View Full Version : Fuel injection for model cars?
Why not move on technology-wise also for fuel track classes?
Easy, more runtime, more power, less breakage...
We could have a standard EFRA item?
mark christopher
11-09-2008, 07:55 AM
Why not move on technology-wise also for fuel track classes?
Easy, more runtime, more power, less breakage...
We could have a standard EFRA item?
cost would be the problem
Why?
A fuel injection system would not cost much I think. And should be very long lasting. Advantages would be:
-less consumption = you don't need a suitcase full of engines just in case
-LOWER costs, as you keep the engine temperature stable = less overheating & breakage
-more power = you don't need a super hand tuned engine
Look at the A mains of 200mm and 1:8 TR - in the EC or WC - not even those guys can keep the engine running for 45 or 60 minutes. Or make a 5 minute qualification run... very often these days the lucky ones win, not the best drivers...
C'mon... for electrics we now have brushless and lipo, it's time to move on also for fuel classes. Those carburettors are vintage!!! :)
maybe they need to run Sirio :)
I've done some googling:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/attachments/nitro-road/23135d1067347791-fuel-injection-efr801.jpg
From the manual:
Wouldn't it be great if your mechanic could tune your engine perfectly every time, and you wouldn't have to worry about whether or not your engine was too rich or too lean? Even better, wouldn't it be great if your mechanic could ride along in your model, and adjust it for different conditions that would allow the engine to accelerate and perform better? Sounds like sci-fi stuff ? Enter PC/RC.
PC/RC has been manufacturing hobby electronics such as the Digi-Temp digital temperature probe and Digi-Tach tachometers for years, and realized that if they could put all of that technology into one magic box and add a little software, a system could result that could automatically tune your R/C gas engine. After more than a year of testing and development they had a product dubbed the Electronic Fuel Regulator, or EFR, which was light, performed as expected, and had minimal draw on the battery pack.
Now the average or expert racer can have his engine tuned precisely, while in the heat of the competition, and without worry. How does it work? Think of the EFR as fuel injection. Simply stated the EFR consists basically of three parts - the valve, the controller, and the sensor. The sensor transmits information back to the controller, and tells the valve the proper amount of fuel to allow, based on the carburetor opening. The carburetor opening is sensed via the servo output from the receiver.
Installation Pick a suitable location for the processor, and mount it securely. A small hole is necessary in the exhaust manifold, about 1/4 inch (6mm) from the mouth of the manifold where it attaches to the engine.. The valve simply installs in the fuel line between the fuel tank and the carburetor inlet. Now plug the unit into the receiver and plug the throttle servo into the controller and you are ready to program.
Why is the engine running at a cooler temperature? With manual tuning, a mechanic is trying to find a compromise between two needle valves. The transition from low to high requires a richer setting in the middle, to overlap and a leaner setting on the top needle. This leaner setting on the top is what causes most high temperatures, and premature engine failures. Using the EFR is like having many synchronized needle valves, and since they are not compromising, the results are settings which are more precise and not as lean; therefore cooler.
Another thing which has been observed and could be very important to many drivers is the ability to spot a problem before it becomes a bigger problem. If the engine has been running fine and then suddenly starts to run richer and richer you can bet that the rod bearing or something is going bad inside the engine. In testing there was enough advance warning that complete piston/sleeve replacement was avoided by a simple change of the rod. How many good engines will this save? There will also be an occasion when the unit fluctuates between rich and lean. A check of the fuel tank for leaks or the muffler coupler for rips will usually find the culprit.
The biggest difficulty with gas R/C is the inability to get engines to run right. Some have actually quit altogether because of the frustration of trying to tune the carb or finding a mechanic that could tune it well enough to be competitive. Using an EFR is going to change all of that. The EFR, with its enhanced car programming, will extend the life, and increase the performance of car engines as no product has done before. This same thought process is exactly what R.O.A.R. saw as a good enough reason to approve the product for racing.
The future is here and your radio-controlled model can now benefit from a technology that will not only increase your enjoyment and satisfaction, but ultimately improve the hobby.
EFR 801 benefits are :
Optimum mixture throughout the varying throttle setting
Improve fuel management
Reliable engine performance in varying weather conditions
Consistent performance throughout operation
Increase engine life
Automatic shut down on power failure
No adjustments necessary
Maximizes performance
List Price: US$159.95
http://www.rctech.net/forum/nitro-ro...injection.html (http://www.rctech.net/forum/nitro-road/26726-fuel-injection.html)
http://forums.radiocontrolzone.com/s...ad.php?t=26997 (http://forums.radiocontrolzone.com/showthread.php?t=26997)
Seems like they stopped selling it in 2002 due to licensing problems:
http://www.pcrcproducts.com/news.html
O.S. made fuel injection for model engines back in 1999:
http://castlehillhobbies.com.au/comp...mart/Itemid,1/ (http://castlehillhobbies.com.au/component/page,shop.browse/category_id,158/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,1/)
http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/...0sfi/index.htm (http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/2007spring-summer/fs200sfi/index.htm)
http://www.singahobby.com.sg/osm01.html
From Conley Precision Engines:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=artBody;col1 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3825/is_/ai_n8906772?tag=artBody;col1)
http://www.conleyprecision.com/products.htm
So it's not available any more? What a shame:thumbdown:
I remember a few years ago (10 maybe?), an 1/8 RC driver was using a personal device with a small servo and a temp probe. The inboard system was adjusting the main needle permanently so the motor was never too rich or too lean - Ace! :thumbsup: Maybe it was an EFR?
An innovative company like Traxxas or Orion should really make a system like this:)
I'll propose it for EFRA for 2009 (too late this year), and we'll see what happens. It must be a discussion at the AGM first. I think a cooperation between manufacturers will be needed. It looks like this is patented solutions from full scale, and you therefore need to pay for licensing. I envision an EFRA homologated system which can be sold under different brands.
Those who want to use carbs (only) can of course continue doing so.
If we can pull this off it would become mainstream after some years, and make fuel model car racing much more accessible to all drivers. I've seen so much frustration - also from very experienced racers...
A friend of mine tested this approx 10 years ago. He then tested it on an old & worn engine. With the system mounted it outperformed any motor he had ever had. And you could hear it increasing in fast corners. A fixed setting cannot compete with optimum fuel mixture all the way...
rcluke
07-10-2008, 06:29 PM
you can get an intercooler for rc cars
mark christopher
07-10-2008, 09:56 PM
maybe they need to run Sirio :)
and illegal pipes!!
mark christopher
07-10-2008, 10:01 PM
Why?
A fuel injection system would not cost much I think. And should be very long lasting. Advantages would be:
-less consumption = you don't need a suitcase full of engines just in case
-LOWER costs, as you keep the engine temperature stable = less overheating & breakage
-more power = you don't need a super hand tuned engine
Look at the A mains of 200mm and 1:8 TR - in the EC or WC - not even those guys can keep the engine running for 45 or 60 minutes. Or make a 5 minute qualification run... very often these days the lucky ones win, not the best drivers...
C'mon... for electrics we now have brushless and lipo, it's time to move on also for fuel classes. Those carburettors are vintage!!! :)
not cost much?
so you need
fuel pump
throttle body
injector
some form of meetering device
electronics if its not a mechancial system
ok so you ot £50 for a carb, you do that for the same money
you can get an intercooler for rc cars
not much point unless your fitting a turbo!!
List Price: US$159.95
C'mon I'm sure you know very well how much you spend of engines and accesories for a full fuel track season! It's a lot!...
A device like this would pay itself back many times already the first year! :thumbsup:
And NO, the carb does NOT do the same thing! It has one fixed setting, which is far from ideal! Typically the engine leans out too much on the long straights whilst running too rich on the infield. Always a compromise. A fuel injection system adjusts the mixture constantly and gives perfect mixture under all circumstances. There's even a cold start program to reduce wear furthermore!
if it meant that runing nitro, didn't seem such a black art to make your engine run right, it can only be a good thing.
Exactly!
1:8 OR has exploded in interest - and why? You can get a RTR package for next to nothing these days! And beginners are often more tempted by that than electric classes... but soon disappear from the scene after hours of frustration...
For 1:8 TR I've seen several times experienced racers blow up more than 3 engines in one day...
Keep in mind also that if this becomes the de facto standard the prices will also drop continously...
mark christopher
07-10-2008, 11:16 PM
come on the os engine was listed as $999.99
and hat was in 1999, if it worked that well it would be main stream now
the product in your picture still nesds the carb as a throtle body!!
carb does not have just one fixed setting, or they would not fit low mid and high adjustments!!
There's a lot of politics, timing and coincidences as to what is mainstream or not... The MiniDisc is far superior to the CD for instance, but was introduced too late... Anyway, let's not get into a hopeless discussion.
The O.S. 4-stroke aeroplane engine I guess we'd better keep out of the equation.
The PC/RC system as I understand used the carb yes, which is perfectly ok! It sounds like a simple yet effective solution. It logs the servo movements (=amount of throttle opening) and the exhaust temperature. And then adjusts the fuel pressure in order to keep the temperature stable. And according to different profiles. The cold start profile/program probably runs it extra rich for a while.
I THINK (I cannot be 100% sure) that if the big manufacturers did an effort here we could have a great system :thumbsup: That PC/RC company might not have had the necessary marketing resources... think about it - how many heard of it "in time"? And many still deny such a solution can work at all... :)
The EFRA discusson proposal is written and will be sent in 2009 if it's passed at our national convention in 4 weeks...
I proposed to test it only in UK first! ;)
mark christopher
08-10-2008, 07:06 AM
no point making it efra apoved until you have a working product to aprove!!
EFRA discusson proposal
EFRA uses two different proposal forms:
-general discussion
-rule change
mark christopher
08-10-2008, 07:34 AM
ah so you want to discus a probduct thats not avalable to see if they would accept it?
peetbee
08-10-2008, 08:04 AM
That makes sense. No point in anyone trying to develop something if it can't be used!
PC/RC would have been far better off if they got their product homologated... that's why I want EFRA to discuss the matter with the factories first of all.
