Why no spec classes in the UK?

[Chris Elworthy]

Hi lads,

Was just wondering whether anybody can speculate why in this country at 10th off road meetings from club to national level we run exclusively modified classes?
Obviously my comparison is with the USA where at all levels of racing you can choose modified or one of the spec blinky classes such as 10.5 and 13.5 motors. As many of you will agree with the current speed of the equipment available is really far beyond the control, certainly of the newer drivers but even seasoned drivers struggle to tame the power but continue with the powerplant in the risk of not keeping up.
Other than a talented few youngsters most fail to really master full car control and be able to then focus on improving driving style and racing lines as they are just too aggressive when running 7.5/6.5 motors especially in 4wd cars which can be plain dangerous to marshals etc.
As you may already have worked out I'm suggesting that it would be better for all if at least one spec motor class was to become common accross the country designed as a entry level class for drivers to learn but also a highly competitive class for the clubman who doesn't have a huge budget/sponsorship assistantance.

Obviously the formation of new classes/rules filters down from national level where it's currently a single class. I'm sure a reason why the BRCA wouldn't like the idea of running a spec national class alongside modified is that it would dilute the quality of the modified class but I'm not too sure. There have been spec classes in 10th onroad for years giving an option for drivers to compete nationally against people of similar ability without factory support, I believe there are similar classes offered in 1/8th IC too.

In my opinion there is a sense that you are just making the numbers up for the 30 or so potential A finalists and you disappear into the midfield of qualifying. Of course the standard is still good at national level even to the lower finals but it doesn't have the same kudos as qualifying for an A final in your respective class.

I'm aware that things are highly unlikely to change at national level but I'm interested to hear people's views on the subject.



Chris

[danDanEFC]

I suggest its because SPEC classes are full of cheats!! They are supposed to be entry level or reduced cost however all I read is that one thing is faster than all the rest and therefore if you haven't got that your nowhere.

With Mod Off-road if you want to be quicker just buy a quicker motor, no messing about required.

[Origineelreclamebord]

I recognize the problem, but... why not reduce the amount of power you can put down with lower grip? :) If the grip is low, pace will actually be slower in the corners and not just the straights, not to mention if it's not possible to put the power of a hot motor down onto the surface, people will start tuning down the power of their motors. Spec motors and ESCs will only reduce speed on the straights, and people will strive to find any tricks to increase their acceleration and speed, making the class more expensive, not to mention you'd need to check for a lot of items that are not regulatory...

[cjm_2008]

This reminds me of the good old days (early 2000s) where the '27t' classes used to make the bulk of off-road entries in my local regionals.

I also did a few rounds of the Tamiya Eurocup with a Mini (all running 540 silver can motors) and it was hilariously close, fun racing.

I've always been a fan of spec racing classes, especially if they keep costs down, but they do require strict policing (scruitineering) to work, as Origineelreclamebord points out.

We are operating in an unprecedented era of equality now anyway! Back in the day there were 'special' batteries, speedos & motors, and they all cost an absolute fortune if you could get hold of them. But regardless of the gear, talent always rises to the top.

[Chris Elworthy]

Some valid points made,

As for reducing the grip levels I for one would like to go back to slippier tracks but in order to race regularly and on a consistent surface astro is really the only option. Not to mention the huge amount of money and effort put in by clubs bringing their tracks up to spec.



If running in blinky mode with the same turn motor differences in speed should be marginal.

Chris

[kartstuffer]

In Ireland the DMCC run a 10.5 blinky class and the intent is that if you run this class and win the championship you then move to modified.
We probably have a 50-50 split between mod and 10.5 clubman class but it is definately better than not having the 10.5 class.

[Chris Elworthy]

It seems like it's just the UK then. I just find that at nationals there isn't a huge amount to aim for other than securing a higher F grading as no matter how quick the majority of us on the day are were not gonna start mixing it with the established A Final superstars and we recognise this.

Some sort of clubmans championship for drivers who have competed in less than 3 years of nats for eg would be great for breeding new drivers in my opinion and would be great close racing imo.

I remember when rebuildable stock TC came to the UK people soon turned to it for the close, fun racing

[cjm_2008]

It seems like it's just the UK then. I just find that at nationals there isn't a huge amount to aim for other than securing a higher F grading as no matter how quick the majority of us on the day are were not gonna start mixing it with the established A Final superstars and we recognise this.



What's stopping you though?

In full size motorsport there is a cost ceiling, but I do feel that it's purely down to skill in RC racing. Practice your nuts off and who knows....

[cmgreen]

Personally I thinks its hard enough getting people racing as it is. If there were plenty of people racing - like the good old days of the radio race car series they had a stock and modified championship...

