Enough Rear and Mid motored buggies!

[BloodClod]

I've wanted to build something like this for a while now... Rear-motor cars are awesome, but mid-motor cars (till late) are pretty unique, but for something really rare, how about a FWD off-road buggy!

Inspiration...
The project was inspired by buggies like these...

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q207/piktophoto/ryuz_2.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q207/piktophoto/FF-2.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q207/piktophoto/FF-3.jpg
http://www93.sakura.ne.jp/~time-tunnel/image/event08-4-27/013.jpg

Always thought they looked extremely unusual in a cool way and according to what little information there is on the internet they didn't run too badly either. FWD supposedly offered advantages on loose tracks as they didn't spin out. Kyosho produced the Maxxum FF buggy and while I never drove one of those many didn't consider that a "race-inspired" design like some of these purpose built buggies.

Unlikely to ever get a chance to buy one of these so I decided to try my hand at building my own.

The plan...

When designing the car I wanted to do a few things differently though...

CG : Most of these cars I researched mounted the battery on a lower deck and all the electronics went on an upper deck. Possibly electronics were bigger back then... but with today's smaller electronics (and availability of saddle pack batteries) I wanted to try to position the electronics all on one deck for a lower center of gravity.

Steering : Many of the buggies also used direct steering setups like on cars like the Frog / M03. I suspect probably this was also because of space constraints. With about half length of the car being the rear wishbones, everything else needs to fit in the remaining space... we're talking gearbox, steering assembly, servo, esc, rx and battery! However, such steering setups typically result in a lot of bump steer, so I wanted to try to use a more established bellcrank type steering in this buggy.

Donor parts : I like the RB5/RT5 transmission so I knew that'd be my gearbox of choice. For the front suspension I decided to try to adopt something from a current 4WD buggy. The Tamiya DB01/501 suspension was chosen as I had significant spares for that and it was also metric. These arms have also earned a reputation of being strong so it seemed like a good choice. All the parts to mate the two together and the rest of the car would have to be scratchbuilt.

The Result

The whole buggy took about 2 weeks to design and build... and after all that it's still just a prototype. G10 was used for the main chassis to try ideas as I could always redesign and reproduce them in CF later. Some parts that needed more rigidity were cut from CF straight away while shocktowers, rear wishbones and other little odds and ends were made with Delrin.

I tried to incorporate as many tuning options as possible in my design as I really have NO IDEA what would work and what wouldn't - so for example the rear wheels alone have full camber and toe adjustment available, there are a variety of shock mounting positions, even the transmission height is adjustable...

Enough text though... here are some pics.

Oh... the shell is a donor too until I can decide on something nicer to use... but I don't think it looks half bad. :lol:

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_03.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_04.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_05.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_06.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_07.jpg

Now I need a name for the car... any suggestions? :)

Let me know what you think of this project.

Thanks!

[Jamie.T]

WOW, you have made a good job of making it, but im not so sure how it will handle on the track.

Let us know how it goes and maybe post a youtube clip too.

As for name, how about "crabull", for the front of a bull and rear of a crab.lol

Jamie.....

[c0sie]

WOW!

[mole2k]

I want one :D

I always fancied a go on one of those FF buggies, having driven an old yokomo(?) FF touring car a couple of times I always fancied a go at a FF buggy.

I also used to run my old TA-03F a few times without the rear belt/transmission and it was great fun outdoors.

[rcjunky]

looking good. The only thing with front wheel drive buggies, is with ROAR rules they count as 4wd, 2wd means only the rear wheels powered, so fwd counts as 4wd. Then again, I think you guys use a differant organisation, so your rules may be differant.

[coolcars782]

t'Is all good to run this car within the BRCA rules.

23. CONSTRUCTION RULES - GENERAL
23.1 Two wheel drive cars (2WD) are those having only one pair of driven wheels on the same axle. Either
the front or rear axle may be driven. Four wheel drive (4WD) cars are those having all four wheels driven.

Carl

[rocketrob]

very nice handiwork :thumbsup:

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_07.jpg

[johnnygibbon]

like it a lot. good work.
how about calling it the bulldog
cos all its powers up front and it kinda reminds me of one

[dodgydiy]

that is really nice and unique. i used to have a maxxum and it was actually quite good fun to drive, worked well on high grip and you could throw it around without any chance of spinning, but on low grip the traction and on power steering were awful, it just span and pushed strait on, just wish i had kept the damn thing....

[Funkymojo]

I tried Bloodclod's special home brew and all i can say it handles great! :thumbsup:

[BloodClod]

Thanks FunkyMojo!

Track was a tad wet today but the car handled very well indeed. Friend was kind enough to snap some pics so here they are - forgive the dirt! :lol:


http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2033_small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2056small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2059small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2066small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2072small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2088small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2090small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2140small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2153small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2159small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2165small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2170small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2178small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2305small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2317small.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/teinsports/BTP%2025%20Apr%2010/IMG_2561small.jpg

[Danosborne6661]

Awesome :thumbsup:

My Dad was thinking of making a car just like that too

[Funkymojo]

Wow Bloodclod, our friend is getting really good with his camera... :woot:

[sldmodels]

I got a name for it, but not a very good commerical name, just based on it's looks which wood be The WAF - Weird As F**k.

Looks like it handles well though. With the heavy stuff being at the front, does it make it easier to handle jumps? I often forget to reduce the power to make the nose point down for landing you see.

[peetbee]

Looks fantastic!

[BloodClod]

Performance Report

The car was tested and it really ran better than anyone expected. The other drivers today generally rated the track as "inconsistent" but towards the "loose" end of the spectrum.

Car on the track and off we go!

This buggy doesn't drive anything like a mid or rear motor car (expected of course...). It can be driven with the throttle on throughout the entire track - in fact, it performs best when driven that way. Going into the turn the rear end comes round nice and crisp and once the car is past the apex, throttle up again and it's off we go without a fuss.

While the other rear driven buggies had to contend with the rear ends losing traction and spinning out if the throttle was applied too quickly, this never happened with the FF. On the other hand, what the FF had to contend with was wheel spin. Punch the throttle too hard and the front wheels would spin and hunt for forward traction - but without losing it's heading or composure. This meant that on the straight and out of turns it takes a tad more time to get up to speed.

However, any time lost there is gained back by the speed it carries into the turn. With the throttle on throughout the turn and no fear of the rear end kicking loose, the car handles the technical sections of the track with ease. In fact, one "stick" only racer took my wheel radio and drove the car round amazingly well. His comment "I only need to think in the steering channel". :)

Now I was worried about the jump handling of the buggy given it's front weight bias, but it appears my fears were unfounded. The car was driven by at least 4 different drivers at today's run and within a lap or two everyone was tackling the jumps with relative ease. The suspension soaks up the landings well and with a tad more throttle the car flies level without the much feared nose-down attitude. On the downside, our track has a triple jump coming of a 180 turn that some 2WD buggies clear at a go. The FF didn't do this comfortably today not because of jumping attitudes, but more because the earlier wheelspin characteristic meant the buggy couldn't pick up enough speed to clear it. It *almost* did, but didn't actually do so. perhaps on a better day with better traction or perhaps with some setup to increase the front traction a tad this buggy will do the triples.

Everyone who drove the buggy had a big smile on their face... it was just unlike driving any rear-driven buggy and the experience was truly unique. :)

[BloodClod]

Some pics from my low end point-and-shoot camera... :)

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_08.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_09.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_10.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_11.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_12.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_13.jpg

[tymill]

This is definitely the coolest project I've seen in a very long time!:thumbsup:

Cheers,
Ty

[jeffrey]

i love it.
very very cool buggy.
grtz jeffrey

[JensK]

I have to make me one of these... Very good craftsmanship..:woot:

Would love to se a action video :thumbsup:

Making some drawings of my own as we speak...

[Funkymojo]

Bloodclod's home built buggies never fail to amaze me. First was his mid motor RB5x and now this and the best thing is that all his buggies work and handles really well. Lastly, he's a great driver too. BC you're my hero!! :lol::thumbsup:

[OldTimer]

Looks really cool :thumbsup: and refreshing to see something a bit different.

[Alfonzo]

We started to design a modern replacement for the FF a couple of years ago but never got it finished. But you did so congratulations! Looks great!:thumbsup:

[Rebelrc]

Looks excellent...but is it brca legal?

[BloodClod]

Thanks everyone for the very kind comments.

I'll post some more detailed pictures of the various parts of the project, the steering in particular is one of the more unusual setups, designed to fit a bellcrank system into a chassis where space is a premium. :lol:

I've also got a V2 chassis drawn up to give the front arms more "kick-up". It would have been cut from carbon fiber today too if not for a loose nut on my mill... messed up my tolerances and wasted good portion of costly CF plate. Oh well... there are days one should just know when to take a break. :)

Will try to get some videos taken at the next run...

BRCA legal? As I'm not from your neck of the woods I'm not so sure about BRCA rules - but as far as dimensions go I designed the car to be very very close to the RB5.

[OldTimer]

According to the brca rules it would be legal :)

23.1 Two wheel drive cars (2WD) are those having only one pair of driven wheels on the same axle. Either the front or rear axle may be driven.

[warped]

It would fail the BRCA control tyre rules for the rear axle.

[pita]

nice project, any video in action?

[OldTimer]

But the national entry from only advise minispikes and no part number, so you could use a slim 2wd front minispike maybe ?.

[warped]

The exact wording of the rules is slightly ambiguous, but.................................

The entry form refers to rear tyres, and schumacher tyres are labelled as front or rear on the packaging.

It would certainly be an interesting conversation with the scrutineer.

[MHeadling]

Lets see a Atomic Carbon CR2 FWD??!! :woot:

[Chrislong]

Very interesting and different, good work on making this car up! Id race one of these in the winter if produced! :thumbsup:

[BloodClod]

Hey I might just ask one of my friends to race this at the next race here, I think it would do very well!

Here are some pictures of the steering on my FF buggy...

Instead of the pivot point being in the middle of a bellcrank, I moved the pivot point right up front and this allows it to actually sit on the sides of the front gearbox, close to the outdrives. To achieve this, the bellcranks actually mount to the upper deck instead of the lower one. The bellcranks now pivot forward instead of backwards in a typical setup.

This took a long time to figure out how to get everything working freely but it's working!

Bellcranks mounted on bottom side of upper deck
http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_17.jpg

That's all the space there is between the servo and the front gearbox.
http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_18.jpg


Today I cut new chassis plates out of carbon fiber and while I was at it I decided to make some small changes. I changed the shape of the upper deck slightly to add strength to some areas (although I didn't really have any problems with breakage yet) and removed some area for aesthetics.

Biggest change to the bottom chassis is that I've modified it to give more front kickup. The hingepin mounting block used to be mounted on top of the lower deck but now it is sitting flush with the bottom of the upper deck. This is done via spacers which will also allow me to add or remove "kick-up" if I need it.

In case you're wondering, the hingepin blocks come from a DB-01. :)

Hingepin blocks now sit flush with chassis bottom to give more "kick up"
http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_15.jpg


Pic of everything mounted up in front.
http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_16.jpg

[BloodClod]

Doesn't everything look better when it's in carbon fiber? lol!

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_14.jpg

[Mr. Pink]

Very impressive build!
You might get copied...;)
Had also the same thoughts of a reversed rb5 about a year ago but the efforts were spent om my rb5 mid at that moment. Have you narrowed the DB-01 front? I still can not figure out how to get tha lazer-sp/fs front narrow enough to get within 250mm with wide rims mounted.

/Johannes

[rcjunky]

everything looks better with some cf and new tires, looks amazing

[mrspeedy]

Amazing job you've done there :thumbsup: looks the nuts ...

I'd be interested to see some more detail shots of the front and rear suspension hub bits .....

I started on a B4 mock up earlier this year but didn't see it through .... still got the bits tho ...

[ojoloco]

Doesn't everything look better when it's in carbon fiber? lol!

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_14.jpg

:woot::woot:

Even better now. Great work!!

I'd like to make something similar once i finish my 1/8th electric project :yawn:

[BloodClod]

Very impressive build!
You might get copied...;)
Had also the same thoughts of a reversed rb5 about a year ago but the efforts were spent om my rb5 mid at that moment. Have you narrowed the DB-01 front? I still can not figure out how to get tha lazer-sp/fs front narrow enough to get within 250mm with wide rims mounted.

/Johannes

lol! It would be interesting to see more FF buggies around - do build and share!

Yes, I have narrowed the DB-01 front end. It's done at the suspension blocks. Currently the front of the car car is running a Kyosho RB5 narrow hingepin block in front and DB01 blocks in the rear. The DB01 blocks as pictured are separate pieces so they are easily positioned.

In the end the car comes to a hair under 255mm wide in front from edge of tire to tire.

[bender]

Not sure of your local rules but i thought the ifmar standard was maximum 250mm wide?

Regardless, the project looks fantastic and once you have it all completely finished perhaps you might be able to sell a conversion kit?

I have an RB5 and the Durga parts are easy enough to get so I'd love to drive one :thumbsup:

[BloodClod]

Not sure of your local rules but i thought the ifmar standard was maximum 250mm wide?

Regardless, the project looks fantastic and once you have it all completely finished perhaps you might be able to sell a conversion kit?

I have an RB5 and the Durga parts are easy enough to get so I'd love to drive one :thumbsup:

I guess this buggy meets local rules as far as width is concerned. But that said, I'll take a look later... I have some ideas that should be easy enough to execute to shave off that 5mm or so from the width. :)

[JensK]

Would love to se a action video of this car on a track :thumbsup:

[BloodClod]

Re-cut the white delrin parts in black instead!

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_19.jpg

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_20.jpg

Hopefully a video to post soon!

[SHY]

Wow! Übercool! :woot:

I'd love to try one!

Name suggestion: "The FrontRunner"

[BloodClod]

Frontrunner is quite interesting!

Everyone's asking for a video so here you go!

In the vid the buggy is being driven by different drivers having a go at it. :)

xk2NaOM6VcU

Not too shabby?






In case youtube is giving errors playing here, you can view it direct on youtube here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk2NaOM6VcU).

[MHeadling]

I'm well impressed with how it goes!

Good work dude!:thumbsup:

[JensK]

Not shabby at all.. .I`m super impressed..
Thought it would nose-dive more on jumps, but obviously this isnt the case at all.. I`m in love with the concept and have to make me one for myself..:drool:

[rocketrob]

Frontrunner is quite interesting!

Everyone's asking for a video so here you go!

In the vid the buggy is being driven by different drivers having a go at it. :)

xk2NaOM6VcU

Looks like it gets around marvelously. :thumbsup:

[OldTimer]

Looks pretty good, and the black parts look a lot better :thumbsup:

I think i have found a project for the winter lol.

[ojoloco]

Nice video! It looks really good on the track, i can see this car starting a "fwd fever" here to forget about "mid" conversions :lol::lol:

[samd]

:thumbsup:Good work!:thumbsup:

[BloodClod]

Thanks guys, the weather's been decent the last two days so the car's done a few batts worth of laps on the track and been run by different guys. So far everyone thinks it's a blast to drive. The consensus at the track has always been "4WD is easier to start with than 2WD" but the guys who've tried the FF buggy think this is the easiest buggy to drive yet. One racer commented that even a 4WD will spin out on certain surfaces because the rear wheels are still "pushing" the car, but for a FF this doesn't happen.

So far the car has been the easiest to drive consistently around the track in a variety of conditions and I think that's it's huge advantage. Since there's no worry about the rear breaking loose, one just needs to concentrate on getting the line right to carry the most speed through the turns.

One other pleasant surprise is... the car cleared the triples today a couple of times! I initially thought that the wheelspin was causing problems for the car getting up to speed for the triples but now I'm pretty sure it just needs a bit more motor. :) It's currently running with a 10.5T but I'm going to try a 8.5T to see how it goes.

[foampervert]

Hiya folks,

I've just had the opportunity to drive the v2 version of bloodclod's creation....

The truth is, it drives so incredibly well, it's insane.

The traction today is loose and extremely rough. I was expecting the car to slide but it never did.

If anyone has driven a tamiya fwd mini on a high grip surface... it drives just like it...
Point where you want and peg it! Coast just before the turn to transfer weight forward and peg it immediately after to negotiate the turn.

What's there not to like?

Taking orders here!

I hear it weighs in at only 1400 grams.

[RS Concept]

Hi,

Congrat to your nice creation...:thumbsup:

I love FF cars,,, in my very early days I drived a FF tamiya,, was always fun.

The ability of your car is impressive!!!!!!!!!!

GUYS!!! Time to think about something new:thumbsup:

Hope youll kick some medals on the events

[j.m.]

Using a standard production rear suspension arm would be nice to see if you could come up with an appropriate rear hub system that allows you to adjust toe. Like the turnbuckle system on a predator or the other homebuilt pictured.

Camber would still be hard to adjust with this system, but it could possibly be done with shims under the arm mounts on the chassis.

Not sure if you caught this, but the HPI_Kogaff has a saddlepack configuration. The chassis also is much lower compared to the other cars because the rear arm mounts are so elevated from the lower deck.

How did you get enough clearance on the front steering to use the wider rear rims/tires?

Cool car!
Jon

[mro_racing aka Doorbell]

ive always wanted to make a fwd buggy but looks like the yokomo yrf2 sp touring car but never knew haw well it would really go but after seeing in the video haw well a front wheel drive buggy can go i might have 2 give it ago

[BloodClod]

Hi,

Congrat to your nice creation...:thumbsup:

I love FF cars,,, in my very early days I drived a FF tamiya,, was always fun.

The ability of your car is impressive!!!!!!!!!!

GUYS!!! Time to think about something new:thumbsup:

Hope youll kick some medals on the events

ive always wanted to make a fwd buggy but looks like the yokomo yrf2 sp touring car but never knew haw well it would really go but after seeing in the video haw well a front wheel drive buggy can go i might have 2 give it ago


Thanks guys - this project has been a lot of fun!

Please do build your own FF buggies and post them up - I guarantee you the drive will more than justify your time put in! :)

[BloodClod]

Using a standard production rear suspension arm would be nice to see if you could come up with an appropriate rear hub system that allows you to adjust toe. Like the turnbuckle system on a predator or the other homebuilt pictured.

Camber would still be hard to adjust with this system, but it could possibly be done with shims under the arm mounts on the chassis.

Not sure if you caught this, but the HPI_Kogaff has a saddlepack configuration. The chassis also is much lower compared to the other cars because the rear arm mounts are so elevated from the lower deck.

How did you get enough clearance on the front steering to use the wider rear rims/tires?

Cool car!
Jon

Thanks! I did think of a production arm but I really wanted to use the trailing arm for this project just to see how it would run. I think because of the unique characteristics of a FF buggy, a trailing arm would work better to retain traction and handle bumps. If nothing else, the runs so far suggest that a forward weight bias is key to forward traction on this car... and the very long trailing arms certainly ensure the rest of the weight is put far forward in the buggy.

Using the standard steering parts from the DB01/501 don't pose any clearance problems with the wider tires, the problem was more track width which had to be narrowed by moving the inner hingepin mounting positions closer to the center of the chassis.

[j.m.]

I'm saying use a standard arm FOR the trailing suspension setup, like the previously pictured homebrew.

I know the steering setup would be rediculously hard, but a mid-motor front wheel drive car would be awesome.

Jon

[SHY]

Looks great!

AFAIK front wheel drive is not legel according to EFRA rules though :thumbdown:

But should be BIG FUN for club racing though! :thumbsup:

How do you cut those delrin parts? CNC machine?

[Thomas P]

they have to rethink that rule...=)

[seankyew]

any updates on 'The New Physics'?

[BloodClod]

The car is now running with a 8.5T Tekin sensored motor and that's given it a boost in terms of pick up and speed - so much so that the buggy is now able to clear the triples on the track.

I find that tire selection is less crucial on a FF than on a rear wheel driven buggy. A good tire will give better forward bite but since the car won't spin out a worn tire still gets it round the track in a jiffy. Worn (or wrong) tires on my RWD will make a buggy near impossible to drive on the loose-medium tracks we run here.

Still getting more track time to get more accustomed to how to get the best lines out of the buggy - to cut the tightest lines my throttle finger has to adjust to a different style of driving.

[SHY]

Jonathan, I hereby pre-order an Atomic-Carbon FF conversion kit!!! With a bodyshell!

GET BUSY!!! :thumbsup:

[BloodClod]

Jonathan, I hereby pre-order an Atomic-Carbon FF conversion kit!!! With a bodyshell!

GET BUSY!!! :thumbsup:

Do I get any commission? :D lol!

[SHY]

Where do you but delrin from? And how do you cut it? CNC?

[BloodClod]

Where do you but delrin from? And how do you cut it? CNC?

I'm not from the UK but I get my Delrin and G10 from a local supplier of industrial materials. It's cut by a CNC-enabled Sherline mill. :)

[cheapo]

Awesome project! Reminds me of the late 80's when I built my own FWD buggy. Great job. :cool:

[kwik]

this is such an inspireing project !!

first of all, concratulations on the awsome looking and handeling car !! (predatoresque? :P)

i have decided to do 2 projects now, a 1/6th nitro onroad fwd car (using my dead schumacher big 6) and my A level DT project a mid motor, fwd buggy like this one, but with the weight still far forward...

as i said, great little car, you should be very proud !! :)

[BloodClod]

Thanks guys. As you can imagine this car continues to turn heads at the track both in terms of looks and handling too. It keeps up fine on high traction days, but it truly excels when things get dry and loose.

With some recent changes in our track layout, the only real area where it suffers a tad is when there is any need for a sudden burst of speed. We have this set of whoops on a table top coming right after a turn and with my Cougar I can just about jump these at a go with a burst of throttle up the jump. The FF Buggy doesn't accelerate as hard due to wheel spin and the design of the track doesn't allow it to carry enough speed through the turn to clear the whoops. Car is killer and more than makes up on the rest of the track though. Will have to practice some different lines... I may clear this yet! :)

FF Buggy received a shell makeover and clean-up too...

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/project/project_21.jpg

Standard "BloodClod" team colors (I'm not very imaginative... lol)

http://www.cool.per.sg/external_links/trf201/trf201_04.jpg

[Cooper]

shouldn't front wheel drive cars run in 4wd class ?

[johnnygibbon]

According to the brca rules it would be legal :)

23.1 Two wheel drive cars (2WD) are those having only one pair of driven wheels on the same axle. Either the front or rear axle may be driven.

brca says yes. im racing....
thanks blood clod this rules. i am awaiting my ff car as i speak. racing 2wd this sunday i hope.

[Cooper]

brca says yes. im racing....
thanks blood clod this rules. i am awaiting my ff car as i speak. racing 2wd this sunday i hope.

and EFRA? (I can't find it)

[Dufty07]

O MY GOD"!!!!!! WOW!!!!! EH!!!!!! ERRRMMMMMM!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!!! Looks very FUNKY.......NICE WORK DUDE:thumbsup:
BIG THUMBS UP FROM ME!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

[rcjunky]

It is considered 4wd with ROAR, but not with BRCA, not sure about EFRA

[AJ Roberts]

A very cool car, i love it :thumbsup:

[BloodClod]

Thanks guys, the car has been performing very well and I'm thinking of running it in an upcoming local race just to see how it stacks up. From the picture posted earlier some of you might have also spotted that it sports a new bumper that's pretty heavy duty... lol.

[tsan]

I'm thinking of running it in an upcoming local race just to see how it stacks up.

If/when you do, please post some vids. :thumbsup:

[rondoolaa]

wow what a cool car,
i was gunna say name it grasshopper as it looks like one but as a car is already called grasshopper, how about the dragonfly, as it looks like one of those too with the wing mount being the big tail ??

or how about transformer, as if you look at your 3rd pic down in the result on page 1 it looks like a transformer if you look sideways at the pic

[wrighty]

Was just thinking arfter reading this thread it needs a hydra drive system of a losi xx from the 90s this would probably help the traction ??

[BloodClod]

Was just thinking arfter reading this thread it needs a hydra drive system of a losi xx from the 90s this would probably help the traction ??

hmmm... I've no experience with the hydra drive although I know in theory how it works.

In terms of on track performance and "feel" how does the hydra drive do?

[wrighty]

i honestly carnt remember it was a long time ago

[SHY]

How is this baby doing? :wub

And when is the A-C conversion kit for the B4.1 coming??? :D

[grimidol]

viscos drive was it also called ? i have one of those in a draw lol

[adam lancia]

ViscoDrive was Schumacher's version of Losi's HydraDrive. I think they came out around the same time.

[dodgydiy]

viscodrive was basically a wet slipper, hydradrive was basically a vaned disk in a finned enclosure running in diff oil and seemed to work better, it was lighter too. it takes a lot of the kick away, just like a normal slipper but a lot more effectively. I had one on an old ultima with a stealth box in it for a while, you could just give it more stick without upsetting the car. might help a bit with your wheelspin as it would take away the initial punch which helps break traction

[Pablo668]

So basically they are a type of fluid coupling then, like in an Automatic transmission?

[2wdMod]

Yep. think torque converter that goes between the engine and trannsmission in a full size car.That's exactly what the fluid units were.

[Skidrow]

BloodClod,
The project looks very nice.Very good job.
Two questions:

-Why short front shocks?Is it due to space limitations?
-Do you find the bent front camber links holding up ok?

Again,thumbs up for taking up this project

Manolis

[BloodClod]

Thanks guys for the kind comments.

Apologies for the lack of updates - been involved in organizing a series of local buggy races and also a first vintage event coming in December - didn't have a lot of time to continue to develop ideas in this car.

I have run it a number of times and at a local race it once finished 2nd in the A Main too.

So far in it's current form it excels in tracks that are smooth but where traction is lacking - in these conditions a typical rear motor buggy struggles to keep from spinning out but a FF buggy pulls out of every corner without incident.

However, the greatest challenge for a FF buggy in my limited experience is wheelspin. The way the weight is distributed it's just a characteristic of a FF buggy that it fights for forward traction. That's why it excels on smooth tracks when the front tires get maximum contact to keep the car moving - a FF thrives on smooth lines that allow it to keep moving at maximum speed. Slow down, and it'll cost precious seconds to accelerate back to speed.

I've recently been working on a M05 mini rally car too and I've found a diff that's set as tight as possible (almost spool-like) to help the car in rough spots as it reduces the occurence of the diff unloading on rutted surfaces which rob the car of precious forward traction.

When time allows the next thing to do is to find a way to tighten up the diff as much as possible and to also raise the rear pivot point on the suspension so as to reduce weight transfer to the rear on acceleration.


BloodClod,
The project looks very nice.Very good job.
Two questions:

-Why short front shocks?Is it due to space limitations?
-Do you find the bent front camber links holding up ok?

Again,thumbs up for taking up this project

Manolis

Thank you Manolis. :)

Front short shocks are used because of space constraints - you are right. Any FF buggy design has to contend with a lot of stuff up front... steering, gearbox, slipper, suspension, etc... The short shocks were used along with long rodends to ensure the steering tie-rods do not hit anything throughout their full stroke.

Bent camber links are holding up fine. :)

[le_sam]

hello,

first, congratulations! nice work!:thumbsup:

i've an idea to increase the traction, i think...
may be a 4-gears transmission can help, to reverse the motor's rotation.
like in "top" mid-motor 2wd car.

bye!

[Ferret]

Actually I believe that a 4-gears transmission will decrease the traction of a FWD car.

The 4-gears transmission will cause more weight transfer to the rear (compared to a 3-gears transmission). Since the driving wheels are the front ones, rearward weight transfer will decrease traction rather than increase it (like in the case of rear driving wheels).

Avner.

[Fabs]

True if the motor was behind the front wheels but it's not...

[tymill]

True if the motor was behind the front wheels but it's not...

Remember that in this case, the motor is fixed rigidly to the rest of the car, so you've got to look at the whole car as a system when you're looking into moments, etc. Consider how a car pivots around its centre of gravity when adjusting a jump w/ the throttle - no matter where the motor or drive wheels are...

A 4-gear system basically lets the turning moment from an accelerating motor add up with the moment from the accelerating drive wheels, as opposed to partially counteracting it.

In either case, the wheels are the big players here - since they're massive and have a pretty big diameter with most of the mass around the edge.

And, the accelerating wheels are definitely working against you if you're front wheel drive, since the weight will transfer to the back since the moment will act on the centre of gravity of the whole car - which invariably is between the axles...

This brings to mind an idea.... since we've now got more power from our brushless motors than we can possibly use, how about building in some sort of counter-rotating flywheel that accelerates in an opposite rotation to the wheels? Hmmm...:eh?:

Cheers,
Ty

[le_sam]

This brings to mind an idea.... since we've now got more power from our brushless motors than we can possibly use, how about building in some sort of counter-rotating flywheel that accelerates in an opposite rotation to the wheels? Hmmm...:eh?:



crazy!:thumbsup:
or a kind of gyroscope, like in boats for exemple :
http://www.nauticexpo.fr/prod/seakeeper/stabilisateur-pour-navires-29412-242078.html
that's able to create the needed's forces i think!? :confused::D

bye, merry christmas!

[mro_racing aka Doorbell]

has the car been tryed on high grip astro ?:thumbsup:

[Tony Long]

Why did they stop making them?

[BloodClod]

has the car been tryed on high grip astro ?:thumbsup:

Nope - unfortunately no astro tracks where I'm at. :)

[Origineelreclamebord]

has the car been tryed on high grip astro ?:thumbsup:

I'm also curious about this! :)

Why did they stop making them because there was a few in 90's but then we have not seen one for 20 years or so

IFMAR (and ROAR) regulations specify that FWDs must be run in the 4WD class. This rule was put into effect in... the early 90s? when the FWDs had shown to be quite successful and became (more) popular. I'm not sure why the rule was created, I guess someone didn't like these buggies and was influencial enough to change something about their increase in popularity.

[jo90]

the only thing that buggy needs is a couple of small lexan mud guards along the trailing arm to stop so much dirt in the shocks...apart from that 100% awesome work, well done!

[BloodClod]

Can't believe it's been more than a decade since I built this buggy.

Taking it for a spin after a long hiatus... and for the first time on slippery wet astroturf too. :)

Hope you enjoy the video.

rx2cKazRxyE

[tymill]

Blast from the past! Awesome!

[AdrianH78]

Can't believe it's been more than a decade since I built this buggy.

Taking it for a spin after a long hiatus... and for the first time on slippery wet astroturf too. :)

Hope you enjoy the video.




Great car, and great little video!

[Origineelreclamebord]

Can't believe it's been more than a decade since I built this buggy.

Taking it for a spin after a long hiatus... and for the first time on slippery wet astroturf too. :)

Hope you enjoy the video.

rx2cKazRxyE


Your FWD build and video and all those years ago was a big part of what inspired me to try building my own FWD buggy too. It got me so hooked that I continued development and have since made two conversion kits for the public (ORB FF210 and ORB ForWarD) so that more people may enjoy FWD buggies :) So thanks for sharing your project, all those years ago and again in 2021! :thumbsup:

[BloodClod]

Your FWD build and video and all those years ago was a big part of what inspired me to try building my own FWD buggy too. It got me so hooked that I continued development and have since made two conversion kits for the public (ORB FF210 and ORB ForWarD) so that more people may enjoy FWD buggies :) So thanks for sharing your project, all those years ago and again in 2021! :thumbsup:

Thank you for your kind words. The ORB FF you've developed is truly brilliant!