Vader says 'Yes' to LIPO

[vader]

LIPO's are the future.

So, why do so many say 'No'

Vader

[DCM]

Because there is such a randmomness on build quality, safety and useability of the cells. Until a construction rule in place, they can be as safe as NiMH or as dangerous as an old live WWII bomb.

[vader]

Surely companies such as Team Orion, FlightPower and now LRP have 'safety tested' their products before they sell them to Jo public?

Has anyone ever experienced any problems with any of the following products:-

1. FlightPower Trakpower 4900mAh
2. Team Orion Platinuim 4800mAh
3. Team Orion Carbon 3200mAh

I'm sure as with everything, if the batteries are correctly used there shouldn't be a problem. Same for Nitro fuel etc...

Vade

[DCM]

But the problem with LiPo is, that with every new generation of Sub-C cell, you could still get away with your last charger, with LiPo, MOST won't be able to, simple as, and to try to do is just a disaster.

Also, just do a search for LiPo on eBay, and the amount of uncased gel packs you can buy, this is where safety and construction regulations laid down by the governing bodies will need to come in play. As the current situation stands, if a club or championship series allows LiPo cells, you could easily turn up with a seriously sub standard cell.

Also, the cells are all rated at different discharge rates to. So until there is a specific construction regs, it is open to some serious H+S issue's. I can also see that the BRCA might recomend a charging pound, so if there was an issue, chances are, most are out of the way.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against them, and will make a fundamental change in the way we race elecrtic, but I don't think for the slightest, that companies will start to find ways of 'matching' cell performance.

[mark christopher]

they are not understaood

i have 4 trakpower, and loan em out at the sheffield biws, i run one pack myself, and have had no problem. i took a front corner completly off my xray while flat out on the straight, lipo was fine

chargers can be had for £30 ish

clubs are covered by the brca to use em (insurance)
the best way is to only allow packs in manufactures casing

some of us (trakpower drivers) were asked to abuse our lipos while testing

this ranged from charging at 10 amp (lipo only charger) and hard hits/jumps.
no problems at all

three main rules with lipo
only use lipo charger
dont discharge below 6 volt, some speedo's have this feature, device can be bought from novak/trakpower
let em cool if warm before charging

DCM i would hardly class nimh as safe! a young lady on rcracechat has poss lost one eye and had reduced vision in the other, from nimh exploding.
the current 4200 are poping like WWII bombs!

[bert digler]

they are not understaood

i have 4 trakpower, and loan em out at the sheffield biws, i run one pack myself, and have had no problem. i took a front corner completly off my xray while flat out on the straight, lipo was fine

chargers can be had for £30 ish

clubs are covered by the brca to use em (insurance)
the best way is to only allow packs in manufactures casing

some of us (trakpower drivers) were asked to abuse our lipos while testing

this ranged from charging at 10 amp (lipo only charger) and hard hits/jumps.
no problems at all

three main rules with lipo
only use lipo charger
dont discharge below 6 volt, some speedo's have this feature, device can be bought from novak/trakpower
let em cool if warm before charging

DCM i would hardly class nimh as safe! a young lady on rcracechat has poss lost one eye and had reduced vision in the other, from nimh exploding.
the current 4200 are poping like WWII bombs!

i heard it was a lipo at ameeting today please confirm this as you probably have the most valid argument for legalising lipos then also dont u think there is an econaomic factor in not making these things legal for use ie u dont need five packs of batteries to race just top up the lipo and mr modelshop if there are any left sells u these products

[mark christopher]

not sure i understand your post, but, no it was not a lipo, was defo nimh

you you only need one lipo pack for a day

you could say same about brushless, no com lathe, no springs, no brushes, no dynos, no coolers...............

http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27232

Luckily he was in a different room when there was a very loud bang. He went to have a look and found the pack split into many pieces and black dust everywhere. Some cells looked normal, some had puffed out and leaked goo, one (in the centre of the pic) has opened put with no sign of the contents, and one is MIA!
It smashed a battery box 30cm away, damaged a microwave on the other side of the room, 1 cell burnt through the floor, 1 positive button burnt through a cloth on the other side of the room, there are lots of mesh like bits stuck in the ceiling as seen in the 2nd pic, and black stuff everywhere.
They were charged as normal, 6amps 15mv for the pack, there were on from equalised for about 30 mins.
I have heard far to many things about exploding 42's :eek:
http://www.jamrowls.com/gallery2/d/1327-2/Cells.jpg
http://www.jamrowls.com/gallery2/d/1326-2/Cells1.jpg



http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showpost.php?p=246836&postcount=36

Thankyou Neil for those kind words mate i have asked my mom to do a statement for me and to post it on here so if any mistakes PLEASE DO NOT SHOUT AT MY MOM as she does not use pc;s;


this is savagemachine mom replied on behalf of her

thanks to all of you for your concern and nice words it is really appreciated i was released from gloucester hospital late tuesday evening and now back home my eyesight in the right eye is back to 90% unfortunally the sight in the left is none at all as the damage to the left eye is more than the right my face has few burns on it but will heal overtime i have to go back to gloucester hospital next tuesday so hopefully will have more informatoin then once again many thanks and hopefully will be back out on the track again

Savagemachine


I will keep you all updated on how my progress goes;

This is what can happen when leaning over a buggy when a hump pack explodes OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PaulRotheram]

omfg :(

[DCM]

I have heard many stories of this, and most often, the cell has already vented and people come and look or leave them on charge, and so often, people also leave batteries on charge and leave them completely unatended. Now, not trying to tar all with the same brush, but often, a lack of common sense and people curiosity cause the damage, when a shell should of been left well alone.

If these incidents continue to happen, then the same would have to happen with NiMH's. Saying that, in the 18 years of racing, I have not had one cell explode on me, had plenty vent, but then they have been disposed of.

Mark, regards BRCA and insurance, you couldn't be further from the truth. BRCA insurance only covers you from damage within the confines of the track, any incidents, outside of the courdoned area of the track is not covered, as hard as this is to accept, that is how it is.

[mark christopher]

I have heard many stories of this, and most often, the cell has already vented and people come and look or leave them on charge, and so often, people also leave batteries on charge and leave them completely unatended. Now, not trying to tar all with the same brush, but often, a lack of common sense and people curiosity cause the damage, when a shell should of been left well alone.

If these incidents continue to happen, then the same would have to happen with NiMH's. Saying that, in the 18 years of racing, I have not had one cell explode on me, had plenty vent, but then they have been disposed of.

Mark, regards BRCA and insurance, you couldn't be further from the truth. BRCA insurance only covers you from damage within the confines of the track, any incidents, outside of the courdoned area of the track is not covered, as hard as this is to accept, that is how it is.

odd as your not covered for marshalling either. and actually you have third party laibility up to £100000 in a car park, thats the cover i mean

read all thread, he tell you how it was charged

[DCM]

You are covered whilst marshalling, as that is in the confines of the race circuit, pit area, you are not. I don't think it is a 'Public Liability' policy, more specific to the track.

[super__dan]

I'm not against them as such, I do have a problem that they are 7.4V I believe, so it's just not comparrable to the class rules we run to.

[TRF_Tastic]

Looks like the same old thread repeated again.

This is my opinion, and as such I hope you will all respect my views.

Lipo is an illegal battery source for our cars, if we want to race competition, I agree with this as a policy, as there are too many different styles and models of battery out there at the moment. There are no definitive standards for the cells and as such there are far too many variations on a form, until this is resolved and we have a standard we should all stop medeling, this is a governing body issue, and the lead here should be taken at a world wide level with consultations to the different regional governing bodies.

I have seen at first hand both types of battery explode a Nimh at a track and a laptop battery at an airport and I can tell you that the more dangerous one was the laptop battery by far, both were tried and tested constructions, both failed so where do we go. We can only make things so safe, there will be a talented idiot out there who will cause an acident we cant stop him all we can do is try and make it as safe as possible, this is where regulatory standards will come in.

Mark in reply and by no means take this as a slight, I think that you will find that trakpower are neglegent in what they are asking you to do, what if you are injured whilst testing there cells? Are you insured or are you going to file a lawsuit against them? for loss of earnings injury etc etc... It is the companys responsibilty to test these things to ensure that they are safe, not you.

Lipo is not a crusade, it will happen, but only at the right pace, I for one will not support a change until there is proper regulatory standards in place for the cells as there are with sub C. At this point I will welcome change and look forward to the day when I dont have to spend out on new cells every 12 months.

[super__dan]

Looks like the same old thread repeated again.

This is my opinion, and as such I hope you will all respect my views.

Lipo is an illegal battery source for our cars, if we want to race competition, I agree with this as a policy, as there are too many different styles and models of battery out there at the moment. There are no definitive standards for the cells and as such there are far too many variations on a form, until this is resolved and we have a standard we should all stop medeling, this is a governing body issue, and the lead here should be taken at a world wide level with consultations to the different regional governing bodies.

I have seen at first hand both types of battery explode a Nimh at a track and a laptop battery at an airport and I can tell you that the more dangerous one was the laptop battery by far, both were tried and tested constructions, both failed so where do we go. We can only make things so safe, there will be a talented idiot out there who will cause an acident we cant stop him all we can do is try and make it as safe as possible, this is where regulatory standards will come in.

Mark in reply and by no means take this as a slight, I think that you will find that trakpower are neglegent in what they are asking you to do, what if you are injured whilst testing there cells? Are you insured or are you going to file a lawsuit against them? for loss of earnings injury etc etc... It is the companys responsibilty to test these things to ensure that they are safe, not you.

Lipo is not a crusade, it will happen, but only at the right pace, I for one will not support a change until there is proper regulatory standards in place for the cells as there are with sub C. At this point I will welcome change and look forward to the day when I dont have to spend out on new cells every 12 months.


What a great, well reasoned post!

[DCM]

Couldn't of said it better!!!

[jimmy]

LiPo will only happen if people want it - thats how it works, (medelling?). There were people MORE than happy to ban brushless would you beleive - the reasons they are now allowed most places is NOTHING to do with the brca, its because people wanted to run them and the BRCA listened and applied their sense. I agree there need to be rules, not to protect us from the GOOD, but to protect us from the BAD - but lets not tar all products with one brush.

[TRF_Tastic]

Jimmy I agree, however brushless is no where near the same potential danger zone that batteries lie in. But Brushless has only taken off as and when the systems became a more viable alternative to brushed. I still think that we are several evolutions away from what will be considered the norm by all and sundry.

As with anything there does seem to be people running around with what I can only describe as questionable motives, hence the medelling comment and these people pop up time and time again when this topic is raised.

I personaly dont think that Lipo is the future however Nimh isnt either, I think that there will be better alternative technologys that will serve our needs much better, I just dont know when and I dont know what.

"The ultimate miracle battery is nowhere in sight and the battery remains the 'weak link' for the foreseeable future. As long as the battery is based on an electro-chemical process, limitations of power density and short life expectancy must be taken into account. We must adapt to this constraint and design the equipment around it." Exert taken from "Batteries in a portable world" I think that this sums up this debate nicely.

[DCM]

Thats it, it is far easier and cheaper to buy bad LiPo (for racing) than it is to buy a good one for racing, hence the need for rules and regs, once thay are in, great. Also, until there has been enough of an overlap, built in voltage cut-outs, so stop people running them low.

[jimmy]

I thought you were talking about things from a racing, cost, fairness pov.. which is fair enough... Thats where the brushless / lipo comparison laid.

I think the safety argument is over blown personally. Everyone is entitled to their opinions - racing isn't an entirely "safe" thing, there are many ways to injure yourself, we do our best to avoid them and use caution and common sense.

I think most of us are alredy LiPo users, and regularly stick them next to our ears - so lets not be too hasty in condemning a technology. Bur regardless of what any of us think, things will move on, lipo will grow until the next big thing comes along - there is simply nothing anyone can do or say to stop that. The BRCA won't stop it, thats for sure.

[jimmy]

Thats it, it is far easier and cheaper to buy bad LiPo (for racing) than it is to buy a good one for racing, hence the need for rules and regs, once thay are in, great. Also, until there has been enough of an overlap, built in voltage cut-outs, so stop people running them low.


Totally agree with you DCM. Pepople need to use this technology for those improvements to come about. The BRCA won't make rules on something no one uses.

[vader]

So, after reading all the threads on this site and other sites, and reading the BRCA web site. I can draw some conclusions...


1. Many people and very happy about the level of performance of Trakpower LiPo batteries give.
2. These batteries are not going to be made legal for BRCA sanctioned events.
3. These batteries are used wide spread at club level, and at the BIWS at Don Valley Stadium
4. Common sense states that if you buy a cheap product from ebay then it’s build quality is not as good as a Trakpower/Orion battery. So don’t.
5. No one has ever experienced any problems with Trakpower batteries. There have been problems with LiPo batteries in Laptops & Helicopters but there is evidence that NiMh has issues too.
6. Obviously, you need to use a LiPo charger to charge these batteries. Don’t use a NiCad/NiMh only charger.
7. To be truly safe, allow the battery to cool to room temperature before charging it again. However, no problems have yet to be experienced.

From this list I would say that at club level Trakpower & Orion LiPo are just as safe as NiMh. By all means reply with evidence to contradict.

I look forward to reading Jimmy’s review of his Trakpower Lipo.

[mark christopher]

Thats it, it is far easier and cheaper to buy bad LiPo (for racing) than it is to buy a good one for racing, hence the need for rules and regs, once thay are in, great. Also, until there has been enough of an overlap, built in voltage cut-outs, so stop people running them low.
most up to date speedo's now have this feature, inc the new tekin, which advetizes the fact its lipo compatable!!

[mark christopher]

So, after reading all the threads on this site and other sites, and reading the BRCA web site. I can draw some conclusions...


1. Many people and very happy about the level of performance of Trakpower LiPo batteries give.
2. These batteries are not going to be made legal for BRCA sanctioned events.
3. These batteries are used wide spread at club level, and at the BIWS at Don Valley Stadium
4. Common sense states that if you buy a cheap product from ebay then it’s build quality is not as good as a Trakpower/Orion battery. So don’t.
5. No one has ever experienced any problems with Trakpower batteries. There have been problems with LiPo batteries in Laptops & Helicopters but there is evidence that NiMh has issues too.
6. Obviously, you need to use a LiPo charger to charge these batteries. Don’t use a NiCad/NiMh only charger.
7. To be truly safe, allow the battery to cool to room temperature before charging it again. However, no problems have yet to be experienced.

From this list I would say that at club level Trakpower & Orion LiPo are just as safe as NiMh. By all means reply with evidence to contradict.

I look forward to reading Jimmy’s review of his Trakpower Lipo.

agree with em all,
if jimmy pm's me or sees me at york regional ill lend him some new track power bits i have one just waiting on the other

[super__dan]

Vader,

In my opinion you should also conclude they are the 'wrong' voltage, so in certain classes that extra 0.2V will make a whole world of difference!

Dan

[vader]

at Club level Dan!!!????

[jimmy]

Are NiMh wrong voltage also though dan ? Certainly, I am sure your cells have more volts than mine.. Which already makes a massive difference, like you say, to controlled classes

I have no idea on this, but I do read various websites claiming their cells are 1.2v+ - meaning OVER 1.2v and by your own words, illegal. :eh?:



I can't go racing a 19turn touring car and be competitive with my old cells - but I can go and be competitive with one single lipo! :)

[mark christopher]

Are NiMh wrong voltage also though dan ? Certainly, I am sure your cells have more volts than mine.. Which already makes a massive difference, like you say, to controlled classes

I have no idea on this, but I do read various websites claiming their cells are 1.2v+ - meaning OVER 1.2v and by your own words, illegal. :eh?:



I can't go racing a 19turn touring car and be competitive with my old cells - but I can go and be competitive with one single lipo! :)
well said that man very true

[vader]

heh heh! my IB4200 worlds edition cells, say 1.2v on the heatshink, but are rated at over 1.3v each on the 'top trumps' stickers. Just don't tell anyone!!

[DCM]

Sub C cells, at a rest, will read 1.2v per cell, if charged normaly. Byt eh way we charge them, it increases the voltage threshold on charge, but that soon drops after charge. LiPo are rated at 7.4V nominal and generaly hold a higher average voltage over NiMH cells, they do give an advantage, as slim as it may be.

Jim, I can be competitive with 3700 cells in 19t, you just got to have the right motor, the voltage helps, but then you are fighting heat build up.

[vader]

oh! I give up......

[DCM]

you got to come to the conclusion, as it stands, Sub-C and LiPo are incompatible under the same race conditions, as one gives far greater bennefit over the other. It isn't like Modified and Brushless, where they are both as fast as each other, and both have drawbacks, but capable of running together, the battery situation isn't the same, no matter how hard you try to bash them into the same hole.

If the BRCA go LiPo, then I would like to see extended finals, to make use of the cell properly, not 5 mins.

I don't think, anybody on here is 'fundamentaly' against LiPo, but, are waiting for the BRCA to step up to the plate, work out a set of rules within the electric board, with the help of the manufacturers. Once that is done, people will buy them, as they can use them for racing other than club.

Like has been said though, there is such a great variation in cell types, current rating, build quality, etc, that this needs to be overcome before you can justifyable allow them legitimately to race in a BRCA sanctioned meeting, and those clubs allowing them on club meets, I do hope they are monitoring the situation, and ensure nobody ends up using Heli or Flight packs.

[jimmy]

tee hee, 'points out that DCM said there was a slim advantage - then said there was a "far greater advantage".

[DCM]

if you run to weight, there is a 'slim' advantage, if you don't run to weight, there is a 'far greater advantge', hope thats clear....

note to self - don't trust Jimmy snake in the grass :D:D

[vader]

Luke has just told me that It was an over charged LiPo he fired down the shaft which blew up my Deathstar!!!


This is Vader logging out forever.

Bye Bye

[bretts]

Vader had to go...

He was created as a Joke but he's had his time now.

I hope no-one is too upset..

[jimmy]

lol, nutter!

nowt wrong with a bit of debate though as long as its all reasonably sensible, which I think it was.
:eh?:

[DCM]

nah, not upset, I think there was some sensible comments and statements, even some from me.... :D:D

[TRF_Tastic]

Compared to some of the other threads that I have read on different forums this has been very tame. Well done all.

[super__dan]

Jim, I don't think the 0.0whatever difference between the top matched and normal matched cells makes as much difference as 0.2V. This was highlighted to me when at the first vintage meeting your car was leagues faster than any of ours.

Our cars looked like they were running sealed can stocks, yours could have passed for a mild modified (I know the weight will have made some difference here).

Our rules state the cells must be a nominal 7.2V (currently), lipo is 7.4V. The differences makes the two classes difficult to run together in any of the limited motor classes (stocks & 19t) in my opinion. I know nothing about the technology, is there no way they can be made to 7.2V nominal? You're right at club level this shouldn't make so much difference.

[DCM]

the way the cells is constructed, give it a 3.4V nominal voltage, so for us, you would have two pairs linked in series (to give 7.4V) and those two pairs hooked up in parallel to give you higher capacity. You cou devise a little circuit to cap the voltage, but it would have to have some beefy regulators, to cope with the power demand of an RC Car, especialy at full throttle from rest. People wouldn't use it if it then became a bottle neck for power.

[Chris Doughty]

3.7v per 'cell' for LiPo

LiPo also hold their voltage a lot better under med-high amp draw from what I hear

[mark christopher]

What clubs allow them?

[jimmy]

John ran mine at batley on sunday. It wouldn't be allowed for the supercup, but a club meeting is no problem.

[mark christopher]

do york allow em?

[jimmy]

I raced at york with it and so has Brett

[bretts]

As Jim has said, I used my Trakpower LiPo at York on Saturday night. I've also run it at Garforth the week before.

I got it for two reasons

1. They are already used by many drivers at Garforth, so I was jumping on the bandwaggon.

2. I can now run two cars at York on the same night, without having to buy loads of new cells. I ran LiPo in my B4 and my other cells in my ZX5. My two races were one after each other, so it was a manic night. But twice as much racing, Yippee.

[sefton]

I'm buying a pack soon to go with my brushless setup for no hassel turn up and drive club meets!

Craig.

[mark christopher]

As Jim has said, I used my Trakpower LiPo at York on Saturday night. I've also run it at Garforth the week before.

I got it for two reasons

1. They are already used by many drivers at Garforth, so I was jumping on the bandwaggon.

2. I can now run two cars at York on the same night, without having to buy loads of new cells. I ran LiPo in my B4 and my other cells in my ZX5. My two races were one after each other, so it was a manic night. But twice as much racing, Yippee.
do you run the mod class at york?

[bretts]

run a 540 motor!!, me? you must be mad :mad:

[xx4-nutter]

i tried the team orion one at york t`other week. very fast and pick up and loads lighter in the car. i saw rich lowe in the final last saturday in 2wd mod bliping wheelies down the straight..... pretty awsome lol.

rich what turn motor was you running ?

[mark christopher]

http://www.trakpower.com/

[super__dan]

John ran mine at batley on sunday. It wouldn't be allowed for the supercup, but a club meeting is no problem.

Actually Jimmy this is something we need to sort out. I specifically asked Steve at the start of the day and he said we were NOT allowing Li-po as Batley as Tom wanted to try Bretts and needed to find out.

I'll email him when I get a minute and we'll have to make a decision for the future.

I'm certain they won't be legal for the supercup though!

[super__dan]

Right, to quote Steve (Chairman);

'We are running to BRCA electric board rules

E.G no lipo

Stephen'

[jimmy]

At batley full stop ? even club meetings ? - supercup was never in question by me but I thought club meeting were a bit more relaxed.

In that case I need to find another club to race at :eh?:

[mark christopher]

At batley full stop ? even club meetings ? - supercup was never in question by me but I thought club meeting were a bit more relaxed.

In that case I need to find another club to race at :eh?:
how many are actually running to brca rules?
motors not on list
sintered in brushless
looks like ill be at york more than batley then for club meets

[jimmy]

Bury metro is another choice if the weather is good, they run pretty regularly and its always a good laugh. I ran the lipo there already in the X6

I need to race the Mamba Max in my review of that system also- so batley is out for me.

[super__dan]

Jim,

Whilst I might have on the face of it have appeared against Lipo, I'm not as such. I just have reservations!

What I think we need to do is next commitee/general meeting, talk about it and maybe even vote on it if that's appropriate.

Dan

[mark christopher]

ill be honnest here
BIWS allow then at shefield indoors in 19 turn and mod, out of 5 rounds so far only one lipo has won a class/round, and many are using them the performance gain track wise is miminal (as they run the min weight), the biggest benifit is for the user not having to charge/discharge/equalize etc, be sensible with them and fit and forget.
as i have said i have four packs and should i be at any club that wises to try/have them demo'd all your need is a speedo on corally's ill do the rest!
so if i come to batly ill lend em out to who ever and let you see for yorselfs what they are like.
how can a club decide without seeing them in action?

[andys]

Right, to quote Steve (Chairman);

'We are running to BRCA electric board rules

E.G no lipo

Stephen'

Dan, that's possibly the most crazy thing i've read in this interesting thread ! People who attend Batley CLUB meetings are there for a bit of fun, and anything that makes things easier is a big plus in my eyes. You seem to be hung up on the it's not fair cos it's higher voltage' thing, but please spare me. I'll tell you what's not fair, and that's turning up at a batley summer outdoor meeting to be racing against mainly sponsored / supported drivers that outclass you (or rather me :)) and out pace you in every respect, running lipo isn't going to make a bit of difference here and I bet I'd still get overtaken down the straight !

I like the idea of lipo as it seems like it could be a good way of leveling the playing field in terms of speed of our cars, I believe in brushless for the same reasons. When I get around to attending batley I hope to be running lipo and hope others will do the same. I have run one in my tourer and all I can say it's totally brilliant in every respect, one battery for a full meeting is brilliant and I resent the fact that I will need to shell out on a load of NIMH cells to run the regional offraods this summer, especially as they appear to be so fragile and possibly dangerous. I accidentally shorted my Trakpower lipo whilst it was fully charged, managed to loose the battery out of my tourer whilst racing (crazy tape stuff came away) and generally have given it a hard time, i.e charging it again directly after racing. It's performed faultlessly and hasn't so much as gotten warm !

Lipo is the future, more to the point it's here so lets use it ?

[jimmy]

Agree with you Andy, lot of sense there. For club meetings this is a massive leveler like you say, brushless and lipo - we can go far faster than we can handle now if we want. There is no constant outlay of big money and fancy charging techniques and brush profiling etc etc.. Turn up, and race.. Thats what club racing should be about, just having fun racing..
I wouldn't suggest using LiPo at larger BRCA events, not yet, for the reasons discussed, there aren't enough manufacturers or standards etc.

I was happy to use brushless at the F345 finals, I was the only one in the A final running a brushless and I was only there because of it - I could not of afforded the time (motor maintenance) or money (cells) to go quick enough to get into the A otherwise. Thumbs up to progress.

[Richard Lowe]

i tried the team orion one at york t`other week. very fast and pick up and loads lighter in the car. i saw rich lowe in the final last saturday in 2wd mod bliping wheelies down the straight..... pretty awsome lol.

rich what turn motor was you running ?

That was my 'slow' Checkpoint 11x2 with Brett's Lipo in it, I bet it could do backflips with the Lipo and my 9x2 in :wtf:
I tried to hold it on the back wheels all the way down the straight a couple of times but the lighter cells meant it was either on the wing or down lol :D

[super__dan]

Well you might well be interested to know I'm very much (on the face of it) being won over by this, and should there be a vote I think I'd vote to allow it (subject to BRCA insurance cover still being valid etc etc).

[jimmy]

You are welcome to borrow mine if you want a test dan

[super__dan]

Dan, that's possibly the most crazy thing i've read in this interesting thread ! People who attend Batley CLUB meetings are there for a bit of fun, and anything that makes things easier is a big plus in my eyes. You seem to be hung up on the it's not fair cos it's higher voltage' thing, but please spare me. I'll tell you what's not fair, and that's turning up at a batley summer outdoor meeting to be racing against mainly sponsored / supported drivers that outclass you (or rather me :)) and out pace you in every respect, running lipo isn't going to make a bit of difference here and I bet I'd still get overtaken down the straight !


Andy,

I think your statement there could be interpretted a couple of ways. If you're suggesting that there are loads of sponsored club drivers at Batley who have mega speed because of it I think you're mistaken.

E.g. Rich Lowe isn't sponsored for cells or motors, Tom ran customer stuff, I actually gave up my cells/motor deal last year as it was uncompetetive comparred to off the shelf stuff.

The common thing between the three of is is that we prepare and look after stuff really well to make the most of it, it's not special stuff. I actually currently have only 1 motor (off the shelf), and one spare arm of a different wind and have done since the Euros. This is because I'm hoping to go brushless in due time. However I will miss the fact though that through good motor maintenance etc I could draw an advantage but a completely fair one! That said, it is easily outweighed by the extra time I'll have at meetings to talk random shite with my mates!

[super__dan]

You are welcome to borrow mine if you want a test dan


Cheers Jim,

Might have to try your X6 too then if you've filed the chassis to fit it?

Back to my original point though, you've got to admit your 6 gear at the vintage meeting was miles faster than anyone elses ;)

Dan

[Medders]

What is this all about? You have batteries these days with capacities of 3700 and 4200+ and people still want more. Why most people even bother to pay for premium cells is beyond me. "Dumping" appears to be a thing of the past, and I think the attitide today towards cells is a legacy of the attitude that developed when cells meant the balance between speed and finishing the race was on a knife edge.

I would rather use (and marshall cars using) cells that were not liable to endanger my life. The sport needs rules and rules should be based on saftey and creating a standard that allows manufacturers to complete on a level playing field.

Unless you are competing at a national level time, effort and money is better spent on tyres, car set ups, and actually thinking about understanding how a car handles on any given track.

Having said all that, if Lipo is proven to be designed towards R/C racing and meets the same physical and safetly constraints imposed upon other cells then who has the right to say it is not allowed? If I can design a 540 sized nuclear powered rocket to the rear of my car then I will damn well use it - corners - who cares :D

[sefton]

Lets have a poll!

[andys]

Dan.

Points taken fella.
I do though think that for 'club' drivers like myself, anything that makes the hobby easier, fairer and ultimatley chaper is good news. For me a meeting isn't about who is the best mechanic, or motor tuner (and we all know some racers have dads / helpers who just do this and don't race). It's about who's best racing on the track, sure setup etc is very important, but having great cells / well maintained motors isn't always viable for everyone. I'm pretty sure that at a competitive meeting Dan your one of those people that re-brush and skim regularly, so are Tom / Rich etc. That costs a shed load ! I re-brush when the brushes are on their last legs and personally i'll be glad to see an end to this cary on, and i'll be glad to see an end to having to invest in 4/5 packs of decent cells just to be competitive. I think brushless & lipo will be a great way to level the power / performance gap between racers that we see regulaurly at club / regional meetings. I'm really confused as to why people aren't embracing this change and it seems to be the more 'serious' drivers that have reservations ?

[DCM]

your still going to have to have at least two packs of LiPo cells though, as they respond exactly like NiMH cells, the harder you charge them, the shorter a life span, and it is an exponential relatiohship in that too. Plus cells need to be cooled before recharging also.

[jimmy]

I guess we'll see how they last- thats part of using a new technology, you are discovering stuff. In my experience there is no heat on charge, discharge, charge again and again.. At least, I couldn't detect any.

I agree all the way with mr.shillito, its perfect for club racing and playing.

[bretts]

That was my 'slow' Checkpoint 11x2 with Brett's Lipo in it

here's something else to think about.... Richard lap times using LiPo were the same as using his 4300's !!!!

Richard and I 'swapped' cells for the 2WD mod A final. It was a last minute decision so Richard found I as did that the car wheelied alot. Through the night I had adjusted my slipper which calmed the car down again. I used Richard's 4300 which themselves were great.

The word I used to descibe using LiPo was the car felt more 'alive' than usual.

Anyway, for all those who were there. I'm sure the best part of the night was watching me fall over after standing on Richard's car!!!

Brett

[mark christopher]

your still going to have to have at least two packs of LiPo cells though, as they respond exactly like NiMH cells, the harder you charge them, the shorter a life span, and it is an exponential relatiohship in that too. Plus cells need to be cooled before recharging also.

nope not true

i have done the last biws with a 5.5 nosram and lipo, lipo charged straight after marshalling at 5 amps (not warm when they came off track) (manufacture say 2c is ok (which is ten amp)
if one pack £78 was to last 6 months (remeber there is no performance loss until they do not fade like nimh) the two times £78 is still cheaper that 5 packs at £40 which will have droped off after one year.

DCM have you tried /experienced lipo yet?

[DCM]

No, I have not tried them, only read technical specs off the web. If someone wants to send me a pack to try, free like, to change my mind....

[mark christopher]

what charger do you have? and is your speedo lipo programable for cut off?

[Adam Skelding]

Dan.

Points taken fella.
I do though think that for 'club' drivers like myself, anything that makes the hobby easier, fairer and ultimatley chaper is good news. For me a meeting isn't about who is the best mechanic, or motor tuner (and we all know some racers have dads / helpers who just do this and don't race). It's about who's best racing on the track, sure setup etc is very important, but having great cells / well maintained motors isn't always viable for everyone. I'm pretty sure that at a competitive meeting Dan your one of those people that re-brush and skim regularly, so are Tom / Rich etc. That costs a shed load ! I re-brush when the brushes are on their last legs and personally i'll be glad to see an end to this cary on, and i'll be glad to see an end to having to invest in 4/5 packs of decent cells just to be competitive. I think brushless & lipo will be a great way to level the power / performance gap between racers that we see regulaurly at club / regional meetings. I'm really confused as to why people aren't embracing this change and it seems to be the more 'serious' drivers that have reservations ?


Hmmm.
Only just started reading this topic. Thought I might pass on my thoughts..

Some stuff needs clarifying:
'Team' Motors
I think you'll be suprised to find that the motors that Mirage and I dare say CML and Helger send out to the 'team' drivers are actually straight off the shelf. They're in sealed boxes with no identifying marks to say team on them.

'Team' Cells
Similar thing here. They're advertised on the manufacturer's / distributors website with different performance for different budgets. From then on they are taken off the shelf in the warehouse and sent out to model shop/ customer/ 'team' driver. These all come from the same big box depeneding on the spec requested.

I've had the same nosram motors for the Last 2 years now. I've re-brushed each motor twice in that time using the P-Silver brushes. How's that for economy. Skimming usually every 3-4 runs...

If the brushes and comm are burning up much quicker your gearing really needs looking at.

Brushless.
I've only just started running brushless and have found it quite a seamless change from brushed.. Simple to use and set-up although in the XX4 the gearing is a bit of an issue as you have to use really small pinions...14/15..it's getting there.
For the beginner brushless will be amazing..and yes the performance 'advantage' will be 'minimised'. Admittedly, no more brushing & skimming.
Brushless has been a big and welcome step forward....I'm sure brushed motors will make a comeback with some new fangled "widgit".

Lipo.
It's not legal...so it shouldn't be run... on Insurance grounds.....simple. If your not aware a young lady from 1/8th was seriously injured before the Neo event charging a Lipo reciever pack...it blew up in her face....
I'm sure if this happened at a BRCA affliated club and the BRCA's insurance company decided that it was out of their hands...who would pay???? More importantly...should you risk someones health?????

Faster motors and cells I think will lead to a larger gap between racers, with those able to 'use' the extra power correctly coming to the fore..
Ok..the perceived physical performance gap maybe reduced but the actual gap will increase..

If people really believe that team drivers have that 'big' a gap in their stuff to off the shelf stuff.
Come ask me to swap cells or motors...

That's my honest opinion :)

[jimmy]

re: the LiPo adam, what are mirages sales figures on the orion LiPo? I know they are sponsoring a series (touring car) where LiPo is allowed.

Didn't mark post something about someone getting injured by a NiMh cell in the same way as this lady with the lipo receiver pack? The receiver packs can't be that much different to what we use in a mobile phone, but those aren't injuring people - so something obviously went wrong there.
I just think to say LiPo is unsafe and shouldn't be used, full stop - without even mentioning the serious dangers of existing battery technology, is really putting an unfair slant on things.

I don't have any desire to experience a LiPo blowing up, but equally have no desire to be near a nimh like the one below. Its terrible that someone was injured, but surely LiPo receiver packs are legal already ?

[/URL][URL="http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/durham110606/bigimages/durham04.jpg"]http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/durham110606/bigimages/durham04.jpg (http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/durham110606/bigimages/durham04.jpg)

[mark christopher]

Hmmm.
Only just started reading this topic. Thought I might pass on my thoughts..

Lipo.
It's not legal...so it shouldn't be run... on Insurance grounds.....simple. If your not aware a young lady from 1/8th was seriously injured before the Neo event charging a Lipo reciever pack...it blew up in her face....
I'm sure if this happened at a BRCA affliated club and the BRCA's insurance company decided that it was out of their hands...who would pay???? More importantly...should you risk someones health?????


That's my honest opinion :)

adam you are covered to use lipo inder general in the brca rules, been confirmed by the brca on racechat

if you are meaning Mandy the you need to correct your facts, that was a hump pack nimh and not a lipo pack. maybe nimh should be banned on those grounds?

http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showpost.php?p=250413&postcount=3

"Thankyou for your valid comments i cannot do anything at this moment in time until i know whether i gain some eyesight back after the freak accident on the 9th December when a hump pack blew through the radio box and then into my face whilst i was working on a rallyx.If and when my eyes or sight does recover and enables to me to race to a standard where i feel comfortable at again i will be out on the track.

Once again thankyou for the comments it is much appreciated

Savagemachine"



lipo is legal, no law bans it only certian sections, in fact the bikes do allow it. so they nmust be able to offer cover under the brca
the company you work for sponsors and promotes a lipo pack series!!!

[jimmy]

getting a bit heated in here :D play nice guys!

Thanks for clearing that up mark about the receiver pack, I should have read your post more carefully before - didn't realise that was the same incident.

[mark christopher]

jimmy im not 100% sure it is, but its the only reciever pack in a rally x car i have heard of, im noit getting heated, and adam knows me well enoughto know that.

[jimmy]

I just want to keep the love going in here :D

[DCM]

I could quote scary stories about both types of cells, but I dont think there is a point. The main reason for concern with LiPo is the overlap of non-lipo ready and Lipo enabled hardware, and it isn't so much the experienced racer, it is the basher and fun racer, we all know them don't we.

re: insurance, as I said before, if you check with the BRCA, the insurance olny covers accidents inside the track area, not anywhere else. If a cell has gone pop in someone's face, then, in the end, you have to take it up with the distributor/manufacturer, and then you got to prove that the item was faulty and that you were charging it in accordance with their guidelines.

The biggest issue with both types of cells, is basicaly you got concentrated chemical bombs, in such a small unit, they are storing vasts amount of energy, and all it takes is for one thing to go wrong, and bang.

There isn't a need for heated discussion on this, reasoned debate is far more constructive over this.

[mark christopher]

dcm how come the brca insurance offers up to a million third party insurance? so if i injured some one in tesco car park they could claim off me and im covered

[andys]

Hmmm.
Only just started reading this topic. Thought I might pass on my thoughts..
If people really believe that team drivers have that 'big' a gap in their stuff to off the shelf stuff.
Come ask me to swap cells or motors...

That's my honest opinion :)

Interesting stuff Adam. My point though is that if I attendeded the Nationals this year it would cost me a fortune. A large percentage of drivers would be supported in some manner, this is a significant financial benefit, I buy un-matched cells (the cheapest I can find) and I run the odd motor I get off e-bay ! Hardly top spec 'Team' kit. I, as many other simply can't afford to be right the pace, my driving isn't up to it I know, but it's crap to be simply out powered. Surely Lipo / Brushless will significantly change this and in the long run it will be significantly more affordable for all.

It's the Batley Super cup soon, and my main memory of last year (I think it was last year) was the 4wd battle between Chris Doughty & Steve Lawson, Chris was flying past Steve down the straight, such was his power advantage and Steve's car is no slouch ! I'd like to see the 'Gap' close it's there for all to see and I reckon standardising kit, i.e we all buy pretty much the same thing, i.e Lipo is the way to go.

[bretts]

For your info, I got a new charger with my LiPo.

one of these....
http://www.teamorion-avionics.com/avionics/images/Products/Battery_chargers/62200.jpg

and andys (as he has said in another post) got one of these...
http://www.ripmax.com/Product_Images/large/o/o-ip2850.jpg

both of them charge NiCad/NiMh/LiPo/Pb at 5 amps. But, it doesn't seem to matter what you charge them at the charger adjusts the amp's down to nowt by the end of the charge. I love my charger the screen lights up blue!!

andys's charger can be powered from the mains also, but mine is came with all the cables and is small and silent.

Brett

EDIT!! This is my 50th Post!!! Yey!!

[super__dan]

Andy, I think you might mean Ellis and he was there last year but Chris has never been to my knowledge. I would also like to point out last year I was in the mix and even leading at one point until I got gaffa tape stuck in my driveshaft and had to pull out :( This is the biggest point of the thread so far as far as I'm concerned! ;)

[bretts]

pesky gaffa tape!! it always spoils the fun!!

[mark christopher]

reason for that is that although you specify 5 amp a lipo charger will reach the pre programed voltage, then charge at a constant voltage and dropping the ampsFor your info, I got a new charger with my LiPo.

one of these....
http://www.teamorion-avionics.com/avionics/images/Products/Battery_chargers/62200.jpg

and andys (as he has said in another post) got one of these...
http://www.ripmax.com/Product_Images/large/o/o-ip2850.jpg

both of them charge NiCad/NiMh/LiPo/Pb at 5 amps. But, it doesn't seem to matter what you charge them at the charger adjusts the amp's down to nowt by the end of the charge. I love my charger the screen lights up blue!!

andys's charger can be powered from the mains also, but mine is came with all the cables and is small and silent.

Brett

EDIT!! This is my 50th Post!!! Yey!!

[andys]

Dan.

Your memory serves you well my son.
It was indeed Ellis. His car was so fast it was unbelievable. I reckon if you'd have being running Lipo's the power to weight ratio of your car would have being such that the Gaffa wouldn't have stuck, and you could have won :) Another great reason for Lipo's :)

[Adam Skelding]

Hi,
On the pack blowing up in someones face. Guess I'm going on second hand news here... I heard at the Neo race it was a LiPo pack..
Obviously it seems, not and I stand corrected... Apologies for misrepresentation.

We've all seen horror stories.

@Mark. Let me correct you here. I do not work for Mirage.... a common misconception....I work for HPI and Hot-Bodies.... and also of course Edit... there is a a big difference!!!!! I represent brands that Mirage import through various forms of racing but i no way do I work from them... HPI and Mirage are completely seperate entities.

I'm not getting heated, just pointing out a view...which I believe is the point of a forum.

I'm all for making the sport a cheaper place and I belive it's why Off-road is becoming more popular, there is less of a gap in off road than in any other class.

Go touring car racing.... you know need 5cells which because of the amp drain will kill the cells much quicker than 6 cells.

Buying cheap unmatched cells sometimes seems a cheap way of going racing, but for the extra outlay for some matched cells you would get much better value for money... My cells are over a year old know and have had some serious hammer. 32 meetings in all and they are still going strong...

Infact they are coming up for re-newal.... If you want to buy some decent cells that are better and cheaper than the unmatched ones....you know where to come...

:) :o :cool:

[mark christopher]

Adam find me at york, ill chat bout your cells

apologies for mirage/hpi i allways (wrongly) class them as the same