[Rick-J]

From my previous experience running 17.5 in touring cars it is not as beginner friendly as you may think. Yes it limits the speed but is no cheaper as the top drivers in that class are going for that extra percentage. Meaning to compete you need that new motor that is marginally faster or higher c batteries or a lighter car etc. Some people love this and see it as an extra challenge but personally I love the fact that buggy racing is uncomplicated just 2wd and 4wd. We all have access to the same electrics etc and you can choose what to install or buy. As long as its BRCA legal you dont have to worry. As an average club racer you can gain more than enough speed from relatively cheap electronics and batteries.

Saying that I would like to see 2wd split into rear motor and mid. Rear motor class would be so much fun. Thoughts?

[cutting42]

I am thankful there is only mod racing. Nothing to worry about, buy any of the main manufacturers cars, any electrics, any batteries and you too can win races! Start with a slower motor (10.5 for me and my son a few years back) and progress up the motors as you improve.

[claymoreman]

A spec OR a stock class could be run by clubs it would just mean clubs actually scrutineering cars to run this class. If then a stock class was run at club level then maybe it could be transformed into a national series. I dont agree with the fact that if you win the series you have to move up to a modified class.

a stock class could possibly bring more people into the sport

[knighthawk]

It would be great to see a spec class in Off Road.
The main problem with any motor class you have to follow the pack because if you don't, you just get left for dead on the straights !

[Chris Elworthy]

But don't people follow the pack anyway even in mod?

[knighthawk]

But don't people follow the pack anyway even in mod?

What I mean by this is, you could run a 10.5 to make your life easier in the infield of the track, but you just now people using a 5.5/6.5 will eat you down the straight, lol

[Al3xis007]

Spec classes were good, but that's before people started cheating.
I saw someone talking about 10.5 motors, Tom Cockerill ran a turbo'd and boosted 10.5 at stotfold and he was plenty fast enough, not that noticeably slower than a 7.5 with no timing

[Origineelreclamebord]

The current astroturf grips so much because tires hook into it and the rubber that may deposits in/on it - a material that doesn't allow that (as much) would fix the problem... At an indoor track here in the Netherlands they use porous plastic floor tiles for low-grip areas in the track, where funnily enough you get more traction as your tire wears down.

That, or change to a regulation tire that offers less bite and preferably even one that has long-lasting performance instead of a short spike in performance. If you can engineer tires to generate more grip, you can also reverse the process to reduce grip :)

[Steve.T]

I'd love to see a spec class and would support it but there's always some muppet who ruins it by cheating

[knighthawk]

I'd love to see a spec class and would support it but there's always some muppet who ruins it by cheating

Simple solution

" Life Time Ban "

[DCM]

Spec class=cost.... Simple fact....

You munch through motors and cells to be competitive and then, when you are winning you're a cheat cause your winning.

In America they have so many classes at big events, everyone's a winner but there tracks are mostly low drag, a 13.5 on grass well, they ain't much fun.

This comes from someone who seriously competed in stock buggies in the nineties.

[dodgydiy]

spec classes are always more expensive. to be competetive people buy varous different makes of motor and speed control to see which is faster, they buy more expensive batteries, they change tyres more frequently, basically anything that can give an advantage is done at whatever cost. in the 27 turn days people would buy boxes of motors to pick out the best, selling the remainder on to others, use at least two if not three motors per meeting, change tyres every race and severely abuse their batteries, making their lifespan very short. their cars were much faster than the average club racer and still legal.....

[claymoreman]

those that want to waste money on buying a box full of motors abuse there batteries to get the winning edge are the ones that it will cost the most the idea behind a specced class is to get people into the sport on a reasonable budget that gives close racing. If you feel the need to be one of those people who want to do the above then why dont you just run a mod class only. Specced classes need to be policed in some form or another or it is open to abuse. One way of policing it would be at registration of a specced class the cars are placed in secure area or a seal placed on the motor. If people wanting to run specced classes are not willing to police or scrutineer the class then it will always be on a road to fail as a class. If people have to/ or are willing to cheat to win a spec class it just proves they feel the sport doesnt need the future racers.

clubs need to start the ball rolling running specced classes for it to grow if no clubs are willing to start the ball rolling then its just another forum for peoples pov wasted

[danDanEFC]

We have ran a 10.5 blinky buggy class at Southport for 2 years, it has grown each year.

[mark christopher]

I race an indoor spec class on road, and it costs more, you have to keep on top of your motor and batteries.

I race off road and have had the same motor batteries and speedos for the last 3 hears, simply because I have more power than grip. The moment you have more grip than power is when things start getting pushed to the limit.

I would think the reason its not used is because no one has been the the agm with a good proposal or no one wanted it.

[Ritchie T]

Spec classes are crap. 17.5 buggy is big in America and you should see the cash they drop on a buggy making it lighter etc. Don't get me started on gt12 'cost effective racing', sure if you want to be mid pack :rolleyes:

Getting on the road to diluted classes is a horrible idea. If you've ever watched an event on liverc its a chore... expert buggy, intermediate buggy, sportsman buggy, open buggy :wtf: z zz zzz

[Rocking Donkey]

People who have been racing for a long time will remember many spec classes come and go... silver can, 27t, 13.5t etc. Usually when they start they are cheap and fun, then they get more serious and problems start.

I was never the best driver, and didn't have the deepest pockets. I got really frustrated by people who were worse than me beating me because they had better/more expensive equipment which gave them more power...and this is really the point.

For me, the cheapest and most inclusive form of racing is mod. I can always get a faster motor in mod, and know that the people who consistently finish above me do so because they are better drivers than me. I have no excuses, and no bitterness.

The downside is that the faster you are going, the bigger the event you have when it all does go wrong!

[iank55]

I keep reading 'cheaper' in posts... not it isn't or wouldn't be.

Modified 10th Off Road today is the fairest it has ever been. The reason for this, as Mark Christopher said, is that there is more power available than grip. This is the case even running cheap gear.

In my 4wd I use a £30 motor, £50 speedo and £25 lipo. This set provides me with as much (probably more tbh) power than I am able to handle. My car is as fast as the top guys and they beat me because they set up their cars better and drive better.

If it were a spec class, it would no longer be possible to retain the same level of competitiveness on the same budget. There would be an advantage in running the latest greatest electrics, because in a reduced power class the extra edge of the best gear is usable, even for those with more money than talent.

[claymoreman]

loving the people who posting saying I like the pure mod racing even though I get hammered cos I got a fast mod motor but I cant drive it because I cant set up my car. specced classses are expensive .

People make specced classes expensive for themselves
does the latest speedo, motor or batteries magically make everyone that magical driver who can all of a sudden do the best lap time after time???

[Jez]

spec/stock class doesn't have to be expensive to be competitive.at yorcc they run a 20 turn saturn sealed can 2wd class with a variety of chassis and electrics.the guy that won this seasons championship won using a bmax2 v1 and an mtronics speedo.most other cars in class cost more than that guys whole set up.same guy even ran a holiday buggy and qualified 4th in A final.car cost £78 again with mtronics speedo.you don't need the best to be the best.slow can be fast,just utilise your power in the correct way and drive within your cars' limits.

[Col]

www.yorcc.org.uk/about

540 Sealed Can Brushed (2wd) / 17.5T Brushless (2wd & 4wd). These classes are aimed at newer / younger drivers and those who want a slower and simpler racing pace (though the lap times after often close to some Modified racers). The 540 motors should be sealed can 20 turn brushed (eg HPI Saturns) in 2WD cars. 17.5 brushless motors must have speedos running in “Blinky” mode i.e. no timing advance or power boosts.

[jcb]

I quite liked racing my 2wd in a stock class back when we had 19turn brushed motors.

Seem to remember the racing being closer and in a mixed ability heat there was a reduced chance of lapping less experienced drivers as with a slower car they made less mistakes.

I'm not really sure if it was any difference price wise to racing mod, just that the money went on different things.


At Norfolk Buggy Club we don't cater for a stock class, only recommending that new drivers purchase a milder motor like a 10.5 or 13.5 until their ability improves. If numbers and interest was there it would be something that we'd consider, but at the present time everyone seems happy running to mod rules.

[Justingt5]

Interesting thread this - I have thought about this issue for a bit and come up with most of the pros and cons already listed, to be the honest only way around this issue I found was to utilise "RTR" cars for spec/RTR classes, that takes away a fair amount of the the issues people raise with motor and speedo combos.

Make it dead simple - STOCK RTR chassis/Motor/ESC/Shocks - Tyres/Servo/Battery/Radio all free to use what you want. Tyre wars will always exist and servo and radio can make a much bigger difference to your driving than motor and speedo in my opinion.

This would be a cheap way into racing, as there are a number of very very cheap buggies out there.

Sure people are going to say "but yeah each RTR has a different turn/kv motor". It would not take long before people tested them out and chose the fastest/best one then everyone would just follow suit so then you make the class specific for that car, then one heat for all the others. Over time Manufactures could always change the RTR motor to fit with what is popular.

Someone suggested and ECX TORMENT cup to run alongside the short course nationals and I thought that was a brilliant idea, the truck is cheap enough and capable enough to race at a novice level with, then if they get into it they can progress into the main 2/4wd SCT classes which are effectively MOD classes.:thumbsup:

[Rick-J]

Listen to this about stock vs Mod. Interesting points but he does go on a bit but worth a watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muGIoxPxCKw

[mrspeedy]

If anyone doesn't think a spec class works then go along to any GT12 meeting and see how close and fun the racing is !!!

[Chris Elworthy]

I'm glad this thread has created some good debate.

Good video Rick



Chris

[SlowOne]

Why create a class for everyone when you can just create a class for anyone?

If people think that (say) 10.5 blinky is a good way for new drivers to learn their craft and car set-up, then make it clear at your meeting that the highest placed 10.5 car will receive a prize of (say) a set of tyres and a big trophy.

Please note that in the US those Spec classes run mainly at Clubs. There are no Championships at stake for the Spec classes in the US.

Anyone can now enter that class and race it if they choose to, and anyone can win the prize. That will encourage people who simply want to run something lower-powered to do so. Since there is nothing riding on it in terms of a Championship, and since it is just there in amongst the Mod cars that do compete for a Championship, it will attract those who want to run it, and not people who want to win it at all costs.

It isn't the Spec classes that create cost, it is the fact that we are racing. We do almost anything we can to win in racing, it's just that with unlimited motor power that area is not an issue. Constant development, testing time and costs (recovered when you buy a kit!), new bits every week, new cars every year, new tyres every run, etc. are all part of racing. Spec classes may not seem to be cheap, but they are no more expensive than Mod classes overall.

What does reduce costs, a lot, is lower power. By offering a prize for the highest finisher using a lower-power motor you attract those who want to save money without bringing in those who want to win a set class. After a while it all settles down and drivers find themselves in the right heat for their talent due to their grading and points scored.

Don't create a class, create recognition for people who drive in the main field with a specific motor that is defined and listed in BRCA EB rules and can be checked at scrutineering.

[knighthawk]

Listen to this about stock vs Mod. Interesting points but he does go on a bit but worth a watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muGIoxPxCKw

Wow 70 amps
He'll that's mental, accident waiting to happen

[DCM]

Just to prove a point, as Mark, in my 2wd and 4wd buggy I have more power than I need, not running in blinky though although under certain conditions I have. In my 1s GT12 'spec' class, I tried running 'budget' 1S lipo and it was good for the first 2 mins but after that, where everyone else was running a better lipo, the voltage dropped off to much so, to keep up I had to invest.

Don't get me wrong, compared to the past, keeping up in spec is a lot cheaper than buying 12 packs of batteries for one full years competing and rebuilding/replacing stock motors regularly but, compared to running in the open class now, you still go through more motors and cells in a year than I have in 5 years of open class.

I do get the idea of using a budget motor that you can buy at a club for their champs, as to be fair you can easily cook the motor so you got to treat it right. As for new members we advise a 10.5 now as that can be run in blinky whilst they learn then the use of boost and turbo as they get to grips. I am just glad touring car died here as that wasn't cheap racing.

[Ritchie T]

Why create a class for everyone when you can just create a class for anyone?

If people think that (say) 10.5 blinky is a good way for new drivers to learn their craft and car set-up, then make it clear at your meeting that the highest placed 10.5 car will receive a prize of (say) a set of tyres and a big trophy.

Please note that in the US those Spec classes run mainly at Clubs. There are no Championships at stake for the Spec classes in the US.

Anyone can now enter that class and race it if they choose to, and anyone can win the prize. That will encourage people who simply want to run something lower-powered to do so. Since there is nothing riding on it in terms of a Championship, and since it is just there in amongst the Mod cars that do compete for a Championship, it will attract those who want to run it, and not people who want to win it at all costs.

It isn't the Spec classes that create cost, it is the fact that we are racing. We do almost anything we can to win in racing, it's just that with unlimited motor power that area is not an issue. Constant development, testing time and costs (recovered when you buy a kit!), new bits every week, new cars every year, new tyres every run, etc. are all part of racing. Spec classes may not seem to be cheap, but they are no more expensive than Mod classes overall.

What does reduce costs, a lot, is lower power. By offering a prize for the highest finisher using a lower-power motor you attract those who want to save money without bringing in those who want to win a set class. After a while it all settles down and drivers find themselves in the right heat for their talent due to their grading and points scored.

Don't create a class, create recognition for people who drive in the main field with a specific motor that is defined and listed in BRCA EB rules and can be checked at scrutineering.

:bored: Theres 17.5 club, regional & nationals in the US

[madmax]

chris

southport is running its spec class this weekend why not pop down and have a look

[Steve.T]

If there was a national spec class at regional and national level I would love to do it

[derek mc]

At southport we run a 10.5 class everyone who races it enjoys the close racing, at the moment we allow any 10.5 motor and generally find the speed quite close. getting the correct gearing for your motor is important and it does differ between different makes. Also along with the motor everyone has to use the same type of tyre, in our case schueey yellow blocks, the main idea is that both power and available grip are equal. Iis a fun class(but then they should all be) , oh and we also run modified races on the same day and usually find that the top stock runners can match the race times of the modifieds. (you do learn your lines better at a more sedate pace, deffo better for newer racers).

[johnboy]

York club run at club meetings 2 spec classes they do a 17.5t class mainly 4wd cars run in this and they also run a brushed 540 sealed can (hpi Saturn 20t) 2wd class. The sealed can class is really good for learning to drive. A lot of the York lads who are now very quick cut there teeth in this class as kids.


I wish we had more spec racing I for one would sell my mod motors and just race spec.

The yanks have the right idea 13.5 turn sportsman class and it's the biggest entry.


Southport club like the idea of your spec class and also a tyre run sounds good

[Si Coe]

Lots of clubs run spec classes with homegrown rules successfully, but thats not at all the same as doing it on a larger scale.
Club level spec classes exist just to save money and reduce speeds. Likewise whilst they may be popular they are always seen as a 'lower' class and strictly at the one club. Consequently there is little to no point spending big money to win. You could get a slight edge at York buying 50 Saturns, testing them all and only running the best ones, at Southport making sure you have the latest and best 10.5 and for both some super spec batteries would help but why bother? If you aren't interested in keeping it cheap you might as well race Mod.
However the moment it gets bigger than club level that all stops. Spending big money becomes worth it at larger meetings.

Spec classes only work when there is a commitment from all parties to keep it fair. As soon as people start looking for an edge its essentially failed. The bigger the meeting, the sooner that point is reached.

[fidspeed]

Spec classes only work when there is a commitment from all parties to keep it fair. As soon as people start looking for an edge its essentially failed. The bigger the meeting, the sooner that point is reached.[/QUOTE]

think Si's reply about nails this one

[fivepointnine]

I would like to see a 13.5 blinky buggy class for the novice drivers. Maybe do it if they hit X lap time, win x amount of races or run X amount of laps they are bumped up to regular 2wd...to keep the expert level drivers from clogging up a class that was made for novices. We had this problem back in the US. Full chassis/electronics sponsored drivers running 17.5 blinky buggy.

[Karting]

I'd run a spec class, I think, maybe

[racingdwarf]

To me this has the same answer as many other topics about RC classes, we simply don't have enough people racing RC in the uk, in most cases we see the same people trying to run more than one class and very shortly finding they have not the time or the funds to carry on, so concentrate on one class.Now if we start dividing the racers we have in the UK amongst many classes, we end up with loads of under supported classes :thumb down:. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of loads of choice But unlike the US we just don't have enough racers

[fivepointnine]

To me this has the same answer as many other topics about RC classes, we simply don't have enough people racing RC in the uk, in most cases we see the same people trying to run more than one class and very shortly finding they have not the time or the funds to carry on, so concentrate on one class.Now if we start dividing the racers we have in the UK amongst many classes, we end up with loads of under supported classes :thumb down:. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of loads of choice But unlike the US we just don't have enough racers

I don't know about that. I lived in the Seattle area, there is a HUGE RC scene there, but on our average club race we had about 40 or so racers...the same amount of racers we get at my local club here. Plus if there was a spec/blinky/novice style class it might draw new racers in since they don't automatically have to run with guys running 7.5's.

The 17.5 blinky class was by far and away a larger class, usually with about 3x the entries of the regular mod class. On a normal club night there would be 1 or 2 heats of mod and 4+ heats of 17.5 blinky.

On the downside cheating is rampant in those classes, the cost spirals out of control since to be competitive you need to be at 1499 grams since you have a lack of power, along with having sponsored racers racing a class who, in spirit, should be reserved for newer/slower racers.

[claymoreman]

the idea behind a spec class is to encourage people into the sport so they dont have to go and blow a ton of money to race. before anyone one starts on about it not being cheap it is if it is run as a spec class
experienced racers make it expensive no one else

[fivepointnine]

the idea behind a spec class is to encourage people into the sport so they dont have to go and blow a ton of money to race. before anyone one starts on about it not being cheap it is if it is run as a spec class
experienced racers make it expensive no one else

yeah I agree with you...should put out a set list of budget electronics to choose from and set a realistic minimum weight maybe?