past!

As to size I cannot really understand why you can't keep the current size specs for NiMH (which is btw normally never being checked...) and just let LiPo batteries be free as to size. What's important is that the list contain good info as to size, so that the racer will know before buying a given battery if it will fit his car or not. It's the same thing with charging - there will always be idiots that don't read the instructions and pay for it... Forcing people to buy new & homologated chargers does IMHO not provide any "real" safety. You just need to educate and inform the customers and racers! Knowledge is power!

And again... this is not touring cars with massive grip! This is buggies on slippery slopes. To put it simple - there's not really any need for ANY restrictions as to motors and batteries - so keep it dead simple!

P.S. Have you guys seen the new proposed 1:8 TR mufflers? It'll look like a gun sticking out of the shell... :lol:

[Benh]

Because there is already a rule (25.3 I beleive) that says something like, we will only use batteries approved by the Electric Board, it is not possible to have a rule which directly contradicts another rule, therefore the proposal by Long/Clark was unable to be passed.

It is therefore up to the Electric Board to decide what rules they set for dimensions of Lipo and we will have to follow them.

I see; it's here in bold.........

Existing rules: -
3. Rules - Rechargeable Batteries:
3.1 Cells submitted for approval prior to <insert date> have to conform to <insert date> BRCA EB rules. The following technical specifications follow the rules adopted by EFRA and will apply to any cells submitted for approval from <insert date> Only rechargeable NiCd or NiMH cells rated at 1.2 volts nominal will be allowed at BRCA sanctioned events.

I am absolutley shocked that this wasn't picked up on the entry for the proposal - or was it? I am glad I couldn't make it, getting up at 5am to make the 6 hour round trip to the AGM and my vote counting for zero would have been quite depressing.

It says adopted by EFRA. Which means that this rule/list is determined by EFRA? - (Just read shy's post - that's a yes)

If this is the case, I understand the logic of what is happening being a global sport/ hobby. But, doesn't this go against "our BRCA" we make the rules?

So.... the BRCA meet with EFRA. They pitch an idea, it goes to vote and the list is incorporated based on the vote. But, if the EFRA meeting is next week and the proposal deadline has passed and the proposal isn't on the table what happens?

If it is adopted by EFRA, then it naturally becomes incorporated into the BRCA EB rules, that means the BRCA rules need to be changed. This requires a proposal (Jonathan Clark and Chris Longs will do) but then it requires a vote by members. Which requires another meeting, an EGM (emergency general meeting)

Alternatively, we could have the rules 25.2 and 25.3 put under rule 2.2 giving the off road section autonomy on the use of cells under the guidance of PW.

It all seems a little complicated to me. But then I may have missed the point here. I am off to mail the BRCA commitee folk and find some clarification.

Either there is a way for the ruling to be changed or there isn't. If there is, it would be ideal to know how and what's being done to see it through in addition to finding out how we can constructivly assist and what channels to use. As above wasn't picked up (JC and CL's proposal) my confidence on it being resolved is not at an all time high.

[David Church]

There is alot of ideas and comments flying around. The BRCA are the best in the world, and I am sure they are acting in our best interest.
I hope people will give them a chance to show us what they plan on doing after the EFRA AGM this weekend. That's not long to wait!!!

Please people, try not to be angry:thumbsup:

[SHY]

I'm sure the americans patiently waited for Georgie boy to do his thing too... :lol:

(Sorry, just couldn't resist...)

And I'll bet you they'll elect that McBrain dude next...

Jokes aside, I'm sure PW & the rest do a really good job. But you know - even the best mom can't hear her deaf mute child cry...

At least tell them what you want & why, I'm sure they are glad to get pointers from you experienced racers! :thumbsup: And those AGMs are loooong and tiring... you'd better be prepared before you go...

[David Church]

[quote=SHY;172582]I'm sure the americans patiently waited for Georgie boy to do his thing too... :lol:

(Sorry, just couldn't resist...)

And I'll bet you they'll elect that McBrain dude next...




Umm.....do you know I am from California or is this just a joke I don't get???? Lol :D

[Lindsay]

All the talk seems be coming from people who have jumped the gun and bought Lipos hoping that they were all going to be legal.This happened way back when we only used to use 1200mm cells and 1400mm were coming out.[ remember Panosonic was not legalised at first ] From my dealings with the BRCA over the last 20 years you will not change their minds. So I suggest like most of the team drivers you wait while their is legal list B4 you buy.

[ashleyb4]

I think we should let i all pan out the BRCA have always done a good job and will continue to do so the electric board will determine which packs are safe suitable and within suitable guidelines all we can do now is wait and see what is leagal. What ever decision is made it wont be perfect first time out next year can be used to iron out the creases.

A

[Chrislong]

Benh, you have some good valueable ideas - but you didn't come to the AGM so don't be offended but you have wasted time in posting them now. sorry.:blush:

Have faith, the BRCA represent us well and the gears are in motion for Lipo. Just be patient and we can start a new thread and discussion once an EB list arrives and starts to get updated.

[DaveG28]

All the talk seems be coming from people who have jumped the gun and bought Lipos hoping that they were all going to be legal.This happened way back when we only used to use 1200mm cells and 1400mm were coming out.[ remember Panosonic was not legalised at first ] From my dealings with the BRCA over the last 20 years you will not change their minds. So I suggest like most of the team drivers you wait while their is legal list B4 you buy.

TBH the only thing I'm worried about is that some of the 2008 cells were difficult to get hold of in time for the first national from what I remember, if we have a situation with saddle packs where there is currently nothing (as far as I know) that fits the rules, there may be a problem come Jan/Feb as one finally gets on the list then becomes like gold dust!

I did jump the gun and got Lipo's already, but then my NIMH were all kerfu**ed already, so it was buy Lipo or buy NIMH, I took the risk for an easy life over the winter and will live with it if I have to relook at it in the spring!

[mark christopher]

All the talk seems be coming from people who have jumped the gun and bought Lipos hoping that they were all going to be legal.This happened way back when we only used to use 1200mm cells and 1400mm were coming out.[ remember Panosonic was not legalised at first ] From my dealings with the BRCA over the last 20 years you will not change their minds. So I suggest like most of the team drivers you wait while their is legal list B4 you buy.
same could be said about brushless motors they were used before they were legal, the rules came from the original motors!

there is another way to look at this, those with stick and saddle lipo now, may just buy a 4x4 that is already lipo freindly and choose to change chassis so they can run stick lipo! somthing ill consider.

[mark christopher]

did efra put a prosal in for a max capacity?

[SHY]

did efra put a prosal in for a max capacity?

For the EFRA AGM there are 2 proposals (EFRA has not proposed anything in this matter). The one from BRCA (UK) states max length 139mm and max capacity 5000 mAH. The one from NMF (Norway) states no such limitations.

I suggest that those really interested take the time to actually read through the proposals here:

http://www.efra.ws/news/executive001.html

(It'll take you 5 minutes)

@Church: You left sunny California for rainy UK? Now that's gotta be a damn good lookin' girl you found! :D

[mark christopher]

For the EFRA AGM there are 2 proposals (EFRA has not proposed anything in this matter). The one from BRCA (UK) states max length 139mm and max capacity 5000 mAH. The one from NMF (Norway) states no such limitations.

I suggest that those really interested take the time to actually read through the proposals here:

http://www.efra.ws/news/executive001.html

(It'll take you 5 minutes)

@Church: You left sunny California for rainy UK? Now that's gotta be a damn good lookin' girl you found! :D
i have read em and the ic ones, and i have slept twice since then, when your old the grey cells fail you :blush:

so the new lrp/nosram ones would pass on dimensions and fail on capacity!

[Benh]

Benh, you have some good valueable ideas - but you didn't come to the AGM so don't be offended but you have wasted time in posting them now. sorry.:blush:

Have faith, the BRCA represent us well and the gears are in motion for Lipo. Just be patient and we can start a new thread and discussion once an EB list arrives and starts to get updated.

Hi Chris. Fair point on the attendance, and no offence taken;)

I read your proposal and thought perfect. I was under the impression that a proposal is put forward, it's voted on, accepted or rejected and that's that. I wasn't aware of any influence by EFRA. It's quite a learning curve.

I'll take your advice and wait until the EB list comes out.

[Chrislong]

Hi Ben,
You have some good ideas and seem to have a better understanding of AGM's than I do, for some of us (me) the AGM is new and just what can be done whilst in them is a steep learning curve. It was very interesting and id go again.

[David Church]

[
@Church: You left sunny California for rainy UK? Now that's gotta be a damn good lookin' girl you found! :D[/quote]


I left smoggy California cause I was wanted for murder!! Lol

[niggs98]

I left smoggy California cause I was wanted for murder!! Lol


:wtf::wtf: best ben and ash watch out at the nationals next year :woot::woot::wtf:

[David Church]

:wtf::wtf: best ben and ash watch out at the nationals next year :woot::woot::wtf:


Mwhaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!Schhhhhhhhhhhh:thumbsup:

[DCM]

there is a reason behind the 5000mAh rating, being the amount of Lithium contained in the cell, and how much you are legally entitled to carry in one vessel onto an airplane.... so you fly to the euro's with 6000mAh cells, they can demand you leave them at home.... ahem not a good thing huh.

[DCM]

just out of interest, would it be worth getting a load of names together and email PW with a request that dimensions be put in to cover Saddle LiPo as well as stick?

[mark christopher]

just out of interest, would it be worth getting a load of names together and email PW with a request that dimensions be put in to cover Saddle LiPo as well as stick?
i know about the 5000 limit

get one done if you have time , i.ll put my name on it, but im sure pw will have read this thread and take it into account

[DCM]

it would be better coming from a known driver, preferably national F2-1 driver, it would give a little more weight to it.

And assumption is the mother of all cock-ups dude, you should know that!

[David Church]

PW will def read this thread. :thumbsup:

[DCM]

you got his eyes pinned open and hitting the refresh button every five mins huh!!!! top man haha.

Although the running of saddles doesn't affect me (good ole Tamiya lol), to not allow it will be just total madness as it would rule out so many chassis's available, new and old.

[David Church]

you got his eyes pinned open and hitting the refresh button every five mins huh!!!! top man haha.

Although the running of saddles doesn't affect me (good ole Tamiya lol), to not allow it will be just total madness as it would rule out so many chassis's available, new and old.


I agree, just out of curiosity, cant they make saddle packs that meet the proposed size???

[bigred5765]

just out of interest, would it be worth getting a load of names together and email PW with a request that dimensions be put in to cover Saddle LiPo as well as stick?

we ask for no dimensions at all, just a nom voltage of 7.4,and it was pw that suggested that,:thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

we ask for no dimensions at all, just a nom voltage of 7.4,and it was pw that suggested that,:thumbsup:
gets my vote:thumbsup:

allot less hassle too for scruiteneers


a senario

track power make thier saddle packs 3mm shorter (1.5mm per case) to the naked eye they would look identical, so would all have to be measured!

[SHY]

If there's an international limit of 5000 mAh as to sending LiPo battries on a plane, then that's a good argument. Someone better find out!

I've heard that in essense you're not really allowed to send LiPo batteries with air freight at all (ground shipping only). Some webshops cannot sell to other countries due to this. Also this has to be investigated thoroughly.

In practise I can't really see the airlines opening up your luggage and checking the mAh rating... I think this is a VERY theoretical problem if any. (Hand luggage would be worse of course).

Does this mean laptops will never come with batteries with more than 5000 mAh???

An argument against size restrictions is that manufacturers won't try to make thinner cases, wires, smaller solder tabs etc... to try and shrink'em... safety first!

And as to size restrictions for NiMH cells... how often have you seen a stickpack being dismantled and measured? Tabs soldered off so you can accurately measure the length? With metal calipers shorting the cell... :lol: It's way over complicated if you ask me... Not to forget... if the text on the shrinkwrap is written in the wrong colour, wrong colour on the ring etc... they're not legal... hence you're always insecure when ordering new cells...

At least for OR... why do we need any battery rules nowadays at all? Nobody's dumping... nobody can go faster with more power...

[mark christopher]

If there's an international limit of 5000 mAh as to sending LiPo battries on a plane, then that's a good argument. Someone better find out!

I've heard that in essense you're not really allowed to send LiPo batteries with air freight at all (ground shipping only). Some webshops cannot sell to other countries due to this. Also this has to be investigated thoroughly.

In practise I can't really see the airlines opening up your luggage and checking the mAh rating... I think this is a VERY theoretical problem if any. (Hand luggage would be worse of course).

Does this mean laptops will never come with batteries with more than 5000 mAh???

An argument against size restrictions is that manufacturers won't try to make thinner cases, wires, smaller solder tabs etc... to try and shrink'em... safety first!
you can take lipo on a plane i took some to belgiun in my case and hand luggage just declared em up front

[David Church]

So if the 5000 mAh is true, why have LRP just come out with 5100 mAh???
Seems very silly eh???

[SHY]

Never a Toyota Prius on a cargo plane then... :lol:

[David Church]

Never a Toyota Prius on a cargo plane then... :lol:


yeah they are ok, they have Nicad batteries!!!!!:woot:

[Chrislong]

There are loopholes for cells contained in a device - such as laptop batteries, and then loopholes for spare batteries carried for that device. Chances are a passenger would never ever get stopped by a customs official to challenge this anyway, from experience the customs officials for passengers don't know what they're looking for except the obvious - because there is so many rules, by the time they;ve checked them the passenger has long gone. Whereas for cargo they have more time to check facts (and its automated too).

