Attention TC Drivers - Touring Car Classes

[manpossessed]

Over the last few months there has been a great deal of debate over the advantages and disadvantages of TRCCC's open class. Several suggestions have been put forward as to the best way to go in 2014 and beyond.

As a club it is important that all members get a chance to have their say and to make suggestions and voice opinions to ensure all sides are considered when any decisions are made.It may well be we will arrange a meeting of TC drivers if there is a need for it.

Can I ask you to consider such factors as scutineering, timing, cost, when the changes should be implemented (2014/2015?) and heat number increases in relation to your ideas as early solutions to these problems will make implementation of ideas easier and faster.

Post your thoughts here or contact me at manpossessed@sky.com - I may post your suggestions anonymously to promote debate unless you tell me otherwise.

Many thanks

Gary Simmons
TRCCC Club Secretary

[manpossessed]

To clarify our classes at the moment we run two classes, Junior and Senior.

Junior class has no restriction on car or motor.

Senior is a touring car class conforming to a 190-200mm touring car format with option for 4wd or 2wd and no limitations on motor or speedo.

Neither class has age restrictions or entry criteria based on performance but it is generally viewed that Junior is the U13/beginners class and Senior is for those racers wishing to compete a little more seriously.

[Terry1965]

In 2012 we had 18 drivers attend but only 6 went on to come back in 2013.

In 2013 we had 18 drivers attend but only 4 completed enough rounds for the championship and 8 did 3 meetings or less.

We seem to have a problem keeping the drivers that visit us in TC and I think we need to find out why. Can anyone shed any light on this?
What do you think would make things better and encourage more racers to stay in TC?

Although in many ways I like the open rules we have I feel we do need a little more structure to our on road racing. Mendip are out recruiting TC drivers and although they race on opposite weekend to us most drivers will have to choose a club as most are not able to race every weekend. They have picked 13.5 boosted as their class but we are basically classless.

From the few drivers I have spoken to about joining us this is an issue as its leaving them confused as to what to buy. New guys don’t want to spend lots to have any chance of competing so are looking for an affordable class where they feel they can do more than just make up the numbers. On the opposite end of the scale I know we have had some very fast drivers in the past visit us and not feel they have had much competition. This is not so true now as the bar has been raised this year but we do need to encourage them back.

I personally would like 2 classes that are as wide open as possible to allow any TC to race but separate them in such a way as to give a fighting chance to anyone taking part. I propose we have an 'Open Modified Class' for any of the 540 brushless powered cars and a 'Standard Class' to include brushed motors and cheap Chinese 380 type motors that are popular.

Whatever we chose to do I think we must have a mid class to fit between out juniors and our open class. Somewhere for the juniors to move on to and still have a chance to compete in the championship and not just make up the numbers. It would also give the adults that either cant or dont want to invest in a top car or dont have the ability to fight at the top to win in a class that is right for them.

Feel free to tell me Im talking B******* but please do post your thoughts as time is running out and I want to see people enjoy their TC racing :)


Terry

[gavsspringer]

i like the way we do things now. Yes when i started i had a very old slow car and it was daunting being in the same race as the fast drivers but it was a challenge to me to improve my driving (still trying this :D) and to upgrade my car on a budget which i have done so well that my car is now alot quicker than my fingers and thumbs. I don't think we need to create a separate class but i do think that we need to set a sensible top limit for the number of cars on track so we aren't tripping over each other. Looking forward to April. Can't wait to get back to racing.

[alan p]

Having raced at Tiverton many times over the last four years first brushed 19t then 10.5 brushless and finally 13.5 boosted I don't feel that running with 13.5 would be a disadvantage as your track favors a well set up chassis rather than a car with massive power, in fact with the mix of fast and slow corners modified brushless could be a disadvantage and would be more confusing to people racing for the first time, I would suggest two classes but stick to the 17.5 blinkey/27t brushed and 13.5 boosted type of classes run by most other clubs then it will be easier for people from these clubs to try racing at your challenging and tricky track.

[manpossessed]

Thanks for your comments so far.

Couple of thoughts that have come my way by email.

- Match Mendip in running a 13.5 turn boosted class.

- Concern over numbers to support two classes.

- We would need a minimum of 6 racers per class to justify an extra heat.

- How would we control scrutineering?

- Do we need another class? Isn't our problem a mix of different speeds in one heat?

These are all points for debate so feel free to add you thoughts or opinions.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, all contributions have been objective and positive.

[manpossessed]

My thoughts;

Terry is right our lack of class regulations does make racing seem confusing to outsiders.

Gavin is right that applying a set of regulations also means those drivers who have existing cars can't run.

Alan is right that power does not mean performance on our track.

Prehaps we we should think about next year rather than this year with a view to adopting the 13.5 boosted as a club class for 2015 but running alongside that an 'Outlaw' class for those cramming the largest gear possible into a little chassis (even those who have to hack bits out the chassis to get them in, eh Gav!)

This would work as we know that these cars can run similar pace due to the technicalities of our track and we could split them out into heats if there are enough racers present or run together if not.

Scutineering could be on a random basis by picking two cars from each heat to be checked and the open software means just the motor needs to be verified.

Would this work for everyone?:confused:

[Terry1965]

I suppose the first question to ask first is what classes do the clubs closest to us run?

Gavin's worry about outlawing current cars was why I suggested a brushless 540 class and a lower spec class. How many drivers of 540 brushless motor cars would be happy to get a 13.5 motor and run the same as Mendip? this would be the limit so any motors with higher turns would still qualify. Good second hand 13.5 motors seem to go for about £40. This must NOT push anyone out though so it would need 100% agreement!

Yes Alan is right that power is not king at our track but it is a way to split the TC cars to give a chance to the less competitive set ups to win a trophy with similar ability drivers and cars.

I dont think we need an extra heat as such but could run A and B as we did last year as long as the results can be split out. Can they?

Im not sure 17.5 blinky or whatever would work for us for 2 reasons. First its not a cheap set up to buy and second it would outlaw a lot of the current cars. Unless of course we continue with our open/modified class but that forces slow cars into the fast group. If 6 drivers or so want to run 17.5 blinky then of course its the way to go but we need to know now.

We really need to hear from ALL the drivers that intend to race this year to see what they want to race. Maybe everyone could post what spec they want to run so we can see potentially what we have?

I am happy to run 13.5 boosted or unrestricted.
Ben will run whatever less fast class we decide on.


Terry

[jimmyturnbuckle]

I would suggest the following as it all sits in with the BRCA.

13.5t boosted.

17.5t blinky.

21.5t for Juniors.

Rather than have it come swooping in and affecting those on a budget maybe it could be phased in over next season to soften the blow on existing members.

I feel that what ever we do isn't going to please everyone, however, a lack of structure could be the reason new members are staying away.

[gavsspringer]

i still dont understand why we need this. if only a few drivers turn up we will all be in the same race, if more drivers turn up we can then be split as we did last year. why do we need to complicate things with more classes? at the moment it seems simple to me that people know if they own a touring car they can come to tiverton and race it.
i have just looked at the 2wd buggy results from last year and they had nearly 100 drivers over the year and only 3 trophies available as far as i know. are they running lots of classes or restricting what people can use?

[Terry1965]

Gav, you may be right and maybe we can just leave it open but we need to discuss it first as I have had a negative response on 2 separate occasions now when I told potential members we had no rules as such and they could run whatever they like. They were asking what motor and batteries they needed to be competitive but at best my answer was a bit woolly. In the past I have thought that the track was the limiting factor as my humble HPI was up there with all but the very best but since pushing a bit harder at the end of last year I can see my car was at its limit so have had to get a better car this year. Both these enquires were from young lads that wanted to race TC and not the mix up in the junior class but they did not have the budget as far as I could tell to build the car they thought they needed to compete in our anything goes class.

So yes I agree with you that the modified class with have now is fine but I do think we need a second class to run within the heats we have now to appeal to new members.


Jimmy, I understand your idea and on the face of it, it makes sense but I think making it too rigid will be as much of a problem as no rules. The great thing at the moment is the fact its possible to run any TC and we dont want to loose that.

If we dont do anything then we will just have to hope the numbers stay up or we will all end up back in one heat again and I know none of us want that.

Gary, have Kam and his dad or Rick been invited on?

Oh Gav, there was a big table full of trophy's given out at the AGM!


Terry

[jimmyturnbuckle]

The three classes I mentioned need not be set in stone. Just have a bit more structure.

For example.

13.5t boosted or lower turn non boosted.

17.5t blinky or equivalent brushed motors. Including more turns brushless blinky.

21t blinky Juniors or equivalent brushed motors. Including more turns brushless blinky.

This would allow ready to runs to compete as well. These would be the upper limits so higher turn motors would also be able to compete. Not being to stringent but still being within the scope of the BRCA. The BRCA say themselve that you can alter and play with these classes to suit the clubs needs. Just use them as a starting point that wont effect any current racers. Unless of course they choose to. :)

[Team 36]

I have watched a lot off the tc races last year it seem to me it works it good when you have two groups it make try harder to get the 'a' final why fix something what is not broken why don't you leave for this year and try it in 2015 get the drivers together throw the year and go from there!!

[manpossessed]

Looks like we have a lot of good ideas and opinions on the direction touring cars should take.

I feel making an instant decision now might be difficult but prehaps continuing to discuss these issues with a view to setting class regs for 2015 is the way to go.

Feel free to discuss this further here or contact me if you wish to.

Many thanks

Gary

[Robocop]

Why not set it at 13.5 this is the most popular class outdoors at the present and the other clubs down.here have mendip and cotswolds,also they have the btcc and the brca nationals also so it does mean that drivers who fancy a go in either would be good to go.
Also 13.5 is plenty fast enough for tivvy in a tc.But why not have tc rounds at tivvy and mendip as a series not clashing with btcc or nats would be nice.

[Tedje van Es]

It might sound blunt but i think that anything that affects this years rules should have been made at the last AGM.
To get things straight though. Is all the talk about proper 540 size 13.5? How would these motors compare to the Ezrun range? When looking what to buy last year i found the Ezrun range to be better price wise, but i guess turn for turn these motors are probably slower then the 540 size equivalent.
And as is proven the Ezrun range can be racewinners. There is more to it then just the motorsize.
Discuss please

[gavsspringer]

I think most of us with an opinion have voiced it so if we are going to change the rules this year can we have a decision made quickly please so those of us affected by any changes can prepare.
Thanks.

[danharding]

It's got nothing to with power or price, it's to get all the cars running to the same spec (BRCA spec) the idea of using a nationally recognised class is so others can join in on a level playing field, no guess work involved.

[Mowen208fly]

It's got nothing to with power or price, it's to get all the cars running to the same spec (BRCA spec) the idea of using a nationally recognised class is so others can join in on a level playing field, no guess work involved.

Dan has hit the nail on the head!

[steveuk]

Maybe you should stick with what you've got for this year, but any new comers, or existing runners be made aware that running 13.5t is on the horizon. That way newcomers can decide to buy a 13.5t and any existing runners who need to replace dead motors do so with a 13.5t.

Having seen the boosted 13.5t's go round Mendip they will be more than enough for the Tivvy track.

It also opens more options to the Tivvy drivers to drive at other tracks with no extra cost or hassle in changing motors.

Steve

[Tedje van Es]

Well it has to do with price as some drivers will have to buy new gear then to comply. And as several people said before tiverton is not a power circuit. I do not run my motor at full power as it too powerfull but have it restricted through my transmitter.

Anyway any changes for this year should have been brought up at last years AGM. As this hasnt weshould really be looking at 2015.
TvE

[jimmyturnbuckle]

Well it has to do with price as some drivers will have to buy new gear then to comply. And as several people said before tiverton is not a power circuit. I do not run my motor at full power as it too powerfull but have it restricted through my transmitter.

Anyway any changes for this year should have been brought up at last years AGM. As this hasnt weshould really be looking at 2015.
TvE
Yes it will be a cost to buy the new motor or speedo but a one off cost and then your sorted. As terry said it need not be that expensive if you hunt around for second hand. No confusion and everyone is happy.

Ultimately Dan is right, after all we are also members of the BRCA so surely we agree with the rules...Right? And by abiding by those rules you get the maximum benefit of being a member. :)

[Tedje van Es]

You mean the one off cost i had last year whn i upgraded my brushed motor to a brushless model?
We might all be brca members, but how many would be a member if it wasnt for the insurance? I would not be.
Anyway i am a club member and abide by their rules. And as nothing has changed at the AGM. Tve

[jimmyturnbuckle]

Yep' it's a little late now but something to chat about next season and have a vote at the next AGM. However, as already been said, we need to have some idea as to inform new members so that they don't find themselves in the same boat next year. :)

[gavsspringer]

is there any more news on this yet?

[Tedje van Es]

Doesnt look like it, so well be at the startline in april looking forward to it.
Tve

[manpossessed]

Having looked at all the comments and opinions expressed here the committee have discussed various possibilities.

The final decision for this year is to run two classes in senior touring cars during 2014 these will consist of the following:

Unlimited TC - No limit on motors

13.5 Boosted - 13.5 turn motors with boosted software allowed

For these heats to be run separately the standard requirement for a minimum of six cars per heat still applies and the touring car heats will still marshall themselves as per last year.
We shall monitor this over the season to see the impact it has on the touring car numbers.

Hopefully this clarifies the situation for everyone and allows all racers to prepare for the coming season.

Gary Simmons
Club Secretary
TRCCC

[Tedje van Es]

Gary

Why was this not discussed during the AGM. Tis would have been the correct time and place. Also you do not say if things like scrutineering are going to be done. Are the only motors allowed the ones that are on the BRCA approved motor list? What is going to be if under six drivers?
I'm not against the 13.5t class which i do think is going to be popular but im not happy with the way it has been decided. Tve

[manpossessed]

TvE

The addition of the 13.5 turn class was not suggested at the AGM.
The further debate prompted by several members showed that this was a subject that needed to be addressed prior to the start of the season as racers were asking for a decision, I believe even you were concerned that a decision would not be made before the start of the season - "we'll be at the startline in April looking forward to it."

I am sorry you are not happy with the way it was decided but when these decisions come before the committee they are debated and if there is no clear consensus they are put to a vote and this decision was no different.

To answer your questions as best I can at this point;

"You do not say if things like scrutineering are going to be done." - In the first instant I will take responsibility for any scrutineering that is required. I intend to carry this out by selecting cars at random - (should I decide to run in the 13.5 class I will allow anyone who wishes to access to my car for scutineering).

"Are the only motors allowed the ones that are on the BRCA approved motor list?" - No fixed decision was made on whether the BRCA motor rules will be enforced so at this point I would say that motors and speed controllers will not need to be on the BRCA list.

"What is going to be if under six drivers?" - The heats will be combined.

There will still be some issues to resolve as this is a new class and I am sure that further things will need to be considered as we go forward.

The idea is that current racers will be able to continue without any changes to their cars and that those running at other clubs can join our racing on an even footing.

We will monitor the success of this decision throughout the year and I am sure it will be discussed at the AGM.

Gary

[Mowen208fly]

I think 13.5 is great as in line with most other clubs and I cant wait to have a go with my TC !

[Terry1965]

So we still dont have an intermediate class, its kids learning right from left or flat out 22,23 laps to be in with a chance :(

As 13.5 boosted is going to give almost the same laps as the open class it seems pointless unless a group of new members turn up from somewhere and want to race 13.5 boosted regularly!

So can I enter my 13.5 boosted car in both classes for the chance of 2 trophys:thumbsup:


Terry

[Tedje van Es]

Terry. My point exactly there is not going to be any difference. Just added cost to comply with the class.
Tve.

[jimmyturnbuckle]

Yes. 13.5 boosted can easily compete in the open. That's why I suggested a class that is based on 13.5 boosted and includes lower turn non boosted in that class. An intermediate solution that puts the message out that if you have a 13.5 boosted like everyone else, come and race with us in the open. If the 13.5 boosted gain in numbers then switch fully to it next year.

Everyone can then see how it goes throughout this year and make the decision at the next AGM. Simples.

However, as Terry said the original question was about an intermediate class to fit in between the Juniors and Adults. 17.5 blinky for example.

This would be ideal I think for the young boys that are competing with the adults at the moment as well as any other new members that are starting out and want to get a feel for it. We would see some great racing I think. :)