New Race Format

[sfry61]

Hey chaps, just thought id start this off.

Personally im not to keen on it all, it seemed to make everyone in the final drive a little crazy ;) maybe it will calm down over time...i hope. Id prefer the old format with a touch of driver grading.

What are other peoples thoughts??:confused:

[Hog]

I think the grid layout worked well - less first corner pileups.

I'm a little confused (which doesn't take much) how the grading system works though. I had a mare in qualifying, then won the B final. So next week I'm pole in the B final and as such "stuck" there with no opportunity to get into the A?

To be honest it doesn't really bother me - just trying to get a grip on it.

I'm just wondering how it works - now I'm in the B am I destined to stay there for the remainder of the 6 week period? Can I bump up into the A and if so, how? And what happens if I can yet an A grade driver who hasn't been able to race for a few weeks makes a return? Do I get bumped back down into the B despite the fact that I've made the effort to race every week to improve my standing?

[crewie]

next week dave your first two races are qualifing which gives everybody the chance to get in the a every week. all the ranking does is sort out the heat listings. the system worked quite well i thought with the top quali heat and a final having 3 or 4 different drivers in it. give it time chaps as any system will be great for you one week and bad the next.

[Hog]

Sorted - thanks Dave. Told you it didn't take much to confuse me.

Just call me Stampy.

[Hairy Spider]

"Wot Crewie said..."

Ranking only affects qualifying. I'll post the rankings on the website later so you can see how it updates from week to week during the trial.

Jon.

[Mutant]

I guess there are a few things to iron out... and i guess it is only a trial.....

I guess we give it a go and see how we get on.

my view at the moment is that the new format sucks.

we seem to have moved from three close heats of RACING to two heats of QUALIFYING and one race..... and not a good race at that.....

The old system averages performance over three races, you can afford to have a bad race and the other two can count. Now if your one race of the evening is a bad one thats it.... poor performance time....

We also do not seem to be able to cater for the younger racers that up until now have been able to go home after their second race....

ftq also seems to advantage the rope skipping types that do not feel that they should be disadvantaged by their own mistakes...


Ultimately i feel heats and finals for 50+ drivers in just over a couple of hours leads to one too many compromises for an enjoyable evening.

i am a fan of the new proposal for rankings however.....

[MHeadling]

Well each to their own, but I really liked it last night, the heats to me seemed cleaner as people want to get a good final.

There are less pile ups at the first corner too.

It felt more of a race evening as the finals your racing in are peole of your own ability (unless you had 2 crap qual!)

I'm all for it and hope it stays!

[Hairy Spider]

The new system doesn't really affect the '2 round' juniors at all. The worst case scenario is that they qualified pole in their final and finish last in the final because they did not compete in it. Under the old system they would more than likely have dropped places from not competeing in round 3 anyway so the drop is probably no more than a few places when compared to 'old faithful'. The only thing it does effect is the ranking but that could be solved by setting the ranking on the overal qualifying positions rather than final results. The updated rankings are up on the club site for anyone that's interested.

Jon.

[discostu]

hey mutant

the format on trial was to give the opptunuty to race drivers who are of the same abbility the format that is the norm doesn't catter for missed weeks are bad weeks and you are always racing for next weeks grid possition which can be a tad frustrating imo not just for the faster drivers but for the slower drivers who are forever moving out the way.

the reason the finals can feel a tad scrappy is because you are racing at the same pace. take for example the normal a heat my self neil elliot dave dave will and tom it is always a little scrappy you stick edd two heats below cos he couldn't make it the previuouse week and wins that heat by 2 maybe 3 laps and has a race on his own were all the drivers move out his way he would then say his race wasn't scrappy cos there is nobody to challenge and the point of racing is to RACE each other.

time will tell with the format but dont forget the format that is on trial is the same format as the reginals, natianls in pretty much all rc classes qualifying and then finals.

stu

[Mutant]

jon.... we will have to agree to disagree that it does not impact negatively on youngsters that can only attend two races... and yes the ranking could be changed to the two rounds of qualifying... then we can all piss about in the final because it does not matter a jot.

and stu i again strongly disagree that regional drivers would find 2 qualify and one final satisfying.... it is not the same in my book.....
the ranking proposal, that i do support wold seem to address some of your concerns.

These are my current thoughts.... they may change as the trial continues.... and in the end what the majority want, the majority should get....

[gav4wd]

I thought that it worked well, i did miss racing from the back but that can sometimes be a bit of luck racing.
What i liked was the four diffrent guys in the final up from anouther heat made you have to think about it.

finals are always going to be do or die missions whether they are 1 leg or three legs points or no points.

its called racing all it needs is a strong referee whos call is final

what could be fun is to do points for qualifiying 1st 100 2nd 99 etc
and make the finals a reverse grid.

would a stagger start clean up the qualifiying and then race from a grid in the final.
anyhow good to have change and i give it a 9 out 10 looking forward to stu, ed ,niggs all racing :thumbsup:

[discostu]

jon.... we will have to agree to disagree that it does not impact negatively on youngsters that can only attend two races... and yes the ranking could be changed to the two rounds of qualifying... then we can all piss about in the final because it does not matter a jot.

and stu i again strongly disagree that regional drivers would find 2 qualify and one final satisfying.... it is not the same in my book..... or maybe we should suggest the regionals should be run in a couple of hours and then if it is nice and sunny we can all go have ice cream on the beach.

the ranking proposal, that i do support wold seem to address some of your concerns.

These are my current thoughts.... they may change as the trial continues.... and in the end what the majority want, the majority should get....


but reginals dont run on a wednesday night in a couple of hours my point is the new format is a proven format, it sounds like to me you stugled racing againts drivers of the simular ability in the finals.

[Mutant]

how could i have struggled? they were of similar ability? ;)

as you appear to be suggesting.... Maybe i just have not run enough finals in my time.... maybe i need the practice...... looks like i'm going to get some.....

[discostu]

running finals will certanly stop all the risky first lap moves ill be back down in a couple of weeks looking forward to it.:thumbsup:

[Mutant]

Stu.. applogies for the beach wisecrack..... :) momentarily got a little hot under the collar.....

[discostu]

thats cool i was a little harsh there is another five weeks of the trial you may change your mind.

stu:thumbsup:

[Hairy Spider]

jon.... we will have to agree to disagree that it does not impact negatively on youngsters that can only attend two races...

Not really. I have nothing to agree or disagree with. You gave no reasons as to why they have to stay for a third race now when they didn't before. Ultimately it will be up to the junior members themselves to voice their opinion either directly or via their parents so if you don't like it... speak up :) I actually think they have something more to aim for now since a good first round could get them pole in round 2 :woot: That's a victory in itself ;)

and yes the ranking could be changed to the two rounds of qualifying... then we can all piss about in the final because it does not matter a jot.

Guess that all depends on whether you care about the championship points or not. If you don't then there would be no point in racing in the finals.

At the moment I'm neither for or against the system but I'm willing to see how it goes.

[Mutant]

sorry, did not understand that your suggestion meant that the kids would not compete for the championship.... my bad...

They don't have to say anything... if the majority want... they should get... no? it does not matter what they think or say now....

[sfry61]

It's nice to see everyones opinion:)

i must say that the qualifying rounds produced some imensely close racing...i could barely keep up in the A heat;)

I know in a sitchuation like this it would be very hard to please everyone, there's always going to be one or two that disagree, it just needs to be given a chance. it does have potential

[gav4wd]

last night showed despite being the quickest all night a car failure nearly gave me 97 points instead of 100.
makes it intresting and an open playing field.:thumbsup:

[discostu]

i raced for the first time with the trial format last night and left the meeting with the sense ive raced the competion rather than making the numbers up for the last round in the old format as the meeting would have been won by that point.

im liking

stu

[Hog]

It seems that every format has its pros and cons.

For example I raced my arse off the previous week to finish 2nd, only to be bumped down the grid due to a returning driver - namely you Stu :). And if Ed had raced, my 2nd then becomes a 4th.

It's a good thing if it frees up Alan from having to decide where everybody goes into a heat, just not sure on the system of deciding on the driver grading. If, for example, the week that was used to create the drivers grading I'd had a mare of a night, how does that fairly create my driver grade?

Would it perhaps not be fairer to have drivers graded on a "rolling" basis - whereas their grade is created over say their last 6 results? This gives 2 options as well:

1 - to include 0 results where a driver hasn't raced - this rewards commitment to the club, or

2 - don't include 0 results - hence not penalising them if they can't attend and still maintaining their last 6 scores that count.

I think the racing has definitely been closer in the last few weeks which is a good thing, but as with any new system there's bumps to be ironed out I feel.

Just my $0.02 worth.......

[jordan1]

i like the system but at the same time is annoying was second in my final car cut out, and ended up 24th ranked when was 17th when the car cut out so now im gunna be in a heat which i shouldnt be in next week

[Hog]

I stand to be corrected Jordan but I think you'll be classified as last in your final hence you will still be in that band of driver ability next week rather than dropping too far down.

[discostu]

hey dave

i can see your point that would be frustrating sorry buddy you have a good sujestion and it would certanly make a lot of sense like you say if it was done as a rolling six week or even 4 week it wouldnt matter and graded on those 6 weeks would certanly make it a little fairer but the bumping down would still happen for example i didn't race for two weeks but the 6 weeks before then i scored higher points than you dave so i would still have been seeded higher and you would still feel that i bumped you down as you haddent seen me for two weeks.

stu

[Hog]

See your point Stu - but over the 6 week period there would be a greater chance of the highs and lows levelling out rather than the grading being done on one result.

[Hairy Spider]

Personally I think that any system based on average results would be pointless. You would get such minor changes in the grading each week that you would be racing the same people week in week out. Even with the old race format, you were only as good as you last performance and this is no different. I'm all for people thinking about different grading systems but it will need to fit in with the race softwares capabilities (which are quite limited is this area). Any system that involves manually working out gradings each week isn't going to happen, or if it does, it won't be me doing it every week. Sorry...

Don't loose sight of the fact that the grading only affects the qualifying grid positions of the first round. Everything that happens after that is down to you ;).

I have emailed Rob Nelson (BBK) asking what criteria are used to determin the grid positions when 2 people have the same ranking.

[discostu]

you have a very good point there as dave said i was graded higher than him for the first round of qualifying but i failed to finished that race so for round two a started in last place but managed to qulify second after that round by winning the race with a time just shy of neils.

[sfry61]

can i make a suggestion on the qualifying rounds, staggered starts? Dont know if anyone has suggested this before:confused: people still seem to think they're racing for position and it all gets a little mad;)

Everything else is goooooood:thumbsup: just the qualifying needs a tiny tweek....in my opinion

[spud31]

Well done steve i agree as i had to marshall your heats an what a mess!
It does seem unless your in the top heat the driving standard has dropped through floor since the new system.

I also think maybe we need to run race numbers an is it poss for the computer to update the race order more often?
It seems what happens is your on a good run lapping people, but they dont understand so you get taken out. I think people are still confused that there racing the clock not each other due to grid start.

As a side issue can the marshalling be sorted please, im fed up with having to avoid some of our younger members who tend to stand in track normally getting dragged into someone elses accident.
Maybe a system where the younger guys dont get the jump to marshall as they are scared of the cars coming at them.
i know in rallycross no marshall can be under the age of 12, maybe this isnt practical but we now have stepped qualifing up to serious level an maybe everything else needs to aswell.

This is not a dig i just want the to enjoy racing again an if it means i have to marshall more than once im up for it.

Spud

[whissstle]

Steve, good suggestion.

Not only does this follow Regional and National formats, but it will enable all drivers to get away to a good start and easier for drivers to pick up a faster driver during the first few laps.
Our racing is getting closer and closer with a mistake of whoever's making easily costing 5 or 6 places.

I was aware of a few drivers getting really frustrated last night, and a bit of discipline and driving etiquette is required by both a slower driver and lapping driver.

Many corners have room to pull off the racing line to enable the faster driver to overtake without needing to stop and ruin your own flow. But, there are also places where overtaking should not be considered.

Another point was raised to me last night regarding marshalling. We do have some young drivers who I agree with the comment made, should not be placed in critical positions to marshall, such as immediately after a jump where it can be frightening and more dangerous for a 4 footer than us big guys.

An awareness and a bit of common sense should make sure we all have good fun racing.

Andy

[Hog]

I don't think there's any need for a "system" as such for not placing younger marshalls in a position of risk near a ramp - surely it's down to common sense for the older drivers when they marshal to offer to swap with a younger driver?

Driving standards are always going to be a bone of contention when it comes to racing within the relatively tight confines of a village hall. We've all had our frustrations and felt hard done by when on the receiving end of a enthusiastic passing move.

We're in the throes of trying a few different formats at the moment so perhaps staggered starts may help. Personally - I prefer to race against people than the clock. A grid start means I know exactly who is where after the first corner - as stated though perhaps it's time to remind drivers about racing etiquette when it comes to lapped traffic and the "first corner pileup"..........

[MHeadling]

I have been having a chat with some other club members and it seems the new format is a good step forward.

I feel Richard has a point in the fact that a stagered start will help the first corner pile ups, let's save that for the finals!! :lol:

When I was racing TC at Maritime the cars were numbered and the timing system used to call out the leader and when the leader was coming up to lap you, this seemed to work well and gave clean racing.

Maybe a little chat at the meeting to make it clear that the first 2 rounds are qualifying and that it's not a full on final so we get cleaner driving as your racing the clock not each other.

Maybe this could work at Faversham but maybe it will confuse things? One thing we have got to remember is keeping is simple and fun for the younger members.

But last of all big thanks to all the people that help run the club and give up their time, with out them we wouldn't be racing!

[Team No Idea]

Bonjorno chaps! I havn't been to faversham for a number of weeks now as im taking some time out to concentrate on the SE regionals. So im yet to try this new system, D'oh!. I have to say though its all sounding like lots of fun and im looking forward to a return to weekly racing. Just out of interest i take it i am ungraded as i havn't been there and therefore i will be dans la bottom heat and graded 1000th?:lol::thumbsup:

[discostu]

hey mark maritime run a different race software we use bbk maritime runs rc laps wich allows the computer to have the speach to call out lapping drivers the only problem with rc laps system we run on average 10 sec laps wich means the coputer would constantly be calling out car 1 lapping ect.

i also agree with a proper staggerd start system but i feel the younger driver will not understand how it works im a little confused why there is being such an issue with geid starts as yes it is qaulifying but its not a stagered qauly so in thery you are still racing each other so the passing still needs to be treated the same way as it always has been the only difference now is everybody is racing drivers of the same abillity.

as for the youngster marshaling a lot has to be desired from the oldies i cant remeber how many times if lost my car behind an oldie who is dithering around the middle of the race track my view is the marshals should marshal from left or the right and not run up the race track so they would be out of eye shot quicker.

but having said that DONT CRASH problem solved.

stu

gotta say last ights racing was excelent realy enjoyed it and again went home felling like ive had a race.

[spud31]

Stu i hate to say this but drop down a few heats an see whats its like. lol
The grid starts just cause pileups an gung ho driving, the top 2 heats drivers respect each other an can work out that your racing the clock not each other as your race time dosent start i assume until you pass the loop for the first time?
I dont want to be told to get out of the way when im lapping a person for the 2nd time when they start wheel banging in every corner an this person should know better.
As i stated its not normally your crash that causes the issue its being involved in someone elses accident whilst there being marshalled.
Dont get me wrong we all make blunders lol but people driving into you whilst your marshalling another car dosent help.
Its been stated we dont need a system for dealing with the younger marshalls as its common sence we obviously do as the common sence approach is not being carried out.
There must be an issue with driving during qualifying as both ross an i improved by 3 an 2 laps respectivly in our finals this does not normally happen in other classes finals are usually slower.

Maybe im expecting too much i dont know, just when racing nitro these issues are apparant, an we have rolling race time start.
Also whilst im ranting im fed up being hit in the foot by cars practising whilst trying to walk out to my marshalling position. This is unsafe an could cause injury. The person then had the cheek to have a go at me for doing it, i mean come on do they think you do these things on purpose i really want a bruised foot for fun.

serman over lol

[discostu]

yeah rich i think you could be right the lower heats do look to be carnage.

[gav4wd]

I personally feel a 1 to 10 staggered start for the first round and the ftd list staggered for the second. then the must past the car in front attitude goes maybe out the window.
finals will always be finals as long as it is being watched and people honour rules i.e waiting, no rope jumping all should be as good as it can be.
with regard to the qual issue the issue is a already stated people are now racing people of the same standard stagger the start and it will reduce im sure.
we have got to remember this is a club not a national and over the 40 50 people there racing not all are close in ability as others also it is a small hall with a lap time of 10 sec, more jumps now, 8 cars, 8 marshalls and the fact its RACING:drool: it's never going to be perfect.

[Hog]

Maybe im expecting too much i dont know, just when racing nitro these issues are apparant, an we have rolling race time start.

Perhaps racing outside and having an awful lot more room have something to do with this as well mate?

[spud31]

Perhaps racing outside and having an awful lot more room have something to do with this as well mate?


Maybe but i actually ment the driving standard an respect for not wrecking each others qualifing runs.:bored:
I agree with that its not a national, but the drivers are much closer an racing more serious so maybe more disapline has to be introduced, i dunno TBH i feel like an outcast for saying anything as my posts seem to be being disected now just want to enjoy racing again an not go home with a bag of bits lol.

[Hog]

Not at all dissected Rich - we're all looking for the perfect resolution - but we have to be realistic with what's achievable in the confines of the hall.

As has been said before - we are in the throes of trying some different formats and I'm sure Alan & Jon have viewed this thread and are taking on board yours and anyone else's concerns.

See you tonight - hopefully you'll have a better evening than last week.

[discostu]

so how do we think the stagerd start went tonight.

stu

[Hog]

Personally - I think it sucked. Fine for a whole days racing when you have 4 qualifiers and 3 finals as per our Winter series, but for a Wednesday night it just knocked the "cut and thrust" element right on the head.

-1 from me.

[crewie]

Same here Dave!

[spud31]

Much Much Better

A chance of finishing a meeting without a broken car which is superb, also should show peoples real pace.
Then you have a close final with people who have run close times to yourself.

TBH Hog you were in my heat an it was v scrappy at times as people hadnt listened to how the race system works. An we both in the final had issues with lapping but thats usual. Hog you won the final so your true pace showed through then.
Biggest issue i had was you running different body that looks like someone elses lolol.

Crewie dont know what happened to you mate were you in B with us?

It will get better

[sfry61]

Well for the one race i managed to finish without bits falling off or something going wrong i thought it was tip top:thumbsup:

Everyone in the seemed to have their own racing space, you no longer have to worry about people running into you and spoiling your time.

Was it a bit rough in the lower heats? it should calm down when people get used to it.

[Hog]

Don't think I won the final Richard - I know for a fact I was behind Will at the very least.

Crewie decided that instead of racing in the 2nd round he would talk himself into the B final :p

I guess it depends whether you want to race the clock, or other drivers.

Racing the clock is predictable and it's purely down to you. Racing other drivers throws in the element of unpredictability - the "what are they going to do to defend" scenario. To me, THAT is racing.

Do we want the winner on the night to be the fastest person against the clock, or the one that is quickest and has the racecraft to beat the other drivers?

[MHeadling]

I thought it was pretty good last night, the only slight probs were getting through back markers, I feel things could be improved with numbers on the cars so its easy to see who is lapping you and having a speaker on the stage so you can hear where you are in the race as its a bit hard to hear at the other end of the hall.

But you had the usual suspects in the A final so it worked out ok I thought

[spud31]

Hog

Thought you were in B with us but hey i remember now, you made your usual A final so same as normal, thats a good thing isnt it.

[Hog]

I think the driver grading has proved that it's a worthwhile addition to the FORCC way of doing things, but I know of plenty that are unhappy with the staggered start format. We have said that it's only a trial period so we'll see after that I guess.

I just hope that everyone feels free to have their say.............

While we're on the subject of change - do we start naming and shaming those who never help put the track away?

[discostu]

last night i enjoyed the heats in my view was so much cleaner but i was in heat 6 and its normaly ok the lower heats seemed to look ok.

im confused with the driver gradeing system not taking anything away from will but how does the grading work out a driver who has had 1 win and a majority of lower score is higher graded than two drivers who have finished no lower thand second this doesn't figure.

stu

[crashman]

Hi,
Two things from me ref the new race format.
One good and one needs sorting.
The one good thing for me is the staggered start. Yes you are racing the clock but only to get your space in one of the Finals. This type of start gives you a clean start at least. Once in the finals then you will be racing each other and hopefully get your "cut and thrust" your looking for.
The one that needs sorting is the grading. Surely you should add up all the results gained and then divide the number of races attended. This should then give you the average sore and thats your ranking.
Well, I hope you don't mind me adding my comments as I am after all new to this Offroad thing, but I must say I am having so much fun.
Thanks FORCC
Always remember "enjoy the drive"
Andy.

[crewie]

Hi Andy. The sort of grading you mention would be better but as far as I am aware the race software does not cater for that system. Therefore, someone would have to work it out manually and I dont think you will get many voluteers for that job!

[Tractor Boy]

Although I'm the chairman of the club and some would say i should keep my views to myself, I disagree and feel it's only fair that i should put my point, as a driver, across.

It's good that we're trying new formats but this will bring negative and possitive opinions with any new format.

Last week Jon in my absence asked people what they would like to try for the next trial period, and he tells me two people spoke up out of fourty. This proves that a majority of the club members just want to come along and race, and with that in mind I am in favour of putting in place a race format at the end of these trial periods, which works for the club as a whole, the time we have to run in an evening and for the benefit of the people that run the club, so please bare this in mind. If you read this thread so far i can count about six or seven people that have posted an opinion regards our trial periods.

The point above about grading using an average system is yes great, but our software does not allow for this so somebody would have to sit down and manually work it out week by week, and there is no way any of us want to do that as we feel we do so much already i.e. wednesday night and the addition of the outside track. To give you an example take packing away at the end of the evening which should idealy be done by the last two heats, i counted three from sixteen last night helping and the two people under the stage were the same two people that were there at 5:30 building the track. I hope you understand my point that ideas are great however if they heap even more work onto the people that run the club, I personaly don't think that they should ever come into practise.

Please don't stop adding your oppinions as this is what the thread is for!

Kind regards Alan

[Hog]

Chairman or not Alan, you're a member of the club and entitled to your say as is every other member. I would perhaps say even more so as you're one of the few remaining "original" members from way back when.........

I think a few people need to step back a moment and take into consideration that this club doesn't run itself. The fact that it is such a smooth operation is credit to those that make it happen. Certain members put an awful lot of time and effort into making sure that your Wednesday night entertainment runs smoothly. Among all this they're listening to the club membership and taking on board what changes people would like to see. It doesn't happen all at the press of a button.

And yet at the end of an evening it's the same old few putting it all away as Alan rightly states, when those that should be doing their bit are chatting away in the side rooms about their final. It's not a written rule but it is a courtesy thing that the last 2 races of the night put the track away. About time certain drivers stepped up to the mark to help out before those that are doing ALL this get hacked off with it.

And on top of this we have the new permanent outdoor venue to get up and running fully. Personally I haven't been able to get up there as much as I'd hoped, but again certain members of the club have been spending an inordinate amount of time not just working on the site itself and preparing the land, but working behind the scenes to liase with the local community to get toilet facilities sorted, refreshments, site access, materials - everything you need to build a successful venue for our club to EXPAND. This is all being done in their own time and their own expense, purely for the continued good fortune of the club.

Opinions of club members are welcomed, but as Alan stated if it means more work for those who already are doing more than their fair share when others stand idly by then changes won't be made and opportunities may be missed. It was emphasised when the announcement was made about the new venue that it would only happen if the club as a whole made the effort to make it happen. Just because the first race meeting has been held doesn't mean we're "there". There's an awful lot of work to be carried out over the months before we get into a full 2011 season, but unless the club works as a whole then you may lose a fantastic outdoor race venue.

[discostu]

so what are people thought on the stagerd format now we have had more of a chance to try it do people think the driving standard is better and racing is closer do the other formats we have tried more favoured my veiw is the staggerd starts with one final is the best format we have had.

stu

[Hog]

Staggered grid - yes. Staggered start - no.

Take for example my first race on Wednesday. I left the grid position 6, so starting 6 seconds after (I think) Neil. With a lap time of around 11-12 seconds, and after a couple of minor errors (getting caught up in someone else's accident), within 2-3 laps I had been caught and "lapped" by Neil.

Race over for me then.

I know it's against the clock, but with Neil now physically in front of my car there's no way I can push at 100% for fear of making an error and ruining his race.

The hall is just not big enough to utilise this type of format. Yes it works over the winter series when you have 4 goes at qualifying, but on a Wednesday night there just isn't the opportunity to make amends should you have a bad race. Proof of the point - I qualified 6th in the B final.

I know plenty of people just want to go back to the 3 rounds format where you each get a go at the front, middle and back rows. It worked for 20+ years, so I think it's time to take a serious look at the changes that have been made and if they are necessary. The driver grading is good I accept and has taken the headache from Alan when booking in which can only be a plus point.

As an aside - nice to see a few new faces helping out at the end of the night. Still one of two regular posters to this thread that still seem to be averse to doing their bit though........time to name names?

[discostu]

hey dave

im struggling to see why the winter series is any difference running the staggerd format to wednesday's you still get two shots at qualifying, to be honest if neil has cought and pasted you you should use that as an advantage by folowing him ok you will not beat him that round but you would more likly be off straight after him next round then all you need to do is follow within a second and beat him if he makes a mistake and you dont your quids in.

you have to admit the driving standards are much better in the current format than the both other formats we have tried.

as we are trying different formats hows about we try the original format that we used before the round by round format which was the fastest time qaulified in the old style three races everybody starting at the same time fastest time wins i could never see why round by round was used apart from the odd oil spill which doesnt happen very often.

as for me big thumbs up for staggerd start 2 qualifiyers and 1 final and the grading system seems to work:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumb sup:.

stu

[rc_penguin]

To me the system has its pros and cons :eh?:

Yes starts maybe cleaner etc but I agree with what dave says, laps are just too quick for the staggered start and a couple of mistakes puts you lapped and in a awkward position however the staggered grid seems to work both ways being cleaner off the line compared to the 3 lines mass start :).
Also even though i like the qualifing then final format 2 qualifiers doesnt feel enough of a chance, a break or car failure in round one causes a all balls out run next in round two as an attempt to qualify as high as possible. Ive heard 3 3 min qualifiers and 5 min final wispered and that sounds worth a try :D
Also the driver ranking seems a bit :eh?: , im not sure how it works but i had a 1st overall one week which put me pole for the A the next week (which is a bit scary lol) then a 3rd , 5th etc over a couple of weeks, then ill have a bad evening and end up 9th or so a week or two later and ill drop to the bottom of B qualifying the next week maybe it should work on an average over certain number of weeks or something??

My 2 pence :)
Will

[discostu]

ok if the 1 second gap between drivers at the start is to long reduce it to 0.5 secs so if you were off last you would only be 4 seconds behind in a 8 car heat so if the lead car was averaging 12 secs you would still be 8 secs in front if you crash or make i mistake thats unlucky but the simple fact is if you dont make any mistakes and avoid other peoples mistakes you will win.

[Hog]

avoid other peoples mistakes you will win.

Not always easy or possible.....

Right - both myself and Alan won't be at the hall on Wednesday. I would ask that EVERYONE does their bit to help and ensure the meeting runs smoothly.

DON'T leave it all to Jon, Crewie, Ollie, Andy J and the usual few to set the track up, do the loop etc. And especially when it comes to packing away I would like to see EVERYONE from the last 2 races do their bit.

It's really starting to hack me off that despite reminders and asking politely that there's still a certain few that deem it below them to lend a hand. It's not much to ask - especially as these drivers are usually still out in the car park at the end of the night chatting away when I lock the hall - it's not like you're dashing off home is it gents???

[discostu]

hey chaps

great nights racing again last night are we gonna try another race format or will we be voting which one is best for the racing ie the orignal, stagerd with grid start or stagerd with line start.

stu

[Hog]

How about we vote for a suitable punishment for those drivers that never help pack away? Especially as I was told that the meeting on the 18th had virtually no-one remain behind to help despite my request for people to do so.

You want changes made? Do your bit and help. Else we just go back to what we had before.

[discostu]

if i remeber correct wasn't it the last two heats to pack up which is all well and good but didnt we used to rotate the heats which we dont do anymore maybe this should be done again.

[gav4wd]

Good point stu,
im all for the grading system
im all for the rotating of the last two heats
and Hopefully the old race system save the current one for the winter series.

[discostu]

im all for the

grading system
rotating heats (maybe points deducted for not clearing away) only if heats are rotated.
and stagerd start 2 Q 1 final IMO makes closer racing and somthing to race for.

stu

[Hog]

Rotating heats may be possible to some extent but you have to allow that the youngsters cannot stay late and will always be placed early on in the running order.

Regardless of this if EVERYONE from the last 2 heats helps it takes minutes. The top heats should be setting an example anyway - not just racing etiquette but all aspects of a race meeting.

Jon and Alan will be back this week so I'm sure we'll sort out the race format.

[sfry61]

First of all i didnt really like going back to the old format of racing, all it seemed to do was promote pointless crashing. I didnt have one clean race, every time i got sucked into someone else's incident.

At least with the two qualifying rounds of old we had a strong chance of setting a relativly quick overall time.

Because the racing has been so chaotic and that ive oddly been placed in the c heat:confused: its going to take me a few weeks before i can get back in the a heat.....Rant over!

[Hog]

But on the flipside............I really enjoyed last night.

Everyone gets a fair crack at starting on each row.

You're not starting off only 6 seconds in front of someone with every chance of being lapped within a couple of laps.

Starting all together you know who's in front and who's behind and react accordingly.

And the best bit - although you're still racing the clock, you're racing other drivers too which adds to the evening. I'm afraid for me purely racing the clock detracted from my Wednesday night fun.

I heard lots of positives last night which was nice to hear. And also a big thanks for those that packed away - I think everyone that should have been doing it was :thumbsup:

[discostu]

im with steve on this one the racing hasent been that crash and bash for a long time (2 months) and in this format there is no racing againt the clock its down to whoever can get the cleanest run but on the plus side at least i got chance to scrub some new tyres in as ther meeting was won after round 2.

anyway its been decided we shall say no more.

a club vote would have been nice tho.

stu

[Rebelrc]

I think we need someone too watch over our races ,with stop go 's punishment for bad driving....or at least being told to clean it up embareses ,them
the second leg of the A last week was really poor......
Stop cheating you cheats...you know who you are rope jumpers.....you think you get away with it , you might but everyone is slagging you off in the pits, and ruining everyone else's race
If it continues like last wednesday i am off to new things
as i simply have better things to do with my time
as i am getting sick of rushing all day at work to make up some time so as to finish slightly earlier so i can get home ,shower and change,get some diesel,race up the a2 in peak time, just to get smashed up or reversed into by a car thats made a mistake in front of you then slams it into rev and wipes your race out
I meen its a bloody close call to wether 15 minutes track race time is worth it anyway?
i think we also need to make sure the marshalls pay more attension as the week before last i was upside down for for two of ed's laps (he said was that you on the straight all that time...i passed you twice) with the marshalls watching the race....to which i responded TURN IT OFF!That was my night ruined
And whilst i am ranting lol
Can we stop this stupid marshalling where as they marshall there freinds by putting them over the rope around the track a bit so as not to lose time....thats wrong
also wrong is jumping ropes when you have made a mistake ....Jame's the other week said to someone that had crashed infront of him JUST JUMP THE ROPE WHY DONT YOU! sarcasticly....to which the person (naming no names) said LOL I DIDNT GAIN BUY IT?????????????????but surely the point of our little car game is that if you make a mistake you lose a bit of time, not continue like nothing has happened!
Sort it out boys you are ruining my and manys night out
and also taking the P a bit out of those that do such a great job of running and organising it each week.....Thanklessly.... Alan/john/dave/jodie/oli/etc Thanks from me!guys
Rant over.
bye then

[sfry61]

After last night it would seem we have gone back to the chaotic crash your way to the front heats:thumbdown: and the heat listing appear to be VERY random, what's going on with the ranking system??

i'm not a fan of this format :thumbdown: bring back 2 qualifying rounds and 1 final!!!!!

[Team No Idea]

those that do such a great job of running and organising it each week.....Thanklessly.... Alan/john/dave/jodie/oli/etc Thanks from me!guys


I have to say on a positive note, i cant comment on the "new" format with regards to qualifiers and finals as i missed the whole 2 month trial thingy.
However being back indoors racing again is great! the bug has bitten me again and i cant wait for next week, even though im a bit rusty and ive forgoten the art of driving indoors.
As for Scott's comments about running and organising the club....spot on mate, they all all do a fabbo job for not alot of thanks, i only wish i had that kind of dedication in me! Thanks from me too!!:thumbsup:

[branstonpickle]

Iv gotta say its very strange going back to 3 races in witch its all random as to who wins or who finishes and with people who get in a mood as a result of u hitting them when they try to take every corner sideways and u catch them it was all ways cleaner and more predictable when we had 2 qualifiers and a final as people wanted to post gd times to get a gd final start position but if people like a bit more contact than raceing thats up to them...............:wtf:

[Hog]

After last night it would seem we have gone back to the chaotic crash your way to the front heats:thumbdown:

What makes you say that Steve? I though last night was a lot better than the previous week.

As an aside - DO NOT do "burnouts" on the stage or hall floor to try and bed new tyres in. When checking round before locking up last night there are some serious burn marks on the stage. I know when we were packing away last night there was the smell of burning wood in the air. There's a whole carpark outside to scrub tyres in so feel free to use that instead!

[crashman]

Hi All,
I have to agree with sFry61. The "crash bang wallop" is back.
Bring back the 2 Quals 1 Final. I know this wont happen till the new year, But please think about it.
And someone needs to watch the racing. The "oh I've crashed, never mind, just drive over the rope, miss that bit of track out", and "Oh I've lots no time and doing a better time now than my last run".
It's unfair to those that are having a good runs and with the best of 2 runs format means they might just move up to the next heat.

[discostu]

Im with steve and others last night again was crash and bash again i would say the the driving standard has hit an all time low IMO.

i still feel a proper club vote should be done.

and as for the numpty who done the burnout on the stage your an idoit.

stu

[rc_penguin]

I dont particularly mind which format we use, but last 2 weeks seemed to have had very random heats, perhaps it needs time for people to "settle" back in :)

Will

[Hog]

people who get in a mood as a result of u hitting them

Amazing that isn't it?


Im with steve and others last night again was crash and bash again i would say the the driving standard has hit an all time low IMO.


Personally I'm struggling to see what the problem is. We've gone back to a format which has worked well for over 20 years. We were asked to try something new, which we did, but on the whole the opinion we were given was that the old format was the preferred one. Everyone in their heat gets a shot at a front row start. Possibly the grading needs looking at but I'm sure that's underway already.

I can't see how one format over another causes a drop in driving standards over such a short space of time.

[sfry61]

I can't see how one format over another causes a drop in driving standards

Have you not been watching the racing?? people are crashing their way to the front, which ruins everyone elses race.

unless you make a rare clean start for two of the tgree races your never going to get a good run together to get into the top heats.

Antoher thing, is there any reason why i went from bottom of the A heat in the trial format to bottom of C heat when we went back to the old format. Nice to see random heats again!:thumbdown:Not impressed!!:thumbdown:

[Hog]

Have you not been watching the racing?? people are crashing their way to the front, which ruins everyone elses race.

Yes I've been watching the racing, and the same drivers who use forceful tactics were doing so in the trial period as well, and will always do so no matter what format we adopt.

As for your grading I'm afraid I can't comment as I don't know - I'm sure it will be resolved though.

Unfortunately we're in the position of trying to please everyone all of the time, and as you know that's just not possible. Unless everyone speaks up and voices their opinion, we have to go with the majority opinion that has been expressed to us. And that does include drivers of all abilities as one of the clubs top drivers expressed that he preferred the old format too.

Time for everyone to settle down a bit, not take it all quite so seriously, and put some of the fun back into our Wednesday nights............

[crashman]

With everything that has gone on over the past 2 months, have we (as a club) actually voted on a format? If you had a vote then there can be no issues. We go with the majority. I, as a driver and club member would be much happier if I saw a vote taken.

[sfry61]

We voted on the trial format and the majority voted yes for it. No vote was held to go back to the old format, they just decided to do it, which was a tad harsh:(

[MHeadling]

I feel a vote would have been better as to what way to go with the race system.

I think the reason some people are moaning about is they dont have that A final slot they used to have but having 2 x qual and a final sorts the heats the proper way with the quick lads being in the A final and so on, if you didnt make the cut and get in the A,B finals etc try harder and dont crash!

The reason the driving standard is not as good when you have the 3 finals is that with only 2 chances to get a good run in you race clean, simple really.

When its 3 flat our races you will get people pushing hard etc with no major consequences if they cause an accident/skip ropes etc.

I would like to see the 2 heats and finals come back, or at least have a vote on it.

But just wanted to add I really appreciate the work the club/members put in and will continue to support the club, see you next Wednesday!

[Hog]

We voted on the trial format and the majority voted yes for it. No vote was held to go back to the old format, they just decided to do it, which was a tad harsh:(

To be fair very few people actually voted to trial the new format - only a couple of people put their point across when we were all stood in the hall. No vote was taken as such to move back but we did listen to all those that came and spoke to us and listened to their opinions and a view was taken to move back to the old format based on the majority of what we'd been told.

[gav4wd]

Both formats are good and bad.
the 2 qual and 1 final is more the normal format you would race anywhere
but in our small hall qual causes problems, if your first of within 1 ,2 laps you are then trying to lap some person just getting going he is reluctant to let you go why should they in the end a crash happens your qual fkd and his.
problem is lap time to short and some poor driving by people deliberty holding you up .
1 final unless refereed all your hard work in qualifiying gone out the window by poor driving or a unforseen car problem no points .

old format i feel shows the true all round driver of the front against the clock, of the back the racer !! :lol: so is this not like a 3 legged final only the qual list has been taken from the week before?
and you get 3 chances:confused:.
The driving standard issue i feel is due to a very competitive club and a lack of rules set in stone with penaltys issued, what seems to happen some wait some bugger off at every given chance they can either a crash or rope jumping, would we all enjoy and do less moaning if the club was to be more forceful.
next thing who's going to want to refree all night:thumbdown:

[discostu]

you say the majority have spoke to you guys about the formats but that doesn't realy class as a CLUB vote we all pay our CLUB membership and we should all be asked or at least all gatherd together and have a vote that way. As for the old format working for 20 years this is probably because no other format has been tried. apart from changing fastest time to round by round.

[discostu]

can i put somthing into perspextive here we have six/seven car heats car 1 will start first car 7 will start 7th with a 1 second gap between which makes car 7, 6 seconds behind car 1 if we average 12 second laps car 7 will still be half a lap in front of car 1.

when barham touring car track was running the same format was in place but the difference was the track was 200yards long and the car were 4times faster we ran 10 car heats with a 1 second start gap and average a 12 second lap so from car 1 to car 10 there would be a 9 second gap so car 1 would only be 3 seconds behind car 10.

what im getting at the size of the track and the time we have on a wednesday eve makes no difference whatsoever.

i here you all scream saying there is less room for 7 cars in our small hall but there is only one racing line be it in our hall, barham touring car track or any race track in the world spa,silverstone,brands hatch,laguna sacher and so on.

what i feel is the all drivers need to be aware on how the qualifying works and understand it then there will be no issue.

stu

[discostu]

[QUOTE=gav4wd;412320]Both formats are good and bad.
the 2 qual and 1 final is more the normal format you would race anywhere
but in our small hall qual causes problems, if your first of within 1 ,2 laps you are then trying to lap some person just getting going he is reluctant to let you go why should they in the end a crash happens your qual fkd and his.


because they are not racing you and should let you though these drivers obviously dont understand how it works but like i also said you will be at least half a lap behind as they start now the ability of drivers in the top heat still varies at least 2 laps from fastest to slowest so you would be passing anyway.

the original format has the same issue if you think catching the slower cars an issue for the reason if you are on the front row its pretty likly you will be away and gone whilst the two rows behind get juggled by a marshal in the first corner pile up by this time the two guys on the front row are lapping. same problem.

stu

[gav4wd]

As i said in my previous post.

RULES!!!!
yes we have basic rules in the club but what happens if you break them nowt! maybe the person you wiped out or you jumped in front may say something or it gets well heated, and that then seems the way to race, i and many others in the club have raced or are racing at national and many other top series WHAT HAPPENS THERE!?.
yes i know this is a club and only fun but come on is it not time to harden up sort this problem out all what is beem moaned about is all based around shit arogant driving by all people im no angel and put my hands up to that, some drivers sometimes drive at all costs to win.
Maybe we need a club vote on some new rules and penaltys.
why is the winter series better driving and all have more fun

RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sfry61]

why is the winter series better driving and all have more fun

Because it's a better format. Simple