Is technology outpacing driver skill?

[bedsrcmcc]

It’s the elephant in the room that no one seems to want to give an honest answer to, so I’m going to put my head above the trench and see what happens! :woot:

I’ve been racing at club level now for more than 35 years and yes I still have the bug for RC racing. Even after time away from racing to have a family, I’m back again doing what I love week in week out. Like a stick of rock, cut me in half and I have ‘Club Racer’ running all the way through me. I have no intention of doing regionals or nationals, it’s just not my thing (have done them many years ago now and never liked it – drivers taking it far too seriously) but if that’s your thing I have no objections to you doing it and good luck in the big regionals that you enter yourself into.

So let’s get back to what makes me tick – CLUB RACING. This is about like-minded racers turning out at their local club each week to have some fun, enjoy some pit side banter and also on track action. We all go home, hopefully, having had a great evening (or day) of racing and look forward to doing it all again in 7 days. These clubs run their own Championships which we all participate in and hopefully walk away at the end with a little bit of plastic with our name engraved on a little brass plaque. If we don’t get one it doesn’t matter because that’s not why we turned up in the first place. Club racers go racing for fun and they want to have some great wheel to wheel racing on track and that’s that.

OK, so I’ve set the scene, now let me introduce the elephant in the room – Brushless/LiPo technology.

Yes, the Brushless/LiPo technology has changed the face of RC racing, in the main for the very good of our hobby. However there is a darker side to this technology, especially when it comes to electronics and that is the feeling I have that the technology is increasing at a far faster rate than driver skill is which means we are getting faster and faster cars and RC drivers who are unable to control these cars at such increased speeds, especially those who are new to the hobby.

I see it week in week out at our own club (and I’m sure we are not the only club that experience these issues) where those new to the RC hobby are kitting themselves out with equipment that far far exceeds their driving ability. It makes me laugh when I see people spending £100’s on equipment when they haven’t even learnt how to drive a car around a corner, let alone a lap, without either hitting the track edging or a competitors car! I feel like a scratched record when I say week in week out – drive slower and you’ll improve your lap times.

It also makes me laugh that I see members having spent a fortune on the very latest Hobbywing ESC and the latest motor and the hottest new LiPos that have zillions of amps and mega buckets of capacity available to them at the flick of a switch! Funny then that the expensive ESC has to run at its slowest setting (blinky) to even race in the class - GT12 in this case. So why do they do it – Simples (as a well-known Meerkat would say) it’s because they see highly skilled drivers with years of experience behind them (often sponsored drivers too) who have all the latest kit and they think they must be driving so well because they have all the best kit – WRONG. The best piece of kit they have at their disposal are the hands/brain that have hold of the transmitter on the rostrum and no amount of money can give you that.

I came up with a potential solution for the problem at the club I run with the introduction of a ‘Back to Basics’ class which has now morphed into a class I call 1:12 Trucks. The focus is on the driver and not the kit so we run a cheap standard Core ESC, basic Core LiPo (3200 only) and a 17.5 Stock Speed Passion motor (no other motor allowed). The racing in this class which we introduced for the first time for our club’s Spring Championship that has just finished has been fantastic. The drivers come off the rostrum after each race with huge grins on their faces. Whoever says that racing ‘slow’ RC cars is boring needs their head sorted. I haven’t had so much fun with RC racing for a long time and it takes me back to the good old days of what got me into RC racing in the first place – the fun factor.

Now this is the big issue in my mind that the manufacturers need to be made aware of. The future of RC racing relies on us all getting the PlayStation Generation out of their bedrooms and racing wheel to wheel with others. We have seen members come and go at our club and two main reasons why members leave are – fed up of being hit by other drivers and the fun factor is being taken over by a competitive win at all costs atmosphere.

What the hobby needs (and I hope a manufacturer is reading this) is for all the companies to work together to produce a Clubman’s standard set of motors, LiPos and ESCs that are simple plug and play items that have no means of being adjusted or upgraded firmware added to them, but are built to the same high quality standards of their more expensive and functionally enhanced products. Drivers can choice their preferred brand but in the knowledge that a Clubman’s Novak is the same spec as a Reedy one, or Hobbywing one. That way, clubs up and down the country where the vast majority of 1000’s of RC racers enjoy their hobby can help nurture the talent and members of tomorrow.

Don’t get me wrong, I love racing RC cars and racing them fast (but they are being run fast and under control), but I’m also keen to ensure we can encourage new blood into the hobby and keep them coming back week after week and provide them with the kit that will allow them to learn how to drive before they even think of going fast.

OK, rant over :cry:

However I would be interested to read what others think about this topic…

[mattr]

However I would be interested to read what others think about this topic…You should have used the search function. This comes up in one form or other every few weeks. :wink:
In summary:
You can't change people, they always want the shiniest toys they can afford.
Most clubs have some sort of clubman class anyway, if people want to use over specced kit for it, it's their look out.
Give better advice to new starters.
Doesn't really apply to all classes. Slow motors in 1800 gram 4wd buggies outdoors is a bit dull. Slow motors in sub-kilo gt12, pan cars etc indoors isn't actually all that Slow.

Other than that, people who race classes/facilities that suit clubman style racing agree, people who race classes/facilities that don't suit clubman, disagree.
FWIW, I'd prefer a clubman style of racing when we drive indoors, a 6.5t motor is far too much grunt, outdoors, I'd get bored with anything much slower than a boosted 10.5t, it'd take 10 seconds to get down the straight.

[bedsrcmcc]

Completely agree about outdoor off-roading, you do need a fairly quicker setup.

We always try to inform newbies about the perils of going too fast too soon and not spending a fortune when it simply is not needed.

We did a random check on some cars recently and found that some drivers had not even calibrated their ESC. That's why I stand by my thoughts that the manufacturers have to do their bit to help those new to the hobby by providing plug and play equipment that makes it easy for those new to the hobby get their first foot on the ladder.

However it seems that SPEED sells and therefore these ideas will probably fall on deaf ears :confused:

[mark christopher]

It also makes me laugh that I see members having spent a fortune on the very latest Hobbywing ESC and the latest motor and the hottest new LiPos that have zillions of amps and mega buckets of capacity available to them at the flick of a switch! Funny then that the expensive ESC has to run at its slowest setting (blinky) to even race in the class - GT12 in this case. So why do they do it – Simples (as a well-known Meerkat would say) it’s because they see highly skilled drivers with years of experience behind them (often sponsored drivers too) who have all the latest kit and they think they must be driving so well because they have all the best kit – WRONG. The best piece of kit they have at their disposal are the hands/brain that have hold of the transmitter on the rostrum and no amount of money can give you that.


However I would be interested to read what others think about this topic…

your sig line....


Current classes/cars I race in:
GT12: Schumacher SupaStox : XERUN V3.1 ESC | Thunder Power 13.5 Motor | Futaba 2.4GHz | Intellect LiPo



Says it all!!:thumbsup::p

[bedsrcmcc]

I couldn't agree more :blush:

However, I can drive it around a track without hitting the track on every corner :thumbsup:

My point is really aimed at beginners, not RC drivers who've been racing for 35 years though...

Having said that, I've rested the GT12 for the last Club Championship to focus on the 1:12 Trucks that I introduced to the club and believe me, I've never had so much fun with the basic setup. Last Friday's meeting was one of the best meetings I've ever had in 35 years with some sensational wheel to wheel racing with fellow 1:12 Truck racer Al Petts :thumbsup: We both came away from racing with HUGE :D

[adey]

I see a similar thing at our club especially with the smaller eighteenth scale buggies. They are seriously fast and the less experienced racers just smash into things and cause chaos. I tell people to go slower and not crash and over the five minute race they will improve their times drastically but most never listen. I also have noticed that some of the ready to run cars that turn up are also rockets in a straight line and far too fast for the people using them. I think that even the basic brushless electronics today are now so powerful that beginners struggle to cope with the speed or power delivery.

[bedsrcmcc]

I also have noticed that some of the ready to run cars that turn up are also rockets in a straight line and far too fast for the people using them. I think that even the basic brushless electronics today are now so powerful that beginners struggle to cope with the speed or power delivery.

My point exactly - manufacturers I guess just want to sell equipment, but it would be great if they considered the club scene too.

I've heard that the BRCA are thinking of introducing a slower clubmans class for GT12 - but how do we deal with members who've got faster setups? They will not be going out and getting the slower motors - so what class do you put them into? :eh?:

[sosidge]

There isn't any real advantage to running an expensive LiPo or and expensive ESC in a blinky class - the problem is that people see the fastest cars running those parts and perceive it is the electrics, whereas really it is the time spent in setting up the powerplant and the skill in driving it.

