F1 GP SPA [Archive] - oOple.com Forums

_JP_

07-09-2008, 05:02 PM

Seems like the FIA have it in for McLaren AGAIN!

was a nail biting last few laps for sure.

Although the McLaren driver appeared to lift off and was repassed by Raikkonen on the exit of the corner, the stewards ruled that he had gained an advantage by short-cutting the circuit.

"The stewards, having received a report from the race director and having met with the drivers and team managers involved, have...determined a breach of the regulations has been committed by the competitor and impose the penalty referred to," said an FIA statement.

Hamilton was deemed to have "cut the chicane and gained an advantage", thereby breaching Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.

Did he really have much choice!?

mattym0310

07-09-2008, 05:33 PM

Stewards side.
I think what they are getting at is the fact that although Hamilton had no choice as to cutting the corner, as he was coming out of the second part of the chicane onto the straight, hamilton didnt give Raikonnen a clear advantage [the mclaren being behind the ferrari, as it would have done exiting the corner normally] until after they went over the start/finish line where Hamilton had to move anyway to get a clear run at Corner 1.

Hamiltons side of the argument.
He had no choice as to where he went mid corner due to how Raikonnen positioned his car [which he is entitled to do] and so Hamilton cut the corner meaning he cannot take advantage of the cut. When exitting the corner Hamilton only lifted off a slight bit, and so he didn't get an advantage. Following this he was behind Raikonnen before making his move on the next corner.

My opinion.
I think there was no problem in him cutting the corner. But, Although hamilton did give space to make up for the corner cut, I do agree that he could have lifted off a bit more to give Raikonnnen a clearer advantage to avoid an investigation into it because he could have still made the same move on turn 1 if he had given more room to his opposition. I do however disagree with the penalty and think there shouldn't be one because Raikonnen still crashed out and so there would have been no change in order whether Hamilton had left the bigger gap or not.

Brewer95

07-09-2008, 05:36 PM

he didnt have any choice on where to go. It was either cut the corner or slam into the side of Kimi!!

The whole thing is a farce as Hamilton did what he was suposed to do and surrendered the posistion back.

Lets just hope that mclaren have enough guts to apeal against the decison.

Garry Spice

07-09-2008, 05:38 PM

from what i`m led to believe Ferrari are the only team on the fia board:thumbdown:.hmm,im`m sure f1 is rigged in there favour.its not right and they wonder why people dont watch it!!! there are so many decisions that go their way it untrue.should we start an hate the fia/ferrari campaign??:thumbsup:

mattym0310

07-09-2008, 05:52 PM

I hope McLaren campaign aswell. If Ferrari weren't involved in said incident then I bet there wouldn't have even been a campaign :mad:

footey

07-09-2008, 06:00 PM

im gutted in lewis been dropped to 3rd BUT in my veiw its not the corner cut what was the problem it was the way he let him back past he should have just waited even after turn 1 as he was so much quicker he would have got him and then there would have been no investergation

qatmix

07-09-2008, 06:04 PM

I'm a lifelong F1 and Ferrari Fan, but the course of the last 2 years has made me feel ashamed of the absolute bias and veiled corruption in F1.

Todays ruling is a joke, especially after the also rather strange decision from the post race incident after the last grandprix in which ferrari got off breaking the rules in the pits..

Hamilton deserved the win fair and square, its a joke.

xjr14

07-09-2008, 06:17 PM

...a shame they "stole" hamiltons win! was all fair on track in my opinion. mclaren should be VERY careful with their actions right now, I would not protest if I were them! incidents in the past showed that protesting can easily worsen the punishment! -> 1 race ban, 10 places grid-drop etc. ....

jono83

07-09-2008, 06:26 PM

its stupid cause Raikkonen didn't even finish the race in the end so cutting the chicane didn't make a difference

DCM

07-09-2008, 06:29 PM

as much as I am a Hamilton fan, I think that if he didn't slow enough to allow Raikonen a fair lead, and, if anything, over following Raikonen through the chicane, he found hinself far closer to Raikonen, allowing the overtaking manouvre....

I don't think it deserved a 25 second penalty, also, the fact that Raikonen also binned it... and it just so happens to bring Massa within 2 point.... all feels to much like puppets on strings.

Southwell

07-09-2008, 06:36 PM

Unfortunately for Hamilton Kimi is now in a backup role and can help Massa, Heikki isn't in the same league at the moment so Lewis is on his own to win with the FIA against him, joy. Then they wonder why people think F1 is a crock.

DCM

07-09-2008, 06:46 PM

I was chatting to a Ferrari nut this evening, and even he says, it stinks.....

glypo

07-09-2008, 07:12 PM

I'm just not going to watch F1 again.

Sad but what is the point when the governing body is so clearly corrupt, who could possibly fix the thing that is supposed to make it fair?

telboy

07-09-2008, 07:59 PM

its stupid cause Raikkonen didn't even finish the race in the end so cutting the chicane didn't make a difference

My sentiments exactly, They've penalised hamilton and given the win to someone that wasn't even involved in the incident.

Basically they're favouring ferrari once again.They broke the rules in valencia and the driver got a fine....big deal!

If you cause an 'unavoidable accident' (as koveleinen did) and you get penalised....you 'avoid' an accident, and you get penalised?! Whats that all about?

They can't say that Hamilton didn't give Kimi enough of an advantage, because as they entered the chicane, Hamilton was actually ahead until they got to the apex. So technically hamilton DID hinder himself to give the possision back.

Its ruined what was an awesome last 4 laps...once again!

It all stinks. Anything to stop Ferrari from whingeing.

What has our boy got to do to win this championship?!

I think Mclaren are right to appeal.

footey

07-09-2008, 08:03 PM

sign for ferrari tel:woot:

telboy

07-09-2008, 08:09 PM

true, but I think he's already mentioned that he's going to spend his whole F1 career at Mclaren.:thumbdown:

Bad mistake if you ask me. They're good when they're good, but when they're bad......well......

....all I'll say is, remember the time that Blundell and Brundle raced for them?

I think it would do him good to change teams at some point.

terry.sc

07-09-2008, 10:15 PM

What a joke, what advantage did Hamilton have when he had let Raikonnen back past. Where's the stewards enquiry for all the very illegal weaving Kimi did to stop Lewis getting past, when Lewis supposedly had an advantage?
Most importantly why has the investigation come about when Charlie Whiting told Ron that Lewis letting Kimi past was okay, when the race director is supposed to be the one that passes any investigations to the stewards.

So we have a race which ends with proper racing and drivers battling for position, then the FIA decide they don't want any of that happening again. I'm just not going to watch F1 again.I feel the same. I expect viewing figures for the Monza GP will be a lot smaller than for this race.

nick oliver

07-09-2008, 10:21 PM

Well its a poor decison,

But i couldnt care i just won hell of alot of money with massa winning! :)

bigoggy

08-09-2008, 05:50 AM

i dont know what the FIA have against hamilton but i dont think they will ever let him win the championship:mad::thumbdown:. i'm starting to think F1 is as fake as american wrestling:o

RickRick

08-09-2008, 07:52 AM

why didn't kimi get a penalty when he ploughed into that car a monaco (force india??)

why didn't kimi get a penalty for hitting hamilton twice, once to push him wide, when lewis took the escape road, once running into the back of him at the next corner.

why wasn't kimi penalised for running off the track, staying outside the bounds of the track, and using that to gain a large speed advantage over lewis, who got back onto the track as soon as he could

Brcause it's a red car

niggs98

08-09-2008, 08:05 AM

think i might paint my pred red :woot:.................... it is a joke. i stopped taking an active interest with all the crap last year and i have other friends who are both mclaren and ferrari fans alike and after the crap of this weekend will be turning their attention to moto gp instead. like said previously f1 has become as fake as the wwf. shame really as its ment to be the best race series in the world. think itv, bbc and sky should get together and not even bother bidding for the rights to show it next time the contract comes up for renewal, lets see what the fia think of that when there is noone to watch it and noone to sponser it. GP2 was much better as they all want to race and win and every corner is like its their last corner. perhaps itv can concentrate more on that as the racing looked much more fun to watch

Garry Spice

08-09-2008, 08:31 AM

naths right...gp2 is a far better! least they try overtaking! at the rate f1 is going lewis should just walk away from it.now that would upset the applecart!

Northy

08-09-2008, 08:46 AM

Why are they changing the rules for next year - to improve the show and get more overtaking.

