Gyro's banned

[MHeadling]

http://news.efra.ws/fileadmin/news/2014/04/gyro.pdf

I see on Redrc efra have banned the use of gyros, I know in 10th they were banned many years ago after the LRP traction control system etc

Just wondered what they would actually do to the handling of the car with one fitted?

Would it really make that much difference? ie would a top level driver be able to shave off a few tenths a lap with a gyro fitted?

[DCM]

I reckon, for a world class driver it would make them slower, but for your average Joe, they would be more consistent than without, as you will be telling the car how much steering/power and the gyro will actually be controlling the servo's for steering and throttle.

[Danny Harrison]

http://news.efra.ws/fileadmin/news/2014/04/gyro.pdf

I see on Redrc efra have banned the use of gyros, I know in 10th they were banned many years ago after the LRP traction control system etc

Just wondered what they would actually do to the handling of the car with one fitted?

Would it really make that much difference? ie would a top level driver be able to shave off a few tenths a lap with a gyro fitted?
The gyro autocorrects the steering when the rear of the car tries to slide out, keeping it pointing where you want.

On a very slippy track there would most likely be an advantage to be had, if set up correctly.

They mostly help drift cars from spinning around, cant see it helping in most scenarios.

[Big G]

briefly tried one on a low grip track and I was a fair bit slower and more prone to crashing. The car was constantly fighting what I knew was best.

[neallewis]

i don't know understand why kebabs are being banned?

[neallewis]

from my experience flying quads which use gyro's to keep the things in the air, there is an element of gain tuning that needs to be done to get the best input and feedback tuned to where it needs to be. never used one in cars, and won't, but i think the neobuggy example video had the gains turned up somewhat to show an extreme effect.
gR2alINaDt8

I think bashers, who can't drive in a straight line, will be queueing up to buy them, unfortunately.

[Big G]

I think bashers, who can't drive in a straight line, will be queueing up to buy them, unfortunately.

and then find it extremely difficult to adapt if they move onto racing.

[crtpromachine]

This is just my opinion and mine only i am sorry to say but any gyro fitted to any rc car is a form of cheating and if you cannot drive a car without having one of these fitted why bother going out in the first place


R/C is supposed to be about fair and share if people are using gyros then this is not a very fair way of playing the game or being a good sportsmanship;

I am not saying do not use these on test days but should not be used at any form of meeting whether club regional or national level ;

Like i said this is just my opinion and no one elses

[Cruise]

To answer the question of the topic starter:

yes it makes a big difference in handling.
There was a time when gyros were allowed, and you could just pull the throttle whatever grip was there you wouldn`t spin.
The cars were setup with tons of steering and the most forward traction you could get.
Driving was point and shoot, you just brake the car around the corner and then hit the gas.

My gyro once failed in a final an I tried to go without. The result was undrivable- just like using yellow Schumacher tires on clay when everybody else is running Holeshot .

In the end the usual suspects were the fastest.

Cruise

[dodgydiy]

gyro's will make a poorly setup car handle better, but wont help much with a well set up car, or help any driver that likes to be able to throw the car at the corner. very useful if you want something like a speed run car to be more stable, not tried but i cant imagine one helping much off road. they do help quite a bit in a heli but setting up is a pain in the ass

[Essex2Visuvesi]

I know some of the Drift 2wd drift guys use them.
There was a chap at our track last summer testing his 2wd drift car with a gyro as it was uncontrollable without it

[SlowOne]

I don't understand why they needed to issue this. Rule 4.2 in Appendix 3, Electric Cars clearly states:

"Automated steering, gyroscopes to control car movement, traction control, active suspension are not allowed."

It's the same in the IFMAR Rules. I wrote them almost 20 years ago! Why did EFRA not simply quote the existing rule?

Checking is easy. With the cars on the line ready to start, pick one up and waggle it from side to side. If the front wheels steer, take the car away and ban the driver!

[KRob]

Slow One, the press release from EFRA/IFMAR is none class specific but it has been put out there because of the 'rumours' that '8 of the top 10' at the recent 1/8th RallyX Euros B were using gyros.

[neallewis]

Cheaters. like some others using tyre additive at the 1/10th Euros warm up the other week.

[bomber]

Spektrum have their AVC system that is a gyro and traction control all built into the receiver, having drove a 1/8 buggy with this installed I can only say the advantage would be massive if used to race, it is definately cheating and needs to be scrutineered for somehow

[learnerdriver]

Spektrum have their AVC system that is a gyro and traction control all built into the receiver, having drove a 1/8 buggy with this installed I can only say the advantage would be massive if used to race, it is definately cheating and needs to be scrutineered for somehow

According to the blurb , the avc receiver comes with a blinky mode to show that avc is dis-abled , so should be easy to check !

[SlowOne]

Slow One, the press release from EFRA/IFMAR is none class specific but it has been put out there because of the 'rumours' that '8 of the top 10' at the recent 1/8th RallyX Euros B were using gyros.Thanks, KRob.

Spektrum have their AVC system that is a gyro and traction control all built into the receiver, having drove a 1/8 buggy with this installed I can only say the advantage would be massive if used to race, it is definately cheating and needs to be scrutineered for somehowChecking is easy. With the car ready to race and the Tx out of the driver's hands, pick it up and wiggle it from side to side. When you do that the front wheels will steer - gyro fitted and enabled!!

I imagine that it could also be attached to the throttle to trim the car in flight, so tilting the car up and down should make the throttle servo move as well.

Whether gyros are fitted or not, the qualifying order will be unchanged. However, we will quickly get back to the programming with a lap top that we had with BL speedos before so many classes went 'blinky'. Good to see EFRA sorting it out quickly before software wins over driver skill.

[mark christopher]

Thanks, KRob.

Checking is easy. With the car ready to race and the Tx out of the driver's hands, pick it up and wiggle it from side to side. When you do that the front wheels will steer - gyro fitted and enabled!!

I imagine that it could also be attached to the throttle to trim the car in flight, so tilting the car up and down should make the throttle servo move as well.

Whether gyros are fitted or not, the qualifying order will be unchanged. However, we will quickly get back to the programming with a lap top that we had with BL speedos before so many classes went 'blinky'. Good to see EFRA sorting it out quickly before software wins over driver skill.

Does it have an altimeter then so it knows its pitching in the air and not say going up a ramp of a jump?

[MHeadling]

A good video demonstrating gyro/AVC

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=665503026875162&id=368033803288754

[fidspeed]

Does it have an altimeter then so it knows its pitching in the air and not say going up a ramp of a jump?


most gyros are single axis and only control one channel (on heli's its the rudder channel) try flying a heli without a gyro is a mega task

there are dual axis gyro's which in theory could be linked to both throttle and steering channels on a car , it wouldnt be an altimeter control but i can see where Mark is coming from , on an upslope the pitch angle may induce the gyro to act and open or close the throttle (on electric im not sure this would be possible but on a on a gas car with throttle servo i dont see why not

heli pilots better than me please put me straight if im talking codswallop :thumbsup:

regards dave

[SlowOne]

Agree with Dave - this is a programming issue for which you have to think systems (if.. then... and where... when... then...) and not discrete events. You don't need an altimeter, you have all the data you need for a systems designer to make it do anything for you.

This is all software related, so anything is probable. To trim in flight you need the gyro to feed pitch signals to the 'brain' and then output response commands to the relevant controls.

I am not sure if this works for every situation in a race, but one could ask the system to use pitch-related gyro signals to maintain trim through the throttle servo when the car sees motion in pitch that has a rate of change less than x degrees per second, the steering is straight ahead and the throttle is closed.

Rate of change of pitch would rule out the system coming in when entering a bumpy corner with the throttle shut (bumpy means high rate of change of pitch angle), throttle open would allow you up ramps without the gyro taking over, and since jumps are straight all that remains is to shut the throttle on take off and pick it up again just before landing with the steering remaining straight during flight.

If you thought of this before the next team then you simply plug your receiver into the PC, upload the software and settings and away you go. Though of another setting or control logic? Write one day and race the next.

An input from a heli pilot on how they do it would be welcome - if only to confirm that the average Joe would be laps behind if this technology were to find its way into RC cars!!

[mark christopher]

Pete not sure the last time you raced off road, even last Sunday I raced at rhr and we were jumping at angles and needed steering to correct, my grip position in the final also saw the car on a slope nose down, not that would tell the car to apply throttle? Don't see how if could tell on the ground to in flight., defo advantage to steering and controlling wheel spin/throttle as the spectrum version tho.

[SlowOne]

I'm a mechanical engineer, not a systems engineer! All I know is that using limited sensors and flight conditions, you can command a gas turbine to do all sorts of things by telling the software what conditions are needed to do what.

In May 1991, Lauda Air flight 004 crashed near Bangkok due to the deployment of a thrust reverser in flight. The cause was a system sensor failure that allowed the control system to think that the conditions for deploying the reverser were OK. Boeing fitted modified parts and the control system was updated to include a signal that the undercarriage was seeing a load equivalent to the weight of the aircraft when it was on the ground. No additional sensors were needed, just the systems logic to take certain conditions as being present before the engine could command deployment of the thrust reverser.

It's just a question of sorting out what conditions are needed to auto-trim a car in flight.

As solid-state gyros are so easy to fit into receivers, etc, along with control chips to store programs and take signals, it is just a case of waiting for someone to do it. That's why a ban is so important - whatever you can do with a PC and a speedo is just a whisker away from a couple of gyros, a bit of software and a PC.

As you say, a definite advantage which the average Joe could do without having to get their head around!