Introduction of Lipo???

[Cockerill]

Just out of interest, if you do not want Lipo to be introduced to your club/regional/national racing scene, why?

[ben]

WOOPS just read your post again hehe. Ignore

[Northy]

Just out of interest, if you do not want Lipo to be introduced to your club/regional/national racing scene, why?

DO NOT idiot! :woot:

Learn to read. :p

G

[ben]

DO NOT idiot! :woot:

Learn to read. :p

G

hehe:blush: Anyway back to toms post. I dont think you will get a reply tom.... simply because. Lipo's are ACE :woot:

[DCM]

well, if you listen to some, they burst into flames without cause or warning..... and that is less dangerous than a NiMH cell exploding in your presence... I don't know....

Bring on LIPO!!!

[johnboy]

I think its a backward step to not allow lipo. We are now on evolution 4 lipo. evo 1 and 2 were unstable. evo 3 was far better but some problems now with evo 4 they are very safe as long as people charge to the correct rate . how many meetings have people been to where a pack of nimh's have gone bang. there are too many myths and rumour regarding lipo. if there were that bad the brca touring car section wouldnt be using them.

[Cockerill]

Cheers for the posts guys, but I'm really looking for reason's from people who do not want them introduced.

I already know the advantages, that's why I use them :thumbsup:

[jimarea51]

Tom....

I don't want Li-po's to be used because I have to pay for them unlike everyone else it seems......

That is unless some one wants to give me some....

JIm

[mark christopher]

Tom....

I don't want Li-po's to be used because I have to pay for them unlike everyone else it seems......

That is unless some one wants to give me some....

JIm
ill loan you a stick pack jim!!

do you buy nimh now?

[telboy]

I've just got some....so sorry Tom I can't tell you a reason for 'why not'.

:thumbsup:

[racingdwarf]

Reason for lipo- maybe the days of team cells being so much better than what joe public can get over the counter etc will be gone, with lipo brushless in the old 4wd just how fast can we go:woot::thumbsup:. Also we may only need a couple of sets rather than a couple of cases of batterys.

Reason not- I can take my £100+ chargers & all my sets of mega money batterys that set me back a few houndred quid and oh yer my £100+ muchmore discharger and chuck them in the bin cos they wont be worth jack s**t!! and come to that my 4wd lipo wont fit in so I can chuck that in the bin two:o.........All that will make next year very costly, errr and the way money is at the min I don't think I would bother.

In 2wd you will need a bit of lead to hit the weight limit:p.

The thing is once you make lipo legal you realy have no choice, get lipo and lipo chargers for 300+ ish, or go fishing

[matdodd]

The thing is once you make lipo legal you realy have no choice, get lipo and lipo chargers for 300+ ish, or go fishing

They can be run together, people ran NIMH's & lipo at last years Worksop series & the Belgium GP in the same meeting!

[GRIFF55]

what car does lipo not fit in?

[_sleigh_]

That depends very much on the make of LiPo. You'll find a few that will struggle to fit in a B4/XXX because the wires exit the hard case at the side and not the end/top. This makes them WWWIIIIDDDEEEE.

[GRIFF55]

But, if you were to buy the right make then they would be able to fit in all cars. Is this right? Not that i have any but there are a few guys running them at club in tourers and they seem so simple compared to nimh.
Sorry, back to topic.

The only downside i have is the resale value of old kit, hey ho, i've had my moneys worth out of it:thumbsup:

[MattW]

Think S4 is a bit of a challenge isn't it?

[_sleigh_]

But, if you were to buy the right make then they would be able to fit in all cars.

OK then a question to all....

Do you see it as a must that for a specific make of LiPo cell should fit a standard off the shelf car (ie, B4, XXX etc) without modification to either car or cell, before it is allowed to be homologated?

[DCM]

yes, it must, it should fit in as a replacement cell, it makes it far more transferable. I know with some of the packs (yungtong for starters) you need a small dremmel work to clear the output cables, is that acceptable, I would think so, but hacking a chassis to make em fit... no

[jimarea51]

"ill loan you a stick pack jim!!"

"do you buy nimh now?"

Hey Mark,

Unfortunatly I do still part with hard earned cash for all my racing gear:blush:

After all the years I've been racing you'd think people would sponsor me out of pitty:woot:

JIm

[racingdwarf]

Yes for sure, I think the rule should be lipo should fit straight in the car with no chassis modification exept for maybe washers under battery posts etc, but we should not have to chop the chassis about.

[ashleyb4]

I think they should have to be between a pair of fixed dimenions.

A

[Medders]

I think they should have to be between a pair of fixed dimenions.

A



don't they exist in three dimensions ????

[DaveG28]

It'd be difficult to make a rule on fitting specific cars, dimensions is much easier.

But, as a downside, then yeah definitely I think potentially for some people it will be a pain to make them fit. Those more comfortable with dremelling/cutting parts of chassis etc need to remember a lot of people really don't have the skills/inclination for that! With how difficult it is getting new blood into the hobby, I don't think advanced DIY being added as a prerequisite is a good idea!

Still, with a Lipo version S4 being seen (well, people have modified them or something to fit Lipo yeah?) there's not much the low capacity saddle Lipo's don't fit in pretty easily! I know they go in X5's (thanks to Chris Long showing me!) with little mods, they go in BX4's, I think they go in Tamiya's with just some battery post changes too? I'm sure I've seen B44's with them too!?

Dave

[ashleyb4]

don't they exist in three dimensions ????

Ill put it a diffrent way i mean it they should fall within a set range on dimensions so it must be bigger then H x L x D but smaller than H x L x D.

A

[Tom3012]

jim, not having a go but I pay for my gear with my own money and the occasional loan from my dad, and I'm on peanuts for a wage :p

But I say bring on lipo! You can get 2 yeah racing lipos for £38 on some sites and there awesome!

[trekkerkk]

my thoughts are they should fit all the cars witout modification,
no dremmelling at all,
then its up to the racer to make the decision for themselves:thumbsup:


trekkker

[Lee]

I`m all for lipo and im looking forward to giving them a run at the worksop series but i have to agree with some of the posts regarding being able to fit into all cars without hacking bits out of them. A manufacture should not forfit sales just because battery technology has changed and this could happen. I would hate to see the racing scene lose a tope end chassis such as an S4 just because it could not accomodate a lipo pack :(

[Chris Doughty]

I think you are all getting confused, LiPo does not really offer any on-track advantage of nmhi

its the off-track benefits that makes everyone pro-LiPo isn't it?

as has been pointed out, worksop series, LiPo and nmhi mixed it up all the way through the grid at that meeting.

just because a car does not fit 'regular' LiPo cells does not mean it is at a dis-advantage.

I would be perfectly happy to run an S4 type car on nmhi that I ran this year against ANY electric technology you like in your car, I know that my car was boarderline too fast for its self and the 'right' weight that I wanted.

[DCM]

actualy, I got to disagree with your first point there Chris.... for those who can't afford/justify buying the upper range of NiMH, there is a performance increase, plus there isn't a drop off in performance as the cells discharge. There is also not the AV drop-off as the cells age either, LiPo lose capacity not voltage.

I do think it really does level the playing field, for the club racer to the national driver... LiPo and brushless does, to a point, allow club drivers to run the same gear and power and performance as the likes of yourself though..... which is good.

[Lee]

I should have been clearer, Chris, i meant someone may choose a different car because it will accept lipo.

Like when the Cat SX was first rumoured people were saying they would only buy it if it was lipo friendly :)

[_sleigh_]

as has been pointed out, worksop series, LiPo and nmhi mixed it up all the way through the grid at that meeting.

It could be the grip levels aren't that high at Worksop, so any additional power can't really be used. Where as on high grip tracks (Kiddy, Stotfold, EPR) the difference may be more noticable.

As DCM says there's no noticable drop off in performance, so surely the LiPo advantage will be more apparent at the end of a race.

[Chris Doughty]

It could be the grip levels aren't that high at Worksop, so any additional power can't really be used. Where as on high grip tracks (Kiddy, Stotfold, EPR) the difference may be more noticable.

As DCM says there's no noticable drop off in performance, so surely the LiPo advantage will be more apparent at the end of a race.

do you really think that more speed is needed than even a basic nmhi pack and a 4.5 ??

[mac]

If/when Lipo becomes legal in 10th off road there will be a lot more companies bringing out packs that have different configuration of wires/output, if you looked at the brca touring guys, there was only 4 packs on it at the start and now there is over 16, at the moment there is only a few companys that do saddle cells as its quite an investment to produce, as soon as they see there is a market they will follow!!!
So most cars should be able to fit something!

[_sleigh_]

do you really think that more speed is needed than even a basic nmhi pack and a 4.5 ??

Not really, but the voltage charactoristics are still a big difference from NiMH.

My biggest negative point is the fitment into individual cars, and it need to be without modification to either cell or chassis.

[telboy]

Speed advantages are in the drivers thumbs....which is why I'm not good!:p

Seriously though, you could have the fastest LiPo'd, brushless'd car on the track. If you can't drive then its no advantage. The fast guys will still be the fast guys. They're like that for a reason.

I could put a 5000 lipo and a 2.5 brushless in my car, and I'd still get beat by Cragg running Nihm and a stock motor!

Yes cost is a factor for most (including myself), but I always have to sell older stuff before I buy newer stuff. That way, you don't have to put as many pennies towards your new products.
Club racers will always buy your old gear, and some will even pay near the retail value for it if its in good condition.