What do they do when someone 'has a go' in tricky conditions remember - throw the rule book at him.

BULLSHIT - that's what I say :mad:

G

Garry Spice

08-09-2008, 09:07 AM

shouldnt we all be putting this on an f1 forum? :thumbsup:

dave g

08-09-2008, 09:18 AM

northy get your sig changed.. :)

Chris Doughty

08-09-2008, 10:12 AM

at least the time penalty was applied after the race and could *in theory* be overturned.

Northy

08-09-2008, 10:17 AM

northy get your sig changed.. :)

Why? :confused:

G

Wraggy

08-09-2008, 10:18 AM

if i rememember right someone else did a similar move as hamilton about half way through the race as they also had no where to go ..
but nothing has been said about that one ...(cant remember who it was though)

Nick Goodall

08-09-2008, 10:45 AM

My sentiments exactly, They've penalised hamilton and given the win to someone that wasn't even involved in the incident.

Basically they're favouring ferrari once again.They broke the rules in valencia and the driver got a fine....big deal!

If you cause an 'unavoidable accident' (as koveleinen did) and you get penalised....you 'avoid' an accident, and you get penalised?! Whats that all about?

They can't say that Hamilton didn't give Kimi enough of an advantage, because as they entered the chicane, Hamilton was actually ahead until they got to the apex. So technically hamilton DID hinder himself to give the possision back.

Its ruined what was an awesome last 4 laps...once again!

It all stinks. Anything to stop Ferrari from whingeing.

What has our boy got to do to win this championship?!

I think Mclaren are right to appeal.

Absolutely spot b***ock on that man - couldn't agree more with anything you're saying Tel!

Southwell

08-09-2008, 10:49 AM

I think a lot of it is aimed at Ron Dennis, he has a lot of enemies in the FIA i believe. Also the fact whenever things happen Ferrari don't like they threaten to leave, let them leave i say then maybe we can have fair racing instead of the shambles that happened yesterday.

Southwell

08-09-2008, 10:55 AM

Where was he to go? If he breaked he would of probably lost his wing.

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/109054.jpg

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/109057.jpg

AndyM

08-09-2008, 11:19 AM

Spot on Tel; couldn't agree more.

Also in the pics Southwell you can see that if he didn't cut the chicane he would of smashed into the side of Rhaikkonen and put them both out of the race.

Ridiculous in my opinion.

But it's done now...they're unlikely to overturn the penalty.

Kopite

08-09-2008, 11:24 AM

telboy

08-09-2008, 04:02 PM

Niggs, thing is, if sky, itv and the beeb said they wouldn't bid for it next time, it would suit bernie down to the ground, cos he wants it all to go to asia anyway, so that he can get millions from tobacco advertising.

Wraggy, that may have been Klein, as he too got a penalty (I think). But even that stinks too, cos he had nowhere to go when Koveleinen hit webber...oh hang on he's in a mclaren and he got a penalty too...ok he did hit webber, but I said when he got his penalty that, in the Mansell/Senna era, thing like that happened every race, and they just carried on with the races!

I did think it was a bit strange when Ron said that he'd spoken to charlie and he'd said it was fine.
But then I didn't think it was too good a sign when Hamilton was getting booed on the podium.:thumbdown: But Belgium has always been Ferrari biassed.

They'll leave the hearing 'til after the seasons ended, and if it gives Hamilton the championship to overturn it then things will stay as they are. But if Hamilton has no chance of getting the championship then they'll give him the win back.

SlowOne

08-09-2008, 08:07 PM

Spot on Terry. Instead of whining away on here, where the impact is about as much as a wet sponge tapped on a pane of bullet-proof glass, has anyone bothered to write to the FIA, or FOM, or anyone else in authority?

Who's written to the BBC and ITV and said they won't watch? Who's written to any of the Teams and said you won't buy merchandise? If you want things changed, hit them where it hurts. And this is not a forum (with due respects to Mr. and Mrs. Oople!) with anywhere near enough influence to change anything.

Terry, what odds are you offering for your predicted outcome? If they're reasonable, I'll take some action! :D

AmiSMB

08-09-2008, 08:18 PM

You can petition here:-

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?belgp08

phil c

08-09-2008, 08:31 PM

signed , hope it works :thumbsup:

rcfan

08-09-2008, 09:05 PM

Where was he to go? If he breaked he would of probably lost his wing.

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/109054.jpg

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/109057.jpg

Hm, admitting I´m somewhat of a ferrari fanboy (although not that much anymore since schumacher left) I think the penalty is ok. It´s too hard no question, but imho hamilton did indeed gain an advantage. Raikonnen was in the lead and so in the right to defend his line and position. The one behind him has to care for himself an make sure not to crash the leading car. So Hamilton should have breaked and not crash into kimi. Which is whar he did. But imagine there was a wall and he couldn´t cut the schicane. He would have lost a lot of time because his overtaking attempt failed. Well in this case there was the possibility to cut and he did gain time and not loose time. And only because of this he was in the position to overtake,

So I think 10 seconds or so would have been a good penalty. Putting him on 3rd place is like disqualifying him and ruining a teriffic race.

telboy

08-09-2008, 10:30 PM

The one behind him has to care for himself an make sure not to crash the leading car

You mean like Kimi did to Hamilton when they got to the hairpin?:lol:

The wall thing is not really a valid point, as I'm sure if the track was lined with walls, then I think Kimi would have given more room, knowing that he could also take himself out of the race if he did that sort of manouvre. He knew Hamilton could take to the run off area, which is why he squeezed him out.

matdodd

08-09-2008, 10:31 PM

Hamilton was the faster car in the conditions he was on Raikonnen & it was a fair attempt at a pass, yes he cut the corner but how many times has that happened in GP's with out a penalty! He let Raikonnen through & was 4 mph slower than him across the line so he had no advantage other than bigger balls into the next corner! Where he simply braked later & then got hit which doesn't matter as it was a red car that did something wrong. F1 is a joke & totally corrupt.

terry.sc

09-09-2008, 01:46 AM

think itv, bbc and sky should get together and not even bother bidding for the rights to show it next time the contract comes up for renewal, lets see what the fia think of that when there is noone to watch it and noone to sponser it. That's kind of what's happened. ITV have cancelled their contract with F1 two years early, which is why Bernie has had no choice but to give it to the BBC for next year as it has to be on terrestrial TV for the sake of the sponsors. The idiots still paid for it though.

Well great, Hamiltons offence was "Breach of Article 30.3" which states "During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track" so Mclaren can't really appeal as it's obvious to all that he left the track - but then so did most of the field at some point including Raikonnen going the long way round Pouillon on the runoff which clearly gained him an advantage.

Lewis "Cut the chicane and gained an advantage", which he then immediately gave back.:eh?: Don't know why some people in F1 forums suggest Lewis would have been 4 car lengths behind Raikonnen if he'd followed him through the chicane when Kimi was driving like an old woman in the rain - if Lewis had followed him he would more likely have nailed the back of Kimis car than seen Kimi pull away. I still can't understand where you gain an advantage by slowing down to let the car past compared with accelerating up to it from behind - if Lewis had stayed behind he would have been even faster into la Source.:eh?:

Yet Raikonnen hasn't been investigated for the much more dangerous move passing Hamilton under yellows when they came across Rosbergs car coming back on to the track, nor for the two moves in front of Hamilton when trying to block him.:thumbdown:

I think I'll go watch WWE, at least they don't pretend the result isn't fixed.

niggs98

09-09-2008, 07:14 AM

That's kind of what's happened. ITV have cancelled their contract with F1 two years early, which is why Bernie has had no choice but to give it to the BBC for next year as it has to be on terrestrial TV for the sake of the sponsors. The idiots still paid for it though.
.

what a shame the bbc didnt have the balls to just say no we cant be bothered with it. bernie and his team would of been kicked straight out and f1 would of then been given the shake up it needed to become fun again rather than a follow the leader and show of a nice car precession that it has become.

bring back the old banger racing opps i mean touring cars, at least that was fun to watch

mattym0310

09-09-2008, 06:11 PM

He may not have got the penalty if he just followed Raikonnen through the next hairpin, then bizzed past him after. It was probably cos he was closer behind Raikonnen than he would've been normally, which gave a greater opportunity to outbrake Kimi into the hairpin. And who's to say that Kimi would've crashed out if that incident hadn't occured?

I'm not saying it's still right to dish out a penalty, and i'm sure you'll all start having a go at me for saying it, but they are valid points.

Either way, you're all right, the sport is corrupt :thumbdown:

I agree, Hamilton did get an advantage because by the time kimi had got passed him they were going pretty much the same speed and so Hamilton had no ground to make up coming out of the corner as he would if he followed the ferrari through.
Hamiltons overtake going into the hairpin was a great manouveur, but if he had just waited until after turn one I think he would have got away penalty free. It's a real shame because Hamilton drove a great race catching Kimi up and overtaking him/battling on the penultimate lap. It was a really good race to watch but all this business with the stewards has some what ruined it.
All this said, Hamiltons penalty was unfair to say the least. As Terry said, Ferrari did more than enough things eligible for penaltys yet because they drive red cars they dont get one! They shoudln't have taken Hamiltons win from him!

All the points about Charlie and how he said it was alright, it isn't charlies decision which is final. As Ron Dennis said in his interview, he asked charlie and knew that this would only be as a guide line.

mattym0310

09-09-2008, 06:58 PM

I was wrong about my last comment regarding Charlie and the stewards reassuring mclaren

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/sep/09/lewishamilton.formulaone

telboy

09-09-2008, 08:13 PM

The thing is, its all irrelevant as hamilton would have got past raikonen anyway, so I think its just sour grapes by ferrari who lost the race..1. because Kimi piled it into the barrier...and 2. Massa just wasn't fast enough when the rain came.

Ferrari knew it would be to Lewis's advantage if it rained, so they got the face on when they lost and had the repair bill for Kimi's car from kwik-fit!:p

Hopefully Mclaren will have already put all the facts above on paper to take to court with them, and hopefully get it overturned.

twisty

10-09-2008, 10:14 AM

Blatently cut n pasted from another forum
-------------------------------------------

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glypo

10-09-2008, 12:21 PM

Twisty that is awesome :lol::lol:

Nice find :thumbsup:

telboy

10-09-2008, 12:31 PM

Sweet.

That basically explains how the 'FIA' have run F1 since the 70's.:thumbsup:
Wicked.:lol:

bigoggy

10-09-2008, 02:17 PM

twisty that is abolute genious. :lol::lol::lol:. also signed the petition

phil c

10-09-2008, 09:12 PM

twisty that is exelent:woot: , and unfortunately true :thumbdown:

TRIOXER

10-09-2008, 09:20 PM

never a truer word spoken in jest!
:p

DCM

10-09-2008, 09:48 PM

I read the ITV-F1 take on it, and without saying it, they have basicaly said that the FIA have unintentionaly(intentionaly) made themselves look corrupt, that McClaren had twice asked race control if they are happy with what Hamilton has done, and agreed he gave enough to be within the rules.

But the juxt of it is, that they can't say whether or not that Hamilton gained an advantage, as when they crossed the line, Raikonen was 4MPH faster, and witht he changing grip levels, did hamilton have enough to make the move, as these are all what-ifs, the course marshals didn't have a reason to judge on something that couldn't be judged... leaving the FIA looking like it was favouring.....

Plot writers would be wealthy if they could think this stuff up

gazbaz2

11-09-2008, 12:14 AM

Hammy was the faster driver, especialy when it started to rain, the fact of the matter is that ok hammy got in front when he was pushed into the "run off", but he then slowed down to let him pass then chased and over took him, and doing that it shows hammy was quicker and the car was better in the wet than kimi's,
LOL, and anyway kimi put his into the barrier lol :p:lol::p:lol::p which i thought was absolutely class:lol::lol::lol:
Massa won on default, although massa was driving very well like i must say:thumbsup:

telboy

11-09-2008, 12:19 AM

So basically they had no idea and no proof as to wether or not hamilton had an advantage.

...so they gave him a penalty anyway.:eh?::confused:

It just does your haed in, cos when ferrari broke the rules last time out (and I'd consider theirs as being more dangerous...ei. the pit lane thing..oh and they actually ran one of their own pit crew over too!) the stewards were considering a 10 place drop for the next race. Leaving them with the win that they had just achieved...but it ended up being a 10,000 fine for massa.

They should have said 'yes, hamilton gained an advantage so we'll give him a 10 or 5 place drop for the next grid'. It would have attracted a lot less attention to the corruptness of the penalty system.