For example, if I was to ship a shipment of 100'000pcs of a Lithium button cell (which I do), I have to do dangerous goods paper work, pack in special cartons, include relevant UN paperwork etc. But if those cells go through a process and are fitted into, say, a watch. Then for me to then ship 100'000 watches is a standard shipment, easy.

The reason for the size limits is that Lipo and Nimh need to be on a level playing field. Nimhs have a cell size to comply with and when they didn't the door shut on them - remember the IB38's? So Lipo needs similar goal posts, granted the packs are very different, but for fairness with our demands to manufacturer if not any other reason, we need a dimension rule.

It'll all work out for the best.

[SHY]

I've done some googling... it's much, much worse...

Firstly, the rules vary from airline to airline. The ministry of transportation in the US stated that you may only carry 3 batteries, they must be in the handluggage, in transparent bags...

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

IMHO I think this is something the manufacturers should deal with. I cannot see how EFRA can be expected to be informed as to all european countries and all the airline policies... It's too much work and too complicated.

Keep in mind that in theory you're not even allowed to put any oils etc. in your luggage... if you want to fly your gear to a race you're kinda forced to bend the rules slightly anyway...


The reason for the size limits is that Lipo and Nimh need to be on a level playing field. Nimhs have a cell size to comply with and when they didn't the door shut on them - remember the IB38's? So Lipo needs similar goal posts, granted the packs are very different, but for fairness with our demands to manufacturer if not any other reason, we need a dimension rule.

Chris, the rest of your post is very interesting! But as for the quoted section here I'm afraid I cannot see the point. Please explain further!

I know NiMH sizes "got out of control"... but isn't that EFRAs homologation process that failed? And as to the recent battery explosions - wouldn't that have been avoided if they were "stess tested" in a laboratory? (like ROAR does for LiPo)

As to LiPo it's simply that the cells itself are a given size. And with safe hardcasing etc. a saddle cannot be made smaller... How "fair" would it be to pull the plug on manufactuers of saddle pack cars?

And don't tell me to wait patiently! :lol: This is a discussion forum! :thumbsup:

@David: http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/2007/april/battery.html (future ones then! :lol:)

[Chrislong]

The rules never changed, but the cells got bigger. With size comes added punch, added capacity..... added explosions?! So they were made to comply with the rules, therefore we got many new brands on the market for this years EB list.

With Lipo, they need to have similar goalposts. Obviously it goes without saying but I will, Lipo is not the same shape, but even so a dimension needs to be set for manufacturers to work within otherwise the floodgates are left open - whereas Nimhs which Lipo's are competing against on the track, still have the same strict rules.

What is also different to ever before, is Lipo hit the market and has become popular before any EB list has been released, so many members/competitors now have packs they expect to be allowed to use - which is fair enough. But now the BRCA/EB are being asked indirectly "Make the rules fit what we already have".

This wouldn't be such a big deal if the lifespan of a Lipo pack was as short as a Nimh pack, but it isn't. Even if the rules make your packs illegal, you'll still have to buy less, spend less for 1st April than you would buying cells. I know many of us spent a lot of money 1st April 2008. Even if my current packs don't fall within the rules, i'll only need 1 pack (2 packs incase of failure maximum) if I need to purchase something for the rules come 1st April.

The BRCA & EB represent us well, and are working toward achieving what is ideal. If that does not happen then we'll get the best compromise, but personally I am confident they will represent all of our best interests and id like not for that to be questioned - we need to show appreciation for these people. Please.

Chris

[David Church]

The rules never changed, but the cells got bigger. With size comes added punch, added capacity..... added explosions?! So they were made to comply with the rules, therefore we got many new brands on the market for this years EB list.

With Lipo, they need to have similar goalposts. Obviously it goes without saying but I will, Lipo is not the same shape, but even so a dimension needs to be set for manufacturers to work within otherwise the floodgates are left open - whereas Nimhs which Lipo's are competing against on the track, still have the same strict rules.

What is also different to ever before, is Lipo hit the market and has become popular before any EB list has been released, so many members/competitors now have packs they expect to be allowed to use - which is fair enough. But now the BRCA/EB are being asked indirectly "Make the rules fit what we already have".

This wouldn't be such a big deal if the lifespan of a Lipo pack was as short as a Nimh pack, but it isn't. Even if the rules make your packs illegal, you'll still have to buy less, spend less for 1st April than you would buying cells. I know many of us spent a lot of money 1st April 2008. Even if my current packs don't fall within the rules, i'll only need 1 pack (2 packs incase of failure maximum) if I need to purchase something for the rules come 1st April.

