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Aero Racing
25-04-2007, 02:44 PM
To everyone who is interested,


This is a one time reaction on the multiple posts that have been spread today about the Aero Company. We were very surprised to see these kinds of accusations on the internet. As you all know the internet is a fantastic medium but it can also be abused in an awful way, this last thing is what happened today. As you probably saw there were accusations about stealing a car and abusing someone’s name as a designer. In the normal world it’s appropriate that you first find some prove and then accuse someone of something, but when you do this in a decent and civilized way you do this in front of a court, and not via the internet (were everybody can post what he/she wants).

We leave some questions open so that the people themselves can think about these:

This is a brand new company, it takes a lot of guts and a lot of thinking and studying to get something started in the real world (especially the r/c world). It also costs a lot of money! Would someone take the risk of losing all their invested money and their honour by stealing something and start a business on this basis?

This project is supported by a University; do you think a University approves a project in 5 minutes? Without checking how businesses and contracts are arranged? Don’t you think with this kind of project you have to persuade a jury to get their support?

If you where in the shoes of the designer and (suppose) you saw your car that was being built by someone else (suppose: without an agreement) and winning a big race, would you wait 2 weeks until the pre-order list (with a lot of orders!) is online to react and claim it has been stolen?

We find this a very sad business that all the websites are making this public without checking out the information (which is very heavy accusations and trying to destroy a young and ambitious company).

We try to handle business in a way of decency and moral ethics. Accusations, lies and jealousy are not part of that; this kind of proper business seems to be odd to some. We also want to say that websites and reporters are due to have a moral code which involves a check and double check of their sources before making any news public, we hope every reporter has done this. Spreading news that isn’t true is also illegal. We hope everyone who spread the rumour will have the decency to put this letter online.

We know who put this onto the net and we wish them a lot of luck in the future. We can only say that this is not our way of doing business and we won’t participate in that low level of business. If someone is thinking they are in their rights they can always go to court, we on the other hand try to answer on the race track and building proper cars for serious racers.




Best regards,

Aero racing

ApexSpeed
25-04-2007, 03:07 PM
But you really didn't answer anything with your statement. More than anything else, a lot of hot air, really.

You're using the Durango name as well as Gerd Strenge's name as a means to promote your car. He is very adamantly saying that he has nothing to do with your company and is concerned that your car is almost identical to his design.



So you claim that you have bought the rights to the Durango. Is that true or not? Have you purchased the rights from the owner of them?

Bathy
25-04-2007, 03:49 PM
But you really didn't answer anything with your statement. More than anything else, a lot of hot air, really.

You're using the Durango name as well as Gerd Strenge's name as a means to promote your car. He is very adamantly saying that he has nothing to do with your company and is concerned that your car is almost identical to his design.



So you claim that you have bought the rights to the Durango. Is that true or not? Have you purchased the rights from the owner of them?

I think you'll find they are pointing out that the whole story is b*llox… someone chucking mud around hoping some might stick!

Time to wish them all the best with the new venture I feel, looking forward to getting my hands on one of these cars.

ApexSpeed
25-04-2007, 03:52 PM
Maybe, but they didn't discount or deny any of the allegations, either. They just answered a lot of questions with MORE questions.

In my world, that's called double-talk. We 'mericans are really good at it. ;)

Lee Martin
25-04-2007, 04:01 PM
i think its best to leave it two the companies and people involved rather than to speculate....

none of us know the whole story, only the people involved....

so i think its wrong to sway opinions at this time

Lee
25-04-2007, 04:05 PM
Totally agree Lee, its not really for us to be discussing on a public forum for the world to see, we do not know the facts.

Personally i think the threads should be locked until aero or mr durango clear this up officially.;)

Lee Martin
25-04-2007, 04:07 PM
i wont lock the thread. people can still speak there mind. thts wat these are for....but maybe just add some consideration....

things are not always as they seem........................

Southwell
25-04-2007, 04:11 PM
Agreed, although i find it easier to blame Bathy....

Lee
25-04-2007, 04:13 PM
Furry Muff Mate;)

People love to knock something thats good i suppose its just the way things are nowadays.

Im sure it will all work out in the end.

jimmy
25-04-2007, 04:15 PM
Pidge has the right idea, I don't want to see it locked since the original press release wasn't even on this forum - it WILL get talked about elsewhere if its not on here, so theres not much point.

Sensible input and discussion is what's needed though - not flying off the handle (from either perspective).

I think maybe there are more public statements to come - but if not we can at least discuss the things that have been stated. And unless either party asked for this discussion to stop it should really carry on. Locking a thread which could be considered unbalanced (in either direction) is not fair either.


So, let's cool it down a little since I think most people don't know the true facts behind anything that has been said - but I am sure it will all come out in due course.

:)

DCM
25-04-2007, 04:27 PM
I think clarity of the statement on the Aero website might go a long way to explaining things.

Garry
25-04-2007, 04:34 PM
What statement? All there is at the moment is a mini race report:

First race gave a Tq and a first win at a UK National for Lee martin.
Congratulations to Lee!!

Lee's reaction :
"I've had my Aero for about a week now and all I can say is wow! Each time it hits the track it allows me to go faster in different sections of the track than ever before, from the first time I had driven the Aero too now it keeps excelling itself, getting faster all the time. I have to thank the car and the Aero team for being fast enough to give me my first national win at its first meeting! and with constant development i can only see it getting faster!"

If you got questions or something goes wrong with the pre-ordering just give us an e-mail and we try to sort it out as soon as possible.

Aeroracing is founded by two ambitious and experienced racers providing the
ultimate racing car that many people have been looking for. The model has
been named ‘A one’, Lee Martin will race this unique car for the first time
at the first UK National based at the Tiverton track in Devon. We want to
wish Lee a warm welcome to the team and good luck for this racing season!

BK Racing-products
Belgium
E-mail info@aeroracing.eu



Not what was originally put up BTW.

ulrich
25-04-2007, 04:46 PM
[QUOTE=Garry;35593]What statement? All there is at the moment is a mini race report

Could it be this??
http://www.redrc.net/2007/04/gerd-strenge-official-statement/

ApexSpeed
25-04-2007, 04:47 PM
I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but it's really interesting to see people post support for one side or another with very little information to base an intelligent opinion on the conflict. As was stated before, there is little factual information out there—certainly not enough for any of us to say who is right or wrong in this deal. HOWEVER, we can fill in the gaps and form opinions on this, right or wrong.

