The future of 2wd offroad - Your opinons..

[PaulRotheram]

This is an open debate to see what users opinions of 2wds offroads future will have and the implications that will or may have.
Recently we have seen schumacher have various forms of an inboard motor 2wd, which as pictures from silverstone show, could be near a production model.

Xray have just announced they are releasing their XB4 2WD, which the same as the schumacher is a 2wd front end bolted on to their current 4wd rear end.

And the DB1 from rudebits plus the TM2 both giving good showings already.

So with new models on the horizon, what is your opinion on 2wds future?

The way I currently see it, from an early perspective - the possibility of needing three different 2wds is quite high.
The current mid motor for low to high grip
A rear motor for dirt / clay tracks and very low grip conditions
And the new inboard motor for very high grip conditions.

The 4wd class is less populated than 2wd, as current preferences are swayed to running 2wd as most competitive drivers will run that class.
Will the prospect of possibly needing two or three 2wds models sway people away from 4wd even more?

Will the possible need of two, or even three 2wd models be a reality for 2014?

[mintzant]

It's a big question...
I think that all discussion it's going to be around the position of motor.
My opinion it's that the future in 2wd and 4wd it's the new material and new generation battery...
We can see the old but always new associated b4!!!!
So many years but finaly the same car.
The differences ... New tires, new big bore shocks, new lexan, new..., new... But same chassis and same motor position...
Something difference we can see from new schumacher 2wd, this one in word champion with the belt drive...

[450kid]

If everyone is going 2wd why not run separate classes mid and rear motor?

[adey]

Maybe we will see 2wd buggys with a optional chassis layout. We already have cars that can be built in rear or mid motor. Maybe as an addition to that we will see cars that can be built in rear, mid or mid forward motor by design. I do think that shorty lipos will be the basis for cars layouts in the future though.

[Origineelreclamebord]

The future of 2WD... It depends a lot on what the tracks are like I suppose. It seems smooth/flat, big, demanding jumps (a lot of them too) and high grip are the trend, and as such we see more cars that are well adapted to that. Particularly big venues are being maintained meticulously, and since the high level drivers don't visit small venues as often it's no wonder more and more brands develop a car suited to those high grip conditions.

As long as the trend continues of making buggy racing touring car driving with jumps, we'll see more of these cars about :lol: I can even imagine we'll start seeing new geometry for the cars and more emphasis on aerodynamics (which includes shocks and suspension, not just the bodyshell).

Just my opinion about buggy racing in general, I'd rather see the development the other way around. The lower speeds of driving on low-medium bite with easy jumps give a lot of benefits:

- It's safer for marshals.
- It's cheaper because your car breaks down less easily.
- The gaps between cars will be smaller (in distance), making it more thrilling to watch.
- Overtaking is easier because you have less distance to gain to your opponent to overtake.
- You're fighting each other instead of grip roll and the right flow through a jump section.
- (Close) racing becomes easier for lower level drivers because you don't need ninja reflexes - plus I think losing the rear end won't cost as much time as grip rolling.
- Contact between cars results in less drama.

That said, the most important thing for will remain to be the fun factor and atmosphere at the trackside, and that's highly enjoyable with the buggy crowd! :thumbsup:

[dicky14]

:confused:MMMMM, this is going to be an interesting thread, i own all 3 motor layout and personally my mid motor car is the most consistant out of the 3, but the mid inboard (tm2) gives a much better feel and can be driven harder, resulting in faster laps, not necesarraly cleaner laps because of the corner speed, but my driving is addapting to the car and the consistency is getting there.
As for 3 classes of 2wd, yeh bring it on, because us older guys that used to race rear motor will probably all race that class because of the nostalgia aspect, lol:thumbsup:

[dicky14]

just another thought, maybe there should be a 13.5 class for buggies on blinky, maybe that would liven things up with close racing etc:woot:

[tony12795]

At the end of the Day it's all about COSTS and people with the most money or don't pay for their racing (Team Drivers) will have every type of car that's available to them and use whats suitable for that track including weather conditions and why not, its what I would do.

Is this why controlled tyres were brought into the rules to stop people having every type of tyre on the market and to save costs....?

My 50p worth and suggestion is at BRCA sanction events the chassis is marked (like the worlds) and that chassis can only be run at that event, this at least stops people switching cars during an event so for instance if it rains or its slippy in the morning the car chosen for high grip will not work so well and vice versa. Just a thought!

[Pacman]

What concerns me more is that the inboard motored cars with weight pushed forward for handling rather than traction seem to be more sensitive to tire wear. As such, not only will people have to buy 3 chassis layouts, but more tires, especially on high grip surfaces.

Perhaps given that most major events have control tyres, we should choose control tyres that favour 2wd's set-up for high traction rather than handling?

I can't see that being popular with Schumacher through!

[TARTMAN]

bin 2wd and go 4wd then...........:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I think it should be a simple thing.....

2wd is 2wd....... no matter what the layout, its up to the driver/owner of said 2wd to decide what suits best.

BUT

The "choose" a chassis/car at the start of the meeting and that's the one you drive regardless is a good idea, to stop the things mentioned above.

Personally I run 4wd mainly. But in 2wd I generally have one buggy so does not matter to me.

The top drivers, on whatever track and conditions will drive them well and do well regardless.

The normal drivers with spare dosh will keep on buying what the trend is and change frequently.

Normal drivers with out the spare dosh or just in it for the fun and challenge will buy what they want and race it. keeping the cost down for whatever reason.

There are as many choices as there are different drivers/needs so as long as people continue to race, the rules are not made to anal as to deter the club fun racer, then 2wd and 4wd will continue and choices will be made.

I hope the "rules" and classes are not complicated to deter people. like 3 classes for 2wd, then 4wd, then a blinky class as well. just gets to much.

2wd

4wd

SC

Stadium

Done.................. off road wise.:thumbsup:

[AfroP]

I cant see people other than team drivers and those that are made of money running 3 2wd cars.
I also dont see 1 manufacturer making the 3 different motor position cars(maybe Schumacher would)

If somebody wanted to run 3 2wd's and can afford the time and money to build, test, setup, and upgrade all 3 then I say more fool them. especially when 3 different motor layouts require slightly different driving styles.
I for one would rather concentrate on 1 car that has an option for rear or mid motor and get that 1 car right.

[Cream]

I'd imagine it will only effect the top end guys. I'm of the cannon fodder variety. I doubt it will make much difference no matter what are I drive.
If people are that good that a 10th of a second is going to make a difference. I guess most of them are going to have sponsors.
The best drivers are always going to have the best gear, but the bulk of their speed comes from their ability not the car they are driving.

If you start splitting groups, It will either kill the sport or kill off innovation.

[DCM]

Hmm, interesting topic but there are one or two things omitted.

Most people won't want to have more than one car
People will buy the car they like the most
Most people really won't gain any significant advantage over chassis layouts.

Paul, I really think it will come down to where and on what you race rather than people thinking they need to have all three chassis's, just like when mid-motor took over, a majority converted from rear to mid rather than keeping both.

[PaulRotheram]

The thing is, out of the national scene id say ( being generous here ) 5-10 drivers get their equipment for free. Then we have the drivers with discounted equipment - even that isnt a huge discounted price. So the majority of the competitive scene would have to get a minimum of two 2wd models to deal with low grip, regular grip and the very high grip.

This then filters down to the regional scene. A few drivers will have different models, then others wanting to be competitive will follow suite.

Would drivers be willing to stand at the agm to propose stickering chassis at sanctioned events, or allow the use of multiple chassis to be used at a single event, which would mean youd need two - three cars for 2wds including all electronics, then a 4wd with equipment.

With the economy how it is, would this drive away drivers from the competitive scene or is it not an issue at all?

These are general thoughts and I thought a general discussion over it would be interesting.

[FrogPrince82]

+1 - But I was shot down for suggesting this on another thread :(

I also think there is merit in the idea of possibly running set turn motor, especially for the lower age groups and maybe up to regionals too. Mainly for the benefits of cost, safety and improving racing.

At the end of the Day it's all about COSTS and people with the most money or don't pay for their racing (Team Drivers) will have every type of car that's available to them and use whats suitable for that track including weather conditions and why not, its what I would do.

Is this why controlled tyres were brought into the rules to stop people having every type of tyre on the market and to save costs....?

My 50p worth and suggestion is at BRCA sanction events the chassis is marked (like the worlds) and that chassis can only be run at that event, this at least stops people switching cars during an event so for instance if it rains or its slippy in the morning the car chosen for high grip will not work so well and vice versa. Just a thought!

[Cream]

The thing is, out of the national scene id say ( being generous here ) 5-10 drivers get their equipment for free. Then we have the drivers with discounted equipment - even that isnt a huge discounted price. So the majority of the competitive scene would have to get a minimum of two 2wd models to deal with low grip, regular grip and the very high grip.

This then filters down to the regional scene. A few drivers will have different models, then others wanting to be competitive will follow suite.

Would drivers be willing to stand at the agm to propose stickering chassis at sanctioned events, or allow the use of multiple chassis to be used at a single event, which would mean youd need two - three cars for 2wds including all electronics, then a 4wd with equipment.

With the economy how it is, would this drive away drivers from the competitive scene or is it not an issue at all?

These are general thoughts and I thought a general discussion over it would be interesting.

It won't happen for the very reason you have posted above, The cost of running multiple cars is way to much for most drivers.
It's only going to bother those that are looking for that 10th of a second, and even that is debatable compared to learning and setting your car up properly.

[PaulRotheram]

Its already happening! Ive seen numerous drivers with images of three seperate cars ready to go, including people at our club! People will do it, are doing it and will consider it even more to do so.

[SlowOne]

Whenever technology changes, there is a period of shaking out until things settle at a new level. Although I no longer race the class, my view is that you can either sit back and enjoy the ride until the train reaches its destination, or you can put the train back in the siding by changing the rules.

I gave up on 2WD Off-Road because the tracks became launch ramps and my inability to control a car accurately in flight led to too much damage, and too many days when my driving was no longer any fun. To that end I agree with Origineel on what the class needs to get back to its roots as a lot of fun, rewarding of driving skill and not a horsepower or battery war.

By staying on the train and only making a move once it reaches its destination you invest when the answer is clear and in the meantime update as you see fit. The danger here is that as each car suits different tracks, it might never truly settle down.

By changing the rules you define the class forever, just as the 'solid rear axle' rule did for 12th cars. Basically, 2WD Off Road and 12th On-Road cars remained basically unchanged since the RC10 and the RC12L. The 2WD Off-Rod car remained so by convention, the 12th car by rule-setting.

To put the train back in the siding a rule could be passed that said something like "the drive motor must at least (say) 20mm behind a line drawn between the centrelines of the rear wheel bearings. The drive motor must be centered within (say) 15mm of the centreline of the chassis." There may be other definitions required, but my point is that be simply defining where the drive motor is to be positioned the train can be parked... immobilised.

In my view, 2WD has no future that is reflective of its attraction to those wanting to race a class where costs are low, and winning is a reward for good driving, whilst this is going on. It might be a long wait for this to shake out, and what damage might be done to participating numbers in that time. Whilst it will need a lot of lobbying, and some skill in constructing, I would propose a rule to put the motor back in the back and get on with the job of promoting a class that is one of RC's best kept secrets. Just my thoughts...

[mark christopher]

I would propose a rule to put the motor back in the back and get on with the job of promoting a class that is one of RC's best kept secrets. Just my thoughts...

which would make probably 80% of uk racers cars illegal!

[PaulRotheram]

Similar to the rule change to supastox which makes alot of escs redundant.. anything is possible!

[mark christopher]

Similar to the rule change to supastox which makes alot of escs redundant.. anything is possible!

difference is the racers would vote on the proposal pdw mentioned, the esc blinky list in 12th was not a proposal!

[DEXtrain]

Amen to the jump thing! It has gotten out of proportion totally - imagine someone just starting in competition seeing the last Worlds Videos....
The first thing they are thinking is hell i couldnt even get around the track , cleanly let alone be competitive with moderate ammounts of money and no big sponsors....

Watch 2005 worlds videos and then see 2013 worlds vids...
For Gods shake come to your senses... More broken parts means more spare parts bought i short term but in the end why bother when even if you dont crash hard everything gets sloppy and worn out so fast?
When even Tebo cant make clean runs with a car that is slightly off , forget it for the rest...

As for the 3 car thing and the motor far forward 2wds...tyres - lots of them for anything than pure astro tracks...and lets see who can keep up spending ...

I then wonder why 1989 worlds videos with only 1 jump still had exciting racing and very few broken cars...

What's the point of a 1/10th scale car jumping 2-3 meters in the air anyway? Does it correspond to anything real?






The future of 2WD... It depends a lot on what the tracks are like I suppose. It seems smooth/flat, big, demanding jumps (a lot of them too) and high grip are the trend, and as such we see more cars that are well adapted to that. Particularly big venues are being maintained meticulously, and since the high level drivers don't visit small venues as often it's no wonder more and more brands develop a car suited to those high grip conditions.

As long as the trend continues of making buggy racing touring car driving with jumps, we'll see more of these cars about :lol: I can even imagine we'll start seeing new geometry for the cars and more emphasis on aerodynamics (which includes shocks and suspension, not just the bodyshell).

Just my opinion about buggy racing in general, I'd rather see the development the other way around. The lower speeds of driving on low-medium bite with easy jumps give a lot of benefits:

- It's safer for marshals.
- It's cheaper because your car breaks down less easily.
- The gaps between cars will be smaller (in distance), making it more thrilling to watch.
- Overtaking is easier because you have less distance to gain to your opponent to overtake.
- You're fighting each other instead of grip roll and the right flow through a jump section.
- (Close) racing becomes easier for lower level drivers because you don't need ninja reflexes - plus I think losing the rear end won't cost as much time as grip rolling.
- Contact between cars results in less drama.

That said, the most important thing for will remain to be the fun factor and atmosphere at the trackside, and that's highly enjoyable with the buggy crowd! :thumbsup:

[Tom3012]

Hard to tell, and lots if valid points!

I personally have way too many cars! Granted i dont run them all just hate selling most of them! We spend so much and never see any of it back :lol:

Currently ive got 3 2wd cars set up and ready to go, TM2, TC02C and a TC02... I do change cars from time to time depending on the track conditions, but i didnt go out and buy them all at once, i had one, a new model came out, bought that then the latest (TM2) came out so i got that...

My three cars all use the same wheels/tires so im not buying tires for each, just a set if wets, and a set of dry, replace when worn out...

It all comes down to the individual at the end of the day, i do quite like the idea of a restricted class though, we used to do dirt spec, 19 turn motors, the racing was soo close! Brilliant fun! But again, its down to cost, motors were £30 then :o

[bert digler]

How about allowing the new horizon gyro and traction control would that level the playing field:)

[Richard Lowe]

IMO it's not the car designs or manufacturers people should be looking at, the current trend for experimenting with new chassis layouts is more down to the track surfaces we're running on these days. Take away the stupid velcro like astroturf that seems to get put down now when tracks get resurfaced and you eliminate the need for different chassis layouts.

From what I've seen of the mid-mid motor 2wd's they're only any use on the highest grip surfaces and are very track specific, if the grip isn't quite high enough they can make good qualifying cars but aren't very good 'racing' cars. You have to drive very swoopy lines and keep your speed up, much like when 4wd's started moving from one way front diffs to full time 4wd it can be very easy with a traditional mid motor to point and squirt up the inside of someone driving a mid-mid.

Personally I don't think there should be any rules introduced to specifically rule out any potential 2wd layout, as long as it only has two wheels driven let your imagination cook up anything!

[kartstuffer]

Just make 2 classes1. Two wheel drive ,motor behind driven wheels.
2. Two wheel drive open.
There is nothing to stop them racing together , but where numbers dictate have separate races!

[Colin Kirkham]

bin 2wd and go 4wd then...........:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I think it should be a simple thing.....

2wd is 2wd....... no matter what the layout, its up to the driver/owner of said 2wd to decide what suits best.

BUT

The "choose" a chassis/car at the start of the meeting and that's the one you drive regardless is a good idea, to stop the things mentioned above.

Personally I run 4wd mainly. But in 2wd I generally have one buggy so does not matter to me.

The top drivers, on whatever track and conditions will drive them well and do well regardless.

The normal drivers with spare dosh will keep on buying what the trend is and change frequently.

Normal drivers with out the spare dosh or just in it for the fun and challenge will buy what they want and race it. keeping the cost down for whatever reason.

There are as many choices as there are different drivers/needs so as long as people continue to race, the rules are not made to anal as to deter the club fun racer, then 2wd and 4wd will continue and choices will be made.

I hope the "rules" and classes are not complicated to deter people. like 3 classes for 2wd, then 4wd, then a blinky class as well. just gets to much.

2wd

4wd

SC

Stadium

Done.................. off road wise.:thumbsup:


Totally totally agree.... Keep it simple :thumbsup:

[h0m3sy]

Buy what you can afford, race it and have fun. That's what it's all about ;)

[AC199]

As far as I can see these arguments are pretty invalid, I shall do my best to explain why.

99% of people who race RC in this country are club racers. We roll up, talk crap for 5 hours at a race meeting, watch the local hotshot destroy the competition then we go home to our lives and talk the same shit here on oOple. We'll never win anything, and if you're deluded enough to think that having 3 2wd cars is going to make such a massive difference that you'll suddenly be beating Craggy and the other guys at nationals, you deserve to pay out the 2 grand it'll cost to kit those cars out so you can pick any of them up and race them at any given time.

I bought 1 2wd car. It'll do me on dirt, astro, carpet, polished wood and i'll have to strip and change the motor layout to go to RHR for my twice yearly fix. Thats fine cos I know that Daz at York will still kick my arse round the track while he's fighting with Rich Lowe for the win. I'm fine with that, I know my limits.

As far as the evolution of 2wd goes, its going to continue as it is, as long as companies want to make money, they'll keep producing hybrid cars to keep you spending.

Thats what companies do after all...

[Dudders]

99% of people who race RC in this country are club racers. We roll up, talk crap for 5 hours at a race meeting, watch the local hotshot destroy the competition then we go home to our lives and talk the same shit here on oOple. We'll never win anything.

Genius! :lol:

[Lee1972]

As far as I can see these arguments are pretty invalid, I shall do my best to explain why.

99% of people who race RC in this country are club racers. We roll up, talk crap for 5 hours at a race meeting, watch the local hotshot destroy the competition then we go home to our lives and talk the same shit here on oOple. We'll never win anything, and if you're deluded enough to think that having 3 2wd cars is going to make such a massive difference that you'll suddenly be beating Craggy and the other guys at nationals, you deserve to pay out the 2 grand it'll cost to kit those cars out so you can pick any of them up and race them at any given time.

I bought 1 2wd car. It'll do me on dirt, astro, carpet, polished wood and i'll have to strip and change the motor layout to go to RHR for my twice yearly fix. Thats fine cos I know that Daz at York will still kick my arse round the track while he's fighting with Rich Lowe for the win. I'm fine with that, I know my limits.

As far as the evolution of 2wd goes, its going to continue as it is, as long as companies want to make money, they'll keep producing hybrid cars to keep you spending.

Thats what companies do after all...


Thank that about sums things up :thumbsup:

[J'MM'N]

Being old school and ever the optimist, I say bin them all and go back to good old rear motor cars:) Cars would be on a more level par, much more fun and you only need one variation to race. Also only having one 2wd car to maintain, would allow more people to do a second class like 4wd, which is very under subscribed these days.

As a side note, if people feel they need to have three different 2wd cars, then this could push people away from the class and they concentrate on 4wd anyhow. Two wheel drive won't stay the favoured class forever.

[Dudders]

Rear motor class would be good :D

[elvo]

We roll up, talk crap for 5 hours at a race meeting, ...

That's a conservative estimate :D

[paulj]

Its already happening! Ive seen numerous drivers with images of three seperate cars ready to go, including people at our club! People will do it, are doing it and will consider it even more to do so.

I don't have a strong opinion about limiting the design of 2wd cars but I do agree the 1 marked chassis rule per meeting would be a good idea.

There is a side to this that has not been mentioned - the newbie or potential newbie - we are all looking at this from the inside looking out.

What about the parent who brings a kid along that is interested in racing for the first time? Then they look at the drivers competing with three and sometime four cars all with top line kit, ready to go and decide that maybe junior should find another hobby or sport that involves less outlay to be able to compete. I'm not saying that any of it is necessary but just think what it looks like to an outsider thinking of starting up.
Back in the day it was the 6+ boxes of nicad batteries and expensive all singing and dancing chargers/dischargers, motor lathes, and constant rebuilds of said motors that put off several people that I knew that were interested. Racing is never going to be cheap in any scale but why make it potentially more confusing with ever more classes and stacks of gear, much of which will sit on standby, just in case?

[dodgydiy]

when it gets too slippy for your mid motor and you want more grip, just stick an extra weight on the back, you want a more aggressive car just stick an extra weight further forward, no need for more than one chassis layout. i can get my homebrew mid motor round a track quicker than i can get my old b4 round the track anyday, its far more stable and predictable, even on very low grip.

[emtee]

Hhmm... as a guy who races 2WD leccy at club level I see the same guys with the same cars winning in the same way week in week out... it doesn't seem to matter what motor or battery config they use, they are just good drivers and could prob win if we all had the same anyways...

The computer that records the laps usually seems to sort the wheat from the chaff in the way it produces the heat and final sheets... it doesn't care if the cars are all the same or all different...

For me a single marque and config is immaterial, but I would like to see everyone using the same config just to stop the manufacturers from producing .1's .2's etc of the same car, with little change but with big bucks profits for the luxury of being able to say "oh yeh, I've got the .2(or whatever)it's waaaay better.."

Motor behind the rear wheels and battery straight down the chassis is the only 2WD for me... long may it live..!

[PaulRotheram]

Its great to see all the varied reply's, both on here, facebook and texts ive had! There seems to be lacking responses from the sharp end of the hobby, however.

The general spirit of mid table to fun lovers of the hobby are all on the same boat, progression is of no importance, however its enjoyable to see -fun is mostly important. Which is what I agree with hugely, if there's no fun, what's the point!

However what are peoples opinions of a national series, where one car may have a significant advantage over another on certain tracks, are you willing to buy said chassis, or just get on with it with what you have, or are you put off by the possibility of this happening?

Again, all of which is a general debate - I find it an interesting time in our hobby with a lot of options are coming around more than ever.

[Cody227]

I think you don't get what all these different chassis layouts are about. It's not only the difference in weight distribution but also a difference in weight transfer. When the motor lays parallell to the rear axis (like in a B4 or 22) the inertia of the rotor generates some kind of artificial weight transfer when you accelerate or decelerate, which affects the handling massively. Even the difference beetween a mm3 and mm4 configuration is a night-and-day difference. But personally i don't see any future for mm4 and midmotor cars on low traction. The only reason that you can drive for example a x6 cubed on low bite is, that it has so much weight transfer to the rear, but at the same time it looses all his rear grip as soon as you break, so you can not drive clear lines and have to point-and-shoot

[DCM]

However what are peoples opinions of a national series, where one car may have a significant advantage over another on certain tracks, are you willing to buy said chassis, or just get on with it with what you have, or are you put off by the possibility of this happening?

Again, all of which is a general debate - I find it an interesting time in our hobby with a lot of options are coming around more than ever.

Aaaaah, right, the way I see it is this then, Paul, if you are competing at National level, and being competitive, then I think having a second chassis (maybe not with esc, motor and receiver in) isn't going to be such an impact on budget once you factor in fuel costs, lodgings, food, wheels/tyres, maintenance, entrance fee etc.

But as has been said, I think for most, finding the right chassis is more important than having all three layouts at hand.

[fidspeed]

99% of people who race RC in this country are club racers. We roll up, talk crap for 5 hours at a race meeting, watch the local hotshot destroy the competition then we go home to our lives and talk the same shit here on oOple. We'll never win anything,


class act this fella should be primeminister :thumbsup:

[JohnM]

The only reason that you can drive for example a x6 cubed on low bite is, that it has so much weight transfer to the rear, but at the same time it looses all his rear grip as soon as you break, so you can not drive clear lines and have to point-and-shoot

I'm not sure whose X-6 Cubed you've tried, but mine certainly doesn't lose it's rear end under breaking, in fact I was able to keep up with some of the 4wd cars in the rain where I race.

[JohnM]

However what are peoples opinions of a national series, where one car may have a significant advantage over another on certain tracks, are you willing to buy said chassis, or just get on with it with what you have, or are you put off by the possibility of this happening?



I think if your prepared to spend the money to do the Nats, a second, maybe third car won't be too much of an issue (TC boys will have a "wet" car), unless of course you drive for someone who doesn't have the whole range of lay-outs for you to use.

[mark christopher]

I only do off road for fun, im not going to beat the top guys, I go to have fun, race my mates and watch how the top lads do it, to me its an easy choice, rear motor low grip, mid motor middle of the pack, midmid high grip, ill take the mid and it will still outdrive my skills, but I will be having fun

[tumpier]

The above statement is totally rite,the fun and banter is what it's all about for me,.......

[SlowOne]

Going back to the point about the inside looking out, here's the outside looking in...

I always liked 2WD because it was relatively cheap to buy and run, and the range of tyres needed was pretty small, especially with your rules about 'control' tyres for the rear. I don't have a car now, but let's suppose I wanted to come back into the class as a fun thing at my local Regionals.

What car would I buy? Rear, mid, front? How would I know which one would give me a bit of fun to break up the other five hours of talking crap and watching the local hotshot. What would I have to do, buy all three to make my mind up? How would I know if one would not be better than the other for me? The likelihood is I would not bother until it all shook out and one car was clearly better than another. I definitely would not buy one while all this was going on in fear of making an expensive mistake or getting something that for me, was a dog to drive and spoiled my enjoyment of talking crap for five hours...

Imagine then someone who does have the cash to join in, but can't see the need to buy three cars to find the one that works for them. At times when technology is changing fast participation drops - it has happened in every class since RC began.

So as an outsider looking in, this is a reason not to join this class. If that worries anyone then you have some work to do. If not, then carry on the intellectual naval gazing! :)

[Andyp]

What car would I buy? Rear, mid, front?


If you were a returning racer to the class surely you would think to have a pop down your local club and check out what everyone else was racing and see what works, I'm sure someone would let you have a test drive maybe

Quiet a few cars have all the options in the box to run MM or RM so if you were just starting out whatever car you bought I'm sure would be upto the job of getting a beginner/returning racer racing reasonably competitive.

[emtee]

IMO watching the guys who race regionals, nationals and beyond makes you see the need for multi config chassis... if a particular config is good for a certain track it makes sense to have that advantage to keep the sponsors happy, but at a club meet it seems overkill.. I understand some use club meets for testing, but I think it boils down to what you want out of your Sunday morning for a lot of us..

Whilst there are manufacturers out there developement will always occur, it's just the way it is, end of... if you aspire to be a top driver you will buy the next new thing regardless just to attain your goal and get that 1/100th of a second victory...

BRCA legislators are the puppets here 'cos they set the spec for a particular class... if the BRCA allows something, then people will use it, simples... just you watch, it'll be fly by wire autonomous speedos or self righting chassis' next... or maybe even something to eliminate the human interface all together..you know, charge it up, put it down and return to your pit table for a 5 minute snooze..!! :p

[spennyy2k]

With regards to the point of using different cars at the same meeting I seem to remember it being in the rules that you had to finish a meeting with the same chassis you started with, this May have been dumped as it was some time ago.

[PaulRotheram]

As the schumacher KF has now been released and they have three cars for different track conditions. It is pretty much adament a competitive driver now needs a minimum of two cars. Three if you run on dirt/clay.

Will the release of this car and next in line the xray xb4 2wd, it really does seem this class is becoming an expensive one to be competitive in.

[Big G]

Just because 1 company makes 3 variations of their 2wd buggy does not mean you HAVE to buy 3 cars just to compete. If you have the money to do this then great, but it doesn't mean you have to or you'll just be bringing up the rear.

Look at the 2011 (I think, might be wrong there) nationals where Lee was up there fighting for the wins with his rear motor'd car on these apparent high grip astro tracks. I'm pretty sure I've also seen others take wins with the B4 against SV's, etc when apparently you had to have a mid-motor car to be competitive.

[Jamesk]

I think ill still use my rear motor 2WD tamiya. Its just to0 much money for these options, just looking at the options for the 201, which is ment to keep it competive you need big bore shocks around £70, new long wheel base conversion £ 130 then to go mid £80 plus the price of the car to start with. Then there are many battery options now too. I have seen drivers with stick, saddle and stubby batteries in there kit just to play around with the balance.
Is it time to bring in a limited stanadard class and a modified class like we
had in the 80's when there was a 27turn class. (apart from a few cheating demon motors that had 19t internals)

Jk

[Dave Dodd]

Imo the mid motored car will be fine in 90% of all race conditions, from damp grass right through to bone dry super fast astro/carpet and even dirt. It's just a case of setting your car up accordingly.
:)

[XzedamX]

Wahoo, what a thread!!
If Schumacher have made a car that you could give the three motor position ( rear, mid, front) you're gonna call them genius!!

Now remember the time when every one got rear motor some car would be better on dirt and other on astro but they have the same chassi layout...

Other thing, with different driving style a same car on the same track with the same set up could win or loose.

(i just buy a sv2 last week :lol:)

[XzedamX]

Some other thing:
- in france we got a standard 2wd category with 13.5 motor
- I don't know how many category you got at our national championship but in France we got 4wd, 2wd and standard 2wd, ST and SC 2wd. So the question is what it cost more three 2wd cars or one 4wd and 2wd and ST cars?
Whatever how many 2wd cars you have it cost you less in tires and maintenance.

[martgifford]

IMO its best just to have 1 car and drive it a lot. I have made the mistake of buying cars and selling them, using them for a month, and then buying a new one. Just as Schumacher has three cars does not mean you need three cars. I think the best way to get remotely good (which I am not) is to buy a car, stick with it, as the transition between cars seems to stifle learning. Maybe I have gone off topic.:lol:

[traffman]

Look how many cars are out there, this is a reflection of a market where companies are investing there research an development in.
You should not be looking at why there are so many cars out there , you should be happy that we have an industry that is spending wisely.

If you want to see a company that marks out niches from no where look at BMW.

[dodgydiy]

probably the only reason we are now seeing different chassis layouts used on different surfaces is the sheer amount of power we now have. it wouldnt make as much difference without the need to put down the amount of power we are using. a 13.5 brushless is probably quicker than anything that was used in the early nineties when virtually everything was rear motor