Regarding 'modification' to chassis. That would need to be clarified. Would removing the battery trays from a D4 be classed as 'modifying the chassis'?

[Lee]

I think modifying, would have to be clarified, along the lines of any non reversable changes such as dremelling things out to get the cells in etc

[_sleigh_]

I'm not saying I want more voltage, just that it's not really an entirely level playing field.

[Kopite]

i think years ago when the capacity of cells wasn't what they are now, and you struggled to last, the performance difference between LiPo and NiMH would've been way more apparent. Nowadays, if you've not got enough speed, you can just slat a faster motor in the car, yet not even come close to using the full capacity of cells.

There are limits to what power you can use in an off road car without making it too just too difficult to drive (grip limits etc), so i really can't see a performance related benefit of running LiPo in off road.

I ran LiPo in my X6 at the weekend, with a Novak 7.5L, and it was more than enough power. I was slowly adding weight to the car to get it to the same weight levels as it was with NiMH, so power really isn't a factor

The benefits of LiPo in terms of usage totally outclasses NiMH though. I have one pack for 2wd, one pack for 4wd, and just recharge the same pack after a race. No matter how long i run for, both cars' electrics came off cold! Overall, the cost of 2 packs of LiPo TrakPower 3200's cost me 90 quid (ish), cheaper than the numerous packs of cells i would've eventually bought for the new season.

As for fitting LiPo in the cars. I agree with some of the comments about attracting newbies into the sport, and them maybe having to mod the car to make it LiPo friendly. However, there are quite a few cars that still require some form of dremeling to get them race ready!

to be honest, i'd be gutted if we couldn't run LiPo next year, racing has become so much easier since i've tried LiPo:drool::drool::drool::drool:

[GRIFF55]

I think the power advantage you get with lipo would be of very little benefit to 75% of offroaders as it isn't how fast your car is but it's hgoing to be those pesky thumbs at the end of the day. Doughty proved this using my car in one leg of the a final at epr and still very much on the pace. I couldn't get the car any where near that fast around the track.
The main benefit as stan said, is a couple of packs for both classes and reuseable all day:thumbsup:. There has been alot of people this year who have had cells go down in packs and have not replaced them purely because lipo is the future and there is no point in replacing damaged nimh's.(myself included)
I'll be using lipo as much as i can over the winter and club racing because it saves all the charging,discharging and equalising routine that seems to take a lifetime.
As for car fitment, at the level of racing that we are talking about, i think people will do whatever they have to so as to make their cars lipo compatible(if they feel they are at a disadvantage using nimh). They will fit every car with very little mods to the chassis inc. the s4(see doddy's thread)

[Lee Martin]

im pretty sick of people thinking that team drivers ahve faster equipment and thats why they beat other drivers....seriously are you kidding me?

you can buy the same batteries of the shelf....maybe even better..team cells aer not sorted, they're just picked from the shelf at the factory!

And i know it hurts to pay for things....but if we didnt then our hobbie shops and our hobbie would die out!

shame really...........

[Kopite]

im pretty sick of people thinking that team drivers ahve faster equipment and thats why they beat other drivers....seriously are you kidding me?

you can buy the same batteries of the shelf....maybe even better..team cells aer not sorted, they're just picked from the shelf at the factory!

And i know it hurts to pay for things....but if we didnt then our hobbie shops and our hobbie would die out!

shame really...........


10 to 15 years ago mate, team drivers did get better stuff than the regular racer, i can vouch for that. Nowadays, you're absolutely right in what you say, it's all the same stuff. Mainly because we're at the limit of the speeds we can go in off road, if not quite often exceeding it

[mark christopher]

yes, it must, it should fit in as a replacement cell, it makes it far more transferable. I know with some of the packs (yungtong for starters) you need a small dremmel work to clear the output cables, is that acceptable, I would think so, but hacking a chassis to make em fit... no

"ill loan you a stick pack jim!!"

"do you buy nimh now?"

Hey Mark,

Unfortunatly I do still part with hard earned cash for all my racing gear:blush:

After all the years I've been racing you'd think people would sponsor me out of pitty:woot:

JIm

Yes for sure, I think the rule should be lipo should fit straight in the car with no chassis modification exept for maybe washers under battery posts etc, but we should not have to chop the chassis about.

my thoughts are they should fit all the cars witout modification,
no dremmelling at all,
then its up to the racer to make the decision for themselves:thumbsup:


trekkker

i think years ago when the capacity of cells wasn't what they are now, and you struggled to last, the performance difference between LiPo and NiMH would've been way more apparent. Nowadays, if you've not got enough speed, you can just slat a faster motor in the car, yet not even come close to using the full capacity of cells.

There are limits to what power you can use in an off road car without making it too just too difficult to drive (grip limits etc), so i really can't see a performance related benefit of running LiPo in off road.

I ran LiPo in my X6 at the weekend, with a Novak 7.5L, and it was more than enough power. I was slowly adding weight to the car to get it to the same weight levels as it was with NiMH, so power really isn't a factor

The benefits of LiPo in terms of usage totally outclasses NiMH though. I have one pack for 2wd, one pack for 4wd, and just recharge the same pack after a race. No matter how long i run for, both cars' electrics came off cold! Overall, the cost of 2 packs of LiPo TrakPower 3200's cost me 90 quid (ish), cheaper than the numerous packs of cells i would've eventually bought for the new season.

As for fitting LiPo in the cars. I agree with some of the comments about attracting newbies into the sport, and them maybe having to mod the car to make it LiPo friendly. However, there are quite a few cars that still require some form of dremeling to get them race ready!

to be honest, i'd be gutted if we couldn't run LiPo next year, racing has become so much easier since i've tried LiPo:drool::drool::drool::drool:

how can maufacture be blamed for thier lipo not fitting car chassis? even the pred takes lipo, but in a non conventional way, somtime you need to think outside the box http://www.oople.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3863&d=1220980186
do you ban electric motors on older cars as the new "power" from them made the transmission weak, or did the manufactures come up with stronger cars?

id say run to a size for saddle then the car manufactures will change to suit the new technology, certainly this has happened in TC.

as for newbies coming in thats simple sell em a car that takes lipo!



guess what im saying is was the car designed to fit the nimh cell or was the cell designed to fit the car?



jim what car you run?

[DCM]

10 to 15 years ago mate, team drivers did get better stuff than the regular racer, i can vouch for that. Nowadays, you're absolutely right in what you say, it's all the same stuff. Mainly because we're at the limit of the speeds we can go in off road, if not quite often exceeding it

I didn't mean hand picked cells, more that the cells are not graded, and as you don't need six packs, you can afford to buy the same, whereas when you were buying six packs, and it was a difference of £20 from the budget to the pro packs... it makes a lot of difference.

Jeez Lee M, take a chill pill

[Lee Martin]

dont Jeez me. It stil seems to be some peoples excuse as to why they are not winning! years ago yes, they were matched and better. not now....if u get a £20 set of cells stick a 3.5 in it and the car will be fast watever happens!

[DCM]

so, when you run your cells, with a higher AV and runtime, they are just as good as my cells with a lower AV and lower runtime? Maybe you think they are, but they are not, and you know as well as most people on here... just putting in a faster motor isn't the same as running better cells.

I will Jeez you when you rant though....

[elvo]

LiPo does not really offer any on-track advantage of nmhi.


Says you. On a high-grip track, I felt a distinct difference due to most of the weight (> 100 grammes of lead) being lower in the chassis, effectively lowering the CG.

[Gnarly Old Dog]

OK then a question to all....

Do you see it as a must that for a specific make of LiPo cell should fit a standard off the shelf car (ie, B4, XXX etc) without modification to either car or cell, before it is allowed to be homologated?

Personally, I think a dimensional control would be sufficient - I don't think any rule that defines a chassis would be able to keep up with the car manufacturers over time - and they'd always be one chassis that got left out. Don't overcomplicate it would be my advice - it would soon self regulate and tbh, any local or decent model shop would be able to advise on chassis / battery compatibility.

Modification to the battery itself - good idea - but can you consider wording it along the lines that the integrity of the cell casing should not be compromised by any accidental damage or deliberate modification. I've taken a 0.5mm chamfer off the very end of a LiPo to fit my TC - I'd hate for that blade marking to constitute a rule infringement of cell modification.

As for downsides as per Tom's original post - the main one would be cost related and the transience of going from an established 'old' technology to a 'new' one. I'd hate to see the off road rules written to preclude the mixed use of nimhs and lipos in the same class at the same meetings.
There's no reason why the technology can't exist alongside the homologated nimhs.
I'd like to see hard casing be made a mandatory requirement for the additional impact resilience it will give the cells but that can make it difficult to scrutinize the actual cells which may be a problem for the organisers.

Perosnally, I don't think that 1:10 off road can afford not to embrace the technology - many clubs are already running it (esp those that also run TCs) but these club members are currently alienated from attending regional or national events. There's good and bad and personally, I don't think that I'd go any faster with Lipos or with Lee's mega unbuyable team equipment :p

[Bungleaio]

I think lipo will be legal next season, it makes sense to use it. They are so easy to look after, I've only heard of one person at my club losing a pack due to it swelling, I've not heard of anyone having one expode, I can't say the same for nmih.

One of my mates was using a shum Axis (last raced c2000) earlier this year with trakpowers 4800 saddles, ok they weren't an easy fit and he had to buy some different straps but they did go in. Before that he was using some IB4200's and they were a very tight fit. I was suprised to see how large "conventional" cells had grown over the years.

[DCM]

you lay down a size, length - width for a stick, and a max smaller one for a saddle, you could make a maximum height, but as the BRCA don't allow over 5000mAh at the mo....

[Lee Martin]

So no-ones allowed to express an opinion without you going jeez now?

[jcb]

I know the following may seem like I am completely against LIPO or making use of the latest technology, but I am NOT!!! However I do feel that it needs to be looked at with more than just a theoretical performance advantage in mind.

The big reasons for me at present being against LIPO is that:

1) They don’t fit in my 4wd and others without some serious modification, thus increasing the cost to either get a new car or chassis made, defeating the object that I would save money because I only have to buy a couple of packs.

2) May put new comers off, as the initial price seems slightly higher ok so in the long run you save money, but is a beginner going to be looking long term straight away?

3) LIPO’s all seem different sizes for what ever reason, and despite when they first came out it was said they were all the same performance you can now get 20c, 30c or what ever bringing in the same performance differences and increased prices comparable to sport and competition NIMH’s.

4) Could cause issues for shops with stock of equipment that is no longer popular with racers.

5) I (along with quite a few others) rely on selling my season old batteries at the end of the year to a club / regional racer to help finance my next years purchases. This is either going to end up in me selling them at a seriously low price or not even be able to shift them as the club / regional racer will prefer the ease of use and apparent performance from LIPO. Also as Racingdwarf has said makes equipment such as dischargers almost worthless.

6) Although there may be no significant performance advantage on tracks such as Worksop, Kidderminster or Stotfold that are either low grip or relatively small and technical an advantage would surely be seen at places with tracks of similar size to Oswestry and Talywain. I know in our region we have two tracks where an advantage is had by running brushless, let alone having a slightly lighter car with a smidge more voltage.

7) This is a bit more general and could include the large capacity cells and brushless motors but I feel it takes away some of the driving skills that were required to last a 5 minute race, everyone can now have a really quick car for 5 minutes. Which isn’t always a good thing. Do you really want to be trying to avoid potential unguided missiles as a newcomer gets sucked into thinking that they need LIPO and 4.5 brushless to be competitive.

8) Scrutineering could take longer and be made more difficult.

9) Increase in the number of rules.

10) Certain clubs may chose to get more racing in as LIPO don’t require the maintenance and apparent cooling down period after they have been used. I know it’s already been mentioned in our region that because we only have 3 heats on a good day that we could race every 20 minutes eeek, which is just impractical for anyone not having a LIPO.

So to summarise for me to be able to run LIPO for next year I would have to
1) Change my 4wd chassis
2) Get a LIPO charger and balancer thingy
3) Buy a LIPO (obvious I know)
4) Buy a LIPO charging pouch
5) I can’t sell my old cells, which wouldn’t be competitive against new cells or LIPO as the voltage and run time have dropped off.
6) My discharger and charger are worth almost nothing, as anyone buying something would get one that’s LIPO compatible.
7) It would probably be a good idea to get a voltage thingy for the ESC too as from what people say LIPO don’t like going to flat.

Therefore I reckon it will cost me more than all my NIMH’s cost me this year. I know eventually I will change over like I did with brushless, but I don’t think it’s as cheap as everyone makes out!!

[DCM]

So no-ones allowed to express an opinion without you going jeez now?

well, you can flame, but hey, I reserve the right to respond in the same manner

[SHY]

do you really think that more speed is needed than even a basic nmhi pack and a 4.5 ??

Agree Chris! We even run 5 cells just to get the power DOWN!

But still, many guys have problems with their NiMH cells dying, they must be soldered together, they blow up, they must be stored with some amount of current etc... a lot of hassle! LiPo is modern plug-and-play technology!

But I agree that mainly it's an "outside the car" advantage! (Except runtime during practise)

Note! For clublevel racing - why not increase the length of the heats?

@Elvo: I haven't gotten around to doing back-to-back tests with timing... but the B44 sure does seem better with 4800 LiPos. Very consistent power through the whole heat. And the weight is due to the batterys lower weight moved forward = tons of steering. This is on a dirt track with good traction. I still claim low weight is better for 4WD. For 2WD only with very high traction.

[telboy]

I think in the long run, it could encourage more people to 'go electric' for fun cars. As at the moment they all seem to buy nitro for the run time advantage.
But if everything goes Lipo, then even the elec' cars will run longer, and if people buy them, they may be encouraged to race them.

And all this could bring more youngsters into the hobby.
My 6yr old daughter wants to get a car to use and then race...she aint going to be using NiHm.

[DCM]

Note! For clublevel racing - why not increase the length of the heats?

thought about that, but with those still on NiMHs and brushed, it would be a killer

[_sleigh_]

you lay down a size, length - width for a stick, and a max smaller one for a saddle, you could make a maximum height, but as the BRCA don't allow over 5000mAh at the mo....

I understood the 5000mAh limit is not nessesarily down to the BRCA, i think it has something to do with legal transportation of cells on passenger aircraft. Something to do with the quantity of Lithium within the cell. The BRCA (and EFRA i believe) kept to the 5000 limit, as it would be silly to have a cell that racers couldn't travel to international events with.

I might have that wrong, but I seem to remember hearing that somewhere.

[DCM]

yes, there is a calculation that gives you the quantity of lithium to the capacity of the cell, and that there is a legal limit to how much Lithium you can ship on a plane.... hence the 5000mAh limit. I got wedged in a conversation between Worsley, Hardisity and myself.... aaaarrrgghhh my head hurt afterwards

[SHY]

thought about that, but with those still on NiMHs and brushed, it would be a killer

Well, we've been doing that one whole season - with NiMH - 7 minutes and no one had problems! Even with old 3300 cells... Now with the new EFRA battery list there's mostly 4200 cells and above being used.

Even 5 cell packs last long enough for that...

If it's raining and you're racing on clay... you will dump though :)

[Kopite]

I understood the 5000mAh limit is not nessesarily down to the BRCA, i think it has something to do with legal transportation of cells on passenger aircraft. Something to do with the quantity of Lithium within the cell. The BRCA (and EFRA i believe) kept to the 5000 limit, as it would be silly to have a cell that racers couldn't travel to international events with.

I might have that wrong, but I seem to remember hearing that somewhere.


points like these are something i'd never even take into account when i'm just saying 'legalise LiPo'. I imagine there's a shit load of work to be done to collate a list of legal requirements for a new product such as LiPo?

[DCM]

if you manufacture and use in the same country, no problem, or ship them by water, no problem, but as soo as you air freight the,,,,

[Garry]

The main on-track benefit of LiPo is at the end of the run - whereas NiMH will have dropped off a little, LiPo voltage will be as high on the last lap as it was on the first. At least, thats what I've found in TC (27t and 10.5).

First time I've heard about capacity limits. Trakpower do 5400mah packs, Checkpoint do (although I think they are produced by Trakpower), MaxAmps and more. I thought it was to do with physical size of the packs - bigger cells etc.

And special cells? In TC this very much still exists. :(

[JohnM]

I've done my last 3 meetings purely on LiPo power, and its been the best thing ever, so much more time at the weekend to do other stuff, instead of discharging, equalizing, charging etc, just turn up at the track, and go racing:thumbsup:

Never going back to NiMh again:p


So to summarise for me to be able to run LIPO for next year I would have to
1) Change my 4wd chassis
2) Get a LIPO charger and balancer thingy
3) Buy a LIPO (obvious I know)
4) Buy a LIPO charging pouch
5) I can’t sell my old cells, which wouldn’t be competitive against new cells or LIPO as the voltage and run time have dropped off.
6) My discharger and charger are worth almost nothing, as anyone buying something would get one that’s LIPO compatible.
7) It would probably be a good idea to get a voltage thingy for the ESC too as from what people say LIPO don’t like going to flat.


Jonboy, some that doesn't cost as much as you think, or even needed matey,
1) Perhaps you might have to change your chassis, but I'm sure I've seen LiPos in a S44
2) They'll cost you about the same as a pack of NiMh cells
3) Cheaper then 1 pack of NiMhs, let alone 5 or 6 packs.
4) Do you really need one? I don't know of anyone with one yet.
5) Maybe, but there will always be someone who doesn't want the newest stuff straight away.
6) Agreed, but thats probably the only downside that I've come across so far. Also see point 5.
7) I know which speedo you run, and that already has a Lipo cut-off.

See there isn't that much to worry about is there.

Oh there is one thing, just for you Jonathan, LiPo at the EoE Regionals next year, I will beat you!:thumbsup:

[niggs98]

having spoken to someone who runs them in tc i hope there will be voltage struitenneering on the lipos due to the things i have heard or it will definatly be a lipo only class as that is all that will be competetive in the long run.

as has been stated earlier they need to fit all cars with out modification or the cost for the racer is gonna be stupid

i already know that even the smaller 3200 track power saddle pack doesnt fit my car without modification so i either need to move and lenthen the battery posts and make new bars or totally move the electrics around to run a stick pack down one side. fair enough in the posistion im in i will be testing both of those over the winter to see whats best but the current cell fits every car with minimal fuss so so should the lipo.

having said all that i still want lipo in but do feel it needs more time and help to fit the current range of cars or there will be no market for second hand stuff at all as noone will want it unless it takes lipo

[mark christopher]

having spoken to someone who runs them in tc i hope there will be voltage struitenneering on the lipos due to the things i have heard or it will definatly be a lipo only class as that is all that will be competetive in the long run.

as has been stated earlier they need to fit all cars with out modification or the cost for the racer is gonna be stupid

i already know that even the smaller 3200 track power saddle pack doesnt fit my car without modification so i either need to move and lenthen the battery posts and make new bars or totally move the electrics around to run a stick pack down one side. fair enough in the posistion im in i will be testing both of those over the winter to see whats best but the current cell fits every car with minimal fuss so so should the lipo.

having said all that i still want lipo in but do feel it needs more time and help to fit the current range of cars or there will be no market for second hand stuff at all as noone will want it unless it takes lipo

so you think the current cars all had the sub c cell deigned to fit in them? you dont think the car was made round the sub c cell?

this is model car racing, come on put yuor modeling to work,.
bet if i came up with some mod that gained you a second a lap but you had to hack your car to do it, you would be hacking away

[_sleigh_]

having spoken to someone who runs them in tc i hope there will be voltage struitenneering on the lipos due to the things i have heard or it will definatly be a lipo only class as that is all that will be competetive in the long run.

I think I know where you're coming from on this, and I agree it would need to be scrutineered in some way. Although the difference would probably be noticible in straight line speed.

[Lee]

This also turns them into 1 or 2 run packs as well, its ok if you get them for free but not for those who have to pay, it also starts to get a bit dangerous when you start increasing voltage and capacity :yawn:

I know people will say "we dont need it in off road" but some one will do it, we dont need 4.5 motors but people still try them :p

[DCM]

that will be charging at more than 1c then.... thats ok, my Tekin packs are rated at 2C.... not that I would need to, as at 1C, they are still plenty rapid enough for my ageing thumbs!!

[DaveG28]

so you think the current cars all had the sub c cell deigned to fit in them? you dont think the car was made round the sub c cell?

this is model car racing, come on put yuor modeling to work,.
bet if i came up with some mod that gained you a second a lap but you had to hack your car to do it, you would be hacking away

That's fine for most of us, but not a great way of persuading young bashers into getting into the racing side more!

Especially when it looks like Lipo's aren't quite as equal to each other as we've all heard! (looking at Phil's Post and others!)

I think we need to accept Lipo's will become must have's, even if not straight away, in 4wd people will get setups to take advantage over time of the lower weight we'll be able to get to etc!

[trekkerkk]

hi mark christopher you say about hacking cars about,
oh look at your signature your sponsored by dremmel:thumbsup:,
your just trying to get everyone to buy a dremmel to convert there cars to lipo roflol

seriously only joking i thought it was quite funny,

trekkker

[Gnarly Old Dog]

I think I know where you're coming from on this, and I agree it would need to be scrutineered in some way. Although the difference would probably be noticible in straight line speed.

The way I drive I doubt if anyone would notice if I had a 4s pack in my car:woot:

Serious point though - already touched upon. We already have issues with scrutineering nimhs and any hard cased battery will cause more grief for the race officials (not good) but lets take a look beyond the national / regional sanctioned events for a moment. The fact is that the club racers out there are already buying LiPo and they sure as hell aren't gonna buy both.

The question has to be not whether the BRCA regional / national drivers can afford to start making the transition but whether the class itself can afford not to incorporate the technology.

Numbers in some regions are already pitifully low - but club racing seems quite strong. If the class alienates the club driver by not allowing his weekly preferred equipment, then it can't be good for its longevity.

It's a tricky one to balance for sure but lets not rule something out on cost alone - after all, all of our existing batteries (and chassis etc) will be replaced within the next 12-24 months I'm sure. It's a sad fact given the cost of them but Nimhs are consumables - just like tyres. In fact, come to think of it, I've had tyres that have lasted longer than some of my Nimhs:mad:

I have 100% faith that the powers that be will find a way to make sense of it all:lol:

[DCM]

at my local club, in all the years racing, 4wd has always been low/non existant... this year, with brushless and lipo, they have outnumbered the 2wd's, as power is easy to get hold of now.

As with any battery technology, it moves forwards, performance will increase too, my cells are rated at 23C and 2C charging, but I never intend to find out if they will do 2C. Some cells I think, are stretching their performance figures a little, but the C raing really is all about grunt, and in the end, the good thing with off-road, is grunt has to be metered due to lack of mechanical grip. Where the issue comes in, is when people start cocking about and charging LiPo outside of the defined parameters, you get a voltage increase, hence why people are talking about voltage cappers between the cell and the esc.

But then, what do people do with NiMH's, we are told and recomended to charge at 1c... (4.2A) and I regularly see people charing at 6A, as it gives them a voltage increase, but it comes with a clause... cell lifespan.

As a racing organisation, you can constrain things with rules, but for the most of us, these rules would only affect us at regional level. In the end, the way I see it, if your caught doing dodgy things with ANY batteries, you should be asked to leave the meeting.

[Cockerill]

Wow, a lot posts, didn't expect this many.

The major issued raised seems to be fitment to cars.

You have to remember that the cars out today are not designed for Lipo, so of course fitment will be an issue, but as Lipo is legalised new cars will be released that will allow direct fitment.

However, When brushless was first introduced did it fit in every car? Yet we are still running it, and I can think of certain motor/chassis combination's that still don't fit. The most popular speedo's have to have fans removed as they don't fit under body shells and gearing was a problem with some cars when we had to run bonded rotors.

When we got the 4200 generation of cells they didn't fit into every car. Some had to have chassis's modified, battery straps modified and special 'flat' battery bars had to be used, yet we still used them.

IMO the performance issue is rubbish, unless you already running the quickest motor's and batteries available and wanting more power, which I doubt anyone is in off-road.

The cost issue is something that we will have to accept, just like brushless. Most of us probably have skimmers sat at home that are worthless, but we choose to run brushless, no one says we have to.

[DaveG28]

Maybe those experts at dremmeling etc should offer their services to less confident people at their clubs etc to help them out?? Maybe they already do!?

Ultimately your right, it's chicken and egg, cars won't generally be designed for Lipo's until their legal, but let's help those who need to mid chassis, rather than have a go at them for not having the skills!

I think they will have performance benefits frankly, but probably nothing too major compared to skills/setup, so maybe not too important.

[Kopite]

Wow, a lot posts, didn't expect this many.

The major issued raised seems to be fitment to cars.

You have to remember that the cars out today are not designed for Lipo, so of course fitment will be an issue, but as Lipo is legalised new cars will be released that will allow direct fitment.

However, When brushless was first introduced did it fit in every car? Yet we are still running it, and I can think of certain motor/chassis combination's that still don't fit. The most popular speedo's have to have fans removed as they don't fit under body shells and gearing was a problem with some cars when we had to run bonded rotors.

When we got the 4200 generation of cells they didn't fit into every car. Some had to have chassis's modified, battery straps modified and special 'flat' battery bars had to be used, yet we still used them.

IMO the performance issue is rubbish, unless you already running the quickest motor's and batteries available and wanting more power, which I doubt anyone is in off-road.

The cost issue is something that we will have to accept, just like brushless. Most of us probably have skimmers sat at home that are worthless, but we choose to run brushless, no one says we have to.


:thumbsup:

I wonder how many people out there, who have converted to/run LiPo now, would not be willing to go back to NiMH? i.e. find a different class to run, or just not race at regional/national level?

[DCM]

I won't buy NiMH's for racing now

[niggs98]

[QUOTE=this is model car racing, come on put yuor modeling to work,.
bet if i came up with some mod that gained you a second a lap but you had to hack your car to do it, you would be hacking away[/QUOTE]

if you had bothered to read all of my post you would of seen that i personally want lipo and will be one of the few who have to work out how to get it to fit into the existing chassis of my sponser or how we go about getting the chassis mold adjusted so that the masses can change there existing car for as little outlay as possible (or free if they have a dremel and the knowhow) im just raising what i feel is a valied point that most cars will ned modifying to fit the new cells.

i already hack the hell out of my cars if i need to as am fully versed in the dremel bible thanks but am trying to look beyound my own wants and needs.



as sleigh and myself have pointed out their will need to be extra scruitineering at national and even regional events as weather we are over powered or not i know the lipo can run at more than 1 volt over what a nimh can be peaked at as it has been shown to me. im not gonna say how as i dont feel it is a safe or sensible practise and charging at 2 c isnt it either but it will cause issues at some point i dare say.

bring them in along side the nimh, i will run what i feel is best for me as will everyone else do for them selfs, just be aware that in other classes already running them that their will always be those who will take the chance so it needs to be well scruitenised


dolly returned to pram i sit back again :woot:

[telboy]

Most of us probably have skimmers sat at home that are worthless, but we choose to run brushless, no one says we have to.

To be honest Mr Tom, I sold mine to help fund my brushless set up!:thumbsup:

No need to have something sat around that will not be used.:p
:)

I'm sure if people looked through their pit boxes at what they no longer need the they could pay for Lipos by selling all the crap.

I emptied my pitbox at the beginning of this year, getting rid of old cells, old motor, parts, Com lathe, and other bits. All that was put on ebay and it ALL paid for my racing this year, Cells, motors, speedos and tyres for the whole season...and I used my last set of tyres at the most recent Regional...well worked out I think!:lol:

Seriously, I got about £350 in total for the all the rubbish in my pit box, even going down to all the dog ends of wire that I had hanging around (which I got about £10 for!) and old battery bars etc.
You be surprised what you can get for stuff that you don't need.

[MattW]

This topis will run and run even after the decision of the membership has been reached.

I have no problems personally modifying anything - anyone that knows me knows how skilled i am with a dremel!! I had a good teacher - long story!! I also currently have a 4wd that is designed with lipo in mind, so i wouldn't need the dremel anyway!:thumbsup:

Last time i tested LiPo, i didn't feel any advantage to running it - it was easier, that was it. I have LiPo and a charger, but to be honest, i'm not that bothered about running it off rd. My SHO NiMh cells are plenty good enough, i never suffer a lack of power.

It is true that NiMh discharge curve drops off. However, in the main this is due to poor matchine. NiMh cells have a much flatter discharge curve now compared to what they used to have.

I'm still amazed that the "you can't get the cells the team drivers get" obsession exists. Even in on road. There is no doubt that there is a varience in cells in a box of virgin cells, but there are many many good ones. I was talking to someone that personally matches cells this afternoon, and he confirmed this view that there really isn't anything in it. I know someone personally who had cells sent direct from one of the major players in europe. I bought some of the same brand in this Country, and i had an extra 15 sec of runtime - they came off the shelf. So i'd agree with Lee, the good cells are out there.

We should go with LiPo in my view, there are just some issues that ironing out. It will never be perfect.

[SHY]

I'm still amazed that the "you can't get the cells the team drivers get" obsession exists. Even in on road. There is no doubt that there is a varience in cells in a box of virgin cells, but there are many many good ones. I was talking to someone that personally matches cells this afternoon, and he confirmed this view that there really isn't anything in it. I know someone personally who had cells sent direct from one of the major players in europe. I bought some of the same brand in this Country, and i had an extra 15 sec of runtime - they came off the shelf. So i'd agree with Lee, the good cells are out there.

Don't agree as to on-road. For off-road yes, there's really no point as there's runtime and power in excess these days! But I know for 1:12 that the likes of Marc Fisher get hold of batteries that's never to be found on any store shelves :lol: Furthermore they charge them, do 1(!) run, then dispose of them... they have a mechanic soldering packs constantly during races...

Back to off-road!

[DCM]

I'm still amazed that the "you can't get the cells the team drivers get" obsession exists. Even in on road. There is no doubt that there is a varience in cells in a box of virgin cells, but there are many many good ones. I was talking to someone that personally matches cells this afternoon, and he confirmed this view that there really isn't anything in it. I know someone personally who had cells sent direct from one of the major players in europe. I bought some of the same brand in this Country, and i had an extra 15 sec of runtime - they came off the shelf. So i'd agree with Lee, the good cells are out there.

I never said that 'team cells' but the fact that now, rather than buying 6 packs of budget cells, it is affordable to buy two packs of the new LiPo, this making the power outputs the same..... And I have had top level and budget IB cells, and there is a difference, not so noticeable in off-road, but a big difference on-road...

[racingdwarf]

I know the following may seem like I am completely against LIPO or making use of the latest technology, but I am NOT!!! However I do feel that it needs to be looked at with more than just a theoretical performance advantage in mind.

The big reasons for me at present being against LIPO is that:

1) They don’t fit in my 4wd and others without some serious modification, thus increasing the cost to either get a new car or chassis made, defeating the object that I would save money because I only have to buy a couple of packs.

2) May put new comers off, as the initial price seems slightly higher ok so in the long run you save money, but is a beginner going to be looking long term straight away?

3) LIPO’s all seem different sizes for what ever reason, and despite when they first came out it was said they were all the same performance you can now get 20c, 30c or what ever bringing in the same performance differences and increased prices comparable to sport and competition NIMH’

4) Could cause issues for shops with stock of equipment that is no longer popular with racers.

5) I (along with quite a few others) rely on selling my season old batteries at the end of the year to a club / regional racer to help finance my next years purchases. This is either going to end up in me selling them at a seriously low price or not even be able to shift them as the club / regional racer will prefer the ease of use and apparent performance from LIPO. Also as Racingdwarf has said makes equipment such as dischargers almost worthless.

6) Although there may be no significant performance advantage on tracks such as Worksop, Kidderminster or Stotfold that are either low grip or relatively small and technical an advantage would surely be seen at places with tracks of similar size to Oswestry and Talywain. I know in our region we have two tracks where an advantage is had by running brushless, let alone having a slightly lighter car with a smidge more voltage.

7) This is a bit more general and could include the large capacity cells and brushless motors but I feel it takes away some of the driving skills that were required to last a 5 minute race, everyone can now have a really quick car for 5 minutes. Which isn’t always a good thing. Do you really want to be trying to avoid potential unguided missiles as a newcomer gets sucked into thinking that they need LIPO and 4.5 brushless to be competitive.

8) Scrutineering could take longer and be made more difficult.

9) Increase in the number of rules.

10) Certain clubs may chose to get more racing in as LIPO don’t require the maintenance and apparent cooling down period after they have been used. I know it’s already been mentioned in our region that because we only have 3 heats on a good day that we could race every 20 minutes eeek, which is just impractical for anyone not having a LIPO.

So to summarise for me to be able to run LIPO for next year I would have to
1) Change my 4wd chassis
2) Get a LIPO charger and balancer thingy
3) Buy a LIPO (obvious I know)
4) Buy a LIPO charging pouch
5) I can’t sell my old cells, which wouldn’t be competitive against new cells or LIPO as the voltage and run time have dropped off.
6) My discharger and charger are worth almost nothing, as anyone buying something would get one that’s LIPO compatible.
7) It would probably be a good idea to get a voltage thingy for the ESC too as from what people say LIPO don’t like going to flat.

Therefore I reckon it will cost me more than all my NIMH’s cost me this year. I know eventually I will change over like I did with brushless, but I don’t think it’s as cheap as everyone makes out!!

Man....Slow day at work?:p some good point tho

[jcb]

yep, been quiet all week though tomorrow is going to be hell :(

I think more points than just the apparent performance advantage and the fact that they don't fit in all the cars need to be covered.

All I can say is that I feel sorry for who ever has to write the rules, scrutinise the cars and the shops for what to stock as the clubs could end up racing to one thing and the BRCA to another, reminds me of stockcar racing with Spedeworth and trackstar, same classes just different rules and all that does is spread your racers out even further. Also makes it difficult for us racers that run on a tight budget to know what the best option is for our hard earned cash :bored:

[racingdwarf]

I may not be 100% pro lipo, BUT the BRCA are going to have to bring them in a some time as they are the future of the rc battery industry.How and when is the question.

Oh yer....JCB you know I will give you a 10quid a set for your cells:lol:

[JohnM]

Why not allow the use of LiPos in Regionals next year, with a view to bringing them in for National in 2010? due to the cell list this year allowing 2007 cells at Regionals for 2008 only, alot of us who don't do the Nationals, would have to be buying new cells anyway, why not let us buy something worth having, ie LiPo.

Didn't the same sort of thing happen with brushless a few years back, Regionals one year, Nationals the next?

To quote a friend of mine, "not allowing LiPos in Regionals next year, would be like lighting your house with candles"

[Lee]

clubs could end up racing to one thing and the BRCA to another, reminds me of stockcar racing with Spedeworth and trackstar, same classes just different rules

This happened a few years ago in on road when one series and class allowed stock metal hydride cells and others didnt, if you raced 2 series then you needed 2 different types of cells to be competitive :thumbdown:

[mobile chicane]

I'm sure I've seen B44's with them too!?

Dave

I've got the trakpower 4800's in my b44 no problem, extend battery posts by 1 cm and in they pop just add a bit of weight to balance the car and off you go

[Benh]

1) They don’t fit in my 4wd and others without some serious modification, thus increasing the cost to either get a new car or chassis made, defeating the object that I would save money because I only have to buy a couple of packs.

What happens when someone else has new team car with layout and geometry is a leap forward and is far superior than the rest. You say, "no you can't race that car mine is inferior" - OR - do you go to you manufacturer and say - I need a competitive car. Make a new chassis to incorporate xyz. Then the manufacturer has an upgrade part to sell to all those buying a car based on your results (Why sponsor you if this is any different). Upgrades hold the sales up whilst a new car is being developed. Everyone is a winner except those not wanting to change.

As far as having to alter battery posts. I see bulk heads, wishbones, drive shafts dremel'd and altered, changing shocks to different manufacturers, drilling pistons. If these same people can't drill a hole and move a battery post I would be very surprised.

2) May put new comers off, as the initial price seems slightly higher ok so in the long run you save money, but is a beginner going to be looking long term straight away?

Newcomers will either buy second hand, as they do now. And in this case is less likely to get a set of duds - which is exactly what you get when buying NiMh second hand.

4) Could cause issues for shops with stock of equipment that is no longer popular with racers.


LiPo's haven't crept up on the world and appeared out of a worm hole. If I ran my business without an eye on the future I too would get a pinch by not being on the ball. But it will only be a problem on those stores that have overstocked. How would you feel about a local shop who had a massive stock of 56k modems - You would say, "Didn't you see the broadband revolution?"

5) I (along with quite a few others) rely on selling my season old batteries at the end of the year to a club / regional racer to help finance my next years purchases. This is either going to end up in me selling them at a seriously low price or not even be able to shift them as the club / regional racer will prefer the ease of use and apparent performance from LIPO. Also as Racingdwarf has said makes equipment such as dischargers almost worthless.

We all do. But the prospect of LiPo's is killing the market - They haven't been approved yet. So it's the market force - NOT - the approval lists that is driving the price down. By them not allowing LiPo's next year only delays the inevitable, it will not bring the second hand value up.

Besides, you want the price to go up, so you can sell your soon to be worthless gear to a noob at a higher rate - that they will then lose on very soon after. How disenfranchised will they be?


6) Although there may be no significant performance advantage on tracks such as Worksop, Kidderminster or Stotfold that are either low grip or relatively small and technical an advantage would surely be seen at places with tracks of similar size to Oswestry and Talywain. I know in our region we have two tracks where an advantage is had by running brushless, let alone having a slightly lighter car with a smidge more voltage.

More voltage? Your cars are rated at 7.2v - What do your matched cells, that are overcharged kick out. Not 7.2 I am sure.


7) This is a bit more general and could include the large capacity cells and brushless motors but I feel it takes away some of the driving skills that were required to last a 5 minute race, everyone can now have a really quick car for 5 minutes. Which isn’t always a good thing. Do you really want to be trying to avoid potential unguided missiles as a newcomer gets sucked into thinking that they need LIPO and 4.5 brushless to be competitive.

This I disagree. Run time should never be a determining factor of driving skill. Driving skill is by definition the ability to drive skillfully - Not driving to see how much longer you can extend battery run times.


8) Scrutineering could take longer and be made more difficult.

How - Why?. There will be an approved list. This doesn't make sense. Manufacturer labels, clearly packaged, products being widely accessible etc etc?


9) Increase in the number of rules.

This is the job of the BRCA - They write the rules based on the long term benefits of the sport/ hobby. And really, what needs to be typed. Most of it's already written. Don't charge above 1C - Use a balancer and make sure they are on the approved list.


10) Certain clubs may chose to get more racing in as LIPO don’t require the maintenance and apparent cooling down period after they have been used. I know it’s already been mentioned in our region that because we only have 3 heats on a good day that we could race every 20 minutes eeek, which is just impractical for anyone not having a LIPO.

You can run 3 races in 20 minutes. But before we get into that one as I agree, it's not practical at the competitive regional/ national level. Having one run per hour is too long. This will address the balance. Peaking cells is to negate the resistance in cells - LiPo has next to Zero. Brilliant!



So to summarise for me to be able to run LIPO for next year I would have to....
.......
7) It would probably be a good idea to get a voltage thingy for the ESC too as from what people say LIPO don’t like going to flat.

Once again - I bought a GTB Novak ESC (Spread Spektrum) - it has one pre-installed because the market was leaning toward LiPo, I bought one that was (I hope) future proof.

It's not just price - It will be cheaper in the long run. Once you have the equipment, your consumables costs will drop.

As a representative you must be aware that 1 - this hobby/sport needs new blood. Brushless, LiPo's are all a step in the right direction. It's going to cost you personally a little more, but it's not just about you.

Secondly, you browse these forums and must have seen the steady ramping up of Trakpowers marketing, their sponsorships, prize giveaways etc. It's a clear signal when a company of a new technology does any of this, change is on the horizon. Watching Oople sales section over the past couple of months - the amount of people shipping out NiMh cells, chargers etc has all increased. They all saw it coming and made the sales getting the highest market value.

And finally. Those who appear to oppose LiPos are old hands. As a similie, it's the same as listening to Cantankerous Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be young. Or in this case, Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be a Noob. This hobby is a Sub-Culture, it's very difficult to get into. It's about fun, driving skills, sociability and getting some newcomers to make up for dwindling numbers. Make it easier, make it level on technology and the driving standards will go up. Or maybe this is your advantage and the fear is, you'll lose it?

[SlowOne]

And finally. Those who appear to oppose LiPos are old hands. As a similie, it's the same as listening to Cantankerous Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be young. Or in this case, Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be a Noob. This hobby is a Sub-Culture, it's very difficult to get into. It's about fun, driving skills, sociability and getting some newcomers to make up for dwindling numbers. Make it easier, make it level on technology and the driving standards will go up. Or maybe this is your advantage and the fear is, you'll lose it?And finally...

There is nothing quite so sure of their own invincibility as the young. You need to remember that if you haven't personally experienced something, you can't possibly understand it. As you are not old, you don't know...

That the old never forget what it's like to be young. The reason they get cantankerous, as you put it, is because the young have no idea what it's like to be older, and they have no experience to draw on when they say what they say. The old know that youth is wasted on the young. We do remember what it is like to be young, and a noob, and your almost unbelievable arrogance in assuming we don't is beyond decent standards of behaviour. The world doesn't revolve around you...

"Make it easier, make it level on technology..." fantastic idea - can you show me any sport, hobby or business where it is? No. The Soviet Union spent 70 years making millions miserable (and killing millions, too) to prove that you cannot level the playing field. I've been in this hobby over 30 years - it's never been level on anything, and better people than you and me have tried. LiPo is not a leveller, it is a divider - it divides those who can afford to convert from those who can't.

My fear is this - LiPo is a transient technology waiting for A123, Lithium and other battery technologies to mature. As far as car manufacturers and portable electronics are concerned, it is a dead technology - their money is going into these other technologies for development. You are making people invest in something that in three years time will be obsolete. If I had to throw a couple of hundred pounds at my hobby again, I'd be pissed off, not having any fun.

While you put me down as a Cantankerous Old Timer, I'll put you down as an Arrogant Young Ignoramus. My deep joy in this situation is that you cannot learn what I know - you will just have to wait until you are older - no matter how hard you try; age and treachery will always outwit youth and exuberance! When you get off your high horse and make this hobby inclusive of everyone, I'll get off mine. :p

[LBC]

Deja vu or what!!
Go back a few years and we heard the same old negative drivel regarding Nimhs....."I'll have to bin my nicad charger" etc, etc. Total tosh!
It has always been this way....that's what technology is all about....going forwards.
The manufacturers will adapt to fit the new technology as they have always done in the past; and we will not bin our old components, we will sell them on to someone else -because there is always someone else who'll want them!
A certain contributor to this thread was dishing-out the same old negative crap about brushless motors a year ago - he's got one now!
Slowone, it's time you put aside The Beatles and start listening to QOTSA!
Yours,
Cantankerous Jim.

[mark christopher]

Deja vu or what!!
Go back a few years and we heard the same old negative drivel regarding Nimhs....."I'll have to bin my nicad charger" etc, etc. Total tosh!
It has always been this way....that's what technology is all about....going forwards.
The manufacturers will adapt to fit the new technology as they have always done in the past; and we will not bin our old components, we will sell them on to someone else -because there is always someone else who'll want them!
A certain contributor to this thread was dishing-out the same old negative crap about brushless motors a year ago - he's got one now!
Slowone, it's time you put aside The Beatles and start listening to QOTSA!
Yours,
Cantankerous Jim.

spot on jim

[Lee]

WOW, look what Cockerill has started again, first it was tyres and now lipo`s :lol:

I think a lot of people on here have very valid points for and against lipo?

Personally i will be using them in anger for the first time over the winter and i like the idea of them because it will allow me to use 2 cars on the same day, Easy

BUT............

I will have to keep my Nimh cells and use them for regionals which is a bit of a ball ache but thats life.

I never actually thought about it up until a few days ago but i have just replaced my gear over the last month, ie new charger/equaliser etc but didnt really think that lipos wont need to be equalised. :confused: but i also think that some tracks will suit nimh better next year and some will benefit from lipo cells.

Will this become a tuning option? Its easy to swap between them in 2wd but 4wd may become a bit of a pain but thats life, nobody likes gluing tyres but we all do it.

I think Ben H has some points but i also think he is way wide of the mark on some others, saying that Old timers are against it is wrong. Our very own OldTimer is the one who is putting a set of rules together for the BRCA handbook, we also have Mark Christopher who i remember racing radion race car series on road when i was about 12, these 2 alone are championing lipo with the support of many other top national drivers and Multiple European `A`Finalist Tom Cockerill.

Technology does move on we know this but even if lipo is only round for 3 years, whats wrong with that?? We have seen Nimh increase so much over the last decade (ish) to the point that they are becoming dangerous, in a world of Health and safety surely that alone would warrant serious consideration for a change.

A few people know that at the F2`s the other week i had a cell go bang. I thought it only happened to those who abused their cells, my cells had been equalised and charged correctly, they were in my car ready to go for a practice and they did not peak for some reason, i heard little ben squeal as he shouted me from the next tent as they were hissing, it melted the battery strap and i emptied them onto the grass, this is where the series of comedy events begins, i kicked the cells away aiming for an open piece of grass but they curled off under someones mondeo, i then had to scoop them out with my foot only for them to become stuck under the tyre, mean while im waiting for these to take my leg off when they go up, i managed to clear them and get them into an open area, approx 30 seconds later Bang, they went off like a shot gun and i was thinking if they had of done that whilst i was getting them out of the car etc i could well be blind now. These cells have reached there limit now IMO

[LBC]

Thanks Mark - you a QOTSA fan too!:)

Lee, I think you've misinterpreted benh's post.
He wasn't having ago at us old farts - he was, as he said, using it as a similie....which is why I can't understand SlowOne's downright rude reply;
and going by his remarks I can only assume his house has been glazed with unrefined glass for the past 30 years!

[Benh]

There is nothing quite so sure of their own invincibility as the young. You need to remember that if you haven't personally experienced something, you can't possibly understand it. As you are not old, you don't know...

I'll assume, that you aren't making assumptions here.

But messing around with dischargers, preparing cells for hours. This is incredibly time consuming. This was to obtain more power than you had with a standard product, or to gain a personal advantage. But then that didn't last long, because everyone then started doing it. This doesn't have to be the case now - Saving time and money.

and your almost unbelievable arrogance in assuming we don't is beyond decent standards of behaviour. The world doesn't revolve around you...

You're right it does not. Which is why I have put forward an argument that does not benefit me directly in the short term. I am working very hard to try and encourage new people into this hobby in the local area, and investing a lot of my own time and money to help make this happen. I have no commercial interest and will never expect to see a return on it. I am putting an argument forward based on these opinions I have experienced.

can you show me any sport, hobby or business where it is? No. ............... it's never been level on anything, and better people than you and me have tried. LiPo is not a leveller, it is a divider - it divides those who can afford to convert from those who can't.

I agree no sport is equal. When I say make it easier, I meant make it easier to get into. As for levelling the field, only in terms of what each individual can achieve without spending hours and hours on it and money on it. NiMh - Equalisers, dischargers, seperate cell chargers etc etc. If a noob uses NiMh -especially second hand ones, the difference in power from different packs is incredible. Therefore how do you build consistency in what you do on the controls to how the car behaves. Allowing them consistency on power will get them to the next stage quicker, set ups and developing driving skill.



My fear is this - LiPo is a transient technology waiting for A123, Lithium and other battery technologies to mature. As far as car manufacturers and portable electronics are concerned, it is a dead technology - their money is going into these other technologies for development. You are making people invest in something that in three years time will be obsolete. If I had to throw a couple of hundred pounds at my hobby again, I'd be pissed off, not having any fun.

Valid point - The lifespan of a technology. However, you have stated 3 years.
1 - Add up what you spend on NiMh in one year. Add up what you have to do to keep those things matched and competitive.
Either your not competitive and have no intention of being – which means this entire argument is pointless to you - Or, you're spending in one year what you would spend on LiPo’s in 3.
2 – LiPo Charger and Balancer - £70-80. Divide by 3. £25.00 per year lost – If the equipment had absolutely no resale value.

While you put me down as a Cantankerous Old Timer,
It was a "simile".

And as for me making them invest? Really? I have that much power? No, I didn't think so. People are making their own minds up. Every person at our club who competes in the regional and intends to do next years regionals have converted to LiPo. Newcomers are buying LiPo. If LiPo is not approved - The dwindling regional numbers will lose about another 33% of its numbers. (EDIT - For our region EoE)

I'll put you down as an Arrogant Young Ignoramus.
The great thing about this is that it’s your opinion. I can’t argue with a personal opinion.

What I can argue is that I have rattled your cage and this was unintentional. My main argument is with Jonathon. Not him personally, I have nothing against him personally, always very friendly and very helpful.

But he is the “influential son” and in many cases the voice of our regional rep.

Opening line of the BRCA mission statement:
“The BRCA exist to promote the construction and racing of radio controlled cars”



My deep joy in this situation is that you cannot learn what I know - you will just have to wait until you are older - no matter how hard you try; age and treachery will always outwit youth and exuberance! When you get off your high horse and make this hobby inclusive of everyone, I'll get off mine.

I am not naive to think that this hobby can be all inclusive. But I do believe it can be less obstructive.

[Benh]

I think Ben H has some points but i also think he is way wide of the mark on some others, saying that Old timers are against it is wrong. Our very own OldTimer is the one who is putting a set of rules together for the BRCA handbook, we also have Mark Christopher who i remember racing radion race car series on road when i was about 12, these 2 alone are championing lipo with the support of many other top national drivers and Multiple European `A`Finalist Tom Cockerill.


Lee, sorry I didn't make this clear. I meant this as a simile from a common stereotype on age. Not that older people in the hobby are Cantankerous.

Also, "appears" preceded it, which was to devalue my comment to a loosely backed opinion open to argument. Which I must say you have done. It's interesting to know some of the advocates for LiPo.

Old Timers, was meant for those with years of RC under their belt, rather than any direct relation to age. We have a few young Old Timers at the club.

[burgie]

if Lipo's are the industries "old" technology and are due to be replaced by something new in three years time, judging by what I have spent on my Lipo cells in the past two years, I will have to fork out about £150 to see me through the next three years.....:thumbsup:

I have sold old my Ni-Mih stuff over the past two years, and bought Lipo chargers for myself and my two children. All of those charges can support this new A123 technology or whatever it's called, so they won't need replacing.

The argument that Lipo is now old technology is not a valid reason to disallow the introduction/adoption of them as a recognised power source for our cars.

[Lee]

Lee, sorry I didn't make this clear. I meant this as a simile from a common stereotype on age. Not that older people in the hobby are Cantankerous.

Also, "appears" preceded it, which was to devalue my comment to a loosely backed opinion open to argument. Which I must say you have done. It's interesting to know some of the advocates for LiPo.

Old Timers, was meant for those with years of RC under their belt, rather than any direct relation to age. We have a few young Old Timers at the club.


Ben, Sorry if i misread your post, it was a long post and i have to minimise oOple everytime someone walks past :lol: so i may lose the context somewhat :(

[dancoog]

Biggest difference I saw when over at the cactus was pro's with one pack mounted in their car and just knocking it on a charger between rounds to top it up. Wow can you say easy.. come on the ability to just top up one pack per car all day long has to appeal. Think of the freedom to run multiple classed to do more work on your car or to go and watch more racing!! This has to be an easy one come on the word easy must appeal to some of you. :thumbsup:

As for chassis needing to be changed the only one that I've seen that can't be changed very easily is the AC. the xx4 takes them down one side as will most other cars (pred and xfactory) is this a real issue I don't think so.

These are our fun days out of the house, racing and seeing friends. Lipo just increase the ease of use and let you have more time for the true joys of racing and BSing with your mates.:thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

lee for the record im not 40!!!! im over it lol

sory tho can not remember you, what class were you doing?

[Lee]

:lol::lol: i didnt mention ages :thumbsup:

i was doing scale saloon, it was the first year i think that they had a series for them, they were the up and coming class and the wide scale tourers were the main class, i think you were running F1`s as well at the time along with the likes of kris Kennedy.

The good old days of tire truing after every run and 1700 cells :thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

yup defo good, fun then, edited my post id not put it properly!!

[DCM]

Those who appear to oppose LiPos are old hands. As a similie, it's the same as listening to Cantankerous Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be young. Or in this case, Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be a Noob. This hobby is a Sub-Culture, it's very difficult to get into. It's about fun, driving skills, sociability and getting some newcomers to make up for dwindling numbers. Make it easier, make it level on technology and the driving standards will go up. Or maybe this is your advantage and the fear is, you'll lose it?[/FONT][/COLOR]

haha, now when you have gotton your foot completely out of your mouth..... I know a lot of us 'old timers' as if your young, once your above 30... thats old, lol, who are pioneering LiPo and new Technology...... But we have the ability to pull on experience to maybe hold back a little.

My biggest concern with LiPo, and still is, is safety, from user abuse, where there has to be a state of transition of technology, like ESC's with lipo cut-offs and lipo friendly chargers, as there is so much old stuff out there, it is when it filters down to the lowest club level, that is the biggest concern.

For me, seeing them in use, and understanding what makes em go bang, I am more than happy to use them, and it will bennefit me greatly once me and the brood have fully gone to brushless and lipo (Mr Harris will know what it is like for me at racing).

[Benh]

[quote=DCM;159044]haha, now when you have gotton your foot completely out of your mouth..... I know a lot of us 'old timers' as if your young, once your above 30... thats old, lol, who are pioneering LiPo and new Technology...... But we have the ability to pull on experience to maybe hold back a little.

My biggest concern with LiPo, and still is, is safety, from user abuse, where there has to be a state of transition of technology, like ESC's with lipo cut-offs and lipo friendly chargers, as there is so much old stuff out there, it is when it filters down to the lowest club level, that is the biggest concern.

[quote]

I'm 31. Please don't make me type simile again.
Please let this be the end of it: -
Simile - To Liken one thing to another. Sly as a fox, doesn't mean you're a sneaky ginger
Cantankerous - Disagreeable to change
Appears - To show a one sided opinion not based on fact.

Health and Safety: -

I agree on your points of safety. Let's take the delivery of my LiPo's this morning; containing an A4 sheet of warnings and do's and don'ts. It has all the warnings and guidance required. Then there's the clubs, a requirment for all clubs to ensure their members understand the health and safety issues before racing. After that people may go to regionals, once again compliance required.

Health and Safety I agree is an absolute must and should be taken seriously. However, do we really have to protect everyone from Darwinism? You can't stop stupid people being stupid. If they don't cook their parcel shelf or their hands from an overcharged cell, they will get run over by a train because they were listening to their Ipod whilst crossing the track.

[SlowOne]

Benh, thanks for the reply, but it still doesn't make sense to me. All RTR kits are sold with NiMh, and you're saying you can promote the hobby by getting people to immediately spend another arm, and another leg, on LiPo???

The view people have of NiMh is of IB cells. If you haven't used the latest EnerG, EP and Orion SHO cells, then please don't talk about what NiMh does.

Fortunately, I don't have this problem. The class I run doesn't need LiPo, and isn't suffering any change in participation because it runs NiMh. We can wait around, without spending another penny on an obsolete technology (;)) until the real future arrives. I've spent less than two packs of LiPos on my cells (good ones) and they'll last me a season.

Enjoy your LiPo, but please stop telling me that I have to move on - I don't. NiMh remains the majority power source in electric cars, so try to promote the sport by keeping everyone in, eh?

[mark christopher]

Benh, thanks for the reply, but it still doesn't make sense to me. All RTR kits are sold with NiMh, and you're saying you can promote the hobby by getting people to immediately spend another arm, and another leg, on LiPo???

The view people have of NiMh is of IB cells. If you haven't used the latest EnerG, EP and Orion SHO cells, then please don't talk about what NiMh does.

Fortunately, I don't have this problem. The class I run doesn't need LiPo, and isn't suffering any change in participation because it runs NiMh. We can wait around, without spending another penny on an obsolete technology (;)) until the real future arrives. I've spent less than two packs of LiPos on my cells (good ones) and they'll last me a season.

Enjoy your LiPo, but please stop telling me that I have to move on - I don't. NiMh remains the majority power source in electric cars, so try to promote the sport by keeping everyone in, eh?

dear mr winton

as has been pointed out did you not have the same view on brushless??
one thing is for sure, the obsolite will be nimh first

[Benh]

Enjoy your LiPo, but please stop telling me that I have to move on - I don't.

I haven't mentioned excluding NiMh? I haven't told you to move on? My point is, allow others to have the choice. Don't push for their exclusion on what I and others I converse with consider as weak and floored arguments.

All I ask for is the, "allowance for those to make an informed decision"

EoE regionals will suffer as a result of them not being included.

I would be interested to find out what the projected impact, if any, the exclusion of LiPo would be on other regions?

[Benh]

Or - if there would be a negative impact on the inclusion of LiPo's. Would there be any who would say - NO!, I am not entering if you allow them?

This I would find surprising. My NiMh's keep up with LiPo users (of similar driving ability) I don't feel I am at a disadvantage.

[GRIFF55]

I think there would be more people that would say they are not going to race if lipo's aren't allowed

[SlowOne]

There is no issue with LiPos, there is an issue with people who leave the impression that the only way to go it LiPos. Of the six electric classes in the BRCA, only two can use LiPo under their current Rules, and yet all we hear is that Rules have to change to allow LiPos!

If you want to run LiPo in Off-Road and TC Super Stock, knock yourselves out. But please change the rhetoric to be more inclusive of all the people who don't run in those classes, and stop giving the impression that they are not available.

Mark, grow up. BL has not proved to be anything like as easy to use as was promised, which was always my point. It didn't take off until the motors were made to feel more like BR. They have proved more expensive than BR to remain competitive. Failures are not uncommon, and expensive. The Stock classes (10.5) are now much more difficult to set-up as they motors have adjustable timing to sort out as well as ratio.

I use them, they're good enough, and the classes were set up to kill BR. However, I spend as much time on maintenance as I ever did, and as the motors get more and more bullet-proof, the speedos become the weakest link. They're good products, but they are not what was promised. So it will be with LiPo.

As Benh says, NiMh is every bit as good as LiPo, and since you, Mark, have not used the latest NiMh cells, you don't know how good they are. That you cannot be inclusive of all the products in the market to the overall benefit of electric RC is very disappointing.

[Albertini]

Phew...heavy going this thread, but here's my thoughts.:)

Being relatively newish to the sport/hobby I was amazed at the restrictions in place to rule regionals, almost to the point when I start thinking why bother with it at all.( like some people do now).

In my view the less rules about what you can and can't use the better, its these rules and restrictions that put people off. If you want more people to race you have to open the door wider, allowing lipo's ( and the more reasonably priced ones, not just the 3-4 there are at the moment).

I think it was last year at Eastrax a number of people didn't turn up because there budget 3700 sticks were'nt legal, that was one of my first regionals and it just seem like madness. The same as if your cells have a black end or a red end......gives us a break and let us get our cars to the start line!:)

OK some rules are for safety, but thats down to the manufacturer to insure, not the BRCA who as I understand provide advice and liability insurance for us ,not our products. :)

Rip this apart if you want to guys...you'll only find less people trackside.:eh?:

[DCM]

well, some rules are there to keep the cost down, like the jan 1st cut-off for submitting cells.... this means that one list is produced at the start of the year, so you didn't fork out for 6 packs, then 2 months later, a much better cell comes out, and to be competitive, you got to buy them.

Slowone, I don't think anyne is advocating that everyone must go LiPo, but they can be run in conjunction, and we are only looking at proposals for the 10th off-road. When I get my kids brushless and lipo, for racing, I will go from carrying around about 20 packs of batteris... to 7-8 cells.... far easier, performance is constant too.

As the call about 'not fitting chassis' I remember a lot of issue's when cell capacity when from the ubiquitous GP3700 to the IB4200 cell, the cells were a smidge longer and a smidge fatter, so in the B4, it made the cells tight across the chassis and needing different battery bars, and in some TC's, the slightly fatter cells screwed up the milling of battery slots.

Currently, there are two classes that allo, Super Stock in on-road and Bikes.

[Albertini]

On the submitting of cells or lipos for next year, am I right in thinking that only those cells/lipos sent in by the manufacture are looked at?

Now most budget brands are focused on bashing etc so probably won't submit because they don't focus on racing. Dosen't this in itself push up the price of your kit by reducing the competition?:eh?:


Is one hardcased lipo much more of a risk or threat as any other thats been homologated.....surely not as they are being used by kids in the street aren't they?
:)
I suppose I'm just fed up with buying overpriced knackered second hand stuff and can't justify the £'s on new. Cheap lipos and the losi 6.5 are on my Christmas list.:thumbsup: If I can't race at regionals next year with them, so be it.

[DCM]

you got to look at why they are being homologated to be honest... they are tested to see if they withstand impacts and damage to the cell, which can happen in the racing enviroment. Some of the cells would be fine if run in, say a B4, as if you can damage your cells in there... the car is mostly a write off. But you can't say, well if you cells are in the center of the car, you can use any cells, but if your cells are exposed, you can only use these cells....

Some of the shrink wrapped ones offer no protection at all, and to be honest, I would not be happy using them anyways. At least the hard casing offers a certain amount of protection to the cells.

[mobile chicane]

I only run lipo now and would like to do the southern reigonals next year, I have NO problem with those who still use nimh or nicads as they may prefer to use them or have a restreictive budget, I'm lucky to have enough disposable income to get pretty mutch the latest + best kit, it dosent make me a better driver than those with more talent/experiance.

[Lee]

dear mr winton




This makes a lot of sense now :lol:

[Dreadstar]

Where I have found the real problem with lipo's is in trying to find pack sizes to fit in the 1/18th scale cars,especially the Trinity Spyder.The battery tray is only 70mm longx32mm wide,so you really have to search quite hard to find packs to fit in that small an area,and even then,the ones that you do find,tend to be quite low capacity,i.e. around 900-1000mAh,and they're soft packs too.Even using the nimh cells is a swine because of the battery arrangement,which looks like a humppack on steroids,4 cells on the bottom,with 2 cells piggybacked on top.You try buying that configuration off the shelf :thumbdown:. For me,I'm finding that aeroplane Lipo's are about my best bet, but,you don't really have a lot of choice as to the manufacturer,with most of them coming from the far east.

Well,that's my tuppenceworth.:D

[frogger]

In my view the less rules about what you can and can't use the better, its these rules and restrictions that put people off. If you want more people to race you have to open the door wider, allowing lipo's ( and the more reasonably priced ones, not just the 3-4 there are at the moment).

I agree that too many rules does nothing but put people off. The problem is not so much getting the rules in place for the national series, it's those clubs that stick blindly to those rules and follow them as if they are set in stone. This has a much greater impact on the average racer than a potentially over governed national series (which it may or may not be, not the point of this discussion :)).

There is no doubt in my mind that lipo (or another lithium battery type) will replace NIMHs no matter what anyone says. You might as well imbrace it sooner rather than later. There are no arguments anywhere that proves NIMHs better than lipo's as a power source for RC cars/buggies. It's only the stage we are in, the transition period which complicates things a bit. You have folks who have invested quite a bit of money in the old tech that will no doubt have to reinvest to change to the new tech. People will need re-education and a change in habits. But.. it's all worth it.

I find it amazing that people\humans after 10000 years of evolution are still so resistant to change. Even worse is that after 10000 years of evolution we still think farting is funny :lol:

[mark christopher]

Where I have found the real problem with lipo's is in trying to find pack sizes to fit in the 1/18th scale cars,especially the Trinity Spyder.The battery tray is only 70mm longx32mm wide,so you really have to search quite hard to find packs to fit in that small an area,and even then,the ones that you do find,tend to be quite low capacity,i.e. around 900-1000mAh,and they're soft packs too.Even using the nimh cells is a swine because of the battery arrangement,which looks like a humppack on steroids,4 cells on the bottom,with 2 cells piggybacked on top.You try buying that configuration off the shelf :thumbdown:. For me,I'm finding that aeroplane Lipo's are about my best bet, but,you don't really have a lot of choice as to the manufacturer,with most of them coming from the far east.

Well,that's my tuppenceworth.:D

you looked at trakpowers new 18th range? www.trakpower.co.uk (http://www.trakpower.co.uk)

[JBL]

Please look at the BRCA website, regarding proposals put forward at the AGM in September for LIPO inclusion.:confused:

[super__dan]

Looks good, nice one Chris for proposing Lipo, all the other ones look pretty sensibel too.

[Dreadstar]

Sorry Mark,but the Trackpower Lipo's are too big,in either length or breadth.

[Bungleaio]

Please look at the BRCA website, regarding proposals put forward at the AGM in September for LIPO inclusion.:confused:

Where is it? I was on the BRCA site and I couldn't find any info about this years AGM, any chance of a link?

[Cockerill]

www.brca.org > 10th Offroad Section > Top Headline :thumbsup:

[Bungleaio]

Nice one cheers mate. Some good points raised.

[bbq]

I hope EFRA is going to approve the use of LiPo 2009

[Lee]

Do you think they will have a light finger buffet laid on at the EFRA AGM, i`d imagine it is a pleasant experience :thumbsup: