what bits in a truggy? [Archive]

View Full Version : what bits in a truggy?

450kid

11-01-2010, 09:15 PM

JonyNitro

11-01-2010, 11:22 PM

jasonwipf

11-01-2010, 11:37 PM

ive just bought a xray truggy to convert to electric and am lost what bits i need for a truggy?:eh?:

which is the best combo? tekin or mmm?
and can you really get a 30 min run out of one of these? or twenty?:woot:

am not botherd what it costs just want the right parts firts time:thumbsup:
cheers
Ben
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Well I ran both MMM and Tekin and both are awesome. Tekin, like MMM had problems with their first few batches of motors but fixed them and new cases are rare or due to someone being sold old stock. The MMM 2200 truggy motor is one of the best reliability and power for the money you can get. On a hot day dont let the fan go out, and you surely wont get 20 to 30 min of battery pack unless its HUGE. and they have been known to blow out their front bearing. Castle wont sell you a replacement but instead have you send it in to get a new motor. I'm waiting on my 2nd blow out replacement at the moment.

The Tekin 2000kv Truggy motor will be alot better efficiency wise and run cooler with its higher capacity ESC. Its more for racing and has on board tuning features, sensored and its own temp gauge that makes it very user friendly. Costs more but you get more as well as more motor options.

Pinion testing with your drive style will help get max run time too. Its increadable what 1 tooth will do sometimes. due to the difficulty of changing pinons and adjusting the mess with the RC monster motor mount I used to just "settle" with an all around gear. For that reason I like the Elite RC mount that allows me to change a pinion under super fast, to really let me tune for the very different tracks I swap around between in my area.

http://www.elitercd.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=2

Easy to change bearings, motors, clean things & adjust gear mesh, plus the added bearing (same type as nitro clutch bearing) helps take alot of the load off the main bearing and shield it from dirt. Again it costs more than the RC monster mount but you get what you pay for and if money is not an object for quality then... well you know. I spent way more money trying to be cheap only to get the good stuff later, I sorta wish I had your approach or knew better when I got my 1st stuff.

Oh if you do get the Elite mount put a note that Jason Wipf plugged you into his product and I know he will move you up the priority list if he is tight on supply as that is a popular mount.

450kid

12-01-2010, 09:37 AM

cheers for the help lads think I will go for the tekin combo and elite mount, that 4s 6500 looks good are the big capacity max amps batterys any good?

Marvin

12-01-2010, 03:05 PM

STOP right there!

First, RC-Monster are releasing a complete conversion kit for the XT8-09 (or the older one with a new rear centre shaft) - which will be online this week. It comprises a complete chassis, motor mount, battery box and centre diff mounts. Link. (http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22677) Note that the pictures there show the prototype - go to the third page and you'll see the pre-anodised final version.

Here's a sneak peek:
http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8300&d=1262973758

Second, I would go with the MMM along with a 2200 motor for 4S.

I'm not sure what Jason is talking about with the 'higher capacity ESC' with the Tekin - they are both rated the same, and from my experience the MMM will take more of a beating (excluding the fan, which is weak at best).

If you want to run higher voltage - go with the Tekin, 1700KV for 5S, and 1350KV for 6S. Make sure you get it from someone like RC-Monster - they made sure they got the new stock from Tekin. (Even sent old stock back to get them updated with the new rotor).

Maxamps packs...

Avoid.

Go with the Hyperion VX series for less money, and get more performance, better cells and better matching.

No chance will you get 20 minutes with a 4S 6500, you'll need closer to 8000mAh for 20 minutes with a truggy.

I can get 20 minutes (racing plus cool down laps) with a 5S 5500 pack, and I'd suggest that 5S is the voltage you'd want to run. Higher voltage combined with a lower KV motor will mean cooler running, and thus higher efficiency than a higher KV motor, with less voltage, as there would be higher current flow.

Try reading my beginner's guide (http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29316), as it will answer many of your queations.

jasonwipf

12-01-2010, 05:18 PM

STOP right there!

RATINGS:
Tekin rated at 210 cont. amps, Castle Mamba 120 cont. amps. Both run same mag lev fans @ 5v
Tekin's Cooling fins have more exposure to air flow but their case is smaller and sealed from the elements. Mamba has more plastic restricting air flow compared to tekin and yet its case (especially if you get the ones where the battery wire is not a plug) that is open allowing dust to go right down onto the mother board and settle on and underneath it, add moisture to that dust and your asking for a short circuit which hasn't happened to me but 2 other racer buds of mine. They are in need of a case update, the plug type battery was move in the right direction.

MILAGE:
I've been posting requests for peoples truggy and buggy milage for the last few weeks on multiple forums and so far on average 4s MM 2200 vs. T8 2000 shows the Castle motor getting 9% WORSE milage than the Tekin. Thats more about the KV math really, but they describe the 2200 as super to over powerful, the 2000 as just about right and great for racing and the 1700 as good for small tracks but a tad underpowered sometimes. Your track size and required run times will help you decide here.

BALANCE & WEIGHT:
I love the way the chassis from RC monster looks and am for purpose built chassises but your still getting an inferior motor mount and especially if your trying to get 15-20 minute runs, your going to need like marvin said a 6500-8000mah battery which when put on the other side will make that left side HUGELY unbalanced. You are likely to see the car sway to one side on jumps or turn differently one way vs. the other, you will see more wear and scraping under your chassis on the heavy side. Depending on your pack (6.5k or 8k) and if you put the ESC on the battery side too, your looking at 25-35% weight imbalance on that left side.

VOLTAGE:
I do like 5s or even 6s vs 4s for efficiency. Marvin is right you will be cooler, run longer per MAH spent and dont have to use as high of a MAH pack to reach the same runtime as a 4s. But you have to understand while while a 4100mah 5s might get the same milage as a 5000mah 4s (due to cooler running efficiency) you will have 1 extra cell on the 5s, making the weight and cost be about the same. (compare this with equal C ratings and you'll see what I mean). So, 5s or 6s with the appropriate motor is great for cooler runnings especially in summer but dont do it thinking your going to save money or weight on batteries.

The only down side to 5s or 6s is flexibly. You see I honestly want to run 5 or 6s like I used to and believe they are superior but currently run 4s because on rare occasion when I have been in need of a battery or motor (perhaps i forgot to charge a pack, a rotor spun or bearing blew out), since 4s is about 70% of the electric racers out there, its much easier to borrow a spare from people. Again see what others are running in your area and decide whats best for YOUR situation.

BATTERIES:
Marvin is right MAX amps suck balls. Hyperion is amongst the best and you can charge them at up to 5c (granted you get a charger that can charge that high) for super fast charging times.

Marvin

12-01-2010, 05:53 PM

You are right about the Tekin's ratings, but truthfully they are thought of having the same power capabilities - Castle may have derived their current rating from 6S, whilst Tekin at 4S - the current would be higher, but overall power may be the same.

In fairness, ratings mean nothing - they can be fiddled so easily, that you cannot trust any manufacturer; they will both run any motor in an 1/8th scale - that's what's important.

MMM vs RX8 debate could go on for years, so consider - is sensored required? Do I run in a very dusty environment? And other such questions, and go with what you're comfortable with - they're both great. I personally had a better experience with my MMMs, than with my RX8. Now I have an MMP - and I'm sure I'll like that too.

With the '09 spec, the drivetrain is fairly offset - so you can get away with a larger battery more easily than with a straighter-drivelined truggy. Balance will only be noticeable/particularly important on a very smooth fast track. In the UK, most tracks are a little more off-road than in the US, and it is far less noticeable.

Weight and cost of 5S and 6S vs 4S for the same battery power - there are no savings to be had as Jason rightly said. What you do gain is a little efficiency - and thus a little extra run-time. You'll need the same discharge ('C') rating for any of the voltages, assuming the total power is the same.

Frankly, I'd look at doing a battery change in the longer finals - it'll be fairly quick with a truggy - lift the side of the body up, unstrap the battery remove and replace. 20 seconds or so in all if your pit crew are well practiced, and if you have connectors like EC5s or Deans (no polarity issues to worry about). EC5s would be better with a truggy though (extra current draw).

Judging by the fact that he'll be running 20 minute finals, no-one in his area runs 1/8 electric - we are a few years behind you in the UK - 1/8th electric is still very rare, people will spend £460 on a Durango, but not a similar amount on 1/8th... :(

Other battery brands worth looking at include Polyquest, Thunderpower, and, if on a budget, Zippy or Turnigy's higher discharge rated packs.

450kid

12-01-2010, 10:42 PM

:thumbsup:cheersyou two enjoyed reading both your points:thumbsup:

am now undesided over the rx8 and the mmp with the 2000kv tekin or the 1800kv or 2250kv mamba?

how much weight difference is the 4s to the 5s
i will be racing it at probley just club races or if owt good pops up for electric 1/8th i might travel to that the only problem is i dont need anyone who runs one near me and ive never seen a brushless truggy:woot:

so your help is realy helpful! i race my mbx6 with o.s. at the min and can easy get 10mins on most tracks, most of the lads i go with are old skool and think electric is wrong is just a faze that will pass:(

i also run 1/10th 2wd an 4wd with a rb5 and cat sx which i seem better with then my rallycross so a conversion seems like fun.
the new chasis looks good is it desighn to run 4s or more and still be balanced? any idea how much? i have never dealt with countrys abroad do the goods turn up fast? and what about import dutie?

am having a head ache decideing what to get but this poor twat on tv has had hicups for 2 years!
back to the subject:o isnt sensored better then non cause of the cogging and stuff? just rembering some orion systems that i sore which seemed crap.:confused:
cheers
Ben
:wtf::rolleyes::wtf:

Marvin

12-01-2010, 11:48 PM

Frankly, cogging is more noticeable in 1/10 than 1/8. When I ran sensorless - I could never tell there was cogging - the Castle firmware for the ESC is really good. The RX8 is a little smoother off the line and when doing 'fine throttle management'.

I wouldn't run the MMP in a truggy - it's only a 1/10th ESC afterall.

4S vs 5S, for the same power (capacity times voltage) will weigh nearly the same (give or take a few grams, nothing more) - so there's no advantage there.

Import duty is always a pain when ordering from abroad. Mike (RC-Monster owner) does usually mark up packages at half-value, but I will say, prepare to add 17.5% of the value of the goods + £8-13.50 on top of your budget for anything coming from the US. This is why it's best to get much of your stuff from the same place - even if another shop is $20 cheaper, by the time you've paid for shipping and import duty, it's not worth it.

Use www.rclipos.com for good quality LiPos - they do free worldwide shipping, and mark the value of the goods down low. Use RC-Monster if you want their conversion kit for the ESC and motor too.

Pinions, get the HPI ones for the Savage Flux or the Hot Bodies ones for the Ve8 - they aren't too pricy to be honest.

My recommendations:

Budget set-up:
Castle Creations MMM with 2200KV motor
Hyperion VX 4S 5500mAh pack (x2). This should last 15 minute finals, and for longer, just do a battery change.
RC-Monster XT8 motor mount and battery box.

Better set-up:
Tekin RX8 with 1350KV motor. With the Hotwire to set it up on the PC.
ThunderPower G4 30C or 45C 5000mAh 6S LiPo - this should last 20 minutes.
RC-Monster XT8 conversion kit.
RC-Monster Slipperential.

You'll find that when racing longer finals, they turn a little bit more into Le Mans style racing, where you're trying to drive efficiently to get as long as possible out of a battery - it adds a little extra challenge to racing, which is remarkably enjoyable.

jasonwipf

13-01-2010, 05:38 PM

If you have a castle buggy side by side with a Tekin buggy and have a controler for each of them in each hand and gradually accelerate from Zero, you will see the difference BIG time.

If your very blippy and heavy on the throttle in turns you may not notice the cogging on a Castle ESC/Motor (most gas to elec converts are at first). But if your an offpower or light power into the Turning type person you will notice a smoothness difference, especially on small tight tracks when you have a sensored Tekin (many Elec guys become this way after awhile, since blimping the throttle is not really as necessary as gas and since it burns AMPs like crazy over the course of a long race). Remember Tekin RX8s are dual drive so they are sensored on the low end for smoothness but go unsensored once the RPMs go up and its not needed.

I just assembled my new MBX6T last night OMG was up till 4am. You just keep telling yourself you'll stop after the next step but it never happens, I'm actually running my old castle 2200 in it at the moment since my primary racers all have the RX8 Tekins.

I'd have to agree with Marvins "Budget vs. Better" set up that sounds about right, except of course I'd get the Elite motor mount. :p

450kid

13-01-2010, 08:18 PM

the elite mount does look nicer, i am going to order the rx8 as the price differerence is not that much but i will have to buy the hot wire seperate which bumps the price up a bit:thumbdown: but you get what u pay for. the combo only comes with the 2050kv motor is this compatable?

i would like to run 4s so would like to do a 30min final with just one pit stop to change battreys so i need a 15-17min run time so which would be the best motor to race and which would be the best motor for stupid power (just to mess with not to race:thumbsup: think i could do some hare coursing with my truggy:thumbsup: may be a new sport:eh?:)

am i right that the rc8e spur gear fits this or is the sliperental diff the thing to have (is it easy to damage a motoer without one?)

ive seen your (marvin) old tekin esc combo for sale on here y did u sell it if its so good? would that combo only be good in a buggy?

cheers
Ben
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

also is a servo brake better? does it use a lot more power? does it damage your motor having the servo stoping it?

Marvin

13-01-2010, 09:07 PM

I sold my RX8 because I'm always trying new things - that's how I could write my guide.

I've had two MMMs, an RX8 and an MMP.

Why do you only want to run 4S?

Use the 1900KV motor with 4S - it'll eke out a longer run time in finals. Also remember they do two lengths of motor - you need the longer one (for truggy use, extra torque over the buggy motors).

To get 15 minutes, you'd need one of the Hyperion VX 5500mAh 4S packs - IF you drive well/cleanly/efficiently. If you're not so sure, get the Hyperion VX 4S 6500mAh pack.

The slipperential IS the thing to have. I love mine. You'd need the 46T spur with the XT8. It helps you drive the car on loose tracks, saves the motor from harsh landings and bumpy tracks, and aids traction. It also can prevent you from going 'full beans' out of corners as it slips a little - stopping you from crashing into the next corner as you go too fast!

Mechanical brakes vs ESC brakes is an old argument now. I personally like ESC braking - I never used the extra tuning offered by mech brakes when I ran nitro, so I saw no need to retain the extra 100g for the servo, and the added complexity. Many are the same as me, or are happy to give up the adjustment. It's up to you. Personal preference. The RC-Monster kit is better suited to ESC brakes though - it'll need a little work (making servo mounts etc) for mech brakes to work.

450kid

13-01-2010, 10:56 PM

the choice on 4s is because i look at it this way;-

i cant make 30mins on one set off lipos
so
i have to do at least one pit stop if i run 4s or 5s
and as 4s are cheaper and lighter it seamed the better choice
pls tell me if you think different as i take both your veiws with good intrest:thumbsup:
what is the slipperental like for wearing out the slipper pads?
and why is the rc-monster mount better suited to braking with the esc?
so is the 1900kv motor fast enough to run with the nitros?
i think i might be better buying 2 motors a 1350kv to run with 6s if the final is 20mins and a 1900kv motor to run with 4s for 30min finals making one stop
what do most orher people run cause i dont know anyone else running one?
how long are the races in the u.s.?

Marvin

13-01-2010, 11:58 PM

Remember, you can not only vary the voltage of the battery, but also the capacity.

A 4S 5000mAh has the same power (read same run time ignoring efficiency) as a 5S 4000mAh pack, and as a 6S 3333mAh pack. All will be about the same weight and price. The 6S (with an appropriate motor and gearing) will give the most run time - it is the most efficient as the total power is the same as the 4S set-up, as the current has reduced, so the heat build up will be less - less energy from the battery is wasted as heat.

Any of the motors will be more than fast enough to run with the nitros to be honest. The 1900 will be a little calmer on 4S than the 2050KV. On 5S I'd pick the 1550 if it is a smaller track, and the 1700 if it is larger. On 6S, I'd go with the 1350.

If you have a read of the suggested rules for electrics in the UK, we are to run 10 minute finals (and have two legs - results added together).

The RC-Monster mount isn't what makes the mech brakes a problem - it has mounting holes for the pads, it's the chassis - it was never designed or drilled for the second servo required.

Voltages wise, I have run 4S, 5S and now run 6S. My current packs are 2500mAh 22.2V (6S). These are good for about 12-15 minutes racing on the track, with my motor, settings, track and driving style.

450kid

14-01-2010, 02:10 AM

so if I run a rx8 with a 1350kv and a 6500 6s 35c hyperion lipo I should be in to the 20 mins give or take a few?

jasonwipf

14-01-2010, 05:56 AM

6500mah 6cell with that motor will get you around 30 min @ 210mah/min (buggy is about 160mah/min with same set up) but OMG at 1011g thats super heavy man. the 5000mah pack should get you thru a 20min main and be 30% lighter. Also depends on your track, my truggy milage is based on averages from U.S. tracks and they are tighter than faster euro tracks.

Marvin

14-01-2010, 09:46 AM

Agreed with Jason, a 6S 5000 will be enough for 20 minutes - a 6S 6500 won't quite be enough for 30 minutes I fear, but it'll be FAR too heavy anyway. 1kg of battery on one side of the car really will affect its balance. Oh, and its ability to move.

450kid

14-01-2010, 11:05 AM

I've just clicked on to what you mean by 4s,5s or 6s run time and weight is all the same, so I am going to aim for 15-17 mins so what would you have to run with;-
4s
5s
6s
Battery capacity and motor?
Sorry if you think you are talking to a brick wall this is all new to me so its taking some sinking in!!!!

Marvin

14-01-2010, 06:07 PM

4S - 5500mAh to 6500mAh - 1900KV motor
5S - 4400mAh to 5200mAh - 1700KV motor
6S - 3600mAh to 4300mAh - 1350KV motor

gnr racer

14-01-2010, 06:30 PM

Can i throw a spanner in.....
whats the recomended Lipo for an 1800kv in a buggy?

Marvin

14-01-2010, 10:55 PM

5S or 4S (5S for sprightly performance, 4S if you have a tight track, and need more controlability).

450kid

14-01-2010, 11:51 PM

just trying to work this out is the motor more efficent if th wh is higher or lower?

jasonwipf

15-01-2010, 03:35 AM

Ya the higher the voltage the more efficient so cooler system and better milage.

Gnr racer: depends, what run time are you shooting for in that buggy?

gnr racer

15-01-2010, 05:36 PM

Ya the higher the voltage the more efficient so cooler system and better milage.

Gnr racer: depends, what run time are you shooting for in that buggy?
Im looking for as much run time as possible to be honest &i do want to go 5 cell for that extra punch but im looking at weight too....
the Hyperion 5cell 5500mah is 745g! where as the 5cell 4200mah is 561g
I did read on rc tech that it is recommended to keep the lipo weight in the Losi buggy to less than 600g so im not to sure if the 4200 would suit the conversion better

Marvin

15-01-2010, 05:52 PM

Right. Higher voltage is ONLY more efficient WHEN the same power is required (ie overall speed) as the lower voltage set-ups.

A 4S set up geared for 40mph is less efficient than a 6S set-up geared for 40mph. A 4S set-up geared for 40 compared with a 6S set up geared for 60 isn't a fair comparison.

So a low KV motor paired with high voltage, geared for x, is more efficient than a high KV motor paired with low voltage, geared for x.

I ran a 5S 5500mAh Hyperion in my buggy (XB808) and it went well - the Losi conversion doesn't place the battery in the optimum location for heavier batteries - in this case a custom build would be better.

5S doesn't always give more punch - only if you don't change the gearing or motor from the lower voltage. It's possible to have a faster low voltage car than the high voltage - it's not all down to the voltage - the motor and gearing also play a big factor.