It is already a very public dispute developing, and not something stirred up by us chatty gossipers on an internet forum.



What we do know is:

1) that Durango (Gerd Strenge) designed and developed a car that has had great success, and is not sold to the public.

2) He has since sold the design and development to a larger company who intends to put it into mass production (apparently).

3) Aero racing has released a car almost identical to the Durango in most visible facets, with a few changes, while marketing their new design with the comments that they bought the "car" from Durango and Gerd Strenge, with the intent of mass production.

4) Gerd has aggressively denied selling the design to Aero Racing, and is angry at the fact that they are selling and promoting their car using his and his company's name. There seems to be more than one source for this information.

5) Aero has made a public statement to address the issue, and completely sidestepped any direct comment about the car, Gerd Strenge, their marketing, the use of the Durango designs or anything else associated with the allegations—only blaming the internet for the turmoil thrust upon them.




Frankly, there are two courts that we all deal with. One is the court of law, where this issue will undoubtedly be decided. The second has no parameters, barriers or rules, and that is the court of public opinion. You don't have to be guilty or innocent to be judged by your peers. We can all see the story unfold in front of us and figure out the travels from point A to point B.



http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

DCM
25-04-2007, 04:48 PM
Tiverton National Interviews.
Aero Racing: Bob, Kim, Danny, Cindy, Siri.

What is the relation of this car to the Durango, and why isn’t the original name used?
We bought the stuff off Gerd Strenge in January this year, although we have been developing the product for a year now. The name Durango cannot be used due to Chrylser registering this name for one of their products.

that is from Jimmy's interveiw, which actualy, when read, does not imply he bought the Durango rights, just that he bought a Durango off Gerd Strenge.

but then on another post Aero Racing states
We talked about the idea with Gerd and if he was interested selling the designs, he agreed. That's how it all started...
Reply With Quote

which implies that Gerd sold the design.

To be honest, I don't know what to beleive IS the truth, just Aero Racing need to say one story and keep to it, then we can beleive something.

Lee Martin
25-04-2007, 04:59 PM
i dnt see have they have said more than one???

remeber thses are not english people so looking for perfect wording is not advised.

mattym0310
25-04-2007, 05:05 PM
there is one thing. on this forum you are adament that the car is not a durango and is completely different and developed yet on your website it said it is a durango but with a different name quoted.... "Actually nothing will change except the name. SAME CAR - DIFFERENT NAME" [that was before the text was changed] also you said you werent aloud to call it a durango because of the jeep car [also suggesting it is the same car just different name]. you say... "First of all it's not a dublicate! The concept idea is the same but the car will be in graphite with alu parts . Secondly we've made a lot of changes to the car, the steering is different, major changes to the geometrie (front and rear) etc..." even after saying it is the same car. its all very confusing.
then you also say, to add to the arguement about buying rights or not buying rights, "But we don't need to defend anything I guess, we bought the rights on the car and used the concept, quite simple
We talked about the idea with Gerd and if he was interested selling the designs, he agreed. That's how it all started..."

i also just noticed gerd's name is on the pre-order list :o [but im guessing someone is putting them on to start specualtion]

im really confused, and just so you all know, i am not taking sides im just putting forward ideas and what has been said to summarise abit

BenG
25-04-2007, 05:06 PM
Heres what I think has happended.

Aero Racing have show Gerd up. I mean, is he into business or what? If he sold the durnago cars, he would be loaded, instead, I belive you can order them for £1000, with a waiting list bigger than a chevrolet's bonnet.

Now AERO come along, do very well, sell 53 cars quickly, make lots of money, and he is trying to slur them.

Thats bad business. If he had done it himself, he could be loaded. AERO beat him to it, and so he has failed.

Go for it AERO, if you did buy the rights, keep going, as something like a corrupt 'businessman' should'nt stop you, I know I will be buying a AERO-ONe as soon as I get rid of my crappy MKI4 :D:D



However, if Gerd isnt corrupt, and you stole his design, (and my AERO name, I had it owned like years go on this very forum) then I would be scared, very scared, and wait till you get 53 angry 'almost' customers :mad:

And this is a very valid point 'He is also very proud that a major company in the RC industry has agreed to take the car into its programme and products'

also, can you explain this maths to me?


"We bought the stuff off Gerd Strenge in January this year, although we have been developing the product for a year now." :confused:

We want the TRUTH :mad:

Lee Martin
25-04-2007, 05:11 PM
well im sure some truth will come very soon.........

i dont kno, its nothing to do with me...all im trying ot do is to stop people jumping at specualtions.....

what if someone got offered a better price once they had sold the company and then decided to resell and deny all knowldge of selling up???

there are so many things you can make up.....but who knows the truth, not us thats for sure!

BenG
25-04-2007, 05:12 PM
there are so many things you can make up.....but who knows the truth, not us thats for sure!

If you ask me that is Truly unprofessional, arent you like their main driver? :confused:

Lee Martin
25-04-2007, 05:13 PM
and how would you say thats truely unprofessional.....???

Chris Doughty
25-04-2007, 05:17 PM
TYRC - what planet are you from? Lee just drives this car at the weekends how is it 'un-pro' for him not to know the inside workings of the company?

I don't know what is going on, neither am I going to read into statements from 2 'sides' where english is not their first language.

let them bash it out in German behind closed doors and then lets read about it after.

Lee Martin
25-04-2007, 05:18 PM
thanks chris......

well put!!!

ApexSpeed
25-04-2007, 05:29 PM
let them bash it out in German behind closed doors and then lets read about it after.

I want Pay-Per-View! Who needs closed doors? ;)


:D

jimmy
25-04-2007, 05:30 PM
TYRC's post is the most random thing I've ever seen, attacking both sides in an equally savage manner.

This is the danger of letting people who know nothing about the situation loose on a keyboard for their minds to go WILD. :o

Rob Fitzgerald
25-04-2007, 05:31 PM
"Freddie Starr ate my hamster"

someone said it so it must be true :rolleyes:

Northy
25-04-2007, 05:33 PM
I am the meat

ApexSpeed
25-04-2007, 05:36 PM
TYRC's post is the most random thing I've ever seen, attacking both sides in an equally savage manner.

Hey, schizophreniacs can have computers, too. :D

DCM
25-04-2007, 05:39 PM
well im sure some truth will come very soon.........

i dont kno, its nothing to do with me...all im trying ot do is to stop people jumping at specualtions.....

what if someone got offered a better price once they had sold the company and then decided to resell and deny all knowldge of selling up???

there are so many things you can make up.....but who knows the truth, not us thats for sure!

I think that is about right, none of us know what really has gone on, one way or the other, maybe they are both fibbing or not telling the whole truth. In the end, the company I feel sorry for, is the company who isn't named, who has 'bought it' and now see's this.

xx4-nutter
25-04-2007, 06:22 PM
We want the TRUTH :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ-uuUXeTH0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ-uuUXeTH0)

:D :D :D :D :D

Take homers advice on this one mate :)


" You want the truth !, YOU WANT THE TRUTH !! YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH !, COS WHEN YOU REACH OVER AND PUT YOURE HAND INTO A PILE OF GOO THAT WAS YOURE BEST FRIENDS FACE ! * palms to chest, fingers upright lol * youll know what to do !. FOR GET IT TYRC ITS CHINA TOWN !! " Homer j. simpson

;)

i think the car is cool by the way...... just add that little one lol

Garry D.

MATTY
25-04-2007, 06:27 PM
LOL :D

mattym0310
25-04-2007, 06:38 PM
HAHA! :p :D

Funkymojo
25-04-2007, 07:10 PM
If you ask me that is Truly unprofessional, arent you like their main driver? :confused:

tyrc..i don't think you're making much sense. Lee just drives the car, that's it!! He is not a shareholder/business partner of Aero Racing. What goes behind close doors when Aero Racing's business is concerned has got nothing to do with Lee. Ask any factory sponsored drivers and they'll tell you that their job is to only drive and win races and that they are in no way involved in any of the company's business happenings or dealings...so why call Lee unprofessional? I feel that you should understand the situation more before calling others unprofessional...

BenG
25-04-2007, 07:23 PM
Sorry, I guess sometimes I do talk gibberish sometimes.

Guess it was the 2 week old melted ice cream I ate the other day.

I wil still be buying one of these cars, dont get me wrong. If, I can get rid of my crappy MKi4.

I also do have skitszophrenia, I try not to let pualo get the best of me, sometimes he escapes and makes me speel bad and talk crap ;)

Adam Skelding
25-04-2007, 07:29 PM
I am the meat

Oh how I laughed...

Just Polishing of some pepsi max..... Do you need the bottle?

bert digler
25-04-2007, 07:42 PM
Oh how I laughed...

Just Polishing of some pepsi max..... Do you need the bottle?

and i thought i caused trouble im an amatuer compared to th is dude:D

jimmy
25-04-2007, 07:54 PM
An updated and thorough statement from Gerd Strenge in reply to Aeros statement.

http://www.redrc.net/2007/04/gerd-strenge-the-facts/#more-2700

bert digler
25-04-2007, 08:00 PM
An updated and thorough statement from Gerd Strenge in reply to Aeros statement.

http://www.redrc.net/2007/04/gerd-strenge-the-facts/#more-2700

i think thats case closed he bought the rights far play at least we all have chance to own an aero:yawn:

Adam Skelding
25-04-2007, 08:01 PM
Hmmmm.

Best let these guys battle it out....

Hope somenone has enough $$$ for a solictitors bill..

Don't hassle the Pidge about it though. He only drives the car and wears his hat a a jaunty angle....

Adam Skelding
25-04-2007, 08:03 PM
i think thats case closed he bought the rights far play at least we all have chance to own an aero:yawn:

Re-read the post.....

jimmy
25-04-2007, 08:05 PM
i think thats case closed he bought the rights far play at least we all have chance to own an aero:yawn:


Indeed, I think you mis-read what he said there :eh?:

BenG
25-04-2007, 08:07 PM
Indeed, I think you mis-read what he said there :eh?:

I thought that :o

bert digler
25-04-2007, 08:07 PM
Re-read the post.....

beer football oople shit got confused its o j simpson all again did he do it:D i bet he has one of them secret camera thingy me bobs:D

jimmy
25-04-2007, 08:09 PM
This is why crack cocaine should be banned! :D

oh, it is... never mind :eh?:

bert digler
25-04-2007, 08:11 PM
This is why crack cocaine should be banned! :D

oh, it is... never mind :eh?:

yes smack jack the crackaman:D

BenG
25-04-2007, 08:15 PM
lol :D:D:D:D

MikePimlott
25-04-2007, 08:21 PM
Just Polishing of some pepsi max..... Do you need the bottle?


:D :D :D :D :D New body shell donations to Northy please.

gramey
25-04-2007, 10:08 PM
:) Prior to the Aero being announced I emailed Gerd Strenge to find out if it was possible to buy a Durango and never even got a reply. All I can say is that I've put our names down for two of these buggies and I intend to keep them there.
I really couldn't give a 4 X about the in fighting it could be called a Bo**ocks as far as I'm concerned, as long as when the time comes that I hand over my hard earned money I get what I've paid for!

As for dragging Lee into this I think it's a bit unfair to draw him into making comments about something over which he has no control.:)

loose
25-04-2007, 10:19 PM
Along with my collegue Gordon (Gord) Strange I have designed a new car based on the Tango. It will be released under the monika of "The Bero" and is significantly lighter than its competitors. Our factory driver Martin Lee is kickin ass on preliminary tests.

Orders will be takes soon with all proceeds contributing to my wine cellar (rack). Cos I've put a big dent in it trying to keep up with this thread.

Peace. :cool:

ApexSpeed
25-04-2007, 10:26 PM
I donno about you guys, but I'm FAR more interested in knowing who the "major player" in the R/C racing world is that struck the deal with Gerd, and now will be responsible for the attack dogs sent out to "chat" with Aero.



Yummm... let's speculate... Schumacher? Xray? Corally? Maybe Associated? Honestly, if it's any mass market company with refined production skillz, then I WANT ONE. :D




Boy, this has been a fun day in la la land. :o :eh?:

Col
25-04-2007, 11:17 PM
I donno about you guys, but I'm FAR more interested in knowing who the "major player" in the R/C racing world is that struck the deal with Gerd

Never a truer word spoken. All the clarification that's needed is the name of who the "design" or whatever was sold to, along with the patents. Till then, best of luck to Aero, Lee and all associated with the project.

Innocent until proven guilty.

dave g
25-04-2007, 11:19 PM
well i would have thought maybe someone like xray,cant see corally wanting to get into the offraod scene,schumacher...hmm no,everyone else seems to have their own cars so stumped..

xx4 fanatic
25-04-2007, 11:29 PM
losi hasn't had a quality new 4wd car in a while...but i dont see them buying it and Gil Losi doing his stuff at Kyosho

Spencer Mulcahy
25-04-2007, 11:57 PM
I fore one feel sorry fore Lee with all this going on the man just won his first national and I know that it ment alot to him from his reaction on the rostrum at the end, so dont let all this shite take anything away from you Lee you drove one of the most mature races I have seen for a long time and try to forget all this ready for Kiddy in two weeks:)

Ron Burgundy
26-04-2007, 12:08 AM
After reading all the to'ing and fro'ing, it is quite strange and disturbing, firstly to question lee's professionalism and then in one particular instance to have a go at all parties involved.. pretty silly hey

I dont think people really have any idea of the enormity of this, the net makes the world a very very small place and a huge amount of money and people are involved...

Its best to end the speculation, enjoy the racing and stay well and truly out of it all as it is of no concern to any of us what happens behind closed doors - not one of us has any money involved i will guarantee..

To all who want one of these cars whether it be a Durango, Aero one or unkown name, why worry about it... Noone can get or afford a Durango so forget it there, Aero may not have a car soon so forget it there, and the unkown "RC Player" may be producing it soon so forget it there for the meantime.. You guys are all going to get your hands on the car at some stage in your lives and I also can guarantee that it not because of a loyalty to Aero, who cares who the company is, its the car you all want and the car that you will get - EVENTUALLY...

SO I guess the bottom line is, let it all play out and unfold, dont add your stupid two cents about who is right and who is a theif and let it go!

You will all have a "DURAERANON" in the near future! (like the name, i made that one up all by myself):yawn:

Teddy truman
26-04-2007, 07:02 AM
what a mess. but does it really matter to any of us?:o I for one am quite close friends with the aero team and in the past they have shown me no reason for me to call them liars, so im not going to start now. i believe what gerd is doing is very wrong!!!! this should have never been put to a r/c mag online that's just plane wrong.:mad: I am sure that bob and his business uni boff's behind the project have some grounds to go on.

pilow
26-04-2007, 07:25 AM
It's already public, Gerd did nothing wrong to then bring his side into the open, people are nice and friends and lose money on both sides, but at the end of the day one guy made this car, and if you were him you would do more! Any of us would, to protect our years of hard work.

Teddy truman
26-04-2007, 07:34 AM
what Gerd did was very wrong! this should have all been sorted before brought up on the internet/ released to mag's how people can not see that...... What he has done yeah i can see what he is doing, but its plane bitchy now.

jimmy
26-04-2007, 07:45 AM
I would be a hipocrite if I did not step in here and say I 100% agree with someones right to issue a statement to put their side into the public domain.

Whether you agree / believe either party is another matter.

Closed, to cool things down! :)

JBRacing
26-04-2007, 09:04 AM
I really don’t get this guy!!!!!
I think that there is a lot that is not being said on print….
There could be an option that the , Mr. Strenge was about to sell to Aero the company and before he did he got a better offer and sold it to some one else (which for some reason he doesn’t say his mane).
By the way, were is this "Major player"?!?!?!? I know that if I was to by a company for a great deal of money and some one stole my rights I would sue them to there last buck. But this guy, he sits quite and doing nothing! I find it to be very suspicious…
Any way, if there were rights stole it is a criminal violation and Aero would have been sued by now but they weren't! (I wonder…..)

I wish Aero the best of luck with their project and always remember that there is no "bad publicity" and this guy just did you a favor….

Good luck
Amit Bublil

BenG
26-04-2007, 09:20 AM
I really don’t get this guy!!!!!
I think that there is a lot that is not being said on print….
There could be an option that the , Mr. Strenge was about to sell to Aero the company and before he did he got a better offer and sold it to some one else (which for some reason he doesn’t say his mane).
By the way, were is this "Major player"?!?!?!? I know that if I was to by a company for a great deal of money and some one stole my rights I would sue them to there last buck. But this guy, he sits quite and doing nothing! I find it to be very suspicious…
Any way, if there were rights stole it is a criminal violation and Aero would have been sued by now but they weren't! (I wonder…..)

I wish Aero the best of luck with their project and always remember that there is no "bad publicity" and this guy just did you a favor….

Good luck
Amit Bublil


I agree Aero have been working on this a year (they said) so why hasnt Gerd done anything before?

jimmy
26-04-2007, 09:26 AM
Good day,

Your second line voids the rest of your post-
"I think that there is a lot that is not being said on print….

But then you proceed to attack the reputation of various people on things you have only assumed and speculated about. I don't like to see anyone attacked with a blunt axe of rumour and gossip - which is whyI closed the thread that this post should have been in.

The only FACT you stated is that there is a lot being said that you don't know about. So lets leave it there.

jimmy
26-04-2007, 09:32 AM
I agree Aero have been working on this a year (they said) so why hasnt Gerd done anything before?


Gerd found out about this project a little over a week ago. (again, please READ the statements by both parties)

BenG
26-04-2007, 09:43 AM
Gerd found out about this project a little over a week ago. (again, please READ the statements by both parties)


ohhhhhhhh, sorry :(

JBRacing
26-04-2007, 09:47 AM
Good day,

Your second line voids the rest of your post-
"I think that there is a lot that is not being said on print….

But then you proceed to attack the reputation of various people on things you have only assumed and speculated about. I don't like to see anyone attacked with a blunt axe of rumour and gossip - which is whyI closed the thread that this post should have been in.

The only FACT you stated is that there is a lot being said that you don't know about. So lets leave it there.

I will accept your comment although I don't agree with it and I will explain:
As things are said through the on going announcements between Aero and Mr. Strenge, It is a FACT stated By Mr. Strenge that he is no longer the owner of his past company and there for he has no right of blaming anybody for anything. The only one how can retaliate to Aero's actions and publicity is the NEW and secret owner of "Durango".
Mr. Strenge (and what I'm about to say is arguable) could have helped Aero even with the slightest of advise and they may say that the consulted with him (legally speaking)
My biggest wonder is of the whereabouts of this third party. I don’t see any logic for a company to seat quite when her rights are being publicly stolen. Unless this third party doesn't exist or on the other hand that there were no violation of rights.

jimmy
26-04-2007, 09:49 AM
Exactly.
The point is that we don't know the facts, but people are talking like they do. We can talk about what is public knowlege, but when it comes to attacking companies for no reason other than bias its a step too far.
Worse yet is attacking an individual - and I find it incredibly bad taste.

dave g
26-04-2007, 09:51 AM
maybe the 'other' company prefers to sort this out in a less public matter and may be doing this as we speak,either way none of us know what is true or false,only 3 parties know this so lets leave that upto them to sort out,i just feel sorry for lee.

dave

jimmy
26-04-2007, 09:58 AM
Again you are stating as Fact something you have no idea about. Your opinion is one thing, stating facts is something that should be reserved for the players involved.


I will accept your comment although I don't agree with it and I will explain:
As things are said through the on going announcements between Aero and Mr. Strenge, It is a FACT stated By Mr. Strenge that he is no longer the owner of his past company and there for he has no right of blaming anybody for anything. The only one how can retaliate to Aero's actions and publicity is the NEW and secret owner of "Durango".
Mr. Strenge (and what I'm about to say is arguable) could have helped Aero even with the slightest of advise and they may say that the consulted with him (legally speaking)
My biggest wonder is of the whereabouts of this third party. I don’t see any logic for a company to seat quite when her rights are being publicly stolen. Unless this third party doesn't exist or on the other hand that there were no violation of rights.

DCM
26-04-2007, 10:03 AM
As this goes on, it gets rather petty, I am sure everything will come out in the wash as to what conspired to get to the events we seen yesterday.

jimmy
26-04-2007, 10:04 AM
maybe the 'other' company prefers to sort this out in a less public matter and may be doing this as we speak,either way none of us know what is true or false,only 3 parties know this so lets leave that upto them to sort out,i just feel sorry for lee.

dave

Amen to that Dave.


This forum is now moderated to stop crazy posts from slipping through the net.:rolleyes:

BenG
26-04-2007, 10:08 AM
Amen to that Dave.

Exactly, I mean, what effect do we have making any theories or suggestions on the topic?

None.

So I for one am going to sit down, shut up, and enjoy waiting for the aero, as I am sure this will be rectified soon.

JBRacing
26-04-2007, 10:27 AM
I would like to add an apology if I sounded accusing in any matter of Gred personaly.

Lee Martin
26-04-2007, 10:46 AM
jimmy,

hate to be a player hater here.....but if you are getting a little annoyed with speculation and peoples ideas then your going against you own worded and your in agreement that this should not have been brought into the public eye.

its one way round or the other....

thanks for everyones support regarding myself its good to see and helpful.

jimmy
26-04-2007, 10:52 AM
Not really lee, it was already 'in the public eye' before it was on this forum.
Discussing stuff is fine, attacking individuals isn't.

gramey
26-04-2007, 10:59 AM
Along with my collegue Gordon (Gord) Strange I have designed a new car based on the Tango. It will be released under the monika of "The Bero" and is significantly lighter than its competitors. Our factory driver Martin Lee is kickin ass on preliminary tests.

Orders will be takes soon with all proceeds contributing to my wine cellar (rack). Cos I've put a big dent in it trying to keep up with this thread.

Peace. :cool:
:confused: Would this be the same Gord Strange who has their name on the pre order list or is this purely coincidence?:confused:

Lee Martin
26-04-2007, 11:09 AM
yeh who is that stupid kid putting crap up

jimmy
26-04-2007, 11:10 AM
haha, don't hold back lee. :rolleyes:

Nick Goodall
26-04-2007, 11:15 AM
yeh who is that stupid kid putting crap up

Can't Aero get the IP address? I wouldn't be surprised if it links to someone that uses this forum?

Lee Martin
26-04-2007, 11:16 AM
u would expect so!!!


no holding back jimmy!!!!!!!!

Northy
26-04-2007, 11:58 AM
He is not the meat!

ApexSpeed
26-04-2007, 12:32 PM
Boy, there are an awful lot of individuals taking great liberties with the facts and what is known to make LONG leaps to some ridiculously synthetic conclusions.

If the deal for Gerd's design was initiated in January, then considering it is April, it is obvious to anyone that neither party involved was ready to release this information to the public. Business deals don't happen over night.

The fact that this deal has been in progress for 3-4 months already indicates that this is a very involved process for both parties involved. One could assume, in this case, that the company putting their time and money into Gerd's car has plans to reveal and produce the car on their own accord, and would not have wanted to have any of this happen prematurely.

The fact that there is a screen cap of an Aero front page (from their website), and an interview Jimmy did with the Aero team at the Nationals that clearly states that the car IS a Durango—"Same car—different name"—and that the project is a "corporation" with Mister Strenge (I believe the word intended was co-operation and not corporation), it is obvious to anyone with a triple digit IQ, that Gerd is trying to protect his business deal in progress and the investment of his new business partner. At this point, it's called damage control.



Let's take a look at this from Gerd's perspective for a second. You have worked for many years designing, developing, testing and racing a car that you never intended to get into mass production with. After many years of success, you strike a deal with a large company who is willing to tackle the production for mass market distribution. In the time that you strike that deal to the time that the deal is completed, another company springs out to surprise you with a car virtually identical to the one you designed and are in the process of selling the rights and patents to, and they claim that YOU are collaborating with them to produce and sell this car with them.

I would say that if it were me in Gerd's shoes, I would be livid beyond belief. Making a statement to an internet magazine would be an immediate course of action to get things cleared up in the public eye, but that would follow contact with this second company. I would also involve lawyers at that point, too, to protect my name, my project, my designs and my new partner's investment.




We know the cars are the same. We know Aero claims to have purchased the design (or just a car) from Gerd, and they claim that they are working jointly with him on the production of the new car. We also know that Gerd has adamantly denied any and ALL connections with Aero, more than one time.



There are few things that can be assumed so far, that aren't perfectly clear already.

One things is absolutely 100% for sure, though. In the court of law, I would rather have a big company and a team of lawyers working on my side of the case than be a small, independent start-up company with few assets and less resources.









That being said, someone produce this damn car already—I want to buy one!

;)



doug

Fabs
26-04-2007, 03:59 PM
Here's my opinion:

There are no rights to buy !!! As things are, Gerd hasn't patented anything and the Durango is only a concept, but NOTHING prevents anyone from using that same concept. So Gerd has nothing to sell apart from the drawings for his car, but anyone could copy the whole car while slightly changing every part so that it doesn't fall into the realm of copyright. Which is what, as I understand, Aero did.

However in such cases, a gentleman agreement would have been a minimum. One side states it has been done, the other states that it hasn't been done.

To be frankly honest, I don't really care who's right, but as a design engineer I'd be quite upset if someone had blatantly copied me and then pretended I'd agreed with it.

rich_cree
26-04-2007, 04:32 PM
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58339

These two didn't steal anything with a patent and they are still in mucho trouble (not saying that is what's gone on here though).

ApexSpeed
26-04-2007, 04:39 PM
Everything I have read about the Durango says it's heavily patented.

It's unlikely that anyone would try to sell an idea without having some sort of ownership of the concept. This is done through patents and licensing. Without these, there is nothing to prevent the company that Gerd is dealing with from just copying the car like Aero, and not striking any business deal with him directly.


Gerd doesn't strike me as a stupid man. I wholly doubt that this car is left to the public domain for ownership rights.


You never know, though. Stranger things have happened.

Lee Martin
26-04-2007, 04:41 PM
apex....

u speak like you kno everyone involved and everything about each company......

so why dont you solve the whole case and just tell us what happened???????

ApexSpeed
26-04-2007, 04:48 PM
I'm speaking of ONLY what I have read—which everyone else has access to. I don't know either parties involved, and don't care to. Most of what is debatable out there in this issue is common business law taught in high school. This isn't rocket science. :rolleyes:


I just find it fascinating that this whole ordeal has developed around a car that was never intended for mass production, and now has two different entities arm wrestling over the right to say, "designed by Gerd Strenge."




Lee, it's unfortunate that you're stuffed into the middle of this whole thing. I have a feeling you could win with just about any car in your hands, but nothing good will come of any of this—one way or the other. At this point, unfortunately, you're really the only one here with anything to lose in this. The rest of us morons are just hot air gossiping on a discussion board saying what we think is happening.


I don't doubt that whatever happens, you'll still be piloting a fast car somewhere.

Lee Martin
26-04-2007, 04:58 PM
yeh personally i do not feel that i will loose anything from it all...

it will only make me stronger and faster thats for sure.

PaulRotheram
26-04-2007, 06:31 PM
lee for tq! mahaha

gramey
26-04-2007, 07:43 PM
:) This may sound a little strange but presumably the publishers of Gerd Strenge's statements have verified that it is indeed him they are speaking to and not some malicious 3rd party with an axe to grind purporting to be him?:)

mattym0310
26-04-2007, 07:58 PM
one thing i would like to point out, which i have before is another thing that confuses things. on the website it previously stated that it was the same as a durango but on here in the first thread started about the car, team aero couldnt stress enough how it was not a durango "First of all it's not a dublicate! The concept idea is the same but the car will be in graphite with alu parts . Secondly we've made a lot of changes to the car, the steering is different, major changes to the geometrie (front and rear) etc..." can anyone explain/clear this up please

andys
26-04-2007, 08:35 PM
Well. I for one am looking forward to seeing how this pans out ! Controversey in the world of RC racing, amazing, this is toy cars after all !

Anyway, I was going to add my name to the Aero order list until I read all these posts.

I'm probably not going to have time to race a new for the next few years, but I always wanted a 'Durango', but WAIT, it's not a Durango it's an Aero, a sort of Durango with a bit less Durang.... So, I'm waiting.

If the Durango car has indeed being sold to another company (Not Aero), then i'll have one of those please, a proper one if you will, if not, I'll go with the copy, if you can't have the real thing then it sure looks like the Aero will do !

mattym0310
26-04-2007, 08:38 PM
so if you buy a durango/aero [what ever it turns out to be] what happens to your pred and S4? are they for keeps??

Dirt-Racer
27-04-2007, 01:32 AM
What id like to know is companies like HPI, Yokomo, Tamiya, Associated, Kyosho and many others im sure all had the same basic concept when they were all producing their shaft driven version TC cars, why was it no one got done for that?

Hows about when tamiya and HPI (others) were making the same layout similar to the Kyosho Lazer tranny?

I didnt hear anyone cry foulplay on both of those issues?

jimmy
27-04-2007, 07:07 AM
This 'case' is a lot more complex and in depth than those examples though.

Bathy
27-04-2007, 07:41 AM
I wasn’t going to post again on this subject but found it too difficult to hold back, sorry!

An example of a ‘case’ was given a few posts back, which I feel is completely irrelevant to the one we are talking about. The very first line explains why “Former Ferrari employees Mauro Iacconi and Angelo Santini” unless the team at Aero-Racing had previously worked for the ‘chap who’s upset’ and had signed contracts of employment, which I doubt, then this case is completely irrelevant for use as an example, the only reason them guys got ‘done’ would have been for breach of employment contract… trust me!

I still think my first post on this matter is the most relevant which was as follows:

Bit odd, no idea if any of this is correct but based on what’s been said (If I put my ‘business’ hat on for a second), unless Gerd has patents in place then there is little you can do, that’s the harsh reality of the world.

It’s very simple; you don’t have to be an expert, hell you only have to watch one episode of ‘Dragons Den’ would go like this…

Car creator: “Hi, I’ve designed the car, parts of if are unique and I think I can sell a load a make money. I'm looking for £100,000 investment”
Dragon: “It looks great, I’m interested, you’re looking for £100,000 yes?”
Car creator: “yup”
Dragon: “ok do have the unique parts patented?”

Scenario 1

Car creator: “yes I do”
Dragon: “great you’ve got yourself the investment, let’s do business”

Scenario 2
Car creator: “No I don’t, not yet anyway”
Dragon: “Oh, exactly what stops me from just making these myself??? I’m out”

Simple really, from a ‘business’ point of view, like I said it’s a harsh world out there.

jimmy
27-04-2007, 07:59 AM
Would you rather someone do the same as Jigsaw7 dave, or call themself Jigsaw7.:D

Bathy
27-04-2007, 08:07 AM
Would you rather someone do the same as Jigsaw7 dave, or call themself Jigsaw7.:D

That would be a 'trademark' issue... it's covered! ;)

Hey I'm not saying if it's a good or nice thing, just the facts of the world! Honest.

jimmy
27-04-2007, 08:11 AM
Which is it then, 'Tough' or 'Covered' - Can't have it both ways mate.


Forgive me ;)

BenG
27-04-2007, 08:13 AM
Car creator: “No I don’t, not yet anyway”
Dragon: “Oh, exactly what stops me from just making these myself??? I’m out”

.

They do tend to say that alot:D:D

Bathy
27-04-2007, 08:28 AM
Which is it then, 'Tough' or 'Covered' - Can't have it both ways mate.


Forgive me ;)

But... we've paid around £600 getting our 'trademark' patented, so if anyone tried using it we'd be in a position to take action. It's all about 'covering' yourself against such things.

jimmy
27-04-2007, 08:34 AM
Maybe the word 'irrelevent' needs to be in BOLD in your first post- since it appears you are drawing similarities when there are none.

I do hope that things get 'sorted' soon and we can all enjoy the end products.

capellone24
28-04-2007, 12:25 AM
wow this is like a soap opera..........anyway all is clear for me , i remember some time ago when i saw the tamiya TRF501X it looked to me similar to yokomo Bx.....now the concept of cyclone D4 is very close to Bj We ....touring car are very similar each others.....so i think that this aero A-one will do the same on durango.........it is not nice to see ,but in the races this is the normal way to improve the performances......find a nice base and make it better.......
if Aero has used the durango's layout without any agreement with Mr Strenge i think that they final product will be much more different than the actual prototype.........



sorry for my bad eng.

rich_cree
28-04-2007, 01:48 AM
I wasn’t going to post again on this subject but found it too difficult to hold back, sorry!

An example of a ‘case’ was given a few posts back, which I feel is completely irrelevant to the one we are talking about. The very first line explains why “Former Ferrari employees Mauro Iacconi and Angelo Santini” unless the team at Aero-Racing had previously worked for the ‘chap who’s upset’ and had signed contracts of employment, which I doubt, then this case is completely irrelevant for use as an example, the only reason them guys got ‘done’ would have been for breach of employment contract… trust me!

I still think my first post on this matter is the most relevant which was as follows:

Bit odd, no idea if any of this is correct but based on what’s been said (If I put my ‘business’ hat on for a second), unless Gerd has patents in place then there is little you can do, that’s the harsh reality of the world.

It’s very simple; you don’t have to be an expert, hell you only have to watch one episode of ‘Dragons Den’ would go like this…

Car creator: “Hi, I’ve designed the car, parts of if are unique and I think I can sell a load a make money. I'm looking for £100,000 investment”
Dragon: “It looks great, I’m interested, you’re looking for £100,000 yes?”
Car creator: “yup”
Dragon: “ok do have the unique parts patented?”

Scenario 1

Car creator: “yes I do”
Dragon: “great you’ve got yourself the investment, let’s do business”

Scenario 2
Car creator: “No I don’t, not yet anyway”
Dragon: “Oh, exactly what stops me from just making these myself??? I’m out”

Simple really, from a ‘business’ point of view, like I said it’s a harsh world out there.

If you want to get into it, they stole info they where privy to but didn't own, thats why they are going down. Remarkably similar to if you were given a car to run but didn't own it I would say.

Doomanic
28-04-2007, 09:00 AM
:) This may sound a little strange but presumably the publishers of Gerd Strenge's statements have verified that it is indeed him they are speaking to and not some malicious 3rd party with an axe to grind purporting to be him?:)

I'm glad I'm not the only one to wonder about that!:o

elvo
26-09-2007, 08:58 PM
http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/worldchampionships-2007/day4/bigimages/OOP_7998.jpg

lazerboy
26-09-2007, 10:05 PM
he looks like he's about to crack up laughing!:D
Maybe it's about the moulded chassis?:rolleyes:

jimmy
26-09-2007, 10:10 PM
now now boys! I saw a nice photo op and I took it!
The moulded chassis looks really nice and I've seen some other parts - AERO are being very secretive I guess because they want to surprise people with the end product, but from what I've seen it's a lot closer to being finished than it might seem

Chris Doughty
27-09-2007, 06:48 AM
even more bizzare is the T shirt he is wearing?

DCM
27-09-2007, 07:12 AM
so is that a Serpent, Durango or Aero chassis the Gerdmeister is fondling?

bender
27-09-2007, 07:57 AM
so is that a Serpent, Durango or Aero chassis the Gerdmeister is fondling?

Exactly what I was wondering :confused:

Lee Martin
27-09-2007, 08:05 AM
read the worlds report!

lol

Chris Doughty
27-09-2007, 08:05 AM
fairly sure its the Aero one. you can see Boulter in the foreground so I guess he is at Lee Martins pit table.

Atomic
27-09-2007, 02:36 PM
http://bp2.blogger.com/_uwoVC10q7eM/RucyYgHPseI/AAAAAAAAAT8/zD56rm0ZmwI/s1600/IMG_3881blog

Atomic
27-09-2007, 02:37 PM
http://bp2.blogger.com/_uwoVC10q7eM/RucyYgHPseI/AAAAAAAAAT8/zD56rm0ZmwI/s1600/IMG_3881blog.JPG

Atomic
27-09-2007, 02:39 PM
http://bp2.blogger.com/_uwoVC10q7eM/RucyYgHPsfI/AAAAAAAAAUE/xEbNDJbunwM/s1600/IMG_3878blog.JPG

jimmy
27-09-2007, 02:41 PM
Keep going Atomic! you'll get there in the end! :)

_sleigh_
27-09-2007, 02:42 PM
big red X's

losixxx
27-09-2007, 02:45 PM
who you blowing kisses to phil
:D

lazerboy
27-09-2007, 07:28 PM
It might be the work of ASSOCIATED. I actually think that it's a great chassis, i'd just rather have cnc'd aluminum, and for $500 it better be gold plated titanium.

bigred5765
27-09-2007, 09:30 PM
crazyboy strikes again as jimmy said read the worlds report
o buy the way it is aero chassis

jimmy
27-09-2007, 09:34 PM
aaaaaand Carl is correct! Hence the reason the photo was put in this thread and is on the Worlds report also! :)

I spoke to AERO today and they plan to release some more photos in the coming days - just teaser shots.

bigred5765
27-09-2007, 09:38 PM
i thank you,lol
da daaaaa

lazerboy
27-09-2007, 11:42 PM
MAN!!!!!!!








Do you guys EVER!!! use sarcasm? I was KIDDING!!! of cource i read the worlds report. It's the only thing that was working on this site!:D I said it might be ASSOCIATED because of his T-Shirt. Ironic that he is wearing that.

super__dan
28-09-2007, 05:29 AM
Ironic that he is wearing that.

Only in the same way Alanis Morissette would say it was.

Chrislong
28-09-2007, 07:17 AM
Only in the same way Alanis Morissette would say it was.

Good song too, but the only thing Ironic about it was that it wasn't.

Chris Doughty
28-09-2007, 07:21 AM
Only in the same way Alanis Morissette would say it was.

I remember someone picked through every line of that song and pretty much none of it was ironic. made me laugh

super__dan
28-09-2007, 10:39 AM
I remember someone picked through every line of that song and pretty much none of it was ironic. made me laugh

She claims she wrote it in an hour and blah blah blah, good pop song, none of it actually ironic though. Rain on your wedding day, unfortunate but hardly ironic!

Nick Goodall
28-09-2007, 10:46 AM
Being run over by an Ambulance - now that's ironic.... probably wouldn't have worked in the song though :D

Swiss
28-09-2007, 02:24 PM
I remember someone picked through every line of that song and pretty much none of it was ironic. made me laugh


Wasn't that the master himself Mr Lee Evans? I rememeber someone taking the song apart, and seeing that I really only watch Lee Evans... 2 and 2 in this case hopefuly makes 4?

P_B
28-09-2007, 05:02 PM
Do you guys EVER!!! use sarcasm?

Yes, but we also try to ensure it's funny too. Thanks for asking.

Chrislong
28-09-2007, 06:31 PM
Yes, but we also try to ensure it's funny too. Thanks for asking.

:D :D

big_boss
08-10-2007, 05:40 PM
Com'on Belgan boys, where's my car at?
Or how about an update...

Chris Elworthy
18-10-2007, 06:47 PM
Just to tye this one up it was irish comic Ed Byrne who did the Alanis Morrisette thing
Sorry for being the smartarse!

Scouser
19-10-2007, 03:34 PM
Did anyone see the Ozzy Osborne version of the video? Now THAT was funny!!

big_boss
21-10-2007, 11:23 AM
Please, Pretty please with sugar on top...:p

Welshy40
21-10-2007, 01:04 PM
But you really didn't answer anything with your statement. More than anything else, a lot of hot air, really.

You're using the Durango name as well as Gerd Strenge's name as a means to promote your car. He is very adamantly saying that he has nothing to do with your company and is concerned that your car is almost identical to his design.



So you claim that you have bought the rights to the Durango. Is that true or not? Have you purchased the rights from the owner of them?


I say leave it well alone, as its stuff thats been posted by someoen else and may not be true. Just like the newspapers, its all blown out of proportion. Its obvious that this car wasn a copy, and if you look at Associated, and Kyosho and pretty much all of the 4wd market the cars all have similarities. Dont jump to conclusions until all the facts are on the table, which as it appears they are not. Leave it to the relevant companies to deal with if it is an issue (which I doubt somehow)

Northy
21-10-2007, 02:12 PM
There are a few similarities to the ZXR though........ :o

big_boss
22-10-2007, 06:09 PM
These guys have been so quiet for so long, I was thinking : OK there busy finalizing the kit's smaller details & they will let us all know how things are coming along, but this is ridiculous, nothing for six months ... com'on.
If they don't hurry up the Serpent will be out soon...

elvo
22-10-2007, 07:48 PM
These guys have been so quiet for so long, I was thinking : OK there busy finalizing the kit's smaller details & they will let us all know how things are coming along, but this is ridiculous, nothing for six months ... com'on.
If they don't hurry up the Serpent will be out soon...


From their website:

news

First official pictures
We are pleased to inform you that the release date of the car is coming closer. Because we get a lot of e-mails asking for some pictures you can find some at the bottom of this page. We can inform you that at this moment we are finalizing and testing the shocks. Mails have already been sent to the people on the pre-order list, we’ll keep them informed about our release date. There will be more pictures online in the next few days!

If you have any questions please don’t hesitate to contact us at info@aeroracing.eu (info@aeroracing.eu)
Aero racing

big_boss
22-10-2007, 08:22 PM
OK so the email came a month ago, I'll correct my statement to five months without a word....no big deal, still the email tells you precisely nothing at all, except to expect an unspecified length of time of ....wait for it........ sitting on your hands. great??!!:wtf:

PaulRotheram
22-10-2007, 08:24 PM
At least it's something to let everyone know they're stil lworking on the car.. if you think it'l be worth it then wait it out. It's not exactly the end of the world if it isnt released tommorrow - I'd rarther the car was released right than us finding flaws and waiting longer for a correct fix.

DCM
22-10-2007, 09:05 PM
being involved in the development of the some products, it can be truly frustrating a time trying to get to a point of a production unit, and can easily lead to premature ejaculation of hype about the product.

If you are really interested, sit and wait.

Chrislong
22-10-2007, 09:24 PM
Yeh, don't make this company feel compelled to rush it out. Honestly guys, the best thing to do is let them do their stuff, they know what they're doing, and then when it hits the shelves it'll be right first time..... its not asif the new Summer season is close, we've just started Winter. LOL. (so i guess we're all getting bored already - so go buy an Xbox360, ha ha)

Hairy Spider
23-11-2007, 09:13 AM
Aero website has been updated...

http://www.aeroracing.eu/

barrypops
08-10-2008, 05:12 PM
Aero website has been updated...

http://www.aeroracing.eu/

Does anyone got this kit already ?:eh?:

Southwell
08-10-2008, 05:18 PM
Does anyone got this kit already ?:eh?:

your about a year behind lol

Answer-RC-Pete
08-10-2008, 06:38 PM
Blimey - Id forgot about all this guff! Good reading..

Col
24-02-2009, 06:44 AM
The above link says "please ban me..."

3975dave
24-02-2009, 05:44 PM
The above link says "please ban me..."

:confused:

jimmy
24-02-2009, 05:51 PM
I should have deleted Col's post also as he looks like a nutter now! :woot: There was some spammer in here who's post / life got deleted.

3975dave
24-02-2009, 05:59 PM
Did seem a bit wierd lol:D

Col
25-02-2009, 06:36 AM
I should have deleted Col's post also as he looks like a nutter now! :woot:

Jimmy, that implies that I'm not a nutter, and I take exception the that. I clearly am nuts:cry: