Some Suggestions to possibly increase Sunday Racing Numbers

[spybot]

Why not do something different on a Sunday,

Here are a few suggestions from me :-

01. An old school meeting (Straight Carpet racing - No jumps)

02. A team Le Mans Style endurance Meeting (Say teams of 4 Drivers race for 3 hrs) this could be done in conjunction with another club.

03. Make Sundays into a month (or some other agreed time period) where you get points based on your finishing position ( I assume the computer system can do a full print-out of the drivers times) & at the end of the time period small trophies are awarded to the top 3 drivers or maybe a larger Trophy is awarded for the top driver then start the tournament again. Basing the points system upon a drivers position in the overall times of a meeting means everyone stands a chance. Not all points would go to 'A' Final Drivers a 'C' Final driver who does more laps in a faster time than say an 'A' Finalist would get more points.

Feel free to add some suggestions of your own & maybe even get some of them implemented. When my father & I originally set up Mansfield Car Racing we set it up to be the best club in the country & I think that was achieved. Lets make Mansfield special again, it can be done but it needs more than the same people running things it needs a little bit of help from all members. It's your club guys lets try and make it the envy of all the clubs in the region.

:thumbsup:

[Mike Nash]

I'm up for old school (being old) before anybody else says it

It may also be an idea to spend one weekend not racing and repairing / building new ramps and such like as some are looking tired and well past there best

I know materials are not cheep but I'm sure as a club we could pull together and sort something

[bkelsall]

To be honest, and most people know my views on this, but a lot could be gained from having a practice session on Sundays. The two main things that will boost competitiveness in this hobby are:

1. Opportunity to try different settings to sort out what works for you.
2. Time on the sticks.

Both of these are not in abundance at a race meet, even one as relaxed as Mansfield on a Weds night. With practice, 4 rounds and a final you are looking at 1/2 hour driving time tops, and it's always difficult to test settings back to back in a race environment.

Me, I'd happily pay my fees to have a full afternoon of being able to run, stop, tinker and be look what it does to the lap time. Without having to worry about losing time due to tyres going off, getting baulked on a run etc.

When i originally changed from electric to IC back in 1992....my driving improved massively, and people like Gareth will remember that I often used to spend an afternoon at Tibshelf just working on set up (2-3 hours track time). Knowing how a car works and what works for you is worth more than the majority of go faster aftermarket parts out there.

Just a thought.

[dicky14]

Practice time works for me Ben, i like to try different things and see what does and doesnt work, getting an extra 10th per lap makes a massive difference.:thumbsup:
Also last wednesday night, what the hell happened to the grip levels??????, even brand new tyres didn't work, it was ok in practice but was shocking for the rest of the night. What type of additive are the foam boys using? maybe this is whats causing the grip to be epicly low, just a thought.:thumbdown:

[spybot]

The additive I bought for my foams Rich is exactly the same as the additive used on Off-Road Tyres - NOSRAM Traction Additive Carpet. But late time I raced 'nites' told me no additive so I ran without it. I found running Contact RC SE foams allowed me to run reasonably ok better than I raced on Mini Pins. So the solution to inconsistent grip levels would seem to be a simple one, get the carpet shampooed clean then ban all additives.

:thumbsup:

[200sx]

I use either lrp carpet or sxt 3.0.

Don't assume foams have more grip because they don't. Case in point, cut staggers are WAY too much for rear foams. The truth is those that have tried them have expected them to work straight away, its not going to happen. I've persisted, as have others, due to lower running costs (3+ months on a single set) no other reason.

I ve worked hard on the setup to get good performance from foams. My 22 is set up like no other car I've ever seen, 4.5 degrees antisquat, huge difference in front and rear roll centres, 4 degree camber etc. I ran out of adjustments on the yoke and thats why I moved on.

There's only so much abuse the carpet can take from mini pins. Additive prevents the fibres from getting airborne. The warmer weather is softening the pins allowing them to 'fold'. Blue compound might work better.

Broxtowe don't have problems with a mix of foam and rubber but then again pins are prohibited.

[dicky14]

Totally agree there Ian, the setup on venoms last year was radically different to pins and the only reason I wont use foams is, we don't race them in any other championship and they would trash the tm2 drive train very quickly, maybe the carpet is on its last legs (hope not) or have the archery club done something to the carpet????
By the way Ian your car was uncatchable last week, so the foams obviously suit your driving style/setup:thumbsup:

[nites]

I don't find foams much faster than mini pins, whether they be new or scrubbed in pins. What i do get from using foams is a car that always slides but is very consistent and controllable. I do agree with 200sx though that new cut staggers have way more bite than the foams but again the grip levels on these changes race by race.
I find the foams more consistent than rubber which as you say dicky changes throughout the night's racing.
I'm hoping the drivetrain wear ends up costing less than a new pair of rears a week and new fronts every other week but will wait and see.

[200sx]

With the money im saving I could afford a new complete buggy every 5 months and still be quids in! The only (marginal) accelerated wear is with the dogbones and diff outdrives. All of £40 every 6 months.

[dicky14]

40 quid every 6 months i could live with, mine would be 65 quid every 6weeks for centre cup, centre drive shaft diff out drives and drive shafts, so not good. Its cheaper buying tyres every week for me:thumbsup:

[Muzzie]

I think it may be worth hiring a professional carpet cleaner to improve the pile. We can chat about it on Wed. yes – he said pile he he he

[rossiracer]

I for one have saved money running foams but cannot see the point in me racing any more if we have to race in a different class has there is only a few of us use foams I don't want to stop racing at Mansfield but that's what might have to happen

[dicky14]

ha ha ha, you said "pile" lol. :woot:. pro carpet cleaning sounds good or see if we can get another carpet maybe? Mark you cant stop racing at mansfield dude, remember last year when we ran a venoms only class? that worked ok.
As for club numbers, maybe we should start doing a club championship like broxstowe does, Different classes etc. So maybe now is a good time to get together as a club as put some ideas forward to increase numbers and make the club even better than it is.:confused:
I'm not there tomorrow night because of some bull crap happening at work but if anything is decided please let me know:thumbsup:

[dicky14]

Going back to what spybot put at the beggining of this thread, Sundays once a month and have it as a finals/trophy meeting, points gathered every wednesday and the sunday has last round of qualifying and 3 leg finals, what are the thoughts on that?

[deano43]

Don't know what the problem on Wednesday was It reet bad but then Sunday it was fine again I had plenty of grip, just one of those x files moments maybe . But we do need more people on Sundays I've been most of the time when in between cars is the only time I have not made it but ask Gareth on Wednesday about the numbers we need to keep it running and we have been missing a few regulars through one thing or another but as the saying goes USE IT OR LOSE IT

[mutoid]

Totally agree there Ian, the setup on venoms last year was radically different to pins and the only reason I wont use foams is, we don't race them in any other championship and they would trash the tm2 drive train very quickly, maybe the carpet is on its last legs (hope not) or have the archery club done something to the carpet????
By the way Ian your car was uncatchable last week, so the foams obviously suit your driving style/setup:thumbsup:

Rich on what grounds can you base foams trashing your drive-train more than other tyres. Best I heard was Gareth saying it wore his xray's down quick but how could this be so?
If the grip level they produce is so greater than say mini-pins then its understandable, and for a week or so when Gareth used them they were as there saying goes "awesome" until he got beat then opted back to new mini-pins and was a second a lap faster. I have tried both back to back and mini-pins give you way more punch but at the cost of ever changing grip levels due to wear.
With foams the grip is not so good at start of the night as the carpet fluff is more obundant, but the level of consistency barely changes.
My V2 drive train wear is normal I would say with the centre pin onto the slipper wearing down only.
The additive is not altering the grip levels ,just look at 12th scale carpets etc its more likely all the fluff from new mini-pins ripping it up if anything.
I clearly cannot see much point in forcing us into our own class as min-pins clearly have an advantage over foams or everyone would be on them , oh wait that's right Mr.Mkeag won last week for the first time , so lets make them race on their own.
I for one won't be turning up until sense is seen , numbers haven't been great just lately so just alienating some of us is clearly going to make it better.

Steve Ellis

[200sx]

The increase in drive train wear on my buggy is because the foams are harder than mini pins. The shock of hitting a rumble at speed is sent straight to the out drives. The 'give' in mini pins/spikes dampens this. It's certainly not grip related.

The fluff was really bad on wednesday evening. The worst I've seen it. It was wrapping around one of my driveshaft and a clump was collecting on the rear bumper each race. The average power of the buggies at Mansfield has increased over the last year, it seems new pins are needed to keep them under control. It goes against the 'slow is smooth, smooth is fast' ethos.

Steve's experience with pins vs foams is spot on. Foams are slower but more consistent and I for one can't justify the cost of replacing tyres every week to remain competitive.

Maybe limiting motors to 13.5 or 10.5 blinky is the way to go to ensure longevity of the carpet?

[mutoid]

I find your reason quite shakey there Ian, i would assume the foam to have as much give as a mini-pin would ,as to make an impact onto a tyre big enough to induce excessive force to wear pins attached to wishbones and drive trains via diffs etc would be so much that a mini pin would rim out , thus creating a harder impact than the foam clad.These forces are soaked up via your shocks etc your axles and drives dont move any further that cause wear this way.
You can only argue wear rates down to traction and braking , and as mini-pins clearly have more of this when newish , they should obviously wear your gear down faster than foams.
As mini-pins balloon out under excessive throttle and wheel slip the contact area becomes less , thus compounding lack of grip even more.
You just dont get that with foams ,just a constantish level grip.It may not be the quickest but i find its easily the most user and driver friendly tyre.
Maybe we should make it the only tyre we use and there will maybe less excuses and blaming it on using bald pins etc.
And maybe the track will stop fluffing up so much ,thats all your carpet pile wearing down.

[200sx]

Sorry Steve I don't think I was clear.

It's not the outright force that does it but rather the harder foams work the suspension harder at a minute/micro level leading to more movement between the dogbone and out drives. A little tamiya anti wear grease makes a big difference. Again, it's not grip related, I think it's referred to as dogbone plunge. In every other part of the drivetrain the wear rate is reduced.

Ostracising racers for choosing to run a different tyre isnt going to help the club's attendance.

[rossiracer]

I dont no if my parts have worn any quicker since using foams I only run them as a money saving alternative I use the same addative that I would put on my mini pin tyres so I dont no ware this is going to end up but broxtowe dont run mini pins to save the carpet im not sayingto follow the other clubs but to run a round with only 2/3 drivers in seems a bit pointless to me so u either allow us to run with everyone else or ban them can it be put to a vote with everyone racing so there is a fare outcome to this matter

[bkelsall]

Gents,

While I am always up for a conspiracy theory and the discovery of little elves that spread "anti-grip" between meetings, can we take a look at this objectively.

A model car club carpet does not deteriorate at the rate the level of traction dropped over the course of one week. And I very much doubt that additive on tyres is causing "carpet whisps/fibres" to remain on the carpet, reducing grip.

My feeling is that the level of traction we find on a week to week basis is more to do with how much muck and dust gets trodden into the carpet between meetings. (Archery runs Tuesday and Thursday...Anybody seeing a pattern here?) Rather than people running additive. This might also explain why we see a sharp drop in grip levels over the winter when the archery club moves 100% indoor when previously we have thought it may be something to do with the ambient temperature.

As for foams vs. mini pins and cut staggers. I'm going to run foams as I get a bit hacked off with fresh rubber of some form week in, week out. I'll let you know if i go quicker on them. :D

[rossiracer]

As for the other points raised the club needs to spend some money on improving ramps not just trying to fix what we have there is enough people keep offering there services but no materials to build with as for the trophys etc thats a great idea look at the turnout at west bridgeford well attended meeting maybe we could do something on those lines just a thought

[200sx]

Worth mentioning my 22 shows no sign of wear whatsoever, it was my yoke that developed flat spots on the dogbone pin and grooves in the out drives. Maybe brand related?

Mark, I'm pretty handy with a saw. I'd love to build some sensible ramps/whoops but raw materials aren't cheap.

Ben, glad to hear you're giving foams a try.

[gaz1318]

wow just had a look on oople foams what a topic.
my pennys worth.

i have run on foams at mansfield for about 3 weeks or 5 meetings my opinion is foam tyres are definitely faster on carpet know matter what class you run them on(tourer buggys mardave 12th ) could you imagine turning up to broxtowe and trying to run foam tyres on tourers and minis i dont think so. if people want to run foam tyres that if absolutely fine with me but there will be a separate class put.

as for sunday i think we have given it enough time for numbers to pick up we have been losing money on sundays pretty much since the 3rd sunday we opened this year and that in turn has a knock on effect with the money we take in wednesdays.
we cant run championships on the software at the track if someone wants to do it manually by all means but i have enough on with running the meetings and doing my hobby so crack on with it by all means.
thank you
the end

[spybot]

I'm finding this debate on tires is quite amusing because when I last raced a few months ago I think I'm right in saying that I brought back the using of foams simply because it was what I was used to back in my Procat days & I was derided for it now others have turned to foams. I have found that the best compound to use is the Contact RC 1/8th Stock Car Donut SE (which co-incidentally the cheapest at £4 a pair) this is a soft compound which I found to my liking, it is also good on tarmac & in the wet. Unfortunately for the past few months I haven't been able to race due to my partner being very ill & me being her full-time carer but am hopeful of returning on the 27th on which date I think I'll be throwing yet another tire option into the mix as I've gone right back into my early 12th scale days when we used to race on polished wooded floors.

In any case can I point out that I started this post for ideas to increase numbers & only myself, Rich & Mike Nash have put forward suggestions. Anyone else got any ideas on things the club could try out to make Mansfield stand out from other clubs & be the must goto club.

:thumbsup:

[200sx]

It was the release of contactrc jy45 and jy35 donuts that ignited the running of foams at Mansfield.

I understand the argument with foams versus slicks/treaded rubber in on road but this is foams versus pins, quite different.

[gaz1318]

deleted

[rossiracer]

To stop the argument/discussion why dont we take. The carpet up and run on the polished floor then the use of foams will not be a issue and I would imagine the ware on the tyres would be minimal

[gaz1318]

deleted

[rossiracer]

Do u not think it unfare to the heat after the foam heat as there will be 2/3 drivers to marshall there cars and then people will start moaning that the marshalls are not quick enough

[gaz1318]

deleted

[mutoid]

If foams were trouncing pins everyweek i can see the need for classes, fact is they are slightly slower end of story, so i cant see where the complaints from pin users has come from to warrant a change.
Please enlighten us Gaz:)

[Mike Nash]

As this thread has now turned into debate over foams and class I will also have my 2 pence worth

As a fairly new driver who would normally be in the lower classes I can see how some of the a class drivers may have concerns I can only say I will personally try and keep out your way. As for how competitive the race will be is hard to say for example if it was me and say Gareth in the same race I can safely say I will come last each time hand he would come first. This does not bother me but for those drivers who are more competitive I could see they will soon get fed up with this also like wise some of the lower class driver could get fed up with having there ass whipped each time.
The main reason for me running foams is down to cost like previously said drive train wear is minimal on my dex210 were as rubbers last 6 races

This is only my 2 pence worth as stated I am happy just to race weather it be in a foam class or a mixed tyre race .

But more to the point of the thread lets get the numbers back on Sundays

[rossiracer]

Mike I dont think the numbers will pick up on a sunday through summer but in winter when there is no chance of running outdoors the numbers will increase I no this does not help u and ur son out and some other people with children but I dont have the answers to get more people to come

[gaz1318]

deleted

[Mike Nash]

As this thread has now turned into debate over foams and class I will also have my 2 pence worth

As a fairly new driver who would normally be in the lower classes I can see how some of the a class drivers may have concerns I can only say I will personally try and keep out your way. As for how competitive the race will be is hard to say for example if it was me and say Gareth in the same race I can safely say I will come last each time hand he would come first. This does not bother me but for those drivers who are more competitive I could see they will soon get fed up with this also like wise some of the lower class driver could get fed up with having there ass whipped each time.
The main reason for me running foams is down to cost like previously said drive train wear is minimal on my dex210 were as rubbers last 6 races

This is only my 2 pence worth as stated I am happy just to race weather it be in a foam class or a mixed tyre race .

But more to the point of the thread lets get the numbers back on Sundays

[spybot]

Surely there actually needs to be 2 extra classes for Foam Users because it seems 2WD & 4WD users don't like racing against each other so you'd end up with 2WD Pin & 4WD Pin Users and 2WD Foam & 4WD Foam Users & what happens if a driver starts the meeting on Foams but feels on that day Pins would be better & swaps after 2 Round do they then have to swap races?. Them maybe Stick & Steering Wheel Transmitter Users need to be in separate classes. Give me a break, I know it's a fun sport/hobby but at the end of the day a race is to find out who is the best & how can anyone claim to be the best if they are not getting challenged by other drivers with a different specification of car. All of the different car specs have their pluses & minuses, the challenge is over coming other drivers, so at a club level I believe all classes should be raced together with the best rising to the 'A' Finals giving less skillful drivers a target to aim at & not having races with 1 or 2 drivers in (thus removing the marshaling problem 'rossiracer' pointed out.

That would possibly increase numbers to both Sundays & Wednesdays because the club would get a reputation of somewhere you can really put your driving skills to the test.

:thumbsup:

[mutoid]

I am just a bit miffed about it all to be honest. If foams are such a threat to the win at all cost brigade then why arent they used by them. Alleged quicker parts wear would almost be cancelled out by not buying a set of rears each week even though this wouldnt be an issue if you can stay near the top.
The argument is flawed and to me it seems like sour grapes just because Ian won the A on them.
What will be next different classes for mini-pin tread depth.....

[gaz1318]

deleted i have done now.

[spybot]

:D:wub:thumbsup::woot:

[dicky14]

I am just a bit miffed about it all to be honest. If foams are such a threat to the win at all cost brigade then why arent they used by them. Alleged quicker parts wear would almost be cancelled out by not buying a set of rears each week even though this wouldnt be an issue if you can stay near the top.
The argument is flawed and to me it seems like sour grapes just because Ian won the A on them.
What will be next different classes for mini-pin tread depth.....

Why would there be sour grapes about ian winning last wednesday? Well done to him i say good clean consistant runs, maybe its not about tyres/drivers etc. as Ben put it, archery, dirt in the carpet? As an earlier post of mine states, why run foams when all of the major races we attend only allow pins(bridgeford) or mini spikes(regionals) that way you get to know how your car works and performs on said tyres. Just a thought. And if i win, all good, if i dont, must try harder, im not a win at all costs kind of guy, i race for the competition and fun element of it:thumbsup:

[dicky14]

Just read the bottom of your post Steve, that is laughable mate, I find new pins very quick but very edgy, worn pins are more consistant, so to come out with that reply. PLEASE!!!!!! LOL

[200sx]

It seems part of the problem is Mansfield is seen as 'practise night' for races elsewhere.

What will it take to elevate the club to full on 'race night' status in it's own right?

[mutoid]

Rich ,we dont use mini spikes indoor do we to help with regional setups.
We could use mini pins for about 8months to get our cars setup for about 6 bridgeford buggy blitz races and then have to alter it all as the grip levels differ.
I didnt want this to get into a mass debate(err that just sounds so wrong lol)even though its been quite fun,i just wanted a valid reason for the decision to re-class the tyre,from our view it just appeared very knee jerk reactionary after last wednesday.
If carpet has in fact been tampered/soiled etc then surely our foam tyres would be affected more.
I am so much on the defensive with this issue until straight and proven facts about the differences can be presented.

[gaz1318]

this as not come out of the blue it has been on the cards for about 6 weeks odd when i first tryed them . know 1 point has turned the decision to make a foam class apppear you are very welcome ask anyone at the track.
i told adam about a month ago that a foam class was coming.
all this and it could turn out that numbers just dont add up and a couple of weeks later its back to normal.

awesome.

[mutoid]

Best thing we can do and is how it should be done anyway is have a vote on it tonight before we start Gareth please.

[deano43]

This is a easy one most clubs will separate classes if there is a advantage or a disadvantage but me personally I would want a foam class to see how I fair against other drivers on them tyres, how do you know who is doing what I unless you study everyone's times in different heats for them people running foams to see if your faster or slower. It's about making thing neutral for cars so it's driver skill that prevails not a advantage or a disadvantage from things you add or take away from a car and I understand the cost element but there is about 6 people running this class now so there is enough to make a separate heat for them selfs to pit there wits against each other and Gareth did mention this could happen weeks ago but at the end of the day like every club it's a committee decision like taking away Sundays which I am not happy about but fully understand why is the decision was made, the brca set the rules in our hobby and they would separate foams if they were involved and remember it's only toy cars so it's not worth getting to upset about it Gareth is a fair person and doesn't make decisions lightly he try's to please everyone were he can and does a great job running Mansfield rc Nuffi sed

[200sx]

I think the issue here is the minority running the foams every week haven't asked to be put in a separate heat, the decision is being made by the majority that run pins.

The drivers running venoms last year asked for a separate heat.

I honestly believe the chassis design is of more importance than the foams/pins. I know im quicker with the 22 than I was with the bmax2, same electrics same tyres. In turn I was faster on pins with the yoke.

Ian, I haven't read what I would consider emotive posts so don't think anyone is upset, just wanting an honest discussion with some evidence on why foams should run separate. Maybe the emotion is from people who haven't taken the time to contribute? I don't know what's discussed in the main pit area between rounds.

Gareth mentioned he was in the middle (not a nice place) which suggests an anti-foam group exists. Where's their input?

[JLakin]

Who's actually on this "commitee" I keep reading about?

[deano43]

This should be discussed at the club me thinks see you all there

[Muzzie]

Who's actually on this "commitee" I keep reading about?

That would be me, John Jones and Gareth.

Sorry I couldn't make tonight I had to stay late at work. I really wanted to talk about this and sort it out.Hopefully Gareth hasn't been hammered to much LOL...

I've been reading all the post and thought I'd would chip in.

Both type of tyres have Pros and Cons and everyone's points are valid.

The mini pins are faster than foams but in my opinion only for two rounds when new. So by the end of the night foam will have more grip than used set of pins, so you may have an advantage in the final. Foams are cheaper to run and don't wear the carpet as much, which is good.

I did seen the wear on Rich's TM2 after he ran the venoms and it was bad, so I understand why some (including me) may be reluctant to use them.

So the question is, do foams give you an advantage over the mini pins?

The committee did discuss the use of foam over a month ago and did agree that if they became popular we would run them in the own heat. Not because people may starting beating others, but for the opposite reason. We thought that if they were slower than pins and if people wanted to run them due to cost issues they may have had a dis-advantage, so it would only fair for them to run in their own heat.

Everyone will have their own opinion to whether there is an advantage or not but I do agree with Gareth that if there are enough people running them, then they should run together. However this is a club and it wouldn't be here if everyone stop going because they weren't happy. I think the fairest way to solve this, unless its not already been sorted tonight, I will talk to Gareth and John and put a vote on oople where everyone can have their say. When the result are in we will run as per the majorities wishes.

Obviously I've not seen Gareth or John so I will post a 'vote' if they agree. Hopefully this will bring the issue to a close and the thread can get back on track. :thumbsup:

[john333]

I haven't been able to race recently due to work. Here's how I see it...its a historical fact that foam tyre cars and rubber tyre cars go in a different heat class, that's what has happened since the early 80's when I started racing.

The only sticking point is the fact we are a small club and both classes will be pretty dull due to few racers in both types of heat.

When I called in last night it seemed to me pretty equal in numbers (9 in each class?)

I'll be honest I don't give a flying fart what tyres other people are running on their cars on a club night at least, and in my opinion there are good and bad points with both.

im going to close this thread because i can't be doing with keyboard warriors, and this subject needs to be discussed face to face, and voted on etc without the bitching that's starting to appear on here. (I've been asked to close it by another couple of people too)