Can vintage keep up with a modern car?

[Glenn]

I have been running my XX at south lakes for a couple of years and I have had some good results but I was wondering if I should upgrade to maybe the new Cougar or an RB5. Not keen on the B4 as everyone has one.

My question is, if I could set my XX up correctly will I be able to compete and win against younger cars or should I ditch the vintage machine and spend lots of wad? Would I be wasting my money?

I think it can compete, especially with a good driver. Does anyone else run a vintage car with more modern machines?

[Si Coe]

I seem to be remarkably successful in trucks (a minority class admittedly, but with a reasonable local following) campaigning a near 20 year old original RC10T against its own more modern ancestors like the T4 and SC10. At several Bury rounds people have commented that my ancient truck looks more planted than the newer ones, and I too am sure that my skills at the wheel are more a limit than the age of my truck!

[mikeyscott]

I have been running my XX at south lakes for a couple of years and I have had some good results but I was wondering if I should upgrade to maybe the new Cougar or an RB5. Not keen on the B4 as everyone has one.

My question is, if I could set my XX up correctly will I be able to compete and win against younger cars or should I ditch the vintage machine and spend lots of wad? Would I be wasting my money?

I think it can compete, especially with a good driver. Does anyone else run a vintage car with more modern machines?

Definately as we have a few XXCRs running at our club and they beat the modern stuff.

XXCR Kinwald has the track record at our club for 2WD

Awesome car. The difference I have found myself is you can be more aggressive with the B4 and get away with it.

I have a B4 and XXCR and I enjoy the XXCR more than the B4 and it also beats new kit.

PM SteveB on here for my XX info

[tymill]

I still race my 6-gear gold tub rc10 at EPR and around the south east. The same car I raced when I was a teenager in California in the '80s...

Now to be honest, I'm certianly not winning too many races - but not coming in last either..

for 4wd, I run a modern car (b44), and still come in similarly in the standings - so if you take my driving skills out of the equation - the car doesn't seem to be too too much of a handicap..

I think it's got a whole lot to do with the driver, yet there's no doubt that a modern car could be much faster than the 10 - esp w/ the 6 gear. but hey - I love it nonetheless...

Cheers,
Ty

[LowClassCC]

running vintage has both some advantages and disadvantages over the modern buggies. i run both vintage and modern. depending how old the vintage buggy is you make have to figure out some things to swap on it to help make it more competitive.

on the track you will notice that different areas a vintage buggy will be faster yet other areas it will be slower. now as a driver you should be able to make it work so you can run equal lap times with the modern guys.

the biggest downside is parts. be sure you carry every possible spare that you can because the track most likely wont have what you need if you break it.

the best part is the look on the other racers faces when you beat them driving an antique.

[mikeyscott]

I still race my 6-gear gold tub rc10 at EPR and around the south east. The same car I raced when I was a teenager in California in the '80s...

Now to be honest, I'm certianly not winning too many races - but not coming in last either..

for 4wd, I run a modern car (b44), and still come in similarly in the standings - so if you take my driving skills out of the equation - the car doesn't seem to be too too much of a handicap..

I think it's got a whole lot to do with the driver, yet there's no doubt that a modern car could be much faster than the 10 - esp w/ the 6 gear. but hey - I love it nonetheless...

Cheers,
Ty

Sounds like a trip to EPR with a XX

Come down to Titchfield as Steve loves his vintage Associated and Losi

[Welshy40]

running vintage has both some advantages and disadvantages over the modern buggies. i run both vintage and modern. depending how old the vintage buggy is you make have to figure out some things to swap on it to help make it more competitive.

on the track you will notice that different areas a vintage buggy will be faster yet other areas it will be slower. now as a driver you should be able to make it work so you can run equal lap times with the modern guys.

the biggest downside is parts. be sure you carry every possible spare that you can because the track most likely wont have what you need if you break it.

the best part is the look on the other racers faces when you beat them driving an antique.

You have hit the nail on the head as your comments are spot on.

My vintage was excellent on very low grip surfaces and never lost a club race but on high grip i had to redesign to try at least to get it on a level playing field. The problems are as said getting parts, and in my case as the car is one of a very few ive had to get spares made up. I also found at the petit i broke my car in four races but was going at the same pace as the rest in my heat until it broke so just a bit of work can make a difference.

[Adam F]

Funnily enough, I have just bought two procats to test the theory!! :)

Procat No1 - £10.00 bargain from ebay as a parts donor... Complete minus a shell & wing..

Procat No2 - £45.95 from ebay, with loads of spares and in very good nick!!

Will be running modern electrics/cells so should be more or less as quick as the majority, cant wait to see how it goes!!! :thumbsup:

[DerbyDan]

Funnily enough, I have just bought two procats to test the theory!! :)

Procat No1 - £10.00 bargain from ebay as a parts donor... Complete minus a shell & wing..

Procat No2 - £45.95 from ebay, with loads of spares and in very good nick!!

Will be running modern electrics/cells so should be more or less as quick as the majority, cant wait to see how it goes!!! :thumbsup:

Cool - same here, i've got an RC10 I am re-building, hoping to fit modern brushless & LiPo & give it a go against the B4s etc. Funny as the last time I raced Off road was about ten years ago, with what was then a new Losi XXX, this is virtually still the current Losi 2wd car, yet back then I prefered my old XX that i'd just sold over the new car.... so i'm not suprised the Double X can still cut the mustard.

By the way X313 - I see you are in Northants - where abouts are you intending to race your Procat/s?

[Northy]

Yes :D

I ran an ali tub RC10 at a York indoor regional with lipo/brushless and qualified 3rd and finished 3rd beating an AE team driver with his B4 and other quick guys :wub

Also ran the ProCat with 10 double and ran competativly in A finals at York club meetings :wub

G

[Adam F]

Depending on the weather and how well it goes, might give it a try at the mini MAM event on the 14th Feb at Cov, I havent raced one since 1990 so cant wait to give it a try, plus there are some retro heats at Hinckley in the summer months, so will probably take it over there too...

Just wish I still had my old Cat xls too.. they were the days... :wub

[tymill]

I ran an ali tub RC10 at a York indoor regional with lipo/brushless and qualified 3rd and finished 3rd beating an AE team driver with his B4 and other quick guys :wub

Awesome.

[Glenn]

I don't find spares much of an issue. I have loads and you can always pick them up on e-bay. Having said that I have problems finding smaller spur gears.

One thing I have noticed. The car under steers on the power. Getting out of the bends as fast as a B4 is tricky. If you go in slower you get monstered from behind and taken out. Not sure how I can dial it out. I want to be able to get the back out under power without it spinning but I haven't yet found a set-up that will do that for me.

[Stu]

I put my XX 10th in round at Worksop last winter, last time it turned a wheel.

That was with a period M-tronics 900VHF ESC, Reedy Sonic motor and old cells.

In the hands of a top driver it's not inconceiveable that a XX could not make a national 'A'.

[Stu]

........One thing I have noticed. The car under steers on the power. .......

Maximum front droop & extra lead up front.
Tune it from there.

[mikeyscott]

I put my XX 10th in round at Worksop last winter, last time it turned a wheel.

That was with a period M-tronics 900VHF ESC, Reedy Sonic motor and old cells.

In the hands of a top driver it's not inconceiveable that a XX could not make a national 'A'.

Awesome. Still got it and running it?

[Stu]

Yeah, sure have. I have a XX, a XXCR and a XXCR-KE, all ready to go.
Maybe at the next Bury indoor meet?

[Northy]

I'm gonna get the RC10 tub running again - it's a weapon :wub

G

[mikeyscott]

I'm gonna get the RC10 tub running again - it's a weapon :wub

G

Only cause they are built like tanks with the front end!

[Stu]

Just been looking for some photos from when we were running the vintage stuff a few years back, can't find anything online any longer - I'll put some back up tomorrow.

[sldmodels]

I'd say that as long as you're happy with it, and doing well, no need to change cars. I would keep an eye on the spares market for it, as if that dry's up and you have a major crash, your car could be on the shelf for quite some time.

I upgraded from the TC4 to the 5, simply because I felt that as a shop, I should be running the latest equipment, and although performance wise, I didn't need to do it, the 5 runs a lot better than the 4 ever did, even if I'm now only getting to match and beat it's race results.

Guessing you're wanting a 2wd though if you change, but have you thought about the Yok BD-Max? It's an amazing looking car, and the story is it was seen as a bit of a joke "cheap-end-of-the-market" car, until it started winning races, and now it's been carbon-ed up.

[Northy]

There's some on here isn't there?

G

[Northy]

http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/yorkvintage/ :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Those were the days :cry:

[Stu]

http://www.northernracer.com/posted/160.jpg

http://www.northernracer.com/posted/159.jpg

[DerbyDan]

http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/yorkvintage/ :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Those were the days :cry:

Brilliant (& some amusing:D) pictures! Really getting me excited about running in some of these vintage meets, hopefully during this year :thumbsup:

[mikeyscott]

Love the pic of the XXCR. Reminds me I need to send a XX shell to Blitzboy

[traffman]

The phrase those were the days matches that picture of the old optimas and the like sooo much .

I was getting all misty eyed. Back then you were good if you hadnt dumped by the 5 minutes gone.

Ps any one else here remember the old Queensferry club under the Forth road bridge ?

Thats were it all started for me circa 1988 ish.

Ps I get whupped week after week with a chap with a xxcr at our club and i run a B44.

I may just nick my mates Lwb optima for one of the races.

[Dyna]

Not sure if i'd class a Losi XX as vintage really ( as far as performance goes ), as although technically it came out in '93 it had a looong shelf life and was quite capable of winning big even after the XXX came out. I think it was fair to say the XX was one of 'The next Generation' of buggies then, and as is proven now, still a very capable buggy even today.

To me, Vintage is pre-93-ish...so no XX's, B2's, Cougar & CAT 2000's etc etc. These buggies are still quite capable of mixing with todays buggies, especially at club level and even Regional level - as long as you have spares !

For example i ran a Traxxas TRX1, Lazer ZX and Top Force at Caldicots Vintage series last year, and every other buggy was pre-93-ish... original RC10's, Optima Mids, JRX Pro etc etc. As good as they were, they are all a step down in performance i feel from the post '93-ish buggies. Ok Craig Harris hustled a TRX1 round with a 7.5 at an amazing pace, but he could hustle a wheeled brick around pretty quick... :lol:

And yes i suppose you could add another 'Generation' cut-off point of around pre '84-ish to take into account Rough Riders, Bolink Diggers, Mardave Apache's, Kyosho Scorpions etc etc...

Sorry, just my own rablings & thoughts on the subject, no offence meant to anyone with more modern 'vintage' buggies - i have plenty of those too... :blush: :)

[tymill]

Optimas are legend...:thumbsup:

I lent my friend an old Salute to run at EPR last Sunday for the winter series race. Hey - he'd never raced before and he wasn't eactly on the pace - but the old 23 year old car did pretty well, knocks and all! Didn't technically even come in last...

It's just so stable (translation: slow and heavy) that it just goes where it's pointed - great for a beginner.;) And the full-width front bumper got a workout too...

It's such a tremendously complex car though - must have 3x the parts count of a modern 4wd. not to mention the individual chain links...

Cheers,
Ty

http://www.oople.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=67&pictureid=283

The phrase those were the days matches that picture of the old optimas and the like sooo much .

I was getting all misty eyed. Back then you were good if you hadnt dumped by the 5 minutes gone.

Ps any one else here remember the old Queensferry club under the Forth road bridge ?

Thats were it all started for me circa 1988 ish.

Ps I get whupped week after week with a chap with a xxcr at our club and i run a B44.

I may just nick my mates Lwb optima for one of the races.

[Adam F]

Took my Cat xls/Procat hybrid for a quick lap of the PDA on Wednesday night....:)

Managed to land it nose first into the table top on the first lap and then decided to wind my neck back in and switch to my b4 before I broke it...

Was still pretty quick, but needs a bit more fine tuning before I run it again.... (and some new elastic bands!)

[Northy]

Was still pretty quick, but needs a bit more fine tuning before I run it again.... (and some new elastic bands!)

Use actual elastic bands ;)

G

[Adam F]

Already sourced! 1 box of size 64 rubber bands now in my pit box! :D

[BORMAC]

The Procat is still a top vintage racer. Not much out there (pre 1990) that will keep up with it or be as reliable as it. My car happily runs a 12 turn every day of the week.

[Adam F]

Agreed, mine is running a Novak 6.5L brushless systen & Lipo and no problems at all.. needs the suspension setting up so it handles a bit better, but fast and seems reliable..

Just a new shell and some black wheels and its ready to go.. :)

[Welshy40]

The Procat is still a top vintage racer. Not much out there (pre 1990) that will keep up with it or be as reliable as it. My car happily runs a 12 turn every day of the week.

I can think of only one other car that can keep with it. The Lazer ZX, but do agree with you the Procat is still a designers wet dream. Brilliantly thought out and simple ideas to stop breakages made this a great car.

[kaszal]

Hi x313 how did you get on with your Procat? I'm trying mine out at Stotfold. Check out my thread "Procat for Li-Fe". Let's exchange tips to get these great cars competing again. Luke

[BORMAC]

I race my Procat on dirt and much of the time it can get a liitle loose.
The front one ways were swapped out for solid drive shafts. The biggest issue with the Procats front trans is it coming loose. Set up right you'll have little trouble. I only run Bud's orange belts and they really do make a difference. Quiet and efficient!
Luckily I had access to alloy diff outdrives, alloy trans housings and a few other odds and ends.
The standard rear shock tower is terribly soggy. I made up a fiberglass plate to stiffen things up in the rear.
Bosscat rear hangers with threaded rod right the way through with a washer and nut at each end. This makes a difference especisly if the track you drive has jumps.
There's plenty of other tips but these are eccentials.

[kaszal]

Good stuff. Thanks Jason (did you get my pm?) I remember the rear alloy trans housing cost a packet but really strengthened the whole gearbox and soaked up the motor heat. Likewise I've switched back to the alloy z-bracket because it's stronger. Fibre-Lyte make all the carbon towers so these are readily available. Wish I had the Procat front super diff (with the SE kit?) but the MMS nylon diff I'm using is still way better than the stock diff. Can you get orange belts for the rear too? I also saw Raul's custom alloy pulleys but couldn't find the right part number. It looks like they would need machining.

I didn't want to mess it up the car but I finally brought myself to race it properly. I just hope it's dry at the track because I hate cleaning it!

[BORMAC]

I also like to keep the drive train as free from debri's as possible. Both the undertray and top lexan cover is sealed up with double sided foam tape to keep rocks and dust out of the sensitive drive parts.

Wish I had a spare Procat bumper. I need one myself. :cry:

[mpg200]

I finished 3rd in the york 540 championship, with a cat 2000:)

[tymill]

My '87 gold tub 6-gear RC10 made 5th in the B at the most recent SE Regional 2wd race. :thumbsup:

(that's a pretty good result for me - much better than I've ever done in 4wd with the B44 anyway!)

Cheers,
Ty

[quincey]

my rc10 worlds qualified and finished in a c final at southport,the car was only taken to have a quick go round the track during practice it was'nt even set up,i ran it in the end for just something to do what was even more funny was the tribe of b4's it beat and d final which was full of b4's.
not bad i thought but the only problem i can see into running an old car is the spares.

[shanks]

believe rob mills (old lazer zx5) beat a certain budfish (new fs) lol

[Astutekid]

So where can we find some of this vintage racing?? Indoor??

[tymill]

Just run 'em with the rest of the class...

So where can we find some of this vintage racing?? Indoor??

[kaszal]

I'd definitely be up for a vintage class but then again, my Procat was keeping up with the others e.g. Cat SX at Stotfold. I finished in the middle of the B final :)

[Stretch]

The main problem is likely to be the transmission (provided you don't hit anything). Modern motors have a LOT more torque.

The original RC10 transmission with the diff on the layshaft struggled to cope with the 'awesome' power of 15 doubles, leading to the revised tranny with the diff at the bottom. The original CAT would take the teeth off the rear drivebelts in a couple of meetings using 14 turn motors. Don't talk to me about the rear belt of Yokomo's or the gearboxes of the original Predators...

[Stretch]

If you do hit anything, the age of the plastics, plus the additional speed will leave you with a restoration project. :)

Now, if anyone would like a mid 90's Trinity D3 modified run for one meeting, rebuilt and then left in a box....:)

[kaszal]

I also like to keep the drive train as free from debri's as possible. Both the undertray and top lexan cover is sealed up with double sided foam tape to keep rocks and dust out of the sensitive drive parts.

Wish I had a spare Procat bumper. I need one myself. :cry:

Chris at Radshape is looking at making parts for the Procat... they specialise in chasses and bumpers. Give Chris a nudge so he can guage the interest. Nice website... https://radshaperc.com/bumpers.html

[Welshy40]

If you do hit anything, the age of the plastics, plus the additional speed will leave you with a restoration project. :)

Now, if anyone would like a mid 90's Trinity D3 modified run for one meeting, rebuilt and then left in a box....:)

Well anyone driving a lazer zx wont have that problem as the wishbones are kevlar reinforced and breaking one is sooo hard to do. Also traxxas used delrin for their first buggy so also solid. But do agree the plastics do get a bit brittle the older they go..

[Stretch]

CAT Crashback front ends help tho'...:)

[kaszal]

Love 'dem crashback rings.

Here's a never-ending supply :thumbsup:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RUBBER-O-RINGS-IMPERIAL-0-862-ID-X-0-103-THICK-QTY-25-/360228763111?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item53df4eb5e7

[Bugle]

My Yokomo YZ-870C with a few mods + 5.5t keeps up ok I ran it at the state titles (NSW-Australia) the other week, only BQ'd but I don't think I would've done any better with my B44. Unfortunately the servo saver collar loosened itself off the bottom of the tube and jammed the steering in the final.. Next 2 vintage racer projects are a PB Maxima and SWB Cat.


http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff213/rgh05t/_MG_3000.jpg

[jameswilkinson7]

Love 'dem crashback rings.

Here's a never-ending supply :thumbsup:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RUBBER-O-RINGS-IMPERIAL-0-862-ID-X-0-103-THICK-QTY-25-/360228763111?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item53df4eb5e7


We used to use lamb castration rings :woot:

[shanks]

We used to use lamb castration rings :woot:

Knowing you lot from keithly the question is where and for what did you use lamb castration rings for!!

Ive seen how snug you two are in the back of that van!

[jameswilkinson7]

Knowing you lot from keithly the question is where and for what did you use lamb castration rings for!!

Ive seen how snug you two are in the back of that van!

I'm A farmers boy!!:blush:

[DerbyDan]

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff213/rgh05t/_MG_3000.jpg

Loving the 870C - looks mean with the black shell!.... & LOL @ the castration rings!:lol:

I've raced my Worlds RC10 a few times over the last few months... its been a return for myself also, to off road racing.... so running an old car was a good excuse for my bad performance :blush: I found my vintage car quite 'sketchy' on the high grip & bumpy astro turf tracks... but this is also a surface i'm not used to... the tracks I used to race on were mostly grass or a combination of surfaces.

Anyway, the last time I raced was on Hinckley's grass track at their last club meeting of the summer, the car was much more stable on this surface & actually handled really nicely, anyway I finished 3rd in the A final (IIRC I qualified 4th?) I was also holding a comfortable 2nd spot until I made a dumb mistake :eh?:

In conclusion, it would seem that at club level a vintage racer can certainly hold its own... & in the case of my RC10 can be perfectly reliable... the gearbox internals in a B4 is pretty much the same as the Stealth on my Worlds car & has handled the 6.5 brushless motor i'm running without breakage.... so far touch wood :thumbsup: My only issue was continually bending back my wire holding on the rigid Yokomo wing, think i'll replace it for a more flexible lexan jobbie.

http://www.tamiyaclub.com/getuserimage.asp?t=&id=img28990_07062010113931_5.jpg

[Welshy40]

Looks like a B2 or B3 not the metal chassi worlds car.

[GRIFF55]

how the hell can you tell that from that picture??? i thought the worlds had a carbon/fglass front and rear tower like above and also looks like the rear motor plate folds round like the old tubs???
Nice looking shell too Dan

[DerbyDan]

Looks like a B2 or B3 not the metal chassi worlds car.

:)
http://www.tamiyaclub.com/getuserimage.asp?t=&id=img28990_07062010113931_2.jpg

You can't quite see the the machined grooves in the chassis from this pic, but trust me its a Worlds RC10.

[Welshy40]

Its just the angle of the original picture and me using my moby to see the pics. Superb buggy and yes I still think this is the best one made out of all of the RC10's.:thumbsup: Wish I kept my one.

[peetbee]

Also traxxas used delrin for their first buggy so also solid. But do agree the plastics do get a bit brittle the older they go..
You should have seen the amount of traxxas parts Dyna got through in our last vintage series, age has not been good to them!

And for this year's vintage series at Caldicot - details here:
http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54946

[Stretch]

Shockbodies are early castings. but late anodised finish. Odd... :)

[super__dan]

I still like my worlds when I use it every now and again.

How much easier are the shocks to bleed with the bleeder caps? That's the one single most annoying with the stock ones.

Incidentally the diff in mine has done numerous sat night vintage nights at York and an indurance meeting, I never rebuilt it when I got the car after 12 years in someones loft and it's still pretty good. Seems materials were better 20 years ago :(

[super__dan]

Oh, nice 'Team Moo' by the way

[DerbyDan]

Oh, nice 'Team Moo' by the way

Thank-you :)

To be honest theres not much advantage using the bleeder caps... I followed the instructions word for word, but only a small amount of oil actually bled out.... & the shocks are still squelchy!:eh?: Maybe i'll have to try different techniques - but I guess squelchy shocks are a trait of the 'emulsion' type design. For obtaining consistant re-bound I didn't find I had a problem using the old ali caps, but I guess the bleeder caps makes that side of things easier? However they certainly seem more consistant at sealing the rubber o'ring - I always had one or two shocks spring a leak after a short while using the old caps.

Welshy40... you are forgiven :thumbsup: For sure the wheels are the single peice 2.2 inch items from a B2/B3 ;)

Its really nice to drive actually - a little sensitive to unforgiving bumps/lumps maybe, which is a little at odds with a general tendancy for understeer (even on astro) But generally it feels nice and robust, & there's something rather satisfying driving a car you've revived thats 17 or so years old yet keeping the modern cars at bay :)