LiPo packs and overall weight .....

[RogerM]

A post on the MK GP thread about weights got me thinking about this so I thought I'd start this poll to see what the world at large thought .......



So what do you think about forcing LiPo runners to add at least the amount of weight that would be required to make the combined weight of the Lipo pack and it's ballast say the same as a pack of 3700s????
(purely from the point that would be the minimum cell likely to be powering a quick brushless equuiped car)

Based on that post Cosie tells me his S2 with LiPo in weighs in at 1525g (still loads above the BRCA minimum 2wd weight so no probs there) and I stated that my RB5 with 4500s in will be nearer 1700g .......

Now to save the brain cells (I know some are running low on those as S.A.D. takes it's toll) that is 11.5% extra my poor motor has to accelerate out of each and every high grip / low speed corner and punch across the jumps too.
Now I could make that up by driving 11.6% better (but I'm not going to count on that too much!!!).

So here's the point (finally you all cry) .......

If Cosie's Lipo pack weighs in at 150g less than a pack of 3700s and my 4500s tipped the scales at 25g (guessed difference) over the 3700s BUT the rules stated that he had to make up the difference in ballast on / under the LiPo pack IN ADDITION to any weight on there for handling reasons it would level the playing field again .....

That would leave me with some choices to close the gap, dremel, run 3700s, buy loads of light weight bits-and-bobs, go and have a cup of tea and not worry about it!

Does that make sense (as far as the question is concerend)??????

I know there would still be those that say what about the 0.4V nominal voltage increase etc. but lets be honest ..... for anything much quicker than a spec the extra voltage isn't going to matter a jot. In fact most modern NiMh cells run about 1.23v anyway so that's 7.4V!!!

[Alfonzo]

What is it about 'the whole Lipo thing' you don't like? :confused:

[Smartalec]

I'd say that if you choose to run NIMH in your car and I choose to run lipo in mine, as long as mine is still above the weight limit then that's fine. I honestly can't see why anyone would want to run NIMH when the chances are the availability of good quality packs will be in short supply as they have been for a while and also the lifespan of the packs is terrible. Almost everyone I know has had problems with cells going down in packs over this last season and the problem will only get worse as more and more cell distributors go over to lipo....... of course, this is just my opinion :)

[Belsten]

To be honest I would say that this would be extremely hard to police and would not be viable. Different cells from different manufacturers weigh different amounts. You could be faced with the prospect of setting the weight limit using GP 3700's but what if someone were to run Intellect 3700's ?Scrutineers would also be faced with the prospect of asking every racer/mechanic to remove their cells from their car to weigh them along with weighing the car & cells. It can get frantic during scrutineering as is

I fully understand your point though

[burgie]

as long as the "lipo"car is the minimum weight, there is no problem.

Use Lipo's or use Ni-Mih, the choice is yours - if you don't want to, don't try to suggest others should compensate for your whims. The Lipo bashing is growing a tad tiresome now.

[bigred5765]

everyone will have to run to minimum weight at nationals any way, so wont make any difference, lipos are ace, and like garlic bread they are the feature,i think a more sensible poll or question would have been why wouldn't you run lipos,and the way they deliver power is miles better than nimh,we were running 6.5 last week were before lipo it was almost always a 5.5,less heat less stress less wear,

[Smartalec]

as long as the "lipo"car is the minimum weight, there is no problem.

Use Lipo's or use Ni-Mih, the choice is yours - if you don't want to, don't try to suggest others should compensate for your whims. The Lipo bashing is growing a tad tiresome now.
Well said...... new technology is good for everyone I think. I remember people knocking 2.4ghz and then the same with brushless. :)

[Smartalec]

everyone will have to run to minimum weight at nationals any way, so wont make any difference, lipos are ace, and like garlic bread they are the feature,i think a more sensible poll or question would have been why wouldn't you run lipos,and the way they deliver power is miles better than nimh,we were running 6.5 last week were before lipo it was almost always a 5.5,less heat less stress less wear,
.... garlic bread is the FEATURE :p

[Gnarly Old Dog]

I'm with Alex - so long as the car weighs at or above the BRCA minimum limits, then they comply to the prevailing regulations - be they either LiPo or NiMh powered.

There are (as I'm sure we'll all learn soon enough) plenty of situations where the known but comparatively heavy configuration of a NiMh car will be easier and more forgiving to drive than its LiPo counterparts.

Come the 1st national in 2009, if the conditions get slick or bumpy during the day, I'm sure there will be plenty of newly LiPo converted runners who'll be busy adding weight to their cars just to get the handling balance back to something more normal that they're more used to - and lets not forget that 8mins of practice isn't a great deal of track time to start trying to learn how a new car or weight distribution really works.

Besides, I've got no idea where I can put 170g's worth of ballast in my 4WD:woot:

[James]

My personal experience:

My trakpower packs weigh roughly 4 sub c's so when i first ran my X6i put two infront of the lipo to simulate 6 x sub c's - the car wasn't that great, but was superb with the LIPO alone..I run no ballast. There are few folks that disagree but my last result at worksop showed that it suits me personaly..

I have a lipo cat and a nimh one, they both feel pretty similar. The LIPO perhaps feels better indoors as its a bit more snappy, all i've done to it is add 15g on the rhs to even up weight distribution L to R..

I'm not really worried that i'll have to bring the cars up to weight for Nats, i can just play about to find where it goes best.

[RogerM]

What is it about 'the whole Lipo thing' you don't like? :confused:

Valid question .....

I personally don't like the way they deliver their power, but that's my own opinion based on what I like. I plan on staying with NiMh for 09.

The main issue for me is the one this poll is based on .... how to level the mass based issues between NiMh and LiPo racers. More mass is bad in both the breaking and acceleration zones ... the two places where most time can be found on track!!!

The other thing that worries me a little is the abusive charging / handling issues. Somebody will do something stupid with LiPo and set the damn thing on fire, worse case taking a sports hall with it on a club night. I know that the serverity is no greater than a NiMh blowing up (some would say more confined so maybe even a little better) however little Jonny is unlikely to have IB4200s or any of the other suspect cells and also unlikely to be trying to charge them at 1,000,000 amps. What I am trying to say is those that are at the most risk from blowing up a NiMh are unlikely to actually achieve it.

That said, if all the shops are responsible and explain why it is a good idea to always charge in a quality sack, not abuse the cells and only provide quality equipment then I can not honestly see a problem with LiPo safety.
The problem will come when they filter down to the mail order catalogues, Argos etc. or even those local model shops often staffed by people who can barely grunt their name let alone provide good quality advice to a noob.
It's not the experienced racers and quality race shops that worry me with LiPo, it's little Jonny who shops at "Neandertal Models"!!!!

[frogger]

I'm with you Roger, lipo's are voodoo magic and should be banned completely, just like fireworks and pixies. They contain non earth-like materials that are way too complex for humans to understand and besides they are the wrong shape, I mean what's up with these square edged flat batteries? They just look weird. :confused: And a linear power curve!? That's simply ridiculous. :yawn:

Couple that with the absolute stupidity of staying cool while charging, it just doesn't compute. There are so many issues to consider, weird power delivery, reduced weight, being able to charge them and re-use them many times in a day and all that. It will change this sport forever and things will get totally out of control freaky. What's next? Batteries that don't need charging in cars that don't break? What will we do in between races? Will we actually have to talk to the people next to us and be all friendly like :eh?:



:thumbsup: lipo's rule dude, get with the program.

[RogerM]

The Lipo bashing is growing a tad tiresome now.

I'm not LiPo bashing not at all, just throwing an idea out there that's all!!!

In gerneral response ......

The power delivery thing first .... I want less not more ..... that's what I meant, personal choice though.


The weight issue is really aimed at those that are on tight budgets and planned on reusing there 08 cells in 09. A new charger and a pack or 2 of LiPos might be more than the budget can stretch to!
If they feel that they are at a big disadvantage before they even start they may not go to the race meetings in the first palce. The last thing we can afford to do as a sport is turn people off. Afterall the entry fee of these people is at least as important to the club holding the meeting as that of a world champ ... in fact these are the sort of people who probably race at that club every week and thus might be considered more imprtant than a roaming superstar!!

BigRed ...... garlic bread might be a meal feature but the future ... I think not ;)



(I know Super_Dan will be along in a while ..... did I mention starting a debate??? lol)

[RogerM]

Batteries that don't need charging in cars that don't break? What will we do in between races? Will we actually have to talk to the people next to us and be all friendly like :eh?:



:thumbsup: lipo's rule dude, get with the program.


If BigRed is right and garlic bread becomes the norm do you really want close contact with your fellow racers????? :woot:


Why did I know people would see this as LiPo bashing ..... go back to my original post and find the bit where I say LiPos themselves are a bad thing ..... it's not there.

I have nothing against people running Lipo .. nothing at all. :p


Discussion is a good thing people ........

[Belsten]

cheesy garlic bread for sure :wub

I dont necessarily agree with the budget side of things. You can buy a trackpower saddle pack I believe for £45 new and you could run all day on the 1 pack. You would struggle to buy 2 budget packs of nimhs for that, especially assembled with bars connectors etc

[Smartalec]

Personally, I think lipo's are BETTER for us normal folk and level the playing field. I don't mind being beaten by anyone who drives better than me (and that's a lot of people), what I do hate is being beaten by people with access to superior equipment. Anyone who races, and that includes Friday night drivers on a budget or superstars, knows that you have to buy batteries/motors etc. With lipo's you can get away with a couple easy and the price tag is no worse than a decent pack of NIMH. Coupled with that to keep the NIMH from going off you have to have a superduper equalizer/cell nurser and never ever breathe on the things. ........ Put the biggest capacity lipo you can in your car and you'll never get anywhere near to dumping so the lipo will stay in top condition. Get rid of all the expensive charging/discharging/looking after stuff and spend the money on a couple of packs of lipo's ......... as Lion-O said (almost), it's the future :thumbsup:

[rcracer]

cheesy garlic bread for sure :wub

I dont necessarily agree with the budget side of things. You can buy a trackpower saddle pack I believe for £45 new and you could run all day on the 1 pack. You would struggle to buy 2 budget packs of nimhs for that, especially assembled with bars connectors etc

And you couldnt keep recharging the 2 packs of nimhs allday ;)

[mark christopher]

as long as the "lipo"car is the minimum weight, there is no problem.

Use Lipo's or use Ni-Mih, the choice is yours - if you don't want to, don't try to suggest others should compensate for your whims. The Lipo bashing is growing a tad tiresome now.


what he says!!

where is the poll choice " if they over the min weight its ok to run either"


or rog why not take a cell out of all your packs and run 5 cell and make your car lighter, then add a faster motor?

[sly]

I'm not LiPo bashing not at all, just throwing an idea out there that's all!!!

In gerneral response ......

The power delivery thing first .... I want less not more ..... that's what I meant, personal choice though.


The weight issue is really aimed at those that are on tight budgets and planned on reusing there 08 cells in 09. A new charger and a pack or 2 of LiPos might be more than the budget can stretch to!
If they feel that they are at a big disadvantage before they even start they may not go to the race meetings in the first palce. The last thing we can afford to do as a sport is turn people off. Afterall the entry fee of these people is at least as important to the club holding the meeting as that of a world champ ... in fact these are the sort of people who probably race at that club every week and thus might be considered more imprtant than a roaming superstar!!

BigRed ...... garlic bread might be a meal feature but the future ... I think not ;)



(I know Super_Dan will be along in a while ..... did I mention starting a debate??? lol)

During the summer i ran my B4 with lipos at 1405grams race ready, it had better handling for me small tweaks to my setup, REDUCED tire wear, saving pounds on said tire and the power delivery was controlled by my thumb and speedo.
If your just Quote 'I'm not LiPo bashing not at all, just throwing an idea out there that's all!!!' End Quote
your proberly to late to make a difference. i spent a total of £44 on lipos in the last year and used them up to 4 times in one day. and are just as good on the track as the day i first ran them, excluding some marks on the hard case.
AS for a fire hazard, there are lipo sacks for about a tenner or a kitchen fire blanket.

I can see that your p**s*d off cos you will only be running your kyosho cars, fare play to that i ran a lazer 07 and 08, served me well, but i suspect your displeasure is because the new FS Lazer is saddles and the current saddle packs are highly possible the wrong size, thus you having a dig, bash, winge, moan, etc etc about lipos.

Have you every seen or heard of a mobile phone set itself on fire, as they are Lithium???

[mark christopher]

double post

[niggs98]

And you couldnt keep recharging the 2 packs of nimhs allday ;)

you could but 2 packs of nimhs would struggle to do a whole season.

rodger as for power delivery i find the lipo more consistent over a 5 min run than shop bought or even team nimhs which makes it easier for me to get my pace right round the track. i personally objected to lipo for the simple fact that u have to modify most cars to fit them, but having used them i honestly feel its worth the hassle of making them fit

[spud31]

Gents

You may or may not agree but there seems to have been a vogue to race 1/8th offroad over the last few years.
I think lipo and brushless will redress the balance back to electric classes just like it has in TC, i raced my B4 last sunday for first time in 3 or so years, and was so much fun again, no constant maintaince and a TP 3600 will do at least 2 heats without recharging, 25mins practise how can this not bring people back its now more accessable than it ever has been.
On the debate on weight i know with the TC the car was awerful without it due to balance issues so i imagine we will be the same.

[rcracer]

you could but 2 packs of nimhs would struggle to do a whole season.



Yes but would you trust rogers little jonny cooking 2 packs of cells at 7 amps allday :p

[Chris Doughty]

A post on the MK GP thread about weights got me thinking about this so I thought I'd start this poll to see what the world at large thought .......



So what do you think about forcing LiPo runners to add at least the amount of weight that would be required to make the combined weight of the Lipo pack and it's ballast say the same as a pack of 3700s????
(purely from the point that would be the minimum cell likely to be powering a quick brushless equuiped car)

Based on that post Cosie tells me his S2 with LiPo in weighs in at 1525g (still loads above the BRCA minimum 2wd weight so no probs there) and I stated that my RB5 with 4500s in will be nearer 1700g .......

Now to save the brain cells (I know some are running low on those as S.A.D. takes it's toll) that is 11.5% extra my poor motor has to accelerate out of each and every high grip / low speed corner and punch across the jumps too.
Now I could make that up by driving 11.6% better (but I'm not going to count on that too much!!!).

So here's the point (finally you all cry) .......

If Cosie's Lipo pack weighs in at 150g less than a pack of 3700s and my 4500s tipped the scales at 25g (guessed difference) over the 3700s BUT the rules stated that he had to make up the difference in ballast on / under the LiPo pack IN ADDITION to any weight on there for handling reasons it would level the playing field again .....

That would leave me with some choices to close the gap, dremel, run 3700s, buy loads of light weight bits-and-bobs, go and have a cup of tea and not worry about it!

Does that make sense (as far as the question is concerend)??????

I know there would still be those that say what about the 0.4V nominal voltage increase etc. but lets be honest ..... for anything much quicker than a spec the extra voltage isn't going to matter a jot. In fact most modern NiMh cells run about 1.23v anyway so that's 7.4V!!!

If you are that worried about getting yourself a super-light car run 5 cells and a 4.5 motor.

maybe you are forgetting that this is off-road and that sometimes a bit of weight in the car is a good thing, calms the car down, slows down its reactions and helps you get an error free run

[c0sie]

Alot of valid points raised, especially the garlic bread one.

Personally I love LiPo's, Ive never had or seen any problems with them and in MY opinion most of the horro stories you hear are 'a mates mates mothers son-in-laws LiPo went bang' and nothing closer to home.

There are rumours that I have heard, and I in no way associate myself with these rumours!, that the TC section have found people over charging and going onto the grid at 8.7V.....people charging on NiMh settings.....or so the rumour goes o.O
No doubt there are ways to police the SAFE use of LiPo's and no doubt PW with all his experience as Chairman and EB blokey will be looking into every possible angle.

I think LiPo is the future. I saw a video from one of your 'up North' indoor meetings afew days ago where an IB blew up indoors during the 2WD final, yet ive never seen a race video where someone gets their face blown off by a LiPo at a meeting.

Yes, we've all see the videos of people deliberatly over charging LiPos to make them go bang for the fear factor...but under normal sensible use? Nada.

[c0sie]

Also, the fact that the LiPo does not drop off at all under load is just amazing! To drive LiPo after years of NiMh's is just a different world. No more banging it out of a corner and finding that its dropped down and bogged :D

[Alfonzo]

I almost don't dare post this as it all gets sooo tedious, but here goes anyway..

Regarding safety - I personally saw some NiMh explode. Twas very very nasty indeed.

Prediction: NiMh won't even be an option in 12 months time.

[Bungleaio]

As far as I'm concerned as long as cars are above the minimum weight limit I'm not fussed how heavy other peoples cars are.


Lots of things that made sense


You're called Smart Alec, for a reason aren't you. I'm completely with you, I bet in a couple of years ago we'll all wonder why we used nmih.

[c0sie]

I bet you NiMh's stay around in certain classes for a while yet.

Its allll about the money..... :/

[bigred5765]

i think you'll find that roger runs a 4.5 in 4wd any way and cant see the problem,am i right roger??

[bigred5765]

I bet you NiMh's stay around in certain classes for a while yet.

Its allll about the money..... :/

you can buy lipos as cheap as nimh.

[Belsten]

I personally see it going the same way as brushless

On my return to racing, I was running brushed but having seen the light, moved to brushless pretty quickly and havent looked back

Having said that, I will be running nimh next season as thats what I have relatively recently bought. LIPO all the way once they need replacing though :thumbsup:

[c0sie]

you can buy lipos as cheap as nimh.

I dont think you understood my point the way I intended it Matty lol

Matched NiMh's x lots of packs per season = lots of profit...*etc*cough*etc*

[Gnarly Old Dog]

I bet you NiMh's stay around in certain classes for a while yet.

Not if they don't keep equalising them, keeping a storage charge in them when not in use and only charging them when they're cold they won't:woot:

Seriously though for a mo. I've just gotten my head round them new fangled NiMh things (which are still far more temperamental than the good ole 1400SCRs) but having run LiPo at 3 club meetings in the past week alone - I've gotta say that they make it easier to go racing because it drastically cuts down my pre-race prep time and my boss never liked me charging my IBs on my desk at work:thumbsup:

[bigred5765]

we ran one pack at bury indoors last week, ran the same one pack all day in 2wd with a 6.5 lrp sintered in a x6, was ace took around 1100mah top up the pack for the next round and never got them warm all day,the 6,5 was a little to quick to be honest a 7.5 would have been a little easier to drive,and as far as safety issues super glue is twice as dangerous, just ask the guy that got it in his eye, when he spun the back wheels up on his car,oops we even did two runs without topping up.

[Answer-RC-Pete]

A little distraction from the topic but surely if when Lipos become the standard the 1/10th side of the hobby wins the drivers back from 1/8th side and you get to do 10min finals... Surely thats worth it.

Im with spud - I hadnt raced electric for years and come last sunday at Bury with 1 pack of 4000mah Lipos and a brsuhless it was just soooo easy. No skiming, no messing, no re peaking cells...

[Alfonzo]

So when do we get to race 8 or 10 minute heats? Would it work? I guess it limits the number of rounds you'd get and/or number of people racing. Having said that, running a meeting with 10 minute heats would not be twice as long as a meeting running 5 minute heats.

[Answer-RC-Pete]

10min finals rather than heats. I fully agree longer heats would cause problems in terms of planning a meeting.
RallyX generally is 5min heats with 10, 20, 30min or longer finals, increasing in order D Final - C - B - A being the longest..

[Alfonzo]

10 min finals make sense. I like it.

[RogerM]

i think you'll find that roger runs a 4.5 in 4wd any way and cant see the problem,am i right roger??

Couldn't be more wrong mate ..... running a Novak 6.5L ..... seriously considering an 8.5 or maybe even a 15x3 brushed for the 2wd on NiMh cells!!!

I have a used once 4.5R (in a TC) if anybody wants it .... lol


What I am most interested in is the fact that most people have instantly goen on the defensive with the assumption that I am trying to say the LiPo revolution is a bad thing ..... I've not said anything of the sort!!!

I just like to get people thinking and talking that is all.

All I have asked is what do people think about reducing the weight benefit of the LiPo runners to even out the playing field a little whilst NiMh cells are still in peoples race kit.

My own 4wd is a stick pack chassis and to be honest would be nearly perfectly balanced side to side and front and back with a 3200 LiPo in place so I'd rather not add weight (170g side to side inbalance with E4500s).
I have absolutely no intention of going to the saddle pack FS even in NiMh format.

As Mr Doughty has pointed out a little bit of mass around the middle can be a very good thing when getting down and dirty in the rough :p (Why I've had nice steak for dinner not a salad). I once spent loads of time and money trying to get a Losi XX-CR down to the weight limit only to find it made it much worse to drive .... I was young and foolish (now old and foolish ;) )


I am finding people's responses to this thread very interesting!!!

[c0sie]

I think alot of people believe that a lighter car will equate to faster laps, but in offroad id imagine that isnt wholey true?

Personally I think LiPo is the future, and that within time NiMh's will be so old hat that no one will bother with them....however until such a time its only fair that each car shares the same weight limit?

In all honesty Cragg, Maifield, Pidge would still kick nearly all our butts if they were running 3300 NiCad's to our 4900 LiPo's lol

[RogerM]

So who are the 5 other people who also said "Yes, of course they should"?

[mark christopher]

So who are the 5 other people who also said "Yes, of course they should"?
so you have done a poll and dont know how to use it

click the number of votes to reveal who vote what

[Chrislong]

Lipo is lighter, if we need to add lead to get to minimum BRCA weight then there is no issue, we just do it. Some Lipo users may choose to lead up beyond that to suit them, thats choice, choice is good.

Car with Nimh tends to be far heavier than BRCA minimum, but some cars aren't. Thats life.

If you wanted Lipo to have to be weighted up to a Nimh Car, then thats way above BRCA Minimum and it won't happen as a rule, so heres a new concept for you Roger...... you ought to have had this discussion 6 months ago, proposed a revised BRCA weight for the 2008 AGM, then attended it. Its the way things are done. I would guess it wouldn;t be passed as our weights limits are consistent with Efra and we want them to continue to match.

Roger, if you want to try a pack of Lipo for a meeting at Worksop then I'll lend you one & will even take care of charging it for you.

Chris

[Chrislong]

I bet you'll find those who clicked the top option didn't understand the question. Except you Roger.

[Adam Skelding]

The packs themselves don't need to be ballasted. Just the cars.
The question is a touch ambiguous. I think I may have clicked the wrong poll, but I know what I meant. :blush:

The rules are out there for everyone to follow. The minimum mass rule should still stand. It then provides a level playing field on basic length, width, height and mass, to make sure we are all racing the same 'scale' of car.

Most cars out there at the moment are way over the minimum limit in 4wd. It's then down to the owner to either get their car to minimum mass or back to the old mass that they were used to.

I looking forward to running LiPo for the first time at York this weekend. To find out what the fuss is about. I'm not sure which way to go with adding mass, but I plan on throwing it down and giving it full stick from the off!:thumbsup:

[c0sie]

Guys, give Rog a break.

I didnt know you could find out who selected what in each poll option either...

The poll question is valid in my opinion, whether Rog likes or dislikes LiPo is not the point..

Let the discussion roll and the BS stop.

[Edit]: However, following on from the point Adam made about the ambiguous wording, I would have chosen 'balance to the chassis' rather than 'Yes!'

[Wraggy]

but I plan on throwing it down and giving it full stick from the off!:thumbsup:

no change there then Adam !! :woot::woot::woot:

[mark christopher]

Guys, give Rog a break ffs!

I didnt know you could find out who selected what in each poll option - bite me.

The poll question is valid in my opinion, whether Rog likes or dislikes LiPo is not the point..

Let the discussion roll and the BS stop cos it gets boring after a while.

[Edit]: However, following on from the point Adam made about the ambiguous wording, I would have chosen 'balance to the chassis' rather than 'Yes!'
ok so where is his choice of run cars to current brca weight (mass for adam ;)) limits

[mark christopher]

The packs themselves don't need to be ballasted. Just the cars.
The question is a touch ambiguous. I think I may have clicked the wrong poll, but I know what I meant. :blush:

The rules are out there for everyone to follow. The minimum mass rule should still stand. It then provides a level playing field on basic length, width, height and mass, to make sure we are all racing the same 'scale' of car.

Most cars out there at the moment are way over the minimum limit in 4wd. It's then down to the owner to either get their car to minimum mass or back to the old mass that they were used to.

I looking forward to running LiPo for the first time at York this weekend. To find out what the fuss is about. I'm not sure which way to go with adding mass, but I plan on throwing it down and giving it full stick from the off!:thumbsup:
adam im not your sort of level driver (well i can match your full stick, but thats all :D) all i did to my d4 was to addd
a strip of lead under the rear prop shaft, (also helps locate the packs) seems to work for me

[RogerM]

ok so where is his choice of run cars to current brca weight (mass for adam ;)) limits

Second option mate ..... "No, let them run light"

I admit the wording was a touch vague and the tone some what light hearted but that was the intention of the post! A light hearted discussion from which there would be no consequence!!


Chris (Long)

thanks for the offer of the loan of a pack to try, much appreciated. I won't be taking you up on the offer due to not doing any of the Worksop rounds (over 2.5 hours travelling each way for me).
I have run a borrowed LiPo in my own RB5, both with and without a 150g ballast plate under the pack so have, admittedly limited, experience of them. I really don't like the power delivery (then again I am still not 100% sold on brushless motors power delivery either). I personally prefer a mild brushed motor in my 2wd, something like a 14x3 BRM "geared tup" to quote Mr Ward himself.
Before somebody asks I always used to run 12x2 or 13x2 in 4wd and 14x3 or 15x3 in 2wd (last time I ran electric the top cells were 3300s).
All personal preference.


As for the whole propose to the BRCA and attend the AGM thing I would of if I really cared hugely ...... As I said before, this was just meant to be a light hearted debate to gauge opinions ..... nothing more than that!!!

[Chris Doughty]

reading between the lines Roger, what you want is everyone to have a heavy car that you have to put a lot of maintenance into, a motor and battery combo that starts out punchy and after about 3 minutes starts to loose punch and almosts dumps at 5:20 ?? :p :thumbsup:

[RogerM]

reading between the lines Roger, what you want is everyone to have a heavy car that you have to put a lot of maintenance into, a motor and battery combo that starts out punchy and after about 3 minutes starts to loose punch and almosts dumps at 5:20 ?? :p :thumbsup:


Sounds good to me mate!!!!! LOL :woot::thumbsup:


In all seriousness I can really see the advantages of LiPo on the ease of running front. I love that about brushless motors, just need to find the right one for me.


As I said, the reason for this poll is to see what people thought about the idea, nothing more!

[Chris Doughty]

the way I see it, we have BRCA minimum weight limits in place, that very few people are bothered about even getting close to, why is that going to change when we put a different shape battery in the car.

if you did find yourself a good LiPo and brushless combo you would have the same power through the whole run and you would not have to constantly adjust your driving style during the run as you loose a bit of punch or your brakes go a bit soft as your brushed motor overheats and the brushes burn up...

[sly]

reading between the lines Roger, what you want is everyone to have a heavy car that you have to put a lot of maintenance into, a motor and battery combo that starts out punchy and after about 3 minutes starts to loose punch and almosts dumps at 5:20 ?? :p :thumbsup:

Ill add to you post,

He would like to ask everyone to slow down and give him a chance of racing with people so they do not to beat him proberly every race. And hold our hobby back for moving forward (lipo, brushless, safety, driving pleasure and the rest of the world) and making it less accessible for new racers to enjoy track time.

I rememeber having to weight my car up with 2400/3000mah nimh to make the min weight at BRCA events some time back, so what is the difference now?

Racing to me is a social and fun day out, so the more time on track the better, more time to relax and catch up with my mates the better, less time having to skim/clean/check a brushed motor the better.

I`m bewildered at the point your trying to make!!!

[Tom3012]

The point about lipos "filtering" down into little jonny's hands... Havent they done that already? i bought a little helicopter the other day (great fun!) thats lipo powered?

Mobile phones, same kind of thing... (anyone remember nokia doing a massive recall on a batch of their batteries as they were likely to burst into flames :woot:)

Im all for lipo, finally i can save money on batteries!

[mark christopher]

Second option mate ..... "No, let them run light"

I admit the wording was a touch vague and the tone some what light hearted but that was the intention of the post! A light hearted discussion from which there would be no consequence!!


Chris (Long)

thanks for the offer of the loan of a pack to try, much appreciated. I won't be taking you up on the offer due to not doing any of the Worksop rounds (over 2.5 hours travelling each way for me).
I have run a borrowed LiPo in my own RB5, both with and without a 150g ballast plate under the pack so have, admittedly limited, experience of them. I really don't like the power delivery (then again I am still not 100% sold on brushless motors power delivery either). I personally prefer a mild brushed motor in my 2wd, something like a 14x3 BRM "geared tup" to quote Mr Ward himself.
Before somebody asks I always used to run 12x2 or 13x2 in 4wd and 14x3 or 15x3 in 2wd (last time I ran electric the top cells were 3300s).
All personal preference.


As for the whole propose to the BRCA and attend the AGM thing I would of if I really cared hugely ...... As I said before, this was just meant to be a light hearted debate to gauge opinions ..... nothing more than that!!!
i voted that one but it read to me no weight limit, but was nearest to my thoughts.

rog i run a nosram 7.5 in my b4 and its ace, so smooth, huge power band and good top end and punch

[Chrislong]

Roger if you are coming to any events where I am, I don't mind lending a Lipo, whereever it is mate.

I run brushless, and for Lipo I have motored down by 2 winds, the cars are as quick. But like mentioned the Lipo means that no power fade, no problem in the pits - what I really like is no soldering, no more battery jigs, no more equalising (granted there is balance charging but thats of no effort).

If the rules were made so the current weights were lifted 100g to suit Nimhs more, then id have no issue with weighting up to suit. As it is I still have to weight up slightly for the rules, but again, I don't mind. I expect some Nimh cars to be as light as the current weight limits, although I know the majority won't be. I may find a heavier car is more suitable for me, if so I'll weight it up beyond the weight limit - its all trial and error.

Chris

[super__dan]

Rog lol I’m here now. Can’t really be arsed to reply to a lot of it but you must admit it does sound like a whine that if you’re on Nimhs this year you’re at a massive disadvantage due to weight, something most of us do not believe is true. I’d also say that for all kinds of reasons playing fields are never level and I’d consider any possible advantage (or disadvantage) to be a relatively small one when you consider it could be negated by buying a lipo and charger (if someone felt that put out) which is very achievable for less than £100.

Also to say in the minimal testing I’ve done so far with Lipo, I don’t understand what you mean by their power delivery, it’s nothing motoring down doesn’t fix surely? I’m running a Novak 8.5R motor at Worksop mostly in 2wd which is quality, VERY smooth indeed. I have to admit when I get one I’ll be going to a 7.5L motor for a little more top end (but identical bottom end) which I imagine will then be a fit and forget motor in the same way my 6.5L has become fit and forget in the 4wd since going to Lipo.

This is going off point slightly but I really can’t say enough about how much I enjoy Lipo and brushless as a package, from the point of view of how much more social racing is now due to extra time. Even at Worksop running both cars I have loads of time for general banter with everyone. I must also admit to being an early doors sceptic over both things (borderline Ludite) but am now 100% happy now to admit any initial scepticism was wrong. This is potentially more down to brushless to be fair but Lipo plays it’s part. Twice at York I got a wave of panic thinking I’d not rushed to get cells on and equalising as soon as I got there to be charged for round 1 only to remember I had 2 packs of Lipo charged which I could potentially do all night on without even needing to re-peak.

[RogerM]

You took your time Dan ... LOL

Sorry if it sounded like a whine, was just meant to start a debate nothing more!


You are probably right when you say about motoring down but that is only an option if you have the motors available to do so. What I mean buy this, assuming brushless now, is if your already running a 7.5 and want to motor down then you only have a choice of LRP / Nosram 8.5s or the Losi 8.5 then "Spec" class motors (LRP / Nosram, Speed Passion and Novak).

The other thing that confusses me is people can not state a major advantage of LiPo being cost effectiveness (I am refering to earlier posts not yours Dan') if they then have to buy new kit to work with it.
Simple sums;

LiPo £50ish, charger to suit £50ish, 2 new motors to suit 2x£65 = £230
3 x NiMh packs @ £36 each (based on Stormforce prices, not looked at others) = £108

Now I know that a lot of hardened racers buy new stuff each season so this doesn't apply to them. Also I know people might have to replace a pack or two mid season which would add cost. There are also people out there who are looking forward to the 3rd season on there 3700s and original 1-star motor. The sums above are intended as example only.


Again I feel the need to state that I am not anti-LiPo and just playing devil's advocate to further discussion.

I know that it applies to very few, if any, of the regulars to this site but I do get the feelling sometimes if having a pink fur covered bodyshell was the "next big" thing they wouldn't be able to keep up with the production of fake fur!!


All this has gone a little off topic.

The orginal question was basically do people feel disadvantaged by the fact that LiPo runners could have a relatively large weight advantage to NiMh runners? I think the results so far speak for them selves!!

[bigred5765]

lipos can be bought cheap to Rog, as cheap as £35 a pack, charger is same price £35, and if your not running brushless buy now well, i guess thats your choice,and the lipos will last twice as long as nimh, so cheaper in the long run,

[AmiSMB]

I feel that the rules have been laid down and as long as everyone is above the minimum weight limit that has been set by our governing body then that is fine.

[Crazy L]

Yeah.....what Grant said:p

[mark christopher]

You took your time Dan ... LOL

Sorry if it sounded like a whine, was just meant to start a debate nothing more!


You are probably right when you say about motoring down but that is only an option if you have the motors available to do so. What I mean buy this, assuming brushless now, is if your already running a 7.5 and want to motor down then you only have a choice of LRP / Nosram 8.5s or the Losi 8.5 then "Spec" class motors (LRP / Nosram, Speed Passion and Novak).

The other thing that confusses me is people can not state a major advantage of LiPo being cost effectiveness (I am refering to earlier posts not yours Dan') if they then have to buy new kit to work with it.
Simple sums;

LiPo £50ish, charger to suit £50ish, 2 new motors to suit 2x£65 = £230
3 x NiMh packs @ £36 each (based on Stormforce prices, not looked at others) = £108

Now I know that a lot of hardened racers buy new stuff each season so this doesn't apply to them. Also I know people might have to replace a pack or two mid season which would add cost. There are also people out there who are looking forward to the 3rd season on there 3700s and original 1-star motor. The sums above are intended as example only.


Again I feel the need to state that I am not anti-LiPo and just playing devil's advocate to further discussion.

I know that it applies to very few, if any, of the regulars to this site but I do get the feelling sometimes if having a pink fur covered bodyshell was the "next big" thing they wouldn't be able to keep up with the production of fake fur!!


All this has gone a little off topic.

The orginal question was basically do people feel disadvantaged by the fact that LiPo runners could have a relatively large weight advantage to NiMh runners? I think the results so far speak for them selves!!
rog i used to use nimh, had 7.5 in 2wd and 6.5 in 4wd, i dont think many who run nimh wont have these if brushless, i am NOT a good buggy driver, i have left my motors as is and swapped to lipo, so i dont think its fair to include motors in your costing (as outdoors i dont think many will motor down)

[elvo]

a heavy car that you have to put a lot of maintenance into, a motor and battery combo that starts out punchy and after about 3 minutes starts to loose punch and almosts dumps at 5:20 ??


No, let's all run borderline oversize, explosively powerful cells which become useless after a few cycles. And melt down some motors. Much better!