Turkish GP..dont read if you haven't seen it. :)

[telboy]

We've been discussing the GP here and the topic of who was at fault on sunday.

Personally I think it was Vettels fault, I think that he thought he was past Webber and pulled across...causing the accident.

How Horner thought that Webber didn't leave Vettel enough room I don't know. He was pretty much through so clearly had enough room, he just didn't use his brain when moving across.

Horner deffo has a thing for Vettel, and so obviously is on his side.

Excellent race though, not seen 4 car that close for the whole race for years. This year is deffinately livening up!! :)

[Rich D]

We've been discussing the GP here and the topic of who was at fault on sunday.

Personally I think it was Vettels fault, I think that he thought he was past Webber and pulled across...causing the accident.

How Horner thought that Webber didn't leave Vettel enough room I don't know. He was pretty much through so clearly had enough room, he just didn't use his brain when moving across.

Horner deffo has a thing for Vettel, and so obviously is on his side.

Excellent race though, not seen 4 car that close for the whole race for years. This year is deffinately livening up!! :)

Agree with you Tel. Webber held his line and left plenty of room. Short of rolling out a red carpet for Vettel to overtake he couldnt of done much more to avoid it ! When trying to get on the line for the upcoming bend its obvious from the video that Vettel drove hard into the side of Webber ! :confused:

Webber deserved to be leading - had no moral obligation to move over for his team mate. Served him right IMO

I thought it was more amusing watching Button trying to overtake Hamilton after they were both told to slow to save fuel ! Its pretty obvious that theres no love lost between those two i reckon !

[Body Paint]

I don't actually agree that the blame should lay wholey on Vettel, he pulled a clean move and there is no way Webber was going to block him. Any team mate worth a toss would have moved across and had a stab back on the next corner, typical Webber egotystical maniac if you ask me. You wanna see how it should have been done watch Lewis and Jenson a few laps later.

[dom-dogger]

if you watch the replay you can see webber moving across to let vettel through, twas vettels fault all the way.

[MatJohnson]

Don't like webber, he's a danger on track, but, you can see who the team clearly see as their number one.

[telboy]

Vettel just thought he'd got the room to move across.

He 'assumed'......and we all know what assume does!?



The Mclaren duel was ace, and I did think at one point (turn 1) that hamilton was going to drive into the side of Button and hand the victory back to Webber! :woot:

...and we all now know what 'Fuel is critical' means in the Mclaren camp don't we!:p

[bigoggy]

100% vettel's fault

[Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson]

I don't actually agree that the blame should lay wholey on Vettel, he pulled a clean move and there is no way Webber was going to block him. Any team mate worth a toss would have moved across and had a stab back on the next corner, typical Webber egotystical maniac if you ask me. You wanna see how it should have been done watch Lewis and Jenson a few laps later.

Team mate or not, they are still racing for their OWN championship and i believe going into this race they were level on points (i maybe wrong) but i don't think anybody would just slide over and say "here you go" and webber didn't have a go at blocking because he has respect for his team mate.

Personally i think it was Vettel's fault, if anybody was to blame for not giving a toss about there team mate its vettel. He could have waited for a better place to pass webber. He just didn't seem to have any respect for webber. You don't see webber slamming into the side of vettel.

Even martin Brundle said he had more than enough room, he had position for the corner, why risk the move.

[plod]

I see it as six and half a dozen

Yes vettel moved over, but to me, vettel got by with webber going slower, had his nose in front, and maybe I saw something else, but I thought webber tried to squeeze him onto the grass, and vettel movrd it over, to get webber to move over to prevent this, and webber was having none of it, and took vettel out

[Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4wM-WPHpnI&feature=related

48 seconds in...vettel swerve's into webber plain as day.

[sime46]

Vettel seems desperate to beat Webber right now. I'm not a fan of Webbers driving generally but, as previously stated all that was left to do was put out the red carpet and buntin. Anyway, what the hell was up with Lewis on the podium? He won but sush a sour face. Was it cos Button gave him a late scare? Surely he'd rellish the chance of some wheel to wheel with Jens? Highlight of a great race I thought. As Tel said, season is looking very good. :thumbsup:

[Chequered Flag Racing]

Vettel half car'ed Webber so was in front :thumbsup:

but he pulled right on Webber hoping it was clear to do so, blind spot? and caused the crash :thumbdown:

Webber should maybe have yielded as he had been cleanly passed and waited a corner or two or tried later in the race

wonder if the FIA will look into it?

[Rich D]

Vettel seems desperate to beat Webber right now. I'm not a fan of Webbers driving generally but, as previously stated all that was left to do was put out the red carpet and buntin. Anyway, what the hell was up with Lewis on the podium? He won but sush a sour face. Was it cos Button gave him a late scare? Surely he'd rellish the chance of some wheel to wheel with Jens? Highlight of a great race I thought. As Tel said, season is looking very good. :thumbsup:

I suspect that Hamilton was expecting the finish order to be as is. If you were on track and got told to slow down with a footnote that your team mate had been told the same then you wouldnt expect him to have a go at overtaking you. Jenson seems like the nicer guy of the two when interviewed IMO. Whats with Lewis` daft goaty beard too :lol: ?

I suppose if Nicole :drool: was my Mrs and she insisted i had a goatie then id` grow one too ;)

[Nige]

[QUOTE=Chequered Flag Racing;382193]

Webber should maybe have yielded as he had been cleanly passed and waited a corner or two or tried later in the race [QUOTE]


If Webber had yielded it would have shown a weakness, by not moving it shows strength in character and next time Vettel will think twice making a pass. I still think Vettel is the better driver, but good on Webber for not letting Vettel walk all over him.

[neiloliver]

Nicole should be stood in front of the car before the race holding the flag...

Vettels fault all the way..

[Col]

IMO the actual crash was Vettels fault, but it's not as simple as that. Webber's car was in fuel save mode and was substantially slower as a result, allowing Vettel to get alongside so easily, whereas Vettel had another lap before his needed to do the same. In that lap he would have pulled a lead of several seconds thus allowing him to win the race easily.
Having said all that this season is shaping up to be great!

p.s. Nice work on the thread title, Tel

[Richard Lowe]

IMO it was mostly Vettel's fault, but could have been avoided by Webber if he'd thought a bit quicker. Looking at how Vettel came steaming in on a very dirty part of the track there was no way he was going to make the apex, if I were Webber I'd have pulled back onto line, got it slowed down and tried to cut back under Vettel on the exit.
Webber left just enough space on the inside but squeezed Vettel too much, Vettell would have slid into the side of Webber as it squirmed under brakes anyway on that part of the track even if he had tried to stay on the inside.

Pair of muppets both of them!

[BagofSkill]

100% Vettels fault. And what's more, team favoritism is now exposed. The last time Webber gave Vettel enough courtessy room to move it cost him the Maysian GP win. As the leader of the WC and the leader of the race Webber should have had a bit more respect from the team. Sending him into fuel saving a lap before Vettel is a bit naff.
And Webber clearly left enough room, Vettel turned into him to try and make more/force Webber off/show who's boss and Webber didn't take it. It's not a question of reaction time. Vettles manouvre was far too violent. It was almost like a tantrum for mine. Had they not been team mates there's no doubt Vettel would be up infront of the stewards had he done that to any other car. Horner coming out saying it's 50/50 and Webber should have made room is basically saying he wanted Vettel to go on and win. Webber is also now clearly under Vettels skin. And although it can change in a race Vettel is now 5th in the WC with Webber leading, and with McLaren on thier heals, Red Bull better sort out thier priorities quickly!

[Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson]

100% Vettels fault. And what's more, team favoritism is now exposed. The last time Webber gave Vettel enough courtessy room to move it cost him the Maysian GP win. As the leader of the WC and the leader of the race Webber should have had a bit more respect from the team. Sending him into fuel saving a lap before Vettel is a bit naff.
And Webber clearly left enough room, Vettel turned into him to try and make more/force Webber off/show who's boss and Webber didn't take it. It's not a question of reaction time. Vettles manouvre was far too violent. It was almost like a tantrum for mine. Had they not been team mates there's no doubt Vettel would be up infront of the stewards had he done that to any other car. Horner coming out saying it's 50/50 and Webber should have made room is basically saying he wanted Vettel to go on and win. Webber is also now clearly under Vettels skin. And although it can change in a race Vettel is now 5th in the WC with Webber leading, and with McLaren on thier heals, Red Bull better sort out thier priorities quickly!

Could'nt have put it better myself :thumbsup:

[DCM]

I think the Team must take a portion of the blame here, for not controlling their drivers more, as for the actual incident, Vettel veered right and made the collision, Webber could of moved over, but he didn't have to.

So if you want it black and white, as an accident, Vettel caused it.

As a race, Webber should of moved over a little and did what Hamilton done, forced it round 12, 13 and 14 then taken it up with the Team after. They both lost and both the McLarens won.

[reg]

it does show that they dont get on,racers have been in the same position many times,the person on the inside(vett)would eather stay there and just block the inside line at the apex of the corner,or as there was plenty of time befor the corner,move over slowly,giving the other driver a chance to move or cut back on the inside by late braking,webber just held the racing line,hoping to force vett to out brake himself on the dirt and over shoot the corner,

[dave g]

does make you wonder if horner had called for webber to go into fuel saving mode just so vettel could pass him..horner has liar written all over his face.

[DCM]

does make you wonder if horner had called for webber to go into fuel saving mode just so vettel could pass him..horner has liar written all over his face.

I agree, makes you wonder about the rumours about Webber moving at the end of the season aren't wrong.

[reg]

I agree, makes you wonder about the rumours about Webber moving at the end of the season aren't wrong.

i think the same thing happend with button and lewis but button thought sod that im off:woot:

[Alfonzo]

I thought it was Vettel, although to be honest racing that close at those sort of speeds with that poor a visibility, it's amazing we don't see more incidents like this. What about Alonzo overtaking that Russian dude, and giving him a puncture in the process? :woot: You wouldn't be happy with that!

Brilliant season. Looking forward to seeing more of Hamilton doing his thing, he's great to watch on the track.

[DCM]

to be honest, they are paid enough that their spacial awareness should be top notch!!

[telboy]

Agree. I just think Vettel thought the track at the side of him was clear. Assuming that Webber had moved onto the racing line for the corner.

I've followed Webber since his Formula Ford days, and was glad to see him in F1 especially now that he has a competetive car.
I also agree that Red Bull need to start sorting stuff out. Midpoint in the season is coming up and Webber is leading the championship, but with the new points system, things can change SOOO quickly. It only takes a mechanical failure for Webber and a win for Vettel, and things are back level. Having the 25 points for a win is going to make this chamionship got to the wire for deffo. But by mid point or three quarter point at least, the teams need to be favouring a driver for the title.....otherwise this could happen again, removing them both from the running.
I just think Red Bull have made it clear already who they are favouring.
But to be honest, I think Webber could end up being the most consistent of the two. Vettel seem to be a bit too keen to throw races away in high pressure situations.

Don't get me wrong I like Vettel too, but he just seems a bit too random with his action on track. It sometimes seem all or nothing.

[dave g]

as someone once said..assumption is the mother of all f*** ups :)

[qatmix]

Vettel was in the wrong, he tried a similar move earlier in the race to hamilton. I have to admit, the most 'wrong' thing about it all was the team hugging Vettel after the incident.. Shows which camp they are in.

[telboy]

...also makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'.....and he sure did that! lol :thumbsup:

[SlowOne]

Blimey, I didn't realise I was amongst people who knew all these drivers and Christian Horner so well they could tell me what they were feeling, how they behave and whether they lie or not!! :rolleyes: I hope an outsiders contribution is welcome...:p

I think that Vettel caused that crash, and that Button decided that he didn't want a crash, and backed out of it in Turn 1. To me that is a difference between someone with enough nous and experience to know which battles to fight, and which not to fight, in order to win the war.

If we go back to similar fights in the past, we find that Alain Prost (Suzuka 1989) had decided he wasn't going to give way to every forceful move by Senna, so just turned in at the chicane when Senna came up the inside from somewhere in the next postcode! Mansell and Piquet - the hot-headed Brummie threw it all away in Suzuka '87 trying for a pole position he didn't need, crashed, and was out for the rest of the season handing the title to the hated Piquet.

The car and body language of Weber suggests to me that he already knew he wasn't an equal in Red Bull, so when Vettel comes alongside he does a Prost - keeps his line, makes Vettel do the work. Webers's clean whatever happens!

Hamilton is, I think, smarting from being outdone by a driver with more nous and experience. It's hard to see how Button comes to pass him, but having done it, Hamilton seems to stop at nothing to get back. Come Turn 1, Hamilton is going to get through, and Button seems to know it. My guess is that Hamilton thought (as did lots of people, including me) he would hand Button his arse on a plate - hasn't happened! Am I the only one who thinks Hamilton is high-maintenance, and Button not, for the McLaren team?

Anyway, it's something we can talk about by the water cooler!! More please!! :thumbsup:

[dave g]

did you not see the interview with horner then?

[DCM]

If I were Webber, I would be sticking two fingers up to Team Orders

[mdb_75]

Hamilton is, I think, smarting from being outdone by a driver with more nous and experience. It's hard to see how Button comes to pass him, but having done it, Hamilton seems to stop at nothing to get back. Come Turn 1, Hamilton is going to get through, and Button seems to know it. My guess is that Hamilton thought (as did lots of people, including me) he would hand Button his arse on a plate - hasn't happened!



The thing is Hamilton was told to save fuel and that both cars were the same -Button had to save fuel too. Whether or not they needed to save fuel or whether it was code for -stay as you are and don't push I don't know!

I think that as far as Hamilton was concerned they were just cruising to the finish as they were, but Button decided otherwise. He took Hamilton by surprise -as it would do if you'd been told both cars had to slow down! I think Hamilton saw it as a stab in the back by his team mate Button. That's why he took the place straight back as soon as he could and why there was no celebrating going on after the chequered flag in the car or at anytime before they were on the podium!

Did you hear just before they went out on the podium Hamilton asking Button what he had been told about saving fuel and Lewis stopped when he saw the cameras were there?!!

It was a dirty trick by Button if you ask me! :lol:

[DCM]

I do think Button's driving style makes his tyres last longer and in doing so, uses less fuel to.

[MattW]

Save fuel doesn't necessarily mean don't pass. To save fuel you would need to turn the engine down. Assuming that the engine had been turned down, that doesn't stop you passing someone. If both engines are turned down to the same level, if the guy behind gets a toe, then he could still pass.

[Alfonzo]

I believe what happened was Hamilton was told to go to fuel save, and was under the impression from his engineer that Button was in the same position, but 'twas not the case and past he came! Love it. Fair play to Hamilton, didn't hang around claiming it back.

[DCM]

Button and Hamilton have gone up in my expectations after Turkey, clean fighters, going wheel to wheel, Button being opportunistic and forceful, Hamilton having the brains and skill to keep his car in the right position to get the move on turn 1, I think Whitmarsh will have as much hair as Ron Dennis by the end of the season!!

[Alfonzo]

Yeah, reckon the prospect of them 'doing a Redbull' must have knocked a couple of years off him!

[telboy]

I think all of this 'saving fuel' rubbish is a load of crap.

They're supposed to be fuelled to the end?! no?
Understandibly they want the cars to be as light as possible. But surely if you put a little bit more fuel in, then you can run the whole race with the engine turned up! Thus, being able to race flat out for the whole race!...and not have to slow down at a time when others could make a pass at the end of the race.

The FIA should make them run with the tanks 'over-full' so as to stop any 'hidden' team orders like 'Fuel critical', which we all know meant 'slow down and stop fighting'.:thumbdown:

Basically they will never stop team orders as it will all be done in the board room before the race.
Sure I heard Horner mention a little 'agreement' they have at Red Bull about who ever leads after the pitstops, the order stays the same to the end. Did anyone else hear that a couple of races ago?

[twisty]

It was a racing incident,i don`t think either should be reprimanded,everyone wants to see close racing,it doesn`t get much closer than that hahaha! [shouldn`t laugh really but anyway]
Maybe they should be fitted with big rubber bumpers :thumbsup:

[Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson]

Yes i did!

[SlowOne]

I think all of this 'saving fuel' rubbish is a load of crap.

They're supposed to be fuelled to the end?! no?
Understandibly they want the cars to be as light as possible. But surely if you put a little bit more fuel in, then you can run the whole race with the engine turned up! Thus, being able to race flat out for the whole race!...and not have to slow down at a time when others could make a pass at the end of the race.Every lap's-worth of fuel costs 1/10th of a second. Over the Turkish GP that's 5.8 seconds - a difference of first or fourth for those front four cars (without the crash!!). In Oz they fuelled the cars with about 165kg of fuel, and they ran flat out all race. By Turkey, they had 155kg of fuel, because that makes them faster over the race distance. Saving fuel isn't rubbish, it is part of the sport now, as it was before they had re-fuelling.

If you tell them to have full tanks, they'll just turn the engines up and use more fuel to make up the speed they need to overcome the weight, making them marginal on fuel by the end of the race. We're just back where we were 20 years ago, only this time we actually know what's going on because of the radios, and they have the technology to turn down the wick.

If you don't like this, best choose another sport to watch, as it's not going away any time soon!! ;)

[BagofSkill]

Actually, on average a lap of fuel costs a bit over a tenth in qualifying, which is ofen critical for grid position. And with how hard overtaking is is important to get as high up the grid as you can.

But at the start of the race when you're fuel up to 160kg, each extra lap on full power costs a lot more laptime. Turning the engine down might cost 0.1-0.2 per lap, but then don't forget that the engine have to last 4 races these days, so you can't just go around running full power all the time. So if you know you can't run full power all race every race, and you know when you turn it down you save fuel, you see how it works hand in hand.

The other note about the turkey rae in particular was that unlike usual, these 4 guys were just about nose to tail (for the first 40 laps) so the didn't have time to relax and save the engine/fuel like they normally would when the leads is comfortable and the field is spread out, which is why they ran harder longer and then turning the engine down at the end became priority for both RB and McLaren.