The BRCA & EB represent us well, and are working toward achieving what is ideal. If that does not happen then we'll get the best compromise, but personally I am confident they will represent all of our best interests and id like not for that to be questioned - we need to show appreciation for these people. Please.

Chris


VERY WELL SAID!!!!:thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

What is also different to ever before, is Lipo hit the market and has become popular before any EB list has been released, so many members/competitors now have packs they expect to be allowed to use - which is fair enough. But now the BRCA/EB are being asked indirectly "Make the rules fit what we already have".


Chris

was that not the case with brushless tho?

[Chrislong]

Im talking power supply Mark.

[SHY]

VERY WELL SAID!!!!:thumbsup:

I'll have to agree with that! :D

[_sleigh_]

was that not the case with brushless tho?

Not from my understanding no. I thought the manufacturers all got together and knocked out a set of specifications for BL motors. I appreciate those specs might have had a few revisions in the early stages, but manufacturers all knew what to work to (that is if they wanted the motor to be legal).

[SHY]

I see from the EFRA papers that both LiPo proposals are put under the general electric meeting, not under the 1:10 OR meeting.

Anyone know why? Did PW say anything about this at your BRCA AGM?

An important point was for this to be voted for ONLY in the 1:10 OR section. If this has to be passed for other electric classes as well, then chances are that it won't pass...

If those running touring cars or 1:12 want LiPos, then they'd better propose it themselves.

>> one proposal for each class!

[terry.sc]

There are good reasons for having maximum dimensions for lipos. Right now the manufacturers make lipo packs for everything including sanctioned racing so they aren't too worried about making race legal cells to race legal dimensions.

Now lets say Orion brought out a new pack using two of the platinum 20C 5000mah packs inside one case, in parallel so it's still 7.4v. You now have a 10000mah 40C pack that's 46mm high, but if there's no dimension regulations it would be perfectly legal for racing.

There's also the practical requirement of making packs that fit the cars. Lets say Orion make a saddle pack to a higher spec than the Trakpower one, but with no dimension limits it's 10mm longer. If it becomes the pack to have you are then limited to running cars that the bigger pack will fit in.

As for And as to size restrictions for NiMH cells... how often have you seen a stickpack being dismantled and measured? Tabs soldered off so you can accurately measure the length? With metal calipers shorting the cell... :lol: It's way over complicated if you ask me...Have a word with Marc Reinhard. He was disqualified from one of the finals he won at the touring car Euro champs because one of the cells in his car was oversize when it was measured after the race. You can buy calipers in other materials than steel, designed specifically for use in the electrical industry.

Whatever happens, the lipo packs that are being used now will still be able to be used at the same tracks.

[Chrislong]

Yes this was mentioned. The EB list will be a universal list for all classes.

There is a chance the 12th guys may choose to run single lipo's, if not now then next time round. I think we're leading the way, but in a way where others can choose to jump on the same 'bandwagon'.

It can get through this way, but the individual sections need to open there doors to it with the section rules. EG. the wording of the BRCA 1/10th off-road rule changing to maximum nominal voltage of 7.4v opens its doors to it.

[SHY]

If you read the proposal I've made, you can see that it gives you the possibility to run with only 3,7 volt (one cell) if you like.

Still, I don't think 1:12 is ready yet. Only actual thing I've heard is that the cars handled poorly with the low weight.

Touring should be kinda ok... but the 5 cells (6 volt) thing is down the drain then... and they would suffer overheating problems again...

>> Complex!!! For 1:10 OR exclusively it's not!

This is my original wording in the proposal:

Amended:
Appendix 3, rule 3.3
1/10 Off-Road cars will be driven by a maximum of six cells. EFRA approved Lithium Polymer batteries may be used as an option for this class. See Appendix 10 for specifications.

NEW:
Appendix 10
LITHIUM POLYMER BATTERIES (LiPo) - SPECIFICATIONS, TESTING AND APPROVAL


And they've simply changed it to "3.11"... fishy!!! :thumbdown: They should have just kept it as it was, and made an EFRA executive proposal for all classes in addition if they liked. Or better: one for each class.

I hope they have enough coffee at that electrical meeting...

[Chrislong]

If you can find the passed rule from the BRCA, this would be more suitable for Efra I think.

As it allows further new technologies - it doesn;t identify any cell type or form. Just states maximum voltage, I think this is most suitable.

[mark christopher]

was that not the case with brushless tho?

Not from my understanding no. I thought the manufacturers all got together and knocked out a set of specifications for BL motors. I appreciate those specs might have had a few revisions in the early stages, but manufacturers all knew what to work to (that is if they wanted the motor to be legal).

Im talking power supply Mark.
chris it was a question, hence the ?

[mark christopher]

There are good reasons for having maximum dimensions for lipos. Right now the manufacturers make lipo packs for everything including sanctioned racing so they aren't too worried about making race legal cells to race legal dimensions.

Now lets say Orion brought out a new pack using two of the platinum 20C 5000mah packs inside one case, in parallel so it's still 7.4v. You now have a 10000mah 40C pack that's 46mm high, but if there's no dimension regulations it would be perfectly legal for racing.

There's also the practical requirement of making packs that fit the cars. Lets say Orion make a saddle pack to a higher spec than the Trakpower one, but with no dimension limits it's 10mm longer. If it becomes the pack to have you are then limited to running cars that the bigger pack will fit in.

As for Have a word with Marc Reinhard. He was disqualified from one of the finals he won at the touring car Euro champs because one of the cells in his car was oversize when it was measured after the race. You can buy calipers in other materials than steel, designed specifically for use in the electrical industry.

Whatever happens, the lipo packs that are being used now will still be able to be used at the same tracks.
dont think the c rating would alter would it? as in 20 to 40
is would still be 20 c but times 10000

[Benh]

I've done some googling... it's much, much worse...

Firstly, the rules vary from airline to airline.

Here are the IATA standards (Maxamps conform to IATA standards for their LiPo packs )

Here are the guidelines for the transport of Lithium. It's not the capacity directly, it's the amount of Lithium within the cells and the total of the battery. (Which you can work out from the capacity)

From what I gather this isn't restriction on the size, just a different process for the paperwork.

Tried to get the info from the IATA - but this will cost $250:eh?:

It's all here: - http://www.moltechpower.co.uk/pdfs/Transportation%20Regulations%20for%20LiIon%20Batte ries%20TM01.pdf

This is even better - based on both IATA and ICAO - it's a presentation and a lot easier to understand.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1219/20080502DangerousGoodsRegulationChangesPresentatio n.pdf

[mark christopher]

right to try to bring this back on topic,

will we be able to use lipo at brca sanctioned meeting in 2009 as the rules stand now cus with the last ??? pages im confused

[SHY]

From the BRCA proposal:

It should be noted that EFRA General Rule 2.9 states that for Rule changes that effect more than one Section :- “Unless specified at the (main) AGM all technical Rule changes will be effective 12 months after the rule has been approved.
As the various Electric Classes use different battery voltages, it would require each Section to decide if LiPo cells are suitable.

ME NO LIKE THIS! :( ... 2010 in worst case now guys...

It could work out well, but chances are much higher now that it won't...

[mark christopher]

shy as this is in brca nationals and regionals, can we keep to the important bit?
the proposal in the brca was to allow up to 7.4 in electric buggy,
if efra say yes but its not active till 2010 for efra the brca can still take em on? as we run to brca rules.
what i want to know is, if efra do not take on lipo, what will happen to the brca re list? i hope the eb make a brca list ,then efra follow our lead?

pw can you confirm this for me please?

oddly according to chris we could have run em all this year :D


I am suprised nobody has asked, and nobody in attendance has updated already but here goes:

The rule on Lipo got passed by the members for use at all sanctioned events from 1st April 2008. The rule in the handbook does not need to go into detail like the proposal did and all that was changed is any mention of cells, cell type etc has been removed, and the wording changed to "Car will be driven by a nominal voltage of no more than 7.4v".

The EB has been asked to compile a list of Lipo's, which is going to be done, but firstly they will take care of the spec - which will be done to match whatever Efra decide next week at their AGM. (The BRCA & Efra should have consistency on rules like this).

The Lipo list will be made available on www.brca.org (http://www.brca.org/) as soon as possible, and will be kept live until the cutoff for Lipo submission. So any of us can view it before making a purchase and see what the current list shows. I highly recommend anybody wanting Lipo to wait for this, and use it.

Initially we think that no current saddle packs will be made legal due to their size. This is unfortunate, but the manufacturer may already be dealing with it - like I said, watch www.brca.org (http://www.brca.org/). This only means for regional/national, and anybody who has already got packs will still be able to use them at club level just as they are doing now.

Chris

[SHY]

Are you saying BRCA will (does?) allow LiPos even if EFRA don't? (And what's important to you might differ from others ;)) We're in Norway playing safe on this matter. It's proposed to follow the ROAR list in case it fails to be opened up for by EFRA (or delayed). It will be decided 8th november on our national AGM.

Mind you some of your fellow countrymen DO travel outside UK to race! :D

I think PW will work hard to get identical rules for EFRA and BRCA. As you've pointed out before: the EB list is "made in England" :D

[terry.sc]

dont think the c rating would alter would it? as in 20 to 40
is would still be 20 c but times 10000I expected a reply to this:lol:
The pack was totally hypothetical, not based on any specs. I assumed that putting two complete 2S2P packs together in parallel inside one case (so a 2S4P) Yes you are right, it would still be 20C as the capacity has doubled, but the maximum discharge current would double. It would be simpler if they used numbers that were easier to compare:lol:

(just checked and the 3200 and 4800 saddles are in fact roar aproved)Out of curiosity I just checked the ROAR lipo rules and the maximum dimensions they use are the same 139mm long proposed to EFAR, but with reference to saddle packs at all.

[terry.sc]

Are you saying BRCA will (does?) allow LiPos even if EFRA don't? (And what's important to you might differ from others)Yes, the 1/10 OR section has voted to allow lipos whether EFRA approves them or not. We use our own rules and stick to them, regardless to what EFRA does. in 1/12th dropping to 4 cells was a decision made by the BRCA, which was then followed by EFRA and IFMAR in later years. Last year touring cars were running lipos on our EB list in our ProStock class.
If the OR section has voted for lipos they will be allowed at BRCA meetings whatever EFRA says, the only problem is working out what batteries are legal for racing. Whatever specification EFRA approve we will stick to them, if they don't then following ROARs (identical) specification would be the way to go, although it is then debatable whether TP saddles are allowed.
We do find it strange at times that so many European countries just follow EFRA rules rather than create their own which might be more suitable.
oddly according to chris we could have run em all this year :DIn theory you can run whatever type or cell you like, in previous years rules just stated a maximum of 6 cells, not what type of cells they actually were or how much voltage they had. Unfortunately this was then limited by the next rule which stated that the batteries must be the EB homologation list, which limited you to nicad and nimh cells.

[SHY]

Terry, that's very clarifying - thx! :thumbsup:

We do find it strange at times that so many European countries just follow EFRA rules rather than create their own which might be more suitable.


Well, I think most countries choose to follow EFRA rules. And then just make a few exceptions if necessary.

Reasons to do this:
-one set of rules for national and international events (for simplicity and competitiveness)
-lack of national resources (UK has a big RC crowd with resources like PW and others)

Personally I prefer to follow EFRA rules. And if you disagree with something, then change the national rules. But in addition propose the rule change also to EFRA. What makes sense makes sense in most countries!

[mark christopher]

Yes, the 1/10 OR section has voted to allow lipos whether EFRA approves them or not. We use our own rules and stick to them, regardless to what EFRA does. in 1/12th dropping to 4 cells was a decision made by the BRCA, which was then followed by EFRA and IFMAR in later years. Last year touring cars were running lipos on our EB list in our ProStock class.
If the OR section has voted for lipos they will be allowed at BRCA meetings whatever EFRA says, the only problem is working out what batteries are legal for racing. Whatever specification EFRA approve we will stick to them, if they don't then following ROARs (identical) specification would be the way to go, although it is then debatable whether TP saddles are allowed.
We do find it strange at times that so many European countries just follow EFRA rules rather than create their own which might be more suitable.
In theory you can run whatever type or cell you like, in previous years rules just stated a maximum of 6 cells, not what type of cells they actually were or how much voltage they had. Unfortunately this was then limited by the next rule which stated that the batteries must be the EB homologation list, which limited you to nicad and nimh cells.
terry i got the roar aproved info from trakpowers site???? never looked at roar rules

the reference im talking about this years is chris has done a typo and put they will be allowed in brca sanctioned meetings from april 2008, where as he meant 2009 :D

[Northy]

Isn't this thread great? :)

G

[mark christopher]

roar lipo list is here http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/lipobattery.php?PHPSESSID=af284b3db64079a32e6f1bb3 017f4a5c

they have allowed saddle till dimensions can be established
"*This pack is configured saddle pack style and has been granted conditional approval until saddle pack dimensions are established "

[SHY]

I've just emailed PW and Frank Mostrey asking for an explanation as to why the norwegian proposal is moved/rewritten from OR to the general proposal section.

Hopefully we can get this sorted before the AGM. Don't you all agree it's better to vote over this class by class?

(Still talking about EFRA rules)

AND - IMHO you can't just change a proposal, it should be dealt with as is. At least there should be some communication or discussing if it's to be amended. I'll be extremely disappointed if LiPo doesent' get EFRA legal for 1:10 OR starting 1. april 2009...

[Chrislong]

Don't you all agree it's better to vote over this class by class?

(Still talking about EFRA rules)

No,
As ideally all classes should run to the same motors/cells. This makes it so when touring car racers/12th racer etc realise that 1/10th off-road is better, they just have to buy chassis.

It also means manufacturers have a bigger single market of racers to sell to, rather than differing rules per class which they may then choose to not cater for as that perticular market may be too small on its own.

The proposal is right to be in general, its then down to the sections to adopt it.

[SHY]

In an ideal world yes...

Back in the day all classes ran with 6 cells. But with 6 volts and 4,8 volts for touring and 1:12 (with good reasons).

And a single LiPo cell being 3,7 volt... you get into lots of issues... which are not resolved for these classes.

Tourers would of course jump straight onto 7,4 volt LiPos... but then they'd face the same problems as before (read the AGM notes from previous years, LRP had a lot to say about this, and 5 cells has worked according to the intentions).

1:12 is totally unclear as to LiPo - I've not heard any serious developments or testing going on...

So... if being forced to do a "general voting" at the EFRA AGM for all electric classes I strongly feel the answer will be a NO!

Btw 1:12 TR is very fun to drive! Totally different from OR, but it still has it's charm! :D

[mark christopher]

I've just emailed PW and Frank Mostrey asking for an explanation as to why the norwegian proposal is moved/rewritten from OR to the general proposal section.

Hopefully we can get this sorted before the AGM. Don't you all agree it's better to vote over this class by class?

(Still talking about EFRA rules)

AND - IMHO you can't just change a proposal, it should be dealt with as is. At least there should be some communication or discussing if it's to be amended. I'll be extremely disappointed if LiPo doesent' get EFRA legal for 1:10 OR starting 1. april 2009...
but its not and it can be amended by those at the meeting. they do discuss when they amend it.

agree with chris needs to be uniform, other sections do not need to adopt it such as 5 cell mod or 12th, they just use the bits they need to.
BRCA have lipo, all im concerned about!!

[Chrislong]

SHY, your like a dog with a bone. :lol: I can't knock your enthusiasm. Personally I feel our interests are being taken care of and we need to put some trust into those people who represent us all, so id like to let the matter rest and let those people get on with what they're best at.

[SHY]

LOL! :lol::lol::lol: Wooff!!!

We're all good friends, and discussions like these are great!

We must try and get over to your isolated island one day and race on some grass track... and have some beers :D

I'm just very concerned about diplomatic decisions. If me and my opinions are a minority I have no problems accepting that. But those who want to make a change can and should do so. Most people just complain and never contribute to actually doing something about it. But once you do take action it must be treated with 100% integrity. I've experienced a couple of times rules (national ones) being changed mid-season even if it was 100% unanimously passed at the last AGM... and that I can promise you takes away the enthusiasm!

Even though the guys at EFRA do a marvellous job they are not perfect, and make mistakes just like all of us. And there's nothing wrong with us keeping an eye on them :D

Chris - don't forget that many of us counted on "somebody" to propose and get LiPos passed already last year... You guys get LiPo in UK anyways now, so I understand you are happy with that. (Mark, first now I see that this tread is under "BRCA Nationals & Regionals" :blush: Sorry bout'that!) But if you go to a GP or EC you might be forced to convert your cars back to NiMH - fancy that?

For us we luckily have a proposal for LiPo with or without EFRA rules for OR. For the touring class there is a proposal to accept it only if EFRA decides so.

I've at least done all I can do now... so let's just hope for the best! :thumbsup:

[terry.sc]

Don't you all agree it's better to vote over this class by class?If each class vote for it separately there's nothing to stop each class coming up with their own specifications for the packs. For example as all touring chassis use stick packs they don't need any rules regarding saddle packs.

Say for example the touring car class decides a bigger pack is needed for more capacity and they ratify bigger dimensions that no longer fit inside a B4 chassis. The manufacturers start making loads of these bigger packs for the larger touring car market, leaving buggies with a smaller range of batteries to fit their own different rules. Anyone who races both classes would also have to buy separate batteries for each class they race in.

By being in the general rules it makes sure every class can use the same equipment. You buy a touring car, get bored with it, but you can still use the same motor, ESC and batteries in your new buggy because the electrics rules are the same over all the classes.

All it takes to change the proposal is someone at the EFRA AGM to point out the problem and make sure saddle pack dimensions are added. Once the rules are there the EC might have to wait a year before lipos are allowed, but once there is a specification in the rules it's down to the national bodies to decide to use them.

[SHY]

Has anyone heard the results from the AGM this weekend?