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View Full Version : lipo saddle packs, a poll to show feelings


mark christopher
10-11-2008, 10:58 AM
PLEASE note you have 2 votes so use one for poll one and two, your second vote for poll 3 and 4
once you have cast your vote (even only choosing one) you will be locked out


hi
after attending the NE winter regional meeting i thought id post this, as there seems talk of many regions dropping the BRCA from regionals. and id like to know what other racers think.

while i understand that we shoud have a form of restriction i feel that a rule may be in place to restrict the growth/ fairness in off road. the mah has raised from 5000 to 5500 the size for saddle packs was kept the same as stick dimensions, trackpowers packs (for example) are 1mm over size if the ends of the heat shrink are removed they give no unfair advantage over current nimh and fit most cars.
So please pick the poll which you feel would be in the best interest of the hobby.



if you would like to explain your reason do so below, please keep this sensible, i dont want any EB or BRCA bashing just a sensible debate to see what racers feelings are

thanks

mark

Glenn Atterton
10-11-2008, 11:14 AM
allow some discression have a 1 or 2mm tolerance to cover comercially available cells

should be allowed for say 2 or 3 years until the current LiPo's in use that are oversize are no longer race worthy for BRCA events and new LiPo's will be in place to meet the specs.

Lee
10-11-2008, 11:21 AM
You really cant have "tolerances" because the manufacturers will just increase the size of the cells to the max, it has been done before and will be done again all in search for a bit more performance.

Whether lipo is allowed at an event or not, i would still attend, it makes no difference to me, rules are rules, you can still have a good time without lipo. :thumbsup:

burgie
10-11-2008, 11:25 AM
I have read the post a couple of times now, and I think I know what you are trying to say.

I would ask the following questions though:-

which of the "many" regions are considering "dropping the BRCA" from the regionals, and what is the point or even meaning of doing that?

Are your concerns over the size of Lipo's based purely upon the fact that it is trakpower cells (given your apparent affiliation to trakpower) that are now deemed too big, or would you be asking the same question if, for example, trakpower cells were allowed and team orion (or any other) cells were illegal?

I personally chose not to run regionals at all last year as I could not run Lipo, and as all my cells are now Lipo, and within the tolerances, there should be no event that I can't race at anymore. Well after April next year anyway.

mark christopher
10-11-2008, 11:36 AM
I have read the post a couple of times now, and I think I know what you are trying to say.

I would ask the following questions though:-

which of the "many" regions are considering "dropping the BRCA" from the regionals, and what is the point or even meaning of doing that?

Are your concerns over the size of Lipo's based purely upon the fact that it is trakpower cells (given your apparent affiliation to trakpower) that are now deemed too big, or would you be asking the same question if, for example, trakpower cells were allowed and team orion (or any other) cells were illegal?

I personally chose not to run regionals at all last year as I could not run Lipo, and as all my cells are now Lipo, and within the tolerances, there should be no event that I can't race at anymore. Well after April next year anyway.

NE have dropped the BRCA from thier regionals winter serries, reason for that is thay can then choose not to follow full BRCA rules and allow lipo, had it been brca there would have been no lipo, and i dare say looking in the pits 50% were running lipo. i have only heard of other regions looking at doing this but, it should not really be happpening..............there obviously doing it to keep racers happy and numbers up.

yes hands up, i have made this poll because of trakpowers situation, however had it been another brand, and been posted by that brands supporter my vote would still be the same.

burgie
10-11-2008, 11:39 AM
That's fair enough then.

But if the regions "drop" the BRCA for the regionals, what is the situation regarding insurance for the events? Are they still covered through BRCA Affiliation?

Northy
10-11-2008, 11:46 AM
In the NE the clubs are effectively each running a large one off meeting, that we just so happen to be stringing together as a series :thumbsup:

Any meeting that a BRCA affiliated club holds is totally covered.

G

Benh
10-11-2008, 12:06 PM
I don't think they are dropping the BRCA. They may be dropping the BRCA's rules as a guide for their series. (I wait to be corrected)

As far as dropping the BRCA, a region would not participate in a BRCA sanctioned event, ie BRCA regionals.

The East of England, a struggling region is seriously considering this. The EoE regional AGM, in the next couple of weeks, should be very interesting.

Swiss
10-11-2008, 12:07 PM
You really cant have "tolerances" because the manufacturers will just increase the size of the cells to the max, it has been done before and will be done again all in search for a bit more performance.

Whether lipo is allowed at an event or not, i would still attend, it makes no difference to me, rules are rules, you can still have a good time without lipo. :thumbsup:

Totally agree with Lee on this one.

I must admit I can't understand anyone that wouldn't want to race because of a ruling.
Personally never had anyproblems with NiMh, mine are over a season old and OK, getting a little tired now but during the slippery conditions of the winter its probably best. Also I only recall seeing a couple of packs go POP!
I believe someone mentioned, (in another thread!) that you could not use a pack of NiMh repeatedly throughout a days racing. At this years Euro's I know a number of Team GB guys that was using one pack that had been modified for 5cell. Not just for one day but 3.
Whether it is NiMh, or LiPo make your choice and have some fun!

Alan
10-11-2008, 12:19 PM
Having done touring cars for years, and last year lipos were allowed I no longer have any usefull nims. All my batteries are now lipo and I don't want to take a step backwards and buy nims again (I wait to get slated for this remark!) to allow me to do the regionals next year which I am seriously thinking about? All my lipos are still in excellent condition.
Theres my thoughts anyway!:)

Alan

RcRob
10-11-2008, 12:24 PM
Also I only recall seeing a couple of packs go POP!

That's cool if it's only a couple, we'll just wait till the majority are going 'pop' till we see it as a problem.

PS, maybe the BRCA should also be 'reccomending' that NiMh's are charged in some kind of safe pouch, as they are the cells that seem to be causing the most problems.

RcRob
10-11-2008, 12:26 PM
oops, double post

frogger
10-11-2008, 12:30 PM
I must admit I can't understand anyone that wouldn't want to race because of a ruling.


I don't even own a charger that can charge NIMHs anymore and have used only lipo's for quite a while now. I only do open one day meetings that allow them. If I could run my car as is with lipo I would actually start doing BRCA sanctioned events. :thumbsup:

I fully support the BRCA allowing a small margin of error to allow for Trakpower and other saddle bricks. The more stuff you allow the simpler it is for people to take part and for the sport to be supported.

Swiss
10-11-2008, 12:47 PM
That's cool if it's only a couple, we'll just wait till the majority are going 'pop' till we see it as a problem.

PS, maybe the BRCA should also be 'reccomending' that NiMh's are charged in some kind of safe pouch, as they are the cells that seem to be causing the most problems.

I agree 1 pack is enough, don't get me wrong, but does beg the question what conditions were these cells being charged at? If, (and I am not saying this is the case) soemone is charging at 8.0A they are probably pushing the boundries a little. Rules aren't there to replace common sense??

Also I am all for LiPo's.. Great to see the hobby moving forward.
One thing that does concern me, is until the units are fully compatible with the chassis Joe Blogg on the street, won't want to be getting his dremel out on Boxing day so his son car run his new car!

frogger
10-11-2008, 12:51 PM
If Joe Bloggs is anything like me he needs very little excuse to use the Dremel :p

Swiss
10-11-2008, 12:59 PM
If Joe Bloggs is anything like me he needs very little excuse to use the Dremel :p

:D fair play.. I like them so much I brought a mains one and battery powered one for when I am out and about!

mark christopher
10-11-2008, 01:06 PM
I agree 1 pack is enough, don't get me wrong, but does beg the question what conditions were these cells being charged at? If, (and I am not saying this is the case) soemone is charging at 8.0A they are probably pushing the boundries a little. Rules aren't there to replace common sense??

Also I am all for LiPo's.. Great to see the hobby moving forward.
One thing that does concern me, is until the units are fully compatible with the chassis Joe Blogg on the street, won't want to be getting his dremel out on Boxing day so his son car run his new car!




how good shops would sell a car and incompatable cells?

how many joe bloggs do actually fit none standard parts?

how many joe bloggs would race at brca meetings let alone be a member?

joe bloggs on the street can fit an 11 volt pack, as he aint bothered what rules are

mark christopher
10-11-2008, 01:08 PM
cheers for the responce guys, keep it up!

mark christopher
10-11-2008, 01:12 PM
I don't think they are dropping the BRCA. They may be dropping the BRCA's rules as a guide for their series. (I wait to be corrected)

As far as dropping the BRCA, a region would not participate in a BRCA sanctioned event, ie BRCA regionals.

The East of England, a struggling region is seriously considering this. The EoE regional AGM, in the next couple of weeks, should be very interesting.
yup there only dropping the brca title, its then not a brca sanctioned event, brca insurance etc is still there, just then rules can be used as that club/series feel fit

RcRob
10-11-2008, 01:13 PM
One thing that does concern me, is until the units are fully compatible with the chassis Joe Blogg on the street, won't want to be getting his dremel out on Boxing day so his son car run his new car!

Did the '4200' generation of cells fit into cars without some minor work? I don't think they did, but nobody cared.

What do you think would be harder for Joe Bloggs, soldering up 6x cells in saddle formation (which requires a soldering iron, battery jig, battery bars, etc) or installing some extended battery posts when he builds the car.

I know which I'd rather be doing...

jcb
10-11-2008, 01:13 PM
As far as dropping the BRCA, a region would not participate in a BRCA sanctioned event, ie BRCA regionals.

The East of England, a struggling region is seriously considering this. The EoE regional AGM, in the next couple of weeks, should be very interesting.

News to me :confused:


Anyway back on topic, I don't understand why people just can't wait for the list to be publicised by the BRCA about what will and won't be legal.

Adam Skelding
10-11-2008, 01:31 PM
This came to me last night while I was thinking about the LiPo situation.
It seems kinda obvious to me, but I am willing to hold my hand out to anyone who spots a hole in my thought.

There were never any dimension size restrictions for any SUB C assembled packs whether they be Stick or Saddle. the only stipulation was down to each cell measuring upto the laid out dimension including tolerances.

So why should there be overall size dimension for LiPo packaging?

Think about a saddle pack of NiMh, there is no ruling on the dimensions including soldering tags, which are an essential part of the packaging for them to work.
The same can be said for stick packs. The cells are soldered together, then heat shrunk again 'for protection' then end capped. There was no limit on the length and or width of the assembled pack.

I see why dimensions are being used to control the size of LiPo and make them easy to 'scrutineer', but surley a bit of common sense should prevail here from the BRCA.

Why don't the BRCA make dimensional rules for Saddle Packs and rules for Stick packs. (Obviously 2 of the dimensions will be the same Width and Height of the case, but the capping Length will be different, for obvious reasons.

This would allow people who have already 'gone' Lipo to use their stuff at future meetings. Keeping the numbers of racers up and the cost down and the people at the BRCA would be seen to have their finger on the pulse and keeping their members both old and new happy with simple regulations that minimise the hassle and cost of changing to a new technology.

Yes I do run Trakpower, but really, should that matter? Someone please try and find a hole in my simple reasoning.:thumbsup:

Chrislong
10-11-2008, 01:50 PM
Adam, im with you on that one. But it could be expanded upon further, why have dimensions for the sealed pack, why not a dimension for the actual cell within the pack? This would be more of an equivalent to the Sub-C rules?

As for Nimh, how many of us saw Ste Pierce have a pack of (my) Nimh cells explode while normal charging yesterday? SMC EnerG 4600's and not only did one blow, but the melted heatshrink meant the next cell shorted and it threw a flame from the cell like a burning gas bottle!!! Which he then put in a Lipo-sack to take outside, and it burnt the sack!!!!

Now we have Lipo, regardless of my loyalties, if the rules meant we still had to run Nimh - well im sorry but im going back to club level racing to run Lipo until Lipo is allowed..... as it happens it is now, and im pleased as both my cars run stick. But I would like for saddles to be allowed, and again regardless of my loyalties to Trakpower, id like for saddles to be allowed so all people have the choice of Lipo without changing chassis - as we all know Trakpower has been the most popular choice of saddles, possibly stick too, a lot of people already have them - and therefore hope some flexibility to see them allowed, afterall they are no different internally to stick packs, so no advantage to be had by them.

I do hold hope in the BRCA, they recognise we all do this sport to enjoy it, and they do represent us the best they can - so will reserve any more thoughts til the list comes out.

Chris

burgie
10-11-2008, 02:16 PM
... Which he then put in a Lipo-sack to take outside, and it burnt the sack!!!!....

That, i think, proves the whole lipo sack theory is something short of being worthwhile in my opinion.

mark christopher
10-11-2008, 02:30 PM
chris did the sack just burn as in scorch or catch fire?

DCM
10-11-2008, 02:40 PM
So in effect, the NE is having a large 'interclub' series, to their own rules, with some use of the BRCA handbook. A regional is a regional, and must be run to BRCA rules for you to qualify for point.

Interclubs are the way to go, and then maybe the EB, when they get a low entry, will realise that the Stick Pack lipo rule is a little daft.

jim76
10-11-2008, 02:47 PM
I've guessing formula ratings can't be issued based on an interclub comp? So everyone would drop? Otherwise it would be the perfect solution.

mark christopher
10-11-2008, 02:49 PM
So in effect, the NE is having a large 'interclub' series, to their own rules, with some use of the BRCA handbook. A regional is a regional, and must be run to BRCA rules for you to qualify for point.

Interclubs are the way to go, and then maybe the EB, when they get a low entry, will realise that the Stick Pack lipo rule is a little daft.
northy can correct me here

i think that the region can still use this as a qualifier for the winter finals, (which are run to brca rules) if it were done outdoors im not sure you would get an F grading

help G please!!

Northy
10-11-2008, 02:53 PM
We are using our indoor series purely as a 'guide' as to who qualifies for the Indoor Finals places that the NE is allocated ;););)

F grades can not be earned indoors, only from an outdoor series. The 2009 NE outdoor Regionals will be run to full BRCA rules.

G

Chrislong
10-11-2008, 02:56 PM
Hi MC, I heard the same - might be in another thread, I can't remember. If the region runs a BRCA regional through the winter then that take precedence, otherwise a series such as this, and if nothing then they use the summer regional series.

Chrislong
10-11-2008, 02:58 PM
chris did the sack just burn as in scorch or catch fire?

It burnt the sack, the sack didn't catch fire - it served it purpose but on Nimhs rather than Lipo's.

Id encourage all to have a Lipo sack, even if you consider Lipo risk to be small, as proven they can protect from many other things if required.

SHY
10-11-2008, 03:10 PM
This came to me last night while I was thinking about the LiPo situation.
It seems kinda obvious to me, but I am willing to hold my hand out to anyone who spots a hole in my thought.

There were never any dimension size restrictions for any SUB C assembled packs whether they be Stick or Saddle. the only stipulation was down to each cell measuring upto the laid out dimension including tolerances.

So why should there be overall size dimension for LiPo packaging?

Think about a saddle pack of NiMh, there is no ruling on the dimensions including soldering tags, which are an essential part of the packaging for them to work.
The same can be said for stick packs. The cells are soldered together, then heat shrunk again 'for protection' then end capped. There was no limit on the length and or width of the assembled pack.

I see why dimensions are being used to control the size of LiPo and make them easy to 'scrutineer', but surley a bit of common sense should prevail here from the BRCA.

Why don't the BRCA make dimensional rules for Saddle Packs and rules for Stick packs. (Obviously 2 of the dimensions will be the same Width and Height of the case, but the capping Length will be different, for obvious reasons.

This would allow people who have already 'gone' Lipo to use their stuff at future meetings. Keeping the numbers of racers up and the cost down and the people at the BRCA would be seen to have their finger on the pulse and keeping their members both old and new happy with simple regulations that minimise the hassle and cost of changing to a new technology.

Yes I do run Trakpower, but really, should that matter? Someone please try and find a hole in my simple reasoning.:thumbsup:

Bloody well said!!! :thumbsup:

bigred5765
10-11-2008, 03:36 PM
Chris did the sack just burn as in scorch or catch fire?

it stopped the flames from coming through the sack, it melted the out side of the sack but did stop it spreading, i haven't seen anything like that before , nor do i want to see it again,:thumbdown: i would use a lipo sack for nimh too if your using them,

Northy
10-11-2008, 03:40 PM
The flame coming out of the bare metal cell looked well cool, it looked like a mini jet engine :thumbsup::thumbsup::woot::woot:

I did get Mia out of the way though until it was outside :(

G

Chequered Flag Racing
10-11-2008, 03:51 PM
it stopped the flames from coming through the sack, it melted the out side of the sack but did stop it spreading, i haven't seen anything like that before , nor do i want to see it again,:thumbdown: i would use a lipo sack for nimh too if your using them,

Transmitters also :woot:

think it may have been Chris Green's that was smoking on his pit table when I returned from watching the 2wd A final.

dan_kitty
10-11-2008, 03:54 PM
next time im charging both a nimh and a lipo at the same time (obiously ,different chargers) im gonna use the pouch for the nimhs, unless i buy 2 pouches.

Lee
10-11-2008, 04:05 PM
I did get Mia out of the way though until it was outside :(

G


To be fair though she shouldn't be left charging cells alone :eh?:

Northy
10-11-2008, 04:10 PM
True brother, true.

G

DCM
10-11-2008, 04:13 PM
from what I hear, Mia does a far better job than the G-Man.... although you shouldn't ask her to sell your cars for you online...... you might miss a buyer :woot:

mark christopher
10-11-2008, 04:18 PM
back on topic please boys and girls:thumbsup:

Bungleaio
10-11-2008, 04:43 PM
I'm not against having to buy new cells to comply with the rules as long as there are some saddles available to race with next season I'm ok with it.

But it is annoying that the cells I have are only very slightly over sized and are therefore illegal, but if no saddles are available I won't be buying Nimh just so I can compete regionally, doing that would be a backwards step, I'd rather wait a year and see what the situation is then.

Swiss
10-11-2008, 07:20 PM
Did the '4200' generation of cells fit into cars without some minor work? I don't think they did, but nobody cared.

What do you think would be harder for Joe Bloggs, soldering up 6x cells in saddle formation (which requires a soldering iron, battery jig, battery bars, etc) or installing some extended battery posts when he builds the car.

I know which I'd rather be doing...

I can't exsclusively say that out of all the models of cars available, that some didn't require work to fit the 4200. I can say that the 2 models I run, neither needed work.

Surely he will have the soldering iron, solder to install the electrics in the car, so the facts of the matter are whether putting the cells together is comparible to modifying the car to fit the LiPo, (I personally think that extending the battery posts is not the case with all cars).

how many joe bloggs would race at brca meetings let alone be a member?

Surely this hobby is about everyone, not just BRCA members.
At some point, Joe Bloggs may be interested in coming a BRCA sanctioned club/regional meeting.

mark christopher
10-11-2008, 07:42 PM
I can't exsclusively say that out of all the models of cars available, that some didn't require work to fit the 4200. I can say that the 2 models I run, neither needed work.

Surely he will have the soldering iron, solder to install the electrics in the car, so the facts of the matter are whether putting the cells together is comparible to modifying the car to fit the LiPo, (I personally think that extending the battery posts is not the case with all cars).

it takes a bigger soldering iron to solder cells proprly than you would use to solder wires

how many joe bloggs would race at brca meetings let alone be a member?

Surely this hobby is about everyone, not just BRCA members.
At some point, Joe Bloggs may be interested in coming a BRCA sanctioned club/regional meeting. then he would have to be a BRCA member!!!Club meetings are not brca sanctioned! a BRCA sanctioned meeting is a meeting run for or by the section
ie off road brca nationals, off road brca regional

if joe goes to those chances are his cells and motors may not be on the EB list anyway if he is a car park basher




posted responce to each bit in bold!

jim76
10-11-2008, 08:07 PM
the only chassis that require saddle lipo's are high level competition 4wd cars. Little jonny basher is not going to spend the money on a B44, lipos and balancing charger, KO universe and servo etc, just to bash.
He will get a tamiya with stick pack and cheap charger, or a nitro rtr.
The only people who will run a competition 4wd are regular club racers or above, and these people will be quite used to modifying cars.

I understand the point the BRCA are making about cells being compatible, but in reality, anyone who is planning on using this stuff will be perfectly used to making minor adjustments, so the argument really doesn't hold much water.

It would be interesting to find the numbers of saddle packs currently in circulation in the UK that are being used by racers, and those that race at BRCA regionals or nationals.

Swiss
10-11-2008, 08:26 PM
Anyway didn't want to get in a long discussion about all the details.

Basically the BRCA do an excellent job and I am sure their decision will be based on what's best for all :)

Swiss
10-11-2008, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Swiss http://www.oople.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177359#post177359)
I can't exsclusively say that out of all the models of cars available, that some didn't require work to fit the 4200. I can say that the 2 models I run, neither needed work.

Surely he will have the soldering iron, solder to install the electrics in the car, so the facts of the matter are whether putting the cells together is comparible to modifying the car to fit the LiPo, (I personally think that extending the battery posts is not the case with all cars).

it takes a bigger soldering iron to solder cells proprly than you would use to solder wires

I don't know many people that have a differant soldering iron for their cells and wiring??????????? In my personal experiance people have one soldering that does everyhting!


how many joe bloggs would race at brca meetings let alone be a member?

Surely this hobby is about everyone, not just BRCA members.
At some point, Joe Bloggs may be interested in coming a BRCA sanctioned club/regional meeting. then he would have to be a BRCA member!!!Club meetings are not brca sanctioned! a BRCA sanctioned meeting is a meeting run for or by the section
ie off road brca nationals, off road brca regional

if joe goes to those chances are his cells and motors may not be on the EB list anyway if he is a car park basher

Their secound car may be more than a car park basher.... So still with relatively little experiance, and with the forethought of not having to purchase more equipment in the future. They may wish to purchase a more 'competative model'

bert digler
10-11-2008, 08:43 PM
i havent really read this in detail but the only thing ive found is the protective casework makes them oversize and not the actual cell so what is the problem do the brca want us to run a lipo that is squeezed into a case or one that is correctly fitted from my experience (helicopters) the flightpower (trakpower) has been by far the safest and best quality lipo on the market so do we run cheap rebadged chinese crap or the safe option:o

boultspeed
10-11-2008, 09:04 PM
Hi Guys

I am just starting out with off road (run on road for years) but dont want to go back to nimhs as I sold chargers dischargers equalisers etc last year and lost a fortune to go to lipo/brushless and would not buy them again as lipo is definately a lot easier.

So I would miss out on regionals & nationals if I had to use cells as it would not just be the price of cells but chargers etc.

I must admit I was shocked when I asked about lipo saddle packs and was told they weren't legal I just presummed that they would be as on road used them (my ignorance showing)

Paul

mole2k
10-11-2008, 09:26 PM
I personally think a grace period of 2-3 years allowing the 1-2mm tolerance which should see people who currently have cells being able to use them for a reasonable amount of time and allow manufacturers such as trakpower to get slightly smaller saddles out to fit within the specifications.

That way imo nobody loses out and I doubt any manufacturers would design new cells oversized for such a short period.

discostu
10-11-2008, 10:48 PM
Ive been racing touring for the last ten years and have decided to get back into off road racing for a couple of reasons the main factor is cost brushless in my opion is one of the best thing to happen to rc cars and the other is lipos ive had three packs of nimh cells go bang in 2007 all new cells at £60 a pop litrealy (£180) in total and its not though misuse before you all jump on that it is purly down to getting maximum performance to keep at the top of the list ive also had brushless motors go bang again to sqeeze every last bit of performance which leads me into the second reason for coming back to off raod racing racing pro stock class in tc and being one of the best in class in the uk winning the carpetwars 3 times and the stcc twice and cant rember how many top ten natinals the problem is maxing every thing to the limit. the point im trying to make as for lipos the tc rules seem to work cap the capasity to 5000mah what does it matter about size there are plenty of options out there if one cell doesn't fit use a diffrent type cos the manufactures will soon change designs to suit the have in tc racing eg (xray 2009 AE tc5 and more) but going back to sub c cell would be very bad news for off road racing we want easy hassel free racing brushless and lipos job done. as for brca sanctuned events not being brca event fo the club is a bad thing from the reason if your a new cummer to the sport you want to find out more about rc cars the first thing you would tend to look up is a guverning body (brca) then you would look at were can i race oh i cant find no brca in my area lets go race a tc its pretty simple if you ask me. to sumerise lipos with capasity limited to 5000 mah (its cheaper than nihm) and brca to allow lipos and to sacntune the events.

stu rand

jim76
10-11-2008, 11:10 PM
i think you broke Ashleys record for longest sentence!

Are the touring car guys not bound by the same EB list as offroad? I thought the motors and cells list applied to all electric BRCA sanctioned classes?

discostu
10-11-2008, 11:23 PM
i think you broke Ashleys record for longest sentence!

Are the touring car guys not bound by the same EB list as offroad? I thought the motors and cells list applied to all electric BRCA sanctioned classes?


to be honest im not sure but there are no saddle packs on the list on the central booking site and this size tolarence this is the first ive heard about it with a tc if the cells dont fit under the top deck you simply raise it or put a smaller cell in.

i was never very good at grammer:p

Jim Spencer
10-11-2008, 11:30 PM
It's odd you know..

I could have sworn blind that I went into a school class room a few weeks ago and there were only a couple of dozen people there.. discussing what rules they wanted for 2009?

And yet I come on here now, and lots of folk are discussing what rules they want for 2009..

Bit late isn't it?

Because not enough of you put proposals in (which in all likelyhood would have got things kicked into line at our end) we end up waiting to see what the Europeans do to determine the dimensions we're going to run to over here :(

So you have most of what the pro LiPo folk want, we can race them, :thumbsup: surely that's the most important thing?

If you had wanted to nail it down in one go you've missed your oportunity I'm afraid, the EFRA meeting has several key players from the trade present - makes a huge difference when their opinions are aired, it was an interesting meeting to say the least..

Lastly some of the folk posting on here, should be ashamed - you know how this works - you could have done it yourselves and got it spot on - you have the knowledge that's needed to make things like this work correctly.
But you didn't, you left it to that mythical bloke 'somebody else' and it's ended up not quite what you wanted - It's your fault i'm afraid.

Lastly THE BRCA is you lot, it's all of US.
- there's more of YOU on here than there was at the AGM sorting out YOUR sport for you - have a long hard think about that, and get it right next time - have your say at the right time and the right place, and it'll work better for it.

racingdwarf
10-11-2008, 11:32 PM
I don't think they are dropping the BRCA. They may be dropping the BRCA's rules as a guide for their series. (I wait to be corrected)

As far as dropping the BRCA, a region would not participate in a BRCA sanctioned event, ie BRCA regionals.

The East of England, a struggling region is seriously considering this. The EoE regional AGM, in the next couple of weeks, should be very interesting.

:confused:I'm not even going to bother with what I think about the last part of this post.........

discostu
10-11-2008, 11:34 PM
am i correct in understanding the rule is lipos should be the same size as a nimh cell if so that surly cant be possibe as a nihm is round and a lipo is rectangular and why would this rule even been invented to keep the car manufactures happy:confused:.

discostu
10-11-2008, 11:44 PM
It's odd you know..

I could have sworn blind that I went into a school class room a few weeks ago and there were only a couple of dozen people there.. discussing what rules they wanted for 2009?

And yet I come on here now, and lots of folk are discussing what rules they want for 2009..

Bit late isn't it?

Because not enough of you put proposals in (which in all likelyhood would have got things kicked into line at our end) we end up waiting to see what the Europeans do to determine the dimensions we're going to run to over here :(

So you have most of what the pro LiPo folk want, we can race them, :thumbsup: surely that's the most important thing?

If you had wanted to nail it down in one go you've missed your oportunity I'm afraid, the EFRA meeting has several key players from the trade present - makes a huge difference when their opinions are aired, it was an interesting meeting to say the least..

Lastly some of the folk posting on here, should be ashamed - you know how this works - you could have done it yourselves and got it spot on - you have the knowledge that's needed to make things like this work correctly.
But you didn't, you left it to that mythical bloke 'somebody else' and it's ended up not quite what you wanted - It's your fault i'm afraid.

Lastly THE BRCA is you lot, it's all of US.
- there's more of YOU on here than there was at the AGM sorting out YOUR sport for you - have a long hard think about that, and get it right next time - have your say at the right time and the right place, and it'll work better for it.

yeah i totaly agree but what i will say in defence there never seems to be much information any were about off road racing the brca site always seem to be a little slow to let people know whats going on not just off road all classes of rc racing. the tc have the central booking site which is very usefull it always upto date race results up and comming events lipo list etc.

i also agree its a little late for the efra as you says its been decided but what about us here in the uk is it to late to have brca sanctuned events alowing lipos and bigger cells?

terry.sc
11-11-2008, 03:04 AM
No one seems to have answered Marks questions.how good shops would sell a car and incompatable cells?
None if they are a decent shop, which means nearly all shops will still sell nimhs with kit deals.how many joe bloggs do actually fit none standard parts?Very few, just a tiny percentage. The vast majority of r/c buyers will run whatever car they have as standard, these days even taking it back to the shop to be repaired when a wishbone breaks.

Just remember that whatever is popular at your own club does not mean it's popular everywhere else.
Even amongst the average club racers very few cars are modified from standard, a quick survey of my local club shows only two cars out of thirty uses none standard parts, most of the others are as they come without any manufacturers option parts either. The two modified cars both had home made battery straps instead of taping the nimh batteries in place. Out of those 30 cars one ran Orion lipos and one bike racer was using a suitably protected soft case lipo, the rest ran nimh.
how many joe bloggs would race at brca meetings let alone be a member?Again very few. I think the number is something like only 5% actually race at all, with obviously an even smaller percentage taking part in BRCA meetings. This means battery packs such as the Trakpower ones which are outside the BRCA rules have almost as big a market as BRCA legal ones, including the majority of club racers.
joe bloggs on the street can fit an 11 volt pack, as he aint bothered what rules areYes he can choose whatever he likes with no need to follow a BRCA list, except to capture some of this bigger market the battery pack needs to fit in the most popular cars such as the Tamiya TT-01. Outside of serious racers this is why the Yeah Racing pack seems to be the most popular and very few of them have ever heard of Trakpower.
It looks like the first lithium technology to reach the Joe Bloggs runners will actually be A123, Tamiya are releasing a 2200mah 6.6v pack at the end of the year.



It's obvious why this poll was started by Mark, to get some support to either try and persuade the BRCA to change the dimensions rules (not possible until it can be voted on at next years AGM), or get the EB to tweak the rules to get Trakpower saddle pack batteries legal for racing.

So far there has been no indication at all from the EB whether they will be allowing or not allowing the Trakpower packs, and we won't know the details until January. I presume any discussions on the matter will be made between the EFRA and BRCA committees, the EB and the various battery manufacturers, whish should include Trakpower, and for the EB to decide which batteries are legal, not a few people expressing their opinion on a board biased in favour of the Trakpower packs.
There are alternative saddle packs already available which are within the dimensions, but again until January we will not know whether those ones are on the EB list either.

If Trakpower want their batteries accepted Trakpower should be discussing this with the relevant people, not having their representative using forums to inflame the situation before we even know whether they are on the list or not. More importantly they should have made sure they had a spokesman at the the relevant discussions at the BRCA AGM, or became an Associate member of EFRA so the company can be involved in discussions at the EFRA AGM, both of which would have made sure the problem of saddle pack case size would have been discussed.

I know Mark was at the AGM but Trakpower should have
1) checked the proposals and made sure there was a proposal submitted beforehand with the bigger dimension
2) made sure there was someone representing them at the meeting, knowing Mark would not guaranteed to be available, that could have put their point across at the AGM. If the BRCA members there had voted for a proposal for a longer case length for saddle packs then none of these discussions would be taking place.

DaveG28
11-11-2008, 03:34 AM
Ay least 2 people have now been on here saying all we needed to do was go to the agm and ask for bigger sizes. My understanding though was the EFRA size proposal had already been submitted by then so the agm made no difference on the dimensions. Am I mistaken? When could we have affected the EFRA proposal??

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 08:33 AM
No one seems to have answered Marks questions.None if they are a decent shop, which means nearly all shops will still sell nimhs with kit deals.Very few, just a tiny percentage. The vast majority of r/c buyers will run whatever car they have as standard, these days even taking it back to the shop to be repaired when a wishbone breaks.

Just remember that whatever is popular at your own club does not mean it's popular everywhere else.
Even amongst the average club racers very few cars are modified from standard, a quick survey of my local club shows only two cars out of thirty uses none standard parts, most of the others are as they come without any manufacturers option parts either. The two modified cars both had home made battery straps instead of taping the nimh batteries in place. Out of those 30 cars one ran Orion lipos and one bike racer was using a suitably protected soft case lipo, the rest ran nimh.
Again very few. I think the number is something like only 5% actually race at all, with obviously an even smaller percentage taking part in BRCA meetings. This means battery packs such as the Trakpower ones which are outside the BRCA rules have almost as big a market as BRCA legal ones, including the majority of club racers.
Yes he can choose whatever he likes with no need to follow a BRCA list, except to capture some of this bigger market the battery pack needs to fit in the most popular cars such as the Tamiya TT-01. Outside of serious racers this is why the Yeah Racing pack seems to be the most popular and very few of them have ever heard of Trakpower.
It looks like the first lithium technology to reach the Joe Bloggs runners will actually be A123, Tamiya are releasing a 2200mah 6.6v pack at the end of the year.



It's obvious why this poll was started by Mark, to get some support to either try and persuade the BRCA to change the dimensions rules (not possible until it can be voted on at next years AGM), or get the EB to tweak the rules to get Trakpower saddle pack batteries legal for racing.

So far there has been no indication at all from the EB whether they will be allowing or not allowing the Trakpower packs, and we won't know the details until January. I presume any discussions on the matter will be made between the EFRA and BRCA committees, the EB and the various battery manufacturers, whish should include Trakpower, and for the EB to decide which batteries are legal, not a few people expressing their opinion on a board biased in favour of the Trakpower packs.
There are alternative saddle packs already available which are within the dimensions, but again until January we will not know whether those ones are on the EB list either.

If Trakpower want their batteries accepted Trakpower should be discussing this with the relevant people, not having their representative using forums to inflame the situation before we even know whether they are on the list or not. More importantly they should have made sure they had a spokesman at the the relevant discussions at the BRCA AGM, or became an Associate member of EFRA so the company can be involved in discussions at the EFRA AGM, both of which would have made sure the problem of saddle pack case size would have been discussed.

I know Mark was at the AGM but Trakpower should have
1) checked the proposals and made sure there was a proposal submitted beforehand with the bigger dimension
2) made sure there was someone representing them at the meeting, knowing Mark would not guaranteed to be available, that could have put their point across at the AGM. If the BRCA members there had voted for a proposal for a longer case length for saddle packs then none of these discussions would be taking place.

terry
i am not a represtative/employee of trakpower im simply sponsored by them as are many

please read my 1st post im interested to see what racers think, if the coverning body read this all well and done BUT if it went the other way on the voting id be cool with that too, its a public poll in a public forum, nothing official!!!

i was at tha agm but could not make the off road section as i wasin the ic 10th section as vice chairman

there was a trakpower representative at the off road section agm who did not vote, so your facts are wrong.......... unfortunatly when they (the drivers) wanted to discuss dimensions they were not allowed to so how could thay vote on a larger dimension

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 08:36 AM
It's odd you know..

I could have sworn blind that I went into a school class room a few weeks ago and there were only a couple of dozen people there.. discussing what rules they wanted for 2009?

And yet I come on here now, and lots of folk are discussing what rules they want for 2009..

Bit late isn't it?

Because not enough of you put proposals in (which in all likelyhood would have got things kicked into line at our end) we end up waiting to see what the Europeans do to determine the dimensions we're going to run to over here :(

So you have most of what the pro LiPo folk want, we can race them, :thumbsup: surely that's the most important thing?

If you had wanted to nail it down in one go you've missed your oportunity I'm afraid, the EFRA meeting has several key players from the trade present - makes a huge difference when their opinions are aired, it was an interesting meeting to say the least..

Lastly some of the folk posting on here, should be ashamed - you know how this works - you could have done it yourselves and got it spot on - you have the knowledge that's needed to make things like this work correctly.
But you didn't, you left it to that mythical bloke 'somebody else' and it's ended up not quite what you wanted - It's your fault i'm afraid.

Lastly THE BRCA is you lot, it's all of US.
- there's more of YOU on here than there was at the AGM sorting out YOUR sport for you - have a long hard think about that, and get it right next time - have your say at the right time and the right place, and it'll work better for it.
jim fair point but those present were NOT allowed to discuss dimension.................... so thats why were in this situation, not who went or how many, they were simply not allowed to talk about it!

Adam Skelding
11-11-2008, 09:34 AM
Some of us can't make the AGM. we do have other commitments. What riles me is that well before the AGM I spoke to Paul Worsley (via e-mail) about the Rule 25.1 proposal.

This was before I started to run LiPo so I think we can rule out the 'Biased Forum' nonsense which Terry seems to be hanging on to.

I pointed out that the Trakpower case is on the large side and that the rule proposal could be amended to allow current 'in circulation Lipo's to be 'legal'.

Here's Paul's reply: (I have deleted some banter between Paul and I)

HI Adam,

I have had samples of all TrackPower cells ad already have the dimensions recorded.
TrackPower can easily solve the width issue by not using the 0.2 mm thick clear shrink and bonding the case halves together.
It is likely that the EB will require this when we finalise rules (as they do in ROAR rules).

All the best,

Paul.

As far as I know TrakPower cells already confirm to ROAR rules, they have the sticker on the case. So it seems the EFRA and ROAR federations will have different rules for batteries. It makes it nice and easy for us chassis designers to have inconsistent rules to work with.

So before the AGM there was knowledge that a simple alteration to the rules would cover the simplicity of allowing existing packs.

To quote Jim Spencer:

'Because not enough of you put proposals in (which in all likelyhood would have got things kicked into line at our end) we end up waiting to see what the Europeans do to determine the dimensions we're going to run to over here '

Obviously it didn't kick you into line.

Oh, and could you please point us in the direction of dimensionally correct hard cased LiPo saddle packs?

RcRob
11-11-2008, 09:47 AM
TrackPower can easily solve the width issue by not using the 0.2 mm thick clear shrink and bonding the case halves together.

I thought when you added protective heat shrink to a NiMh cell it was irrelevant in measurements, yet for Lipo it counts. I thought the EB/EFRA wanted equality in cell sizes? :confused:

_sleigh_
11-11-2008, 10:09 AM
The additional layer of clear heatshrink on a NiMh cell does nothing other than cosmetically protect the cell, where as the heatshrink on a TP LiPo actually holds the case together. So as Adam has quoted from PW, the case could be bonded together.

Personally speaking, I think this should happen on the TP LiPo's to satisfy the part of the EFRA rule that states

"1. Lithium Polymer (Li-Poly/LiPo) battery packs must have a hard, protective case that completely envelopes the cell(s). The case should be made from ABS or a similar material. The two halves of the case must be factory sealed in a way that any attempt to open the case will destroy the case. The only opening in the case that is allowed, is for the exit of wires."

LBC
11-11-2008, 10:17 AM
Lastly THE BRCA is you lot, it's all of US.
- there's more of YOU on here than there was at the AGM sorting out YOUR sport for you - have a long hard think about that, and get it right next time - have your say at the right time and the right place, and it'll work better for it.

Unfortunately Jim, it's the 'Animal Farm syndrome' and's not always the case.
As Mark previously stated, the BRCA members were not allowed to discuss the dimensions.
Why? Because some myopic megalomaniac took it upon himself to propose the dimensions to EFRA before the BRCA AGM!
His reasons for doing this one can only speculate, but it wasn't for the best interests of our sport/hobby!

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 10:49 AM
come on please, i did ask in my original post to not bash the BRCA/EB. these guys do what they can, sometimes it may not suit our opinions.
jim may not have realised dimension discussions where prevent from happening

please no bashing of brca/eb guys

you can beat the crap out of each other:p

CharlieF
11-11-2008, 01:00 PM
Hi All.
As Jim Spencer has said the time for debate really was at the AGM. Accordingly, this "one off" post is simply to clear up a misunderstanding concerning the issue of "not being allowed to discuss dimensions" at the AGM.

This is not correct.

When the draft lipo specification (available to all at the start of the meeting) was debated it was pointed out that this form of words had received Electric Board (EB) support at their meeting the previous day and was proposed to go forward for acceptance by EFRA at their AGM the following week.

Any member present who was unhappy with this way forward had the opportunity at this point to proposed a change to this specification.

An amendment proposal would have triggered a vote and a positive result would have constituted an AGM section supported change to the EB. This change would then go forward to the EB for adoption or otherwise by the other electric sections.

No amendment proposal was made, so no vote was taken, so the draft specification stood as written.

I now appreciate that this "process of making change" is not well understood, however, it can not be said that the opportunity to make change was unavailable to the membership at the AGM.

I hope this aids understanding.
Regards.

_sleigh_
11-11-2008, 01:06 PM
Hi All.
As Jim Spencer has said the time for debate really was at the AGM. Accordingly, this "one off" post is simply to clear up a misunderstanding concerning the issue of "not being allowed to discuss dimensions" at the AGM.

This is not correct.

When the draft lipo specification (available to all at the start of the meeting) was debated it was pointed out that this form of words had received Electric Board (EB) support at their meeting the previous day and was proposed to go forward for acceptance by EFRA at their AGM the following week.

Any member present who was unhappy with this way forward had the opportunity at this point to proposed a change to this specification.

An amendment proposal would have triggered a vote and a positive result would have constituted an AGM section supported change to the EB. This change would then go forward to the EB for adoption or otherwise by the other electric sections.

No amendment proposal was made, so no vote was taken, so the draft specification stood as written.

I now appreciate that this "process of making change" is not well understood, however, it can not be said that the opportunity to make change was unavailable to the membership at the AGM.

I hope this aids understanding.
Regards.

Glad you wrote that :thumbsup: I started to word a reply earlier but could make my post clear to read. :blush:

OldTimer
11-11-2008, 01:18 PM
I am not sure how you can amended a EFRA proposal that had already been submitted to EFRA ?. I guess this could be done at the EFRA agm.

Also it was made clear at the start of the discussion about lipos, that the EB decide on the dimensions not the 1/10th section, and the only way around this was to not use a EB list, but come up with a 1/10th spec, like the touring car guys have done. But as no proposal had been submitted not to use the EB for lipos.

I think if people understood how the system worked then things may of been a little different at the agm.

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 01:25 PM
I am not sure how you can amended a EFRA proposal that had already been submitted to EFRA ?. I guess this could be done at the EFRA agm.

Also it was made clear at the start of the discussion about lipos, that the EB decide on the dimensions not the 1/10th section, and the only way around this was to not use a EB list, but come up with a 1/10th spec, like the touring car guys have done. But as no proposal had been submitted not to use the EB for lipos.

I think if people understood how the system worked then things may of been a little different at the agm.

so who in the EB or how does the eb decide on the specifications?

this was bought up after the brca agm but before the efra, could the eb have realized there was an issue and changed it at the efra agm.............................please dont say no as the eb's list was amended from 5000mah to 5500mah.

can any one say why that was done and who amended it?


was a representative of the EB in each of the electric sectional meetings (that use the eb list) to answer questions? i only know of two names who are in the eb, is there a full list off eb officers?

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 01:32 PM
Hi All.
As Jim Spencer has said the time for debate really was at the AGM. Accordingly, this "one off" post is simply to clear up a misunderstanding concerning the issue of "not being allowed to discuss dimensions" at the AGM.

This is not correct.

When the draft lipo specification (available to all at the start of the meeting) was debated it was pointed out that this form of words had received Electric Board (EB) support at their meeting the previous day and was proposed to go forward for acceptance by EFRA at their AGM the following week.

Any member present who was unhappy with this way forward had the opportunity at this point to proposed a change to this specification.

An amendment proposal would have triggered a vote and a positive result would have constituted an AGM section supported change to the EB. This change would then go forward to the EB for adoption or otherwise by the other electric sections.

No amendment proposal was made, so no vote was taken, so the draft specification stood as written.

I now appreciate that this "process of making change" is not well understood, however, it can not be said that the opportunity to make change was unavailable to the membership at the AGM.

I hope this aids understanding.
Regards.
charlie

first thanks for comin on here and expalining what could have been done.

did anyone explain this to the floor before the "no amendment proposal" was moved on from. ?

from who i have spoke to they seem to feel they were told dimensions could not be discussed, if they were discussed then maybe and amendment would have been made.
like wise a comment could have been made this is what the eb are putting to efra, and without knowing it it goes through with no amendment which seems the unfortunate case

i have been to many agms and i would not have known i could have amended a EB proposal that was going to be put to effra.

SHY
11-11-2008, 01:36 PM
the eb's list was amended from 5000mah to 5500mah.

can any one say why that was done and who amended it?

Belgium

(Height was also amended from 23,5 to 25,0 mm, and chassis protrutions were allowed)

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 01:41 PM
Hi All.
As Jim Spencer has said the time for debate really was at the AGM. Accordingly, this "one off" post is simply to clear up a misunderstanding concerning the issue of "not being allowed to discuss dimensions" at the AGM.

This is not correct.

When the draft lipo specification (available to all at the start of the meeting) was debated it was pointed out that this form of words had received Electric Board (EB) support at their meeting the previous day and was proposed to go forward for acceptance by EFRA at their AGM the following week.

Any member present who was unhappy with this way forward had the opportunity at this point to proposed a change to this specification.

An amendment proposal would have triggered a vote and a positive result would have constituted an AGM section supported change to the EB. This change would then go forward to the EB for adoption or otherwise by the other electric sections.

No amendment proposal was made, so no vote was taken, so the draft specification stood as written.

I now appreciate that this "process of making change" is not well understood, however, it can not be said that the opportunity to make change was unavailable to the membership at the AGM.

I hope this aids understanding.
Regards.

I am not sure how you can amended a EFRA proposal that had already been submitted to EFRA ?. I guess this could be done at the EFRA agm.

Also it was made clear at the start of the discussion about lipos, that the EB decide on the dimensions not the 1/10th section, and the only way around this was to not use a EB list, but come up with a 1/10th spec, like the touring car guys have done. But as no proposal had been submitted not to use the EB for lipos.

I think if people understood how the system worked then things may of been a little different at the agm.


those two statements do not match:confused:

SHY
11-11-2008, 01:50 PM
For BRCA just like EFRA the "problem" is that the EB list "overrides" any specifications as to rules in different classes. Hence you've got to skip the EB list if you want to decide on something else for a given class.

And if you think about it the difficult thing about the EB or EFRA (same) battery list is that it will also be used for touring cars. Which can exploit the extra amps by putting in an even faster motor... So for touring it might be a good idea to restrict sizes and amps to allow for level competition.

For buggy things are very different...

_sleigh_
11-11-2008, 01:54 PM
Belgium

(Height was also amended from 23,5 to 25,0 mm, and chassis protrutions were allowed)

I have since been told the height ammendment mentioned in the minutes is a typo and the height still remains at 23.5mm (chassis protrusions are allowed)

SHY
11-11-2008, 02:01 PM
I wasn't there, so that might very well be the case! :D Those minutes are often rewritten...

Jim Spencer
11-11-2008, 02:24 PM
To quote Jim Spencer:

'Because not enough of you put proposals in (which in all likelyhood would have got things kicked into line at our end) we end up waiting to see what the Europeans do to determine the dimensions we're going to run to over here '

Obviously it didn't kick you into line.

Oh, and could you please point us in the direction of dimensionally correct hard cased LiPo saddle packs?

Hi Adam

I Race 1/12 circuit - those small things that race indoors..
Never even handled a LiPo pack up until the EFRA meeting, why would I have done? My class doesn't race them.

What i'm getting at is that there must be the knowledge base amongst the users of these products to get the right proposal into the meetings - up front (Though as Charlie says above it could have been amended on the day and wasn't..)

What's happened here is the classic where most folk appear to have sat back expecting somebody else to do things for them and it just doesn't work like that i'm afraid.
As your point above perfectly illustrates.

I can put a proposal into any section (as can any other member) but I would only be confident doing it in 1/12 as I understand the knock on implications of what i'm suggesting - Here we have the opposite the people who understood the implications of what was going on don't appear to have got involved in the process?

dave g
11-11-2008, 02:28 PM
hi jim
can i ask jim,who proposed the sizes that we have now, and where did that information come from to arrive at the nominated sizing for the lipos.

cheers
dave

bigred5765
11-11-2008, 02:30 PM
i was there jim and thats not how it went, Chris long and Craig Harris put forward a proposal for lipo with measurements included, it was PW that said lets put it through saying instead just 7.4volt nominal voltage,and leave it open to any cell type,the measurements must have been added buy the eb board,imho

SHY
11-11-2008, 02:48 PM
As to EFRA let me also point out that my/our proposal was written ONLY for 1:10 OR. But the EFRA committe choose to divide it and change the paragraphs so that they could use it for all electric classes. This was done before the AGM itself.

I didn't like this very much as I knew that could compromise the 1:10 OR class due to matters for onroad. When I asked PW who did this and why this was done I did not get a clear answer.

To be honest I don't like these "behind the curtains" decisions. An open discussion, thorough proposals, and democratic votings are the right way to go!

Must admit I also find it a bit curious that two different proposals were merged. They took our "homologation bit" and merged it with BRCAs size specs etc. In my book if there's two "equal" proposals you choose one of them. (The splitting of our proposal in a way made this plausible)

@Jim: Check this out!!! http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/247982-future-1-12-scale.html
http://www.rctech.net/forum/attachments/electric-road/380025d1224268935-future-1-12-scale-100_0218.jpg
(I think I must try this shit...)

Jim Spencer
11-11-2008, 02:56 PM
hi jim
can i ask jim,who proposed the sizes that we have now, and where did that information come from to arrive at the nominated sizing for the lipos.
cheers
dave

Hi Dave,
No idea I'm afraid - I don't attend the EB meetings, you'll need to check with the section EB Rep.
Though as per the other poster below the proposal at the EFRA meeting, were for all electric classes (As is the EB's here) - there was a long discussion on sizes with considerable input from the trade members present.

Jim Spencer
11-11-2008, 03:00 PM
Must admit I also find it a bit curious also that two different proposals were merged. They took our "homologation bit" and merged it with BRCAs size specs etc. In my book if there's two "equal" proposals you choose one of them. (The splitting of our proposal in a way made this plausible)

Don't know about the first bit - there were definatly 2 distinct proposals, one for the specs of the cells and one for the Homologation process and use etc - discussed and voted on seperatly.

As i've said above it was an interesting discussion plenty of qualified input too, learnt a lot about LiPo's myself.

Jim Spencer
11-11-2008, 03:05 PM
I have since been told the height ammendment mentioned in the minutes is a typo and the height still remains at 23.5mm (chassis protrusions are allowed)

There was a proposed amendment - didn't pass.
But the one to allow larger chassis locating lugs (protrusions) did.

SHY
11-11-2008, 03:05 PM
Well, this is what we sent in: 4401

Had that been kept as is this could have been voted for on a "stand alone" basis for OR.

And touring cars and 1:12 could have had their own specific proposals.

Jamie B4
11-11-2008, 03:15 PM
Thanks for the info Charlie - but think I am not alone in just wanting to know what is legal and what is not. Understand that most stick lipos are legal up to 5000mAh but with having a B44 just haven't got a clue what to do with the saddle's. When will the info be available "what is legal by the BRCA" as I'm a bit worried about not having time to adjust anything that needs to be adjusted ie weight, positioning etc. Also we may have the same scenario as last year were everyone will rush to get lipos and some people may have to wait until well into the season.

_sleigh_
11-11-2008, 03:18 PM
up to 5000mAh but.....

5500mAh :eh?::thumbsup:

Cockerill
11-11-2008, 03:21 PM
Jim, there were definitely enough people there to vote what we wanted, there were also the proposals in that we wanted. Unfortunately for various reason we didn't get what we want. Don't blame the racer's, we did what we were told to do and it still didn't work.

It was also explicitly stated, by me, that we (the racers) didn't want to leave the rules up to the EB as we would end up not getting what we wanted. We had no choice, as the fact we have to use the EB is stipulated elsewhere (although I see that as a technicality that could be passed), and we are now left with what we have, luckily I run stick packs!

To me the whole situation is a farce. All people want to do is use the Lipo cells they have got. We (the customers) screamed for manufacturer's to come out with Lipo saddle's, they did. Then the rule makers go and ban them.

Jamie B4
11-11-2008, 03:22 PM
Sorry Phil 5500mAh but again which ones Trakpower, Reedy, Orion. 20C, 25C, 30C, 35C?????

HELP

Glenn Atterton
11-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Just a thought but why not try to get an EGM if you want to change something at BRCA level?

page 12 BRCA 2007 handbook (2008 not online)


15. EXTRAORDINARY GENERAL MEETING
An EGM may be called at any time if the Executive Committee so decide. The Secretary shall also call a meeting on receiving written request to that effect, signed by no less than 10% of the membership. Such a general meeting shall take place within 28 days of the written request being received and all members shall receive 14 days notice of the meeting, but without the necessity for detailing any further particulars. A resolution of an EGM shall not be valid unless 10% of the membership is present and not unless the resolution be passed by at least two thirds of the members voting


good luck

_sleigh_
11-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Jamie,

I wouldn't feel right suggesting a particular make/model of LiPo just in case it doesn't fit the EFRA/BRCA rules. Even down to the cell being "legal" as far as the sizes etc. go, but not being available in enough quantity or not being submitted for homologation.

It was said at the BRCA AGM that, the currect "TC only" list of LiPo's would be used as a basis for the NEW EB list. Any current cells on that TC list that failed to meet the dimensional/capacity rulings would be withdrawn and the remainder would be the initial list. Further LiPo's would be added as and when manufacturers submitted them (assuming they met the rules). There would be a deadline for submissions, but off hand I can't remember the date.

I understand that PW was due to be at the 1/12th & Touring car worlds in Tailand this week, so not much will progress on the EB side until he's back. I'll speak to him early next week.

_sleigh_
11-11-2008, 03:53 PM
Just a thought but why not try to get an EGM if you want to change something?

The requirements for an EGM are pretty steep.

10% of the membership need to sign the request. So that's about 600 BRCA members. Even then, 10% need to be in attendance at the EGM.

I find it hard to believe that 600 people made the trip to the AGM. :eh?:


It's a possibility, but not likely.

frogger
11-11-2008, 04:02 PM
All this nonsense is enough to put anyone off from racing. 10% of this and 28 days of that. FFS it's only toy cars! Voting for a new Prime Minister is easier! :D

_sleigh_
11-11-2008, 04:08 PM
I'm sure you'd love all the "hoops" if the situation was reversed and someone was trying to get a rule changed that allowed a "super advanced" cell type that only one racers could buy, allowing him/her to kick everyone's arse.

Adam Skelding
11-11-2008, 04:23 PM
Hi Adam

I Race 1/12 circuit - those small things that race indoors..
Never even handled a LiPo pack up until the EFRA meeting, why would I have done? My class doesn't race them.

What i'm getting at is that there must be the knowledge base amongst the users of these products to get the right proposal into the meetings - up front (Though as Charlie says above it could have been amended on the day and wasn't..)

What's happened here is the classic where most folk appear to have sat back expecting somebody else to do things for them and it just doesn't work like that i'm afraid.
As your point above perfectly illustrates.

I can put a proposal into any section (as can any other member) but I would only be confident doing it in 1/12 as I understand the knock on implications of what i'm suggesting - Here we have the opposite the people who understood the implications of what was going on don't appear to have got involved in the process?

Hi Jim.
My point is that at several junctures the BRCA have been made aware of the dimensions that would envelope the current range of LiPO cells that are out there.
I've even gone to the man at the top PW and pointed it out in a very self explanatory e-mail which he seems to have ignored. I given him the benefit of my knowledge at the time, well before the BRCA AGM thus giving him chance to amend the rule himself before going to the AGM. I didn;t think I could really go any further than to the 'Horse's mouth' for want of better words.

I'm not sure how it can be said that 'we've sat back' when I've e-mailed, other people have wanted to discuss the rules at the AGM and we seem to have been 'quashed'

FCS - We are talking about an dimension of a component in a rule that has not been finalised. Surely there needs to been some common sense from EFRA/BRCA in making the available rule fit the current ROAR allowed list, this would allow parity across the pond when some of us guys go racing at worlds euros, or other international events and vice-versa when guys from the US come over here.





Still no-one has found a hole in my original statement. Where was the overall pack dimensional ruling for NiCd / NiMh.

Lee
11-11-2008, 04:31 PM
Maybe the EB dont want people using Lipo :confused:

dave g
11-11-2008, 04:35 PM
maybe they dont want them using a certain make of lipo?

Adam Skelding
11-11-2008, 04:36 PM
I'm sure you'd love all the "hoops" if the situation was reversed and someone was trying to get a rule changed that allowed a "super advanced" cell type that only one racers could buy, allowing him/her to kick everyone's arse.

But we are not. We are trying to amend a rule that hasn't been concreted to allow normal people who've already spent their hard earned cash to go racing.

Surely that's more important, to keep the current interest in the sport moving along at it's current high level.

This could be the final proof that common sense is not common.:thumbdown:

jim76
11-11-2008, 04:42 PM
it does certainly disprove that saying that WE are the members and WE can decide all the rules for our own sport.

the members turn up having proposed what they want. EB amend this then tell us we can't vote on the day against their ruling?

surely we can overturn it for misrepresentation or something! lol

_sleigh_
11-11-2008, 04:49 PM
But we are not. We are trying to amend a rule that hasn't been concreted to allow normal people who've already spent their hard earned cash to go racing.

Surely that's more important, to keep the current interest in the sport moving along at it's current high level.

This could be the final proof that common sense is not common.:thumbdown:

Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant.

It seems that people expect the BRCA to relax certain rules to allow them to race cells they purchased assuming they'd be legal.

ATEOTD, those BRCA members know exactly how to vote new people onto the committee if they feel so strongly that the current committee aren't representing the interests of the masses.

Northy
11-11-2008, 04:53 PM
ATEOTD, those BRCA members know exactly how to vote new people onto the committee if they feel so strongly that the current committee aren't representing the interests of the masses.

Cue Lee-Mag..........

G

Lee
11-11-2008, 05:01 PM
Hiya :thumbsup:

G for chairman :o

Fabs
11-11-2008, 05:21 PM
I don't even own a charger that can charge NIMHs anymore and have used only lipo's for quite a while now. I only do open one day meetings that allow them. If I could run my car as is with lipo I would actually start doing BRCA sanctioned events. :thumbsup:


Your own choice of not owning a charger for the only legal cells, can't blame the BRCA for that really.

Fabs
11-11-2008, 05:23 PM
Here's a thought,

Why not propose that the BRCA allows the current oversized TrackPower lipos, on the condition that production of these stops and replacement products are made to the rules?

This way owners of trackpower lipos will be happy, people will still be able to buy them until stocks ends, and trackpower will be happy, the BRCA would be reasonably happy as the rules have only been bent for products that were there before the rules and not after.

OldTimer
11-11-2008, 05:44 PM
Thanks for the info Charlie - but think I am not alone in just wanting to know what is legal and what is not. Understand that most stick lipos are legal up to 5000mAh but with having a B44 just haven't got a clue what to do with the saddle's. When will the info be available "what is legal by the BRCA" as I'm a bit worried about not having time to adjust anything that needs to be adjusted ie weight, positioning etc. Also we may have the same scenario as last year were everyone will rush to get lipos and some people may have to wait until well into the season.

Jamie, we were given assurances at the agm that everything would be done to get the info out about what would be legal as soon as possible to avoid the situation of having to get cells at the last minute like earlier this year.

mole2k
11-11-2008, 05:51 PM
I still think all this would be cleared up with a 2 year grace period giving you 1-2mm in tolerance.

Allows current packs and no manufacturer is going to design a pack with a shelf life so short.

Lee
11-11-2008, 05:53 PM
Who says we will be using lipo in 2 years time, i think this was one of the brca's issues with them, there is new technology in the pipeline that in theory will be better.

mole2k
11-11-2008, 06:23 PM
Surely that gives more reason to allow the lipo's people have so they dont have to out and buy new lipo's to replace perfectly good ones. Thendown the line with the lithium A123 stuff upgrade again ?

JCJC
11-11-2008, 06:24 PM
Here's a thought,

Why not propose that the BRCA allows the current oversized TrackPower lipos, on the condition that production of these stops and replacement products are made to the rules?

I would not be surprised if the current saddle packs were as small as possible already, trackpower or any one else may not be able to meet 139mm with 2 packs, if the height dimension is a typo, then that makes it even tighter.

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 06:45 PM
I'm sure you'd love all the "hoops" if the situation was reversed and someone was trying to get a rule changed that allowed a "super advanced" cell type that only one racers could buy, allowing him/her to kick everyone's arse.
but were trying to aloow cells that dont give an unfair advantage and its the case thats over size, not the cells!
Hiya :thumbsup:

G for chairman :o

seconded!!

Here's a thought,

Why not propose that the BRCA allows the current oversized TrackPower lipos, on the condition that production of these stops and replacement products are made to the rules?

This way owners of trackpower lipos will be happy, people will still be able to buy them until stocks ends, and trackpower will be happy, the BRCA would be reasonably happy as the rules have only been bent for products that were there before the rules and not after.
the internals would more tha likley be the same, just half to 1mm taken of the case size, hey maybe even a thinner case and sod the saftey!!

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 06:48 PM
maybe the company are not in bed with EFRA?

Fabs
11-11-2008, 06:50 PM
Maybe make some of the internals external? As I understand a fair amount of space is taken by the plugs, how about removing them from the case and have them on a wire coming out, with good heatshrink it should be no problem...

MattW
11-11-2008, 06:56 PM
Here's a thought,

Why not propose that the BRCA allows the current oversized TrackPower lipos, on the condition that production of these stops and replacement products are made to the rules?


I guess that could be considered as being similar to the way GP were "encouraged" to shorten their slightly "lofty" 3300 cells a few years back :confused:

Mark, i'd be careful making too many "suggestions". Various respected/experienced companies are Associated members of EFRA, as i'm sure you know. It's obvious that many of these companies are present at the EFRA meetings to advise on what they see as happening in the future.

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 07:10 PM
thats was my point matt, one of the companies had a pack thatt was too big in capacity and hey presto the capacity is lifted

dave g
11-11-2008, 07:11 PM
and the pack dimension limit 'just happens' to be 1mm shy of the trackpowers..now whats the chances of that.

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 07:17 PM
Maybe make some of the internals external? As I understand a fair amount of space is taken by the plugs, how about removing them from the case and have them on a wire coming out, with good heatshrink it should be no problem...


so penalize somone for having a neat wire free package, or should we take all wiring that comes with the pack into the dimension equations?

question for you if a pack in use has broken insulation on the external wiring to the pack, and shrts out for saftey reasons how are you going to disconect the wire from the pack, yup you can unplug the pack from the car, nope you can not unplug the rest of the externat wire from the pack!

trakpowers you unplug the external wire from the pack, no external wires to short out

which would you say is safer?


bear in mind a new case could be designed and possible made to fit the "rules" but that is at a cost, and we all know that part of that cost would be down to racers to cover

Fabs
11-11-2008, 07:24 PM
I'm only feeding ideas to get a saddle that fits the rules.

There are Lipos out there that have wires coming out, Core RC for example, so i don't see what the problem would be... I don't run trackpower and my sponsors are unlikely to release a saddle pack so i really couldn't care less tbh wether these get legal or not, I'm gonna have to run NiMH in my 4WD.

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 07:31 PM
I'm only feeding ideas to get a saddle that fits the rules.

There are Lipos out there that have wires coming out, Core RC for example, so i don't see what the problem would be... I don't run trackpower and my sponsors are unlikely to release a saddle pack so i really couldn't care less tbh wether these get legal or not, I'm gonna have to run NiMH in my 4WD.
fully appreciate that fabs, but there is a saftey point that you can not disconect external wiring on the pack in the even of a short

Fabs
11-11-2008, 07:38 PM
if it is such a big issue why are the core rc paks legal then ?

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 07:43 PM
if it is such a big issue why are the core rc paks legal then ?
cuz there not saddle :p

Fabs
11-11-2008, 07:50 PM
cuz there not saddle :p

But they have 3 wires poking out and going to a single plug which makes them more dangerous than a saddle with a single plug at the end of a wire at two totally different ends of the pack.

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 07:57 PM
But they have 3 wires poking out and going to a single plug which makes them more dangerous than a saddle with a single plug at the end of a wire at two totally different ends of the pack.
Fabs there is no rule re wiring, im pointing out that they may not be as safe

Fabs
11-11-2008, 08:04 PM
Are you suggesting that Core RC packs aren't safe :p

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 08:05 PM
Are you suggesting that Core RC packs aren't safe :p
mate crossing the road aint safe.:cry:

jim76
11-11-2008, 08:09 PM
i don;t think a seperate balancing wire is going to make a pack more unsafe than the trakpower solution.

And after speaking to Mac at the wycombe micro national it will make no difference to the saddle packs to have the wiring outside the pack. The length of the saddle is determined by the length of the actual cell plus the case. All wiring for the connectors is to the side of the pack, so moving it externally would reduce the width, not length.

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 08:11 PM
i don;t think a seperate balancing wire is going to make a pack more unsafe than the trakpower solution.

And after speaking to Mac at the wycombe micro national it will make no difference to the saddle packs to have the wiring outside the pack. The length of the saddle is determined by the length of the actual cell plus the case. All wiring for the connectors is to the side of the pack, so moving it externally would reduce the width, not length.

im talking main feed wires.
external wires wont shorten trakpowers pack no.

Lee
11-11-2008, 08:17 PM
Just to make sure people know:

My G for chairman quote was a joke, i dont think people realise what PW (P Dub):D does for the section, it is a thankless job, just like any of the roles in the brca, but its not just the job he does, he also has many connections within the industry and is a fountain of knowledge whether you agree with what is in the rule book or not. :)

dave g
11-11-2008, 08:23 PM
on that we can all agree :)

jim76
11-11-2008, 08:24 PM
don;t think people are disputing that Lee, we all know what a good job he does. I think people are just a little annoyed that a detailed proposal was put forward, amended by the EB, then the members weren't allowed to vote on this at the AGM, even though it is in the rules that they can.

As certain people keep ramming down our throats, it's up to us to make the rules?!?

Ian Wall
11-11-2008, 08:37 PM
Having attended both the general AGM and the 1:10 Off Road Section, my understandings of the pertinent events leading to this LiPo Saddle Pack debacle are as follows.
The original proposal as submitted by Chris Long did provide specific dimensions. The original proposal is still on the BRCA website if anyone cares to check. For Saddle packs the original proposal stated - Length: 71mm, Width: 47mm and Height: 30mm.
However, at the meeting this was rapidly dismissed as not being acceptable. The many reasons provided for this included that according to 1:10 Off Road Section Rule 25, it clearly states that only Electric Board homologation batteries would be acceptable at any sanctioned event. Further comment was made that this rule could not at this stage be considered for changing. The reason provided was that for this rule to be changed it should have been within a formalised proposal and to count as such it would have had to have been submitted prior to the AGM within the designated timescale.
In my experiences in many other formal meetings of various other well run and well organised organisations and establishments, if anyone submits a formal proposal within the designated timescale that is not going to be acceptable, it is returned to the proposer before the meeting providing them with the reasons for itís non-acceptance, thereby allowing them to make an alternative proposal. This would allow a re-draft of the proposal to a format or of a detail that would be acceptable for consideration at the AGM. I do not feel that it should be left to the actual AGM meeting itself to advise the proposer then at that late stage, that their proposal, as submitted, is not admissible, particularly on some technical ground. Is this not one of the reasons of having the prescribed lead time for proposals? This could and more than likely would have taken the format of changing or circumventing the rigours of Rule 25.
To now have one of the Section Committee quite clearly and openly state,
An amendment proposal would have triggered a vote and a positive result would have constituted an AGM section supported change to the EB. This change would then go forward to the EB for adoption or otherwise by the other electric sections.
At what stage in the proceedings did any of the Section Committee advise the floor of this? I certainly cannot recollect it.
To now also quite glibly state as well, I now appreciate that this "process of making change" is not well understood, however, it can not be said that the opportunity to make change was unavailable to the membership at the AGM.
Surely any of the Section Committee, if they clearly wished for the wishes of the rank and file to be acted on, should with their greater comprehension and understanding and interpretation of the technicalities and procedures, have directed the members that bothered to attend to achieve what the majority in attendance wanted. That is unless there was some form of unknown hidden agenda.
I can most emphatically state that at no time was there any direction, help or guidance from any of the Section Committee as to how the process of making change could be achieved. Just read on this forum from quite a few of those that attended the Section meeting, they have all clearly stated and tried to explain, that the floor were very clearly and I would go so far as to say forcibly directed by the hierarchy that the dimension issue was not debatable.

Jim Spencer so often quotes,
Lastly THE BRCA is you lot, it's all of US.
I would like to believe that . . . . . . however in this instance it has certainly not been.
Could I respectively ask Jim, as the only senior hierarchal BRCA Committee Member to post on here, to offer us now, any advice or guidance as to how this debacle can be sorted out and a rapid closure put on it before it does untold and lasting damage to our sport?

Stuvon
11-11-2008, 08:42 PM
This maybe a stupid question:

What would happen if Trackpower gave a set of Saddles to the EB with the heat shrink cut off and the case glued together?

Could we then all follow suit and go racing?


P.s. no body has yet to explain why the heat shrink, which appears to only be there to stop the gold rubbing off, is counted in the size of the cell! (or is it that if the gold rubs off they won't pass scrutineering?)

jim76
11-11-2008, 08:50 PM
the heatshrink holds the two halves together so is integral to the safety of the pack.

Excellent post Ian. Neatly sums up what everyone has been saying.
The last sentence i think is key, as from the poll results there will be a vast number of people not running at BRCA events next year. Many may opt to run a different class for a year, and quite possibly not return.

I personally haven't purchased any 10th lipo's yet, so if some are released now that are dimension legal i will be fine. But i know a large number of people who have adopted the trakpower saddles due to them being the only available pack, and it seems unfair to punish them for a cell which is not going to offer any performance advantage.

People can argue they shouldn;t have purchased before the list is released, but that isn't really the issue. WE the members wanted them in and weren't allowed.

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 09:11 PM
This maybe a stupid question:

What would happen if Trackpower gave a set of Saddles to the EB with the heat shrink cut off and the case glued together?

Could we then all follow suit and go racing?


P.s. no body has yet to explain why the heat shrink, which appears to only be there to stop the gold rubbing off, is counted in the size of the cell! (or is it that if the gold rubs off they won't pass scrutineering?)
with the heat shrink off, thay are still over size by 1mm
it is possible to carefully cut off the the heat shrink at the ends of the packs and still retain the pack security

SHY
11-11-2008, 09:13 PM
This maybe a stupid question:

What would happen if Trackpower gave a set of Saddles to the EB with the heat shrink cut off and the case glued together?

Could we then all follow suit and go racing?


P.s. no body has yet to explain why the heat shrink, which appears to only be there to stop the gold rubbing off, is counted in the size of the cell! (or is it that if the gold rubs off they won't pass scrutineering?)

If you read the "EFRA feedback post" you will see that I've already measured that - it's still not enough. So no point in cutting off the shrinkwrap which would make it less safe.

Btw I also really like the patent with external "Corally style" plugs, so you can change the wires when worn. For NiMH you must replace worn wires after a while. And when you think about the long life of LiPos that's really an excellent idea.

Someone send PW a large bottle of whisky, get the dimensions bent slightly, put the saddles in and let's go racing! ;)

dave g
11-11-2008, 09:18 PM
team dremmel to the rescue :)

mark christopher
11-11-2008, 09:35 PM
If you read the "EFRA feedback post" you will see that I've already measured that - it's still not enough. So no point in cutting off the shrinkwrap which would make it less safe.

Btw I also really like the patent with external "Corally style" plugs, so you can change the wires when worn. For NiMH you must replace worn wires after a while. And when you think about the long life of LiPos that's really an excellent idea.

Someone send PW a large bottle of whisky, get the dimensions bent slightly, put the saddles in and let's go racing! ;)
SHY im learning to :wub you :thumbsup:
team dremmel to the rescue :)
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: could send pw one for his verniers with the whisky;)

CharlieF
11-11-2008, 10:08 PM
Hi All.
Despite my previous "one off" post statement I feel the need to comment further on the post of Ian Wall.

Section rule changes are proposed by members up to 6 weeks before the AGM and are heard at the AGM and voted on (Rule 25.1 was proposed to be amended by Chris Long) if carried this becomes a section rule - It was, and it will become a rule.

No other amendments with reference to the EB in our section rules was proposed so no further debate in this regard took place (i.e. no changes to rules 25.2 & 25.3 were proposed). In short for 2009, the section committed itself to continued observation of the EB approved cell homologation list.

The other part of Chris Long's proposal related to the EB rule changes regarding dimensions (this did not form part of his section rule change proposal (25.1) although it was related, but it did require EB rule change).
In this regard I refer to EB rule 1.10 (page 16) which states that "any proposals for changes to EB rules have to come from an Electric Section" that is, not an individual BRCA member of a section. Such change needs Section support gained at an AGM before it can go forward to the EB for consideration.

This alone is the reason why the draft lipo specification to the EB was in front of the AGM. As I have already said, if the membership present was not happy with any part of this, someone (a BRCA member) should have proposed an amendment which could have been voted upon and if successful would have become a Section supported EB Rule change proposal satisfying EB rule 1.10.

Please believe me that I have had to read the rule book in order to post this clarification. Like you I am simply a BRCA member and was not born with this knowledge.

Regards.

jim76
11-11-2008, 10:31 PM
Such change needs Section support gained at an AGM before it can go forward to the EB for consideration.

This alone is the reason why the draft lipo specification to the EB was in front of the AGM.

not sure i understand that. The members present were clearly pushing for this at the AGM, and you are saying that they needed section support to go to the EB.
Which begs the question why didn't the section support this change at the AGM then?

Gnarly Old Dog
11-11-2008, 11:30 PM
Phew - just waded through the thread thus far - it was tough going but I made it - just.
Mark - Just what have you started:woot:

For my penny's worth:
1) Life without the BRCA is unimaginable (for me). Thus, for me, I'll support whatever the elected officers and volunteers who run our guiding body decide upon. I couldn't get to the AGM. I had my reasons but at the end of the day, I wasn't there and so I don't have or deserve a voice - end of. You guys who put in the hours and hours of hard work that often goes unnoticed and unthanked get my total respect and support.

2) One of the greatest ironies here is that we're all discussing the fine details of the financial risk being run by those who have purchased LiPo batteries before the rules have become established. So what! You guys have a head start on the others in terms of car set ups so you'll be faster than the others come next season to begin with - and anyway (maybe this is a bit tongue in cheek) I reckon most of these racers wouldn't bat an eyelid at having to renew their Nimhs each and every year at a far greater financial cost than the cost of 2 or 3 LiPos. So sell the 'alledgedly' illegal LiPos to club racers who won't be having their cars scrutineered every week to offset the replacement cost.

Mark's said it and so has Chris and many others but let's not knock the EB or the BRCA for their efforts. The list hasn't come out yet so everything is still speculation. I'm sure that Charlie, Jim, PW et al do have the best interests of the ENTIRE hobby/sport at heart and even though it may not be meant, it must feel at times to these guys that their efforts are largely going unnoticed and unwanted by the members and if it were me and I were in that position, I'd be saying stuff the lot of 'em and I'd walk away from the whole thing. That brings me back (eventually) to my 1st point above. No BRCA = an unimaginable future for the hobby/sport.

But I wasn't there on the 26th and so I'll sign my renewal form and agree to abide by the rules set down by the organisation and it's elected officers. Without fuss and without criticism. It is by far the best fifteen quid I spend every year.

With all of the emotions being typed out in this and other threads, this subject has the capacity to destroy rather than create. Right now, lets all get together and support / promote our hobby/sport - lets not destroy it from within.

I shall probably regret ever writing this or clicking on the submit post button - but here goes...

Bungleaio
12-11-2008, 10:33 AM
Some excellent posts here guys but as I look at it there doesn't seem much of a chance that the rules will be ammended to cater for the slightly larger cells that are out there now.

So as it stands which cells that are available now fit the criteria?

SHY
12-11-2008, 10:48 AM
Lots of sticks, but no saddles. SMC has made some which are the right "footprint" (not too long, see the EFRA post at http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15589&page=7), but then again too high... (also those are ROAR legal)

Note! Keep in mind that even if a commercially available battery "should" be allowed on the EB/EFRA battery list, it still has to go through the approval process. So it'll probably take a while.

Can someone link to the EB list for LiPos used for touring cars?

Personally I can't stop thinking about what Skelding pointed out: How are the manufacturers supposed to design a future chassis with two different sets of rules? EFRA, ROAR and IFMAR really should discuss this and end up with a common set of rules.

DaveG28
12-11-2008, 04:30 PM
Hmm, so a saddle within dimensions needs to be produced, submitted, tested, and available in the uk? Can't see it being before Feb/March at the earliest, assuming they CAN make them to the specs.

Couple of quick questions, originally weren't the rules designed to be consistent with ROAR? But ROAR then have exceptions to allow certain saddles, so why don't the EB just match those exceptions? Or might that be covered by the list itself we keep being told to wait for? If not, why wait for the list, they won't add cells that don't meet the rules will they?

Finally, 08nimh cells are definitely still allowed aren't they? That list doesn't start from scratch? Cos I think I'm just gonna go back to nimh to not waste a whole winter setting up for Lipo weight!

mark christopher
12-11-2008, 06:28 PM
Hmm, so a saddle within dimensions needs to be produced, submitted, tested, and available in the uk? Can't see it being before Feb/March at the earliest, assuming they CAN make them to the specs.

Couple of quick questions, originally weren't the rules designed to be consistent with ROAR? But ROAR then have exceptions to allow certain saddles, so why don't the EB just match those exceptions? Or might that be covered by the list itself we keep being told to wait for? If not, why wait for the list, they won't add cells that don't meet the rules will they?

Finally, 08nimh cells are definitely still allowed aren't they? That list doesn't start from scratch? Cos I think I'm just gonna go back to nimh to not waste a whole winter setting up for Lipo weight!
so run your car at its nimh weight and have more time in the pits chatting with mates, .......................if you have any ;):p

mark christopher
12-11-2008, 06:32 PM
Lots of sticks, but no saddles. SMC has made some which are the right "footprint" (not too long, see the EFRA post at http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15589&page=7), but then again too high... (also those are ROAR legal)

Note! Keep in mind that even if a commercially available battery "should" be allowed on the EB/EFRA battery list, it still has to go through the approval process. So it'll probably take a while.

Can someone link to the EB list for LiPos used for touring cars?

Personally I can't stop thinking about what Skelding pointed out: How are the manufacturers supposed to design a future chassis with two different sets of rules? EFRA, ROAR and IFMAR really should discuss this and end up with a common set of rules.

here you go Mr SHY

http://www.centralbooking.org/cbs/images/stories/brca/eblipo2008-11.pdf

SHY
12-11-2008, 06:34 PM
The EFRA 2008 rulebook states that the 2008 list plus all previous lists are still legal. So in 2009 you'll have the 2009 list, but the 2008 list will still be legal.

RogerM
12-11-2008, 07:05 PM
Phew - just waded through the thread thus far - it was tough going but I made it - just.
Mark - Just what have you started:woot:

For my penny's worth:
1) Life without the BRCA is unimaginable (for me). Thus, for me, I'll support whatever the elected officers and volunteers who run our guiding body decide upon. I couldn't get to the AGM. I had my reasons but at the end of the day, I wasn't there and so I don't have or deserve a voice - end of. You guys who put in the hours and hours of hard work that often goes unnoticed and unthanked get my total respect and support.

2) One of the greatest ironies here is that we're all discussing the fine details of the financial risk being run by those who have purchased LiPo batteries before the rules have become established. So what! You guys have a head start on the others in terms of car set ups so you'll be faster than the others come next season to begin with - and anyway (maybe this is a bit tongue in cheek) I reckon most of these racers wouldn't bat an eyelid at having to renew their Nimhs each and every year at a far greater financial cost than the cost of 2 or 3 LiPos. So sell the 'alledgedly' illegal LiPos to club racers who won't be having their cars scrutineered every week to offset the replacement cost.

Mark's said it and so has Chris and many others but let's not knock the EB or the BRCA for their efforts. The list hasn't come out yet so everything is still speculation. I'm sure that Charlie, Jim, PW et al do have the best interests of the ENTIRE hobby/sport at heart and even though it may not be meant, it must feel at times to these guys that their efforts are largely going unnoticed and unwanted by the members and if it were me and I were in that position, I'd be saying stuff the lot of 'em and I'd walk away from the whole thing. That brings me back (eventually) to my 1st point above. No BRCA = an unimaginable future for the hobby/sport.

But I wasn't there on the 26th and so I'll sign my renewal form and agree to abide by the rules set down by the organisation and it's elected officers. Without fuss and without criticism. It is by far the best fifteen quid I spend every year.

With all of the emotions being typed out in this and other threads, this subject has the capacity to destroy rather than create. Right now, lets all get together and support / promote our hobby/sport - lets not destroy it from within.

I shall probably regret ever writing this or clicking on the submit post button - but here goes...

What this man said!!!! :thumbsup:

If it means that there is a stable set of regulations in place that everybody can read and understand the limitations they outline then that is just fine by me.
Winter season is becoming "the great cell debate session" and to be honest I consider anybody who buys before the list is availble a bit foolish and for those who had to buy as they had no cells left a little unfortunate. I was in the last group last year, having to replace all my packs in October or not race the winter at all ..... a pain in the ass yes but compared to not racing no big shakes.Surely those with the "big" Lipos will continue to get use out of them at club meetings or pass them on to drivers unaffected by the "legal" list as they don't race regional / national events as happened with many cells at the beginning of this year!

racingdwarf
12-11-2008, 07:30 PM
I run a club in the EOE and our club supports the EOE regional series. My club has permitted the use of lipos for the last two years, as have many of the other clubs in the region, we have done this as this is what members wanted......and WE NEED MEMBERS. Most have bought trackpower 3200's as the are a good price,fit in most 4wd,s easly and so far compaired to cells have been very safe.

