Todays Driving standards and the 'Xbox Generation'

[mark-rc]

OK, so today I had a good days racing turn into a bad day, due to the driving standards at my local club race meeting. I was so cheesed off that I felt the need to say something, as I feel the problem is not just 'up north' of the country! And I'm wondering if it's like this in other parts of the UK?

Now maybe I'm old school, and I drive with a sense of fair play, If I tag someone and put them on there lid or off the track, I wait and give them the position back! even if it's at my cost of a position! After racing competitively for well over 25 years, I have been around long enough to see how the hobby has changed, both positively and negatively. Car's and equipment are better and faster! But over the passed few years, I have noticed something that is a worry to me, that the current crop of driver's and even more so the young drivers 'the xbox generation', are missing something from racing that makes racing RC Cars 'FUN', while some are gifted with the ability to drive a car around the track at a very fast pace, 'from what I have noticed' they nearly all are missing the ability to overtake cleanly and hold back until the opportunity to overtake happens! They have no sense of fair play, only a 'win at all cost' attitude! Now, while we all want to win our races, there is 'or used to be' a skill or art to racing! I remember watching 'and racing in' races where drivers would drive around the track 'to the best of there abilities' bumper to bumper, the skill was in putting the car in front under enough pressure that they would make a mistake, and you would do a clean over take! And if you were the car in front, the skill was trying to drive a defensive line, but if you tagged the car in front, more often than not you were told to give the place back, and in most cases you would give it back automatically out of a sense of fairness. But these day's it's more like, 'If I hit the car in front and gain the position then that's all the matters!' I need to win!. And what's so upsetting, is there seems to be nothing being done as regards to driving standards. I see to many times the parents of a kid going off there heads at someone for tagging there kid's car, yet when there kid does the same thing they stand there and say nothing! I've race at many club's all over, and it seems to now be a common theme of 'bad driving standards' at almost every club you go to! While we all want and need young up and coming drivers, for the sake of the hobby, surely every club 'and parent' should be doing there bit to instill into these drivers/kid's, that racing is not just about getting your car around the track as fast as you can, but also doing it in the 'Right' manner! We all put a lot of time and money in to our hobby, and I feel it's unfair that so many racers go home from a race meeting, fed up and cheesed off, because there car got used as a battering ram!:thumbdown:

[chrispattinson]

Your post is well put, and captured the real essence and fun of racing .... The art of race craft. The degredation of this is not something I agree is evident at races I've seen.
Racers I race against are more than courteous, and while racecraft is still being learned by the youngns with our help, I do see respect for the rules, respect for the lessons we are trying to reach them, and in general, as respectful racing as can be expected from them.
Some great examples of this at Benfield today in the seniors through to juniors aged from 4.
Sorry you were a victim though of a win at all costs driver ... Its a bitter taste. However, I was recently on the receiving end of very courteous and sportsman like behaviour from someone waiting after an incident, and being on the receiving end of that was a highlight of the race meeting.

[mark-rc]

Hi Chris, you comment of 'I was recently on the receiving end of very courteous and sportsman like behaviour from someone waiting after an incident, and being on the receiving end of that was a highlight of the race meeting', add's to my point, your totally correct, in that part of what make the hobby 'fun' is not just about when you win, but also even if something happens, so long as there is 'Fairness' from both drivers involved in the incident, you still go home with a sense of enjoyment! :thumbsup:

Sadly, at nearly all the 'local' club's I race at, one of the things you hear on a regular basis is 'the driving standards are disgraceful' :cry:

[quincey]

I too have been on the recieving end of bad driving..but mine was from better drivers,I've had drivers who we're lapping me take me off the track because I didn't get out the way fast enough..I know I may never win an A final but it really does ruin your day when some idiot who should know better rams you off the track!...like I know their under pressure to win but I'm also racing for places....luckily enough I just race for fun now...

[Jedward]

I don't race myself, never have, but I have two sons aged 8 & 11 from the Xbox generation who do. Like alot of kids they are impatient and naturally want to go fast and win, but I'm constantly telling them to go slower to go faster, let faster drivers past and be patient when overtaking. They are works-in-progress but we are getting there. I am not the only Dad either who encourages their budding Neil Cragg to do the right thing. :thumbsup:.

Sadly it sounds like it's the 'big kids' who are letting themselves and the hobby down, and some of them take it way too seriously for what it is, a money-no-object attitude and tearing a strip off their kid when they don't perform as expected!
We are lucky to have Benfield buggy club near us and they have the right attitude with regards to the kids. :thumbsup:

[cmgreen]

I have seen this all over the country, some times it's an genuine accident some times it's not. Shame but I dunno what we can do about it except have a ref watching every heat/final?

[beale]

It is a very difficult subject, I agree if you cause a crash you should 'offer' the position back at least. We have a small local club where this works and we try to Instill this on the newbies be it young or old. We have taken active approaches in slowing drivers down and with 2 young drivers it was a necessity it's taken a year but 1 has grasped it and the other is almost there.
I have a 4 year old with me now at every meeting but he knows he can't race until he can get around the track without crashing (Mardave wound down as slow as you can for it to still move) he is getting the throttle business but steering is a struggle cos his hands are so small, we practice at home around cones.
Our club members all act as refs and give constructive criticism to bad drivers after each race and even test run their cars to check its not mechanical, non of us are perfect but if we can all improve together racing is cheaper and more fun!!

[dazp83]

I have to say the racing at stotfold and herts and the couple times I've raced at three counties has always been fair and I always move out the way as do others for me. I've never heard any complaints. Though the abuse marshals get is out of order

[brooksy]

First of all I'd just like to say up front I'm not having a go at ANYBODY who runs a club meeting. It takes a lot of time and effort to organise a club meet.

Many years ago I used to go to a weekly club meet near where I live. Myself and a friend used to set the track up every week,design it as we went along whilst the guy who actually acquired the venue had a shop and ran race control. Myself and my mate took it upon ourselves to keep an eye on as many races as possible between our racing. On a couple of occasions we had to stop people from...shall we say,a coming together!.

Sadly,today I don't see this at many meets I go to. But at the same time the Mid East area where I race is not that bad. I don't think I've ever seen any major arguments.

[SlowOne]

I have seen this all over the country, some times it's an genuine accident some times it's not. Shame but I dunno what we can do about it except have a ref watching every heat/final?Come to a 12th National - that's exactly what we do.

In agreeing with all the comments about poor driving, is it really the 'X Box' generation? IME, it is anyone who is ignorant and rude, of whatever age. More importantly, it has got worse as the cars have got faster over the last few years what with BL motors and oodles of capacity in LiPo cells.

No one will listen to the argument that it all needs slowing down. In the US they make extensive use of 17.5 and 13.5 motors in all electric classes. Ok, they do have smaller tracks at most of their clubs, but nonetheless they have lower-power on the whole.

We have referees for every heat and final in 12th Nationals. It is one way that we help drivers get the best from their racing, and how we teach them the fastest way round the track for their eight minutes. It works.

At clubs the idea above that club officials and experienced drivers should help drivers with having fun and learning to race effectively is great. There are too many drivers in too much of a hurry or having too little control over too fast a car. The answer may be to help them drive better, but it also lies in the speed of the cars - they need to be slower to give everyone a chance to race instead of just hanging on.

[Superstar]

Im glad someone has brought this topic up as I too have felt similar for a long time now but when ever Iv mentioned it, the subject falls on deaf ears.

When I was a kid starting out in the late 90's then into the early 2000's it was very different. I mean kids still did the things they do today but race directors and generally other club members would step in. If I rammed someone off the track I was made to know that wasn't on. Race directors would give me a good telling off. My granddad who took me racing would say basically, if you drive like that we wont be coming next week so if I had done a dirty move I was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't on and the threat of no racing next week was a BIG deal :p

Im not going to name names as that isn't fair but there are kids who are very quick and get quick fast. This isn't a new concept and it was the same as when I was a kid and Im pretty sure the same for most people on this forum. BUT now when they come up behind someone and just push them out the the way I look across to their parents and they don't bat an eyelid. They seem to think it is just normal and part of racing. The kid doesn't get told off and it is accepted as the norm. This has been happening for some time now and if there is no education then how will they know any different. IMO it also spreads and it isn't just kids these days that drive like d...s!

One theory I have is I believe it has something to do with the demise of club racing. Now I know people will pipe up and say 'My club is running fine right now etc etc' but its a very regional thing. Back when I was a kid it was nearly possible to race every day of the week with tones of very strong clubs all over the place. Now if I want to go to a club meeting I have to travel around 45 mins to an hour to about 3 clubs within that distance. There are so many 'big' meetings happening that people generally don't seem to attend a club week in week out. Now when I was starting out for years I would race against the same people and see the same people every week. We would then organise going to these one off meeting together and we became a little group who would look out for each others race results and have a general laugh together. There were other kids my age who id chat to about racing and 'well so and so said its wrong to hit some one else and just drive off'.

So what Im trying to say is it was acknowledged bad driving was no acceptable and I had coaching from all directions. I don't really know why it is but it does seem that kids today are not being told about driving standards and taught what is right and wrong. Thats my 2 pence anyways

[JohnM]

While I'll agree with most of the comments so far, I don't think it's completely fair to pin it just on kids, I did the Veterans class at the F2s this year & some of those old boys were brutal! Maybe it was bad eye sight to blame, but I remember very few clean passing moves.

[Aire valley]

Being one of the older drivers..! (Vintage never mind veteran) I have seen a lot over the 30 plus years of taking part...and ,personally I quite like driving with the young drivers, because you can talk to them both before and during the race about driving cleanly, and, generally they listen..! Doesn't always work with more mature drivers who should know better..
Generally speaking, driving standards depend on being monitored...yes, there are some "gentlemanly" drivers, but quite a few who are not. Back in the day, when we had "issues", a chief Marshall/ referee was appointed, usually a club committee member , to point out poor driving, and if necessary issue penalties, loss of fastest time etc.. This invariably worked...a bit like the 12 th scale system mentioned above.

[neallewis]

I feel older racers have a duty to engage with the younger racers and help them develop their driving etiquette. Rather than moaning about it, have a discussion with them about what they can do to improve and show a bit more respect to other racers. The kids are the future, and for me its always a pleasure to see them do well, and have them beat me (which is more often than not).

I know at our local clubs some of the younger kids had the win at all costs mentality, but they have worked on it with help of their Parent/guardian, other racers encouragement and communication on the rostrum. Now they are a pleasure to race with and their performance is really progressing.

I've also been on the receiving end of the tag-team brothers who inspired this discussion, but it's not only/just the kids. Sometimes it just what happens at a particular club, so they are just doing what the adults do.

One thing I noticed at a recent trip to the EOS in Poland, lots of the young kids were absolutely flying but did literally drive right though you, even if you pulled aside to let them past. Also spinning wheels full pelt was common when they crashed and were hoping to be marshalled. Stuff that's easily corrected at club level. Discussing this some some of the Polish locals, it was evident that they didn't really do local club racing, but just travelled Europe to compete in the big meetings, where of course there are lots of different languages and cultures to deal with, on the rostrum. My point is it should be easier here in UK at your local club, to help the local kids work it out.

[Allan1875]

I am also of the generation where you take someone out, you wait, no matter if it's an international or club meeting.

Penalties just need to be handed out when this type of driving is spotted.

[nivek]

I can understand your concerns . Lets hope the next time you race things are better , I like Neal race with juniors ,and i have to say that its a pleasure .
I was clipped by accident by a junior at the last round of Chadderton he stopped waited for me to go and then set off ,At the end of the race he came upto me and said sorry , How often do you hear the word sorry or a driver stop to give you your place back , Has the sport changed that much in 25 years .

[Click]

This is a really interesting discussion.

I'm involved in a small club and we have racers ranging in age from 7 up to 70:thumbsup:

I think the phrase 'work in progress' is a great one for our younger racers. With patience & time + backup from the parent (usually the dad) guidance can be given to improve their 'racecraft'. It's great when you see a young driver go from bashing the car around the track to a fast and courteous racer:D

The more difficult end of the scale is the older racer who should know better but drives through other racers to get around the track or uses other cars as a brake!! In a small club its extremely difficult to tackle racers like this, we try & give constructive feedback, some listen, some don't!. We do have a ‘clubman’ class which is blinky + 10.5t max so that helps with newbee’s.

We constantly joke about a bunch of grown men playing with toy cars, just to remind ourselves we do this for FUN:p

There's a fine line between a racing incident & poor driving, my rule is if I see a racer continually driving in a poor manner then we tend to have a word or apply a penalty and explain why they got it.In my own driving if I bump/hit a car by accident I will always say sorry about that on the podium & if I’ve flipped the other persons car I’ll wait, most of the time the other driver will just say go ahead & don’t wait.

It can be exhausting trying to run a race day; you also need to race, work on your car & deal with other racers driving standards and complaints about each other!, sure what else would you do with your Sunday :D:p:D

I find that certain racers get all wound up when it comes to championship days and race as if their life depends on the end result. We all want to do well + we are all competitive by nature but there are other racers on the track also trying to enjoy their racing & it is up to you to get around them & be a better driver.

I’d have to say, we sometimes tend to look at the past with rose tinted glasses :-) The younger drivers today are not all bad, in fact I find most of them are fine as long as your willing to put a bit of time into them & you get the support of their parent(s) which unfortunately is not always the case :-(

[Noob]

It's in the sports best interest to support younger drivers (and older starters), it's up to the 'veterans' to promote driver courtesy and club organisers to get the point across, not forgetting safety very important.

[Richard Lowe]

In my experience unsportsmanlike driving can go right the way up the ranks to 10th national A finals, you learn after a while who you can actually race and who you have to be aggressive with. Generally the leading battle is ok, but if you're towards the back where the ref tends not to watch it's basically anything goes :(

I too have been on the recieving end of bad driving..but mine was from better drivers,I've had drivers who we're lapping me take me off the track because I didn't get out the way fast enough..I know I may never win an A final but it really does ruin your day when some idiot who should know better rams you off the track!...like I know their under pressure to win but I'm also racing for places....luckily enough I just race for fun now...
I had issues similar to this at the last West Bridgford meeting I went to, it's not always as easy as people think to get round slower cars when there's a large speed difference, from the faster drivers perspective they're already at the maximum of what the car can do. With the exception of driving down the straights the car is either turning or braking on it's limits and sometimes to ask it to do even more with little or no warning as the slower car unpredictably changes line or slams on the brakes is too much to ask of it.

[Ashlandchris]

I had issues similar to this at the last West Bridgford meeting I went to, it's not always as easy as people think to get round slower cars when there's a large speed difference, from the faster drivers perspective they're already at the maximum of what the car can do. With the exception of driving down the straights the car is either turning or braking on it's limits and sometimes to ask it to do even more with little or no warning as the slower car unpredictably changes line or slams on the brakes is too much to ask of it.

But this then is a double edged sword. I recently came back to RC after a 30yr lay off and I know I am not as quick a driver as many (all?) of the others on the track. I am concentrating on consistently getting round the track before turning the wick up a bit, and I am constantly aware of other quicker cars coming up to lap me. I always try to move over, or take an outside line to allow them to get through, but there have been a few instances where someone has ploughed into me followed by the cry from the rostrum "oh, for ***** sake, why don't you learn to drive".
I always apologise (even though I'm not certain it is my fault), but am not entirely sure what the alternative is. I don't want to "race" someone if I'm being lapped, but equally there isn't always an obvious "racing line" to avoid when being overtaken.
I know this is a bit off thread as the OP was about wheel to wheel racing and not lapping, but I just thought I'd add my comments.

[Richard Lowe]

But this then is a double edged sword.
Yep 100% agreed, I was just trying to bring the other side of the story to quincey's experience :)

[SlowOne]

I sympathise with Chris Ashland's view on letting people pass when being lapped. It has to be one of the simplest rules in all motor racing - pass on the inside; be passed on the inside. One almost never hears it.

In qualifying, both drivers need to slow down. The driver being passed needs to move to the outside and slow down, and the driver passing needs to move to the inside and slow down. You need complete control of the car to avoid a collision and to account for the fact that neither driver is gong to be millimetre perfect on track position.

IME, the passing driver fails to slow down, misses the apex by a country mile, collides with the other driver who is doing their best and then asks others to learn to drive! In qualifying, it is important that both cars slow down, even if for a fraction of a second, in order to give both drivers the best chance of qualifying high. When it comes to a final, then being lapped means pull over and virtually park your car to let the faster driver through!

When both drivers slow down and execute a clean pass, then both get the chance to stay closer to the racing line and get a better time. It helps if you call to the other driver and tell them what you are going to do, but that isn't always possible. Practice passing and being passed on a club night.

[corsair]

I don't think it is just the "xbox generation". The "nintendo and sega" generation are guilty of this too..

[Ashlandchris]

I sympathise with Chris Ashland's view on letting people pass when being lapped. It has to be one of the simplest rules in all motor racing - pass on the inside; be passed on the inside. One almost never hears it.

In qualifying, both drivers need to slow down. The driver being passed needs to move to the outside and slow down, and the driver passing needs to move to the inside and slow down. You need complete control of the car to avoid a collision and to account for the fact that neither driver is gong to be millimetre perfect on track position.

IME, the passing driver fails to slow down, misses the apex by a country mile, collides with the other driver who is doing their best and then asks others to learn to drive! In qualifying, it is important that both cars slow down, even if for a fraction of a second, in order to give both drivers the best chance of qualifying high. When it comes to a final, then being lapped means pull over and virtually park your car to let the faster driver through!

When both drivers slow down and execute a clean pass, then both get the chance to stay closer to the racing line and get a better time. It helps if you call to the other driver and tell them what you are going to do, but that isn't always possible. Practice passing and being passed on a club night.

Thank you - that is helpful advice.

[SlowOne]

I don't think it is just the "xbox generation". The "nintendo and sega" generation are guilty of this too..Some of us from the 'Saga' generation aren't blameless either! :D :D

[qatmix]

Its simply what you are taught. My son is only 11 and he has better race craft than a lot of 'grown ups'

At my local club everyone gets a gentle reminder if they are not playing ball. If not we stick them in the beginners heat

[SlowOne]

Its simply what you are taught. My son is only 11 and he has better race craft than a lot of 'grown ups'

At my local club everyone gets a gentle reminder if they are not playing ball. If not we stick them in the beginners heatWhat, so they can show the beginners how it's done? A punishment requiring a re-think perhaps...? :thumbdown:

[jrenton]

You cannot blame the kids. My son is 12 and has an xBox, Wii and Nintendo DS and is a much more courteous driver than I am at 41 :)

[Ritchie T]

The guy being lapped shouldnt affect the pace of the guy coming past at all really, so id disagree they should both slow down, obviously sometimes in awkward places you may have to buy generally...

[MattK]

I think there has always been good and bad drivers in this great hobby of ours.
I do think for young drivers coming into the hobby it's too easy to get all the power and speed of top drivers without the experience of learning the basics first. If you look at 1/10th buggys for example you used to start with a basic kit with manual speed controllers, 1300 batteries and silver can motors. The majority of clubs at the time ran stock motor rules and as your kit broke you would upgrade step by step. Now you go go as fast as an old 16 turn motor using fairly basic brushless and Lipo cells.
Its great the hobby is cheaper and people are not at a disadvantage because they can't get team cells.
The down side is what use to be the old "all the gear and no idea" setup but without the outlay of cash.
I love watching the New drivers learning, but recently the speed and quantity of crashes is slightly worrying.
I don't know how you get around these problems, just my personal observations.

[qatmix]

What, so they can show the beginners how it's done? A punishment requiring a re-think perhaps...? :thumbdown:

:eh?: Let me explain it a little more

The beginners are all taught good driving standards at our club. They learn that if you do not show good race craft that you stay in that heat, no matter how fast you are. If a driver in a higher heat persistently shows that they are not driving fairly they go back into a lower heat.

Its a clear message, its fair and it doesn't let anyone be too big for their boots. That is probably why the club has been successful for a long time (30+ years) with a great atmosphere, a large range of drivers young and old and good overall driving standards. :thumbsup:

[fil9144]

I have raced on and off for many years now and always taken the enjoyment from it being my hobby and building the car then racing it.
Myself as a parent would never teach my children to come 2 nd or last but there is a sense that racing and doing it the right way to get the full enjoyment is something clubs should look at.

I have seen many adults take the hobby far to seriously and remember being shouted at by a 30 year when I was 14. I think adults have a responsablity to lead be example and hope the young guys take note and clubs should play a big part in that also.

I totally agree with what a lot of mark says because I have had my car badly damaged twice now and once before my final were I then couldn't take part and was parked on my grid place. I am quite a chilled person tho and think surly simple basic rules from clubs would help....

[smokes]

I am one of the slow driving 30 years old that has tagged the old young back marker even though I have shouted yellow car lapping blue care etc and tried to slow down enough to to give them time to move out of the way.

It is frustrating to tag them as you lose time and lose your position. If someone is lapping me I go wide off the racing line the check who behind me before continuing on.

[s22jgs]

Personally I don't think its a generation issue.

I see awesome fair driving from 6 year olds, and 60 year olds alike.

Likewise I see proper **** standards from 6 year olds and 60 year olds alike.

It is also not a level of driver issue. I see complete muppets behind the sticks that fall into both the above categories. I also see some of the worlds top drivers falling into both categories.

The simple fact of the matter is some people have respect for those they are racing with. Others, couldnt give a crap about them, or how much it might cost someone to repair the car they just shunted off the track.

[Cliveyp]

As above, this is not an age-related issue at all. Much like their 1:1 versions, you get good and bad at all ages with RC. I 'retired' from racing around 11 years ago, after a good stint of 1/10 off-road and then moving into TC's apanning around 13 years. I came out of retirement around 18 months ago in TC's, kicking buggies back off last year and now just about to move into GT12. In that time, standards have changed fairly dramatically.

As with a lot of the above, when I started as a lowly 11-12 year old, it was drummed into you that you gave way to faster cars, looked ahead (this one is a major gripe of mine at the moment), and treated the other cars with respect, and generally thats what happened. My dad was one of the first to jump on me if I started to get reckless. Now i've come back and started to work my way back up from the bottom of the pack i've noticed more and more issues.....and they tend to be with the faster drivers of all ages. As I moved up through the lower ranks, I found a couple of 'problem drivers', but these were normally passed off with a quick apology - sometimes both ways if it was hard to determine who was at fault - and we carried on. As I've got nearer the top end of the field at club level, i've found a certain cluster of drivers who seems to resent the fact that you have started intefering in their races. These all have the same traits....impatient when it comes to lapping, often barging through on their line without thought to tracking you for a few corners to give you an opportunity to move; what can only be described as hatred should you ever actually get in front of them (or attempt to) which involves them wiping you out at the first opportunity; and my major gripe, the inability to look past the nose of their car. When I 'learnt' to race, I was always told to keep an eye on the track ahead, mainly to save yourself if someone crashes. That doesnt seem to happen now, and you're expected to shout if you have crashed to warn oncoming cars.....now, as much as I find this makes some sort of sense, what ever happened to being able to see these crashed cars BEFORE you got close enough to hit them?!? I can't be the only one to still look ahead far enough to change line before I get there?!?!

[Rtsbasic]

I was at Torbay TRAC this Sunday gone for round 4, and enjoyed some really clean races both with drivers I know and people I don't. Age or generation isn't really a thing, there was 80+ cars racing that day with drivers from 10yrs old to possibly late 60's.

Everyone's experience will be different, even at the same event, but the average level of race craft I felt was really good. Don't recall getting tangled up with anyone when lapping or being lapped.

I've only got back into racing in the last few months and no doubt still have a mountain to learn, but being aware of what happens infront of you and keeping a mental note of different racers positions helps keep it clean for sure.