SCT Future

[trevron73]

Sorry to be a doom sayer , but where do we stand ? SCT seems to be losing ground and a great class would be lost. i am a late comer to the class, and maybe i missed the peak , but i see a viable and fun class that is head and shoulders above buggys in the fact they are fun and handle like dogs .
In the US they thrive and i hope to race next year in Texas , but uk it is dwindling? How can we get bashers to race and keep the momentum ? We all probably own other classes should we bring the SCT to other races for a final blast at tea time ? i got into this for fun as teen , SCT looks to hold the spirit ? Your thoughts please to how we keep the dream alive ?

[Slider SCT]

Handle like dogs??? The modern 2wd's are all based on stretched and widened versions of the current w2wd buggies, the newer 4wd's are 1/8 e buggies tweaked to suit the class specs. Ok so maybe not as nimble as a buggy but hardly 'dog' like!
As for the future, try getting clubs to support the class........most won't but some great ones do but the trouble is there's no glamour over here like in the states

[jimmy noke]

I don't believe its loosening popularity dude people come and go that's the nature of the class..
We've always had a steady turnout of numbers, and I believe if anything things are looking promising.

[cutting42]

I think the problem, at least from what I have seen is you don't know what you want the racing to be like.

A lot has been said about the fun and relaxed racing. Well from the two races I have been at it has been nothing like that with more drama and infighting than I have ever seen at a buggy race from club all the way up to national.

I am not a buggy A finalist by any means except at club level but have raced at regional and National buggy races and know how to get round the track and avoid collisions on a race track. Except it would appear at an SCT race, in all the 6 finals I have been in every single one I have ended up last by the second corner due to take outs by a ridiculously bunched up grid and the bumper car nature of racing. I am sure it is me being cautious or something as I don't like hitting other cars/trucks but it is really getting me down. I enjoyed the qualifying and did around what I would expect to do but left both race events with a really negative feeling about the racing.

If you want competitive racing then folks need to treat it as such with refs not just for the A final and penalties for takeouts or at least a change of style.

I race SCT at a local track for fun with no prizes or championships and the way I feel currently I think that is where I will limit it to and leave the proper racing to buggies.

[Robbiejuk]

I enjoyed sunday. Made the A final with my ancient Ansmann C.O.R.E truck which is really showing it's age against the more modern Short course trucks. I thought it was a good turnout to.

The 2wd A finals were not too bad for me anyways. Bit of boring and bashing but I didn't receive any major takeouts personally. Our referee was the politest ref in the world to.

But I had a good day, playing with trucks surrounded by my mates having a good laugh. Now tempted to get myself a SC5M as they looked really good on sunday and do next years series!

[Justingt5]

The nationals are getting dirtier every race, and rivalries have formed, I had to take a step back and re evaluate why I was doing it as I had started to not enjoy it after Mendip. I was trying too hard for the win, as were others and it was taking the fun away.

At A1 I went with a different attitude to winning and was there for fun and enjoyed my racing again (after I fixed it several times) But when you do get blatantly hacked its fairly normal to want to give them a little smack back as a thank you.

I have said it before time and again, the rules for buggy racing just cannot be applied to short course, and why should they be, after all they are not buggies.

Why cant we sample different strategies at a practice meet to work out what can work with for the class. For example, rolling starts? Side by side starts. extra for finals over qualifying.

I have never liked the points for quali as personally im better at driving when we all go together, ya know like a RACE!

Its not a BRCA class and as such does not need to be ran to any hard set of rules so why not tweak them?

Its already open for bashers as there is no control tyre? All they need is a Transponder and enough batteries to get them through the day.

Maybe replace the vintage buggy class which had no entries with a different class? (examples, RTR -CUP any bone stock RTR trucks can enter - 3s Lipo class? 8th Buggy class? 10th buggy class? 8th superlight class?? RALLY CARS)

There are many many options available to make it more enjoyable.

[Dombrasky]

By calling it "National" means its a bit more serious than a club meeting... and maybe going from basher, to a so called National is part of the problem
why not (as sw region have done this year) run regional truck events on the 4wd sundays from the local clubs as a stepping stone to the nationals.., as above I think sct is a great class and is gaining popularity, and can be great fun to drive

[trevron73]

Good to see some positivity. Great comments about tweaking the rules and opening up to more racers/bashers . I like the rolling start idea like Nascar ha ha. Q times i think will always suit some drivers over others and as i have yet to compete in the current format have no comment . Looking forward to Iceman over winter and a winter shakedown. Roll on Next years nationals .

[spyro]

what Justin said! :thumbsup:

We are still a young and developing class both in the manufacturers development of the trucks and how race them.

Don't forget the especially with the 4wd trucks we are hustling basically 1/8th Rallycross buggies (in weight and size) around 1/10th scale high grip tracks. Again a modern 4wd truck is very different to one that is a couple of years old.

As race director on Sunday I spent a lot of time watching the racing very, very closely. And while there was a few instances of "red mist in short trousers" most of the incidents where caused by accidents collecting other drivers on the way past.

Closed wheel racing tends to lead drivers to take a few more risks than they would with a buggy, especially going for that gap that quite frankly isn't there!

BUT this thread shouldn't be allowed to turn into a thread about bad driving, rivalries and driving etiquette. There are all extremely important don't get me wrong but they exist in ALL classes of RC racing and full size motorsport.

We now need to adjust the rules/series/racing to accommodate the class to attract even more drivers and get the buggy drivers to take it as seriously as we do :lol:.

[Justingt5]

By calling it "National" means its a bit more serious than a club meeting... and maybe going from basher, to a so called National is part of the problem
why not (as sw region have done this year) run regional truck events on the 4wd sundays from the local clubs as a stepping stone to the nationals.., as above I think sct is a great class and is gaining popularity, and can be great fun to drive

The National title you are referring too as being more serious is obviously an inherited opinion from Buggy racing; which this is not as I mentioned. Its called the nationals because we race in different regions, there are some that take it very very seriously and most of the other not so. I was the former and since converted to the latter, much like a travelling club as opposed to a full blown BRCA "National" event?

After racing on Tuesday night at Silverstone properly with a 2wd buggy I can honestly say the standard of driving in A and B finals at truck nationals is better, I got smashed into way more than I ever have at any truck event. In trucks as was said, most incidents are caused by collecting other crashed cars which is inevitable when we are normally twice the size of the cars the tracks were intended for?

We need to work on changing the attitudes of the "sheeple" so that they understand Short Course for what it is and not see it as a "support class" or second rate to buggies.

Trucks are so different to buggies to the point where the similarities end with the fact they are both Radio Controlled vehicles. They way you drive them, the way you set them up are all different, so why shouldn't the events be ran to a different format to accommodate this?

[Legend Racer]

The nationals are getting dirtier every race,
I've found that the SC nationals are pretty dirty, someone bumps you and you try and keep calm and think it's just racing, but when you do it back they play hell. Maybe if I qualified higher it might be different :)

[spenner]

Over the years I have watched many a SC race, heat and on Sunday actually participated in one.
The driving standards are terrible, now in a class where people are new to the sport I can understand this, but even at the top of each class it was pretty poor.
The main problem is that people look at SC as rubbing is racing, this doesn't mean use people as your breaks, or to get around a corner.

The idea of having referee's is a good one and should be used to implement driving standards.
With regards to setting them up, they have four wheels and shocks... To say they are different to setup or drive is a load of tosh. Like every form of Motorsport you have to adapt. The body acts as a parachute so you don't jump as far, the cars have a high roll centre due to the wheels, weight is up high so you respect the corners more.
It's still driving an RC car....

The method you have has the basis to be a good series, install driver etiquette and you will have some close enjoyable racing for the future.

[Dombrasky]

not at all "an inherited opinion from buggy class" my point being once you run a national series by its nature it becomes more serious,Ive raced 12th,10th on and off-road and micro nationals and they are very serious about rules and driving standards

[Dave Dodd]

Maybe replace the vintage buggy class which had no entries with a different class? (examples, RTR -CUP any bone stock RTR trucks can enter - 3s Lipo class? 8th Buggy class? 10th buggy class? 8th superlight class?? RALLY CARS)

There are many many options available to make it more enjoyable.

I doubt we'd get the truck back in the mid east regionals, as they was already dwindling down in the previous year. Also they would have to follow brca electrics rules, that why vintage was low in attendance.
..............

Trucks do seem more fun and I'm tempted but would mean racing at a different club.

[Justingt5]

I doubt we'd get the truck back in the mid east regionals, as they was already dwindling down in the previous year. Also they would have to follow brca electrics rules, that why vintage was low in attendance.
..............

Trucks do seem more fun and I'm tempted but would mean racing at a different club.


My club are stopping trucks but I am not stopping the nationals as from now on its the only time I will get to use the kit Ive spent a fair few quid in acquiring.

Spenner, regarding the setup and driving I never meant quite as literally as you took it LOL. Your right though you do have to respect the corners more due to the high COG which is what makes it different as its this that I was eluding too.

Referees are great in theory but only if they actually do anything about the incidents on track, if nothing happens there's no point having them?

Most of the truck drivers are not buggy drivers (some are I know) but it does appear its those with experience in 2wd buggies that feel the standards are awful more so than the less experienced truck only drivers of which there are many. I agree the standards could be better but this will only come with enforcement of rules, penalties for hacking and experience of racing close up; one of the reasons I said about doing more races and less quali - this could help as everyone will get more time wheel to wheel which means you get to know who your racing (style wise). Also if the points in these races count towards round total then drivers would be more inclined to go easy. "IMO"

[cutting42]

The method you have has the basis to be a good series, install driver etiquette and you will have some close enjoyable racing for the future.

This is at the crux of it all, totally agree.

To be clear, I did not consider myself ever taken out vindictively unlike a couple of others that day. I was just a repeated victim of 10 high speed 4WD arriving at the same corner at the same time. We really need a bigger separation on the grid and as Spenner mentioned a generally greater awareness of other trucks around. A bit of side to side rubbing is fine as it does not take anyone out but barreling into someone as they brake in front of you is pretty rude and if it happens you should stop and wait for them to be marshaled. Treat others as you would be treated yourself. As was mentioned by Legend Racer (great name btw) the temptation is to do the same in revenge and possibly to someone else, that way lies a crash fest with no credibility as a national race series.

[Justingt5]

This is at the crux of it all, totally agree.

To be clear, I did not consider myself ever taken out vindictively unlike a couple of others that day. I was just a repeated victim of 10 high speed 4WD arriving at the same corner at the same time. We really need a bigger separation on the grid and as Spenner mentioned a generally greater awareness of other trucks around. A bit of side to side rubbing is fine as it does not take anyone out but barreling into someone as they brake in front of you is pretty rude and if it happens you should stop and wait for them to be marshaled. Treat others as you would be treated yourself. As was mentioned by Legend Racer (great name btw) the temptation is to do the same in revenge and possibly to someone else, that way lies a crash fest with no credibility as a national race series.

Agreed, your right about the credibility aspect, although I am not sure if the organisers intended it to have credibility as a "nationals" series, as it has always been billed as a fun series that just happens to be sort national geographically; maybe its this aspect which makes people fight harder than they would at club level and is leading to a lot more crashing action as a result.

I did the oOple invernational for the first time this year and it was awesome, as right from the word go it was all about the fun, this took the edge off and made it much much more "fun". Could we learn something from this perhaps. Is the series in its current form having a bit of an identity crisis?

[buggy#0]

I've never raced SC trucks myself, but I've always been interested in the class and I do enjoy watching full scale short course.

From just what I've seen, I don't think it's getting any weaker - rather the hype from the initial boom (when every manufacturer, RTR or race kits, stuck some bumpers on their stadium truck chassis and chucked one on sale) has tapered off slightly. Once a smaller manufacturer realises they aren't shifting a sufficient amount of units, of course they'll eventually discontinue the car. It's survival of the fittest, just like any category - the cars with the most R&D, factory support and manufacturer pedigree will be the ones that shift the most units. The grids might look less diverse, but it's not completely unexpected in my eyes.

Regarding driving standards, I've only seen it and never experienced it - but it's no different to how it is in real life. Deliberate take-outs are highly questionable, but normal short course racing does go beyond a bit of a rub here and there. That's not to say the scale variant should mimic reality all the time - if a vast majority of drivers make their voices heard, basic contact rules can be enforced at each club, or nationally.

[Darren Boyle]

To be fair the racing standards at this years events in general have been no worse than any other year I have seen them or raced in them, although when someone at the top of the tree deliberately hangs back for a whole lap to then wipe you out (twice) and has a race buddy also deliberately t-bone you while being lapped also AND then rams you off the track AFTER the race has finished, then that gets very questionable indeed, especially from a guy who "had" a lot of respect from the admiring racers who watch the A finals from the sidelines over the years, but, thankfully that is just one sorry individual and that does not tar everyone with the same reputation....

Some of the racing this season has been epic and as close as any class could ever ask for, yes a little rubbing here and there, but that is accepted in SC as part of the class.

I agree with the comments above that it is the "national" series, not because it is geographically spread but because it is the highest level of this type of racing in the UK, those looking for something less hardcore should look towards regional or club racing (if it exists in their area) or dare I say, bashing. If you are preparred to tour the country to race against the best the country can offer in that class, then like it or not you are racing in a series that has a certain degree of serious competition. If you can add fun into that mix too then you are on to a huge winner.

I have been taken out countless times this season myself, some on purpose, some by complete accident, some by friends or even team mates and others by total strangers, I have even caused a few myself no doubt too, but overall it has not taken away the enjoyment of the overall season (until they start to become more blatant and occurring almost every run - but one idiot cannot ruin a whole season). I do hope we have some dummies and a pram full of toys for the end of season raffle at Silverstone, they with go well with the other prizes......

[Legend Racer]

To be fair the racing standards at this years events in general have been no worse than any other year...

This is my first, and maybe my last year. I've only managed two events and to be honest my heart just isn't in it any more, due really to the driving standards. I've been racing on and off since late '89 and the standard of driving I have come across is among the worst in all those years that I've encountered. EVERY corner when some one is is coming up to you, they just can't wait, "sod using the electronic brake I'll use the truck in front, it's a lot easier" is their attitude. From what I've seen, the drivers these days have no patience at all and WILL NOT wait for you to move to one side and will move you them selves. Now I'm not a mardy driver by any means and I can take and give lot of rubbing and stuff but what I've come across this year is really beyond belief and goes far beyond rubbing.

[Darren Boyle]

This is my first, and maybe my last year. I've only managed two events and to be honest my heart just isn't in it any more, due really to the driving standards. I've been racing on and off since late '89 and the standard of driving I have come across is among the worst in all those years that I've encountered. EVERY corner when some one is is coming up to you, they just can't wait, "sod using the electronic brake I'll use the truck in front, it's a lot easier" is their attitude. From what I've seen, the drivers these days have no patience at all and WILL NOT wait for you to move to one side and will move you them selves. Now I'm not a mardy driver by any means and I can take and give lot of rubbing and stuff but what I've come across this year is really beyond belief and goes far beyond rubbing.
Dont get me wrong, there has been a fair bit of that in SC this year (third party brakes as I call it), but it has not been any worse than any other season really...

[Legend Racer]

So being taken out on around 50% of every corner taken is normal?

[buggy#0]

So being taken out on around 50% of every corner taken is normal?
I've never seen it that bad, even though I don't experience it first-hand. In real short course, a 50% contact rate through every corner sounds pretty normal!

If it really is that bad, how much of it is deliberate and how much of it can be attributed to generally clumsy driving?

[Legend Racer]

If it really is that bad, how much of it is deliberate and how much of it can be attributed to generally clumsy driving?

I'm sure it's just clumsy, but that clumsiness is down to them not waiting a second or two, so like I say it's down to impatience.

Don't get me wrong I expect contact, I expect it in the corner but not that bad that they shove you off the race track and tip you over several times a race

[Slider SCT]

Starting racing the sc nationals last year and only this year being my 4th year of racing I can understand your points Paul. Qualifying from the 'lower' heats can be hard work as the void of experience/ability/ etiquette compared to those in the higher seeded heats is massive BUT the series is promoted for all abilities so that's to be expected.
The same goes for the guys at the front of the A finals to those at the back, although generally cleaner the ability gap is quite large.
Personally I don't think the std of driving is any worse or better than any other class I race from 1/8 to micro, club or regional/national level. There's always going to be clean and dirty drivers it's just one of those things you just have to find out who they are

I don't think the sc nationals do particularly bad for numbers averaging between 40-60 trucks per meeting considering the travelling involved (im up to around 1400 miles so far this season!), it's an expensive hobby as a basher to start with then factor racing gear,travelling costs,spares,tyres etc etc and it puts it out of reach for some or the interest of others.

You'll never make sc as popular as buggies over here, for starters 1:1 sc is an American thing to start with, no manufacturers are sending their big name star drivers to race the nationals (thank God cause I'd never see another A final ! Lol) and promote the class so there's no glamour...........Enjoy it for what it is, a niche class and hope your local club keeps supporting it because if those clubs drop the class we're dead in the water with only the nats for a chance to race the trucks.

Steve

[Legend Racer]

I think what I can't get my head around is by how much things have changed since i used to do the truck nationals in the mid to late 90's (in the days when they were what we now call Stadium Trucks). They were fun meetings with drivers of all abilities BUT the general driving standard was a lot higher than nowadays...maybe it's just the modern brushless motors that are too quick for people now?

[Slider SCT]

The nationals are getting dirtier every race, and rivalries have formed, I had to take a step back and re evaluate why I was doing it as I had started to not enjoy it after Mendip. I was trying too hard for the win, as were others and it was taking the fun away.

At A1 I went with a different attitude to winning and was there for fun and enjoyed my racing again

Trouble is Justin, like myself you had a reasonably good 1st year, you invested a lot of £££ into new kit etc etc and you started the new season hoping to better last year's results and like myself,you have, however that hope/expectation puts a lot of self imposed pressure on your shoulders so the lows feel a lot lower even though you've done better on average.
I can't say I've enjoyed this year as much as last year but that's down to my own expectations and stupidity trying to run both classes..........something I won't be doing next year!

[buggy#0]

I think what I can't get my head around is by how much things have changed since i used to do the truck nationals in the mid to late 90's (in the days when they were what we now call Stadium Trucks). They were fun meetings with drivers of all abilities BUT the general driving standard was a lot higher than nowadays...maybe it's just the modern brushless motors that are too quick for people now?
I think it's because SC trucks encourage contact, whereas anything with open wheels obviously doesn't. It doesn't necessarily attract dirtier drivers, but some can take it too far and some can misjudge.

Contact is a difficult thing. The only way you can get clear-cut rules is by banning all contact... which isn't going to work out. Everyone will have a different view of what's deliberate and what's accidental, and a different view of the line between a simple rub and a something a lot more malicious. You can't police it perfectly. Someone will always either feel hard done by or will be appealing a penalty, but that's just something that's unavoidable in a racing environment. Even the most relaxed guys will get emotional if things don't go their way, especially if another driver helps them along a bit - but a bit of self-control can go a long way to minimise the occurrence of such incidents.

[Justingt5]

Trouble is Justin, like myself you had a reasonably good 1st year, you invested a lot of £££ into new kit etc etc and you started the new season hoping to better last year's results and like myself,you have, however that hope/expectation puts a lot of self imposed pressure on your shoulders so the lows feel a lot lower even though you've done better on average.
I can't say I've enjoyed this year as much as last year but that's down to my own expectations and stupidity trying to run both classes..........something I won't be doing next year!

Spot on Steve, that's why I had to change the approach, and some of the other comments here are really apt too. I agree with Darren too on his points, I don't think the organisers intended it to be a full on NATIONAL but it is what is and I suppose that's inevitable.

The comments about just holding fire are right on the money too, as I changed my attitude at A1 and I personally caused a LOT less incidents on track, to the point where I actually never once took out a car on the first lap, apart from when Lewis HACKED me clean off the track after he was pissed that I passed him before the first corner, so I did reciprocate on this occasion. But this all goes back to the comments about the hunger for the win, bringing too many red mist moments.

Some drivers are worse than others, I am no angel and have smashed a fair few off including the team boss (Darren at Boughton) It wasnt intentional, just differing lines and a gap that disappeared by the time I got to it (see the video here DLJh2AUt7vYhowever I have come a long way over the course of this year, in terms of wheel to wheel racing, and that only comes with practice.

I no longer have a local club that supports the class and due to the all the kit I now have its important to me that I still have a series to race in which is why I am so vocal about changing it up to suit the class better.:thumbsup:

[Justingt5]

Whilst looking around for some ideas on how other countries/rc racing format their racing I found this article on RC Car Action. Interesting to see its not a new thing for people to suggest some changes.

http://www.rccaraction.com/blog/2011/07/18/rc-racing-is-all-wrong/

Any thoughts chaps?

[Slider SCT]

Well I've read it twice now and apart from a fair chunk of him slagging off the format we use now there's about 10% of an idea and a huge cliffhanger.
How can you get from doing 5 or 2 rounds to being put in an appropriate final? Via you fastest time of the day?, single best qualifying position etc? There'd be a lot of relying on luck in such a setup.

Think about the present system you need to do well in only 50% of the qualifiers to be assigned your appropriate final, something both you and I should be grateful for after A1a!. If it was 75% you'd have dropped down to at least the B and so would I with the 2wd

Say it was based on your best heat, you may do 4 q runs and get beaten by someone who does 1 q run, would you feel aggrieved?, I think so.

Now to the finals,you get a result based on your best 2 out of 3, so that allows you at least one bad run........you may break the car,get punted off etc etc.

Now take for instance the micro nationals, only the guys in the A get 3 legs best 2 to count,the mere mortals get one final.......anything goes tits it's game over

1/8 scale club racing.....3-4 q rounds and 1 x 18-25 min final, same as above anything goes tuts.......game over

There's a lot to be said for the present format mate!

[Legend Racer]

I can see his point, we race anyway in the heats, we don't really qualify so why not just have six races and not bother with finals.

The only down side I see is that you could be in a heat with worst drivers that could really compromise your day, unless a new heat list was printed at the end of each round, so by the end of the day the best drivers should be all racing together.
Maybe be put into heats in championship positions for the first round? Newcomers in order they booked in?
Don't give points per race but actual finishing positions overall, so you don't get points in your race but in 2wd or 4wd etc based on the final end of round listing.

It's all a lot of ,messing around for race control though printing a new heat list each round.

[Slider SCT]

I can see his point, we race anyway in the heats, we don't really qualify so why not just have six races and not bother with finals.

The only down side I see is that you could be in a heat with worst drivers that could really compromise your day, unless a new heat list was printed at the end of each round, so by the end of the day the best drivers should be all racing together.
Maybe be put into heats in championship positions for the first round? Newcomers in order they booked in?
Don't give points per race but actual finishing positions overall, so you don't get points in your race but in 2wd or 4wd etc based on the final end of round listing.

It's all a lot of ,messing around for race control though printing a new heat list each round.

I agree, qualifying is racing.......ever had someone let you through because your the quicker truck........I very much doubt it, more like they'll try to block you and any pass even though you may be ahead by several seconds according to the clock. Half the time lapees make it hard enough to pass,this isn't just the sc nats it's from the ground up where discipline isn't enforced!.

So we dip qually and race, then heats are rearranged on your previous performance, how do you propose a driver climbs the ladder to get in the higher heats? , how do you account for breakage/ malfunctions/ being nerfed off the track?. You can't have a 'best of' in a knockout style pyramid, the only people that's likely to benefit are the top few drivers, although they won't really benefit as they'll still end up heading the field.

I must admit the idea of having a larger spaced grid is a good idea and would reduce the first corner melee, on the other hand a rolling start would be unpoliceable, it's hard enough for a ref to police a standing start never mind 10 moving cars.

I believe the present format gives everyone as good a chance to do as well as they possibly can, but, as has been mentioned previously do you want an easy going rule set or a strict, no contact format...........remember it works both ways

[Legend Racer]

So we dip qually and race, then heats are rearranged on your previous performance, how do you propose a driver climbs the ladder to get in the higher heats? , how do you account for breakage/ malfunctions/ being nerfed off the track?. You can't have a 'best of' in a knockout style pyramid, the only people that's likely to benefit are the top few drivers, although they won't really benefit as they'll still end up heading the field.


Climbing the "ladder" is easy, if you finish in top 10 in race 1, as all the top 10 are together you should be in with the better drivers after one race, unless you breakdown or get broke by someone else in which case you try again in race two, now worse that it already is where you can be stuck in a heat of drivers not of your ability and you're stuck there for 1/2 the day

[Slider SCT]

So say for instance your in the top heat and you have an issue on lap 1 and that knocks you to last place overall where do you start in the next round?, would finishing 1st in heat 4 put you in 10th in heat 3 for example?

Take for example Justin's and my weekend at A1 we both had 2 last places overall due to breakages. I'm not sure on Justin's exact placings but the 2 remaining successfully runs put him into the A and the same for me with a 3rd and 4th overall.

I've done the qualifying from the lower heats last year and most of time it was from the back of those heats, if your the better driver it's down to you to get to the front of that heat so you start 1st next time and get clear track to exploit and you get 4 chances to do it and only requires a 50% success rate

[Legend Racer]

So say for instance your in the top heat and you have an issue on lap 1 and that knocks you to last place overall where do you start in the next round?, would finishing 1st in heat 4 put you in 10th in heat 3 for example?

It would all depend where you finish overall!
Look at it like this, a round of 2wd would be like one race, you couldn't however have 40 trucks on the track at the same time for obvious reasons, so it would be all based on where you finish overall, which would be based on how quick you went around. You may be in heat 2 but have the second quickest time, that would but you second on the grid in the top heat the following round.

Take for example Justin's and my weekend at A1 we both had 2 last places overall due to breakages. I'm not sure on Justin's exact placings but the 2 remaining successfully runs put him into the A and the same for me with a 3rd and 4th overall.

You're looking at it from a finals point of view, in this way we wouldn't have finals, just 6 or 7 races all getting their own points.

It's like having 6 championship rounds at each venue, each race is individual to the championship and doesn't effect the next race as such.
This also means that if you're at a venue with more than one track or layout you could change that during the day too as it's a different championship round.
It also means if you have to leave early, maybe due to work, family commitments or breakages, you can still get some rounds in that count rather than it not even be worth the trip (obviously if you break you've already made the trip)

I've done the qualifying from the lower heats last year and most of time it was from the back of those heats, if your the better driver it's down to you to get to the front of that heat so you start 1st next time and get clear track to exploit and you get 4 chances to do it and only requires a 50% success rate

If you finish last tough, maybe that's a championship round you would drop, we would all have those days.
But working up for your next round would be easier as like i say it's like one big race with 40 cars and you only have to get up to the top 10 to be in with the better drivers (I'm sure a proper 40 car race would be great fun if there was room on the tracks:) )
If you win a race with a time good enough for a top ten why should you have to race against lesser drivers next heat too?

[Team 36]

I'm planing to race sct national next season I been racing sct at club level we have 10 at most meeting our last meeting we couple more turn up so we had 2 heats off sct also there a few people talking about one for next season where they could get one as club point of view sct in taking off ! They also asking if anyone was saleing one I said to look on here or eBay

[Slider SCT]

It would all depend where you finish overall!
Look at it like this, a round of 2wd would be like one race, you couldn't however have 40 trucks on the track at the same time for obvious reasons, so it would be all based on where you finish overall, which would be based on how quick you went around. You may be in heat 2 but have the second quickest time, that would but you second on the grid in the top heat the following round

So basically what we have now but heat placement is swapped around?

[Slider SCT]

You're looking at it from a finals point of view, in this way we wouldn't have finals, just 6 or 7 races all getting their own points.


So how do you plan to score it ? Eg 40 trucks at least 40 points difference between 1st and last, one bit of bad luck and you could drop 40 points in the extreme, 2 bits of bad luck 80 points in the extreme.......... championship over in 10 minutes!

[Legend Racer]

So how do you plan to score it ? Eg 40 trucks at least 40 points difference between 1st and last, one bit of bad luck and you could drop 40 points in the extreme, 2 bits of bad luck 80 points in the extreme.......... championship over in 10 minutes!

Doesn't matter how it's scored, its the same for everyone, we all have races where we break down or finish last for whatever reason, we'll all lose those points here or there, but like there is now there would be dropped scores, this means you can just drop a couple of races in one day not a wholes meeting, which should keep the championship going longer

[Slider SCT]

So dropping the bad rounds out of a day..........still sounds like what we have now but with heat changes or am I still missing something? (in not that bright,it's easy done! ;-)

You originally made the point about poor driving standards, if you put points on every round, in my opinion you'll multiply that issue as a better finish carries more points therefore drivers will go for the best finish possible. The majority of finals at this level tend to have slower results due to the fighting for and defending of positions, your proposal basically measn 6-7 races of that type

I fail to see how this will improve and nullify your original problem with driving standards

[Legend Racer]

So dropping the bad rounds out of a day..........still sounds like what we have now but with heat changes or am I still missing something? (in not that bright,it's easy done! ;-)

There's the possibility of dropping the bad rounds, if you have worse rounds elsewhere then you don't drop any at all. You drop so many bad score in a year not necessarily in a day.
Now you have to drop some or is it one? each race day which means if your first three races are crap you still have some reason to be there with this sytem as you can still score some very good points, unlike now where you're stuck in a bad final getting poor points because two or three quali's didn't go well. If they were step-up finals then this wouldn't be as big an issue but they're not.

You originally made the point about poor driving standards, if you put points on every round, in my opinion you'll multiply that issue as a better finish carries more points therefore drivers will go for the best finish possible. The majority of finals at this level tend to have slower results due to the fighting for and defending of positions, your proposal basically measn 6-7 races of that type

Don't we all drive for the best finish anyway, even in the heats, we always want to beat the truck in front, even though you probably started 5 seconds later, the racing instinct still tells most of us to race and beat that other truck. I'm not saying we all do it but I bet the majority of us do, so if we're going to race in a heat then why not make it a race? There's generally been no worse driving in the finals than in the heats so there shouldn't be any less or any more contact.


I fail to see how this will improve and nullify your original problem with driving standards

Driving standards will not change but at least your day isn't ruined like it is now by getting T-boned in two heats

[Justingt5]

Ive been racking my brains about how we could change up the format, and to be fair I have gone around in circles, the format we use now is closest to that outlined by IFMAR I think from what I have researched. It is very very difficult to come up with something any better.

However after about 10 non starting ideas I think I may have come up with a decent half way house format that would not upset too many people and make for a more fun meeting.

FLAME THROWERS AT THE READY HERE GOES:


2 rounds of Staggered (current style) Quali - using the rocket round format so fastest time counts for rankings and this would sort the order for the next stage.
|
2 Rounds of PRE FINALS (still effectively qualifying) - Heads up racing against the clock. Starting together on the same clock in rows of 2 side by side, with double grid spot spacing. Scoring still done overall on time as it is now.
|
RESORT THE GRIDS FOR MAIN FINALS - Overall quali position made up from best result in each phase of quali - so best 1 from the staggered rounds and best 1 from the Heads up rounds.
|
3 Finals as they are now. 2 to count With added points for drivers finishing ahead of their Qual position (1pt per place)

|

2pts for the fastest lap of the day, however if the fastest lap is set by a driver who took max points for Qual and Finals then it goes to the next fastest lap.
|
Points for Finals would be 105pts for first to mitigate the risk of being beaten on points by someone who came 2nd but made up places to get there.
|
Possibility of adding a 1 round SuperFinal for the top 3 drivers from the top 3 heats for some extra points or some other incentive??

Points only for finals - No points for quali, THIS IS RACING NOT TIME ATTACK!!!!:thumbsup:

|
Im sure there are a few holes in this as there is with our current system, but this coupled with a proper enforceable penalty system I genuinely think it could help. Its still four rounds of quali and 3 finals as it is now, just made 2 of the quali rounds heads up style so everyone can get more experience of wheel to wheel racing, get to know the cars your up against. Which means by the time you get to the MAIN finals everyone will be that be less nervous and overall more comfortable in the group they are in thus "hopefully" leading to a bit more respect on the day.

A more readable version here: See Proposed Idea 2. (plus another Idea too) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iuGBjhn6obYB1TDf9aQ8Md8rQeGeCFrxDARaKRNziBk/edit?usp=sharing

[Legend Racer]

How easy is that for the guy on the computer, does the modern system allow for two different types of qualifying and sorting them into finals or would it all have to be done manually?

[Justingt5]

How easy is that for the guy on the computer, does the modern system allow for two different types of qualifying and sorting them into finals or would it all have to be done manually?

To be fair Ive no idea, they are both types of races that already exist as the Pre finals would be run in final format or heads up qualifying (start at the same time), then the times sorted for positions overall as opposed to finishing positions scoring points, the other 5rds are the same formats we run now. Its surely possible but how much work it would be I do not know.

[Justingt5]

I just downloaded a couple or trials for RC timing software, and as general rule it does look like all the options are there, it would appear its a case of creating a new event profile with all the relevant options for the format selected, then you add racers to the event as they would for any other.

So yes it looks possible with a little bit of setting up within the timing software.

[JohnM]

If you want it based around more racing, just use the Reedy system, everyone gets to race everyone at some point, bundle starts, 1 point for a race win, 2 for second etc, lowest points score is pole in the A, fastest time only used as a tie breaker.

It will take more time to set up, and is a pain if someone books in on the day, although you could always leave a space open in a heat to slot late entries in.

We used to do something like it at the Lawford Buggy Club as few years back, was always good fun.

[Slider SCT]

FLAME THROWERS AT THE READY HERE GOES:


2 rounds of Staggered (current style) Quali - using the rocket round format so fastest time counts for rankings and this would sort the order for the next stage.
|
2 Rounds of PRE FINALS (still effectively qualifying) - Heads up racing against the clock. Starting together on the same clock in rows of 2 side by side, with double grid spot spacing. Scoring still done overall on time as it is now.
|
RESORT THE GRIDS FOR MAIN FINALS - Overall quali position made up from best result in each phase of quali - so best 1 from the staggered rounds and best 1 from the Heads up rounds.
|
3 Finals as they are now. 2 to count With added points for drivers finishing ahead of their Qual position (1pt per place)

|

2pts for the fastest lap of the day, however if the fastest lap is set by a driver who took max points for Qual and Finals then it goes to the next fastest lap.
|
Points for Finals would be 105pts for first to mitigate the risk of being beaten on points by someone who came 2nd but made up places to get there.
|
Possibility of adding a 1 round SuperFinal for the top 3 drivers from the top 3 heats for some extra points or some other incentive??

Points only for finals - No points for quali, THIS IS RACING NOT TIME ATTACK!!!!:thumbsup:

|
Im sure there are a few holes in this as there is with our current system, but this coupled with a proper enforceable penalty system I genuinely think it could help. Its still four rounds of quali and 3 finals as it is now, just made 2 of the quali rounds heads up style so everyone can get more experience of wheel to wheel racing, get to know the cars your up against. Which means by the time you get to the MAIN finals everyone will be that be less nervous and overall more comfortable in the group they are in thus "hopefully" leading to a bit more respect on the day.


Ok flame thrower lit!!!
Say you break in the 1st of either segment of your qually system and can't get out for the second...............50% of your qually score is lost............see you in the z final!

Ever watched any 1:1 racing where a full on race decides your qualifying for the main event? , it's usually brings out the 'axe murderer' in certain drivers.............we all know a few that will drive through you rather than wait for a clean passing opportunity

Why give additional points for a 2nd fastest lap if the fastest lap is achieved by the final winning driver? No reward for consistency and skill, let's make no2 special??

Driver starts 10th finishes 1st 114 points , driver starts 1st finishes 2nd what's he get 99? Hmmmm:, sounds like a good excuse for sand bagging and more bumping and bashing as the sand baggers make their way through the field..........it will happen, I've seen it in bump up finals!

[Justingt5]

If you want it based around more racing, just use the Reedy system, everyone gets to race everyone at some point, bundle starts, 1 point for a race win, 2 for second etc, lowest points score is pole in the A, fastest time only used as a tie breaker.

It will take more time to set up, and is a pain if someone books in on the day, although you could always leave a space open in a heat to slot late entries in.

We used to do something like it at the Lawford Buggy Club as few years back, was always good fun.

Ive read about this format, I didnt go down this route as I know a lot of the guys like the amount of qualifying we currently have, also how do you seed the heats? Open practice sessions? Hot Lap qualifying?

[Justingt5]

Ok flame thrower lit!!!
Say you break in the 1st of either segment of your qually system and can't get out for the second...............50% of your qually score is lost............see you in the z final!

Ever watched any 1:1 racing where a full on race decides your qualifying for the main event? , it's usually brings out the 'axe murderer' in certain drivers.............we all know a few that will drive through you rather than wait for a clean passing opportunity

Why give additional points for a 2nd fastest lap if the fastest lap is achieved by the final winning driver? No reward for consistency and skill, let's make no2 special??

Driver starts 10th finishes 1st 114 points , driver starts 1st finishes 2nd what's he get 99? Hmmmm:, sounds like a good excuse for sand bagging and more bumping and bashing as the sand baggers make their way through the field..........it will happen, I've seen it in bump up finals!

This is why I put it out there, as I said im sure its full of holes, the fact is we spend too much time doing Time Attack and not a lot of racing, and thats the bit I wanted to change, with the format I suggested you still get 4rds of qualifying with 50% counting and it would be the same for all, but in that you get 2 more proper races as such?

To get 114pts you would need to go from the 10th to first in the A final, and when has that ever happened in the history of the UK SC nats LOL but I do get your point. You could always bump up and relegate the top and bottom 2 drivers from each final for the last final, that should ward off the sand baggers.

The fastest lap pts would be so that it would make the championship much tighter at the top as it would allow more chances for others to catch them up, no one likes a domination, its an incentive, but to that end, if you already have MAX points then 2 more will just make that person pretty well untouchable in the standings.

There will always be times when it doesnt go our way (look at A1) but thats racing. Proper prep and all that, no format can allow for this unless you do 7 rounds of Time Attached with only your BEST 1 to count?

[Legend Racer]

The biggest problem with how it is, is that qualifying is actually racing, like it or not that's how it always pans out for most of us, and I'm not sure there's any way of preventing that is there? I think having less trucks in the heats would help and spacing the stagger more so hopefully they're further apart, but having less in heats means less marshals and more time needed in the day.

[JohnM]

Ive read about this format, I didnt go down this route as I know a lot of the guys like the amount of qualifying we currently have, also how do you seed the heats? Open practice sessions? Hot Lap qualifying?

No seeding needed. As I said, everyone races against everyone at some point & the cream always rises to the top.

[Slider SCT]

The biggest problem with how it is, is that qualifying is actually racing, like it or not that's how it always pans out for most of us, and I'm not sure there's any way of preventing that is there? I think having less trucks in the heats would help and spacing the stagger more so hopefully they're further apart, but having less in heats means less marshals and more time needed in the day.

The only way to actually make qualifying as it should be is to make the racing zero contact and have several refs handing out proper penalties, one ref can't see everything or you make the marshalls themselves referees but that opens a can of worms as some pay no attention and use the time for a rest!.
Less trucks = less marshalls = longer to get marshalled so that's a no no.

Spacing the stagger,hmmm ok on large tracks, on short laps car 10 isn't far off being physically 'lapped' as soon as it starts. This happens a lot at my local club where laps are 11-15 seconds

[Slider SCT]

This is why I put it out there, as I said im sure its full of holes, the fact is we spend too much time doing Time Attack and not a lot of racing, and thats the bit I wanted to change, with the format I suggested you still get 4rds of qualifying with 50% counting and it would be the same for all, but in that you get 2 more proper races as such?

To get 114pts you would need to go from the 10th to first in the A final, and when has that ever happened in the history of the UK SC nats LOL but I do get your point. You could always bump up and relegate the top and bottom 2 drivers from each final for the last final, that should ward off the sand baggers.

The fastest lap pts would be so that it would make the championship much tighter at the top as it would allow more chances for others to catch them up, no one likes a domination, its an incentive, but to that end, if you already have MAX points then 2 more will just make that person pretty well untouchable in the standings.

There will always be times when it doesnt go our way (look at A1) but thats racing. Proper prep and all that, no format can allow for this unless you do 7 rounds of Time Attached with only your BEST 1 to count?

We actually do 5 or 6 mins or 1 rd more qualifying than finals not exactly a lot is it? and it's done more in favour
of the inconsistent or unlucky with only 2 rds counting.

I think you misunderstood my point,generally, no,the guy in 10th isn't going to come through to take the win BECAUSE at the moment the emphasis is on doing well in both qually and finals, chuck in a possible 9 point bonus and see if the system gets abused............ Of course it will

We used to have one guy when we raced nitro that used to sand bag blatantly, every meeting he'd bump up 2 or 3 finals (finals at 20 mins) why track time we'd be standing around for 1-2hrs as the finals progressed by the time we came to race he has a better knowledge of track conditions and can make adjustments between finals to suit, I think something similar would happen if you introduced bonus points per position gained.

Let's face it, at the uksn we get the day previous to practice something you rarely get at higher level buggy events, if we can't get our s&@t together with a days practice and get on the pace of the few regular top guys thats our problem not the systems. They turn up on the day do a few tweeks and are instantly topping the time sheets.........get used to it,it's like that in most forms of rc and motorsport. That's years of experience for you

[Justingt5]

Theres always going to be scope for those to abuse regardless of the system, I would just prefer to have more PROPER RACES in the day. Practice makes perfect, we know practicing the day before doesnt help at all for the finals when your up against 9 others as; most people will have spent the day before doing their own thing on not worrying about racing others. More RACING means more experience, which over time will improve everyones racing ability when it comes to wheel to wheel action.

Fundamentally I dont agree with points for qualifying, we come to RACE not to do time trials as I said before, if people want to do that we should drop the finals and HEADS UP grid starts and just do Time Attack 2 at a time 5 laps then the next lot. Racing is not all about being the fastest outright on the day, its about cirucumstance/luck/prep/skill all coming together at the same time; racing is about swapping positions and battling for position and having a blast at the same time.

I have had some epic battles on track this year and would love to have more of the same, yeah we get odd round where its our turn to be the target and get battered all over the shop, but this happens in every discipline not just trucks.

Simply put More Racing Action PLEASE.

PS im liking the sound of the Reedy race format more and more!!

[trevron73]

Hot laps qualifying could work , just like F1 have a 15 minute window where all in the allotted heat runners can go out after practice and get to smash out a lap in race conditions and fastest gets pole simple ?

[1rcdad]

so if we are to change things to get cleaner racing,we need to look at the tracks we race on,they are mainly designed for 1/10 scale buggys and not for 1/8 scale .The tracks tend to be one racing line so overtaking is always going to be difficult,hence most overtakes are done by shoving it up the inside,if people learned to actually concede the corner rather than trying to shut the door when you are already there the racing would be a lot cleaner.I have refereed many races and it is not easy when 2 trucks are fighting for the same piece of track,some times it is just a racing accident with no one to blame or both drivers.I would not like to start imposing penalties unless it was a blatant take out.

[Team 36]

My local club tried out 4 rounds off qualifying and 3 finals to count for every one everyone was happy with that or there is shootouts final where say top 15 at the the final's race go though run 3 final 1st final all start / 2nd final top 10 go though / 3rd final top 5 start find the over all winner

[Justingt5]

To be honest I don't it's necessarily the tracks, some are tight like mendip, but most are OK. it's more to do with the fact that as was said drivers simply won't concede corners?? I've had to on many occasions it's just how racing works. But most crashes I've had tend to be where I've had more speed into the corner and gone for a gap but then another driver sees it late shuts the door?

More racing and less qualifying is the long term answer, the more you race together the better the driving will get simple. Short term it may be a crash fest but it won't take long for people to get used to it.


I quite like the hitblaps idea but I'm sure most won't like it. Or will they??

[Legend Racer]

More racing and less qualifying is the long term answer,


Definitely need more racing and less qualifying, although to keep things as they are and do that would be OK, although I'm guessing this idea wouldn't be too popular either.
The same 3 qualifiers but at 3 minutes, less time for the quicker cars to come around and try and overtake should result in less crashes in qualifying.
Then 7 minute finals, I'd prefer 8 to be honest but I know a lot of guys run their motors too hot to last that long :woot:

[Justingt5]

When you look at my propposal, it solves the issue, I guess the extra points thing is a little controversial, but I do think it would mix things up a bit and make it more interesting; but the crux of the issue is too much time racing the clock and not enough time racing other trucks, its simply the wrong way around as it is.

[mrspeedy]

I'm not sure you're ever going to clean up SC racing. I've raced at club level since SC came out and at Nationals at Mendip for the last 2 years and this years was probably the roughest racing I've ever been involved in .. !!!

Still thought it was great though :lol:

As an alternative to what has been said before, how about go the opposite way and embrace a bit of the argy bargy that we all seem to enjoy and try the full sized RallycrossRX way of running a meeting.

I think the basics of it are, small heats, maybe 6 cars, all set off at the same time, and you get points for the place you finish. 4 heats racing against different drivers each time, points added up to give the final positions.

I'm sure theres some details I've left out but you get the general idea ... I reckon it would work great :)

[Justingt5]

I watched some of the TORC series on youtube from a few weeks back, and it would appear that our races are no more aggressive than the full scale racing these cars are based on and designed to replicate.:drool:

[Dazza916]

I am very new to the rc racing scene. I only get my first car, a buggy in June. And my tekno the begining of august. I'm still not 100% on all the rules and regs yet. Let alone the point system.
But I really enjoyed the only 2 rounds I did.
Its a great down to earth atmosphere . I will be attending some meets next year but not all. Which leads me to the points issue. And why people who attend all the meets loose out. Couldn't there be bonus points awared for each meet attended? 25 points given to every meet regardless of racing. So someone going to all 7 meets would gain an extra 75 points compared to someone who only went to 4?
I agreed with the AGM about 8 trucks on the grip, 10 just seemed too many. But I do like the 6 mins heats.

[Jedward]

Interesting read...so how did the 2016 series pan out; more or less racers, revised format, planned changes for 2017 based on what happened this year?

I like the idea of having a go but no clubs race SC in our area and I am mindfull of paying out for kit for a class that might be having a personality crisis.

[quincey]

Treat it like a national's for everyone...rules aint to strict,racing is as close as you can get,ive done 3 full seasons and it's good,you get to race at tracks you wouldn't normally run at...it's basically an extra class you can do along side buggies or 1/8..

[Mark A]

2017 season is fast approaching, we changed a couple of rules and the grid format from last year which worked very well, driving standards have improved but the odd one or 2 like to test the head ref. at the end of the day we want to race trucks, there will always be a bit of contact but deliberate take outs are not tolerated or cutting the course.

[Dave Dodd]

Hold on to your hats, I'm racing trucks too :thumbsup:
and will be entering some rounds of the national championship.

Fancied trying trucks for a while now and since it'll be a class at our new club, thought I'd best see what their like.
With a lot of help from the A1 truckers, Rob, Kev and Chris. :thumbsup:

[Robbiejuk]

Hold on to your hats, I'm racing trucks too :thumbsup:
and will be entering some rounds of the national championship.

Fancied trying trucks for a while now and since it'll be a class at our new club, thought I'd best see what their like.
With a lot of help from the A1 truckers, Rob, Kev and Chris. :thumbsup:

Time to take up chess... :lol:

I am looking forward to some truck action again this summer. Hoping there might be an SC6M on the horizon?

[Dave Dodd]

Time to take up chess... :lol:



:lol::lol::lol: