Lipos, how to get approval.

[andy110m]

Anyone know what the procedure is to get lipos approved on the BRCA list?

I've heard it costs £40?

I've been talking with a few people about putting a few quid in each to get lower cost lipos approved. It'll save us all money in the long run over having to buy the much higher cost big brand cells.

I just don't know where to start.

[neiloliver]

You need to contact Paul Worsley. Paul's contact details are in the BRCA handbook.

Neil

[Northy]

Read this:

http://www.brca.org/content/electric-board/1396

and this:

http://www.brca.org/content/battery-homologation-procedure/1399

G

[beale]

I'm sure you have to be an importer and that's the point as long as there are uk sellers and after sales service the addition may only be £40
I could be very wrong but sure I read it somewhere

[grimidol]

i looked at a few of the new shorty packs and some no one sells in the uk lol.

[Cremegg]

id love to do this too

get the Turnigy Nanotechs Saddle/shorty packs approved

very popular and cheap too

shame these cant be used a regionals/nationals though

[blue_pinky]

It's not the money that is the issue...it's all supporting information and manufacturing data that you won't be able to deal with!

Part of the process is to get some base line safety, quality control and responsibility in place for a technology that has some degree of volatility to it.

So unless you want to start digging around with the manufacturers and how they make the cheap cells...and then take responsibility for them in the long term...you really have no hope!

Product certification in all industries is an absolute mine field...although this one will be relatively simple compared to a lot of other consumer/medical/industrial standards, you really won't want to go there! There is a reason cheap cells aren't on that list...and are cheap! ;)

[Dan Pickard]

Why are they (nano tech cells) ROAR approved then?

[mark christopher]

As the distributor/submitter your also answerable to any safety issues that arise from the product.

[DCM]

Don't forget, public liability to...

[MattW]

Why are they (nano tech cells) ROAR approved then?

Ask the UK distributor..........

It's not a secret process, all of the info is on the web page, if the UK distributor wanted them to be on the BRCA lists they could follow that process.

[luniemiester]

Or alternatively you can put a proposal in at the AGM to do maybe the following - remember if you propose it and it gets to the vote you can change the rules

1) ROAR approved batteries to be automatically allowed on the approved list as last time I checked its the same process as BRCA regarding dimensions, case etc
And if the Americans can approve based on their ideals then why shouldn't the rest of the IFMAR blocks accept automatically?

2) vote out the use of batteries from the BRCA list only and insist on hard case cells only

Personally I much prefer my nano techs over any of my BRCA approved batteries - they are cheaper, perform at least as good if not better, balance well and don't seem to lose any performance over a run compared to my others.

[DynaMight]

Not sure why some people instantly think that if something is cheap it means its an inferior product. It's fairly well known that bigger brand companies charge more for items (in all areas of business)

I'm not going to pretend I know how the BRCA add batteries to the list, but imo just because they're not on the list, it doesnt make them dangerous. If you look around most club meets, you'll probably see more Turnigy than anything else. If they kept blowing up or didnt last, people wouldnt bother with them. If they were on the list, then you'd probably see even more than you currently see!

[Alan Reeves]

No reason nanotech shouldn't be on that list. I see far more of these than any other battery around here.
But after a few years of them already being widely used I suspect there is more to it than meets the eye...

[DrPaul]

Luniemiester statements are right. If you want to change the rules of the BRCA then the membership will need to get behind this, put a proposal together for the AGM and vote with their feet, attend the next BRCA AGM and cast their votes.

To stir up a hornets nest many of the BRCA rules are out dated but unless the membership puts together some proposals and get of their backsides to vote the in nothing will change.

Cheaper than recognised brands does NOT equal poor quality. I deal with a number of electronics and lipo suppliers in the far east and many of the non approved lipos have exactly the same lipo inside as the one on the BRCA/ROAR approved lists and the same goes for speedos and motors but for many suppliers who are just interested in the fun/basher market they are not going to pay to have their product on the approved lists.

Hardcased lipos charged in a charging sack should be more than sufficient for regional events as should commercially available motors and speedo. The BRCA retain the right to inspect anyone equipment if anyone is suspected of cheating so there are rules in place should they be needed.

More cost effective racing should be encouraged in these austere times and cheaper equipment is a major factor for bringing new people into our sport as any returning racer with bear testament to. You speak to any racer coming out of retirement and they cant believe the prices compared to the days of nicads and brushed motors!

If you want to change the rules you need to get the membership to change them from within.

[mattr]

TBH, with such a limited pool of actual lipo manufacturers, as opposed to "lipo labellers", I'd not be in the slightest bit surprised if the actual nasty bit of the battery isn't already approved under half a dozen or more other names already.

[andys]

TBH, with such a limited pool of actual lipo manufacturers, as opposed to "lipo labellers", I'd not be in the slightest bit surprised if the actual nasty bit of the battery isn't already approved under half a dozen or more other names already.

