illegal 2.2 wheels ????

[fastfilli]

At the British winter Open Race, it was said by the BRCA officials

"Drivers are not allowed to use a certain American company’s wheels because they are larger than 2.2inch"

Anyone have a clue what wheel this is ????????? :eh?:

[terry.sc]

Absolute rubbish. The only BRCA rule regarding dimensions is:

23.7 Wheels and tyres must conform as follows:-
No form of metal or plastic spike, tubes or anything similar will be attached to the tyres. Maximum diameter allowed is 90mm front and rear. Only commercially available wheels and tyres may be used.

There is no rule to prevent anyone running a 3" wheel, as long as it is commercially available and the tyre doesn't exceed 90mm overall diameter.

The only argument you can use to ban any manufacturers wheel is if it is not commercially available in the UK.

[Lee1972]

At the British winter Open Race, it was said by the BRCA officials

"Drivers are not allowed to use a certain American company’s wheels because they are larger than 2.2inch"

Anyone have a clue what wheel this is ????????? :eh?:

Good point forgot all about that but would be interested in knowing.

[Al3xis007]

I heard that there was a wheel that they made for the worlds that there is something wrong with, don't know any more. Ask someone that went

[spenner]

There is slightly more to this than what has been mentioned above, what was also explained at the drivers briefing was the following:
Firstly there is no rule, as this has never been required. There is however a rule in the ifmar rule book.
So what was mentioned is that due to one manufacturer the dimensions that ifmar run to will be added to the brca off road. All manufacturers are aware of the dimensions, which is why they make wheels and tyres which all fit on each other's cars/wheels etc.

I know that people have been waiting for the outcome before deciding on what future wheels/tyres they do.

[Lee24h]

Who is the manufacture of these wheels?

[Mugenextreme]

I remember guys sanding rim at the worlds. Think it may have been DE Racing rims.

[neallewis]

is it the new AKA style of rim where the tyre bead glues like 1/8 tyres?

edit.
the AKA EVO wheels:
http://www.raceaka.com/110-Buggy-Wheels_c_76.html

http://www.redrc.net/2013/09/aka-evo-110th-buggy-wheels-slingshot-tyres/#more-71776

[racingdwarf]

There is slightly more to this than what has been mentioned above, what was also explained at the drivers briefing was the following:
Firstly there is no rule, as this has never been required. There is however a rule in the ifmar rule book.
So what was mentioned is that due to one manufacturer the dimensions that ifmar run to will be added to the brca off road. All manufacturers are aware of the dimensions, which is why they make wheels and tyres which all fit on each other's cars/wheels etc.

I know that people have been waiting for the outcome before deciding on what future wheels/tyres they do.

Bit lost here:blush:, Is how I read into it correct? The BRCA at present has no rule, But is going to adopt an IFMAR rule. so whats the big change?(I've not looked up the ifmar rule) are all the wheels we use now going to change spec, or are we suddenly going to fined some wheels are going to be deemed illegal to use?
And whats this certain manufacturer done to make this change needed?

The new AKA wheels make perfect sense if you are gluing US style dirt tyres as you need to get the glue right into the bead with a band on to squeeze it all together as they can be so soft,If you don't do a proper job they will be off rim on track in under a minute! unlike a tight fitting schumacher tyre that only needs a bead of thin glue run round.

reading from the last part of the quoted post, the change must carry some significant changes to say this:
" I know that people have been waiting for the outcome before deciding on what future wheels/tyres they do".

Hmmm????

[davidmog99]

I find this quite interesting. I know im not an expert tire gluer (excuse spelling) but the really soft holeshots i bought keep coming off the rims. I will try a google, but could you explain please how the new wheels work?

[racingdwarf]

Right here goes:D, Holeshots can be the devil, with a little sand paper sand bead on rim, degrease, now with the tyre I use old school rallyx method of getting the dremell out and with sanding drum and rough up the bead then clean thoroughly with motor cleaner, fit insert get everything in place on wheel, then fit tyre band to squeeze tyre to rim, then using thick super glue Zap green bottle, or AKA tyre glue etc, lift tyre from rim, apply glue and squeeze getting everything were it should be,tis bit is were the AKA style rim is easier as getting the tyre back into the bead just as you want it before the superglue starts to go can be a ba****d, if you don't get it spot on you have a nasty unbalanced wheel and tyre

with the AKA rallyx style rim you can just lift the bead from the rim slightly apply glue then let tyre band do its work as the tyre should just drop back onto the rim (in theory lol)

[terry.sc]

I find this quite interesting. I know im not an expert tire gluer (excuse spelling) but the really soft holeshots i bought keep coming off the rims. I will try a google, but could you explain please how the new wheels work?The AKA wheels are basically the same as normal buggy wheels, but with the outside beads missing. The tyre is butted up against the inner beads and it makes it easier to get glue between the tyre bead and the wheel.

[Col]

As this thread has been running for over 2 days, can anybody actually answer which wheels are not illegal, but looks like they are going to be illegal?
Before I loose the will to live would be nice...

[AC199]

....school rallyx method of getting the dremell out and with sanding drum and rough up the bead (vulcanise)....

A small thing, but at the risk of a kid reading this who's doing science at school, that isn't vulcanisation.

Vulcanisation is the process of adding sulphur bridge between polymer chains to reduce the stickyness of the rubber, not "roughing up a bead". That's called "roughing up a bead" or "Sanding"

I have to deal with enough misconceptions when i teach it, don't want kids reading this and believing it.

AC

[racingdwarf]

Ahh I stand corrected, It's from when I used to fix punctures as a kid on tractors (20 years ago) we use Vulcanising Cement Fluid, Thats doing a different thing tho, just looked it up and realised were I got my wires crossed:blush: but always did find science boring as hell:lol:

last post corrected

Now off to join Col at the top of his polly butler pit box,lost the will and going to throw myself off! As I now Can confirm I was crap at science but still no clearer.Is this just a misinterpreted conversation at a race meeting, or a coming rule change effecting what we have and what we may use in the future:confused:

[spenner]

http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-off-road/490323-aka-1-10-tire-thread-35.html

The above link will let you know the company in question, will also explain why they are illegal (to use in events which run to ifmar/roar and other members who adopt said dimensions)

Which some have above posted 'they are the same as normal 10th buggy wheels', when clearly you haven't seen them or even read up on them. Always good giving advice or making statements when actually you don't have any idea on the product.

[neallewis]

So yes the AKA EVO wheels/tyres as I mentioned/guessed. Why couldn't you just name them?

Also, have the BRCA actually said they are "illegal"?
And its pretty irrelevant here, as the tyre treads and compounds are not what we run.

[spenner]

I will point you in the direction of what is being said, I personally wasn't going to post a companies name. I was making sure the normal mis-leading or incorrect information wasn't given for readers to take away. Also, why didn't you or anyone else google it??? After all what is posted on here has to be true?? Doesn't it???

[spenner]

Also, have the BRCA actually said they are "illegal"?
And its pretty irrelevant here, as the tyre treads and compounds are not what we run.

I am sure the brca will have something confirmed very soon with regards to if they will be classed as 'illegal'.
I am also not sure how they become irrelevant?? At the moment tyres are made for 2.2 inch wheels, if the diameter of these wheels is bigger then it effects all.

What should be said is 'would they give any performance increase?'

[neallewis]

I am sure the brca will have something confirmed very soon with regards to if they will be classed as 'illegal'.
I am also not sure how they become irrelevant?? At the moment tyres are made for 2.2 inch wheels, if the diameter of these wheels is bigger then it effects all.

What should be said is 'would they give any performance increase?'

Well schumacher, ballistic buggies, proline and every other wheel manufacturer are not about to start making tyres and wheels to fit those AKA Evo wheels/tyres. They certainly don't have a bunch of product waiting to be sold.
It IS irrelevant here until the major UK market players bring out product that's compatible.
Buggy racers in the UK mostly use Schumacher 2.2 tyres, ballistics in the wet. Our few dirt tracks are Proline affiliated also.
No one uses 1/10 AKA dirt tyres here at race meetings.
Rest assured that if Schumacher made a move to this rim size/tyre fitment/rim, it *would* be BRCA legal.

The performance increase is really in the gluing. Faster, cleaner, easier, etc.
The overall rolling diameter of the tyre is the same. The rim bead is larger, ~2.4", about the same as the current outer lip on regular 2.2" wheels.

[DCM]

Just out of curiosity, would a Schumacher tyre fit that rim?

[neallewis]

Just out of curiosity, would a Schumacher tyre fit that rim?

No, it won't.

http://www.redrc.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/AKAEvoWheel4WD-1.jpg

The diameter of the wheel rim is similar to the diameter of the outer lip on a regular 2.2" rim, about 2.4".

A Schumacher tyre will be deformed and stretched out of shape.

[mark christopher]

Thank god I'm an engineer not a scientist......col u got room on your box for another:lol:

[neallewis]

Thank god I'm an engineer not a scientist......col u got room on your box for another:lol:

I'm an engineer too ;-)

Besides you can talk Mark, you're normally stirring the pot :p

[BuggyMaster]

Hey

Am i right in thinking, that even if the BRCA decide to change the current ruleing, then it won't take effect until the next agm, where it may or may not be voted in?

I know that the BRCA can change rules, but only if it effects safety?

I may be wrong

BM

[racingdwarf]

Thank god I'm an engineer not a scientist......col u got room on your box for another:lol:

steady now,, we will need to do a calculation to make sure the box is able to hold all our combined weight, or it may collapse before we get to jump! :lol:

[neallewis]

This video explains it all:

XneKnoUv1cM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XneKnoUv1cM

[mark christopher]

So its only the asize, not the design?

[neallewis]

So its only the asize, not the design?

yes, they are still round. just differently round.

[Mike Haswell]

What you have here is a classic example of manufacturer trying to be clever and it biting them. They now have a rim that only their tyre fits and a range of tyres that only fits their rim.

The buggy manufacturers, just like F1 and other full-sized racing, use the tyre as part of the suspension. Going low-profile isn't the way to go.

They have tried to use the maximum diameter including the rims as the diameter to which the tyres are ruled - a 5.59mm difference. Then they have the internal rims which make the wheel even larger than the maximum 61.47mm. There is an engineering drawing in the Ifmar rules 4.2.11 (page 14) which makes it clear.

[knighthawk]

Got to say this is starting to annoy me !

Why can the manufactures agree to make a standard type wheel and fitting !

The Touring section has 12mm hex as standard.

The 8th Rallycross section has 17mm hex as standard.

We as the 10th section are all over the place !

Pin fitting Front & Rears
Pin fitting Rears with 10mm Front Hex.
12mm Hex Front & Rear.
14mm Hex Front & Rear.

And now there are going to be different wheels and tyres types with AKA

Can someone knock their heads together and agree on one size !

12mm Hex seems to be to be the industry standard in Touring car which all the Manufactures make Off Road chassis, so why all the inconsistency ??


Sorry, rant over

[Mike Haswell]

Think that will take a bit of time to get them all to agree on a single size!

[knighthawk]

Think that will take a bit of time to get them all to agree on a single size!

They were half there a couple years ago !

Losi started with pin rears and 10mm hex fronts !
Tamiya, Associated, Kyosho all followed,

But the new raft of buggies came along, Durango was the first I believe and fitted 14mm Hex and now the others have fallen away and fitted what they want

[neallewis]

Got to say this is starting to annoy me !

And now there are going to be different wheels and tyres types with AKA

Sorry, rant over

oh no! shock news... someone has tried to reinvent the wheel, again.

Don't worry about it. These AKA rims are 12mm hex, not that it matters.
In the UK its not an issue, as I've mentioned before. Schumacher aren't about to throw away their tyre moulds and make new ones to fit these rims. It's irrelevant to the UK 1/10th buggy market. The BRCA may make a rule change, if only to ensure that we keep using tyres and wheels of the current design. I'm sure Schumacher may even push the BRCA to write in that rule, which is probably where this is coming from?
Either way, do any UK dealers actually carry any AKA EVO wheels and tyres? I think not as its an obsolete product here. The tyres are only for US style indoor hard packed clay. We have two tracks like that in the UK, RHR Dirt and
Storm Valley, both of which are Proline tyres (CML) only.

AKA may have tried to innovate with this product, but I think it's being shut down. Notice they haven't committed their entire tyre range to it, probably a smart move, given the rest of the industry in the US is trying to shut them down with this change.

Next.

[Col]

It's irrelevant to the UK 1/10th buggy market.

That is my interpretation as well. TBH I can't see why our BRCA would go to the trouble of banning them.

[spenner]

Well schumacher, ballistic buggies, proline and every other wheel manufacturer are not about to start making tyres and wheels to fit those AKA Evo wheels/tyres. They certainly don't have a bunch of product waiting to be sold.
It IS irrelevant here until the major UK market players bring out product that's compatible.
Buggy racers in the UK mostly use Schumacher 2.2 tyres, ballistics in the wet. Our few dirt tracks are Proline affiliated also.
No one uses 1/10 AKA dirt tyres here at race meetings.
Rest assured that if Schumacher made a move to this rim size/tyre fitment/rim, it *would* be BRCA legal.

The performance increase is really in the gluing. Faster, cleaner, easier, etc.
The overall rolling diameter of the tyre is the same. The rim bead is larger, ~2.4", about the same as the current outer lip on regular 2.2" wheels.

Have to disagree I am afraid, what they do in the rest of the world has a major impact on the uk. If losi, j concepts, de racing, pro line, associated to name a few adopt this style (hence the quote I made above regarding people waiting for an outcome) that would mean the rest would need to follow suit. The dimensions have been put in place (for the wheel) for many years. Sadly your quote regarding what Schumacher do, does not mean they would be legal, it would mean someone hasn't done their job properly!!

The uk is a small market for the big guns out there and although I like what aka have done for the reasons you mention.
It could kick start companies looking at this type of wheel, but as it currently stands they would need to be made to the dimensions allowed.

[DCM]

That is my interpretation as well. TBH I can't see why our BRCA would go to the trouble of banning them.

I have absolutely loads to comment on that, but fear my inbox may explode!!!

[Col]

I have absolutely loads to comment on that, but fear my inbox may explode!!!

Go for it buddy! I wish for enlightenment:D

[terry.sc]

Have to disagree I am afraid, what they do in the rest of the world has a major impact on the uk. If losi, j concepts, de racing, pro line, associated to name a few adopt this style (hence the quote I made above regarding people waiting for an outcome) that would mean the rest would need to follow suit.
First of all if the manufacturers want to move to this new diameter first they will have to get ROAR and IFMAR to change their rules. Both specify a 2.2" maximum bead diameter, these AKA wheels aren't legal for sanctioned racing already. It doesn't stop club racers from using them, just like a BRCA rule wouldn't stop club racers here using them either.

So everyone is making a fuss based on overhearing something about wheels that aren't sold over here, nor do they fit any of the control tyres we use and won't be usable in the UK unless AKA start making astro compatible minipins and clubs start choosing them as control tyres for BRCA meetings - that just isn't going to happen.

If AKA had made the wheels with a tyre bead at 2.2" there might have been a market for the wheels, and you would have been able to to use your favourite tyres on them. By the time of the AGM to add wheels dimensions to the rules these wheels will have been forgotten about.

[racingdwarf]

I agree with some posts, the aka wheels will be great for US style tyres like proline and AKA as they have chunkier beads and are far baggier on the wheel when fitting so the extra size will make them a better fit and the outside lip missing will be handy. But I know of 3 tracks in the uk you may want them for RHR,storm valley and our dirt track at NBC(:D) as far as I know non of these venues hold any sort of sanctioned event. The fact that for 99.9% of uk tracks you want shumacker tyres or BB tyres and the BRCA tyre rule that most regions follow will make these rims useless in uk, so really make no difference.

The big change could be if in the US, japan etc as they use dirt tyres all the time.If they change the rule to suit these rims as they work well for them, then AE, TLR and yokomo could follow making there wheels the design and size of the AKA, this could in time cause a big problem us in the uk as our uk shumacker tyres will not fit the rim! and we could have a period of time when half the cars at a regional and national can't run the control tyre:eh?:

But if BRCA adopt, then follow the ifmar rule schumacher could be left with no choice than to change their tyre sizes as if not there tyres will only fit their cars:woot:

BRCA are quite smart if they adopt the ifmar rule now, as if ifmar changes BRCA can just follow in the future.

So if all the above did happen AKA may start the biggest change since 2.2, and it's not favouring shumacher

[Col]

But I know of 3 tracks in the uk you may want them for RHR,storm valley and our dirt track at NBC(:D)

That would be just your track then - both RHR and Storm Valley are proline only!

[neallewis]

That would be just your track then - both RHR and Storm Valley are proline only!

There is an echo! ;-)

Looks like AKA are producing more tyres in the evo format though:
http://www.rcnews.net/2014/03/12/new-aka-tyres-at-cactus-classic/

[Si Coe]

Before people go around suggesting these new wheels are irrelevant to the UK market, its worth remembering how we ended up with 2.2in wheels.

It all started with a special Yokomo wheel / tyre made for the '89 Worlds. Back then all our wheels were 2in, but Yokomo used a loophole in the rules (which governed the outer diameter of the tyre) to make a low profile dirt tyre on a 2.2in wheel. Oh, and the wheels were pink.

After dominating the Worlds, everyone HAD to have 2.2in wheels, in pink. Never mind that the only 2.2 tyres were the Yokomo dirt ones, irrelevant to UK racing. We used to stretch and trim 2in Schumacher cut spikes to get them on to the 2.2in rims. In the end Schumacher had to start making tyres in the new size.

This is relevant today. As soon as people decide Evo format wheels are 'the next big thing' they will do all they can to make them work, and companies like Schumacher will have to adapt or lose customers.

Of course if they are comprehensively banned from major level racing, they are a lot less like to become 'the next big thing' so this might be irrelevant after all.

[racingdwarf]

That would be just your track then - both RHR and Storm Valley are proline only!

Ah bloody hell, just pinged an Email over to AKA about that, they are gutted now I told them, going to ditch the who Idea now they found that out:p:D


stand corrected, we were proline only to, but this said I strongly suspect a holeshot would fit the new rim better than they fit some of our current rims, but until someone has actually tried in person I just don't know, but there is way more give and pliability in a set of holeshots than in a set of minispikes.

But the point of my post has only been understood by one, The UK market is irrelevant if the rest of the world want these wheels they would come weather we like it or not, thus why the BRCA are smart to grab on to the IFMAR rule now rather than deal with the shit storm that would happen if they had to make the rules up themselves at the last minute to keep up with what manufacturers were making and BRCA control tyres not fitting:(. And as said in si Coe post,if the wheels work racers will want them UK's market will just have to keep up like it or not.

Both Mugen and kyosho made an educated gamble with the uk market by dumping UK importers,it was a risk, but it showed how small our market is for that risk to be worth taking,Tamiya always show us how small we are

Just have to wait and see what goes on, just my view on it, may never happen eh,

[neallewis]

But the point of my post has only been understood by one, The UK market is irrelevant if the rest of the world want these wheels they would come weather we like it or not, thus why the BRCA are smart to grab on to the IFMAR rule now rather than deal with the shit storm that would happen if they had to make the rules up themselves at the last minute to keep up with what manufacturers were making and BRCA control tyres not fitting:(. And as said in si Coe post,if the wheels work racers will want them UK's market will just have to keep up like it or not.

Both Mugen and kyosho made an educated gamble with the uk market by dumping UK importers,it was a risk, but it showed how small our market is for that risk to be worth taking,Tamiya always show us how small we are

Just have to wait and see what goes on, just my view on it, may never happen eh,

No really I understood your point as well. It's a fair point made. I guess I missed: they are irrelevant to the UK market "now" ;-)

Has anyone spoken to Paul Worsley for his take on it?

AKA are Kyosho/Orion. I do see the likes of proline and jconcept fighting it out though, however if they are loosing sales to a well performing product, they will follow suit. I see they are allowed at the cactus classic with AKA sponsored drivers running them.

I actually think it looks like a decent method of attachment and can only prove better than some of the badly fitting wheels/tyres that we current use. Schumacher tyres on xray xb4 wheels are particularly badly fitting. The tyre bead sits higher than the rim, and you've a big gap to fill with glue.

[spenner]

Looks like irrelevant became very relevant...

Aka, pro line and jconcepts are all running the new wheels at the cactus!

Just a matter of time now before we all see this as the norm I would guess, sadly if they all start doing it then someone somewhere has to back down.

[terry.sc]

Looks like irrelevant became very relevant...

Aka, pro line and jconcepts are all running the new wheels at the cactus!

The wheels will only be relevant in the UK when they fit Schumacher minipins and minispikes, unless you think AKA are going to come up with a tyre that is better than Schumachers on astro and clubs are going to choose it as their spec tyre.

If anyone wants to experiment with AKA style wheels, why not try just trimming the outer lips off a standard 2.2" wheel.

[DCM]

Clubs have a spec tyre for club racing???

Aren't a lot of the American tyre manufacturers making 'carpet spec' tyres to, so it would only be a matter of time before someone tries them, and if they work and are quicker....

[racingdwarf]

The wheels will only be relevant in the UK when they fit Schumacher minipins and minispikes, unless you think AKA are going to come up with a tyre that is better than Schumachers on astro and clubs are going to choose it as their spec tyre.

If anyone wants to experiment with AKA style wheels, why not try just trimming the outer lips off a standard 2.2" wheel.

yer, but if all cars/wheels from TLR and AE, proline etc only produced in this style and more importantly size in years to come we in the uk could have a tricky problem that schumacker tyres only fit Schumacher rims, This could work well in the uk for schumacher, as to race in a brca event you need to run a schumacher car:lol:

[smokes]

I Still don't see the advantages of the evo rim. It may be easier to glue but you lose the security that external bead gives especially if you don't get the glue evenly on between the rim and the tyre. The bead is there to stop tyre rolling of the rim as the vehicle turns in a corner. The internal bead is there to stop the tyre bead rolling in on itself as the is no internal pressure or a steel ply to control the tyre profile. the glue is there to bond the tyre bead to the wheel bead but not take any of the forces.

You also really don't want to use the super glue in a shear condition the cryanoacrylate glue peel strength isn't that great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate)

You would have to use something like an aircraft grade glue that has a higher peel strength to perform the task of the external bead.

I would love to see the design calcs they have actually done to calculate how much load the bond will be under. And how much interference pressure the undersized rubber internal diameter and the over size rim dimeter will generate. Based on the rubber shore ratings used.

My guess is unless you are very good at gluing the tyres the EVO design will not be as good as having an external bead.

[racingdwarf]

I agree that of our UK standard tyres the rim style we have at this time works well, And the new design has no real advantage, but for the softer dirt style tyres I think it is better for all the reasons AKA states for ease of glueing.

I'm no design engineer but I understand your point about glues, the only thing I can say is this style of rim has been used in 1/8th rallx for quite some time by most manufacturers and those tyres take some load and balloon on the straight to such an extent you really can't believe the glue can hold them but it does.

I'm not saying these wheels are any better and that we should have them, or that the wheels we use are a problem.But I can see the advantage to other racers in the rest of the world, thus the reason why we may end up seeing them as the standard wheel design. IF and only if that happens the question at the start of the thred was kind of Hmm if this wheel is the norm were does this leave us with the tyres we mostly use in the uk that if stretched to fit will go out of shape.

[terry.sc]

yer, but if all cars/wheels from TLR and AE, proline etc only produced in this style and more importantly size in years to come we in the uk could have a tricky problem that schumacker tyres only fit Schumacher rims, This could work well in the uk for schumacher, as to race in a brca event you need to run a schumacher car:lol:
If all cars from TLR and AE only had AKA size wheels and no other company made wheels to fit them, no TLR or AE cars would be race legal for ROAR and IFMAR events. Never going to happen.

Now if by chance the buggy manufacturers do persuade ROAR and IFMAR to change their current rules, and then only make wheels to the new size so preventing racers using the tyres they are familiar with, and changing the axles so old wheels won't fit on them, the only way you wouldn't be able to fit 2.2" tyres is if DE Racing, Proline, RPM, JConcepts, JC Racing, Fastrax, Ballistic Buggy, Schumacher and others decide not to bother making 2.2" wheels for an obvious market for them. There will always be several options to fit 2.2" tyres to buggies whatever the manufacturers do.