Cougar Sv layshaft

[ian h]

Is it a good idea to glue in the needle pins to the layshaft before putting the o rings on. I ask because my first gearbox shredded when a pin came out!

[bigred5765]

i wouldnt

[sime46]

Could you use roll pins instead of the solid pin? A good tight fitting one? Saw a couple of cars had these pins coming out at the weekend. Mine seems fine so far. Not sure why these were coming out. Any ideas?

[cwp]

Where trying a thicker o ring.

[ian h]

Could you use roll pins instead of the solid pin? A good tight fitting one? Saw a couple of cars had these pins coming out at the weekend. Mine seems fine so far. Not sure why these were coming out. Any ideas?

My theory is that the original o rings are too soft and expand too much under the centrifugal force generated by the fast rotation hence the ring comes off or, expands sufficiently to allow the pin to fall out. Not 100% sure though.

[ian h]

i wouldnt

Why not Carl? Fair play to schuey for replacing my damaged parts this time ( which suggests to me that they know this could be an issue) but I doubt they would keep replacing parts in these circumstances.

[bigred5765]

what happens when you need to remove them, check pin edges make sure there smooth (rounded of )

[ian h]

what happens when you need to remove them, check pin edges make sure there smooth (rounded of )

The first pins I had were fine and so are the replacement pins I have. Was thinking of using loctite retaining compound which I have experience with in other applications at work. This would defo hold the pin during running but one sharp tap of a pin punch would release it if necessary.

[mikeyscott]

Steveb has had this issue too. So they replaced what bits?

[ian h]

Steveb has had this issue too. So they replaced what bits?

Idler gear, layshaft gear, 2 pins, 2 o rings, diff gear and gear box casings. Spoke direct to PB and he agreed to do this.

[Raul Garcia]

What I have used and let all US drivers in on is a external snap ring size of 7/16". It looks like the ring for the thrust bearing, but the ears face out, and obviously larger.

[moth898]

do you have a pic of the o-ring Raul?

[Lamar]

http://out2win.com/catalog/images/snapring.jpg

They're also known as circlips.

Thanks again Raul.

[sly]

I have had both o rings let go both with no damage, I had to run it for a race with all the o ring debris still there and no o ring. The originals are smaller than the replacement ones I have fitted thus they where under stress to start with.

[mikeyscott]

Have emailed Schumacher this morning and will go from there.

SteveB if he gets time (work pressures) will prob call Phil at Schumacher.

[Raul Garcia]

http://out2win.com/catalog/images/snapring.jpg

They're also known as circlips.

Thanks again Raul.

Thanks for the pic Lamar.

[mikeyscott]

Who makes these?

I'll be taking mine apart tonight and expect it to be the same :(

[nickhudson]

i think a better question would be to ask why there are drive pins inside the gearbox at all. i am sorry to say that, in my opinion, its a really poor design especially when there is potential for them coming loose and wrecking the gears. its a pity they didn't copy the B4/X6 gearbox style for this car - funnily enough there are no drive pins in those gearboxes - its almost like they knew what they were doing :woot::woot:

on second thoughts, maybe they will just fall out of the gap at the rear of the gearbox before causing any damage !

[mikeyscott]

I have wonder why the layshaft isn't one piece...

[Lamar]

on second thoughts, maybe they will just fall out of the gap at the rear of the gearbox before causing any damage !

lol

I have wonder why the layshaft isn't one piece...

It'd make a lot more sense,and are people really going to be changing the internal ratio that often? It'd still make more sense to just swap layshafts instead of disassemble/reassemble.

[mikeyscott]

You don't change the layshaft anyway for changing gearing I think, that's done outside the gearbox..

[ian h]

lol



It'd make a lot more sense,and are people really going to be changing the internal ratio that often? It'd still make more sense to just swap layshafts instead of disassemble/reassemble.

The layshaft and idler internally are not changed to alter ratio, this is done by changing the 2 gears external to the box ( see manual for reference). There is no reason why the internal part of the layshaft can't be 1 piece IMO.

[JustARcFan]

I'm going to glue the pins.
Like this I'm sure they don't come out and anymore!

I had this happening last weekend and the day was finished for me.

[ian h]

I'm going to glue the pins.
Like this I'm sure they don't come out and anymore!

I had this happening last weekend and the day was finished for me.

Exactly, I'm with you on this. I think schuey need to look at this design judging by the amount of people experiencing this problem. Come on Schuey give us a factory designed and tested fix!

[bigred5765]

cat sx has run this kind of idea for years without problems guys??

[nickhudson]

not in a 'sealed' gearbox though. and the fact that it has been used on the SX doesn't make it acceptable in this instance

[simoncrabb]

I just pulled my gearbox apart and my pins had moved a little, an o-ring was slightly raised, and it had been rubbing very slightly.

I've chosen to threadlock the pins in.

[ian h]

I just pulled my gearbox apart and my pins had moved a little, an o-ring was slightly raised, and it had been rubbing very slightly.

I've chosen to threadlock the pins in.

Wise choice I think, what's the worst that can happen, I can't see a reason for needing to remove the layshaft gear anyway.

[Raul Garcia]

Wise choice I think, what's the worst that can happen, I can't see a reason for needing to remove the layshaft gear anyway.

I guess my suggestion is not worth as much to the uk drivers as it was directly to the engineer @ Schumacher...

[mikeyscott]

Phil did mention it today when I spoke to him...

[eichkay]

What I have used and let all US drivers in on is a external snap ring size of 7/16". It looks like the ring for the thrust bearing, but the ears face out, and obviously larger.

I havn't had any issues yet but ive only used the car for one race meeting .. Yesterday i dropped in on a automotive shop and grabbed a couple of these 7/16" snap rings and will be installing them very soon prior to my next meeting.

Cheers for the tip Raul..

[ian h]

I guess my suggestion is not worth as much to the uk drivers as it was directly to the engineer @ Schumacher...

Good idea but I personally don't want to add another metal bit that could potentially cause damage in a sealed gearbox although it is very unlikely.

[Raul Garcia]

I havn't had any issues yet but ive only used the car for one race meeting .. Yesterday i dropped in on a automotive shop and grabbed a couple of these 7/16" snap rings and will be installing them very soon prior to my next meeting.

Cheers for the tip Raul..

Smart man...

[mikeyscott]

Need to look into this too, but I'm in the UK.

Is this the sort of thing?

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=21863

[Raul Garcia]

http://out2win.com/catalog/images/snapring.jpg

They're also known as circlips.

Thanks again Raul.

This is what it looks like it's 7/16".

[ian h]

Need to look into this too, but I'm in the UK.

Is this the sort of thing?

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=21863

If you need them I can get them, we use all American size stuff at work for our US built machines. Let me know if you need them and I can find out who our supplier is.

[nickhudson]

although i wouldn't fit one myself, if you want to try it, here is a link :-

http://www.modelfixings.co.uk/circlips.htm

you can get plenty of internal circlip spares while you're at it for rebuilding the diffs with their (un)user-friendly design of thrust race retention (and yes, i know the design was used in the CAT SX plus i remember them in my Axis TC from years ago - they were crap then too)

[mikeyscott]

although i wouldn't fit one myself, if you want to try it, here is a link :-

http://www.modelfixings.co.uk/circlips.htm

you can get plenty of internal circlip spares while you're at it for rebuilding the diffs with their (un)user-friendly design of thrust race retention (and yes, i know the design was used in the CAT SX plus i remember them in my Axis TC from years ago - they were crap then too)

Not had a problem with my SX or SV..

[Chillout47]

this happened to a couple of cars at the regional at Broxtowe on Sunday, one bloke blew up his gearbox, changed everything for the next round, and blew it up again. Both times it was the o-ring that gave way and the pin destroyed the box. He sold his car there and then for £175!!!!!

[Raul Garcia]

this happened to a couple of cars at the regional at Broxtowe on Sunday, one bloke blew up his gearbox, changed everything for the next round, and blew it up again. Both times it was the o-ring that gave way and the pin destroyed the box. He sold his car there and then for £175!!!!!
This is a easy and quick fix. And its PERMANENT. you will never need to replace them.

[mikeyscott]

If you need them I can get them, we use all American size stuff at work for our US built machines. Let me know if you need them and I can find out who our supplier is.

That'll be cool

[dbizzle5]

Is this the only size that will fit? Dont suppose you know if any metric size will fit?


This is what it looks like it's 7/16".

[kwiksi]

I don't find anything wrong with the current orings on the idler gear for the buggy.

[craigosh]

Could you use a tiny zip-tie round the groove instead? though i guess not enough clearence!

[ian h]

Anybody been having issues with the orings in the idler gears?
I got a 7/16 clip like Raul said as a precaution. Upon installing it I found that it was loose fitting and there was a gap at the open end that looked like the pin can still come out. The pins felt snug in there and the oring looked fine and didn't seem too soft so back on it went. I'm going to the hardware store and am gonna pick up some other orings. Maybe I can find some that aren't as soft? Don't find anything wrong with the current ones though.
What motor are you running, I'm running 7.5 23/78 gearing. Since using retaining compound on the pins I have had no issues. I gave the car about an hour of track time yesterday and upon inspection found one o ring destroyed but the pin well and truly in place:thumbsup:. transmission is really smooth too.:thumbsup:

[mikeyscott]

What motor are you running, I'm running 7.5 23/78 gearing. Since using retaining compound on the pins I have had no issues. I gave the car about an hour of track time yesterday and upon inspection found one o ring destroyed but the pin well and truly in place:thumbsup:. transmission is really smooth too.:thumbsup:

What compound did you use?

I think it may only be affecting those that are running 7.5 and 6.5 motors? I'm running an 8.5

[kwiksi]

I ran a few packs in front of my house with a 9.5. Giving it full throttle blasts and hard braking on high grip asphalt....I hate traction rolling. Purposely did this after readjusting the diff after it slipped and putting the orings back on.

[MattW]

I'm running 6.5 in mine, and have had no issues at all - built as kit.

[ian h]

What compound did you use?

I think it may only be affecting those that are running 7.5 and 6.5 motors? I'm running an 8.5

Loctite retaining compound 648

[Albertini]

Took a look at my gearbox today after a practice on Sunday of 3-4 practice packs and one of the o-rings holding the pin in place is pushed right up and has been rubbing on something. (Running an 8.5 by the way)
The o-rings still in one piece, just, but I reckon one more run would have finished it off.
Still got a tight spot, still got a gap in the gearbox housings, will new housings fix this now? Was it a snag with the first housings only?

I don't mind buying some more housings if they'll cure the issue and I guess I'll just loctite the pins in place. ( But hey, I'd rather be sent them for free:D)

I'm not whinging, I love this car, I just want to put right some of its snags.

[fastinfastout]

what if you double up on the oring?

[fastinfastout]

Could you use a tiny zip-tie round the groove instead? though i guess not enough clearence!
thats an idea:thumbsup:

[lochness42]

heatshrink like on CVDs?

[fastinfastout]

heatshrink like on CVDs?
dont think that is possible with the schumachers cvd's design

[JustARcFan]

Did a test today with the pins glued and everything is perfect.

Smooth diff and gearbox :thumbsup:

[lochness42]

dont think that is possible with the schumachers cvd's design

Aren't we talking about layshaft? I mean use heatshrink instead of o-ring on pin, or under o-ring.
And of course this won't work on schueys dogbones, that's something that you can use only on CVDs or double joint CVDs

[ian h]

That'll be cool

Pm sent

[ian h]

Is this the only size that will fit? Dont suppose you know if any metric size will fit?

11mm, fraction smaller than7/16" which could be a good thing if you plan to go this route.

[mikeyscott]

Noticed that people are putting grease on the gears (gear grease) could this also be causing probs?

[slow bob]

i dont think the gear grease would be a problem as my o rings have disintagrated and i havent used the grease

if your o rings havent gone yet you need to glue your pins in or find some other way to retain the pins as the o rings will fail eventualy ..

[mikeyscott]

Got an important meeting next weekend so I'll be having a good long look etc. May even just run the SX instead whilst some of the SV issues get resolved.

[Albertini]

Noticed that people are putting grease on the gears (gear grease) could this also be causing probs?

Didn't grease mine and the gears have a fine black dust on them, assuming its from the shaved o-ring. Theres a picture in the quality issues thread.
Hopefully with a bit of threadlock or glue and new rings all will be well.

[ian h]

Another disaster whilst track testing today, the lay shaft gear completely stripped!!!!! The pins and o rings are still where they should be and the metal idler looks ok. Will post pics later. Can't work out what caused this, any ideas??????

[slow bob]

As the layshaft spun the pins moved out of the gear but still behind the o ring, snaged on the inside of the gearbox stripping the gear ???

then when the power stoped the pins are pushed back into the layshaft by the o ring >>???

is it totaly striped or just in one place :confused:

[ian h]

As the layshaft spun the pins moved out of the gear but still behind the o ring, snaged on the inside of the gearbox stripping the gear ???

then when the power stoped the pins are pushed back into the layshaft by the o ring >>???

is it totaly striped or just in one place :confused:

The pins are held in using retaining compound, they have definately not moved. The layshaft gear is now smooth all the way round, so yes it is completely stripped.

[mikeyscott]

The pins are held in using retaining compound, they have definately not moved. The layshaft gear is now smooth all the way round, so yes it is completely stripped.

Same as one of the pics from the EPR regional.. Mmm what now.

[phil c]

Another disaster whilst track testing today, the lay shaft gear completely stripped!!!!! The pins and o rings are still where they should be and the metal idler looks ok. Will post pics later. Can't work out what caused this, any ideas??????
i read that some people were filing down the cogs to make the box smoother , did you do this ? if so did you maybe file to much off ?

[sime46]

Slipper too tight?

[mikeyscott]

Slipper too tight?

I have thought that too.

[shark]

You would think you should be able to run the slipper tight , the gear box should handle that !!

[kwiksi]

I lighty lubed my gears. No issues after a full race day with a 9.5.:thumbsup:

[ian h]

i read that some people were filing down the cogs to make the box smoother , did you do this ? if so did you maybe file to much off ?

No filing here. As for the slipper it seemed ok, slipping slightly under inital load.

[ian h]

Another disaster whilst track testing today, the lay shaft gear completely stripped!!!!! The pins and o rings are still where they should be and the metal idler looks ok. Will post pics later. Can't work out what caused this, any ideas??????
13935


Sorry for the quality,best I could do at work with iphone

[eichkay]

Anybody been having issues with the orings in the idler gears?
I got a 7/16 clip like Raul said as a precaution. Upon installing it I found that it was loose fitting and there was a gap at the open end that looked like the pin can still come out. The pins felt snug in there and the oring looked fine and didn't seem too soft so back on it went. I'm going to the hardware store and am gonna pick up some other orings. Maybe I can find some that aren't as soft? Don't find anything wrong with the current ones though.

I also found the 7/16" clip to big and put the o-ring back on .. but i after putting the car back together i thought it would have been smart to measure the oring area on the gear to get the correct size of clip needed.

[ian h]

I also found the 7/16" clip to big and put the o-ring back on .. but i after putting the car back together i thought it would have been smart to measure the oring area on the gear to get the correct size of clip needed.
Just measured the groove on the one I took out, it is exactly 10mm or 0.400" which is actually in between 3/8" and & 7/16"(which is slightly over 11mm) so if you wanted to go this route 10mm metric circlip is the way to go.

[Raul Garcia]

Heres my new tranny. I like it alot.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/RaulGarcia123/th_MAH01517.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/RaulGarcia123/?action=view&current=MAH01517.flv)

[moth898]

What did you change Raul?

[Raul Garcia]

What did you change Raul?
New gears within the transmission, got them from Schumacher yesterday. Their customer service is AMAZING!...:thumbsup:

[ian h]

New gears within the transmission, got them from Schumacher yesterday. Their customer service is AMAZING!...:thumbsup:

What happened to the original ones?

[Raul Garcia]

What happened to the original ones?
I was told to use them..;)

[mikeyscott]

I was told to use them..;)

Ooo I'll have a word with the team on Sunday. Tell us more...

[Raul Garcia]

Ooo I'll have a word with the team on Sunday. Tell us more...
I think the video speaks for itself.

[mikeyscott]

Using my iPhone ATM. Time to kick the Mrs off the laptop!

[Raul Garcia]

Yeah my Iphone doesnt like the link either. Sorry.

[eichkay]

looks he biz raul... wonder when the rest of us will be allowed them

[Raul Garcia]

If you have apparent issue feel free to contact Schumacher. They will help you out.

[Aran]

Don't know if anyone had this. But got my cougar and i'm having trouble assembling the layshaft it's like the holes for the pins are a fraction too apart.

Is it susposed to be like this? Cause I can't get the second pin in :( :cry:

[bigred5765]

take a look make sure you have the plastic cog on the shaft the right way around, take a picture and post it up

[Aran]

yeah took one just now, the pin on the left is in but of the right hand side the hole for the pin is slightly out of line and the pin will just not go in:thumbdown::

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff190/Aran91/S6300865.jpg

[ian h]

Looks like the hole centres on that layshaft are slightly out alright. ring schuey tech support tomorrow.

[Aran]

rang them this morning and they are sending me a new layshaft and cog, could be either of them that are out of line.

thanks