F1 appeal rules in Brawn's favour

[bodgit]

Motorsport's governing body, the FIA, has ruled the Brawn GP car, which has taken Briton Jenson Button to two wins this season, is legal. A panel heard eight hours of strongly worded evidence on Tuesday after complaints that Brawn, Toyota and Williams, use an illegal diffuser.
And the five International Court of Appeal judges said the designs "comply with the applicable regulations".
All three teams are free to race in the Chinese Grand Prix in Shanghai
full story on
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7996698.stm
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

that takes the wheels off ferrari,s season
http://ts1.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=564181336632&id=f95188071579a2285393213a66afd9bc

[mark christopher]

good news

[Lee]

Just been reading about this, excellent news.

I think its amazing that the FIA went against ferrari:thumbsup:

To be honest though, Brawn were confident of this result because they consulted the FIA during the design stages of the car and it was all approved. It was the wording of the other teams queries which led to different answers from the FIA:lol:

[Gonky]

From reading that report it sounds like it got a bit 'heated' in there as well... oh well, all good fun... on to the next race! :thumbsup:

[bodgit]

I hope Brawn paint their diffuser bright lime green:lol:

[swayze08]

yeh good on the fia and well done to brawn ,toyota and willams for developing a better car then rest its about time ferrari were playing catch up

[BagofSkill]

The thing that isn't being covered by mainstream media is the fact that the FIA told Renault at least, in 2007 and 2008 that they couldn't use the loophole. Renault has sent several questions to Charlie Whitting some worded, some including technical drawings about options to make a double deck diffuser and each time they were told 'No'.
Then he flipped and allowed it this year. The incriminating thing to me is that as the furore grew Charlie stopped talking to Renault about the matter- actually stopped answering emails and ignoored the team.

And the ruling was never in doubt by the way because once Max Moosley got up and told the papers in Melbourne it was ok, the die was set. And I know first hand the Melbourne stewards were instructed by the FIA to pass the diffuser cars. The appeal was a formality.

What bugs me is that the FIA set out to reduce downforce by 50% this year, and also make it easier to overtake by reducing turbulence. The cars with double deck diffusers currently have almost the same downforce as last year, and make juast as much turbulent air- thus making it hard to follow them. Well done FIA, soon, we'll undo all the good racing that's been seen on the slower 14 cars so far this year!

[swayze08]

so how long now before all the teams will be running them then . i hope brawn hold out as top dogs when ferrari put one on its nice to see jenson finaly get a good car and show what he can do

[Fabs]

Watch Renault's...

[swayze08]

no ofence to renult but would help if they had to drivers who can drive well but they only have alonso

[ryan_93]

no ofence to renult but would help if they had to drivers who can drive well but they only have alonso

LOL :thumbsup:

[Fabs]

You asked a question, and I replied...

[DaveG28]

The thing that isn't being covered by mainstream media is the fact that the FIA told Renault at least, in 2007 and 2008 that they couldn't use the loophole. Renault has sent several questions to Charlie Whitting some worded, some including technical drawings about options to make a double deck diffuser and each time they were told 'No'.
Then he flipped and allowed it this year. The incriminating thing to me is that as the furore grew Charlie stopped talking to Renault about the matter- actually stopped answering emails and ignoored the team.

And the ruling was never in doubt by the way because once Max Moosley got up and told the papers in Melbourne it was ok, the die was set. And I know first hand the Melbourne stewards were instructed by the FIA to pass the diffuser cars. The appeal was a formality.

What bugs me is that the FIA set out to reduce downforce by 50% this year, and also make it easier to overtake by reducing turbulence. The cars with double deck diffusers currently have almost the same downforce as last year, and make juast as much turbulent air- thus making it hard to follow them. Well done FIA, soon, we'll undo all the good racing that's been seen on the slower 14 cars so far this year!

Wasn't this a new rule for 2009? How were Renault questioning it 2 years ago?

Renault have been caught out in the rules before, for example having a crap engine last year because they thought no updates were allowed over the winter. In return they were then the only team allowed to update engines this winter!

[swayze08]

that is a good qustion cus the new rule was for 2009

[Fabs]

Rules are published years in advance, especially when they involve a total redesign of the cars like this year.

[stegger]

so how long now before all the teams will be running them then . i hope brawn hold out as top dogs when ferrari put one on its nice to see jenson finaly get a good car and show what he can do

It's not that easy due to designs of individual team chassis, ie engine and gearbox positions:p

[swayze08]

oh good then mybe jenson can bag up enought points to win before other teams catch up and i know this is off topic but do u think next years rule change of most wins will make f1 better or worse

[Fabs]

Wasn't this a new rule for 2009? How were Renault questioning it 2 years ago?

Renault have been caught out in the rules before, for example having a crap engine last year because they thought no updates were allowed over the winter. In return they were then the only team allowed to update engines this winter!

That is not technically true. They knew updates were allowed, but those were only to help teams improve on the reliability. Renault didn't have any issues on this side and so didn't need an update. The problem was, that "some" teams used the updates to gain power, and so renault (and Honda) who had an engine on par with everyone else at the time of the so called engine freeze, found themselves with underpowered units once those other teams finished updating their powerplant. This is why Renault and Honda were allowed to update their engines for this year.

[Lee]

Watch Renault's...

Agree with this, Renault have had one sat waiting to see what the outcome is, im sure it will be in use this weekend

[swayze08]

wow its like oople has spys in the f1 world how do u all have so mutch info on renult

[Lee]

renault would still be top if it wasn't for alonso leaving the other year, he alone cost them nearly a years development ;)

[stegger]

Patrick, it's renault not renult:p:p:p

[swayze08]

dammm my deslexic spelling lol it will curse me to the death ill just call them the french team as i can spell that

[DaveG28]

That is not technically true. They knew updates were allowed, but those were only to help teams improve on the reliability. Renault didn't have any issues on this side and so didn't need an update. The problem was, that "some" teams used the updates to gain power, and so renault (and Honda) who had an engine on par with everyone else at the time of the so called engine freeze, found themselves with underpowered units once those other teams finished updating their powerplant. This is why Renault and Honda were allowed to update their engines for this year.

Sorry Fabs, I agree with you on this, what I meant was most teams except them saw the loophole of "make it more reliable, and oops it happens to be faster too", whereas they missed it!

And actually yeah rules were published back in 2006, but there's a big difference between asking "Charlie, can we make our rear crash structure a diffuser", and "Charlie, optimizing the strength/packaging of our rear crash structure has led to a different shape, is this shape ok?".

I just have no sympathy with Renault on this stuff since spygate!

[bodgit]

The thing that isn't being covered by mainstream media is the fact that the FIA told Renault at least, in 2007 and 2008 that they couldn't use the loophole. Renault has sent several questions to Charlie Whitting some worded, some including technical drawings about options to make a double deck diffuser and each time they were told 'No'.
Then he flipped and allowed it this year. The incriminating thing to me is that as the furore grew Charlie stopped talking to Renault about the matter- actually stopped answering emails and ignoored the team.

And the ruling was never in doubt by the way because once Max Moosley got up and told the papers in Melbourne it was ok, the die was set. And I know first hand the Melbourne stewards were instructed by the FIA to pass the diffuser cars. The appeal was a formality.


Does this mean the stewards were misleading the world like Hamilton. Makes his hearing a mockery

[Fabs]

I know nothing me. I haven't seen the molds yesterday at all :p

[swayze08]

im starting to think fabs works for that french team what happend to patritism dont chear them boo them go button

[Lee]

Fabs isn't english, he is a european cocktail :thumbsup:

[Fabs]

I wish I was, but sadly not. I just happen to have had a tour yesterday.

And seen as I AM French despite whatever the burger van guy at the NEO said, then patriotism would say I should support Renault (and Ferrari as well and Bourdais / Toro Rosso too...)...

[qatmix]

Appar its the redbull and the Ferrari that have the chassis layouts that are not suited to the new diffuser type.

[Lee]

red bull are pretty quick anyway

[swayze08]

i know what u mean there fabs other wise i would have to follow lewis and maclrean but i dont and before it gets ugly no i dont have any probs with the french but the one queston u didnt anser is how the f**k do u know so mutch about ren oh the french team do they put it all on a website cus the bbc f1 site dosent have info like this i could use this info and make a killing at the bookies

[swayze08]

torro rosso have gone down hill now gear hard bergur has left do u think that is coinsidence lol

[Lee]

i could use this info and make a killing at the bookies

When you put your money on would you say "nobody puts renault in the corner"?? :lol:

[BagofSkill]

wow its like oople has spys in the f1 world how do u all have so mutch info on renult

Haha, there are definately at least one F1 insider contributing to this thread!

When you say Renault (and Honda missed the engine loophole- yes they did really. Sadly for them they were too honest for thier own good and when the FIA said 'give us your engine specs at the end of the Brazil race and they'll be frozen for 4 years unless there are reliability issues', Renault and Honda gave in their engines. Merceedes, Ferrari and BMW all took the latest, but so far unreliable developments, put them in the frozen engine handed that up and then spent 4 months and £££ to make them reliable again but keeping the extra power.

What it proves at the end of the day is that the FIA aren't serious about anything they say in the sport, cutting costs, freezing engines, slowing the cars or increasing overtaking.

And it suits the FIA that Brawn are fast because now they can say that 'look, we made it cheap and privateer teams are beating the big boys'. But no-one is aknowledging that the Brawn was designed by Honda with a massive budget, massive staff, two wind tunnels and a year to design the car. Brawn aren't a privateer. They had all the staff and budget of the full Honda Factory team until two weeks ago. Now the moneys gone and they've lost 275 staff, we can wait and see if/how long they get gobbled up by the people with resources. But they should have the first half of the championship sown up, that that is often enough to coast to the finish.

Th eother 7 teams will have to design and test new floors, new upper bodies (side pod/engine cover), exhausts pipes, ancillary bits and rear wings before they can hope to catch Brawn, and for some teams like Red Bull, they'll also need a different gearbox. £££££££££!!!

Renault will a have one set of the first generation bits this weekend for Fernando, maybe a second set for Nelson if they can finish them in time.
I think they're the first. The other teams are talking about R4 or R5 before they can have thier first generation double deck diffusers.

From what I've heard.........

[Fabs]

I don't think Toro Rosso have gone downhill, it's just that they've not had much running with the car and they can't use most of the data from red bull as they've got a totally different engine/gearbox. With a bit of time they'll get it running as quick as the red bull.

[swayze08]

there is a bookies bang across road want me to go find out the odds for alonso this week end or the bigger risk him winning the season

[DaveG28]

Don't make that bet too quick, remember it has been in Renault/Ferrari's interest to play up the speed difference of the diffuser change up to now, might not really be seconds a lap...

[swayze08]

true i made one as hope at the very start of season i put a £5 on s.vettal to win the the season as his odds were 500/1 well u never know

[Lee]

i think that £5 would have been better spent on a 4-4 draw in last nights game :lol:

[mark christopher]

oh good then mybe jenson can bag up enought points to win before other teams catch up and i know this is off topic but do u think next years rule change of most wins will make f1 better or worse
is it points or wins? all he needs is another 5 wins

[Fabs]

It's not playing up, look at the results, all the three diffuser teams are ahead of the competition, then you have red bull with a car that is very very different to the others.

[swayze08]

its not on wins this year mark they decided against it gonna wait till next year

[Lee]

Yeah if they were playing up they would at least try and get a few points on the board. Right now they are just gash

[emtee]

I hope Brawn 'n Button do the business... I've got 'em both in my Fantasy F1...

Count up those Fantasy F1 points and weep losers.... :thumbsup:

[BagofSkill]

Acurate analysis has a double deck diffuser worth about 0.5-0.6 seconds per lap on the Brawn (because of the way they scoop air in under the nose) and 0.4-0.5 for Williams and Toyota.

You might see brawn pull out a bit more of a gap now because they don't have to pretend the diffuser is only a small advantage. I can tell you now none of the Non-diffuser cars were sandbagging to try and make the Brawn look faster than it really is.

[telboy]

The thing that isn't being covered by mainstream media is the fact that the FIA told Renault at least, in 2007 and 2008 that they couldn't use the loophole. Renault has sent several questions to Charlie Whitting some worded, some including technical drawings about options to make a double deck diffuser and each time they were told 'No'.
Then he flipped and allowed it this year. The incriminating thing to me is that as the furore grew Charlie stopped talking to Renault about the matter- actually stopped answering emails and ignoored the team.

And the ruling was never in doubt by the way because once Max Moosley got up and told the papers in Melbourne it was ok, the die was set. And I know first hand the Melbourne stewards were instructed by the FIA to pass the diffuser cars. The appeal was a formality.

What bugs me is that the FIA set out to reduce downforce by 50% this year, and also make it easier to overtake by reducing turbulence. The cars with double deck diffusers currently have almost the same downforce as last year, and make juast as much turbulent air- thus making it hard to follow them. Well done FIA, soon, we'll undo all the good racing that's been seen on the slower 14 cars so far this year!


By the sounds of it the 'double deck' bit isn't on the diffuser itself, but on the 'deformable structure'. There is a 150mm section in the middle of the diffuser that protects the car etc. in the event of a rear impact. The diffuser aparently had to match a straight line across the top edge, but the dformable structure is classed as bodywork, and this is where some designers have found a 'grey area' and taken advantage of this by creating a double diffuser that exceeds the specified dimensions.
So, technically they are 'legal' because the diffuser section does actually conform to the reg's.
I don't see as its going to take anything away from the racing, how can it? If the other cars close the gap on Brawn then thats a good thing surely?:thumbsup:

[Northy]

I hope Brawn 'n Button do the business... I've got 'em both in my Fantasy F1...

Count up those Fantasy F1 points and weep losers.... :thumbsup:

Ha, I actually have some cold hard cash on JB and Brawn ;)

G

[telboy]

It's not playing up, look at the results, all the three diffuser teams are ahead of the competition, then you have red bull with a car that is very very different to the others.


But then, you look at Red Bull (soz Mr Cree) who were the main protestors and they are the only team that could keep up with the three mentioned teams at both GP's so far. So did it give them such a big advantage? Or do the others just have crap designs?
But when RB get their diffuser ready, watch out for them!

What will be funny though, is when the others get their diffusers sorted, they're no faster than before, and the Brawn is just a bloody good car!!:lol:

[Northy]

But then, you look at Red Bull (soz Mr Cree) who were the main protestors and they are the only team that could keep up with the three mentioned teams at both GP's so far. So did it give them such a big advantage? Or do the others just have crap designs?
But when RB get their diffuser ready, watch out for them!

What will be funny though, is when the others get their diffusers sorted, they're no faster than before, and the Brawn is just a bloody good car!!:lol:

I chatted with Mr. C about the Red Bull on Sunday night, but he might have been a bit too drunk to remember! :lol:

G

[telboy]

Did you take advantage of his drunkeness G and get load of confidential info out of him to sell to ferrari or something? :)

Its looking good in the wet conditions anyway!, they would have blown everyone away if the conditions had remained just 'wet' in malaysia.

[bodgit]

Am I right is saying the teams are on a limited budget this year. If so then I assume they have already spent a fortune getting their aerodynamics right to what they thought was legal already. How much is it going to cost to develope a new diffuser and aerodynamic bodywork to suit and will be over budget in which case they cant do it.

[Fabs]

But then, you look at Red Bull (soz Mr Cree) who were the main protestors and they are the only team that could keep up with the three mentioned teams at both GP's so far. So did it give them such a big advantage? Or do the others just have crap designs?
But when RB get their diffuser ready, watch out for them!

What will be funny though, is when the others get their diffusers sorted, they're no faster than before, and the Brawn is just a bloody good car!!:lol:

RB will have to redesign the whole rear end to adapt such a diffuser. What has made their car the best of the non diffuser cars is preventing them from having that diffuser on their car. Basically they'll need a new gearbox, suspension etc... a whole new rear end, instead of just aerodynamics appendices. So they have a choice of either carrying on developping this car as it is and not use the diffuser, or scrap their rear end, go back to a more conventional one and be at the same level as the other teams...

[Fabs]

Am I right is saying the teams are on a limited budget this year. If so then I assume they have already spent a fortune getting their aerodynamics right to what they thought was legal already. How much is it going to cost to develope a new diffuser and aerodynamic bodywork to suit and will be over budget in which case they cant do it.

There's no budget cap this year at all, but teams are trying to reduce their budget nonetheless.

Yes it is costly for the teams, for example yesterday there were some brand new just painted engine covers in the workshop, these will NEVER be used as they were for the old diffuser, which is just basically being scrapped. All in all, all the molds, parts and design time spent on the "old" parts has been a waste of time and money.

[DaveG28]

Acurate analysis has a double deck diffuser worth about 0.5-0.6 seconds per lap on the Brawn (because of the way they scoop air in under the nose) and 0.4-0.5 for Williams and Toyota.

You might see brawn pull out a bit more of a gap now because they don't have to pretend the diffuser is only a small advantage. I can tell you now none of the Non-diffuser cars were sandbagging to try and make the Brawn look faster than it really is.

Seems various people misunderstood my point somehow. Of course they're not sandbagging, but it has been in their interest to say "the diffuser is worth a second a lap so we're really the best legal car!" to both the FIA and their internal management, than to admit their car is crap regardless! That's how I meant by overplay it!

[Gonky]

yeah, no budget restrictions but i think teams are only allowed 8 days or so testing time on the track... doesn't stop the bigger teams throwing money at problems and having the simulators and wind tunnels on 24-7 though

[DaveG28]

But then, you look at Red Bull (soz Mr Cree) who were the main protestors and they are the only team that could keep up with the three mentioned teams at both GP's so far. So did it give them such a big advantage? Or do the others just have crap designs?
But when RB get their diffuser ready, watch out for them!

What will be funny though, is when the others get their diffusers sorted, they're no faster than before, and the Brawn is just a bloody good car!!:lol:

Exactly, this is what I meant by saying they've overplayed the difference!

[DaveG28]

There's no budget cap this year at all, but teams are trying to reduce their budget nonetheless.

Yes it is costly for the teams, for example yesterday there were some brand new just painted engine covers in the workshop, these will NEVER be used as they were for the old diffuser, which is just basically being scrapped. All in all, all the molds, parts and design time spent on the "old" parts has been a waste of time and money.

But the same would be true for brawn etc if the appeal had gone the other way?

[bodgit]

good point. Someone at ferrari must be getting their arse kicked for not seeing the loophole

[swayze08]

awww well u have to admit these 2 thing. 1, since ross brawn and jon todd have left ferrari have gone down hill and 2 its a bout time ferrari were chassing the rest of the field i personly think its quite funny

[R1 mini]

Lets not forget as Eddie Jordan said on the BBC, alot of credit should go to Honda and alot of the staff that were made redundant before Team Brawn emerged, as they did alot of the development with this car.

Credit where its due.

nice to see Farrari behind (or not see them LOL):blush:

[SlowOne]

Yes, Honda had 700 people to design and build their new car - so did Ferrari, McLaren, etc. What does that prove?

Brawn may have fewer people, but then again they don't need a test team (mostly banned during the season) and they don't need an engine integration team (no engine changes of note now allowed) and they don't need a wind tunnel team owrking on natty little bits to screw on the bodywork (not allowed). And, on top of that, they are working into a set of Rules designed to reduce costs.

Whatever the rights and wrongs, this situation has been happening on some level ever since Colin Chapman made the Ford/Cosworth DFV a stressed member of the chassis, and everyone else played catch-up until his untimely death because he was so good at reading the Rules and making things that met them - but better. There's nothing new under the sun... (except Jenson having a competitive car - go Button!! :thumbsup:)

[swayze08]

going completly of topic now i apoligize but i wanted to ask does anybody know if there are any plans to rescue wrc as i hear next season there will only be ford running seems a shame that the likes of mitsibishi and subaru pugoet and others are all prepeard to let the sport die after making thier money from it i bet collin mcrea and richard burns would be turning in thier graves rip boys agian sory for going off topic

[DaveG28]

going completly of topic now i apoligize but i wanted to ask does anybody know if there are any plans to rescue wrc as i hear next season there will only be ford running seems a shame that the likes of mitsibishi and subaru pugoet and others are all prepeard to let the sport die after making thier money from it i bet collin mcrea and richard burns would be turning in thier graves rip boys agian sory for going off topic

Unfortunately I'll think you'll find most of those manufacturers would take issue with you saying they made money from it, the reason its on its arse is because they didn't! Don't get me wrong, in the past its made a big difference to the image of a manufacturer such as Subaru, but I don't think they are making money now from it or have at any time recently! There's no point Peugeot and Citroen being against each other in it either as they sell the same cars!!

Unfortunately the new rules for next year aren't what Citroen/Scooby want either so they'll probably walk too!

[swayze08]

i understand were in a recation and times are hard for money just seems a waste to let wrc die

[DaveG28]

i understand were in a recation and times are hard for money just seems a waste to let wrc die

Your right, hopefully it can survive as a privateer class!?

[terry.sc]

Lets not forget as Eddie Jordan said on the BBC, alot of credit should go to Honda A lot of credit should go to Super Aguri. The double decker diffuser was something they came up with when developing the old Hondas. When they shut down their aerodynamicists moved to Honda to develop this years car, while another ex-Aguri aerodynamicist moved to Toyota.

alot of the staff that were made redundant before Team Brawn emergedBrawn making a lot of people redundant got a lot of publicity. Shame nothing has been said about all the redundancies from all the other teams now they don't need a test team, nor do they need 3 teams of modelmakers working shifts to build enough parts to keep the wind tunnels supplied 24 hours a day.

For all the repeated posturing from Renault about their diffuser design being illegal, how come they haven't shown anything to show what the FIA had rejected to prove they are right? :mad:


Part of me wanted the rules to be 'clarified' (you can't ban a part that's currently legal) just to see what explanation the others come up with when Jenson puts it on pole again in China.

[DaveG28]

A lot of credit should go to Super Aguri. The double decker diffuser was something they came up with when developing the old Hondas. When they shut down their aerodynamicists moved to Honda to develop this years car, while another ex-Aguri aerodynamicist moved to Toyota.

Brawn making a lot of people redundant got a lot of publicity. Shame nothing has been said about all the redundancies from all the other teams now they don't need a test team, nor do they need 3 teams of modelmakers working shifts to build enough parts to keep the wind tunnels supplied 24 hours a day.

For all the repeated posturing from Renault about their diffuser design being illegal, how come they haven't shown anything to show what the FIA had rejected to prove they are right? :mad:


Part of me wanted the rules to be 'clarified' (you can't ban a part that's currently legal) just to see what explanation the others come up with when Jenson puts it on pole again in China.

The redundancies are a huge shame, but its not the teams fault (any of them), not sugggesting your saying it is by the way, its a consequence of the new rules and "cost cutting" from the FIA

[swayze08]

ready cus here comes a bold statement but does the fia actuly have a clue its constanly changeing its mind and nine time out of ten it seems to go to the highest bider bye the way im not saying i could do better

[mole2k]

i understand were in a recation and times are hard for money just seems a waste to let wrc die

WRC is dying but the IRC looks like it's gonna step up to the mark and surpass it.

[DaveG28]

Looking at this mornings stories it looks like the Hamiltons are succeeding in kicking Ron Dennis out of his own team, the guy who paid for Hamilton to get to F1:thumbdown:

I really think Mclaren are going to have to bite the bullet and kick Hamilton out at some point, no way should a driver and his dad have this much influence!

[bodgit]

Looking at this mornings stories it looks like the Hamiltons are succeeding in kicking Ron Dennis out of his own team, the guy who paid for Hamilton to get to F1:thumbdown:

I really think Mclaren are going to have to bite the bullet and kick Hamilton out at some point, no way should a driver and his dad have this much influence!

I totally agree I have just read this too
The British newspapers are all reporting that Dennis will speak to the staff at McLaren headquarters in Woking today to inform them that his 40-year career in Formula One is over.

The decision is meant to be a pre-emptive strike that will not only lessen McLaren's punishment but also ensure that the team holds onto Lewis Hamilton, as his father/manage Anthony is still debating whether to move his son to another team.

The Daily Mail claims that 'his withdrawal will also meet with approval in the Hamilton household. Lewis's father and manager, Anthony, finds Dennis prickly and arrogant. They have not seen eye to eye for some time.

'It is understood that Hamilton Snr and Mosley have been in contact over the last few days, with both keen to see Dennis leave the sport. The Hamiltons have sided with Whitmarsh since the scandal broke prior to the Malaysian Grand Prix a fortnight ago.

'The fact that they have effectively won the battle means that Lewis is now unlikely to seek to leave.'.

Kick the hamiltons out we dont need prima donna,s If they cant kick him out put him as third driver till his dad gets his head from out of his arse. It always annoys me when I see him lording it in the pits. Health and safety should ban all but mechanical staff from the race pit area.
By the way did he get prosecuted for crashing a new porche into a playground a while back.
http://ts1.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=591472754988&id=176a2337bd3aa42db2c0e2774a80de53

[Lee]

Sounds like a wild excuse for a paedophile to me.

The playground incident, not ron dennis:woot:

[DaveG28]

I totally agree I have just read this too
The British newspapers are all reporting that Dennis will speak to the staff at McLaren headquarters in Woking today to inform them that his 40-year career in Formula One is over.

The decision is meant to be a pre-emptive strike that will not only lessen McLaren's punishment but also ensure that the team holds onto Lewis Hamilton, as his father/manage Anthony is still debating whether to move his son to another team.

The Daily Mail claims that 'his withdrawal will also meet with approval in the Hamilton household. Lewis's father and manager, Anthony, finds Dennis prickly and arrogant. They have not seen eye to eye for some time.

'It is understood that Hamilton Snr and Mosley have been in contact over the last few days, with both keen to see Dennis leave the sport. The Hamiltons have sided with Whitmarsh since the scandal broke prior to the Malaysian Grand Prix a fortnight ago.

'The fact that they have effectively won the battle means that Lewis is now unlikely to seek to leave.'.

Kick the hamiltons out we dont need prima donna,s If they cant kick him out put him as third driver till his dad gets his head from out of his arse. It always annoys me when I see him lording it in the pits. Health and safety should ban all but mechanical staff from the race pit area.
By the way did he get prosecuted for crashing a new porche into a playground a while back.
http://ts1.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=591472754988&id=176a2337bd3aa42db2c0e2774a80de53

What summed them up for me was Brazil last year, in the middle of the ecstacy of winning the championship, his dad cared more about him only speaking into the microphones of tv companies who always said what they wanted!! You could clearly hear him say in Lewis' ear "this one's ITV, they are ok to speak to" :thumbdown:

[Lee]

Dave i think that is only natural though, if i had been slagged off by spanish press all year i wouldn't want to speak to them when there was people there who had supported you all year.

I do agree though his dad is a tit, im surprised he hasn't run up on to the podium and snatched the trophy out of lewis' hands yet and shouted "ITS MINE ALL MINE" :lol:

[Gonky]

I thought Ron Dennis announced a while back that he would be steeping down from McLaren's F1 activities to concentrate on the road side of the McLaren and that Martin Whitmarsh would be taking over...

I certainly remember reading about it long before the F1 season got going...

[Lee]

I thought Ron Dennis announced a while back that he would be steeping down from McLaren's F1 activities to concentrate on the road side of the McLaren and that Martin Whitmarsh would be taking over...

I certainly remember reading about it long before the F1 season got going...

Very true, i wouldn't believe everything you hear/read in the press, they make stuff interesting to sell papers remember ;)

[Lee]

According to SSN Ron dennis has stepped down!!! :(

[Gonky]

I think the press are making this into a bigger story than it is!

Was always planned for him to step away from the F1 side of things...

[swayze08]

pitty realy i know hamilton has a get out cluas in his contract for slander against his name he shold leave instead of ron dennis in my opinion

[bodgit]

Its confirmed a while ago he has stood down


Ron Dennis has handed over complete control of McLaren Racing to team principal Martin Whitmarsh, ending his 43-year involvement in Formula 1. The 61-year-old stepped down as world champion Lewis Hamilton's team boss on 16 January, but stayed involved in F1.
Dennis will now concentrate solely on McLaren's new sports car project.
"I am the architect of this restructure of McLaren. I have no qualms about leaving Martin to look after all matters connected to F1," said Dennis.
"I feel enormously enthused about the prospects for both the McLaren Group and for McLaren Automotive."

Lewis sack your dad

[DaveG28]

Mclaren are creating a bad momentum here. Give Lewis an easy teammate. Sack the boss for Lewis (Well, mad max is all over this too!). All that will happen is the Hamiltons become more and more demanding, then leave anyway the first time Mclaren say no.

If this isn't his dads doing, I'd expect a press release anytime saying how great Ron is. If it is, expect them to issue a Gordon Brown style letter instead!

[Spoolio]

Aww, leave it out about Anthony Hamilton, if it wasn't for him being there (all the time!!!) websites like Sniffpetrol.com would have to go back to running their "Jenson & His Pikey Dad" gag that they were doing before Hamilton came on scene.

Has anybody wondered if Ron is playing a really really long game and using all this as a manufactured way of getting Martin Whitmarsh out of the team. His position is looking vulnerable pending McLaren being summoned to the FIA hearing on the 29th April.

I see McLaren did NOT appeal about the diffusers, are they keeping their head down or are they savvy enough to accept that they've simply been out-designed and need to catch up quick.

[bodgit]

The trouble is every other team will be watching want Ant does and should mcclaren depart with lewis i cant see the likes of ferrari taking any bullshit from his dad
SACK YOUR DAD

[telboy]

Can I ask?
What is everyones problem with Lewis's dad?
He's only Lewis's manager (in terms of the sport) so I can't see him having 1 ounce of authority in Mclaren when it comes to making decisions. Basically, Mclaren cocked up BIG TIME, and if it was my son that was in the firing line like Lewis was, then I too would be pretty p****d! wouldn't you?


Dennis has been saying from the beginning of last year that he was eventually going to step down. So I can't see it being through any dodgy reasons.

[Lee]

I agree tel, i don't have a problem with him as a person i just think its funny how he is always on camera :lol:

[DaveG28]

I can't believe how many people have fell for Lewis blaming Mclaren 100% on this!! It was him who cocked up as well as them!! How was he "misled" exactly?? He knew the truth, so the only misleading they could have done was to tell him he'd get away with it if he lied!!

With his dad, the proviso is how much you believe whats written, but a HELL of a lot has been written recently about how his dads obsessed with making him F1's Tiger Woods and how angry he is with mclaren for ruining his image. Well, duh, if he wants to be seen as honest, just maybe he should try being....honest???

Lol, anyway I've just been tuned away from supporting him for a while, since the whole "I'm leaving Britain to ecape these bothersome fans, but please all buy my book", and racing wise since he got away with somehow convincing so many people that he would have won Monaco given the chance (and completely ignoring that Alonso was NOT pushing himself as he knew the team orders!!).

Wow, bit of a rant:blush:

[DaveG28]

Oh, and Dennis had already stepped aside day to day but until now was staying as overall boss away from the track. He's now had to totally leave the F1 side.

[bodgit]

Renault & McLaren change diffuser
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8001001.stm



http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45671000/jpg/_45671216_diffuseralonso_i466.jpg
After a slow start, Renault will be looking to make up ground with a new diffuser


By Sarah Holt
BBC Sport in Shanghai
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

Renault and McLaren will run with updated diffusers at the Chinese Grand Prix, BBC Sport understands.
Now we will see how good Brawn really is

[bodgit]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45669000/jpg/_45669351_hamilton_dennis466getty.jpg (http://www.oople.com/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8001425.stm)
Hey sonny if your taking the piss out of my bald head again Im quitting
see how you get on without me

[telboy]

HOw can people moan about how much Lewis's dad is on tv?

I didn't hear anyone moaning that buttons dad was on tv all the time for the las two races....and come to think of it, when his career first started.

I can't believe how many people have fell for Lewis blaming Mclaren 100% on this!! It was him who cocked up as well as them!! How was he "misled" exactly?? He knew the truth, so the only misleading they could have done was to tell him he'd get away with it if he lied!!

Isn't that slightly contradictng? So basically he was mislead.
I can't remember him blaming mclaren 100%. He did actually say that he was wrong for lying. I'd say that's blaming himself some too.
Don't forget he's only in his 3rd season in F1, in his early 20's and drives for a team that he probably thought knew better, and so may have gone with their advice in this situation.

And as for his dad wanting Lewis to be the Tiger Woods of the F1 world...why not? would you not want the same for your son if he was in that position? I know I would! and if I'd helped him get there, then Id want to be there to witness it too!

[mark christopher]

HOw can people moan about how much Lewis's dad is on tv?

I didn't hear anyone moaning that buttons dad was on tv all the time for the las two races....and come to think of it, when his career first started.



Isn't that slightly contradictng? So basically he was mislead.
I can't remember him blaming mclaren 100%. He did actually say that he was wrong for lying. I'd say that's blaming himself some too.
Don't forget he's only in his 3rd season in F1, in his early 20's and drives for a team that he probably thought knew better, and so may have gone with their advice in this situation.

And as for his dad wanting Lewis to be the Tiger Woods of the F1 world...why not? would you not want the same for your son if he was in that position? I know I would! and if I'd helped him get there, then Id want to be there to witness it too!
even so tel, he knew he was cheating and some one else had had to take the fall for him and the team, he could have said "no lets be honnest"

[SlowOne]

Oh Mark, you are kidding, aren't you? You are telling me you have NEVER, EVER, said anything to a customer that might not have been totally right in order to ensure that you, your boss or your firm don't look like fools, or worse yet aren't seen to have done a perfect job? And, of course, you've NEVER, EVER, done that on the track to explain away some incident or other in an important race?

I know I have done both the above, with the advantage that my conversations weren't recorded, and my actions weren't on video. You can call it cheating if you like, but whatever you call it, it is a reaction that we have all either been tempted to put into practice, or have put into practice. Just because they are rich people doesn't make them any less human than we are.

They tried to get an advantage, they failed. S**t happens. It isn't cheating in my view - it's stupidity. There is a recording of your conversation and a video of the incident and you try to tell them something that didn't happen? Cheats? - idiots more like! :D

[DaveG28]

I'm sorry, can someone please explain to me exactly how Hamilton was misled??

Telboy, my point on the Tiger Woods thing is that if he wants to be seen as such a shining ambassador, then actually be one, don't just get angry with anyone who points out the bad behaviour and ruins the act!!

For what it's worth, my guess is they lied just to get the positions swapped to what they (with some justification I guess) felt was the right result. It spiralled out of control because wasn't Trulli docked more time which put him lower than fourth? (is that right?) At that point the White lie became a bigger problem!

[DaveG28]

Just been reading the appeal full verdict on autosport, some assorted gems:

The teams, or some if them, who wanted Brawn etc kicked out appeared to use as one of their reasons that anything which increases downforce back towards 2006 levels is illegal by definition! Presumably those teams are selling their windtunnels??

The fia claim noone got round to showing them evidence overtaking would be adversley affected. Cock up by Ferrari/Renault etc, or fia stitch up??

Ferrari's argument made their own car from previous years illegal, which they said was a "tolerable" illegality while Brawns wasn't!? Worst legal argument ever??

Corker of a terrible argument from Brawn is in there too!!

Most of the claims made by Ferrari etc were laughable, only 1 or 2 made any coherent argument at all. But presumably it's how these things work, make up ten arguments to create a momentum? Would they not have been better sticking to the ones which made sense??

[Lee]

I love the tolerable illegality line that is genius.

I can see that line being used at the nats this year.

Eden Park:
Whyman: "10 second penalty for car 4 for putting the yellow car off the track and into the stream"

Car 4: "But it was Preddy"

Whyman: "ok it's a tolerable illegality. no penalty"
:lol: