Weight

[STEWART]

How much of a difference do you think weight really makes? I just recently weighed my B4 and it was 1670g or 60oz should i be concerend?:confused:

[Northy]

Can 'o' worms.

I think weight matters a lot, as does any other professional racing series. Others don't.

G

[Richard Lowe]

Yep, weight is a bad thing IMO. Adding weight means either the setup is wrong or the car's design is wrong.

[Lee Martin]

how do you wrk tht out thn?

[jimmy]

Weight is ace, give me MORE lead!

[Lee Martin]

indeed!!!!

and having to put weight in a car allows you to put it where its needed/wanted for the best performance

[spenner]

One thing i always found years ago was if you ran Associated then you added weight to your liking, i remember Dave Duggan filled the whole chassis on a B3 with weight. He qualified 2nd or something at Worksop with it.

In touring cars you used to cut and file away as much to lose the weight.

If you looked at most of the top 20 B4's, i would say 15 of them have added weight somewhere in the car.
Not everyone's liking but i found it makes the car more stable mid corner.

[Richard Lowe]

how do you wrk tht out thn?
Adding weight to change the weight distribution will change the balance of the car, at the expense of reduced corner speed due to just having more weight to haul about. Generally tires will produce more grip if they have a heavier car sat on them but it's more than offset by having to change the direction of the extra weight.
When do you see full sized cars adding ballast to increase grip? The only reason it's used in WRC and F1 cars is because they have to use it to get upto the minimum weight limits.

If you are adding weight to a car to make it better over bumps then the suspension setup is wrong, it makes a lot more sense to match the suspension setup to the weight of the car instead of increasing the weight of the car to match the suspension for the reasons above ;)

and having to put weight in a car allows you to put it where its needed/wanted for the best performance
True, but only upto the minimum weight limit, once you go over it you are only making the car slower than it could be.

[Lee Martin]

i can see your point....but big cars need the power to weight our little ones can be way way way over powered anyway, therefore allowing us to be able to aid handle by adding weight

[Richard Lowe]

Agreed about the straight line performance, but the physics of it are still the same for the corners :)

[Swiss]

Adding weight to change the weight distribution will change the balance of the car, at the expense of reduced corner speed due to just having more weight to haul about. Generally tires will produce more grip if they have a heavier car sat on them but it's more than offset by having to change the direction of the extra weight.
When do you see full sized cars adding ballast to increase grip? The only reason it's used in WRC and F1 cars is because they have to use it to get upto the minimum weight limits.

If you are adding weight to a car to make it better over bumps then the suspension setup is wrong, it makes a lot more sense to match the suspension setup to the weight of the car instead of increasing the weight of the car to match the suspension for the reasons above ;)



True, but only upto the minimum weight limit, once you go over it you are only making the car slower than it could be.


Surely the change of direction comment will only be relevant if the wheight is at the extreme edges of the car.... not down the centre?

Also as I understood it, F1 cars are made as light as possible so the can ballas the car out... e.g. putting weight in the relevant places to tune the car?

[Richard Lowe]

Surely the change of direction comment will only be relevant if the wheight is at the extreme edges of the car.... not down the centre?
By direction change I mean the whole weight of the car going round a corner, the position of the weight on the car (to the side or in the centre like you said) will change how quickly the chassis can react in roll, which is a different thing entirely ;)

Also as I understood it, F1 cars are made as light as possible so the can ballas the car out... e.g. putting weight in the relevant places to tune the car?
Yeah thats right adding weight is fine to change the balance of the car, but as soon as you go over the minimum weight limit you are potentially slowing the car down. Why do we have a minimum weight limit and not a maximum one? Because a lighter car will always be faster :)

Most B4's for example are overweight without any lead in them, so making them heavier is just reducing their potential cornering performance.

[Lee Martin]

mine doesnt seem to bad round corners.................

[Northy]

i can see your point....but big cars need the power to weight our little ones can be way way way over powered anyway, therefore allowing us to be able to aid handle by adding weight

If it's overpowered, make it less powerful? :confused:

I'm with Rich on this.

Just one example: Remember the doubles at Bury, my S2 was about 3g over the minimum weight limit that weekend and I nailed them every lap from my first lap of practise. The lightness of the car must have helped that? :confused:

Someone much cleverer than me once said: 'light is right' ;)

[Richard Lowe]

mine doesnt seem to bad round corners.................
Thats because sOoper Pidge is behind the wheel! :)

[Lee Martin]

you do make it less powered brains,

the fact is we dnt need anymore speed...... back in the day it needed to be really light to go fast.....now its not so much of an issue.............you can put weight in the car to make it better...hence...why we do!!!!

[Lee Martin]

Thats because sOoper Pidge is behind the wheel! :)

haha! dunno bout tht!!!!!!
:rolleyes:

[Northy]

you do make it less powered brains,



Shirly.. :D your just altering the power to weight ratio, not how powerful it is? :confused:

[Richard Lowe]

I think the reason it doesn't effect overall laptimes as much as full sized cars is because we arn't sat in the car feeling what the cars doing, so we will never be getting 100% of the performance out of the cars. In a full size car it's pretty obvious if the rear slides 10" or so out of line, but can anyone really see the rear of one of our cars stepping out 1" from 50' away?

[Northy]

Not me, I can barely see the bloody numbers these days! :D :D :D

G - getting old... :(

[jimmy]

How can adding lead be wrong if it helps? :confused: Just a thought. If it helps it helps.

[Northy]

Jimmy, what are you really doing when you add weight? :confused:

[jimmy]

slowing the reactions of the car?

[Lee Martin]

ensuring the weight change when cornering is where u want it to be.......

[Northy]

Altering the weight distribution...... :rolleyes:

[jimmy]

The 'classic' 2wd layout is about stability- and the B4 is already a HEAVY car.

[Northy]

:o :o :o

[super__dan]

I agree light is right in principle but from a feel point of view and model cars sometimes is just feels better. My early B4 was MILES better when someone told me to put loads of lead in the back

Just one example: Remember the doubles at Bury, my S2 was about 3g over the minimum weight limit that weekend and I nailed them every lap from my first lap of practise. The lightness of the car must have helped that? :confused:

Someone much cleverer than me once said: 'light is right' ;)

To stir the pot, I was repeatadly told me car was one of the best over the double yet my car is almost always the HEAVIEST car at most 2wd nationals. What I lost in the air I must have gained in traction whilst on the ground???

It also flew pretty well over Richards car at the regional from what I remember? :)

[Richard Lowe]

But what was making the difference when you put the lead in the back Dan, the extra weight or the change in weight distribution? Since most people put the weight at the back maybe the B4's centre of gravity is too far forward...?

It also flew pretty well over Richards car at the regional from what I remember? :) Only because I was being a big girl that lap :D

[Lee Martin]

frm wat i have found it just makes the rear suspension work alot better.....

and settles the car

[SHY]

My thoughts:

In principle lighter is always faster. But only if you have enough traction. If we talk about onroad cars, a heavier car will normally actually be faster in the wet (or with very low grip). Under dry conditions with good grip a lighter car is not only faster but also better to drive.

For 4WD OR I think that without question a lighter car is faster. Unless traction is very, very poor.

For 2WD OR it's more complex, as the amount of traction is much more limited. The laptimes will easily tell the truth... I agree somewhat with Richard though, since the Losis need lead in the front and B4s in the rear, there must be a very slight construction mistake. Still, we are talking about small amounts of lead here... The only thing I feel could be even better would be to get the same "added grip" from downforce in stead of weight.

(I tried with 5 cells on a very slippery track to get power down. Still, the car felt better with the "dead cell" in the car. The weight settles the car better)

[bigred5765]

my two cents,
the weight limits set on our toy cars was when we had little power and crap battery's, may be things need to be looked at now we have nuclear power stations for battery's and dragster motors, the extra weights calms down a over powered mad fast car that we run now a days. and makes them more controllable,after all if you put a 6000hp dragster motor in a f1 car I'm sure it would drive like a sack of poo till it had some weight added

[Richard Lowe]

after all if you put a 6000hp dragster motor in a f1 car I'm sure it would drive like a sack of poo till it had some weight added
I'm pretty sure it would still be useless :D

[bigred5765]

i think u might be right richard lol

[super__dan]

I don't think the limits need changing, there is no problem right now. People who want to run light can do so, people who want to add weight can do so!

Rich, I don't know if more actual weight or weight distribution was the improvement. As my car is heavy, probably the weight distribution was more important on that day on that track.

Could I lighten the B4 front end easily and safely? Probably not.

What is interesting is people who pack the back of a B4 with lead, then run the cells forward! ???

[Chrislong]

In reply to Stewart, don't worry about the car being over weight.

My car is also well over weight, and it can be very difficult to bring it down to the BRCA minimum. Some people have been able to somehow without any effort, Northy and his S2, Rich Lowe and his B4, Stu Mahons XX4 - all light cars and they really have not tried to make them that way - just the way they are. (Lucky sods). But then some add weight anyway to an already heavy car.

Stewart, its all down to preference. As you can tell by the replies here what one person says is conclusively right, someone else will contradict. So go and get some sticky lead from kwik fit, and experiment.

Personally, I prefer not at the mo, that could change by weekend, and when I have run lead I can't really feel it unless I change it by 20g at a time. Anything less and im sure the feeling is phycological in knowing its there.

Chris

[SHY]

My bet is that we will see new EFRA rules before long with maximum 5 cells. It's probably the future. As I understand from touring cars, which already have these rules, they are actually now faster with 5 cells in stead of 6.

Main arguments from the manufacturers are less heat & technical problems. 5 cells helps a lot in this respect.

If this happens the question is whether the min. weight limit will be adjusted... (I hope not)

[Chrislong]

Id like to see minimum weight removed, could make things VERY interesting while we all learn how to/if to make car lighter.