A rant

[super__dan]

Something that's been bugging me a while and everyone I talked to on the weekend about this, Jimmy please don't take any offence to this!

There are some people on here who worry me and I worry about the advice they give. Essentially they come across like they are experts and know what they are talking about but in reality have little or no idea (I believe), no real racing experience, no results, they can however write a post that to a similair novice might think is really excellent advice. It dilutes what is a fantastic website for what we all love and one that has huge credability.

I've edited this rant down from it's full effect but really, if you don't actually know what your talking about please don't sound like you do. Every man and his dog seems to think they know about other drivers sponsorships, but proclaiming what it is or how that driver should behave is such crap.

I realise this has gone a bit random, I'll stop now!

[matdodd]

You Random mate never :)

I do agree with you on some of that though!

[David Church]

You tell em Dan!!!!

Alot of fun can be had reading what people think, they dont have to reply just to boost there post total.
Look at me, I dont give any advice??? Wonder why?? haha

[tc2k]

I dont give advice, if you see my drive, you know why. I am more interested in asking questions than answering but in some cases everyone can offer advice no matter how experienced they are.

[jimmy]

I agree dan, but also thats the price of this forum getting more popular and I can't really stop madness like that. What we can do is explain and educate (!) seriously, thats the only way - and if they don't listen, then beat them with sticks!

I have seen posts on other forums which were just plain stupid - like one on another popular UK forum (not a race specific one) talking about the benefits of upside down shocks. Utterly ignoring and common sense or laws of physics. :D

[Northy]

Guess your talking about me eh? :D :D :D :D :D

I am the meat.

G

[Northy]

I have seen posts on other forums which were just plain stupid - like one on another popular UK forum (not a race specific one) talking about the benefits of upside down shocks. Utterly ignoring and common sense or laws of physics. :D

Like on the Pred Jimmy? ;) :D

Actually we do run our shocks upside down, the real ones on my kit car are the other way up, thats how I was told to fit them.

G

[xx4-nutter]

everyone can offer advice no matter how experienced they are.


i totally agree with you mate :) . me myslef aint the best at running the right sort of set-up if that counts towards my lack of "knowlage" ill run alsorts of random set ups. oddly enough somthings work for me..

it may also work for other people, but yet anouther thing some of the people who have been racing for years may think, WHAT THE HELL ?:confused: ..

also regarding "noobs to the sport" are we only the question askers ? not the answerers. im not having a dig at you dan i still think some people may sit and think right this and this will work thinking in a proper and well thought out way who are new to the sport.. ive been racing myself 3-4 years i think now and im only just starting to get into it properly regarding racing regionals and such and racing at a higher level. Durham outdoor regional just gone was my first out door regional. the first time i ever raced outdoor was at castle howard i dunno if you remeber dan ? i came and spoke to you.

again dan im not having a go dude ;)

Garry D.

[PaulRotheram]

Agreed on what has been said.. new drivers need 100% reassurance on what the guidance they receive is true and solid. I'll admit, i don't know an awful lot compared to what some on here do know.. but anything i'm sure on i'll have a say about.

But as Jimmy said.. nothing can really be done, unless they can be educated to the correct way. No one on oople can really edit posts if they are wrong, its a persons opinion and they are obliged to it.. but if they can be taught, and corrected then this is the best way.. as more people can learn from the experience !

[mattym0310]

so what your saying is.. people with no racing history have no knowledge? well. think about it. some people yes do say stupid things and dont have a clue, but others dont necessarily have good racing history but could know their stuff. and maybe know the concept of it, just not the racing. for example, say an F1 drivers pit man/crew wotever is c**p at racing, it doesnt mean he doesnt know what hes talking about.

i do generally stick to asking rather than answering but if there is a question that i can answer i answer it. i dont see how, just cos you can drive a car well it means you can answer questions and others carnt? [apart from those idiots that have no clue wot so ever!]

[jimmy]

Like on the Pred Jimmy? ;) :D

Actually we do run our shocks upside down, the real ones on my kit car are the other way up, thats how I was told to fit them.

G


haha,
sorry I should have said - they justified their enthusiastic stupidness by saying that performance motorbikes use upside down shocks because they work better........ Utterly missing the fact that they are upside down from what they used to be, and are now the correct way up with the piston moving, not the body.
And preds are just like any other buggy, not upside down at all.:D

[xx4-nutter]

for example, say an F1 drivers pit man/crew wotever is c**p at racing, it doesnt mean he doesnt know what hes talking about....]


i agree here im not having a go at Mike Riley i think the guy is spot on and really knows his stuff but not being harsh or anything i think he isnt the best of drivers under a saturn 20 turn, but hell he knows how to set a car up :D

Garry D.

[Northy]

i agree here im not having a go at Mike Riley i think the guy is spot on and really knows his stuff but not being harsh or anything i think he isnt the best of drivers under a saturn 20 turn, but hell he knows how to set a car up :D

Garry D.

Now that is one of the funniest things I have read on here for a loooooonnngggg time! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

G

[Bathy]

I think if you're going to rant then name names, would make this thread a real proper-job rant!!!

oOple's kicking off at the mo, tis ace... almost as fun as racing 'big kid cars'. :D

[xx4-nutter]

Now that is one of the funniest things I have read on here for a loooooonnngggg time! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

G


mikes cool, he broke our pit table tightnin up a pred motor clamp, cells allen drivers handsets everywhere... and some slow mo catch of a Vantage type R ................. magic.. :o

Garry D.

[Northy]

haha,
sorry I should have said - they justified their enthusiastic stupidness by saying that performance motorbikes use upside down shocks because they work better........ Utterly missing the fact that they are upside down from what they used to be, and are now the correct way up with the piston moving, not the body.
And preds are just like any other buggy, not upside down at all.:D

I don't understand Jimmy. On my kit car the body is conncted to the wishbone, and the piston shaft the chassis, so that would be upside down compared to our toys? :confused: :confused:

G

[Northy]

mikes cool, he broke our pit table tightnin up a pred motor clamp, cells allen drivers handsets everywhere... and some slow mo catch of a Vantage type R ................. magic.. :o

Garry D.

Hey, I'm not saying Mike's not a nice guy, I would regard both him and Ben as friends, I even shared a house with Ben ffs, that was an experience! :eh?: :eh?:

G

[xx4-nutter]

hehe i wernet saying you was dissing him, they are both sound lol...
you say you lived with ben, learn sumin new every day :)


back to dans point i think, its turning into a Riley thing lol.

Garry D.

[jimmy]

I don't understand Jimmy. On my kit car the body is conncted to the wishbone, and the piston shaft the chassis, so that would be upside down compared to our toys? :confused: :confused:

G

Is it northy! no idea why that is, but a full size car is different - especially a road car I'd say. I don't think you'd see too many off road cars / buggies (full size) using upside down shocks (with the body on the wishbone)

[BenG]

I agree, no big heads and know it alls please, and if you were talking about me, sorry :(

[Stu]

I am the meat.

G

I'm sorry G, you are wholly incorrect.

I am the meat.

[ashleyb4]

I hope you aint trying to suggest me cus i do know alot and i dont say stuff i aint 100% sure on.

A

[Northy]

Is it northy! no idea why that is, but a full size car is different - especially a road car I'd say. I don't think you'd see too many off road cars / buggies (full size) using upside down shocks (with the body on the wishbone)

I'd just like to point out to you Jimmy that I think you are wholly incorrect here, I have seen many of said vehicles with the shocks on "arse about tit"! :D :D :D

G

[Mrs oOple]

so what you're saying is.. people with no racing history have no knowledge?

I don't think Dan quite meant it like that? Some people could have 10 years of racing history and still not understand how their car works, especially if someone else sets it up for them all the time. I think Dan was referring more generally to some of the advice offered by people who maybe don't fully understand what they are talking about.
Perhaps a lot of the information presented on here is opinion based, everyone does things a little differently, that doesn't necesserily mean there is a right or wrong way of doing things.
I for example would say it's perfectly alright to charge my one pack of cells immediately after finishing my race, therefore I know it's ready for the next run, many racers would probably be shocked at this suggestion (for whatever reason).
Obviously if someone came and gave advice saying totally and utterly the wrong thing, something potentially dangerous or costly, then there are plenty of experienced and knowledgeable people on here who can set them right.
But indeed the best thing to do is to support and advise those people who don't quite fully understand what they are talking about (like me! I'm going to shut up now and stop pretending to know what I'm on about).

[Mrs oOple]

I hope you aint trying to suggest me cus i do know alot and i dont say stuff i aint 100% sure on.

A

No need to be all defensive Ash :P No-one mentioned any names, there could be one person or 100 people on here that give incorrect advice, I don't think anyone is pointing the finger, merely trying to suggest a way of not advertising incorrect information. :p

[xx4-nutter]

I don't think Dan quite meant it like that? Some people could have 10 years of racing history and still not understand how their car works, especially if someone else sets it up for them all the time. I think Dan was referring more generally to some of the advice offered by people who maybe don't fully understand what they are talking about.
Perhaps a lot of the information presented on here is opinion based, everyone does things a little differently, that doesn't necesserily mean there is a right or wrong way of doing things.
I for example would say it's perfectly alright to charge my one pack of cells immediately after finishing my race, therefore I know it's ready for the next run, many racers would probably be shocked at this suggestion (for whatever reason).
Obviously if someone came and gave advice saying totally and utterly the wrong thing, something potentially dangerous or costly, then there are plenty of experienced and knowledgeable people on here who can set them right.
But indeed the best thing to do is to support and advise those people who don't quite fully understand what they are talking about (like me! I'm going to shut up now and stop pretending to know what I'm on about).


Mrs oOples like a mum who has come into a room to stop an argument and has hopfully solved it :) . Here! Here! for the lady :D

Garry D.

[ashleyb4]

Yea i find there are two people on this forum who will smooth stuff out really well. Vicky and Chris Long.

A

[BenG]

Yea i find there are two people on this forum who will smooth stuff out really well. Vicky and Chris Long.

A

Also Jimmy, seen as he can ban us all :p

[jimmy]

I'd just like to point out to you Jimmy that I think you are wholly incorrect here, I have seen many of said vehicles with the shocks on "arse about tit"! :D :D :D

G

Stick em upside down on your pred then, clever boy! :D

[ashleyb4]

Banning people isnt always the best option when coming to troublesome people. I cant remember anyone being banned off oople except the russians. Jimmy and vicky well everyone talk to that person and they sort the problem out. Thats what Chris doughty did with me on doughtyuk.net.

A

[Northy]

Stick em upside down on your pred then, clever boy! :D

I actually did on the P8 and it was better ;) ;) :o :o Seriously.

G

[andy reeves]

Is it northy! no idea why that is, but a full size car is different - especially a road car I'd say. I don't think you'd see too many off road cars / buggies (full size) using upside down shocks (with the body on the wishbone)
i'm pritty sure that the sports 2000 race car that i work on has the shocks this way round. I will check the next time i am working on the car.

[super__dan]

Some good replies here, some of which have made me realise I didn't phrase my post so well and so fair do's on the replies. Of course the voice of reason has been a woman. Vicky, you seem to have got exactly what I meant.

If I try to explain, I did not mean people of varying age, history, experience etc are not entitled to an opinion. But often replies come across as factual answers rather than opinions and when I believe these are wrong I fear the person asking the question could have had a potentially expensive bum steer. Also with the amount of people reading this website, so many people can get the wrong impression.

E.G. The whole Aero thing, some of the posts to Lee have been way off in my opinion, I almost think he's having to defend his own reputation now which is totally unfair.

Lastly, I thought I was the meat???

[BenG]

E.G. I almost think he's having to defend his own reputation now which is totally unfair.

Lastly, I thought I was the meat???

I think lee is in an awkward posisiton, and it isnt his fault at all ;)

I dont get the meat thing, you guys are toooooooooooo deep :o

[PaulRotheram]

Lastly, I thought I was the meat???

There are multiple meats, with varying characteristics.

mahahaha

[jimmy]

I will eat my own hat if someone can prove a performance reason that shocks would be 'upside down' , at least in off road.

The only reason I can read is one of shock absorber design which requires the shocks remain right way up / upside down, which ever way you want to look at it - but with the piston at the top.
Any time you read about upside down (same way we ALL use them) it is about performance, not restrictions.:)

Anyone got any salt then? my hat looks a bit flavourless! :D

[mattym0310]

im confused about all this meat and upside down forks. mind you i do get confused quite easily sometimes :D.
i just realised, if i know what your talking about, mountain bike forks are upside down compared to our buggy shocks.

so anyone want to explain the whole meat business?:confused:

[PaulRotheram]

the only reason you can read is because of upside down shocks?

oh my gawd.

[mattym0310]

gawd i really am confused

[ashleyb4]

The other thing i hate is when people like myself give people advice then they just ignore you then someone else (generally a more exsperianced racer) says the exsact same thing. I know people may want a second or third opinion but they never say thanks to the small fries.

A

[Northy]

Jim (Dixon) says:

A Mc phearson strut is the same way up as our toy cars.

On a WRC they are also the the same way as our toy cars because the remote reservoir can be mounted at the body/chassis end.

But he does say some damper designs should be run the other way up, dependant on the damping type and dependant on where the valving is located.

So some run one way, and some the other. :D :D

G

[DCM]

im confused about all this meat and upside down forks. mind you i do get confused quite easily sometimes :D.
i just realised, if i know what your talking about, mountain bike forks are upside down compared to our buggy shocks.

so anyone want to explain the whole meat business?:confused:

original the stanchions were in the tree's, as it was easier to make fork tree's to carry the stanchions. Then someone realised, that if they turned the forks the other way up, the front end remained more rigid, and called them upside-down forks, it gave the front end tighter handling due to less flex.

[super__dan]

Regarding the meat, if it feels good, do it! ;)

[bigred5765]

I'm not sure, but don't oil filled shocks have to be the way up we use em, because of the air inside them, it would be in the piston part of the shock if run upside down.

[Lee Martin]

cheers dan,

yeh my situation is strange at the moment....

people can say as they wish. it only really matters on the track....lol

but yeh some people need to chill out. on one of my real car forums a few years someone scratch their car, when asking how to mend this problem some complete tool said that they should use W40 sand paper...to which the idiot did and it left a nasty mess....

now this was an extreme measure, but it comes to show that stupid advice can often be taken and become regretable.......

keep that in mind when saying something stupid or something you dont fully understand.

i do not know everything and the only 2 people i would really trust with setups on this forum are rich barton and rich cree.

lee

[shinytopman]

I dont get the meat thing, you guys are toooooooooooo deep :o

Can i be the MEAT !........Hubba..Hubba!!!!! ;) ;) :p :p

[ashleyb4]

I think everyone has a few select people they trust. I trust Phil Sleigh, Phil Channon and Stu evans. There people you can rely that what they tell you is good advice.

A

[b4rs]

you know its serious when jimmy intervenes! :D and whatever has been said it werent me .......:o lol

[b4rs]

its better to aks questions, i am one for that, but if you dont ask you dont get to know, u gotto ask someone you trust. but then agian theres the point at which your answerer gets pissed off with you for asking os many q's lol, thts generally my case.

[MK999]

Strange someone should mention upside down shocks, as I actually came across this today doing some background reading, and in the damper section it mentioned them as being fitted 'upside down' compared to R/C stuff, took me 2-3 times reading it to realise I was reading it correctly after all :D as for performance reasons, I'm not entirely sure, it could be that it's easier to direct airflow onto them for heat dissipation when they're 'upside down' in saloon and open wheel cars, but that's the only reason I can think of :confused:

edit: as to what northy said, i think that's a design point for the progressive damping, as in if you had the exact same damper, reversed the valving on it, and put it on the other way up it would work in the same way... but not sure on that, that's just how i understand what i've read :p

[shinytopman]

I'm not sure, but don't oil filled shocks have to be the way up we use em, because of the air inside them, it would be in the piston part of the shock if run upside down.

Correct me if im wrong.......(:) I've asked for it there !)

But in a perfect world there should be no air in the oil section of the shock and there for would make no difference what so ever to the performance, as you are solely relying on the resistance caused by the oil flowing throw a restrictor i.e. the piston.
If you have a bladder in the shock which uses the trapped air as an overall buffer (as the sealed in air will compress but not escape) all that means is, it will be more progressive towards the end of the shock travel as it will get stiffer as the air is compressed !

This is how i see shocks working. Remember the primary function of a shock is the reduce the bounce of the spring!

So to me the shock will work either way up, just doesnt look conventional thats all

Im no vastly experienced racer but i am an engineer and deal with a lot of hydraulics in my work.

Now can i be the meat......;)

Laid myself wide open here and ive got broad shoulders and an open mind, so feel free to correct me. Its never to late to teach an old dog new tricks.

[jimmy]

It matters which way it is up because of the unspring weight.

wikipedia refering to bike forks :
"Upside-down" (USD) forks are installed inverted compared to typical forks, with the tubes at the bottom and the bodies at the top. This decreases the unsprung weight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_weight) of the motorcycle and improves its handling. USD forks are usually found on sportbikes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_motorcycle#sportbike), though Honda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda)'s large power-cruiser, the Valkyrie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Valkyrie), sported USD forks.


like I said tho, any shocks mounted the other way seems to be because of access, design or other matters, airflow, but not all out shock absorbing performance... Should I put the oven on? ;)

[rich_cree]

If you ran our shocks upside down you would have air not oil next to the seals, this means there would be no pressure on the seals and they would take in air when extending and piss oil out when compressing so they woldn't stay fresh as long

[Jimbo]

Interesting discussion.

Unsprung weight meaning the weight of the suspension arm, wheels etc from the hingepin and top of the shock spring outwards eh? I get confused a bit with that.:eh?:

But I did wonder about the advantages of lower CG, as the shocks are mounted quite high up, and reasonably heavy (considering the weight of the car). Could be interesting to test anyway (Clearance around the shock body cap if mounted upside down the trickiest part methinks.)

[terry.sc]

I will eat my own hat if someone can prove a performance reason that shocks would be 'upside down' , at least in off road.
In the early days we ran the shocks upside down so our Scorcher or Scorpion shocks still had oil in them at the end of the race. Those single O ring seals never worked even when new:D

[shinytopman]

It matters which way it is up because of the unspring weight.

wikipedia refering to bike forks :
"Upside-down" (USD) forks are installed inverted compared to typical forks, with the tubes at the bottom and the bodies at the top. This decreases the unsprung weight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_weight) of the motorcycle and improves its handling. USD forks are usually found on sportbikes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_motorcycle#sportbike), though Honda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda)'s large power-cruiser, the Valkyrie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Valkyrie), sported USD forks.


like I said tho, any shocks mounted the other way seems to be because of access, design or other matters, airflow, but not all out shock absorbing performance... Should I put the oven on? ;)


Doh!

Unspung weight, yes i'll give you that. That will teach me to have a few to many glasses of wine before opening my mouth/keyboard.....:)

[shinytopman]

If you ran our shocks upside down you would have air not oil next to the seals, this means there would be no pressure on the seals and they would take in air when extending and piss oil out when compressing so they woldn't stay fresh as long

But in practice you should have no air in the shock chamber mixed with the oil so there for the pressure would be on the seal.

granted if you had air in the shock then it would create a vac behind the seal as the shock extends poss alowing air in.

[Lee Martin]

so a rant thread has quickly turned into shock thread........

[telboy]

Originally Posted by Northy http://www.oople.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?p=35663#post35663)

I am the meat.

G
I'm sorry G, you are wholly incorrect.

I am the meat.

Someone listened to radio one the other morning!

How funny was that!?:D

[jimmy]

Meat!? mad

[Spencer Mulcahy]

Who wants to be the two veg. Back on post I think people on here know who to take advise from, and the people that do give duff advice just want to be involved with the discusions and most the time they will be corrected and they will learn and be able to give the correct advice next time. Its not just on forums that you can get duff info you can at the track as well. I have been racing on and off fore twenty years now and I still take advice from people as I cant get my head round setups so you just have to learn who to take advice from.:)

[MK999]

I was gonna say it might have something to do with the unsprung weight but i still need to read that section 28 times so i understand which bits sprung and which bit isn't ! :D

[shinytopman]

Hi Tis only me (again i hear u say !)

Im back and clear of alcohol this time. Just read back through this post and i was explaining about a shock.
It will perform perfectly well as a shock at any angle (as a shock!) it may not improve the handling caracteristics of the car (as jimmy quite rightly corrected me about unsprung weight. But hey i'd had a few and it was late...... Good on ya jimmy...;) ) but i didnt say it would just said the shock will work, which it will perfectly well at any angle.

P.S. Jimmy i prefer the frying pan, as i luv jumping out into the fire and back......:p

[PaulRotheram]

Someone listened to radio one the other morning!

How funny was that!?:D

I heard it on the way to work.. twas funneh as fewk.

[Stu]

I think everyone has a few select people they trust. I trust Phil Sleigh, Phil Channon and Stu evans. There people you can rely that what they tell you is good advice.

A

That is a nice thing to say Ash - thanks.
I have to add that my advice to Ash has been very simple - run a steady motor and make the car easy to drive. I do know how to do that, but I know little about how to make a car ultimately fast.