Schumacher tyres = expensive [my personal moan!]

[Fiddybux]

Hi all racers,

I'm sure this is something that everyone can agree with...why are tyres, for example, Schumacher pins/spikes/whatever so damn expensive?

It's nuts. Okay you do the research into a good compound that works, then you make a mould, and from that you can produce millions of tyres.

It must cost them about £1 per pair of tyres (probably a lot less), and yet we pay £7.49 + everytime we need some new grip.

If you ask me, Schumacher have something here that is probably more profitable than the tabacco industry....except it doesn't kill you (only the soul inside of you!)

Please feel free to add to my moan here.

Grrr.

[Southwell]

As is everything expensive in the UK....lifes a bitch, yadayada. :P

[bigred5765]

at £20000-30000 for a mould would charge 6-7 quid for them also
but i still think there dear

[losixxx]

a mould cost upwards of £20,000 plus you have to have it refurbished every so many pairs, the suppliers make there cut so do the shops so £8 is expensive but losi and prolines are near £10 a pair, yes you do get inserts but still more expensive than schy's

[Richard Lowe]

I think the mould has paid for itself it's fair to say!

They charge whatever they can get away with, and I bet it costs them a lot less than a quid to make a pair these days...

[jimmy]

Who says they dint get the mould made in china on the cheap ? :D

Seriously though, I agree with rich

[losixxx]

£60-£90,000 worth of moulds at say £3 profit per pair is still a hell of a lot of tyres to sell before they even start making money so in that respect i don't. how many tyres per year in spikes do you think they actually sell? even averaging it out to £70000 for the mould they will need to have sold 23,000 pairs of tyres before any profit is shown

[jimmy]

A hell of a lot would be my guess! I think it's pretty obvious Tyres are profitable for them. The ones that aren't get ditched.

[DCM]

I find it hard to beleive that a mould costs that much to make. And yes, the mould would need refurbishing/replacing occaisionaly, but I realy find it hard to justify the high cost, but it is like everything, we need it, they set their price, and until someone undercuts them with an equivalent tyre, they ain't going to budge.

More so, they don't do any developement work these days in tyres, I remember Bibx and stuff.

[jimmy]

Losixxx din't mention that 65k of that 70k was spent finding someone who could operate the machinery in the first place :D.

[losixxx]

Losixxx din't mention that 65k of that 70k was spent finding someone who could operate the machinery in the first place :D.
the 65k was the import tax/customs charge, mould cost 5k from korea

[jimmy]

:D:D:D:D:D

[mark christopher]

not 100% sure but i thought they made thier moulds in house, though im trying to remember from 98 is when i was a team driver
certainly no dearer than on road tc

[spenner]

can't believe we are moaning about the price of schuey tyres!!!
Most people can get through a day on one set of these tyres, at £8 that works out pretty cheap. Pro lines and Losi tyres lucky to get decent 2nd run £10. I do agree they aren't cheap but if you ran a business would you cut your income ????????

[Jony]

Ok, let's get AutoCAD fired up.

http://www.protomold.co.uk/Default.aspx

The tooling cost with these guys seems to be closer to the £2k mark than the £20k mark, so I reckon we can make a killing. I'll do the drawing if somebody else provides the money :p:):p

[jimmy]

lol

I don't think anyones really 'having a go' at schumacher - just the general costs of racing which everyone knows isn't cheap. :p

[Jony]

Get your pre-orders in! Announcing the "Jony Maxi Spike":

http://j-star.org/images/spike.JPG

Available in a variety of compounds including polystyrene and plaster of paris. £6 per pair, paypal to moremoneythansense@j-star.org (morethansense@j-star.org) .

[jimmy]

what cad program did you use?? put me down for some :D

[jimmy]

If anyone does actually fancy designing a tyre, MedialPRO have a competition to design some RallyX tyres on their website here:

http://www.medialpro.com/concours_ang.html

I opened the file up - realised how 'techie' it was and got bored.. Yeah I can draw a cool tyre, but I don't wanna write numbers down - dayaaam.

[Alfonzo]

The tooling would have been expensive. The profits at this stage, X years down the line must be good but I don't think we should begrudge Schumacher that. They have to make money somewhere, and I'm sure it must be a struggle to make much on kits, to be honest. Of course, we could buy them out of China and help further the demise of our own homegrown manufacturing..

[Fiddybux]

I never expected this kind of response.

The different viewpoints makes for interesting reading.

[DCM]

how come Ballistic Buggy could always make them cheaper.....