Agreed.
When lipos first were introduced many companies just slapped a sticker on Intellect packs and doubled the price....

Maybe the thing to do is knock up some 'Reedy' or similar stickers and pop them on our Turnigy cells - it's just what various companies did to us - but in reverse :)

[Mike Haswell]

No reason nanotech shouldn't be on that list. I see far more of these than any other battery around here.
But after a few years of them already being widely used I suspect there is more to it than meets the eye...

Unlike the US distributor, the UK distributor has chosen not to submit any batteries for approval -Nothing more than that!

If you want them on the list, go badger the distributor as they are the ones not doing their job. But it is too late for this year's 2S list.

[mark christopher]

No reason nanotech shouldn't be on that list. I see far more of these than any other battery around here.
But after a few years of them already being widely used I suspect there is more to it than meets the eye...

Unlike the US distributor, the UK distributor has chosen not to submit any batteries for approval -Nothing more than that!

If you want them on the list, go badger the distributor as they are the ones not doing their job. But it is too late for this year's 2S list.

they have been asked too by some people in the know and declined to put them forward.

[andy110m]

We'll need to get this sorted at the next AGM.

They have been approved by one of the three IFMAR Blocks, ROAR, and in my mind, a higher authority than the BRCA in global terms. So surely, if its good enough for them, its good enough for us.

[dwp102]

When is the next agm?

[Chrislong]

Has anybody asked Paul Worsley? This should be first step..

[Squidzilla]

Food for thought (I hope...)

As someone new to racing, and trying to set up and get going as quickly as possible, I have found the Turnigy LiPo's the obvious solution for my needs. As I look further into the year there are events I would like to attend (regionals etc) that are covered by the BRCA limitations.

To race in these events therefore I will need to adhere to the list of approved packs, however I am still yet to find a list of what is and isn't approved, now this could be a failure in my abilities to navigate the BRCA website (which I would fully accept) either way that would highlight an area that is difficult for new members to find.

Ideally the BRCA would hope to increase the amount of new members looking to get involved with racing competitively, it should be important to have a value manufacturer like Turnigy available to racers. I hope the manufacturer changes its mind and drives to have its packs approved.

[neallewis]

Just buy one approved pack and use of that in the bigger brca sanctioned meetings. There are cheap approved packs out there for those on a tight budget.

BRCA approval is more about liabilities than technical performance. hobbyking turnigy packs perform well technically but without a UK company ready to back their product up its a none starter, so don't hold your breath waiting for hobbyking to get approval on their packs. the UK racer market is small fry for them anyway. it won't help them sell any more serious volume anyway. they sell far more soft case flight packs that don't require the approval process that the brca stipulate.

[Big paul]

I to use Turnigy. the only thing is, If these lipo's get approved would the prise go up.

[grimidol]

I have struggled to find a cheap shorty lipo On the list. This are supposed to be ready avaliable.

[neallewis]

I have struggled to find a cheap shorty lipo On the list. This are supposed to be ready avaliable.

the lists:

http://www.brca.org/sites/www.brca.org/files/library_files/BRCAchairman/2014%20BRCA%202S%20Stick%20LiPo%20List%20%2811-14%29%20v1%20pdf2.pdf

http://www.brca.org/sites/www.brca.org/files/library_files/BRCAchairman/2014%20BRCA%202S%20Saddle%20LiPo%20List%20%2811-14%29%20v1%20pdf2.pdf

Gens ace saddles and sticks are cheap enough, but they haven't got their shorty on the list.

Intellect and HPI shorties are at the cheaper end, and I think the nvision is as well. Not turnigy cheap, but I have one approved shorty for big meetings, and a few turnigies for club racing, plus approved saddles.

[Chris56]

I to use Turnigy. the only thing is, If these lipo's get approved would the prise go up.

Hopefully not - so many people are using them anyway I can't see a huge surge in demand if they get approved.

[Chris56]

I have struggled to find a cheap shorty lipo On the list. This are supposed to be ready avaliable.

I've never had my LIPOs checked during a regional so the chances are that if you choose to run a "non-approved" lipo at a BRCA event, you'd probably get away with it.

You could also borrow a mate's BRCA LIPO for scrutineering and then stick in the Turnigy when nobody is looking;)

[Dr Fly]

I've never had my LIPOs checked during a regional so the chances are that if you choose to run a "non-approved" lipo at a BRCA event, you'd probably get away with it.

You could also borrow a mate's BRCA LIPO for scrutineering and then stick in the Turnigy when nobody is looking;)

Seriously, i am no supporter of the battery lists, but suggesting breaking the rules is not a clever thing to do. Think how you would feel if half a dozen racers followed your advice and were disqualified in an event. maybe you could even suggest they slip a third cell in as well :p.

Hopefully the rules will be relaxed in time, but until then there is no point trying to circumvent them as its only the racers that will lose out.

My own personal feeling is that if a battery is safe to sell in the UK, and is used as per the manufacturers guidelines, then there is no reason that the BRCA should ban then on "safety" grounds. As far as i am aware the Turnigy cells are sold legally in the uk, and are used within their safe charge and discharge ratings. If the BRCA really want to open up racing and introduce more blood, this needs to be addressed.

[grimidol]

Seriously, i am no supporter of the battery lists, but suggesting breaking the rules is not a clever thing to do. Think how you would feel if half a dozen racers followed your advice and were disqualified in an event. maybe you could even suggest they slip a third cell in as well :p.

Hopefully the rules will be relaxed in time, but until then there is no point trying to circumvent them as its only the racers that will lose out.

My own personal feeling is that if a battery is safe to sell in the UK, and is used as per the manufacturers guidelines, then there is no reason that the BRCA should ban then on "safety" grounds. As far as i am aware the Turnigy cells are sold legally in the uk, and are used within their safe charge and discharge ratings. If the BRCA really want to open up racing and introduce more blood, this needs to be addressed.
+1
I also have never been checked but if I was hitting the A final at regional then I bet I would be.

[DCM]

Deleted upon request.

[Mike Haswell]

We'll need to get this sorted at the next AGM.

They have been approved by one of the three IFMAR Blocks, ROAR, and in my mind, a higher authority than the BRCA in global terms. So surely, if its good enough for them, its good enough for us.

Roar a higher authority!! Now you are having a laugh....they have less members than the BRCA by some margin. IFMAR/EFRA/BRCA have identical rules, Roar doesn't!

[Mike Haswell]

Gentlemen, the lists are for the nationals, it is up to your regional committee whether you use the battery list.


The lists are for BRCA events which the Regionals are too.

[Chris56]

The lists are for BRCA events which the Regionals are too.

Thats true, Regionals are BRCA sanctioned which is why the BRCA rules have to be followed.

Just to be clear, my previous post wasn't an intended to be an open encouragement for all to break to rules, but simply highlighting the fact that scrutineering is more focused on weights, dimensions, tyres etc, and therefore running non-legal LIPOs is unlikely to be picked up on.

Nobody should actively break rules, but if you are a club racer who has never attended a regional before, it can be off-putting knowing that your equipment, that you may have spent a small fortune on, is not legal despite your local club not having an issue with them.

[SlowOne]

Can someone explain why the BRCA should change the rules that work just so a distributor can avoid paying the costs all the others pay?

Electric Board changes are proposed by your Section EB rep and taken to an EB meeting. Talk to your EB rep first.

[lovechild]

Can someone explain why the BRCA should change the rules that work just so a distributor can avoid paying the costs all the others pay?

Electric Board changes are proposed by your Section EB rep and taken to an EB meeting. Talk to your EB rep first.

what are the costs that the other distributors pay?

[mark christopher]

My own personal feeling is that if a battery is safe to sell in the UK, and is used as per the manufacturers guidelines, then there is no reason that the BRCA should ban then on "safety" grounds. As far as i am aware the Turnigy cells are sold legally in the uk, and are used within their safe charge and discharge ratings. If the BRCA really want to open up racing and introduce more blood, this needs to be addressed.

Er the BRCA do not ban anything. The BRCA apply rules as voted for by the racers, is you.. If you sit at home on the last Sunday in every October then blame yourself!!
All hard case lipos can be used in all BRCA clubs and the BRCA insurance covers you. That's laid down in general rules.
The sections we race in may choose to use the EB list of approved batteries for that section, again voted for by the racers, there is no legislation that sections have to use the EB list. If the voters vote not to use the EB list, they do not have to.

[mark christopher]

what are the costs that the other distributors pay?

Top of my head £40 for each cell submitted and the loss of each cell submitted.

to be 100% the figure is in the application form on the BRCA EB site

[DCM]

Er the BRCA do not ban anything. The BRCA apply rules as voted for by the racers, is you.. If you sit at home on the last Sunday in every October then blame yourself!!
All hard case lipos can be used in all BRCA clubs and the BRCA insurance covers you. That's laid down in general rules.


Mark, are you sure about that statement?

[mark christopher]

Mark, are you sure about that statement?

Any specific bit ?

[andy110m]

From what I understand its £40 per submission and multiple batteries can be in one submission.

So in effect the BRCA is losing out on the £40.

I agree its down to the members getting to the AGM and pushing through the change. The really good point made earlier about encouraging new blood to progress is well made. If a lad and dad team consider regionals but see their gear isn't approved they're only likely to race at club level.

Mike's point about the BRCA having more members is also a good one but the BRCA feed into EFRA, an IFMAR block, ROAR is EFRA's equivalent again being one of the IFMAR blocks so its on that basis I consider them a higher authority.

Can I check something someone posted earlier. Can the off road section vote to not be governed by the EB list completely? If so what would happen in that case, just a rule saying 2S hard case lipos?

[wookieewonder]

Don't forget the motor list too! :lol:

[DCM]

Er the BRCA do not ban anything. The BRCA apply rules as voted for by the racers, is you.. If you sit at home on the last Sunday in every October then blame yourself!!
All hard case lipos can be used in all BRCA clubs and the BRCA insurance covers you. That's laid down in general rules.
The sections we race in may choose to use the EB list of approved batteries for that section, again voted for by the racers, there is no legislation that sections have to use the EB list. If the voters vote not to use the EB list, they do not have to.

Sorry, the intimation that brca insuranfe covers you if you use homologated batteries and motors.

[mark christopher]

When is the next agm?

Last Sunday in October has been for years

[mark christopher]

Can I check something someone posted earlier. Can the off road section vote to not be governed by the EB list completely? If so what would happen in that case, just a rule saying 2S hard case lipos?

Yes no section is forced to use the EB list, its decided by the section, and if a proposal manages to make it to the agm,and is voted in favour of your rule, thats it. No EB list rule for that section.

[mark christopher]

Sorry, the intimation that brca insuranfe covers you if you use homologated batteries and motors.

??? Is that insurance?
I said. "All hard case lipos can be used in all BRCA clubs and the BRCA insurance covers you" which means weather you use lipo of the EB list or not on the EB list it does not invalidate your BRCA liability insurance. The clubs can if they wish to stipulate the use off only BRCA EB list lipo. Its only when your classed as the importer for the cells the insurance company may fall back on you and you become responsibe for the non uk/eu suported pack
As I said read the general rules and Jim's bit on insurance.

[Mike Haswell]

And if it was a faulty lipo then that brings us back to Product Liability and you can be certain the insurance company will be looking to collect....! Wouldn't want to be in your shoes when they find out it was one you imported yourself.

[terry.sc]

Sorry, the intimation that brca insurance covers you if you use homologated batteries and motors.It's in the BRCA Handbook, in the General Rules. The BRCA, and therefore the insurance, defines an r/c car as no more than 1m long, no more than 20kg in weight and no more than 30cc engine capacity. There is no restriction on power source, voltage, motor size.

If the section even votes to allow cheap soft packs or to run on 100volts then the insurance will still cover you.

[terry.sc]

Mike's point about the BRCA having more members is also a good one but the BRCA feed into EFRA, an IFMAR block, ROAR is EFRA's equivalent again being one of the IFMAR blocks so its on that basis I consider them a higher authority.Then can we presume you also rate FEMCA and FAMAR higher authorities than the BRCA as well?

The BRCA is responsible for the majority of rules we race all the way up to international level, most of the rules were created by the BRCA and then adopted by EFRA and IFMAR.
ROAR is unique in going their own way with their own rules, for example to be ROAR legal all buggies must be able to run a full size pack, which is why a lot of US drivers were surprised at the worlds to see buggies the rest of the world uses that will only fit a shorty pack.
BRCA rules also all have to be ratified by the members by voting at the AGM. ROAR rules are discussed and created by their committee, the ordinary members have no say in the rules.

There's also the problem of allowing use of a ROAR legal battery that is only available in the USA, or a FEMCA legal battery that is only available in Japan. If it's not bought in the UK you personally are liable as the importer if anything goes wrong, for example say the lipo catches fire due to a fault or battery damage. If your garage burns down because a faulty battery was in there, your insurance company will pay out then pursue the importer to claim on their liability insurance to get their money back - in this case they would then either go after you for their insurance payout, or refuse to pay your claim.




Can I check something someone posted earlier. Can the off road section vote to not be governed by the EB list completely? If so what would happen in that case, just a rule saying 2S hard case lipos?If the off road section voted to not use the EB lists at all, then the section can do whatever it wants like several other sections already do. Although if the rules to use the EB lists are removed completely someone had better consider adding definitions for batteries allowed as the only other rule is that the battery has a maximum voltage of 7.4v otherwise you could use any battery chemistry of any size and shape as long as the battery has no more than 7.4v, and everyone could use oversize 12000mah packs instead.

The correct way to do it would be to remove rule
25.3 Cells and batteries can only be used if they are included on the BRCA (EB) homologation list at the time of the eventwhile keeping the rule
25.2 The description, specification and types of rechargeable batteries approved for use in Off-Road Sanctioned events can be found in the section entitled "BRCA Electric Board"so all batteries used are limited to the same size and type we currently use, but without homologation.

[Adam F]

Reading the above, it sounds like some think the list is part of a conspiracy to make us buy more expensive lipos!!

It's there for our safety is it not? Whilst I agree that some cheaper brands are fine, there will always be the odd rogue supplier that may be selling something potentially dangerous..

When a problem arises with one of these I would want more comeback than some bloke that has imported them, basically a company to go after to get some pennies...

[Chris56]

The point regarding the "importer" is an interesting read.

Where does Hobbyking stand with all of this? They now have a UK warehouse which can supply Turnigy and Zippy LIPOs. Both brands are highly regarded and are widely used. Lets say that one of those goes pop but it was purchased through Hobbyking UK, where would the liability stand?

[andy110m]

Terry, your suggestion on the rules looks spot on to me.

Why might it struggle to get to a vote. If a person proposes it and someone else seconds it, surely it gets to the AGM for a vote?

Or is there some procedure I'm missing?

[LongRat]

I don't think the list is for safety reasons. That would imply that anything not on the list is unsafe - if that was the case they shouldn't be on sale at all.
The list is for the fairness of competition, rightly or wrongly. My interpretation is that if a battery is on the list, it is commercially available in the UK and as such any competitor has an equal chance of using it, and winning races. It rules out military spec batteries with higher energy densities that are not available to the general public, for example.

The question that I think needs to be answered is, must the importer be the person to submit a battery for homologation? As a private individual why can't anyone buy some batteries from a UK importer and ship them to the BRCA for homologation? They simply absorb the homologation cost from the importer, who may be completely disinterested in bothing with BRCA homologation.

[DCM]

Currently, batteries give out far more power than we can use, so mil spec batteries won't help you, now, mil spec electronics that significantly increase efficiency is a different matter.

[LongRat]

If that was true, why do people pay so much for '100C' batteries and more?
Especially as motor winds are restricted in most race classes, this simply isn't the case in my opinion. If there was a super low IR cell available that some individuals could buy but others could not, there is no question those lucky few would be at an advatage. The other guys are not allowed to drop a couple of turns on the motor to stay with them, are they? This is the reason for the homologated list in my opinion.

[Chris56]

This topic has been debated before. Personally I think the EB list for LIPOs was initially drawn up with safety in mind, as there was great uncertainty as to have safe LIPOs were. Now that we have all been using LIPOs for quite some a few years, its now time to re-evaluate.

There are now several cheaper brands on the market now that, although not tested through the BRCA process, have been proven safe through useage at club level. For me, the only requirement should be that they are hard-cased (and possibly purchased through a UK distributor).

If I am correct (which I might not been since I have never attended the BRCA AGM!!) the reason the rules havn't changed is because nobody has made a proposal at the AGM for the rules to be changed. This debate will continue and repeat several times on Oople, but the EB rules will only change if somebody takes it to the AGM as a formal proposal.

Just my rambings - don't shoot!

[Adam F]

I don't think the list is for safety reasons. That would imply that anything not on the list is unsafe

Not quite, It would only imply that batteries not on the list were untested .

[DCM]

If that was true, why do people pay so much for '100C' batteries and more?
Especially as motor winds are restricted in most race classes, this simply isn't the case in my opinion. If there was a super low IR cell available that some individuals could buy but others could not, there is no question those lucky few would be at an advatage. The other guys are not allowed to drop a couple of turns on the motor to stay with them, are they? This is the reason for the homologated list in my opinion.

Simply not the case, if you look at the power rating of a motor and a lipo, most, if not all proper race packs have a much greater rms and pmpo power rating than any bwr maybe the really haìry chested mod motors, this ìs why you are now seeing more 4wd cars being designed around the shorty lipo. If you could theoretically have an esc with no resistance all you would end up doing is roasting motors.

As for the homologation process, it would be interesting to know what they do in respect to cell testing, is it just physical dimensions and voltage?

[SlowOne]

The EB list is populated by cells that have been submitted by importers and distributors. This ensures that you can buy the product from an EU source with a product liability in place. We have already had one instance where a driver personally importing a cell and having an incident with it is left holding the baby.

Cells are measured in accordance with the rules as written, and checks are also made on construction as I understand it to ensure that, for example, the case won't split apart when you look at it!

Yes, you can run to any rules a Section agrees to as regards the EB requirements. Over the years 12th have variously run to rules like allowing any rotor (when rotors were restricted by the EB list) and allowing any hard-case cell under £25 before the 'sport' list came in.

Instead of banging on endlessly about it on here, why doesn't someone say they will put forward a proposal at your Section AGM. All the information you need is on the BRCA site under the EB 'Section'. Terry.SC's proposal looks like the right course of action - JFDI?!!!

[LongRat]

Simply not the case, if you look at the power rating of a motor and a lipo, most, if not all proper race packs have a much greater rms and pmpo power rating than any bwr maybe the really haìry chested mod motors, this ìs why you are now seeing more 4wd cars being designed around the shorty lipo. If you could theoretically have an esc with no resistance all you would end up doing is roasting motors.

The fact that the same car can run at measurably different speeds with 2 different, approved and fully charged packs is evidence that this is not the full story. Yes, any decent pack will likely be rated to deliver more power than is required, that doesn't mean it will do so under the motor restrictions in place. Connect up a pack with a lower IR, change nothing else and the circuit will draw more current - you will get a higher performance out. Shorty packs are being used in many cars because the positioning freedom and weight advantage far outweigh any electrical performance detriment. Doesn't mean there isn't a difference though.

[mark christopher]

I don't think the list is for safety reasons. That would imply that anything not on the list is unsafe

The question that I think needs to be answered is, must the importer be the person to submit a battery for homologation? As a private individual why can't anyone buy some batteries from a UK importer and ship them to the BRCA for homologation? They simply absorb the homologation cost from the importer, who may be completely disinterested in bothing with BRCA homologation.

Nope it means they are not tested, so an unknown....

If you take a little time to read the documentation on the EB site, you will find a list of things the submitter needs to submit along with the lipo. As far as I'm aware you don't get that when you buy the lipo from any store.

[Jim Spencer]

Hi

I've been aimed at this thread - but think most of you have your head round why cells are homolgated - it basically makes sure that you're all using products where You can be assured the correct paperwork for the importation of that item has been done - and if something goes pear shaped you don't end up carrying the can.

Makes we wonder why the UK importers of other cells don't send them in for the trival (it covers the admin) cost?



I think a headlong rush to adjust a sections rules to remove that bit of knowledge from the organisers would, certainly for me, make me happy to race (as i'd not touch a non-homologted cell with somebody else's stick).
But there's no way what-so-ever i'd organise the event..

Make sure your existing (or new) meeting organisers are happy before voting that one through..

[DCM]

Hi Jim, out of curiosity, apart from the audit trail of paperwork and certification, what else is done when a battery is sent in for homologation?

[mark christopher]

Hi Jim, out of curiosity, apart from the audit trail of paperwork and certification, what else is done when a battery is sent in for homologation?

I'm sure if you email Paul Worsley or Russ Giles, they will let you know.

[DCM]

Because I would rather them make that information public than just tell me Mark.

[terry.sc]

The point regarding the "importer" is an interesting read.

Where does Hobbyking stand with all of this? They now have a UK warehouse which can supply Turnigy and Zippy LIPOs. Both brands are highly regarded and are widely used. Lets say that one of those goes pop but it was purchased through Hobbyking UK, where would the liability stand?
Well there is an interesting situation. I believe if you purchase from the UK Warehouse you are still buying and paying for the goods with Hong Kong, the only difference is that the products are sent on to you from Lucky Stuff Ltd in Ipswich who just receive the goods into the UK and forward the goods from Hobbyking in Hong Kong to you. You don't actually deal direct with a UK company.

[terry.sc]

The question that I think needs to be answered is, must the importer be the person to submit a battery for homologation? As a private individual why can't anyone buy some batteries from a UK importer and ship them to the BRCA for homologation? They simply absorb the homologation cost from the importer, who may be completely disinterested in bothing with BRCA homologation.All the information is readily available on the BRCA website.
http://www.brca.org/content/battery-homologation-procedure/1399

Technically anyone could send batteries to the BRCA for homologation, but you would also have to send in:
• A safety test certification in accordance with:-
UN Manual of Test and Criteria ST/SG/AC.10/11/Rev.5, Part 3, Sub-Section 38.3, Tests T1 to T8.
• A data sheet giving:- recommended charging safety criteria and maximum charging amps and voltage. This sheet must also include safe disposal procedures.
• A technical data sheet for each Battery Part #, giving specifications of :- sizes and weight with tolerances.
• Details of :-case material, nominal thickness of case and sealing method (eg. Cyno, Sonic Weld etc.)
• Name and contact details of the nominated distributor in the UK.
• Confirmation that the battery submitted:-
If a new production version, that it will be widely available within UK before: 2S - 01.03.14, 1S – see above.
If already in production, approx. number that have already been supplied to UK.
• A declaration stating that the submitted battery is not in any violation of existing World Wide patents. This information to be supplied by an authorised representative of the manufacturer and also applies to any OEM supplier versions. If you can meet those requirements then you can submit a battery, it's not just a case of paying £40 to get it on the list.

[terry.sc]

Currently, batteries give out far more power than we can use, so mil spec batteries won't help you, now, mil spec electronics that significantly increase efficiency is a different matter.
You are looking at from a narrow minded off road only view.

The reason drivers in other classes will buy the highest capacity cells is to keep as high an average voltage over the length of a race, for the most speed from the spec motor that just about every on road electric class runs. By using the EB list it ensures
1. That all batteries are available to buy in the UK.
2. That the batteries allowed are fixed for the year, so there's no battery of the month as new higher capacity cells come out.
This why all the other sections that use the EB lists consider them a good thing.

As off road is open regarding motors then voltage isn't a problem, and no one is trying to get down to the minimum weight in their buggies, off road is unique in electric classes by battery choice not being that important. If off road created a class with a fixed motor wind, with no battery restriction it would come down to battery performance to get the most speed possible with drivers buying higher and higher capacity packs to get that little extra speed out of the motor. Just like the old days of nimh when everyone chose to race with Intellects, even though they were unreliable junk that regularly failed or even exploded, but just because they kept a very slightly higher average voltage than other cells.

[terry.sc]

Because I would rather them make that information public than just tell me Mark.Marks point is that Jim is no more involved with the testing than you or I. By going direct to Paul or Russ all your questions can be answered, instead of going through Jim.

If you contact the people who actually do the testing you will find out exactly what the procedure is, and if you want to make it public you can ask Paul Worsley if he would be happy for you to post it online.

[andys]

Correct me if i'm wrong but in the chats i've had with fellow racers / model shops etc - I am led to believe that there are 2 main suppliers of Lipo cells that we use in off road - regardless of who put's a sticker on them / sells them in the UK.

This (i'm told) is why some cells have the terminals on saddles the other way around. So far i've found that Turnigy and my older Trackpowers have connectors on the opposite side to my Intellect and HB packs.

If this is indeed the case - that everything we use comes from either China Factory A or China Factory B then in my opinion, if a lipo set originates from an already approved supplier, then it's as good / safe / etc as any other?

Re the figures / capacity / power argument - doesn't hold any water for me as i've tried all sorts of lipo's and can't see / feel / measure the difference on track. To that end I buy cheaper lipo's now as I see no point buying the highest C rating etc.

[mark christopher]

Correct me if i'm wrong but in the chats i've had with fellow racers / model shops etc - I am led to believe that there are 2 main suppliers of Lipo cells that we use in off road - regardless of who put's a sticker on them / sells them in the UK.

This (i'm told) is why some cells have the terminals on saddles the other way around. So far i've found that Turnigy and my older Trackpowers have connectors on the opposite side to my Intellect and HB packs.

If this is indeed the case - that everything we use comes from either China Factory A or China Factory B then in my opinion, if a lipo set originates from an already approved supplier, then it's as good / safe / etc as any other?

Re the figures / capacity / power argument - doesn't hold any water for me as i've tried all sorts of lipo's and can't see / feel / measure the difference on track. To that end I buy cheaper lipo's now as I see no point buying the highest C rating etc.

Hmmm some of mine have hollow tubes, so do lrp/nosram, so in your suggestion, which factory do they come from?

If there are two factories, then for example, if they have quality control and matching, could it be the substandard cells ( by the manufactures tolerance) are sold to cheaper outlets that don't want them on the list?

[andy110m]

Mark, I think you missed Andy's point slightly.

Andy is suggesting all the technology, or lets call it the nasty bit of the cell is made in factory A or B.

The brands who operate in our market ask these factories to package the nasty bit in a hard case to which ever particular brand design, so some do have hollow tubes and have blue plastic, others have black plastic but the point being the nasty bit has still come from factory A or factory B. So the produce from either factory is already on the list inside many different plastic boxes and stickers.

So taking that on a step, all we're really doing is approving the plastic case.:D

[andy110m]

Just looking again at the in depth data required for approval, I'd suggest its likely to come from the manufacture rather than the brand, even if they change the letterhead.

It'd be interesting to compare the submissions for similarity's. Maybe we could identify which factory supplied which brand?

I don't know I'm just guessing from my own experience in the MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) industry. Lots of rebranding but data sheet info nearly always comes from the source.

[s22jgs]

i havent read through the whole thread, but my comments regarding the nano techs would be they are a great performing battery - not as good as my thunder powers or HPI Plazma's but more than enough for club racing. However, i have found the casing to be of pretty poor standard, and all but one i have owned have cracked during crashes or impacts in one way or another.

I don't necessarily think this deems them dangerous. All i have done is tape them up with electrical tape. I simply wouldn't use them again if i thought they were dangerous, and i am very selective in what car they are now used based on protection etc.

However, i can see how the quality and thickness of the casing could be a reason for them not being approved.

[andys]

Mark, I think you missed Andy's point slightly.

Andy is suggesting all the technology, or lets call it the nasty bit of the cell is made in factory A or B.

The brands who operate in our market ask these factories to package the nasty bit in a hard case to which ever particular brand design, so some do have hollow tubes and have blue plastic, others have black plastic but the point being the nasty bit has still come from factory A or factory B. So the produce from either factory is already on the list inside many different plastic boxes and stickers.

So taking that on a step, all we're really doing is approving the plastic case.:D

Spot on:)

[Neil Skull]

Many products come from same factorys it true but the spec they are built to for every supplier can be fully different.
To meet correct certification certain rules have to be followed and materials and only approved factorys to be used. getting the cells approved is costly for EU import rules, but gives you the best assurance the products are made to strict spec and safety regulations.
Its the same for electronics and other manufacturing from overseas.
There are batteries and electronics on the market from overseas that are just dangerous and don't pass regulations.
You pay your money and take your chances.

[Jim Spencer]

Spot on:)

Or it would be if the initial statement you were confirming the interpretation of was correct:D

While it's true that there are a considerable number of 'labelled' cells there are quite a few manufacturers of the 'nasty bit' too now-a-days, well into double figures I'm lead to believe

Plus of course the quality of the case is a key point.


The checks done are to confirm that the cell in question meets the dimensional rules - but most importantly is accurate to the paperwork submitted with it and it wouldn't be the first time if one wasn't.


However the fix - if any of you have bought, or are thinking of buying these should be simple:-

Write to the supplier and give them a good kicking for not submitting them, if they still don't do it then, for the sake of £40, there must be a question mark over why not IMHO
None of that paperwork is onerous, they should have it all in place simply to sell the product here.


Or to put it simply:-

Ask the question of the people doing this wrong, not the ones doing it right..

[fidspeed]

just my two penny worth

I see both sides of the story here and each has its merits

Jim
I wholeheartedly agree with what the BRCA is doing and the list ,
can I ask a question are batteries that are submitted, destructively tested ? sure dimensionally they may match submitted paperwork, but without disassembly how do you know whats inside . If they are dismantled my view has no back up

I too have turnigy cells that I run at at club level and had no issues so far .this of course does not guarantee further failure .On the flip side I have had "quality" branded batteries off the approved list that have failed or ,swelled prematuerely (no misuse either)

regards Dave fid

[mattr]

there are quite a few manufacturers of the 'nasty bit' too now-a-days, well into double figures I'm lead to believein 2012 there were 8 or 9. Plus a dozen or so "manufacturers", who were just acting as middle men for the 8 or 9.

We had a hell of a job getting quotes from 3 different manufacturers, kept seeing the same quotes from the same office with the same drawings and terms with different headers..........

[DCM]

All this yet when we had NiHM batteries from major manufacturers, there would be special, or better than average batches, random failures etc. This scare mongering about lipos is just old and boring.

[mark christopher]

Many products come from same factorys it true but the spec they are built to for every supplier can be fully different.
To meet correct certification certain rules have to be followed and materials and only approved factorys to be used. getting the cells approved is costly for EU import rules, but gives you the best assurance the products are made to strict spec and safety regulations.
Its the same for electronics and other manufacturing from overseas.
There are batteries and electronics on the market from overseas that are just dangerous and don't pass regulations.
You pay your money and take your chances.

agreed those factories have different specs, high quality, lower quality, rejects that don't meet the specs for the above, sold on to lower level packs

[mark christopher]

All this yet when we had NiHM batteries from major manufacturers, there would be special, or better than average batches, random failures etc. This scare mongering about lipos is just old and boring.

And was there a brca list for Nimh?

[DCM]

Yeap, didn't make them any safer or better, it did what it was meant to, that if you were racing at BRCA sanctioned events, if a newer, higher capacity higher average voltage came out, it wouldn't be legal, it made no concession to 'how safe' a cell was.

This thread is definitely suffering from a 'jump on a statement syndrome'....

From reading what Jim has stated, I am GUESSING that only dimensional and weights are checked on a physical battery to give a bench point for checking at a race meeting. If a cell is officially imported into Europe/UK then it must of past the tests that he mentioned. In that respect, all officially imported batteries would of gone through the same rigorous testing surely?

[andys]

I simply hope that somewhere along the way this will be resolved to the satisfaction of the average club racer.

I don't mind paying for my RC 'quality' items - but it's a step too far when some companies think charging £70 or £80 or more for a lipo is ok - when potentially the same thing is available for around £20?

I would love to know for sure if this is indeed the case - or do HPI / Thunder Power / Volts / Vampire etc make their own Lipos.....

[mark christopher]

Yeap, didn't make them any safer or better, it did what it was meant to, that if you were racing at BRCA sanctioned events, if a newer, higher capacity higher average voltage came out, it wouldn't be legal, it made no concession to 'how safe' a cell was.

This thread is definitely suffering from a 'jump on a statement syndrome'....

From reading what Jim has stated, I am GUESSING that only dimensional and weights are checked on a physical battery to give a bench point for checking at a race meeting. If a cell is officially imported into Europe/UK then it must of past the tests that he mentioned. In that respect, all officially imported batteries would of gone through the same rigorous testing surely?


Why not ask the correct people and know for sure? having been involved in getting some lipo approved, 1/ its not as simple as you think 2/ there is more than you are guessing