I don't think that 1s 13.5 GT12 is particularly fast, it is still a driveable class for all the abilities I have seen trying it.

In touring, I don't think that 17.5 2s is too fast either. All abilities that I have seen can cope with the cars, yes there are some very fast cars in the class but again that is down to time spent on prep and driving rather than the superiority of any particular electronics.

Technology hasn't made RC too fast or too expensive. Brushless and LiPo have actually made the (longer-term) costs far cheaper. The cars are a good speed - it is people that make it expensive!

[bedsrcmcc]

We ran a special evening recently to offer advice and guidance of chassis setup - focussing on what to do away from the track with no mention of speed.

2 drivers turned up! :cry:

Maybe that says it all :eh?:

[beale]

I am trying to help with a couple of young lads at my local small club that have 13t ezrun's when 21t would still be too fast, 1 of them listens and is improving but the other watches the fast guys go round and thinks he should go faster.
I proved the point to them by reducing their end points to 50% and said when the can get round the track for a few laps without a crash they get 1%. They both improved in their next heat.
Unfortunately the 1 that doesn't listen Sussed out how to put it back and has not improved at all, his brother is clocking extra laps each heat generally!
I will reset end points (calibrate handset to 50%) on ESC next meet and hopefully this will sort that problem.
It has also improved my driving by reducing speed I went from boosted 13.5 to blinky then 17.5 blinky and I am still getting lap counts in the same ball park at a few clubs but enjoying it more as I have to string good laps together to make a pass not just blitz the straight.
A club mans class will mean buying new equipment so that isn't really an option everywhere so I will keep working with individuals in the hope that they will listen and improve :eh?:

[bedsrcmcc]

There isn't any real advantage to running an expensive LiPo or and expensive ESC in a blinky class

So if manufacturers are creating ESC with blinky settings, surely there is a need for a basic ESC that is perfect for the beginner with no experience of RC racing that is simply plug and play?

However, I totally agree that the modern day brushless/LiPo kit makes is so much easier in terms of maintenance for anyone who goes racing. However 13.5 in GT12 even with blinky is in my view too fast for a complete beginner. These motors are faster than the good old days of 27T stock brushed motors.

We stopped running Touring Cars because they were getting too fast and leaving the track. Maybe those looking for outright speed should consider off-road because on-road requires much more finesse and far more control and is less forgiving too.

...when you have a driver pulling his car off the track because they are fed up of being hit all the time, we need to do something! :cry:

[bedsrcmcc]

I am trying to help with a couple of young lads at my local small club that have 13t ezrun's when 21t would still be too fast, 1 of them listens and is improving but the other watches the fast guys go round and thinks he should go faster.
I proved the point to them by reducing their end points to 50% and said when the can get round the track for a few laps without a crash they get 1%. They both improved in their next heat.
Unfortunately the 1 that doesn't listen Sussed out how to put it back and has not improved at all, his brother is clocking extra laps each heat generally!
I will reset end points (calibrate handset to 50%) on ESC next meet and hopefully this will sort that problem.
It has also improved my driving by reducing speed I went from boosted 13.5 to blinky then 17.5 blinky and I am still getting lap counts in the same ball park at a few clubs but enjoying it more as I have to string good laps together to make a pass not just blitz the straight.

I've been saying this, not just to kids, for years and it still doesn't seem to work! Even when you do reduce the speed they moan but suddenly they improve their times :o

But a week later they've put the speed back up and surprise surprise - guess what happens!!!! :cry:

I just worry about all the other drivers who keep getting hit - how do you think they feel?

[bedsrcmcc]

For the last 2 rounds of our Spring Championship we had a race ref stand on the rostrum and watch every race, giving drivers a strike for poor driving and with 3 strikes they would get 5 points deducted, another 3 strikes and 10 points and so on.

Guess what - everyone drove perfectly for those two rounds.

Now, take the ref away and what happens - I'll let you decide that one.... :bored:

[mark christopher]

My point exactly - manufacturers I guess just want to sell equipment, but it would be great if they considered the club scene too.

I've heard that the BRCA are thinking of introducing a slower clubmans class for GT12 - but how do we deal with members who've got faster setups? They will not be going out and getting the slower motors - so what class do you put them into? :eh?:


the manufactures don't force users to buy, clubs are capable of running "spec classes if they so desire, look at the rc10 class in the oople series...
or are you saying manufactures don't make budget gear? in your op you mention hobbywing, so lets look, they do a speedo for £40, so not their fault users buy a high end speedo.

Gt12 indeed does have two classes (rules done in june at egm)
super cup, car mods allowed 13.5 motor
production cup, car mods allowed 17.5

so to answer your question put them in the correct class!

[bedsrcmcc]

That's great news about the GT12 Classes, but...

If we are to introduce these two classes at our club, how do we get those beginners to go buy new 17.5 motors?

We did think of getting a batch of them at the club and asking drivers to swap their 13.5 for a 17.5 until we feel they are capable of driving safely and without hitting others on the track. Great idea in principle, but as I'm sure many clubs have, we have members who race at other clubs where they run 13.5 so I guess we are stuck between a rock and a hard place! :eh?:

Trust me, I've never told anyone new to RC racing to go get all the latest most expensive kit around, in fact we advice them on our website to get the basic kit - but as everyone says, we can't enforce it.

We've bent over backwards to give people advice and guidance but if they don't listen what more can we do! It's such a shame as it spoils it for others who are really trying to improve their racing.

Arrhhhhhh!!! :cry:

[mattr]

TBH, when I started up again (after 25 years off), recommendation was 8.5t for 2wd buggy and 6.5t for 4wd.

All I did was crash.

Dropped to 13.5 and 10.5, didn't crash as much.

Few changes since, but still don't crash as much.

[bedsrcmcc]

TBH, when I started up again (after 25 years off), recommendation was 8.5t for 2wd buggy and 6.5t for 4wd.

All I did was crash.

Dropped to 13.5 and 10.5, didn't crash as much.

Few changes since, but still don't crash as much.

My point exactly - it's not Rocket Science - so why do people ignore our advice :mad:

[mattr]

Cos everyone wants to be one of the fast drivers, without having been one of the slow drivers first.

[SlowOne]

It's a great question, and one that has been asked for all of the 35 years you've been racing. That we have never found an answer tells you all you need to know - people do not want to learn, they just want to keep up with the other racers.

In my nigh-40-years racing, people who come racing want to learn to race. Within limits, it doesn't matter much what kit they have or how fast the motor is. What matters is whether or not they have managed to build the car properly and set it up right. Much, if not all the problems with people not being able to handle their car is that it handles poorly due to being built wrong or set up wrong.

If the technology is problematic, it seems to me that it is in the arena of equivalence. Yes, maybe a 13.5 motor was equivalent to a 27T brushed five years ago, but it sure as hell isn't now. We are living in the past where better batteries allowed us to use faster motors, so every so often we upped the spec.

35T was a stock motor in the late '70s, then we went to 32T, then 27T and finally 19T. Over that period we went from 1200mAh cells to 4000mAh. Now we have 7000mAh+ and a good 13.5TBL is the equivalent of a 10T brushed. Back in the day you couldn't start with something too fast because it wasn't available, and the cars were simple to build right and set up.

If things are to change today, then we need to make classes slower, not faster. Each year we need to dial back the motors, or put limits on the cell capacity. In LMP12 and GT12 we've done that, going down from 10.5T open speedo, to 10.5 blinky to 13.5 blinky in LMP12. In GT12 we've introduced the 17.5T ProductionCup using the same cars as the 13.5T SuperCup.

No, we should not expect that everyone in the Beds club goes out and buys a 17.5 to encourage new drivers to get into that class too. So perhaps you could say that in 2016 the club will change its premier class to GT12 17.5, giving everyone plenty of time to get one. Start a 17.5 heat now, make the Club championship that class next year, and then run it as exclusively as you can in 2016.

If you believe that the speed is the the key to learning to drive, then do something long term to get that class into your club. After all, we've been trying to tackle this problem for over 30 years, so what's another one if it gets a class going that you feel will attract more drivers to your club?

As you have discovered, new drivers think lap time is a function of straight-line speed and therefore see no need to come and learn how to build and set up a car. Slowing things down makes the set up window wider and the cars easier to drive. In the end, slowing it down is the only fix you have when people can't see that set up is crucial, and their fundamental understanding of race cars is more power means more speed. Just my 2p...

[bedsrcmcc]

In my nigh-40-years racing, people who come racing want to learn to race. Within limits, it doesn't matter much what kit they have or how fast the motor is. What matters is whether or not they have managed to build the car properly and set it up right. Much, if not all the problems with people not being able to handle their car is that it handles poorly due to being built wrong or set up wrong.

What a great reply, I couldn't have put it any better :thumbsup:

As I mentioned above in relation to your quote - we held a night for helping drivers with the setup and only 2 drivers turned up!

I actually like your idea of forewarning the club that we would introduce the 17.5 class by default next season, that gives them 6 months to sort themselves out and either drive well enough to stick with 13.5, or move across to the Production Cup for 17.5 motors.

As I've already mentioned, we introduced the Trucks as a back to basics class and it's really working well - enforceing 1 type of ESC and LiPo and Motor has really made a huge difference and is the best fun I've had in a long time, though I will be getting my GT12 up and running again before the years out :thumbsup:

[bedsrcmcc]

However, it will probably require all clubs to agree to these changes so that drivers who race at different clubs don't suddenly find themselves left on the sidelines with a car they can't use. :eh?:

[Aire valley]

For the last 2 rounds of our Spring Championship we had a race ref stand on the rostrum and watch every race, giving drivers a strike for poor driving and with 3 strikes they would get 5 points deducted, another 3 strikes and 10 points and so on.

Guess what - everyone drove perfectly for those two rounds.

Now, take the ref away and what happens - I'll let you decide that one.... :bored:

You've said it all there..! Back in the day, we used to have a chief Marshall doing the same thing..always worked..
IMO it's down to club rules and running the meetings strictly...seems hard at first but is appreciated after time..
The "referee on the rostrum" used to be a BRCA requirement at Nationals..does that still apply.?

[mattr]

Try an auto trials competition.
Like they have in 1:1. (The stuff with cones, parking spaces, reverse bits and such like)

They might call it something else now.

[qatmix]

At our club, if you bash into cars you dont go up into the better driver heats, no matter how fast you are, where as drivers who are smooth and keep out of trouble do move up into the better heats.

This makes the guys and girls at our club drive well.

We also have loan cars that are smooth and slow, many of the newcomers use these before they buy a car so they do see the benefit of smooth lines etc, most usually then buy a car with a fast brushless, but gear it down.

Personally I think technology is better now than its ever been, cheap and reliable. Our club is very busy now with everyone racing 1/10 onroad and their are a lot of great drivers coming through the ranks, and importantly lots of good young drivers.

The one thing I would like is manufacturers making a RTR car have a club std electrics set-up. 17.5 blinky is popular in the UK and US so if you bought a RTR with that set-up it would be great.

[bedsrcmcc]

The one thing I would like is manufacturers making a RTR car have a club std electrics set-up. 17.5 blinky is popular in the UK and US so if you bought a RTR with that set-up it would be great.

Now that would be a great solution :) :thumbsup:

[bedsrcmcc]

Try an auto trials competition.
Like they have in 1:1. (The stuff with cones, parking spaces, reverse bits and such like)

They might call it something else now.


That takes me back to my early days of RC racing. The club I raced at would always run auto tests at the end of the night, the quickest time (not always by the fastest driver) would score top points and after several weeks or months we'd award a trophy for the best driver :)

In those days I was doing it with a Tamiya Subaru Brat and my fellow RC racers had the likes of Holiday Buggies, Rough Riders and Sand Scorchers - that dates me, especially as we had them the first time they were released :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Might just try that idea...

[DCM]

Technology isn't the issue here, we are ALL here to race, some (a lot) don't understand that a little slower=faster and you have to educate them. Yes the cars are faster these days, but also more robust and reliable and duration is much better.

Instead of blaming tech you need to look at why people want to race.

[Si Coe]

The thing is that in 1/10th off road there are RTR cars pre-supplied with club spec electrics. US club spec that is ie 13.5t non-boosted which is actually a problem. Its plenty quick enough for a new racer, but most ditch them almost immediately they can afford something faster.

This is the normal pattern of things. In 25 years I've only really seen 1 controlled racing class that was anything more than a 1 club curiosity (like your 1/12th truck is now) or a very short term fad (like stock Slash). That one class was Mardaves and thats really only because the whole point of the class was to be cheap.

However it is true that we face a dilemma with increasing quicker RTR cars meaning new drivers turn up with some very fast equipment. Its always going to be an uphill struggle to convince people to spend more money on something slower!

Perhaps the issue is that our racing hasn't moved with the changing technology. Maybe we need to consider longer races, with more drivers, on larger tracks. 20 drivers, 10 mins and a track more 1/8th sized.

[bedsrcmcc]

Perhaps the issue is that our racing hasn't moved with the changing technology. Maybe we need to consider longer races, with more drivers, on larger tracks. 20 drivers, 10 mins and a track more 1/8th sized.

That's an interesting take on this topic although of course outdoor off-road is a very different beast to indoor hall racing on carpet where often smaller venues like ours have tighter tracks and less space.

BTW, I love ya sig :) I might the run the show but still marshal - you shouldn't need to worry about the computer once it's started - me see a cheap excuse :woot:

[bedsrcmcc]

Technology isn't the issue here, we are ALL here to race, some (a lot) don't understand that a little slower=faster and you have to educate them. Yes the cars are faster these days, but also more robust and reliable and duration is much better.

Instead of blaming tech you need to look at why people want to race.

I've been 'educating' for a long time but I sometimes feel it falls on deaf ears :bored:

BTW, thanks for the posts fellow racers, some interesting thoughts and counter arguments :woot: I certainly don't have all the answers but it is interesting to gauge what others feel, so thanks for the interaction :thumbsup:

[DCM]

Don't forget, 'back in the day' you had a limiting factor.... duration, this would stop most putting in silly motors etc. Funnily, we had a similar issue to you with touring cars, as the technology moved from NiMH's to LiPO and brushed to brushless, cars went faster but at the time we had a large indoor venue, when we had to switch to a smaller one, some of us older drivers went to slower motors, the ones who didn't were moaning about crashing. Sometimes I think the class you race is just as responsible for the issue as is the person.

We run in an area where, at the time was a mix of on-road and off-road, trying to convince someone to invest in a 13.5 for their tc was almost impossible, as it would never get used in their buggy.

As for beginners, we either suggest an RTR buggy or a GT12 (as they are almost indestructible)

[bedsrcmcc]

As for beginners, we either suggest a GT12 (as they are almost indestructible)

Agreed they are great little cars, although try telling the poor driver who gets punted off all the time that they are indestructible - yes they are but the other drivers then feel that they can hit anyone or anything :cry:

We did come up a great idea to resolve drivers using the track edging to slow their cars down, and that was to fix 6in nails to the outer perimeter edge of the track :woot::woot:

Probably not a sensible idea though :confused:

[DCM]

That is the joy of closed wheel racing, you can bash and not get penalised by having to be marshalled....

[SlowOne]

That's another good thought - we make our club track tight and twisty because the skilled drivers want a challenge. That same challenge proves difficult for the new driver learning their craft, so we tell them to go slower.

What would happen if we made the tracks easier? Then if the drivers were 'too fast' they would do less damage, but still find great lines and corner accuracy rewarded by better lap scores over the race distance.

It might make race night less challenging for the more experienced, but if the track is the same for everyone, the best drivers will still be faster. Perhaps a simpler track every other week would be beneficial to the new drivers? Just a thought...

Bottom line here; we are trying to overcome human nature. That, as a challenge, is like trying to solve world hunger. WE have to keep trying, but it is a moving target! :)

[Pacman]

I've raced in silver can racing at Hinckley. It worked on the touring cars to some degree, but was too slow for the off road cars during the summer. However in either you soon find out that there is no such thing as a level playing field, i.e. not all silver can motors are the same.

Personally I think when you are young, you just want to have the fastest car out their, regardless of whether you can drive it or not. It's only natural for a racer to want something fast otherwise we wouldn't race at all. And it only takes one person to get something faster for everyone to follow. At my local track most people now race TM2 or other similar 2wd buggies. Rather than spend more money I just take an old 4wd buggy along instead!

Also as many racers these days race at more than one club, then having equipment they can use at more than one club is import.

BUT, I still think there are ways to motivate people to race in a standard class or use cheaper slow equipment:

1. Before introducing a new stock class, see if you can get buy in from the fastest regular drivers. If you get them taking it up from the start, then the rest will follow.

2. Handicap racing: In pre-war racing at places like Brooklands, cars with less HP would be given a number of laps head start. The faster cars had to catch them up and pass to win the races. In RC cars you literally do this.

3. Points based system based on number of motor turns and current limit of the speedo. Bonus points are given to cars with lower standard equipment, and work out the winner at the end of the meeting. Effectively this is what is going to be done at the Iconic A1 revival meeting where cars using period equipment will get bonus points.

[Lee24h]

Scott come to kettering mcc one friday we run 13.5t turbo or slower and its not banger racing its quite a small track and we run 10th tourers
No matter what class you run theres always going to be someone who needs to be 'faster' than everyone else
With regards to the 27t days people zapped cans, turned the comm down, turned the can round and ran new brushes every meeting
A standard out the packet motor wasnt particuly quick
Scott a ref is a good idea but thats not club racing
Put all the bashers in their own heats they will learn
And the end of the day
We race jumped up very expensive toy cars on a big play mat!

[beale]

Hmm club cars with siver cans or similar everyone gets 5 laps or so to look at consistency, instead of 3-4 normal heats it's 1 pre lim with the Club car then 2 - 3 with your own ( point being if your quicker with an RTR silver can then your own is too fast or setup wrong)

[RoyBoy]

I have to say I think this is the best and most interesting thread I have ever read, well done guys, especially bedsrcmcc. Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

[bedsrcmcc]

Scott come to kettering mcc one friday we run 13.5t turbo or slower and its not banger racing its quite a small track and we run 10th tourers

I used to race at Kettering, it was the Xray that got me back into RC racing once the family had grown up a bit :)

We started racing Touring Cars at Bromham when I setup that club and we raced 13.5 Brushless with Turbo/Boost on a polished floor with rally block tyres the control tyre. We used to have some great fun in those days and yes we had drivers of all standards...

The big issue I have, is not drivers who are learning their race craft, it's those who simply don't want to listen :cry: and think that crashing is fun :cry: :cry:

We've tried to make it clear as 'sensitively' as we can that if you want to go banger racing, there are clubs that cater for that. BEDSRCMCC is NOT one of those clubs.

Interestingly, we stopped racing TCs at our club as we saw a marked increase in the speed of them and people were crashing out too much, so I still stand by my initial thoughts that the tech has made a quantum leap forward in the past 2-3 years and to be fair, driving standards are a little behind those in some cases.

What's more interesting is that the BRCA had a real chance last month to help put in place rules that would help but it appears from what I heard on Friday that they've fudged the rules in GT12 without having the conviction to enforce a slower motor for the Production Cup :confused:

So that leaves clubs who want to try and slow things down out in the cold (this is just about GT12 racing, not off-road or Touring Cars). There were some interesting ideas put forward but it seems it failed to get past through. Seems the BRCA needs to rethink what the aim of the organisation is - is it about supporting the hobby of RC racing and nurturing new blood, or is it about supporting top flight RC racing... Maybe a topic for another thread one day :woot:

Going back to the issue of driver skill and tech for a moment, I had an epiphany this week...

All our attempts at trying to improve driver skill has always focussed on the negative - penalty points for bad driving, making people go slower, having a moan all the time bad driving, emails to try and get engagement on the topic etc etc.

But now my epiphany is that positive encouragement, ie the carrot rather than the stick' might be the way forward. So we are going to trial a system in the club's next Championship whereby all drivers have the opportunity of voting each week for the driver they felt drove the best (based upon their ability). That driver in question will be rewarded a sizeable amount of points that could see them move up the leader board very quickly. It will be interesting to see how the carrot works over the stick :thumbsup:

[bedsrcmcc]

I have to say I think this is the best and most interesting thread I have ever read, well done guys, especially bedsrcmcc. Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the nod :thumbsup:

I never claim to have all the answers, but I do enjoy a debate :)

Thanks too goes to all the contributors of this thread, as RoyBoy says, it's been really interesting to read what others think about this topic and I'm sure it's one that will be with us for many years to come and the the bain of anyone who runs/operates clubs...

[bedsrcmcc]

And the end of the day
We race jumped up very expensive toy cars on a big play mat!

I couldn't agree more Lee, and I've said that many a time when things have gotten heated about rules or other issues on track. I like to add the bit that we are only racing for a 5in piece of plastic too :lol:

However, these little toys are not cheap and I'm sure you wouldn't like your's being taken out lap after lap by another driver would you?

[BazzerH]

How about trying to get a bunch of cheap slower electrics and selling them for cost to new drivers. Combined with some nice EOS prizes for most improved drivers, fair play rewards, most consistent driver in lower class etc. Carrot over stick kind of thing.

I can imagine the difficulties you'd having though. It only takes a few bad apples and pretty soon everyones driving standards go south when the red mist descends.

[mattr]

Ban the marshals from running, 10 seconds to marshal a crashed car will focus the mind.

[bedsrcmcc]

Ban the marshals from running, 10 seconds to marshal a crashed car will focus the mind.

I jokingly said last week that we should race 1 heat without marshals, making the drivers marshal their own cars, but of course that would be dangerous for everyone :woot: :cry:

However, I really like the 'Do not run' policy for marshalling, might put that one to the club 's committee to see what they think - like you said, if we marshal slowly that might help focus drivers minds, though I do think the carrot idea I've come up with might help - I'll keep you posted with the results when the Championship begins in 2 weeks...

[mark christopher]

What's more interesting is that the BRCA had a real chance last month to help put in place rules that would help but it appears from what I heard on Friday that they've fudged the rules in GT12 without having the conviction to enforce a slower motor for the Production Cup :confused:

So that leaves clubs who want to try and slow things down out in the cold (this is just about GT12 racing, not off-road or Touring Cars). There were some interesting ideas put forward but it seems it failed to get past through. Seems the BRCA needs to rethink what the aim of the organisation is - is it about supporting the hobby of RC racing and nurturing new blood, or is it about supporting top flight RC racing... Maybe a topic for another thread one day :woot:



Scott im going to pull you up here. as my post 14 on this topic!!

firstly the BRCA 12th section did not miss a trick, the BRCA do NOT make the rules, the racers present at the egm make them after discussion and votes. the BRCA then enforce them.
there IS also a slower class and as post 14 production cup is now 17.5, a slower motor class, while super cup remain 13.5. you also need to be aware that the 17.5 became a class due to a club introducing it at their club, which proved popular and grew. something your club can do the ONLY part of the rules your club need to follow from the brca hand book is general rules, any class you race can have rules set by the club, not the brca.

[SlowOne]

Mr. Christopher beat me to it. Forgive my frustration when people say things without checking their facts first...

BRCA 12th Section members have grasped this nettle and sorted it - ProductionCup is now the same chassis as SuperCup but with a 17.5 motor. This was in response to the recommendation from people who race at clubs to give a slower car, not a cheaper car.

The point raised was that it was speed that was the requirement, not having a chassis with very tight restrictions that didn't handle that well - having ProductionCup as a kit-standard class with no leeway on parts and no diff.

This has been answered by having ProductionCup as a kit chassis with mods and a diff allowed. This means clubs can adopt this class and drivers wanting to progress can g to SuperCup by just changing their motor.

As Mark says, clubs can also pick and choose the BRCA Construction rules why want to adopt and then add their own variations. I hope that answers the point. Your drivers can all run in ProductionCup with a change of motor which you could phase in as I suggested in an earlier post. HTH :)

[bedsrcmcc]

Scott im going to pull you up here. as my post 14 on this topic!!

firstly the BRCA 12th section did not miss a trick, the BRCA do NOT make the rules, the racers present at the egm make them after discussion and votes. the BRCA then enforce them.
there IS also a slower class and as post 14 production cup is now 17.5, a slower motor class, while super cup remain 13.5. you also need to be aware that the 17.5 became a class due to a club introducing it at their club, which proved popular and grew. something your club can do the ONLY part of the rules your club need to follow from the brca hand book is general rules, any class you race can have rules set by the club, not the brca.

To be fair, I was informed by a club member who races at regional and national events that the 17.5 rule didn't get through. If I'm to be corrected on this then that's great news and I will do everything within my power to have this passed at the clubs AGM this autumn to slow cars down. Giving drivers 12 months to change I feel is more than enough time. :thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

To be fair, I was informed by a club member who races at regional and national events that the 17.5 rule didn't get through. If I'm to be corrected on this then that's great news and I will do everything within my power to have this passed at the clubs AGM this autumn to slow cars down. Giving drivers 12 months to change I feel is more than enough time. :thumbsup:

Why not just read the rules on the sections brca site? Obviously your source is out of touch.... Or not willing to promote the class and rules, a shame as this is how I'll feeling starts.

Not if your being correct, you are being corrected....