[Nick Goodall]

I think the main problem everyone here should really have with Schumacher Tyres is WHAT do Schumacher put back into Off Road nowadays? They don't have any form of kit out, and don't attend any meetings with a team etc, yet rake in a shed load of cash everytime there's a national (just about)!

I think it's a shame but they really don't "support" the 1/10 Off Road section any more so why should we/you all continue using their tyres? Simple answer - because there's nothing out there that's any better when it comes to Grass or some astro tracks.

If someone that actually supports this side of R/C comes out with something that's as good as a Yellow minispike (or even better) then everyone would want to use that anyway i'm sure

[DCM]

totally agree Nick.

[Wraggy]

well said Nick.
i dont think anyone will disagree with any of the comments made there...

[bretts]

not that they would, but what would happen if Schumacher decided to pack in supplying off-road tyres now they're not very intrested in off-road? basically what alternative would work as good?

personally, now I can use glue remover to re-used wheels much easier I'm not buying wheels/inserts anymore which is a saving. but they are getting a bit more expensive each year i agree.

[super__dan]

My issue was (not so much anymore) the quality of both the mini spike and mini pins, they came with no definde edge, almost like pre scrubbed :( In fairness I haven't had one of those for a while though!

[jimmy]

I hear ya dan! I took some back to a shop one time as they were so bad, no nice flat tops to the spikes, just rounded ill defined mess. But like you, not had any like that for a while.

[Lee]

OK so how much time is spent in testing and development to find one tyre and compound that works, think about how many moulds that may have been made to find out the tyre was useless.

If it was easy id do it;)

[DCM]

I was using minispikes 15 years ago, and then some.... put a timeline on it...

[Lee]

i know what you mean, but schuey also have a hold on the market that others will struggle to get into, for instance, the nationals, its pretty much a control tyre for every round so nobody would really try a tyre that they are not allowed to use when it counts.

[Southwell]

If a company developed their own tyre and it was seen to work well, last well and is popular between drivers then i see no reason why the BRCA wouldn't vote in a different supplier for the nationals at the AGM.

[Lindsay]

Over the years I have been involved RC Racing, I have looked into the prospect with my Company who specilise in Rubber products manufacturing alternative Tyres.The main problem is tooling cost & refurbishment of tooling and also there is certain problems with coping designs of existing tyres.Who would take a chance on using un-proven tyres at a meeting ?? I am sure Adam may add a thread to this.
Li;) ;) ;) ndsay

[Nick Goodall]

Technically the BRCA or individual tracks could nominate a tyre that was completely useless at the track, as it would be the same for everyone just a lot harder to get the car set-up to work as well and would probably require more concentration on just getting the thing around - not really ideal for a national championship but it could happen!

Another idea would be to get Ballistic Buggy spikes nominated for every meeting where Schumacher tyres are currently the nominated tyre - would it really make the racing that much worse? I think you'd still have the same quick guys at the top, but a company that's still involved in the Off Road scene would be benefitting. I heard a rumour they were developing another tyre also so that could make things interesting?

Someone just needs to replicate the Yellow compound - i'm sure the ballistic spikes would be just about as good as the Schumachers if they were in Yellow compound and would probably last a tad longer for the average club racers due to the length of spike!

I'm sure something will change soon, either someone will have a new tyre out or maybe Schumacher would even get back into Off Road another day which would be good for everyone.

You could arguably then almost have one manufacturers tyre for each national - that would be a fair way to do it rather then Schumacher having 5/6 of the current rounds.

[losixxx]

Technically the BRCA or individual tracks could nominate a tyre that was completely useless at the track, as it would be the same for everyone just a lot harder to get the car set-up to work as well and would probably require more concentration on just getting the thing around - not really ideal for a national championship but it could happen!

Another idea would be to get Ballistic Buggy spikes nominated for every meeting where Schumacher tyres are currently the nominated tyre - would it really make the racing that much worse? I think you'd still have the same quick guys at the top, but a company that's still involved in the Off Road scene would be benefitting. I heard a rumour they were developing another tyre also so that could make things interesting?

Someone just needs to replicate the Yellow compound - i'm sure the ballistic spikes would be just about as good as the Schumachers if they were in Yellow compound and would probably last a tad longer for the average club racers due to the length of spike!

I'm sure something will change soon, either someone will have a new tyre out or maybe Schumacher would even get back into Off Road another day which would be good for everyone.

You could arguably then almost have one manufacturers tyre for each national - that would be a fair way to do it rather then Schumacher having 5/6 of the current rounds.

nick what would the point in that be, ballistic buggy tyres have just gone up to £7.50 a pair, they don't work as well so for the sake of saving 50p its just not worth the hassle, plus schumachers tend to be more durable than BB's so it will actually cost you more money over a season and not be as good!!!

[losixxx]

how come Ballistic Buggy could always make them cheaper.....

thats why BB have put there tyres up in price then!, there not as durable for one

[Nick Goodall]

losixxx - that's why i put "Another idea would be" :D

It's just a suggestion, if you limited it to two sets per national and a 3rd for A Finalists it wouldn't matter what the tyre was anyway.

I was just pointing out that at least Ballistic Buggy are still developing tyres and supporting the Off Road racing as a whole so wouldn't the money be better off there? At least some of it's getting put back into the sport that way.

[Alfonzo]

Playing Devil's Advocate here a little,

Schumacher make tyres for a price comparable to the competition that works better than all the others for the majority of our racing. What's the problem?

Not that I like paying £16 for a set any more than the next guy :)

[losixxx]

losixxx - that's why i put "Another idea would be" :D

It's just a suggestion, if you limited it to two sets per national and a 3rd for A Finalists it wouldn't matter what the tyre was anyway.

I was just pointing out that at least Ballistic Buggy are still developing tyres and supporting the Off Road racing as a whole so wouldn't the money be better off there? At least some of it's getting put back into the sport that way.


is that why they have discontinued making 2wd front's?

the problem with limiting to 2 sets and marking them would cause problem's
1. not all tracks go as well on brand new tyres
2. a lot more work involved for an already hard pushed club/brca official's to control.
3. what do you do with the park worn tyres you have left if you can't use them next national and don't do regional's. that would work out even more expensive

[dave g]

that was one of my biggest gripes about 10th offroad..the cost of tyres.

now i race 1/8th offroad and the tyres are around £22-£24 a set of 4 glued on wheels with foams..yet they last about 4-5 meetings,if they can make 1/8th tyres for that price theres no reason they cant for 1/10th..its simply the fact schumacher has no real competetion in the offroad market,as others have said,if joe blogs brought out a tire costing a fiver and everyone used them then schumacher would have to toe the price line or go out of business as i think that most of their profit comes from tyres.

dave

[Alfonzo]

That's interesting, I wonder if the electric cars punish the tyres more in so much as they generate maximum torque from a standing start? Nahh, I'm probably talking out of my backside..:D

[Fiddybux]

I dunno...I think you may have something there.

They're lighter and accelerate much quicker...it's bound to put a lot of stresses on the tyres.

[_JP_]

my opinion on this is.....

I am forced to run Schuey tyres at a meeting, in fact we all are, why can't we all get some discount???

I'm not saying we should have an open tyre rule, as I find this a pain in 8th!!
Yes no one forces us to run new tyres, but you have to at times to be competitive, it would just be nice to have them a little cheaper!

[bert digler]

my opinion on this is.....

I am forced to run Schuey tyres at a meeting, in fact we all are, why can't we all get some discount???

I'm not saying we should have an open tyre rule, as I find this a pain in 8th!!
Yes no one forces us to run new tyres, but you have to at times to be competitive, it would just be nice to have them a little cheaper!

well said jase wot do top drivers pay for em about 2 an half quid a set oops the cats out the bag:D

[Jonathan]

I think retail is dear for tyres, in fact I was grumbling on another thread recently....

however, a look back in time shows in 1988 Schumacher tyres cost £6.30 a pair. Think about that for a while :o

Now I remember why I found it hard to persue it as a hobby when I was a wee lad !

[DCM]

but cells don't cost much more now, and you can get away with the cheaper range for most things, and have gone through countless evoloutions of developement, same for motors (to an extent) and cars, but the humble minispike is still the same design but we now got Yellow compound....

[spenner]

Back in 98 or 99, at the 1/10th off road Euro's Teeside they used medial pro tyres. These cost something stupid like £2-3 a pair!!!!!
Perhaps Nick Goodhall and lee martin would remember ?????
What ever happened to them ??

[MiCk B.]

Back in 98 or 99, at the 1/10th off road Euro's Teeside they used medial pro tyres. These cost something stupid like £2-3 a pair!!!!!
Perhaps Nick Goodhall and lee martin would remember ?????
What ever happened to them ??

I remember the Medal pro from the Teeside Euros. They needed a lot of work before they could be used. Cut down the side walls and take a row of spikes off to reduce the diameter.

I'm sure that I've a few pair arount somewhere.

Can't remember the cost of the Medial Pro at Teeside, but they were cheap.
(Sure had to be for people to try them rather the mini-spikes.)

But never heard anything from Medial Pro in 1/10 scale after the Euros.

MiCk B. :-)

[Gayo]

I remember the Medal pro from the Teeside Euros. They needed a lot of work before they could be used. Cut down the side walls and take a row of spikes off to reduce the diameter.


But never heard anything from Medial Pro in 1/10 scale after the Euros.


I remember cutting spikes for hours (litteraly:eh?: ) but it was worth the pain.

Medial Pro lost interest in 1/10 (off-road and TC) circa 2000. They say the market is/was too small and very competitive for them. Maybe with the revival of 1/10 we will see them again ? Not that I miss cutting spikes...:D

Molds are still here and I think that if you ask nicely (and want to buy like 100 sets) they can make them for you.
http://www.medialpro.com/

[elvo]

Time to let the cat out of the bag I guess. A well-known tyre manufacturer is developing an alternative tyre for the Schum mini-spike. I hope they succeed. But like someone else on here said, the real challenge will be getting the compound just right.

It's not just the minispikes either. In the winter season, when racing on grass or gym floor, it's mini pins, same story.

We've allowed Medial Pro Crysp for our national series this year. As a 'budget' tyre. Works OK, doesn't wear AT ALL.

[jcb]

The joys of having a monopoly on the UK tyre market :wtf:

At least when you buy a set of losi or proline tyres you get some foam inserts too, so the slight increase in price in justified.

[Bathy]

RipOFF!

[jimmy]

Hahaha :D

[Kopite]

I have absolutely no idea if this would work, but is the material used to make the tyres recycleable? IE can the manufacturers use the old tyre material again to make a new tyre?

[LiamD]

Exactly why i've always hated racing on rubber tyres. Performance goes off quickly and they're expensive. Unfortunately in off road you ain't got any other option.

Oh the joys of 12th circuit, pre glued tyres that get better as they wear down!

[Northy]

I wish there was another choice. :(

G

PS Cheese is the future!

[dave g]

academy splendids graham :)

[Northy]

They were indeed 'Splendid'. Who imports Acadamy now? :confused:

G

[dave g]

not sure,it was helgar wasnt it?
think they got fed up of getting the same runaround treatment we got :(

[Northy]

Bet they'd be £7 a pair anyway. :(

G

[Richard Lowe]

What would everyone consider to be a reasonable amount to pay for a pair of tires assuming equal performance and wear to Schuey yellows?

Don't say £1 :D

[Gaz_Stanton]

Totally depends on duration. I wouldn't mind over £50 a pair if it's fit and forget for the season.
If it's a set a run then closer to that pound - and then some back for returning the bald carcass. :)

EDIT: After wasting most of this afternoon on tyre prep for Tiverton some pre-mounts would be cool...

[NeilD]

What would everyone consider to be a reasonable amount to pay for a pair of tires assuming equal performance and wear to Schuey yellows?

Don't say £1 :D

A fiver with inserts?

[sosidge]

I'm sorry but I think most of you are being very unfair to Schumacher over the cost of tyres. They are not ripping you off and it is not a conspiracy to exploit the market for maximum profit.

Are you saying you can't afford £8 a pair? Probably most of you can especially if you are already running at the sharp end of regional and national competition, and travelling hundreds of miles most weekends. For a club runner that £8 pair of tyres will last half a season.

Is £8 a pair overpriced within the market? Clearly not, as every other tyre is around the same price or slightly more

Is anyone forcing you to buy Schumacher product? Most of the time no, as there are alternative tyres that can be used. The only people forcing you to buy more tyres are yourselves through your desire to be competitive.

Just because Schumacher have, on this occasion, paid for their mould many times over from tyre sales, doesn't mean they should cut the price to £2 a pair all of a sudden. What about the tyre types and compounds that they still produce but hardly anyone buys? If it really rains one day in the year and the call goes out for blue full spikes then everyone expects them to be available. I wouldn't be surprised if they lost money on several of the tyre moulds they have made over the years. And remember they have about 40 employees (plus hundreds of trade customers worldwide) that need to put food on the table, the tyre sales are probably a reliable income for the company in an unreliable market.

[DCM]

the moulds are the same for the different compounds, only different for carcass/spike design.

I don't think anyone is calling for them to be cheap cheap, but hey, chuck inserts in would be a help.

[Lee]

From what i have read there are various issues from what i can see. If someone said to me you can go and race on 1 set of tyres all day i would see that as super cheap. £25 on tyres aint too bad.when you have to put new boots on every run to be competitive it gets expensive. But like sosidge says it is peoples competitiveness that makes it expensive along with the brca rules.
If the brca made a rule of 1 dry set of tyres and a wet combo per track per day and mark them up at booking in then with round by round qualifying everyone would be in the same boat. Plus it would be cheap racing.

I have been racing touring cars for years and my tyre bill most years has been well over £1500 for a summer series, you boys should count your self lucky:D;).

[Alfonzo]

£1500 a season!!!! Jeeezzz :eh?:

Sosidge - I couldn't agree more.

[Fiddybux]

Great reading :)

[bert digler]

I'm sorry but I think most of you are being very unfair to Schumacher over the cost of tyres. They are not ripping you off and it is not a conspiracy to exploit the market for maximum profit.

Are you saying you can't afford £8 a pair? Probably most of you can especially if you are already running at the sharp end of regional and national competition, and travelling hundreds of miles most weekends. For a club runner that £8 pair of tyres will last half a season.

Is £8 a pair overpriced within the market? Clearly not, as every other tyre is around the same price or slightly more

Is anyone forcing you to buy Schumacher product? Most of the time no, as there are alternative tyres that can be used. The only people forcing you to buy more tyres are yourselves through your desire to be competitive.

Just because Schumacher have, on this occasion, paid for their mould many times over from tyre sales, doesn't mean they should cut the price to £2 a pair all of a sudden. What about the tyre types and compounds that they still produce but hardly anyone buys? If it really rains one day in the year and the call goes out for blue full spikes then everyone expects them to be available. I wouldn't be surprised if they lost money on several of the tyre moulds they have made over the years. And remember they have about 40 employees (plus hundreds of trade customers worldwide) that need to put food on the table, the tyre sales are probably a reliable income for the company in an unreliable market.
i think its not schumachers fault as its supply and demand but a fiver a set would be a fair price and the same for all other manufacturers because a set of prolines in the us cost roughly a fiver with inserts:D

[strobe]

I would personally like to see Schumacher do what Proline and Losi do with there tyres and put foams in with them and Keep the price around the £7-£8 price tag.

Has any body contacted Schumacher to see what they have to say?

[PaulRotheram]

Probably tell us to p-off as then theyd be lessening their profit. I know for a fact if i ran a business i'd be looking to make as much profit as possible.

[burgie]

Tyres are reasnoably expensive, but as has been said before, it depends on how competitive you want to be.

Personally, have just run about 12 weeks worth of indoor buggy racing on ONE set of yellow mini-pins....the steering was something of an issue towards the end though, but i can't think why!

I have just bought a set of yellow minispikes for the outdoor racing - i'll be looking to get two possibly three weeks out of the rears and probably 3-4 weeks out of the fronts, so it's not really a big cost for me.

I usually run blue's all round all round, and they last a bit longer!

[DCM]

Probably tell us to p-off as then theyd be lessening their profit. I know for a fact if i ran a business i'd be looking to make as much profit as possible.

Yes, but business like RC isn't about making MXIMUM profit from a unit sale, it is a two way street, as if they look after the racer, the racer will continue to buy their product. If they ignore the wishes of the customer and then an 'alternative' is found, then you can kiss customers goodbye.

The American firms have a better idea, as they are their own distributor, the price reflects this, Schumacher are the same for UK/Europe but thier price is reflective of an importer like CML.

[PaulRotheram]

That's in the perfect scenario though steve, as said, schumacher have no competitors, so if anything was asked for us to have a gain then i'd bet theyd say no, untill they were given a run for their money that is, from another company.

[bert digler]

arent they gonna redesigned anyway cus haveu seen them balloon with the brushless motors we use me thinks they are going to shred:mad:

[Lee]

Bert: it was the same on road, we used to have to belt the inside of the tyres too stop them ballooning and then splitting, plus the car will become very unstable when the tyres are ballooned

[bert digler]

Bert: it was the same on road, we used to have to belt the inside of the tyres too stop them ballooning and then splitting, plus the car will become very unstable when the tyres are ballooned

the only thing is that schumacher like said in this thread are making a killin on the old tooling used for these tyres and do schumacher make them because years ago they had sorex on them i presume they are bought in from the far east l:o

[DCM]

The issue with on-road rubber, is that if you make the tyre too thick, it takes an age to warm up, then overheats.....

If there is an issue with mini-spikes, then either people find another tyre or complain.