What worries me is if the BRCA decide these batterys are not legal all who have them will just say "Oh well sod the regionals then" I will just race at club, we only need about 6-8 people to think this and 4wd regionals wont be worth running round here, And if those same people want to use the same batterys in there 2wd that will be the end of that two. Are there any other region's with this problem?

We already have someone running a championship series next year in the region that lipos are legal in, so were do you think all would go?

DCM
12-11-2008, 07:42 PM
I think, what people are flabergasted about, is how slow the EB is at getting up-to-date. We all understand the needs for rules, but to not expand the rules, which is only adding a set of extra dimensions to cover the use of saddles, will rule out a lot of people from racing. Now, when you consider, far more people run at club and regional level, where clubs may use the BRCA rules explicitley, what do the clubs do then. I know what they will, they will do as the members desire. And this is what, within reason, the EB should be doing. Otherwise, the only cars that CAN accept lipo will be the Schumacher, Tamiya DB-01, X5 and maybe one or two more.

mobile chicane
12-11-2008, 07:45 PM
I moved onto lipo a while ago as I was fed up of nimh packs dropping cells and dumping randomly.

I think the brca aproved lipos should be allowed at all brca events, the list seems to be growing but saddle packs are still very mutch in the minotity.

+ you will always have cars with odd cell configurations that just cant run lipo.

mark christopher
12-11-2008, 07:46 PM
Dave
one of the reasons for my poll

i want to do regionals and get an F grading after 2 years of indoors, looks like ill pick a club serries and wait for another year.

dan_kitty
12-11-2008, 07:49 PM
What worries me is if the BRCA decide these batterys are not legal all who have them will just say "Oh well sod the regionals then" I will just race at club, we only need about 6-8 people to think this and 4wd regionals wont be worth running round here, And if those same people want to use the same batterys in there 2wd that will be the end of that two. Are there any other region's with this problem?


I see your point and really hope it doesnt come to that

clubs in south wales are booming at the moment and we could potentially have a good summer regional series next year, I would hate to think it could possibly be stunted...

although i would be prepared to lend out some nimhs to who ever needs them:)

bert digler
12-11-2008, 07:51 PM
just a quick question was the trakpower the first saddle pack on the market if so it would become a standard:confused:

mark christopher
12-11-2008, 07:55 PM
just a quick question was the trakpower the first saddle pack on the market if so it would become a standard:confused:
im not sure if it was THE 1st as maxamps also had one around the same time i am sure trakpowers was the first proper hard cased one,
the thing is no one yet seems to have one within the "rules" considering we are talking around 1 or 2mm and you have two extra case ends over the stick dimensions........................................ .......:confused:

bert digler
12-11-2008, 08:01 PM
its a bag of worms which needs sorting as a lot of drivers will not not be competing at brca events next year if its not rectified in recent financial times i think a little flexibility would solve the problem as they dont breach the capacity rule and therefore no clear advantage

mark christopher
12-11-2008, 08:04 PM
i would prefer to run at BRCA meetings than clubs, and in no way do i wish to see the BRCA senctioned events loose out but i have to go with my kit and financial situation of 10th ic nationals and buggy regionals (if i can do them)

bert digler
12-11-2008, 08:11 PM
i think orion have 5300 nimh on the way but it hasnt been released yet i here but to be honest its pointless with lipo as all we want is cheap accessable racing to all brushless lipo goes a long way towards this as previously stated isnt the brca aim is to promote the sport not stiffle it with red tape for budding racers

jcb
12-11-2008, 08:17 PM
What amazes me is the amount of people that all of a sudden have had cells pack up so have had to go out and buy something new to race over winter before the legal list is created. I never heard that many doing it with NIMh's at the end of the 2007 season, then moaning that the cells bought weren't legal for 2008. So why is there such an issue going from 08 to 09:confused:

On a slight side note for the racer on a really tight budget that wants to do regionals or nationals I can see a small problem but then I go back to what I have written above.

or

Perhaps it's just that I am not that fussed over it all as no matter what I do I'll never get LIPO's in one of my cars :thumbdown:

mark christopher
12-11-2008, 08:20 PM
it that down the the make of car?

TheRacePlace
12-11-2008, 08:25 PM
It seems to me trakpower build a cell to fit the car there were no regulations at the time on dimensions so they made it to fit the cars,by default that size would be similar to nimh pack dimension, currently it is the only hard cased saddle available, we then say we want to use them and some bright spark says ok but they must be this size which makes the only cell out there unusable!!. you cannot argue that the manufacturers should have made them to the correct specification as there wasn't one!, they made them to the only spec required ie they fit the cars.

i did try to point this out prior to the AGM and thought common sense would prevail.

its not difficult thing surely. we simply propose to relax the size rule on saddle configuration packs until 2010, problem solved or does something that simple cause a problem!!
john

jcb
12-11-2008, 08:25 PM
yep!! I looked into buying a new car and LIPO's and couldn't warrant the change over costs.

DaveG28
12-11-2008, 08:34 PM
so run your car at its nimh weight and have more time in the pits chatting with mates, .......................if you have any ;):p

Hey, I want the Trakpower allowed as it's the easiest solution for me! But, I don't want to spend the winter setting up around Lipo just to then not be able to use them!

What amazes me is the amount of people that all of a sudden have had cells pack up so have had to go out and buy something new to race over winter before the legal list is created. I never heard that many doing it with NIMh's at the end of the 2007 season, then moaning that the cells bought weren't legal for 2008. So why is there such an issue going from 08 to 09:confused:

On a slight side note for the racer on a really tight budget that wants to do regionals or nationals I can see a small problem but then I go back to what I have written above.

or

Perhaps it's just that I am not that fussed over it all as no matter what I do I'll never get LIPO's in one of my cars :thumbdown:


My cells went down last winter too, I bought 07 cells second hand to run in the indoor finals, just to see them change the rules at the last minute so I could have just got my 08 cells instead! That's why I am not confident of an early solution to it this year, having been caught out last time!

mark christopher
12-11-2008, 08:53 PM
Hey, I want the Trakpower allowed as it's the easiest solution for me! But, I don't want to spend the winter setting up around Lipo just to then not be able to use them!




i understand, my set ups have not changed as an average club racer, i still crash as much :D

The Hoff
12-11-2008, 09:11 PM
I run a club in the EOE and our club supports the EOE regional series. My club has permitted the use of lipos for the last two years, as have many of the other clubs in the region, we have done this as this is what members wanted......and WE NEED MEMBERS. Most have bought trackpower 3200's as the are a good price,fit in most 4wd,s easly and so far compaired to cells have been very safe.

What worries me is if the BRCA decide these batterys are not legal all who have them will just say "Oh well sod the regionals then" I will just race at club, we only need about 6-8 people to think this and 4wd regionals wont be worth running round here, And if those same people want to use the same batterys in there 2wd that will be the end of that two. Are there any other region's with this problem?

We already have someone running a championship series next year in the region that lipos are legal in, so were do you think all would go?


It looks like Chris Longs proposal was trying to cover what you are saying :(

Copy of text taken from lipo proposal -

(Rationale Ė To allow the use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) batteries at 1/10 Off Road Regional and National events in 2009. Many club racers are already using Lipo batteries at club meetings; if Lipo batteries are not allowed to be used at Regional and National meetings a growing number of members will be excluded from racing at these meetings.

bert digler
12-11-2008, 09:15 PM
It seems to me trakpower build a cell to fit the car there were no regulations at the time on dimensions so they made it to fit the cars,by default that size would be similar to nimh pack dimension, currently it is the only hard cased saddle available, we then say we want to use them and some bright spark says ok but they must be this size which makes the only cell out there unusable!!. you cannot argue that the manufacturers should have made them to the correct specification as there wasn't one!, they made them to the only spec required ie they fit the cars.

i did try to point this out prior to the AGM and thought common sense would prevail.

its not difficult thing surely. we simply propose to relax the size rule on saddle configuration packs until 2010, problem solved or does something that simple cause a problem!!
john
like you said some bright spark:confused:

jim76
12-11-2008, 10:19 PM
yep!! I looked into buying a new car and LIPO's and couldn't warrant the change over costs.

2 packs of 3200,s and a trakpower charger for little over £110. with a balancer for under £150.

3 packs of orion SHO - £180, with no charger!

even if you need a novak smart stop it's still cheaper than 3 packs of cells, and most national racers would have 5-6 packs.

that argument holds no water any more as the prices have come down since the early days.

Doomanic
12-11-2008, 10:35 PM
Your maths is a little off, two packs of Trakpower 3200's and a charger is £130, decent NiMH's were available for as little as £30 per pack so the cost to change is potentially more. Add a balancer and you are up to £160ish.
However, the ease of use and lifespan far outweigh the difference in price.

Bring on the list so I can make the change to LiPo!:thumbsup:

jim76
12-11-2008, 10:53 PM
Your maths is a little off, two packs of Trakpower 3200's and a charger is £130,

depends where you buy, lol! ;)

bert digler
12-11-2008, 10:55 PM
i thought they where 45quid a pack and 40 for the charger hence 130

Doomanic
13-11-2008, 12:20 AM
depends where you buy, lol! ;)

It certainly does, but comparing discounted LiPo's to top price NiMH's is a little biased. In fact, if you are comparing like with like, the 30C Trakpowers are £54 per pack, making the total £148 narrowing the gap even more.

Darren Boyle
13-11-2008, 12:29 AM
Agreed, if things are to be compared lets at least use comparable equipment and equally discounted figures............

_sleigh_
13-11-2008, 09:45 AM
It seems to me trakpower build a cell to fit the car there were no regulations at the time on dimensions so they made it to fit the cars,by default that size would be similar to nimh pack dimension, currently it is the only hard cased saddle available, we then say we want to use them and some bright spark says ok but they must be this size which makes the only cell out there unusable!!. you cannot argue that the manufacturers should have made them to the correct specification as there wasn't one!, they made them to the only spec required ie they fit the cars.

i did try to point this out prior to the AGM and thought common sense would prevail.

its not difficult thing surely. we simply propose to relax the size rule on saddle configuration packs until 2010, problem solved or does something that simple cause a problem!!
john

I'm not sure I entirely agree John.

If you take the dimensional requirements for NiMh cells, each cell needs to be 23 x 43mm. So for a LiPo saddle pack being built 'per rules', I would think the logical sizes would have been 23 x 43 x 69mm. (69 = 23 x 3). That gives a total length for two end-to-end of 138mm. With the addition of battery bars on NiMh cells then yeah you could claim an extra couple of 'mm' on the width, but still this would be within the LiPo width of 47mm.

So, how can any manufacturer now complain, had they worked to those logical guidelines then any cell would now be legal under the new LiPo rules.

SHY
13-11-2008, 10:09 AM
OK, what if we put the length issue aside for a while...

What about height? If I want to put a 5500 mAh pack into my car, making it too tall - what's the problem with that?

It's not any competitive advantage - why does this need to be regulated?

As long as the manufacturers state measurements and maybe also state a list of what cars a given battery will fit directly, I really can't see the problem. It's merely a matter of information.

Why I want a big pack? I want the extra runtime for practise! More enjoyment!

This is Off-road! Runtime and power is a non issue since many years now! In Norway we are doing 7 minutes heat from 1. april 2009...

So the question is: WHO ARE THESE RULES MADE FOR? WHAT GOOD ARE THEY? In my book rules have some clear intentions:
-level the competition
-provide safety

Technology is not going to stop progressing... further down the road the battery industry will make new & better batteries - does it really matter if they have a different shape?

My guess is that nobody's going to run NiMH in 2 years... and we're still going to regulate all future batteries from their original shape? This is mixing apples with oranges!

mark christopher
13-11-2008, 11:08 AM
I'm not sure I entirely agree John.

If you take the dimensional requirements for NiMh cells, each cell needs to be 23 x 43mm. So for a LiPo saddle pack being built 'per rules', I would think the logical sizes would have been 23 x 43 x 69mm. (69 = 23 x 3). That gives a total length for two end-to-end of 138mm. With the addition of battery bars on NiMh cells then yeah you could claim an extra couple of 'mm' on the width, but still this would be within the LiPo width of 47mm.

So, how can any manufacturer now complain, had they worked to those logical guidelines then any cell would now be legal under the new LiPo rules.


phil

cost, and using the cells that are available, if the cells were out there then they would have been used, the internal cells in the saddles have to be smaller than the sticks, we are talking 2mm and thats for an extra two ends of cases
if it was that easy why are so many producing saddles that dont fit the dimensions, only one i know of and they had to lift the capacity limit so it would fir in the "rules"
i had some pre made 4200 and with the battery bars on they were a very tight fit in my b4.

all we the racers are asking for is some leaniance or common sence, you as a brca officer are in your role to promote the sport of model car racing (same as i am), in my opinion this fiasco is NOT doing that.
its not like there were rules to follow and build packs too, or for manufactures to follow, there are not many cars that these packs do not fit in, were talking no capacity or performance benifits.

somtimes sections need to make a decision on thier own in the best interest of thier racers, just look at the poll results and names voting..........

mark

jcb
13-11-2008, 11:16 AM
W2 packs of 3200,s and a trakpower charger for little over £110. with a balancer for under £150.

3 packs of orion SHO - £180, with no charger!

even if you need a novak smart stop it's still cheaper than 3 packs of cells, and most national racers would have 5-6 packs.

that argument holds no water any more as the prices have come down since the early days.


You need to read the whole sentence, and the majority of my original post for it to make sense and not just take part of it and put up an argument.

LIPO cells DO NOT fit in my current 4wd, which means buying a new car and at my last reckoning that would set me back at least £300 with some spares. You have also not took into account that because the LIPO won't fit in my car there is no chance of selling it at a reasonable price to help finance my new purchases.

Oh and on the price argument you need to keep things consistent, as has been previously stated!!! But by shopping around I bought factory team spec Ener-G cells last year (in the UK) for a massive £45 a pack which is £135 for three packs making them cheaper than your LIPO calculation.

So with your calculation of LIPO at £150, plus my new car at £300 makes a total of £450. By staying NIMH, even if we take the price at full wack of £60 and four sets of cells (£240) I still save myself £210, by not going LIPO. So if anyone says LIPO is cheaper, it isnít from my point of view At the present time unless you already have the electrics and car I can't see that going LIPO is cheap at all, or has any advantage over someone racing NIMH's!!!


I think the point in some ways has been missed in that next year you can still run NIMH's. We haven't got to run LIPO so being LEGAL to race next year should be even easier as there is going to be even more choice of cells to chose from.

SHY
13-11-2008, 11:27 AM
What 4WD do you run jcb?

I defo think 4WD is better to drive with LiPo (lighter). But for 2WD you need some ballast to get rear grip, unless on astro turf with high grip.

mark christopher
13-11-2008, 11:30 AM
W


You need to read the whole sentence, and the majority of my original post for it to make sense and not just take part of it and put up an argument.

LIPO cells DO NOT fit in my current 4wd, which means buying a new car and at my last reckoning that would set me back at least £300 with some spares. You have also not took into account that because the LIPO won't fit in my car there is no chance of selling it at a reasonable price to help finance my new purchases.

Oh and on the price argument you need to keep things consistent, as has been previously stated!!! But by shopping around I bought factory team spec Ener-G cells last year (in the UK) for a massive £45 a pack which is £135 for three packs making them cheaper than your LIPO calculation.

So with your calculation of LIPO at £150, plus my new car at £300 makes a total of £450. By staying NIMH, even if we take the price at full wack of £60 and four sets of cells (£240) I still save myself £210, by not going LIPO. So if anyone says LIPO is cheaper, it isnít from my point of view At the present time unless you already have the electrics and car I can't see that going LIPO is cheap at all, or has any advantage over someone racing NIMH's!!!


I think the point in some ways has been missed in that next year you can still run NIMH's IF YOU HAVE GOT THEM. We haven't got to run LIPO so being LEGAL to race next year should be even easier as there is going to be even more choice of cells to chose from.taken that you already have a charger/balancer to go backwards

added some bits you have missed out!

DCM
13-11-2008, 11:31 AM
I just don't see why, the EB can't just amend the rule to contain a MAX size for a stick pack and a MAX size for one half of a saddle pack, that would be easy, wouldn't it.....

jcb
13-11-2008, 12:23 PM
What 4WD do you run jcb?

An Atomic Carbon B44, I think you can just about the Tekin brushless ESC in but thats it and I ain't going to be going out and buying one of those.



Mark I can see where you are coming from if you only have LIPO, however I would think that 98% of electric racers out there already have equipment capable of charging and maintaining NIMH rather than the other way round.


Just to put the cat amoung the pigeons:- Maybe people should have looked at the Trakpower advert's in the magazines such as Racer and Race Car that amazingly already state that their stick LIPO's are BRCA Approved but the saddles are not!!!

SHY
13-11-2008, 01:00 PM
Atomized B44 with a 2+2+2 layout is a challenge, yes! :D I've got it myself and went for a LiPo special version which takes 3200 TrakPower saddles.

Anyway, those who want can still run NiMH - and will.

As to keeping a set of size restrictions for OR the only thing that can be gained from that is a 100% direct fit in most mainstream chassises.

But if someone want to carry excess amps - why stop them doing that? I love my Dremel and find mods a big part of the fun... :D

How about simply splitting the list in half? One part with approved cells that are within the size limits. And one half with bigger ones that still are tested as to crash, shorting and overcharging. Then it will be crystal clear as to whether a pack fit your car or not...

mark christopher
13-11-2008, 01:04 PM
An Atomic Carbon B44, I think you can just about the Tekin brushless ESC in but thats it and I ain't going to be going out and buying one of those.



Mark I can see where you are coming from if you only have LIPO, however I would think that 98% of electric racers out there already have equipment capable of charging and maintaining NIMH rather than the other way round.


Just to put the cat amoung the pigeons:- Maybe people should have looked at the Trakpower advert's in the magazines such as Racer and Race Car that amazingly already state that their stick LIPO's are BRCA Approved but the saddles are not!!!


no body is xlaiming they were legal, and they could not have been as the brca is only stick packs and there were no rules for saddle only stick statinga max length for the pack, saddles as you know have two packs

Lee
13-11-2008, 01:07 PM
Has anyone said "officially" what the lipo saddle sizes are and that those sizes are final?




Personally im getting really bored of this topic, a lot of people are acting like touring car drivers :thumbdown:

_sleigh_
13-11-2008, 02:22 PM
@Lee :thumbsup::thumbsup:

SHY
13-11-2008, 06:13 PM
Has anyone said "officially" what the lipo saddle sizes are and that those sizes are final?

Erm... heard about the EFRA AGM minutes?

This has been stated several times now... :rolleyes:

Lee
13-11-2008, 10:07 PM
I hadn't read every post word for word, it seems pretty repetitive as it is:thumbdown:

So if the european governing body says " this is what we are using" why argue :confused:

Also if people look at the people who have voted, yes there are some big names up there, who will do brca meetings regardless of what cells are used.


A lot of others wont even do regionals never mind nationals :thumbdown:

DaveG28
13-11-2008, 10:26 PM
I hadn't read every post word for word, it seems pretty repetitive as it is:thumbdown:

So if the european governing body says " this is what we are using" why argue :confused:

Also if people look at the people who have voted, yes there are some big names up there, who will do brca meetings regardless of what cells are used.


A lot of others wont even do regionals never mind nationals :thumbdown:

Lee, do you mind me asking why your against allowing the current saddle? I'm not asking to attack your reasoning, just because I'm not clear why people are against it!

Lipo attracts a lot of heated discussion so if you'd rather not have a lot of people attack you for the reasons, just pm me?

I'm just wondering if I'm only seeing half the argument as it's in my intersts to allow them!

Same for anyone else against them!??

mark christopher
13-11-2008, 11:32 PM
I hadn't read every post word for word, it seems pretty repetitive as it is:thumbdown:

So if the european governing body says " this is what we are using" why argue :confused:

Also if people look at the people who have voted, yes there are some big names up there, who will do brca meetings regardless of what cells are used.


A lot of others wont even do regionals never mind nationals :thumbdown:

lee im pleased you read the polls.................. thats why i put option 4 "i will race brca sanctioned events no matter what " as there are those who will do them no matter what.
i guess your right those who also ticked the box, "i would consider not doing a BRCA sanctioned meeting if i could not do lipo " wont, thats the idea of a poll, i for one would be doing regionanls if i could use lipo, if not i wont as im not going back to nimh

we are the BRCA we dont have to follow europe to the letter, yes i have a licence for both EFRA and BRCA, but i run under the brca in the uk.when i run to efra meetings i follow thier rules, as even in IC the two differ slightly

your also not a very good suporter for your sponsors!!:thumbdown: but thats my opinion

this poll was for me to see the reaction of brca members to see if thay had what they wanted, the results are answering that for me!

if you look at who has voted, there are also a few who think the rule should be relaxed, but will do sanctioned meetings either way, so they
1/ have a car that will take stick in both classes,
2/ use nimh
3/ want others to enjoy lipo
4/ want a fiar level play ground

to pick an example driver, Smokin (sorry james to use you) has voted to have a tolerance, yet he would gain nothing as both his cars run a stick lipo format which will be legal.

As your seem to know who will or wont do what, can you gaze into your crystal ball and get me the lotto numbers for next sat please!
finally if your bored with this thread, your the one who keeps navigating your self here, no one is forcing you to click the link!!!!

spenner
14-11-2008, 12:02 AM
Can anyone on here actually tell me what this thread will achieve ??????

Apart from loads of people getting heated about the debate about lipo saddles, where is this going ????

I can honestly say i am one who will run whatever is legal for next year, be that Lipo/Nimh.... As the current Saddle Lipo cells are outside the size restriction etc there isn't much you can do ????

I have seen various people say can't we relax the law/rule, or why do we have to go with everyone else... well i guess the rules are there to give us a guideline. No matter which way you look Lipo will at some point be used by all.

Sorry to those that purchased early, BEFORE the list or even Lipo were made legal that i guess is your mistake.. why should the rest of us who have followed the rules and waited for the cells to become legal have to move over for those that couldn't wait.. And then for some of you to say 'Im not running at BRCA events if there not allowed!!!'

I'm not against lipo, but i have waited for the BRCA to decide what happens with them.
I hope no new starters are looking at this cause if im honest it makes me feel like im back at school.. Racing is about fun, enjoying yourself, making new friends and travelling to new places... if you take the fun out of it by changing the rules to suit then you are likely to ruin the sports future..

I'm not looking for replies as i just felt this thread was damaging our sport more than helping it!!

RcRob
14-11-2008, 12:12 AM
i have waited for the BRCA to decide what happens with them.

maybe thats the problem? reading the posts it sounds like it wasn't the BRCA (racers) that decided anythin, as they werent allowed to vote on what they wanted :thumbdown:

SHY
14-11-2008, 07:06 AM
Yes they did shy, that was where the 25mm dimension came from:thumbdown:

I think the proposal in post #135 is about right

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9658&page=7

... and now you don't care? Change of heart?

May I kindly suggest that those who don't care or find this uninteresting or stupid stay out of the tread?

mark christopher
14-11-2008, 08:12 AM
Sorry to those that purchased early, BEFORE the list or even Lipo were made legal that i guess is your mistake.. why should the rest of us who have followed the rules and waited for the cells to become legal have to move over for those that couldn't wait.. And then for some of you to say 'Im not running at BRCA events if there not allowed!!!'


so i have had lipo saddle for a year now, and been using them trakpower have had them in production for 8+? months.

so if manufactures had waited for the rule, we would not yet have lipo, to me thats a flaw in your argument, Lipo stick packs were out long before rules were drawn up!!!!

mark christopher
14-11-2008, 08:14 AM
http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9658&page=7


... and now you don't care? Change of heart?


May I kindly suggest that those who don't care or find this uninteresting or stupid stay out of the tread?
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Lee
14-11-2008, 08:53 AM
http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9658&page=7


... and now you don't care? Change of heart?


May I kindly suggest that those who don't care or find this uninteresting or stupid stay out of the tread?

I dont think i ever said i "dont care".

What is uninteresting is that you keep going round in circles, do you work for the government? ;)

I was going to put forward a proposal but after speaking to a few people the ones put forward seemed to cover the bases. Also after speaking to some people within the brca and understanding lipo more I actually thought it had less of a chance at being homoligated.
Mark, I think your quote about not supporting sponsors is unfair, I run Trakpower products and promote them in the best possible way, but why would I promote something that will be deemed illegal? The companies who made the lipos made them to fit in the cars and hoped that the brca used the dimensions from them, but they didnít and that was a risk and they had a 50/50 chance of being legal. Now they have to go back to the drawing board and find a way to make them smaller. Its just like those people who took the gamble on buying cells before they were made legal, it happens every year and someone is always moaning their cells wont be legal, again itís the chance you take I personally cant change the rules and neither can you or your new mate from norway :o :lol:
Your point about the people who say they will not do a brca meeting if lipo is not allowed is also invalid, there are numerous sponsored drivers in there and they will be contracted to run at natonal and regional events, I know I am.
I think people just have to accept things sometimes, rules are there for a reason and for whatever reason the brca/efra have chosen these, im sure they have their reasons and they donít just pluck figures from mid air.
May I say, I think many parts of spenners post is spot on.

SHY
14-11-2008, 09:11 AM
What is uninteresting is that you keep going round in circles, do you work for the government? ;)

I sometimes wonder myself :lol: It kinda used to be...

Going in circles... well, some on here don't bother to actually read through the proposals minutes and posts (including my new girlfriend Mark)... and therefore you're kinda forced to repeat things time and time over...

Over the last months I think at least a lot of you guys have woken up and realized that you actually CAN make a change, and take part in the AGM, send in proposals and so on. Not just sit and wait... That's VERY positive!!! :thumbsup:

Here's a good quote from a guy named Roland S from rctech:
"Don’t just stand there on the sideline and do nothing. If you choose to do nothing that means you’re waiting for somebody to make decision for you. But who knows if this somebody is really smarter than you are. So, do you really want somebody, who may not be smarter than you are, decide what’s good for you? And if the decision turned out to be no good for you and you did not have a say in it. That would be sad, don’t you agree?"

Nobody's saying PW or anyone else is an idiot. But it's perfectly sound to disagree as long as you have valid arguments and don't get personal. Any driver or club deserves the right to hand in a full proposal and it should be discussed thoroughly and voted upon in a democratic fashion.

Worst case it's not possible to do anything about this for 2009. But there's a new AGM in 2009... don't give up! ;)

spenner
14-11-2008, 09:12 AM
so i have had lipo saddle for a year now, and been using them trakpower have had them in production for 8+? months.

so if manufactures had waited for the rule, we would not yet have lipo, to me thats a flaw in your argument, Lipo stick packs were out long before rules were drawn up!!!!

As i said, not looking for replies......

There is no flaw in my argument, there was nimh out long before they were legal. And as the RULES state they had to be submitted to EFRA/BRCA... Roar etc... If they wasn't legal then thats down to them to put right !!!! (is it not)

There was a size dimension in place for nimh already, clearly this would have been something for the Lipo manufacturers to go by ???

I am not having a go at anyone, as i said eventually we will all be using Lipo/or the next thing... Just stating that rules are rules so lets stick to them.

See you all in the playground... i mean track!!

mark christopher
14-11-2008, 09:14 AM
I dont think i ever said i "dont care".

What is uninteresting is that you keep going round in circles, do you work for the government? ;)

I was going to put forward a proposal but after speaking to a few people the ones put forward seemed to cover the bases. Also after speaking to some people within the brca and understanding lipo more I actually thought it had less of a chance at being homoligated.
Mark, I think your quote about not supporting sponsors is unfair, I run Trakpower products and promote them in the best possible way, but why would I promote something that will be deemed illegal? The companies who made the lipos made them to fit in the cars and hoped that the brca used the dimensions from them, but they didnít and that was a risk and they had a 50/50 chance of being legal. Now they have to go back to the drawing board and find a way to make them smaller. Its just like those people who took the gamble on buying cells before they were made legal, it happens every year and someone is always moaning their cells wont be legal, again itís the chance you take I personally cant change the rules and neither can you or your new mate from norway :o :lol:
Your point about the people who say they will not do a brca meeting if lipo is not allowed is also invalid, there are numerous sponsored drivers in there and they will be contracted to run at natonal and regional events, I know I am.
I think people just have to accept things sometimes, rules are there for a reason and for whatever reason the brca/efra have chosen these, im sure they have their reasons and they donít just pluck figures from mid air.
May I say, I think many parts of spenners post is spot on.


did you realize that after the agm ?
but there are other things that could be done


you would hope not but like i said the saddle packs have been round far longer than the rules, the bodies will have looked at the sizes, but for the sake of 2mm and no advantage chose to ignore it.


see your still back for more though :p

mark christopher
14-11-2008, 09:21 AM
As i said, not looking for replies......

There is no flaw in my argument, there was nimh out long before they were legal. And as the RULES state they had to be submitted to EFRA/BRCA... Roar etc... If they wasn't legal then thats down to them to put right !!!! (is it not)

There was a size dimension in place for nimh already, clearly this would have been something for the Lipo manufacturers to go by ???



they did!
the bare lipo cells are smaller than the nimh cells, its the packaging and conections that make them over size, somthing the nimh are not measured by!!!!

as has been said, when the larger nimh came out a bit of lee way was allowed!

SHY
14-11-2008, 09:36 AM
Considering NiMHs are still blowing up all around... maybe we should propose to hardcase them as well... making them all illegal from 2010? ;)

http://www.ymr.no/bilder/historie/NMF/eksplosjon.jpghttp://www.ymr.no/bilder/historie/NMF/eksplosjon2_small.jpghttp://www.ymr.no/bilder/historie/NMF/eksplosjon3_small.jpg

I sure as hell don't feel safe when people are charging dynamite behind my back...

Howard1650
14-11-2008, 09:58 AM
I don't even own a charger that can charge NIMHs anymore and have used only lipo's for quite a while now. I only do open one day meetings that allow them. If I could run my car as is with lipo I would actually start doing BRCA sanctioned events. :thumbsup:

I fully support the BRCA allowing a small margin of error to allow for Trakpower and other saddle bricks. The more stuff you allow the simpler it is for people to take part and for the sport to be supported.


I have to agree. I would like to support the BRCA and run at their events. But just last night I was turn away from a BRCA club for running Trakpower saddles in my 501X.:mad: The sport needs to encource new comes, not turn them away.

(I will never run at this club again, or purchase from the local shop that supports the club. A crazy situation if the hobby is to grow. )

CharlieF
14-11-2008, 10:34 AM
maybe thats the problem? reading the posts it sounds like it wasn't the BRCA (racers) that decided anythin, as they werent allowed to vote on what they wanted :thumbdown:

The reasons why the above is factually incorrect were explained in posts 66 and 135.

Gaz_Stanton
14-11-2008, 11:33 AM
your also not a very good suporter for your sponsors!!:thumbdown: but thats my opinion

I cannot believe this statement aimed at Lee! :woot: :thumbdown: (although it probably explains the warped aim of the thread...)
Yes, sponsors want support & publicity for the brand BUT not all publicity is good publicity! And I would say that this thread is doing much more harm than good. :thumbdown: It takes months and years to build a good brand reputation but only minutes to destroy one...

I'm at a stage where I haven't tried Lipo's yet but fully intend to soon when I get back into racing and will use them next season if I like them. This would put me into prospective customer territory but after reading all the whinging on this and other threads my first impression would be 'I wouldn't touch a certain brand with someone else's bargepole!'. I'm no marketing expert but I'm sure this impression before even seeing or trying the product doesn't help sales....

Can we please let the people who work hard to get us racing produce the list before it's shot down! I for one will be extremely p*ssed off if some of the posting on here causes the officials to say 'stuff it' and walk out. That would cause us a hell of a lot more problems than a couple of mm on a lipo saddle pack!

Chrislong
14-11-2008, 12:04 PM
Gaz, very well said.

Mark, guys, let the dust settle. We have people representing us who I can't see much respect for, personally I do respect the thoughts and opinions of the people who represent us and id like them to know that. if they're here, reading this thread, which is very likely, then my money is on their thoughts being "stuff it, why am I putting so much effort in to helping these people".

sit back, have a weekend, allow people to do what they do. Don't fall out with anyone, its toy car racing.

Darren Boyle
14-11-2008, 12:14 PM
I have to agree. I would like to support the BRCA and run at their events. But just last night I was turn away from a BRCA club for running Trakpower saddles in my 501X.:mad: The sport needs to encource new comes, not turn them away.

(I will never run at this club again, or purchase from the local shop that supports the club. A crazy situation if the hobby is to grow. )


Assuming you are "Howard" who turned up for the first time in many months last night, we have had in place a tempory list of "approved LIPO" for use at our club since we have allowed them. We ALWAYS encourage "new comers" so to speak, but to race within the rules we have!!!!!

Sad to hear you will never race with us again, but to be fair we have only ever seen you two or three times in the last year as it is, you are hardly an eager regular. The club rules and regs have been posted up on the club website for many weeks and flyers have been handed out since the introduction of LIPO, EVERY week at the club, if you have not taken time to read them or seen them then that can not be the fault of either myself or the club.

The comment about not supporting the shop sounds to me like sour grapes, you seemed happy to purchase the items we took along to racing for you last night!! Besides the cells and indeed car you have were not "supporting" the shop to start with, they did not come from us, if they had you would of been told that those cells are not yet fit for use at our venue!!

People do seem to forget, I am retailer, I want to sell things, my livelyhood relies on selling things, but to have to BAN items for use at our club that we sell oursleves I dont enjoy doing (I want to sell them) but when it comes to giving up one night of every week in my life to run the club then decisions have to be for the good of the club and not the takings at my shop. When the BRCA decide what saddles they will/will not allow then we will add them (and have them available too!!) to the cells permitted for use at our venue, until then racers must stick to the rules we have in place.

Every pack of LIPO we have sold, we have advised our local racers that it is legal/illegal for use at our local club. It is not our fault if you have chose to purchase elsewhere and have not read the current rules before doing so. You even told me that you had run these cells at the club previuosly some time ago, yet when we were asked last time if we allowed LIPO we replied NO, so we were obviuosly just ignored!!! NICE

I find it a shame that you say none of this to me in person last night then arrive on here and tell the world your one sided story (albeit you did not name the club, but to me it was obviuos who you were). At least be good enough to tell the whole story.

Darren, DMS Racing

mark christopher
14-11-2008, 01:31 PM
Gaz, very well said.

Mark, guys, let the dust settle. We have people representing us who I can't see much respect for, personally I do respect the thoughts and opinions of the people who represent us and id like them to know that. if they're here, reading this thread, which is very likely, then my money is on their thoughts being "stuff it, why am I putting so much effort in to helping these people".

sit back, have a weekend, allow people to do what they do. Don't fall out with anyone, its toy car racing.

chris

the poll has given me my answers, i like many are fustrated, believe it or not i still have faith in the EB/BRCA officials who have a taskless job. i purposly asked for no one to bash them, that achieves nothing.
lee has pointed out its going round in circles, most debates do.


thank you every one for your input.

mark

Howard1650
14-11-2008, 02:39 PM
Assuming you are "Howard" who turned up for the first time in many months last night, we have had in place a tempory list of "approved LIPO" for use at our club since we have allowed them. We ALWAYS encourage "new comers" so to speak, but to race within the rules we have!!!!!

Sad to hear you will never race with us again, but to be fair we have only ever seen you two or three times in the last year as it is, you are hardly an eager regular. The club rules and regs have been posted up on the club website for many weeks and flyers have been handed out since the introduction of LIPO, EVERY week at the club, if you have not taken time to read them or seen them then that can not be the fault of either myself or the club.

The comment about not supporting the shop sounds to me like sour grapes, you seemed happy to purchase the items we took along to racing for you last night!! Besides the cells and indeed car you have were not "supporting" the shop to start with, they did not come from us, if they had you would of been told that those cells are not yet fit for use at our venue!!

People do seem to forget, I am retailer, I want to sell things, my livelyhood relies on selling things, but to have to BAN items for use at our club that we sell oursleves I dont enjoy doing (I want to sell them) but when it comes to giving up one night of every week in my life to run the club then decisions have to be for the good of the club and not the takings at my shop. When the BRCA decide what saddles they will/will not allow then we will add them (and have them available too!!) to the cells permitted for use at our venue, until then racers must stick to the rules we have in place.

Every pack of LIPO we have sold, we have advised our local racers that it is legal/illegal for use at our local club. It is not our fault if you have chose to purchase elsewhere and have not read the current rules before doing so. You even told me that you had run these cells at the club previuosly some time ago, yet when we were asked last time if we allowed LIPO we replied NO, so we were obviuosly just ignored!!! NICE

I find it a shame that you say none of this to me in person last night then arrive on here and tell the world your one sided story (albeit you did not name the club, but to me it was obviuos who you were). At least be good enough to tell the whole story.

Darren, DMS Racing

Yes, I am the Howard that wanted to race at your club yesterday evening. I've only had my car running for a 9 months, (after a 25 year break) and enjoyed the race meetings I've been to. Your club is a family event with plenty of children and not the place to had a heated discussion on lipo qualification. It was easier to leave and not ruin the atmosphere for others.

I've run at plenty of other clubs in the last few weeks with no problems - Workshop and Stotfold - both excellent venues. If the hobby is not enjoyable there is not point doing it. Lipos are clearly the way forward for the sport.

I recognise that your livelihood depends on selling items from your shop and running the club is a necessary part of your business. That is why I didn't 'name and shame'. You brought your name to this thread. And you are allowed run the club in any way you wish.

As for 'sour grapes' - it certainly is but this is your loss not mine. The parts I purchased last night, I need for Stotford this Sunday. (The Associated front wheels don't fit by the way. The hex is too deep and the rim rubs the hub thanks for the advice.) There are plenty of other clubs and shops that don't have a 'run what your purchased here' mentality.

Darren Boyle
14-11-2008, 03:07 PM
Yes, I am the Howard that wanted to race at your club yesterday evening. I've only had my car running for a 9 months, (after a 25 year break) and enjoyed the race meetings I've been to. Your club is a family event with plenty of children and not the place to had a heated discussion on lipo qualification. It was easier to leave and not ruin the atmosphere for others.

There would of been no heated discussion, the atmosphere would of been fine, simply, we have RULES and they need to be stuck to. We have allowed LIPO since the BRCA AGM and have even produced a list "long one at that" of what can be used "currently". As I have said, saddles WILL be added to the list and allowed once we know what direction the BRCA are going, until then they are not.
I've run at plenty of other clubs in the last few weeks with no problems - Workshop and Stotfold - both excellent venues. If the hobby is not enjoyable there is not point doing it. Lipos are clearly the way forward for the sport.

I agree 100% both venues are superb and LIPO are most definatly the way forward and we do need to enjoy our hobby also.
I recognise that your livelihood depends on selling items from your shop and running the club is a necessary part of your business. It is not, it is just somthing that we do, not every shop runs a club, but we like to be involved, some do, some dont.
That is why I didn't 'name and shame'. You brought your name to this thread.
There is nothing to SHAME us with, we indeed are not ashamed of any decsion we have made and stood by, hence why I brought our name to the thread.
And you are allowed run the club in any way you wish.
Yes but we dont, the rules are ALL made by the membership, this LIPO rule has all been made by the majority of the members, not me alone.

As for 'sour grapes' - it certainly is but this is your loss not mine. How is it our loss, you havnt purchaed from us and you dont race with us already, what are we losing?? You have just chosen to narrow your own options for race venues, and admitted because of sour grapes......

The parts I purchased last night, I need for Stotford this Sunday. (The Associated front wheels don't fit by the way. The hex is too deep and the rim rubs the hub thanks for the advice.)
Maybe you need to run the AE hexs, I have not sold you what you run, hence I dont know what you own and have access to. I know of several racers who happily use B44 fitting wheels on the front of a 501X


There are plenty of other clubs and shops that don't have a 'run what your purchased here' mentality

Yes there are many, including US. We have a membership of over 60, over half of these have cars and equipemnt purchased elsewhere, we have no problem with that, that is their choice, but we dont expect them to moan at us if somthing is wrong if we have not supplied it. Once more you totally miss the point, we ourselves sell sadlle pack LIPO's, they ARE NOT ON OUR CLUB LIST (even though we sell them). It is saddle LIPO that is banned at present not where you got them!!!

I think you need to assess your ideas and appreciate that all "I" did last night was stick to the rules that "OUR" club runs to, if you have not observed these and wonder in from the blue ignorant of them that is not our fault. I suggested last night to get you out of a whole to ask to "borrow" some NIMH's and yet the racer pitting right next to you was more than prepared to lend you some but was not even asked (Alan). You have to accept rules somtimes and try to help yourself and not place the blame elsewhere.

frogger
14-11-2008, 03:21 PM
Darren, so you guys have banned saddle lipo's for being 2mm too big even before there is a proper ruling by the EB? And this is for club racing!? You sound like a really easy going bunch :lol: :lol: :lol: :p

burgie
14-11-2008, 03:36 PM
jeeez...is this discussion still rolling on?

Nice to see it has stayed on topic without any diversions or "hijacks" for a change. :p

kyoshosteve
14-11-2008, 03:40 PM
i thought rc car racing was ALL about having fun, meeting new people and enjoying the sport for what it is.
Also i thought club racing was meant to be the entry point for "the sport" so if people havent got the correct equipment (where ever purchased from)
surly the "rules" could be slightly over looked (and points not counted towards any championship) at least people could get a taster;)
Also surly this isnt the place for one on one tit for tat:thumbdown:
come on everyone lets try and get on, everyone has there own opinions and this is surposed to be a family sport

frogger
14-11-2008, 03:54 PM
I think there is only one way to really solve this. We need to break into factions. The NIMH boys, the LIPO brick boys, the LIPO saddle boys and declare war. We ban all weapons, the only way to take out your enemy is to overcharge your chosen batteries till they neutralise the opposition. Whoever wins means everyone has to use that battery type in any official race forever or they will be refused food and water and zapped with high voltage charge to their nads. :woot: :p

Darren Boyle
14-11-2008, 04:04 PM
No Carl, we have not banned saddle LIPO up until the AGM ALL LIPO was banned, we allowed LIPO as from that date, now what we are doing is ADDING LIPO as they get approved by the BRCA etc. All the appropriate ones are on the list in stick format and as soon as the rules are confirmed for saddles they will all be added too. Our "Banned" list only includes 3 packs of cells (all of which we do sell), our "Approved" list is over 20 long now.

Steve, I agree with the bulk of your comments, the idea though of not letting pojnts count etc, we are not suggesting that there is any advantage from running them, its just that we dont allow their use, as a rule, which the club runs to (at present)

To all, we are a club who welcome everyone, from anywhere, but with LIPO we want to make sure that they are all above all else safe, other rules apply, but safety is our prime concern.

As soon as the AGM was held we allowed LIPO, since they were voted in. We added all the "widely available" packs from the EB list to OUR own list for the club. As soon as saddles are approved we will add them too, if the BRCA decline them we will make a judgement based on safety (not silly 1 - 2mm oversizing) and add the appropriate ones for all to use (wherever they come from)

Sorry to divert the thread slightly, but what had been posted about us and our club in particular was incorrect and twisted form the truth, I took the chance to set the record straight.

Being a welcoming family club has been what has kept us going so far for nearly 16 years and it wont change now, we problably have less rules and restrictions than most clubs in the country!!

Darren Boyle
14-11-2008, 04:05 PM
Carl, love your reply before mine, comedy!!!! War it is, LIPO till the end....... LOL

frogger
14-11-2008, 04:24 PM
Carl, love your reply before mine, comedy!!!! War it is, LIPO till the end....... LOL

:thumbsup:

DanW
14-11-2008, 04:30 PM
Sorry to those that purchased early, BEFORE the list or even Lipo were made legal that i guess is your mistake.. why should the rest of us who have followed the rules and waited for the cells to become legal have to move over for those that couldn't wait.. And then for some of you to say 'Im not running at BRCA events if there not allowed!!!'

I'm not against lipo, but i have waited for the BRCA to decide what happens with them.
I hope no new starters are looking at this cause if im honest it makes me feel like im back at school.. Racing is about fun, enjoying yourself, making new friends and travelling to new places... if you take the fun out of it by changing the rules to suit then you are likely to ruin the sports future..

I'm not looking for replies as i just felt this thread was damaging our sport more than helping it!!

I agree with Spenner here.

Regardless of the various conspiracy theories, arguments and hearsay...

LIPOS have been pased for 2009 based on an eagerly awaited homologation list. -anybody who is has bought lipos already is taking a chance on wether their particular cells willl be passed.

I can see why there is popular support for the Trackpower saddles as they are about the only ones on the market.... But even if the dimension rules were tweaked wouldn't the existing TP saddles cells still fail anyway beacuse the case isn't bonded?

Its unfortunate for trackpowers business, but s**t happens. An internet slanging match isn't going to fix anything. :thumbdown:

All I will say is well done Schumacher! I'm sure they are pretty happy with the launch date of their new stick pack 4wd car coinciding with this saddle argument.

Northy
14-11-2008, 04:51 PM
Which hard cased packs are bonded together? :confused: My 3200 Orion is held together with double sided tape, the case has fallen off a few times :lol:

The case has never fallen off my TrakPowers...... which is the best solution? :p

G

frogger
14-11-2008, 04:56 PM
I have an even simpler solution - sell all the 10th scale cars and come and race micro buggies. Our section allows any make\kind of 2 cell lipo and NIMHs. 1 set of tyres can last a whole season and we are not effected by the crappy weather. Job done :thumbsup:

DanW
14-11-2008, 05:21 PM
Which hard cased packs are bonded together? :confused: My 3200 Orion is held together with double sided tape, the case has fallen off a few times :lol:

The case has never fallen off my TrakPowers...... which is the best solution? :p

G

Some have welded cases, i've even seen cheapie Hong Pong ones with welded cases.

Not a question of whats better, its question of whats going to be allowed.

I assume the bonded case idea is not for strength but to try and stop people putting an illegal cell inside a case from a legal pack, or to stop people from getting in to solder to the internal tabs.

If i made the rules i would ban cells with flying leads protruding from the case (like the Core packs) in favour on packs like trackpower and orion with integral connectors.

Chrislong
14-11-2008, 07:46 PM
I have an even simpler solution - sell all the 10th scale cars and come and race micro buggies. Our section allows any make\kind of 2 cell lipo and NIMHs. 1 set of tyres can last a whole season and we are not effected by the crappy weather. Job done :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: 18th rules! :blush:

jim76
14-11-2008, 08:45 PM
I have an even simpler solution - sell all the 10th scale cars and come and race micro buggies. Our section allows any make\kind of 2 cell lipo and NIMHs. 1 set of tyres can last a whole season and we are not effected by the crappy weather. Job done :thumbsup:

preaching to the converted mate!! lol :thumbsup:

The Hoff
20-11-2008, 11:04 PM
I see Reedy have released some new hard case saddle pack lipos, anybody know if the sizes are inside what is now legal ? 69mm long 47mm wide 28mm high 5100mah, nice to see 35c rated.

http://67.199.85.166/main/productdetails.php?text=710&category=5101.xxxxx

And it says they will be out by December is that to late to get them on a approved list ?.

jim76
20-11-2008, 11:57 PM
height is 23.5 or 25mm i think. 28mm is too high.

SHY
21-11-2008, 09:17 AM
Max 139x47x25

>> too tall

SHY
28-11-2008, 02:50 PM
http://www.efra.ws/news/executive001.html

13 Nov Lipo rules, important correction
Some draft versions of the Electric minutes found their way to the public and websites.
Unfortunately there was an error discovered by the proof reader on Saturday evening and corrected for publishing on Sunday.

It concerns the height of the cases for Lipos. The final version such as distributed in the morning was the corrected one and is now on this website: The height of the case is 23,5 mm and NOT 25 mm

mark christopher
28-11-2008, 09:46 PM
just as a quick nbit of info for you all
, looking at round 3 at worksop, 6 manufacutres in the top ten 4wd, 8 drivers used lipo, the two drivers that did not were both running schumachers., so 6 manufactures cars in 4wd are able to fit current lipo, also spotted was a X11 with saddle lipo fitted!(not in the top ten.) making 7 cars i saw with current lipo packs in them!

rcdunk
24-01-2009, 08:04 AM
it mat be somewhere in this long thread but I will ask anyway what saddle pack lipos are approved by the brca I currently run track power as its the only make I know of that are hard cased (but I do live in wales and it takes a long time for info to filter down to us in the sticks )

Darren Boyle
24-01-2009, 10:49 AM
Speaking to Paul Worsley in the week, it appears that there are "several" LIPO saddle packs that are going to make it onto the BRCA list at the end of next week, we have even submitted a good one oursleves for approval, which if all goes according to plan will be one to be reckoned with.....

Sparky666
18-02-2009, 12:15 AM
Any news on an actual saddle pack lipo list yet, for us new to off roading????
:woot:

JCJC
18-02-2009, 08:22 AM
No hard news, key words are wait and soon, but from reading Darren's post above, am expecting to see some saddle, just hoping they have some reasonable numbers, AmpHr, C and price.

mark christopher
18-02-2009, 09:21 AM
Speaking to Paul Worsley in the week, it appears that there are "several" LIPO saddle packs that are going to make it onto the BRCA list at the end of next week, we have even submitted a good one oursleves for approval, which if all goes according to plan will be one to be reckoned with.....
yup even i may have to eat humble pie:blush: