All 2WD should be rear motor

[jimmy]

Discuss :)

[Silberpfeil]

It worked fine for years but it's time for a change now. Look at formula 1, going from front engine to mid engine.

-Jeremy

[jimmy]

does it spoil the appeal though? it's a different driving style. I've limited experience but what i've noticed is it's more point and shoot and less flowing. maybe my old brain is wrong :)

[mekios]

Tracks are what is driving the evolution of this particular class. Tracks have evolved from pure dirt, to hard packed clay, to sugar treated clay and to carpet and astroturf in europe.
So cars are evolving along. Though us rear motor lovers shouldn't criticize cars, we should criticize track owners. But that's not possible as high grip tracks have followers nowadays as dirt tracks had.
I think it's a matter of time. In a couple of years maybe a new material will be found that would build dirt tracks that have medium traction that stays the same all day long without maintenance and then we can all switch back to rear motor and listen to the banter of those wanting mid motor cars. Or worse... front motor cars.:thumbdown:

[alex97]

Then should we all be using brushed motors and NiMH batterys? Its evolution, if the cars didn't evolve then we'd still all be running rc10 lol

[jimmy]

errrr, only car i raced this year was rc10 in the oople goldtub series.:p

bloody brilliant fun!!!

[jimmy]

It worked fine for years but it's time for a change now. Look at formula 1, going from front engine to mid engine.

-Jeremy

F1 gets tuned back everytime the cars get too good though - to make it more of a spectacle.

[purplenut]

totally agree i love the weight @ the rear end, Schumacher cougar works handled very well, 90% of my cars have been 2wd rear motor only 10% 4wd.
:thumbsup:rear is a fun driving style.....

[DCM]

The gripe I got is that if you want to be a 'racer' then you need a 2wd for all occaisions, front mid, rear mid and rear motor, as with everything, they are all a compromise to one extent or another. I do get what Jimmy is saying though, rear was more 'graceful' and front mid, super aggressive.

[jimmy]

Steering with a bit of brakes and throttle to get the car rotating is a sweet feeling. Not as sweet when a mid motor car just turns inside you and you eat dust tho :lol:

[NeilRalph77]

What needs to be introduced in 2wd is nominated chassis, fine turn up with 3 car's but you have to nominate what you'll be driving at booking in that way if the weather turn's for better or worse you still have to run what you nominated, not go and get your cheater or low grip car, it's getting back to the point of most money win's it's ridiculous having track specific cars and unfair if you don't want that much money tied up in the hobby but have to too stay competitive, manufactures need to focus on more versatile cars that suit varied conditions and surfaces!!!

[jimmy]

Worksop last year, greg williams took round one qually with his rear motor car but as the temperature came up he had to switch to mid car to be competitive.

For me it's just about having fun whilst driving and I have fun with a rear motor car that I can position with the throttle and things seem to flow a bit more. But everyone has their own style and preference.

[DarkHawk]

For me it's just about having fun whilst driving and I have fun with a rear motor car that I can position with the throttle and things seem to flow a bit more. But everyone has their own style and preference.[/QUOTE]

Me too I have a lot of fun with my rear motor 2wd, and that's the main thing for me is having FUN.:thumbsup:

[jimmy]

I gave up caring about being national champion long ago :woot:

[DAVO]

2wd is prob the most expensive class at a competitive level in rc at the moment prob even more than 1/8th rally x

[Welshy40]

I think as long as the rear ends powered doesnt matter where everything else is. What your forgetting is mid motor cars have been out and used in the 80's (Tekin) and 90's (Fabiix) but wasnt designed that well to get the most out of the chassis.

[paulc]

Rear motored only heat at the oOple series :)

[jimmy]

I think as long as the rear ends powered doesnt matter where everything else is. What your forgetting is mid motor cars have been out and used in the 80's (Tekin) and 90's (Fabiix) but wasnt designed that well to get the most out of the chassis.

You know its either axle right? :thumbsup:
I own mid cars from before tekin probably existed, 566b. I prefer off road that's loose or slippy myself, i like to get a slide on with a bit of oppo:)

[bretts]

For me it's just about having fun whilst driving and I have fun with a rear motor car that I can position with the throttle and things seem to flow a bit more. But everyone has their own style and preference.


Me too I have a lot of fun with my rear motor 2wd, and that's the main thing for me is having FUN.:thumbsup:


For me, this is the most fun car & class of all, good 'ol York. Even Neil Lewis ran his Yok Bmax2 in rear motor config. There's nothing better than catching a bit of drift on a hair pin, but I do agree times do move on faster than I do.

I hope Neil doesn't show the video of last weeks final, I binned it on the first bend!!

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y407/brell2008/CIMG2703_zpsc6a0bb12.jpg

P.S. I like the gold stuff!!

[jimarea51]

Hey..

Just a few weeks ago I ran my vintage RC10 team car @ York....It was fantastic fun, but i do agree that with all our tracks now being Astroturf the mid motor cars are way faster...

I think you've got to run what ever you like and derive the most enjoyment from be it mid or rear motor...

JIm

[neallewis]

For me, this is the most fun car & class of all, good 'ol York. Even Neil Lewis ran his Yok Bmax2 in rear motor config. There's nothing better than catching a bit of drift on a hair pin, but I do agree times do move on

York 540 sealed can is ace fun racing, love it. run my rc10s or bmax2 in rear.
Video from last weeks champs night final, John Walton just getting me at the end due to a silly mistake on my part. Bretts was giving me a good race in the heats.

http://youtu.be/BfDEoYS53Lw
BfDEoYS53Lw

[janus_77]

I'd say you have to use the same car you started the event with.

Sure you can have a rain / spare car with older electrics, but it should be the same model in the same configuration.

I don't mind the current trend of "just test any random configuration". This evolution is part of racing, and this is the way it should be.

[Aire valley]

Brett.......for a rear motor car....what's all that weight up front for..? to get it to handle like a mid motor..?:lol:

[bretts]

Brett.......for a rear motor car....what's all that weight up front for..? to get it to handle like a mid motor..?:lol:

Yeah, I suppose to keep up with mid motor cars:lol: & it gives me something to polish.:thumbsup:

but, my thinking is that the B4 was designed for Nimh batteries which were about 400g so with a lipo being 280-300g I can put the extra weight up front better steering on the super slippy york floor

[remoh racing]

the point I'd like to make is in a nutshell that if you cant drive you can't drive.And if that's the case front,rear or mid won't make a blind bit of difference a top drive could still more than likely make a national a final with a ready to run mad rat for example imo its 80% driver 20% car

[mark christopher]

with the current crop of 2wd cars im enjoying off roading more than ever

[AC199]

I think as long as its only driven by 2 wheels, the clue is in the name of the class. Top drivers will always be able to drive anything they want to.

Now, at club level and below (which is my level) I can see a slight reason to segregate the different cars out, but so long as you're having fun who honestly gives a flying ****?

If you're concerned about where you're finishing spend the money and buy all 4 options, if not, run what you brung.

You do have the option to separate them out at your race series though Jimbo... Why not try it as see how it goes?

[cmgreen]

What if some one made a rear motor 2wd that has the front wheels being driven and that car is the fastest out there, still a 2wd, will people complain then?

I can't see a problem with a manufacture designing the best car out there and then selling it. The problem occurs when a manufacture designs and races a car for the team drivers and the rest of us can't buy it. Gotta give Schumacher a A* for this, they test a part and if it's better they sell it within weeks of testing it, so we all can run run the team car if we want.

9 times out of 10 anyway it's the driver that makes the difference

[jimmy]

Car is everything now. Even mid motor cars can't keep up with a front-mid on some tracks which is why they refer to them as 'cheater cars'. So it's bogus to think for a moment the car isn't a huge factor.
Are all the national A finalists for instance happy with their current 2WD cars or do they either wish they had other options or the old car they ran a couple of seasons ago which was quicker..... ?

The cars are going to get better and better - but having a compromise where you can have many layouts in one chassis isn't going to be feasable. So having three 2WD cars could be the future - and it already is for some.

I'd merrily welcome lower traction tracks - in fact, it's the only type of track I enjoy. If I can't 'ken block' it round a bit then why bother! :thumbsup::woot:

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Hugely emotive subject this one.

Can't and shouldn't stop evolution / progress but for sure, it has to be balanced with regard to cost - especially once the evolution gets to the point where it is detrimental to class numbers and the longevity of the class.

Note - I'm not suggesting that this point has / has not occurred in 1:10 Off road EP 2WD yet.

For me though the issue is about grip and the abundance of it. Regardless of where the motor is placed, or how many chassis's you now need to be 'competitive', we've reached a situation now where 4WD is now so reactive that they're almost impossible to hang on to in dry conditions and 2WD has become very chassis specific.

Astroturf has it's benefits and although I prefer old skool natural surfaces (and the skill in pitting yourself against a degrading surface which demands subtle changes during the day to stay on top of the changes when you next go out), you can't argue that Astro has made off road much more accessible all-year round in our climatic conditions and has made it easier for clubs to run meetings without constant track repairs.

So if the surface can't change, then how else can the grip be limited?

For me its simple - why can't we mechanically limit the available grip by enforcing harder tyres - or banning inserts?
It was muted once by a much cleverer guy than me but it was ridiculed back then.
I suspect the same will happen now - but if grip is the root cause of the issue, then take some of it away.

BTW - I'm with Jimmy - can't beat the feeling of driving a well sorted rear motor car for the feedback and enjoyment it gives you - but it's hard to accept being much much slower than cars in the 'same' class and its got to a point where the racing lines are so different between rear motor and front/mid motor that the two are scarcely compatible without some respect and gentlemenly driving.

Its probably no wonder that Vintage is becoming more popular - but it's enjoying a heyday at the moment because it's still seen as being fun and not uber serious.

[remoh racing]

Car is everything now. Even mid motor cars can't keep up with a front-mid on some tracks which is why they refer to them as 'cheater cars'. So it's bogus to think for a moment the car isn't a huge factor.
Are all the national A finalists for instance happy with their current 2WD cars or do they either wish they had other options or the old car they ran a couple of seasons ago which was quicker..... ?

The cars are going to get better and better - but having a compromise where you can have many layouts in one chassis isn't going to be feasable. So having three 2WD cars could be the future - and it already is for some.

I'd merrily welcome lower traction tracks - in fact, it's the only type of track I enjoy. If I can't 'ken block' it round a bit then why bother! :thumbsup::woot:

jimmy I agree to a point but Imo unless a cheater car is sold as a complete kit ie available out of the box then it should be banned ie convertion kits not that there is anything wrong with them but it dosnt give manufacturers like tlr a chance how could you build a fully tlr based cheater car what with the 22-4's motor position

[jimmy]

love low traction surfaces - I raced my tlr22 in rear motor at York and Batley and it was awesome. With the likes of Andy Shillito behind be with another 22 but in mid motor it was so different to see the styles. His car just went to the apex and turned. I was on the brakes before the corner to get the car sideways on the polished floor and then trying to get the power down with a bit of opposite lock.
That is just fun to me, in fact - it's hilarious.

[remoh racing]

and what about imposing a motor limit on cheater cars if they are that much faster say maximum of a 10.5 for example
have to say also I agree there is nothing quite like driving a rear motored car on a slippery track

[cmgreen]

Reading more into this, I don't think we car blame any manufacturer that designs its car more around what the user wants. If I were to blame any one it would be the clubs who design and make the tracks. But we all love these new astro tracks, I do. High grip tracks everywhere, and a manufacturer designs a car to work on those tracks, well done them!

They have designed a car within the rules, not cheated, just plain and simple engineering at its best. Am just glad it's a uk company that did it first, congrats to them! British engineering at its best! If you can't beat em join em.

Maybe we should ask the brca to put a rule in there somewhere that at track must be a % astro and what ever else (I dunno).

Anyway, I love my kf and my sv2 so am happy :thumbsup:

[Welshy40]

You know its either axle right? :thumbsup:
I own mid cars from before tekin probably existed, 566b. I prefer off road that's loose or slippy myself, i like to get a slide on with a bit of oppo:)

Jimmy, me too so no harm in having a 2wd rear motor heat only at events, should be a laugh and may dig out my B2 as I loved driving that

[jimmy]

Mate, i went up to jurai hudy and asked if they will make a one way for the xb4 and he just looked at me like i was on crack. Yeah ok, so I like to handbrake into corners :lol:

[DCM]

love low traction surfaces - I raced my tlr22 in rear motor at York and Batley and it was awesome. With the likes of Andy Shillito behind be with another 22 but in mid motor it was so different to see the styles. His car just went to the apex and turned. I was on the brakes before the corner to get the car sideways on the polished floor and then trying to get the power down with a bit of opposite lock.
That is just fun to me, in fact - it's hilarious.

I think the main issue here is that racers are wanting all weather tracks, astro tracks coming the norm and people can get away with the greater amount of steering. I do love the fact that I can pile up to the corner, slam the brakes on and flick it round, but it isn't graceful.

I do miss rear motor though.

[jimmy]

I just wonder if there's a place for either having more low traction tracks or a rear motor class. Perhaps it's mostly the tracks and the demands of the racers and lack of money.
Batley used to have that clay corner but it was so much work every time we turned up to race, and if it rained it was just not used, so it was astro'd which was a shame really in a way.

[DCM]

I love racing on grass, especially as it wears as it isn't just a matter of full lock, full power like on Astro which, unlike grass which deteriorates during the day, astro gets faster. Downside to that is that when you have a mistake it ends up being messy.

Maybe nationals should be on grass.....

Back in the day, people didn't care what they raced on, now they want to run on clean, pristine and groomed surfaces.

[dwp102]

[QUOTE=Gnarly Old Dog;889890

For me though the issue is about grip and the abundance of it. Regardless of where the motor is placed, or how many chassis's you now need to be 'competitive', we've reached a situation now where 4WD is now so reactive that they're almost impossible to hang on to in dry conditions and 2WD has become very chassis specific.

Astroturf

So if the surface can't change, then how else can the grip be limited?

For me its simple - why can't we mechanically limit the available grip by enforcing harder tyres - or banning inserts?
It was muted once by a much cleverer guy than me but it was ridiculed back then.
I suspect the same will happen now - but if grip is the root cause of the issue, then take some of it away. [/QUOTE]

What about a spec class using any 2wd car you want but it has to be nominated at the start of the day no motor or battery or esc restrictions but the only tires that can be used are green blocks rear and green lp cut staggered ribs at the front regardless if it is dry or wet? And limit the number of sets to be used for the day to 2.

[Ritchie T]

2wd is prob the most expensive class at a competitive level in rc at the moment prob even more than 1/8th rally x

No its not, Bloomfield won with a KF in wet & dry with one car.

[whites75]

is there a big difference as to the feel and handling of the car from a mid to a rear motor car? My bmax 2 I run as a mid motor but just bought a bmax 2 roller and am setting this up to run as a rear motor to try it out. At least if I don't like it I have a spare car to set up as another mid motor or a donor car :)

[mark christopher]

No its not, Bloomfield won with a KF in wet & dry with one car.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[jimmy]

I was going to make the point that there was nothing cheap about bloomfields wins and if you believe he didn't have ALL available cars in his van just in case then you're all mad:p

The point someone made about cost is having those cars, whether using them or not, and of course he had them. He also probably used more tyres in the season than everyone posting on here combined. racing aint cheap.

Not having a bash at schumacher, i bought with MY cold hard cash the K1 and the KR. Not used my kr but the k1 was awesome. Getting a new one is high on my list when i have money. KF doesn't interest me because it's just not my driving style really. I'm sure it would be epicly fun to race on high grip tracks and everyone loves it from my experience.

[CARB]

I find that being able to have two different cars driven at one meeting signed on by one driver is the problem, wet car and a dry car as for on road and low and high grip configuration for off road.

if when you sign on you elect which car you are driving was the norm then by the law of averages the most useable car would become the norm.

I am talking about racing out side and on Astro, if you are inside or on dirt then it would be forward or rear motor.

The biggest trouble with this trend is that what was a competitive cheap hobby is becoming to specialised a chassis for this a chassis for that, and we all know where that leads to is, higher cost = less drivers = less clubs = no hobby

Other sections are seeing their numbers drop partly due to travel cost and price of kits and engines, for once why does the governing not say two chassis designs one rear and one mid, that uses the same gear box rotated for rear or mid e.g Tlr 22, dex210, sv2 etc.

We must be the only motor sport that is governed by the manufactures and not by our elected committees as to what we drive and where our sport goes, I am not against progress and development, it seems since we now have motors that never ware out and batteries that have more power than ever before servos and radios that work with out interference the rear, mid, forward chassis is a easy way to keep us buying stuff.

For example a typical father and son want to go racing so to buy two chassis kits £640.00

Yokomo YZ-2 - Now Available to Pre-Order

Our Price £319.99 - Stock Due Jan 2015

[Tom3012]

I raced my Losi xxx-cr at the Southport round of oople, best fun racing I've had in ages! :drool:

[cmgreen]

We must be the only motor sport that is governed by the manufactures and not by our elected committees as to what we drive and where our sport goes, I am not against progress and development, it seems since we now have motors that never ware out and batteries that have more power than ever before servos and radios that work with out interference the rear, mid, forward chassis is a easy way to keep us buying stuff.

For example a typical father and son want to go racing so to buy two chassis kits £640.00

Yokomo YZ-2 - Now Available to Pre-Order

Our Price £319.99 - Stock Due Jan 2015

Everyone can vote for a change of rules at the brca agm if they attend and get enough votes to pass it.

The cost of the rc kits/motors/batteries/radio equipment hasnt gone up that much over the 20 years i have been racing, i think its cheaper than ever before, but its still an expensive hobby

[DCM]

2wd kit costs have gone up, plus with mid motor, tyre wear has also gone up to.

[cmgreen]

Not much tho. Agree on tyres, but that's cos we are going faster ;)

[fidspeed]

having raced for twenty years now I would say its never been so cheap to race (having spent £50 pound a set on matched nicads x 6sets 50 pound a brushed motor that didn't last very long and speedos at £150 each )

nowadays we can all be "as fast as each other a lot cheaper " Note speed doens't make a great driver but it does level up the playing field good drivers will always make it to the top

tyre costs are probably the biggest issue which as has been said is down to the surfaces we run on
Astro need little maintenance and anything that assists our hard pressed officials to run a meeting for us to race at will always help,without the volunteers were scuppered !!FACT


RC has never been cheap but pit against premier league footy match or full size motor racing meeting its value for money

regards dave

[DCM]

Being one of them 'hard pressed race officials' the cost in time of running Astro and grass is about the same really, the time it takes to make an astro track and then the week to week maintenance etc...

[alex97]

The main cost of racing is tires and might be a big off putter for new people or people who want to race more (me), I'm not saying that the company's should lower the prices but it might attract more people if the price was lower so they'd sell more and the shops would do better selling models/ rc thing's (its a big gamble). Another way to lower the cost might be to limit the amount of tires that people can use each meeting (this might already be in effect) or have a longer lasting tire but that effect sales for isn't a great option for the shops.

Bit off topic I know.

[dodgydiy]

please nobody start suggesting limitations on gearboxes again. my homemade mid 2wd is a damn slight easier to drive than the b4 it is based on, gearbox is from an old tc3 tourer i had hanging around so obviously this would not be reversable. theres no way i would go out and buy another car if they stopped use of this type of gearbox, i would be back to the b4 chassis and really pissed off. dont impose more construction rules, i know i am not at the competetive end of things, but if you want to limit costs just limit tyres! limit the number of sets a driver can use in a meeting, have seen drivers mount new sets for every race before now. if you limit tyres then that also places limits on the chassis layout and setups that can be used as if they are too aggressive the car wont work.

[MHeadling]

Dug this out and raced it on Faversham's astro, was pretty good against the modern mid/front motor cars, was good fun and jumped really well

http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy114/headling/8CD1AC16-7057-462F-A6DF-AF7EFE8F66FD_1.jpg (http://s783.photobucket.com/user/headling/media/8CD1AC16-7057-462F-A6DF-AF7EFE8F66FD_1.jpg.html)

[mark christopher]

Now the world's are allowing astro I doubt rear motor will survive, it will be mid or front from now on

[Razer]

My current opinion and rule change I'd love to see:

Rear motor buggies only. 2wd Buggy should be a car designed to handle both high and low grip with the same car, and the motor would need to be within a certain distance behind the driving axle.

A rule change that will never happen globally, no matter how fun it would be. I am certainly not one against development, but I am against rules that makes having at least two if not even three different 2wheelers with you to any race "necessary"...

What is good with the development right now?

Well, with Yokomo and Yatabe arena making the push for an Astro worlds, and the release for a new midmotor only YZ-2, is the fact that they seem to be pushing for a racing world where only one kind of 2 wheel drive layout is needed. Simplicity is key IMO, and if all racing in the world was on astro, we would hopefully be back to where manufacturers won't bother offering you three different chassis for one class.

[mark christopher]

My current opinion and rule change I'd love to see:

Rear motor buggies only. 2wd Buggy should be a car designed to handle both high and low grip with the same car, and the motor would need to be within a certain distance behind the driving axle.

A rule change that will never happen globally, no matter how fun it would be. I am certainly not one against development, but I am against rules that makes having at least two if not even three different 2wheelers with you to any race "necessary"...

What is good with the development right now?

Well, with Yokomo and Yatabe arena making the push for an Astro worlds, and the release for a new midmotor only YZ-2, is the fact that they seem to be pushing for a racing world where only one kind of 2 wheel drive layout is needed. Simplicity is key IMO, and if all racing in the world was on astro, we would hopefully be back to where manufacturers won't bother offering you three different chassis for one class.

How many full size of on road or off road cars have the engine behind the rear axle?

[Razer]

How many full size of on road or off road cars have the engine behind the rear axle?

First of all, why should we care? It's not like our cars have great scale appearance...

Second of all, when I googled, most full size buggies seem to have their motors either behind or on top of their rear axle.

[mark christopher]

First of all, why should we care? It's not like our cars have great scale appearance...

Second of all, when I googled, most full size buggies seem to have their motors either behind or on top of their rear axle.

And they race on what surface?

[Origineelreclamebord]

Do you really want to go back to the situation of several years ago: Very few manufacturers and one dominant one, little innovation and changes in the design. Sure I bet racing was fun back then, but design-wise it was a pretty boring class.

A standard class is nice for close racing, but consider this: When the stakes are high enough, racers or manufacturers will find ways to bypass regulations to go quicker, so to keep the playing field level, either everyone must implement these bypasses, or they should be forbidden. Before you know it, racers will implement approaches to going quicker that are very hard to prohibit as they are difficult to control - a nice example is the whole tire situation around the last EFRA Euros, or the amount of trouble people go to to have a dominant pace in stock classes :thumbdown: Is that really what you want the 2WD Buggy class to go to?

Looking back to the whole goal of standardisation, it is to make the field more closely matched. Of course, regulations that are too open will mean that a big budget will allow you to buy a car for every surface, but you can't equal out differences with regulations entirely... so don't, it will only add grief to a sport that's intended for the highest fun-factor.

Instead, I think Janus' comment to restrict the amount of different cars someone is allowed to run at one event (or even during a racing season) is quite a clever one :) Also, here's an idea from me: Make seperate series for high-bite and low-bite tracks, or clay/dirt and artificial surfaces - that also prevents the confusion of what sort of car to run, especially in combination with restrictions in switching cars during an event.

[dodgydiy]

who says 2wd mid doesnt work on low grip, mine is easier to drive on low grip than my b4 is by a long way. they can work, you just need to set them up, also where is the motor on the icelandic off road buggies and the desert buggies, they are all mid and front!

[Taro98]

I think there should be a rule which where the motor can be on the car e.g 500mm mid motor and 250mm rear or any other mesurement which facilitates either a mid or rear motored car without extra cost of a conversion kit etc.
therefore this would add challenge in terms of driving the car and also most cars being competitive out of the box rather than dishing out more money on a conversion kit to make the car competitive on astroturf or any other surface. therefore saving both money and more racing enjoyment and a equal field to be running in.

[TARTMAN]

2wd = rear wheels driven.

4wd = all 4 wheels driven....

where the motor is positioned, does not matter.

same as a 4wd with front diff/shafts removed becomes a 2wd.

END OF.:p:p

anything else on the subject is just pointless chit chat and means nothing.

OUT!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumb sup:

[dodgydiy]

now, just to stir things up, i think originalreclaimbord would disagree strongly with that last statement.... 2wd, one pair of wheels driven only, there are such things as front wheel drive cars you know, he is developing one properly and there are several others with one off prototypes having great fun with them

[mitsirfishi]

Does it really matter ? in the wet I find i can squirt on the power better. all comes down to personal preference

If the difference was as dramatic putting a piston engine against rotary engine. then everything would be mid motor.

[Timee80]

I know it's not faster but I also prefer the feel of a rear motored buggy. Which rm buggy would everyone advice for use on carpet. I know it's not the best layout for this type of track but which is the best of the bunch would you say?

[adey]

I personally feel that you should buy the layout you feel suits you and the tracks you race on most. Learn how to set it up and have fun.

[Ashlandchris]

I know I am only recently back in rc, so not the best qualified to answer, but I recently switched my bmax2 to rm layout and switched to plastic chassis from the worlds alloy I normally use. I have to say that the few indoor (slippery) meets I have run at in rm layout have been superb fun. I know my set up is not good and my driving even worse, but it is genuinely great fun to drive knowing that the back end is swinging out at the corners.

I'd not object to the original hypothesis, but know that it is only a topic for discussion :thumbsup:

[keenbutkrap]

there is no way you can buy a win you can either drive or you can't buying a new chassis every week wont get you any skill. practice with any chassis will beat trying to buy a win

[AC199]

there is no way you can buy a win you can either drive or you can't buying a new chassis every week wont get you any skill. practice with any chassis will beat trying to buy a win

Here here!!

[Origineelreclamebord]

2wd = rear wheels driven.

now, just to stir things up, i think originalreclaimbord would disagree strongly with that last statement.... 2wd, one pair of wheels driven only, there are such things as front wheel drive cars you know, he is developing one properly and there are several others with one off prototypes having great fun with them

I strongly disagree indeed, but the fact I'm developing a FWD is not the only reason - see here (link (http://www.oople.com/forums/showpost.php?p=890274&postcount=60)) my earlier post.

On a regular basis I come across the problem that the majority of regulations are (still) written in the assumption that all 2WDs are rear wheel drive.

As such for example, regulated tires are often stated by 'rear' and 'front', not 'driven axles.' It's a bit weird, considering it would be sufficient to state that drivers should use one pair of '(2WD) front' tires on the car, and one pair of 'rear' tires - so it's logical to put the wider tires on the axles with which you put the power down - It's highly unlikely that a RWD buggy will go faster with the wide tires up front and the narrow ones on the back, or any 2WD buggy with two wide tires on one side... so why ban it!? Anyone bold (and bonkers :) ) enough to try it out will give everyone a good laugh, and if it results in a race win with it that driver deserves that prize! :lol:

[wbridge]

Ive read these posts , with curiosity ........ I have recently returned to racing and see allot has changed....

I will most likely be running a cougar Kr on astro turf when i start next season in belgium, allot of surprised looks from ppl seeing its a rear motored car, In my understanding its just about weight distibution and balance of the car on certain tracks and that is the question....... is not about the set up of each car depending on the motor position? in which case does it really matter where the motor is? after all a good setup on any car is gonna help ie a badly set up mid motored car in my guess will struggle against a rear motered car thats got a good set up ( driving skill not taken into account) on astro and vise versa.

take what car you have and do your best with it no matter the track type regardless of where the motor sits , matters not to me

[dodgydiy]

as wbridge says, its all setup, any 2wd with a spot on setup will be faster than one thats a bit unstable, and the abilities of most of these chassis be it rear, mid or front motor far exceeds the majority of our driving abilities, its only the real top line world champ level drivers that might benefit by a tenth of a second. so many people say oh but i am this much faster with car x than car y, but how much work did they do in making the car right for their driving style in the first place

[CARB]

Ive read these posts , with curiosity ........ I have recently returned to racing and see allot has changed....

I will most likely be running a cougar Kr on astro turf when i start next season in belgium, allot of surprised looks from ppl seeing its a rear motored car, In my understanding its just about weight distibution and balance of the car on certain tracks and that is the question....... is not about the set up of each car depending on the motor position? in which case does it really matter where the motor is? after all a good setup on any car is gonna help ie a badly set up mid motored car in my guess will struggle against a rear motered car thats got a good set up ( driving skill not taken into account) on astro and vise versa.

take what car you have and do your best with it no matter the track type regardless of where the motor sits , matters not to me


You are in for a big dissapointment if you think a KR on Astro can be set up to come anywhere close to a mid motor car, but go for for it.

[mattr]

A really really well set up rear motor car, with a really good driver, who doesn't make any mistakes will not be a huge amount faster than an average set up, average driver using a mid/front motored car.

The biggest advantage i found was not how quick it was, but how forgiving, with rear motor the wrong line or a minor slip would see you disappearing into the bushes backwards at speed, with mid/front, you just get abit squirrelly, then correct and continue.

[Adam F]

You are in for a big dissapointment if you think a KR on Astro can be set up to come anywhere close to a mid motor car, but go for for it.

Up until a few years ago they were all rear motor and went round pretty well..

If the car was set up well it would be fine. Having seen them run on ultra high grip astro at Silverstome they can pefform well and hold their own against the mids..

[wbridge]

Up until a few years ago they were all rear motor and went round pretty well..

If the car was set up well it would be fine. Having seen them run on ultra high grip astro at Silverstome they can pefform well and hold their own against the mids..

Agreed. I have seen rear motered cars do reasonably well against others. In my old days mind. I don't see why they won't now. I don't know why the kr will be that disappointing if the set up is good and i can drive it well. If it is then i also have an sv2 . but i would like to try rear motor . kr was designed for low grip but if done right may also work on other surfaces.

[MHeadling]

I was at Off road wars last winter and in my me round of qualifying a few of the A final guys tried their rear motor cars

Darren Bloomfield (then TLR) and Ellis (then Durango) got their rear motor cars round very well indeed, they were 0.2 a sec a lap off their mid motor cars but looked a bit more hard work to pedal round the track

[SlowOne]

Anything can be made to work well providing the design is continually updated. Look at a rear-motor Porsche 911 with the motor hanging out of the back, or any front wheel drive car with the motor hanging out of the front - both are a triumph of engineering over design.

There is no reason that a rear-engine car cannot be made fast, but it is easier to fiddle around with the weight distribution on a model car as the fine tolerances required to engineer a proper suspension for a rear-motor car are just unobtainable at our scale. You can scale any dimensions, but not the Laws of Physics.

As this thread meanders on it becomes more irrelevant by the post. Two-wheel drive under the current rules is simply that - two driven wheels. At the last AGM the Off-Road section couldn't muster enough people to fill a call box, so that gives you some idea how many people actually care about this subject. Drive two wheels and drive your car; it's as simple as that.

Posts from Tartman and Keenbutcrap say all there is to say on the subject; end of...

[Ritchie T]

I was going to make the point that there was nothing cheap about bloomfields wins and if you believe he didn't have ALL available cars in his van just in case then you're all mad:p


But its irrelevant how many cars he had in his van, if you wanted to compete you only needed to buy 1 car.

[wbridge]

I was at Off road wars last winter and in my me round of qualifying a few of the A final guys tried their rear motor cars

Darren Bloomfield (then TLR) and Ellis (then Durango) got their rear motor cars round very well indeed, they were 0.2 a sec a lap off their mid motor cars but looked a bit more hard work to pedal round the track

Just goes to show that rear motered cars can still be competitive .even if its harder work

[TARTMAN]

I think it states in the BRCA rules, that 2wd is rear wheels driven hence why I said rear. but stand to be corrected....

personally I don't give a damn what axle is driven. As where you put the motor. or your servo.
or what you run, brushed, brushless, nicads, lipos, your own made rubber band suspension. lol.....

2wd = 2 wheels driven..... that better? :lol::lol::lol::p

and front wheel drive in competitive off road does not exist so sort of a pointless moan really......... if that changes then great, but find me a racer that runs a 2wd front wheels driven? (and I mean races, nit developing)....

bored now........... out.

[tellor]

In the 2015 IFMAR rules for the off road worlds it states that if a 2wd drive is front wheel drive then it has to race against the 4wd cars

Surely 2wd drive is 2wd....

[wbridge]

I thought this was about motor position :p, where do the top drivers stand on this subject?

[/tobys]

Have a look at the cars they drive, that should answer your question.

[wbridge]

haha yes silly question sorry :p

[Steve.T]

perhaps there should be a rear motor only class at the nationals or an oople rear motor only meeting

[mark christopher]

perhaps there should be a rear motor only class at the nationals or an oople rear motor only meeting

there is at oople !! its called rc10 gold tub

[Southwell]

Electric installs would certainly be easier, ah the good ol' days!

[wbridge]

Electric installs would certainly be easier, ah the good ol' days!
indeed it would , i hate soldering at best an rear moter makes it easier to work with for me

[Timee80]

I'd like to see 17.5t and rear motor common place at most clubs like the yanks do it. Most cars are far too over powered in my opinion and rear motor is more rewarding to drive anyway. It will never happen though