New form of racing

[mw02veg]

plz take a look and give your opinion. This debate has come up due to one of the tracks in our region race this style at their club events.


http://www.lapsracing.co.uk/

[Barry Williams]

This seems very much like the Reedy Race system that used to be used for one off big events. i remember going to Aire valley to watch one where every race position counted towards your end qualifying position. I think they are a good idea but doubt they would catch on as the way we race now at Nationals & Regionals is second to none.
Would be good for a one off event though (but dont know where it would fit in during the busy summer months)

Barry

[bigred5765]

thanks but no thanks, its bias towards lucky runs, cant see it taking off at all, if something anit broke dont try to fix it,

[MK999]

Yourself is probably both the best matched and most exciting, for close racing, opponent you'll ever get, improving your own lap times I always found one of the best things about racing. :)

[TRF_Tastic]

As I have voiced on other forums, I do not like this format. The format that we have is as Barry says works very well and is without equal.

I cannot see this format working for large meetings. And also in this format your track time is cut as it is typical to race 6 3 min races and not 6 5 min races.

[Rob Fitzgerald]

Leigh

I don't think this type of racing was ever intended for very large meetings.

Also where do you get 6 x 5 minutes races in offroad ?

[bigred5765]

but rob look at this scenario
Matty my son has 5 lucky races and wins em all and ends up with the likes of Neil cragg bradders etc top f1 drivers, he will get lapped and bounced all over and ruin his day, instead of racing against drivers of his own skill level which the traditional system does this way of racing promotes lucky wins, and false results, sorry i cant see it ever being popular

[PaulRotheram]

nice site.. but i dont suppose you asked jimmy for use of his pictures, and you've not credited him either.. and you posted the site on his forum.. hmmm..

[TRF_Tastic]

Typicaly Coastal is 6 x 5 min races and before you say "but they race to the same format" they dont. It is run to the Reedy format which is different, it just happens to be over 10 laps or 5 mins which ever happens sooner.

Even regionals are 5 x 5 mins, still more track time, than the laps format.

[bigred5765]

Leigh

I don't think this type of racing was ever intended for very large meetings.

Also where do you get 6 x 5 minutes races in offroad ?

hmm
2 rounds of practise 4 qualifing and a final thats 7 5min runs
2 practise 4 qualifing runs a 3 amains thats 9 5min runs
every week
every meeting

[mikey1988]

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the current format.
Why change something that has work so well previously!!!!!

[Rob Fitzgerald]

nice site.. but i dont suppose you asked jimmy for use of his pictures, and you've not credited him either.. and you posted the site on his forum.. hmmm..

Actually I did ask Jimmy for his permission - I would never be so rude as not to ask :o

Thanks for the attack though - needed that

AND it wasn't me who posted the link either - it was posted unknown to me.

[PaulRotheram]

for that particular site..... i'm aware of the other site.
did you see me mention your name.. anywhere?

[Rob Fitzgerald]

I would hope that Jimmy will talk to me about it if he feels I have acted incorrectly.

[DCM]

I think a club got to run what it's members want. My local club, on a club day, you race, thats it, you race your heat. Champs days, it is strict format of qualifying and finals.

[jcb]

Having raced both formats I can see the advantages and disadvantages of both types of racing / qualifying. Laps racing does work well at club level and is easy to follow for spectators too. Though mixing the abilities up in the heats is not my idea of fun :o

Personally I think the best compromise is what is run by a Kellers Model Car Club in Norwich. Everyone is in graded heats as per the current 5 minute system, and they still race over 5 minutes. The difference is that each qualifying run is done on a staggered grid, with everyone going on the tone. In the first round car 1 starts on pole, car 2 second and so on. For the following rounds the grid is based on where you finished in the previous race / qualifying heat. This saves the bundle start into the first bend, but I can see that this would cause problems with mixing the heats up as there would be no easy way to decide who starts on pole.
The finals are then worked out in the same way as the current 5 minute system. The advantage of this system is that the newcomers can have a proper race everytime they hit the track, while the better guys / gals can either have a race or treat it more as a normal qualifying run and wait for the finals to have there on track battle.

The arguement from how I see it is more based on whether the heats should be mixed up and qualifying scrapped :confused:

In my view it doesn't matter whether you race over laps or a set time as the person that completes it first will still win :p

[TRF_Tastic]

Jon the problem comes when I get 5 relatively easy draws and you get 5 harder draws or have some bad luck, that magic run that you do will count for nothing (would on the old system of FTQ put you on pole for the A final) as I will have had 5 better runs than you, thus beating you on the points system, great for me, "look I beat an F1", not so great for you "how the hell did he beat me!!"

The current system is fair and lets you race the guys that you are closest too, this lap system is pants. If I was you I wouldnt like my runs spoiled by begineers or lower paced drivers who have tunnel vision and crash into you when you try and pass or hold you up!!!

[bigred5765]

great post totally agree
i think i would rather my son race against people of his own ability's,and be able to judge his racing on them and his true position,not some luck of the draw,number generator

[LBC]

Hi all.

I've never suggested we should throw out the existing 5 minute format, only that there is an alternative.
If any club wishes to adopt this system then there is no reason why they shouldn't run to 5 minutes a race, as indeed they do at Coastal.
There is no hard and fast rule to say it has to be 6 laps (3 and a half mins.approx). It would be for each club to decide how they want to do it.
All the arguments regarding, cooking cells, not having enough time, etc., as has been put forward elsewhere, is irrelevant- it works, otherwise we wouldn't be doing it!
From having read the responses so far, it seems most are in favour of knowing the outcome before the meeting starts!

[LBC]

but rob look at this scenario
Matty my son has 5 lucky races and wins em all and ends up with the likes of Neil cragg bradders etc top f1 drivers, he will get lapped and bounced all over and ruin his day, instead of racing against drivers of his own skill level which the traditional system does this way of racing promotes lucky wins, and false results, sorry i cant see it ever being popular
Hi Barry.
If your son Matty wins all his heats I don't think you could call that luck!

As Jonathan has rightly said, no matter what format you race to, by and large, the best will prevail.
I do, however, believe that the Laps system gives a better chance to the less abled driver; and, as I've said elsewhere, predictability breeds boredom and drivers become disheartened and pack-up!

[LBC]

Sorry, prevoious post was for Bigred, not Barry!

Have tried to edit it, but to no avail!

[BenG]

Thats how the clubs I go to are raced, and works perfect.

Well, sometimes you may get placed in the wrong heat, and end up been taken out by noobs, but its a fair system.

Having raced both formats I can see the advantages and disadvantages of both types of racing / qualifying. Laps racing does work well at club level and is easy to follow for spectators too. Though mixing the abilities up in the heats is not my idea of fun :o

Personally I think the best compromise is what is run by a Kellers Model Car Club in Norwich. Everyone is in graded heats as per the current 5 minute system, and they still race over 5 minutes. The difference is that each qualifying run is done on a staggered grid, with everyone going on the tone. In the first round car 1 starts on pole, car 2 second and so on. For the following rounds the grid is based on where you finished in the previous race / qualifying heat. This saves the bundle start into the first bend, but I can see that this would cause problems with mixing the heats up as there would be no easy way to decide who starts on pole.
The finals are then worked out in the same way as the current 5 minute system. The advantage of this system is that the newcomers can have a proper race everytime they hit the track, while the better guys / gals can either have a race or treat it more as a normal qualifying run and wait for the finals to have there on track battle.

The arguement from how I see it is more based on whether the heats should be mixed up and qualifying scrapped :confused:

In my view it doesn't matter whether you race over laps or a set time as the person that completes it first will still win :p

[jcb]

From my experiance of the lap system with mixed abilities it favours the better drivers. Simply because the better driver will always have more chance of winning the heat than a newcomer. And the more you win the higher up you finish. It also means that a newcomer will be in a heat with at least one good driver for say 90% of their races, which gives them a seriously reduced chance of ever winning one of the races. At least with the grading system they have a better chance in every run to win their qualifying heat.

At times we all like to race against the top guys, if only to show that we aren't as good as we thought we were.

However going back on the point I just stated, the first time I did lap racing I had a none finish, and then won all my remaining races. Because the Laps system I was racing to meant all your qualifying heats counted I ended up 4th or 5th on the A final grid. With the current round by round format or simply being able to drop one or two bad runs I would more likely have qualified pole for that meeting. Therefore this format does help to give a lessor ability driver more chance of finishing higher up, assuming of course that they can finish every single race. On the flip side though a lower ability driver that has a none finish for what ever reason is even less likely to be able to drag themselves from the bottom of the listing as they have a lower chance of winning races which is what they would need to do.

You could still mix the drivers up, but put people into more closely graded heats than say an F1 with an F5. It may mean racing against the same person more than once and I am not 100% sure how you could work out the points. But it would make the racing closer for the drivers and more entertaining for spectators too as it would be less predictable as to who is going to win.

The laps system however does work, especially at Laword Buggy Club where they are one if not the biggest off road club in the East of England, and one of the friendliest clubs I have ever raced at.

[mole2k]

I have never raced a lap system before but one of my main concerns about it would be, If i was racing and had a bad race the first race and ended up breaking my car and having to retire. That would then mean I was getting punished the entire meeting for that one mistake since I cant just drop that round and concentrate on getting the car ready for the next round.

[Juddy]

The lap racing format that we run at lbc, works like this.

18 round championship, best 12 scores to count, 5 heats of 5 car races, scores 5 pts for 1st 1pt for 5th.
All scores count to give you a final score out of 25 for the meeting. 2wd and 4wd run together through the heats, they go in to seperate A final for each class, the b,c,d finals are then mixed. (The final scores don't count to the class championship, they count towards the club championship but we won't go their now).
These heat scores then count towards the 2wd and 4wd championship. if you want to win the 4wd you need to average around the 23pts mark over 12 round scores, to win the 2wd your looking at around 19 with the odd 21 22. so the more rounds you do hopfully the more bad scores you can drop!

So yes a retirement would then leave you looking at a score out of 20 for the day, so then its a case of damage limitation. it gives you more determination to win all your other races, as you can still take points off those you compeating against, your also watching all the races, hoping maybe that a lesser driver can have a good day and beat whoever is around you in the championship.
This as i'm sure you can imagin leads to you making sure your car is in tip top condition each week, and it also encourages all to drive clean and smooth. all our drivers are improving all the time ( though not saying any of us god like yet;) ) and we try to help noobs and people coming back after long layoffs, as much as possible.

Its a fun and easy way to get a meeting going, Its certainly not how the worlds should be run!
Its our veiw that its not the BRCAs job to activly setup clubs and promote grass roots leavel racing, they are their to run and promote regional and national events, showcaseing the best drivers around. :cool:

Rob has with Jims support and imput put togther a simple website detailing how to get a simple club setup, if it is of any help to anyone and if 1 club comes out of it and get a few more people racing, then thats a good job done!:)

Thanks to JCB for his kind words.

Could those who have not tryed this format or visited our club please try to reserve judgement a little, or at least try to avoid using offensive terms to describe it. :(
You of course are entitled to your veiw, but a bit of respect should be showen!
Rob, Jim and people like them are the back bone for our sport outside of the BRCA!!

Thanks Justin

[ashleyb4]

I think we sould run fastest lap cus i can hit some realy fast laps some times but i can only get them once. But this isnt pacticale so it aint going to happen.

A

[TRF_Tastic]

Hi all.

I've never suggested we should throw out the existing 5 minute format, only that there is an alternative.


Jim I take issue with your comments, as on another forum you said the following and I quote.

"Anyway, I think it's a great shame that we have all this Regional stuff, as I believe R/C Racing would be much the better without it.

No matter how you look at it, 'timed' racing and pointless Regional competitions spoil the whole concept of R/C RACING!"

Do you not think that this is an infamatory comment to make by a club chairman on an open forum??? especialy when so much hard work goes into making regionals happen... Hmmmm a definate 2-10 moment imho and a snub to all those that have worked hard to get things running this year in a profesional manner..

[alteredoggy]

just to add to TRF's post above
people have put a lot of effort into the regionals this year
just to have some one call them pointless

Could those who have not tryed this format or visited our club please try to reserve judgement a little, or at least try to avoid using offensive terms to describe it. :(
You of course are entitled to your veiw, but a bit of respect should be showen!

that works both ways

[Nick Goodall]

I think we sould run fastest lap cus i can hit some realy fast laps some times but i can only get them once. But this isnt pacticale so it aint going to happen.

A

Single fast laps just prove you're not really properly in control, that just encourages people to go flat out and occasionally they will have a lap where they are quick (lucky)! No form or racing is ever won in this way, and for a damn good reason :D

I actually think this Lap racing is cool for club racers, great for getting spectators interested which ultimately produces more interest and possible racers in the sport. I think it's a shame when a club can't run because they don't have the funds for an AMB system or computer etc.

I wouldn't encourage it at the more serious events, but i don't think that's what the guys are trying to do here - it's just a great format for a cheap fun days racing for all involved.

[Juddy]

Jim has been openly saying this for the last 20 years, and that post is part of an on going debate people like Jim, Rob and JCB have been having for the last 18 months, Jims comments should be taken in the context of these ongoing open and free discussions, if you have a issue with jims comments this is the wronge website.

Alot of effort has been put into this years event that is why we spent hours at the track getting it ready as best we could, as we did last year and will do again, that is why i and others, went out of our way to provide food and refreashment for all.
Also i and whoever else will attend all the rounds we can, don't forget JCB and Trev are well liked and respected members at LBC, They know Jims veiws and we all get on just fine, and nobody would wish or do anything to disrupt or impeed the future growth of E of E regionals.

[Juddy]

You know that Nick, thanxs:cool:

[bigred5765]

me and Mick cragg ran a buggy club a few years back, well a lot of years back actually, and we had no computer it was all done with pen and paper,we ran the same system as we do now so you cant say lap racing is there because you cant run the current system that way,and we had 50-60 plus drivers every week,i can see both sides of the argument, but i have to say lap racing seems to be aimed at giving the under dog a chance to shine, which you may say is a good idea for new racers, but i think it would give them a false sense of how good they are getting, as when they reach a normal run meeting, they would be so low down the field it would in my opinion, ruin there day,and the thought that if i couldn't run all 5 rounds without losing one, would spoil are days racing, as most people don't manage to run 4 rounds,may be if u made it 3 or 4 from 5 may help and ease the transition from one system to the other

[LBC]

Jim I take issue with your comments, as on another forum you said the following and I quote.

"Anyway, I think it's a great shame that we have all this Regional stuff, as I believe R/C Racing would be much the better without it.

No matter how you look at it, 'timed' racing and pointless Regional competitions spoil the whole concept of R/C RACING!"

Do you not think that this is an infamatory comment to make by a club chariman on an open forum??? especialy when so much hard work goes into making regionals happen... Hmmmm a definate 2-10 moment imho and a snub to all those that have worked hard to get things running this year in a profesional manner..

And I stand by that, I do think it's a shame, but I never said throw out the 5 minute format. Don't get so heavy Leigh, we are all entitled to our opinions- after all, that's what a forum is for.

[LBC]

Single fast laps just prove you're not really properly in control, that just encourages people to go flat out and occasionally they will have a lap where they are quick (lucky)! No form or racing is ever won in this way, and for a damn good reason :D

I actually think this Lap racing is cool for club racers, great for getting spectators interested which ultimately produces more interest and possible racers in the sport. I think it's a shame when a club can't run because they don't have the funds for an AMB system or computer etc.

I wouldn't encourage it at the more serious events, but i don't think that's what the guys are trying to do here - it's just a great format for a cheap fun days racing for all involved.

Many thanks for your comments Nick, well said!

[TRF_Tastic]

, and nobody would wish or do anything to disrupt or impeed the future growth of E of E regionals.

I take it Juddy that you have not read Jim's post that I quoted, about scraping pointless regionals!

Jim, believe you me I am not getting heavy, I just take exception to comments like yours that undermine the hard work and time and effort put in by the unpaid volunteers.

Just my opinion.

[Juddy]

Yeah people could do what ever they like!

Its a fair point about finding it hard to adjust, though we're good in our finals! (not me though yet, keep getting dissed! this week!)

Its strange though when your running against the clock, we feel less presure in some ways and that seems end up with us backing off just a bit to much. Also when i listen to the top drivers talking about there approch to certain parts of the track how they feel they can make up time here or their, thats somthing we don't tend to do and need to work on.

[LBC]

Jim I take issue with your comments, as on another forum you said the following and I quote.

"Anyway, I think it's a great shame that we have all this Regional stuff, as I believe R/C Racing would be much the better without it.

No matter how you look at it, 'timed' racing and pointless Regional competitions spoil the whole concept of R/C RACING!"

Do you not think that this is an infamatory comment to make by a club chairman on an open forum??? especialy when so much hard work goes into making regionals happen... Hmmmm a definate 2-10 moment imho and a snub to all those that have worked hard to get things running this year in a profesional manner..

Leigh, I am in no way snubbing anyone, only the format.

[LBC]

me and Mick cragg ran a buggy club a few years back, well a lot of years back actually, and we had no computer it was all done with pen and paper,we ran the same system as we do now so you cant say lap racing is there because you cant run the current system that way,and we had 50-60 plus drivers every week,i can see both sides of the argument, but i have to say lap racing seems to be aimed at giving the under dog a chance to shine, which you may say is a good idea for new racers, but i think it would give them a false sense of how good they are getting, as when they reach a normal run meeting, they would be so low down the field it would in my opinion, ruin there day,and the thought that if i couldn't run all 5 rounds without losing one, would spoil are days racing, as most people don't manage to run 4 rounds,may be if u made it 3 or 4 from 5 may help and ease the transition from one system to the other

Bigred,
there's no reason why any club adopting this format couldn't have the best 3 or 4 scores from 5- whatever suits!

[Coastal]

Leigh

I don't think this type of racing was ever intended for very large meetings.

Also where do you get 6 x 5 minutes races in offroad ?

At Coastal Club Meetings:D

[Coastal]

Typicaly Coastal is 6 x 5 min races and before you say "but they race to the same format" they dont. It is run to the Reedy format which is different, it just happens to be over 10 laps or 5 mins which ever happens sooner.

Even regionals are 5 x 5 mins, still more track time, than the laps format.

We actually run to 10 laps as that equates more or less to 5 mins, the race winner must complete 10 laps. However each race is fully timed using the BBK system. Each driver gets 6 races, the best 4 count towards their finishing position, this allows each driver to discard a non finish or whatever. The heats are mixed so drivers hopefully have different drivers in each race.

In the off road the different abilities do not seem to make such a difference in the races as they do in our touring races. And yes we have F1/F2 drivers in with F5's and it seems to work.

With our touring cars we run 3 qualis & 3 legged finals. I also believe we were one of the first clubs to run grid order in legs 2 & 3 of the finals in the order of the previous final leg.

[TRF_Tastic]

Barry the format you run to is in my mind the best of both worlds, using the timing and discarding your two worst runs.

The reason why I race at Coastal is you have a knack of making the format work for everyone and throw in some twists to make it interesting.

10/10 and keep it up...

[Steve.T]

The lapped versus timed is a debate that has been discussed for years.
I am firmly in favour of lapped racing.
The simple reason is the competitiveness is better.
In a lapped race you are competing against the the drivers in your heat and only your heat. If you win job done.
In a timed heat you may be in a class of your own but may get a lesser time because you are not pushed to do better! As a result a driver in a more competitive heat may finish 4th in their heat and do a better time even if you beat them every time you race them head to head!
For this reason I do a 240 mile round trip to lawford buggy club on a regular basis to race and not race in and around berkshire where I live in the UK (This only for the format and that I have been racing at Lawford for 15 years and not because I dislike the berkshire tracks).

Saying that it is very difficult to race lapped at regional and national because it is hard to maintain parity.......but not impossible.
Anyone who has not raced lapped before and disagree's with me should come to race at lawford or the costal club.
Even if you are not convinced you will still have a good time

[Teddy truman]

i love the idea! but i think it is for one off special meetings defo.:D