Control tyres on 4wd and 2wd Front wheels!!!

[Mike2222]

There are two proposals for discussion at this years 1/10 Off Road AGM on the 27th Oct. They are to introduce a control tyre for 2wd and 4wd front wheels at BRCA sanctioned events where control tyres are used. If passed then the choice of tyre will be down to a wet, and a dry tyre. No more choice between Staggered rib or minispike at the Nationals. Is this a good idea or not ?

[Big G]

strictly my own opinion, but a control tyre is a old rule which serves no purpose in today's racing. As long as the tyre is widely available to the general public it's allowed.

anything else goes.

This would stop the monopoly Schumacher has on the tyre industry.

[TARTMAN]

Personally I hate control tyre meetings.

yes it technically means the field is more equal but in reality that's horse poop.

unless its a sponsored events, but Schumacher, DBoots, BB etc, then tyres should be open to your own choice, most would run what works anyway.

I don't like the afore mentioned control by one make or another at events across the country.

Unless its a purely sponsored event then no, control tyres should NOT be used.:thumbsup:

[NeilRalph77]

Running low pro stag's on the front of a 4wd is gay! not to mention gay! simplest rule is standard profile on 4wd, least that still allows for high wall staggers and block pass

[Benh]

Over here in the EoE, without a control tyre, I am convinced we'll murder the series. 2013 saw Ballistic greens, whites, Schu mini pins and spikes in yellows and silvers; dBoot nano, terra and multi bytes in 'a', and Proline all do well. And sometimes not a clue what was best until you got there.

Oh, and those blocky astro things. Fronts were the above plus, Schu staggers, cut staggers; dBoot blockpass, and something Spindles dug out from 1782.

Whilst I can't pretend to know what's good for all, I am convinced its a good thing for us.

[AfroP]

I may not agree with the wording but i agree in principle with the above poster.
If you want to control tires then control it in a manner that states 4wd tires for 4wd cars and 2wd tires for 2wd cars.

I would however support anything to reduce the cost of tires.
If you got control tires at a discount i'd happily support them

[MikePimlott]

strictly my own opinion, but a control tyre is a old rule which serves no purpose in today's racing. As long as the tyre is widely available to the general public it's allowed.

anything else goes.

This would stop the monopoly Schumacher has on the tyre industry.

The hosting club nominates the tyre choice, so if you want to break the monopoly its down to them.

[Danny Harrison]

Keep it open imo, but only tyres in current production.

The available tyre rule is a bit of a grey area, some shops have old stock of tyres that are no longer made.

[spennyy2k]

You should be able to run any tyre you want, what should be limited if it isn't already is the number of sets you can use in a day

[SlowOne]

It is ten years since tyres were an open choice, so I am not sure if most drivers have experience of open tyres. I do. I used to carry four large containers of tyres to every meeting. For at least two Nationals of the six each year there was a new tyre I didn't have so I lost out and had to buy them after the event for the next one.

Tyres became obsolete before they wore out, and usually new tyres meant new wheels too as they were glued on and you never knew if the older tyres mught not suit the next track so you didn't take them off.

If you go back to open tyres history tells us that your costs will go up substantially, and the gap between the haves and have-nots will be even wider. Be careful what you wish (and vote) for...

[OneKiwi]

We use a controlled tyre, on turf its minispike yellow and tubby inserts. In 2wd the fronts are free choice.

We also have a limit of 2-3 sets per race. All marked and recorded.

Im newish (4 years in racing) and personally think that having a limited choice is pretty good. This reduced costs and you are able to plan a little more, packing and purchase etc.

I think its a good idea, saves money especially for the new people. Knowing that even the A finals are driven on the same sort of tyres as the rest and its a little more down to driving. One less thing to think about.

[Dudders]

The UK seem to have 3 main supplies, Schumacher, Ballistic and DBoots. Just name those in their Mini Spike Form.

[tony12795]

I actually think control tyres is the best rule that has come out in ages! If you stop and think about it 6 years ago my tyre box was massive full of wonderful array of tyres, now I only have really two types mainly (for the driven axel), this saves me money, time gluing, space and brings the competition closer.

I also agree with Mike above its the BRCA/Club that nominates tyres not the tyre manufacture. I actually think tyres should be limited to one compound and quantity per event, the same as most other motor sports. I think this will help level the competition even more and make for closer racing. It will also make people think that running a stupidly fast motor or driving balls out is necessary the best way to drive a track.

If these rules where brought in or thought about the BRCA could purchase one of bulk tyres order from a manufacture or shop, then this could be sold to the racer at a much better discount price (I actually think that the supplier could do all the distribution if they wanted the business). If the BRCA put a small mark-up on the purchase then this money could be put back into the sport/hobby.

just my 50p worth.

[trekkerkk]

personally I don't see this as a good thing to be honest:thumbdown:
this is a great way to tune the front end off your buggy and to have it taken away is not great I would vote against it,


trekkker

[Big G]

I actually think tyres should be limited to one compound and quantity per event, the same as most other motor sports. I think this will help level the competition even more and make for closer racing. It will also make people think that running a stupidly fast motor or driving balls out is necessary the best way to drive a track.

Would be good to do this as some people have been known to run 8 sets throughout the day! As a non-sponsored driver without deep pockets I'm lucky if I got a new set for every meeting above club level.

[sly]

I like foam tires, cheap and lasted me ages, but a club I went to a couple years back wouldn't let me run them as they have a tire sponsor for that series.

So if a club chooses control tires or to ban tires then the drivers have to respect the decision.

[Getpip]

+1 @ Tony & Slow ... Wise words.
I also like the idea of limiting the number of sets allowed.
:thumbsup:

[JohnM]

It is ten years since tyres were an open choice, so I am not sure if most drivers have experience of open tyres. I do. I used to carry four large containers of tyres to every meeting. For at least two Nationals of the six each year there was a new tyre I didn't have so I lost out and had to buy them after the event for the next one.

Tyres became obsolete before they wore out, and usually new tyres meant new wheels too as they were glued on and you never knew if the older tyres mught not suit the next track so you didn't take them off.

If you go back to open tyres history tells us that your costs will go up substantially, and the gap between the haves and have-nots will be even wider. Be careful what you wish (and vote) for...

I remember those days very well! I think most of the space in the boot of my car was filled with boxes of tyres back then.

Like BenH, I race in the East of England region & this year the tyres that were used in 4wd was just stupid at some meetings, at one I'm sure there were at least 8 different sorts of tyres on 10 cars in one of our heats:eh?: Success that day came down to if you had the right tyres & enough of them to last the day.

So I'd say yes to control tyres in the shape of a small list, but no to saying what you have to run on the front, for example, some peeps don't like mini spikes on the front of a car weather it's 2 or 4wd, others won't want to be told to run a stagger rib either.

[chrispattinson]

personally I don't see this as a good thing to be honest:thumbdown:
this is a great way to tune the front end off your buggy and to have it taken away is not great I would vote against it,


trekkker

I agree with the above.
In my years of racing, I've never considered the current rule to be a problem. It allows a narrow selection of rear tyres (almost controlled tyre), but the ability to tune the car to how you like it to drive with the front tyre (usually personal preference).
What has changed in the past year to require this change?
I don't think the rule is broken, so no need to fix?

[Mike2222]

Perhaps I should have made it clearer in my first post, we already have control tyres at Nationals, for the rear wheels only (except front wheel drive!)
The new proposals are to extend the rules to cover front wheels.
As JohnM points out the choice of front tyre could be very controversial.

[Phil Channon]

The proposals are:

Either
23.11 At Sanctioned events two types of control tyre will be adopted for the driven axle on 2WD cars and the front and rear axle of 4WD cars. The choice of tyres for the non-driven axle on 2WD cars will be free, subject to conforming to rule 23.7. The Section committee will approve the choice of control tyres.

Or
23.11 At Sanctioned events two types of control tyre will be adopted for the front and rear axles on 2WD cars and the front and rear axle of 4WD cars. The choice of tyres are, subject to conforming to rule 23.7. The Section committee will approve the choice of control tyres.


So depending on how the vote goes it could effect both classes or just 4wd.

The line I find of interest is that the "Section committee will approve the choice of control tyres". So even is the club nominate a tyre the committee could over-rule them.

[PaulRotheram]

I dont see front tyres as an issue. For me and the vast majority the choice is schumacher minispike or stagger rib / cut stagger (cut stagger being the preffered to me for the price difference)

When has someone ran something different as of late which has caused an upset?

As far as I can see, this proposal is being put forward just for the sake of change rather than fixing an issue, as currently there is no issue?!

Edit: seeing it as a 4wd POV I can see alot disliking the use of staggers on a 4wd front axle - is this a genuine problem, or just a prefference though?

[Jamie B4]

If it ain't broken dont fix it.

Can't really see the point of change.

Is there now a problem because of the level of grip? I saw more and more 4WD's running 2WD front last year but just clarify if this is allowed or not. 2WD fronts didn't seem too much of an issue

[Danny Harrison]

If it ain't broken dont fix it.

Can't really see the point of change.

Is there now a problem because of the level of grip? I saw more and more 4WD's running 2WD front last year but just clarify if this is allowed or not. 2WD fronts didn't seem too much of an issue

I can see the point to an extent. This years first ne regional, 9/10 of the a final were using old 2 or 3 row studs on front of 4wd. These were available from a shop somewhere. But were not on any websites, ebay or even manufactured anymore.

This was a little disheartening after spending a tonne on 'commercially available' tyres.

[PaulRotheram]

If anything, I think a control compound is a better implication, rear axle included than an overall control tyre.

For the current controlled tyres you can get;

Schumacher compounds:
Blue
Yellow
Silver
Green

Ballistic buggy compounds:
Green
Blue
Pink
White

4 compounds from each manufacturer on the same tyre. Would it not just be easier having a dry and wet compound nominated and stick to that?

As for the proposals, I prefer the wording of:
23.11 At Sanctioned events two types of control tyre will be adopted for the driven axle on 2WD cars and the front and rear axle of 4WD cars. The choice of tyres for the non-driven axle on 2WD cars will be free, subject to conforming to rule 23.7. The Section committee will approve the choice of control tyres.

However, why take the choice of tyre away from the club? They know what works best. Or is this wording just meaning they will approve the clubs decision?

[RogerM]

The first rule in Phil's post #21 is fairly sensible.

Control tires are a gift from the RC gods. Think aobut how much stuff you'd have to carry around / store at home to make sure you always had THE tire?!?!?!?!?!?!

One of the reasons I stopped racing 1/8th was the lack of a control tire rule and carrying 4 hauler bags full of mounted tires got a bit silly!

Either leave the rule alone or go with the first one I say, might have to go and vote this year!

[Paul Field]

I agree with you Roger.
I remember the days before control tyres. You were always chasing your tail.
Some meetings you could buy as many as 5 sets of different tyres and you still might not find the right ones and then they never got used again.
At least with the current rule some Schumacher yellows and Ballistic greens in your tyre bag will see you through. You can order/glue your tyres before the event and have more time for car set up etc. Setting your car up is difficult enough without adding another (very expensive) parameter.
As far as I can see Brushless and Lipo have saved the sport as we all have plenty of speed and power. The worry of not finishing your race because your cells have gone flat has gone. Plenty of people have come back because of this. Don't drive them away.
Lets not go back to the old days.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Chrislong]

Without a control tyre, you end up with one person finding some TR32's and blitzing the meeting. Or everyone spending ££££'s on all the options to try them all.

With control tyre levels any home advantage for club racers and cuts ££££'s for all.

[Mike Parker]

Lots of interesting and valid points raised here.

Personally when it comes to controlled tyres for driven axles fine, keeping the option free to run whatever tyre on the front of your 4wd no problem, providing they are commercially available.

[spenner]

A couple of points.....

Firstly, this is the only two possible rule proposal's at this point in time. It was suggested all through last year by a large number of drivers that the tyre situation was starting to get out of hand.
For example: a few years ago it was either yellow/green mini or bb green, move to now and you carry the following: yellow/green/silver mini/stagger/cut stagger, bb green/white.

It is easy to say 'control compound' which would be ideal, but... Who will police it?
The brca are looking for ways to keep cost's for all at nationals to a sensible level, whilst still enjoying the awesome level of competition.
You will also have one thing less to worry about in terms of setup, you can bolt on the control tyre and not have to worry about trying 3/4 different types.

Also, this is for the national series... Unless regionals decide to opt using it, which means unless you compete or intend competing then it doesn't really effect you. Looking at the replies, not many competed this year?

Lastly, there is no real point moaning or giving ideas unless you... A, attend the agm. B, put in a rule proposal (but your too late).

John spencer

[Big E]

Personally I'd like the front tyres to be controlled just so I don't have to carry so many about.

I'm lucky enough to be assisted with tyres and if I really wanted to I could run new every run, however most of the time I don't think I need to.

However having been around for a fair while I can tell you now, like others have said, with no control tyres it will be horrendous, the amount you used to have to take just in case they worked and then something else came out was just crazy!

In the ideal world in my head qty, type and compound would all be controlled.

This year for 2wd I carried schue 2wd spikes in 3 compounds, staggers slim in 4 compounds, fat staggers in 3 compounds, bb spikes in 3 compounds, I then had for 4wd full fat schue fronts in 3 compounds, bb fronts in 3 compounds, then another load of 2wd fronts staggers and slim minis and bb 2wd fronts just in case! Now that was just stupid.

I like things to be fair and I don't think it is at the moment as if you have money tyres aren't an issue, let's make things as equal as possible for everyone.

I don't buy the "it gives me a tuning option" you can always make something work and to me as long as everyone is on the same so what.

Personally I would have liked, for nationals, 1 manufacturers tyres allowed at each meeting, so you could say schues at rounds 1 and 4, dBoots at 2 and 5 and BB's at the other 2, just as an example to open it to more makes and also so you do not need to carry so many tyres to each meeting.

E

[discothesnake]

I kinda like the idea of a control tyre for front wheels. As Roger said, you wouldn't have to carry a boxload of tyres around and worry what the guy ahead of you was using.

Also, it would help people understand the set-up side of racing rather then concentrating on a quick fix change of tyre.

I would have to say YES :thumbsup:

[ASR]

I cannot think of any form of full scale Motorsport where there are such little rules regarding the types or quantity of tyre used?.

Many people have come back to the hobby as a result of the now "level playing field" regarding the electronics, having endless options on tyres and quantities allowed in this economic climate is almost cetainly going to drive these people away again.

Same tyres for everyone = less excuses as to why you were beaten, other than the guy who won is just better than you.

[dodgydiy]

i dont think control tyres on the front of a 2wd are a good idea, there are so many different types of chassis around to be catered for, and it could make it very hard for a less experienced racer to get their car set up to their liking on spikes, when the car might just work perfectly and be a lot more driveable on ribs or two row studs even. rear control tyres are good in a way as they will limit the overall grip available to everyone. personally i think it should be a limit on compound used rather than anything else, eliminating tyres that grip like hell for one race then go in the bin. one set of rears per meeting could really make things more interesting, but again could lead to people going all out to get a good run in an early heat and not bothering racing again until the finals. people will still carry boxes of the same tyre around, with different inserts, different numbers of spikes cut off, wheels different in weight or stiffness, etc. etc. no matter what you do, anything for that little performance advantage so it wont really create a level playing field or cut costs that much

[bert digler]

i dont think control tyres on the front of a 2wd are a good idea, there are so many different types of chassis around to be catered for, and it could make it very hard for a less experienced racer to get their car set up to their liking on spikes, when the car might just work perfectly and be a lot more driveable on ribs or two row studs even. rear control tyres are good in a way as they will limit the overall grip available to everyone. personally i think it should be a limit on compound used rather than anything else, eliminating tyres that grip like hell for one race then go in the bin. one set of rears per meeting could really make things more interesting, but again could lead to people going all out to get a good run in an early heat and not bothering racing again until the finals. people will still carry boxes of the same tyre around, with different inserts, different numbers of spikes cut off, wheels different in weight or stiffness, etc. etc. no matter what you do, anything for that little performance advantage so it wont really create a level playing field or cut costs that much
Why don't they have 2 types of control tyre front and rear per class sorted ie Schuey mini spike front and rear and ballistic one compound suitable 2 and 4 wd per day two sets maximum from round one to keep costs down if there bald drive smoother :thumbsup:

[racingdwarf]

I agree that control tyres reduce the costs, but this said I race rallyx nationals (not as many as I used to:() and TBH I have never wished for a tyre rule, as I don't think type of tyre people are using makes a difference as at top level meetings most people will know the tyre they want to use for the track they are racing on, The BIG difference is the number of sets some racers use that others just can't afford to do:woot:.Now that I would love to see limited....

would removing the tyre rule at 10th meetings really change the field? most big meetings in the uk for tenth seem to be astro, what tyres are most going to use anyway? The only real downside I can see is the use of say minipins that could be one run wonders:confused:

But It would be good to see the market domination that schumacker have broken, Not against a UK company, just other firms may put more effort into creating tyres for UK tracks if they knew they had a chance of them being used at top level and winning top level national meetings in the uk.

[bert digler]

I agree that control tyres reduce the costs, but this said I race rallyx nationals (not as many as I used to:() and TBH I have never wished for a tyre rule, as I don't think type of tyre people are using makes a difference as at top level meetings most people will know the tyre they want to use for the track they are racing on, The BIG difference is the number of sets some racers use that others just can't afford to do:woot:.Now that I would love to see limited....

would removing the tyre rule at 10th meetings really change the field? most big meetings in the uk for tenth seem to be astro, what tyres are most going to use anyway? The only real downside I can see is the use of say minipins that could be one run wonders:confused:

But It would be good to see the market domination that schumacker have broken, Not against a UK company, just other firms may put more effort into creating tyres for UK tracks if they knew they had a chance of them being used at top level and winning top level national meetings in the uk.
It would not change the field but allow the average racer to afford to run on level playing field tbh one set of tyres would be better one compound one type I used to race in the open rule days and yes you had bags of tyres to compete ridiculous cost and most of all no fun which is what this sport is about if it was down to me I would say four row spike and three row fronts 4 wd and two row studs 2wd they work and last the day :lol:

[discostu]

I feel ALL championship events should have a control tyre on all axels and also limited to two sets per meeting like tc racing this way it should be more even INMO it's a shame a a control wheel and insert can't be used to make it even more even.

At least this way it would take local knowledge away to a point of tyres

Stu

[racingdwarf]

It would not change the field but allow the average racer to afford to run on level playing field tbh one set of tyres would be better one compound one type I used to race in the open rule days and yes you had bags of tyres to compete ridiculous cost and most of all no fun which is what this sport is about if it was down to me I would say four row spike and three row fronts 4 wd and two row studs 2wd they work and last the day :lol:


Ahh the dark old days of my youth at 10th nationals :lol: cut and shut losi tyres for fwd fronts

I don't think it would get that silly again,as on astro you just wont need the choice

[Si Coe]

Whilst this is for nationals only and need not apply at regional level or club it is wrong to assume that they don't tend to follow the lead of nationals. Most astro clubs in the UK don't actually have an official control tyre for club meets, but overwhelming majority run yellow minispikes exclusively in the dry.

Personally I'd say the optimum solution is to offer a limited selection as is currently the case for the rear.
Controlling compound is tricky unless it is possible to convince Schumacher/Ballistic to make the 'approved' tyre with the compound marked on the sidewall - but there are obvious cost implications there. As long a compound is marked with a paint blob its too hard to police.

I'd say rear as is, 4wd front Schu/Ballistic minispikes in the same compounds and 2wd front Staggers/Cuts/Spikes. I'd have preferred just 2 2wd front options but since in theory anyone who buys staggers could make their own cuts thats a bit pointless. But lets stick to one profile though.

That offers a good range of options for tuning for different cars without requiring a massive selection.

[Stu]

With any suggestion needs to be consideration for scrutaineering. Restricting qty per meeting may seem like a nice idea to cut cost but managing the sketch would be more work - would anyone be prepared to stand for committee as 'Minister of Scrutaineering'?

At the oOple series we ran no tyre rule because we could not be arsed to manage it, clearly at a fun event this is possible, but at the national series the current tyre rule works well.

Interesting point Ellis makes ref one manufacturer per event, sharing the love among them through a series, next years oOlple series anyone?

[discostu]

With any suggestion needs to be consideration for scrutaineering. Restricting qty per meeting may seem like a nice idea to cut cost but managing the sketch would be more work - would anyone be prepared to stand for committee as 'Minister of Scrutaineering'?

At the oOple series we ran no tyre rule because we could not be arsed to manage it, clearly at a fun event this is possible, but at the national series the current tyre rule works well.

Interesting point Ellis makes ref one manufacturer per event, sharing the love among them through a series, next years oOlple series anyone?

Hi stu

Managing the sketch of tyres is easy and no real work all that would happen when the cars go though the scrurtineering box the wheels are marked. If a car then comes to the scrurtineering box in round two with unmarked wheels these would then get a different mark (different color or something) this would also get ticked off against the drivers name on the heat list. From then on two sets for each driver would be allocated. How the driver decides to use them is up to them

I also would like to see the allocate tyre being used for all conditions even if it rains if a yellow mini spike is allocated for the meeting that is it. Again got his will keep the cost down dramaticly

At least you would know at any BRCA meeting tyres will cost X amount and that's it


Stu

[andy05]

If it was decided to split across 3 manufactures as suggested who would decide which at what track? As most clubs nominate schuy minis. It could start affecting club racing there as people would want to be use to there car on control tire for nationals. But then other club racers chose to run minis as they don't do nationals your then at a disadvantage at your club. Just a thought.