If no factories find this interesting I'll keep my mouth shut of course. I'm just hoping some associated members will attend the AGM and seriously consider the possibility.
Technically it's possible. It has already been done. If someone can get hold of the EFR 801 you already have the technology at hand.
As to cost it has been proved that it can be made and sold for a reasonable price.
In order for fair competition I'd like to see a "standard" software & hardware that the manufacturers agree upon, and that EFRA then later can homologate.
Clear now?
mark christopher
08-10-2008, 04:42 PM
good luck,
SlowOne
09-10-2008, 05:47 AM
come on the os engine was listed as $999.99
and hat was in 1999, if it worked that well it would be main stream now
the product in your picture still nesds the carb as a throtle body!!
carb does not have just one fixed setting, or they would not fit low mid and high adjustments!!
no point making it efra apoved until you have a working product to aprove!!
ah so you want to discus a probduct thats not avalable to see if they would accept it?
Mark, I wonder if you can imagine the fun I am going to have with you as you wriggle and writhe trying to resist the introduction of new technology.
Every dog has its day, and after all the crap you gave me about resisting new technology, not encompassing the inevitable, you can bet your sweet bippy that I am going to hound you until you say "Yes, we need to embrace new technology and I will support SHY in getting the Rules changed and the product accepted."
Imagine how big my smile is, and how long it is going to last... :D :D :D :D (where's the smilie for an arse on the floor?!!!! :D :D :D :D)
SlowOne
09-10-2008, 05:50 AM
good luck,
MArk, are you not going to support progress and work with SHY to get the new technology in? Are you going to stick with old technology? Don't you move with the times? ;)
LOL!!! :D:D:D
Thanks, you've just made my day!
Mark will still be running LiPos 30 years from now when the rest of us run on wireless current ;):p
SlowOne
09-10-2008, 08:18 PM
LOL!!! :D:D:D
Thanks, you've just made my day!
Mark will still be running LiPos 30 years from now when the rest of us run on wireless current ;):p"Mark" and "running" are two words I never expected to see in the same sentence! :D :D Has he been training for the London Marathon?!! ;)
mark christopher
09-10-2008, 09:07 PM
hardly resiting NEW technology, fuel injection was around in 1999 for scale ic engines
ill suport new technology when i know it works,(10 years is long enough to develope somin if it works ns is viable)
im not for fuel injection, TILL i see it work and is a CHEAPER alternative,then ill embrace it until its bn manuctured and tested b a manufacture i se no point in saying its what the world of rc needs, by looking at it on paper.
just simple common sence
think of it like this oh slow one, like you its old and not new!!
i do feel 12th cars however have lite the blue touch paper they need to embrace current tecnolgy and adapt thier chassis format to prevent self destruction!!
mark christopher
09-10-2008, 09:13 PM
LOL!!! :D:D:D
Thanks, you've just made my day!
Mark will still be running LiPos 30 years from now when the rest of us run on wireless current ;):p
nope ill be dead by then..................................
SlowOne
10-10-2008, 05:40 AM
i do feel 12th cars however have lite the blue touch paper they need to embrace current tecnolgy and adapt thier chassis format to prevent self destruction!!Mmmmm... 12th participation increasing - no LiPo available. TC participation decreasing - LiPo available. Go figure...
mark christopher
10-10-2008, 07:06 AM
hmmm racers not happy though buggies using lipo. Class growing
SlowOne
10-10-2008, 07:07 PM
LiPos not legal in Off-Road Nationals, class growing for last two years... using NiMh...
mark christopher
10-10-2008, 07:19 PM
LiPos not legal in Off-Road Nationals, class growing for last two years... using NiMh...
nationals no.....................club where bigger numbers come from to fill nationals yes!
but why have you brought lipo into this thread?
SlowOne
11-10-2008, 04:19 PM
To ask why you, who pushed for LiPo as new technology for use in National class you don't run, and takes the piss out of anyone who you think doesn't use new technology, is now not prepared to promote a new technology in your National class.
You have an answer for everything, Mark, except why you won't promote new technology for Gas Racers. :thumbdown:
mark christopher
11-10-2008, 05:09 PM
To ask why you, who pushed for LiPo as new technology for use in National class you don't run, and takes the piss out of anyone who you think doesn't use new technology, is now not prepared to promote a new technology in your National class.
You have an answer for everything, Mark, except why you won't promote new technology for Gas Racers. :thumbdown:
ok
1/ its NOT new
2/ i can not buy it to try it http://www.pcrcproducts.com/news.html
3/ i dont think it will improve my racing my carb WORKS
4/ the lrp/centre point cooling system for ic cars fell on its arse, why? too costly and no gains
5/ its not MY class i race in one ic national section, there are at leat 5 other ic sections, so take your sad ass and moan at them too
finally how the hell do i promote somthing thats not available?
slowone just for you http://www.mark.christopher.btinternet.co.uk/Webpictures/finger.gif
SlowOne
12-10-2008, 04:33 AM
Bite, bite, bite. Gotcha!! :D :D :D
mark christopher
12-10-2008, 09:31 AM
Bite, bite, bite. Gotcha!! :D :D :D
i know i love playing with you lol
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