Entry fees

[Belsten]

I know I didnt attend the agm before anyone says it but I though this could be worthy of a little discussion on a public forum to gauge peoples OPINIONS

Entry fees in the WRCA seem pretty much set at £10 per class per meeting, is there a reason for it ? Just seems expensive as its the same price as a national meeting

[DCM]

I can answer that one, thats what got voted in at the AGM, so we are stuck with it for 12 months, and I know people don't want to hear it, but if you don't like it, turn up, propose and vote, I did state at the AGM, that if we were running national class meetings, on national class tracks, with big entries, then £10 per class (£5 for juniors) was acceptable, but personally felt a more realistic price was £6 per class. As I was the only one who thought that was a good idea, it didn't get through.

[Mikey G]

I can answer that one, thats what got voted in at the AGM, so we are stuck with it for 12 months, and I know people don't want to hear it, but if you don't like it, turn up, propose and vote, I did state at the AGM, that if we were running national class meetings, on national class tracks, with big entries, then £10 per class (£5 for juniors) was acceptable, but personally felt a more realistic price was £6 per class. As I was the only one who thought that was a good idea, it didn't get through.

Its a fact of life at the moment that things are getting a little more expensive. When you start to factor in the cost of land and equipment to maintain a track I think its fair we charge a fair price for entry for the clubs to benefit. If these regionals carry on being treated as national events then expect to pay a national price. If you want to stay at your club week in week out fair enough, then pay your club fees and be happy. I dont know anywhere that charges less than a tenner for any event these days and the summer nitro series that most of Talywain race at is £12 a round.

[gnr racer]

On a sidenote...personally i think £10 for running a 2nd class is over the top especially as last year running a 2nd class was an additional £5
Apparantly this was voted in at the agm (which i did attend) but i cant remember it being agreed...maybe i was asleep or munching on a spam sarnie

[Mikey G]

On a sidenote...personally i think £10 for running a 2nd class is over the top especially as last year running a 2nd class was an additional £5
Apparantly this was voted in at the agm (which i did attend) but i cant remember it being agreed...maybe i was asleep or munching on a spam sarnie

I thought the 2nd class for £5 still applied? but then again I have no intentions of doing a second class as I cant control my 1 entry as it is :lol: so I probably fell asleep or was eating at the AGM too...

[Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson]

All the ME regionals i've attended this year have been £8 :thumbsup:

[DCM]

it was proposed by Matt and seconded by Steve Axon...

A national is £10 an entry, we are not running to national level, so why should we pay national fee's is my attitude. We need to encourage people to attend the regionals, if they perceive them as too expensive (and as far as I am concerned, for outdoors, £10 is), then there will be lots who won't attend, let alone run a second class.

[Mikey G]

Every race I attend is not to national level (apart from the truggy nationals, 2 days, £20) and in the last 2 years I can only recall 2 or 3 days where I paid less than a tenner.
Not run to national level? Could have fooled me with the top dog barking the orders of vis vests in pits and staying on the rostrum. Shall we start to do scrutineering next?

My point is the WRCA are expecting to run the events very close to national BRCA rules and the price IMO seems to be a standard wherever I race even at non regional events.
I come from a background of motorsport and trackdays and paying £100-£1000 an event wasnt unusual so for me £10 for a days racing is a bargain..

[Si G]

As alluded to above, as the agm wasn't well attended, those who didn't attend (me included:blush:) will struggle to get support from those who did. However, from memory I think the agm was re-arranged relatively "late in the day" which didn't help attendance.

One thing I think should be considered is the disparity between the nitro and electric track-time despite them both costing the same.

Nitros have 3 qualifiers + practice, each quali is 5 mins plus 2+ mins warm-up, then a 20 min final = grand total of at least 46 mins track time (excluding bump-ups).

Electric is only 30 mins total including practice.

SO, I propose in advance of the next agm that whatever price is settled on, electric should be 2/3 the cost of nitro per entry. Please second it someone! :thumbsup:

[axeman]

£10 is not a lot
it could get you 7 1/2min of dirty phone sex!!!
15 bottles of bud
3 issues of razzle
12 condons
1 large dominos pizza

But me I would rather a days racing, and flashing my ass crack at you lot!!!:thumbsup:

[DCM]

Every race I attend is not to national level (apart from the truggy nationals, 2 days, £20) and in the last 2 years I can only recall 2 or 3 days where I paid less than a tenner.
Not run to national level? Could have fooled me with the top dog barking the orders of vis vests in pits and staying on the rostrum. Shall we start to do scrutineering next?

My point is the WRCA are expecting to run the events very close to national BRCA rules and the price IMO seems to be a standard wherever I race even at non regional events.
I come from a background of motorsport and trackdays and paying £100-£1000 an event wasnt unusual so for me £10 for a days racing is a bargain..

Right, lets get a couple of matters cleared up here....

High Vis vests... - as a nitro racer, you should have, as part of your equipement, a high vis vest, this is a must due to H&S, BRCA Insurance, and also, for the race director to determine who is who in the pit lane. Same goes for the 'no-smoking' too.

Right, difference between a 'national' run eveny, and our 'regionals', which, comared to how the bigger regions are run, is very lax. If we were to run to FULL regional rules (electric quoting now), on top of what we are doing....

Motor scrutineering
Battery scrutineering
transmitter pound
car scrutineering
track width
rostrum height (Talywain and Saundersfoot comply)
Rostrum length (Talywain and Saundersfoot comply)
Referee's

This is just off the top of my head, so when we have all this in place, at each club that holds a regional, then I will happily comply with the reasoning of the pricing @ £10, but in the meantime, the price is not justified. We are currently trying to pull people back in to attending our Regional series, but the price is off putting, as most who don't, either don't see the point in it, think it is costly etc. So by having a 'reasonable' entry fee, and clubs putting the effort in, to bring back the numbers, all you are doing is shooting yourself in the foot, short term gain, for no long term plan.

As much as I hate saying it, our region is seriously lacking in a lot of areas, some are within our control to change, and others aren't. If you were to ask me why I am on the committee, then my answer would be, to cultivate grass roots racing, to bring on more drivers who would then be willing to move up to compete at a regional level. To be able to do that, we have to have strong healthy clubs, and that gives strong healthy tracks, once those are in place, then the Regionals will be far better, as people will look forward to going, entries will increase, and racing will become more popular.

[Belsten]

I had a feeling that it was agreed at the agm hence the specific wording of my initial post

I didnt go so who am I to moan

I just wanted a discussion and to gauge peoples OPINIONS

Dont really want anyone getting on their horse and saying you didnt go so you dont have a right to have an opinion

Hmmm Mikey, national standard regionals ? Ive only done 1 out of the 2 regionals so far and from what I have experienced and heard, national standard it is not. Dont get me wrong, I am not knocking the excellent job that everyone does, I just feel that is a ridiculous comparison to make. Especially from an electric standpoint, what 10 entries per class at GNR ? Compared to 120 in each class at a national ?

Now being the seasoned hardcore racer I am, I have raced in a lot of regions over the years and have never, ever paid the same amount to race at a regional as I have at a national anywhere else other than here. £10 isnt a huge amount of money to me, £20 for each meeting (2 classes) over 6 regionals is £120. In all honesty does not inspire me, it wont stop me

The point of me raising it as a topic for DEBATE is more of a matter of principle and to gauge how other people FEEL.

If I was bringing my child in the hobby for the 1st time, it may make me think about it having already lashed out hundereds on competitive equipment

[DCM]

it is a debate that needs talking about, racing costs a lot for a lot of people, especially when they have money commitments elsewhere, by having high costs, you are forcing lots to think... regional or club... and lots are plumping for club racing.

And I am not going to condem people for not attending the AGM, but I think it may be worth getting more 'pre-organised' for the next AGM, so maybe an electronic vote can also be used, will have to discuss that. The more people who actively take part in a decision, the better an understanding of that the members want.

And I am with Dave, seasoned, been there, raced most of it.

[Dyna]

I suppose you could say a tenner isnt a lot in the grand scheme of things - you can spend more than that going to the movies these days for an hour and half of rubbish - but if the Nationals are charging that, i dont think our Regionals should be, just on principal. Our numbers are just too low.

Charging 7-8 quid per class seems nearer the mark to me. That extra 2-3 quid less looks a lot more on paper, if you see what i mean ?

I think once the next AGM is due, get it announced well before the date in every place possible. I missed last years as i didnt realy start racing again properly until this year, but i will be there if possible.

And Si G ? I'll second your suggestion of electrics being 2/3d the cost of Nitro if we are running 2/3s the track time ;) Unless of course we can run 3-leg finals like the top National Finals do for extra fun and get closer to the Nitro's run time :woot:

[ant west 71]

hi all, i know i dont have much say in this matter as i did not turn up for the AGM. but it would be nice to see the price lowered a little. 60 pound for a total of 3 hours racing toy cars seem a little extreme. ive two sons that want to race to, but had to push them into rc rock crawling, much easyier on my pocket. as i love racing i will pay the fee for myself, but thats as far as it goes while im out of work. as our children are the future for the sport i think it would not hurt if under 16s were free to help reel more people into the sport

[axeman]

One of the reasons I voted at the AGM to keep the cost at £10 was because last year and again this year it was the revenue from the WRCA rounds that keeps smaller clubs like GNR going.
Unfortunatly GNR / Talywain have to give up nearly Half of all entry fees to the land owners, It's just how it works.

GNR took £500 ish
Land owner £200
3 new lawnmowers £200
sand and cement for track £50
money left in club £50

But it was having that money that got us the mowers which will keep the club going another 12months

But I'm well behind Mr Dyna's Idea that juniors are free next year!!!

[DCM]

Ant, I got 5 kids, 3 are racing now, my youngest also wants to, and I don't begrudge paying half price for their entry, to be fair, but I have been selective as to which tracks I think they would manage.

If GNR is struggling, then it must look at it's own needs, why is it not making money/enough money, to operate on yearly basis, then fix it, the Regional should be a healthy income, not the life line of the club.

[peetbee]

Personally, I like the idea of reducing the cost of entering a 2nd class as this would hopefully encourage people to run 2 cars.
This would both increase the number of cars running, make the championship more interesting and generate a little more income for the clubs. If you have races with just a couple of cars it doesn't make it great from a spectators point of view.

It would be interesting to find out the proportion of drivers who currently enter two classes versus how many would run 2 cars if the price was halved for the 2nd class. (Even if it would disprove my theory!)

From Caldicot's point of view, it is unlikely that we will even cover our costs, but feel it is important to hold a round for the sake of the sport in Wales.

[minimatto]

As a track organiser I feel that if the WRCA fees are reduced then Talywain would not be inclined to hold an event.

We held 2 National events and a round of the 8-10 nitro series and the revenue earned from these events are between £800 to £1000 each event. As a round of the WRCA takes the same amount of work and preparation then why would we bother to hold an event that would bring in around £400.

I know we should be doing the regional to help the regional drivers, but so should the regional drivers help support the regional clubs.

Talywain is lucky as a club that gets to hold large events to help the finances, but there are other smaller clubs in Wales who need as much revenue from regional rounds to keep the club going.

As for dwindling numbers in the region, when was the last time we had an entry of 75 drivers like we did at Talywain for round 1, and yet i did get 1 complaint about the entry fee.

The Wrca committee and the Welsh clubs have worked hard over the past 2 years to revive the regionals, and it would be a pity to see it go down hill again over a few quid per person.

[peetbee]

Matt, to be fair about the dwindling numbers, that's in reference to 10th electric and the heady days of a regional getting 100+ drivers just for that class. (many years ago!)

It would be interesting to see how many people would enter a 2nd class if that was at a reduced rate, thus boosting overall income for the clubs.

Alternatively at the next AGM, the rule could be amended to be a maximum of £10 leaving clubs free to charge the amount applicable to their venue?

Just a couple of thoughts to provoke discussion!

[Dyna]

Some good points being raised here, and its nice to roughly know how much money is taken at a Welsh Regional and roughly how its spent. And although your minimum entry fee argument makes sense Matt, especially as you run a club & track, you can look at it another way. If the fees were slightly lower this should attract extra drivers. More drivers equals more entry fees ( albeit lower per head ) which should cover the less drivers/higher entry fee. If that were the case, i think most people would enjoy driving against more, varied people ?

Now im quite lucky in the fact i do have a bit of spare cash to spend on buggies, but i havent done two classes at our regionals this year for precisely that reason - i dont like the idea of paying 20 quid for two classes ! Call me tight if you want, but its the principal of the thing :lol: Im doing both at Caldicot because its my club, but i wont at the others. Lower it down a wee bit, not too much though, or offer 1/2 cost second class, and i bet you would have more people racing 2 classes....

Just my thoughts :)

[Craig]

As someone who races now and agian with buggys.

Last year at Swansea (wrca) I paid my lovely entry fee and well to be honest. If there was an episode of watchdog or Xray near by i would of complained.

If the wrca wants to charge national money, then start doing it like a national. Lets have some decent tracks, proper sizes and also some scruitneering.

At the moment the wrca looks a bit of a rip off, about £6-8 would be about right, saying that i only spend £4 to race touring cars at the cotswold and they're ground fees are very high. Lower the costs and get more people actually racing. Or just go for a flat fee of say £6 per class.

[Mikey G]

Maybe the WRCA should stop organising joing nitro/electric days as I can only see the electric boys moaning about 2 bloody quid...

[millzy]

In all the years I have done the WRCA I have always spoke about how we cant match other regions for the tracks and there professional running of the meeting

WRCA is a small fun regional championship that has tracks and drivers that range from National quality to club basher.

I would rather pay a Tenner and run in the WRCA around a flat track that was put out on bumpy ground with half cut grass with every one having a laugh than a fiver in one of the big serious clicky regions where you cant fart with out getting a stop go.

[DCM]

Maybe the WRCA should stop organising joing nitro/electric days as I can only see the electric boys moaning about 2 bloody quid...

The rational behind that, was that with standalone meetings, there were not enough drivers in both disciplines to make it worth while to hold the meeting. If we can bring numbers up, then we surely can have seperate events.

[c0sie]

Id rather pay a tenner and not race my electric on the same day as nitros....but im not Welsh...

[Mikey G]

Right, lets get a couple of matters cleared up here....

High Vis vests... - as a nitro racer, you should have, as part of your equipement, a high vis vest, this is a must due to H&S, BRCA Insurance, and also, for the race director to determine who is who in the pit lane. Same goes for the 'no-smoking' too.

Right, difference between a 'national' run eveny, and our 'regionals', which, comared to how the bigger regions are run, is very lax. If we were to run to FULL regional rules (electric quoting now), on top of what we are doing....

Motor scrutineering
Battery scrutineering
transmitter pound
car scrutineering
track width
rostrum height (Talywain and Saundersfoot comply)
Rostrum length (Talywain and Saundersfoot comply)
Referee's



A vis vest isnt going to save you from injury, education and common sense IS going to reduce the chance of an accident. Irresponsible marshalling should be punished just as much as bad driving. Again, I do not see vis vests in the pit lane at every event we do and it is not enforced, yet with 120 drivers in a decent well run series I have yet to see a serious accident because a pit man wasnt wearing a vis vest. I'm all for health and safety as I work in a manufacturing industry and I have certain responsibilities towards H&S myself. I repeat, a vis vest isnt going to save you if you jump out infront of a moving train...

Granted we dont do scrutineering but if the WRCA want to keep quoting BRCA rules then ignore half of them why do a half arsed job?

We keep our track at 4M width to comply with BRCA Nitro rules and only bring it down to 3M for the electric nationals.

[Mikey G]

The rational behind that, was that with standalone meetings, there were not enough drivers in both disciplines to make it worth while to hold the meeting. If we can bring numbers up, then we surely can have seperate events.

Thats the trouble, getting something going locally for a decent day with numbers is very difficult.

A previous poster touched on the subject of track time between the 2 and you can see us nitro boys do have more time on track.

I think the biggest issue over all this is the lack of electric members at the AGM's meaning us nitro people get a bigger say on certain aspects of the WRCA summer series, so only the electrics are to blame for not getting their voices heard and expressing THIER opinion on entry fees and general ruling. So unless more people make an effort then your summer regionals are going to continue to be set by mostly nitro racers.

[Dyna]

Maybe the WRCA should stop organising joing nitro/electric days as I can only see the electric boys moaning about 2 bloody quid...

Fair enough point, a couple of quid to some people is nothing really - but to others it is. Especially if you are on a tight racing budget, have a couple of kids racing and/or want to run more than one class. Then it all adds up... I think the points about attracting more drivers with slightly lower costs is valid. And the point made by Si G that electrics only run on the track for maybe 2/3rds the time as Nitro's for the same cost.

All good points to discuss - isnt that what this thread was started for ?

[peetbee]

I know I didnt attend the agm before anyone says it but I though this could be worthy of a little discussion on a public forum to gauge peoples OPINIONS

Mikey, you are quite right about the electrics not being represented at the AGM, but I see all this debate being good as it is likely to generate a higher turnout at the next AGM.

Prior to the next AGM surely we need to have these discussions and get a better understanding of what the clubs need, what the racers want and how to make sure we still have fun playing with our TOY cars!

[DCM]

Mikey, it is a BRCA sanctioned event, and where we have some leeway on rules, some rules we don't, like track fencing, marshall safety etc. If you were to have an accident in the pits, i.t. a car launching off the up ramp coming in to fuel, and you didn't have your hi-vis vest on, then you won't get an insurance claim. That comes from the BRCA, not the WRCA.

If people are unhappy with the fee's, then you have to raise this point, put proposals in. We all want the same thing, the WRCA to flourish, just we all got to push in the same direction.

[GRIFF55]

I think it should definately be cheaper to do a second class, that way you might get more people doing both. Also, it would be interesting to see what other regions are charging so as to stay in line with them.

[DCM]

other regions charge between £6-8

[GRIFF55]

there you have it then. Answer solved:lol::thumbsup:

[DCM]

oh I just so wish it was that simple lol!!

[Mikey G]

Mikey, it is a BRCA sanctioned event, and where we have some leeway on rules, some rules we don't, like track fencing, marshall safety etc. If you were to have an accident in the pits, i.t. a car launching off the up ramp coming in to fuel, and you didn't have your hi-vis vest on, then you won't get an insurance claim. That comes from the BRCA, not the WRCA.
You seem to be mis informed on the subject of insurance. Vis vests are a requirement at BRCA rallycross nationals, as we are not running nationals then its not a requirement for insurance. Not wearing one doesn't invalidate any insurance claims made and that is from the BRCA not my imagination kindly confirmed by Jim Spencer.

We are straying slightly off topic here....

[c0sie]

Mikey, are you on the WRCA Committee?

If not, you should be..I bet they'd appreciate your help.

[DCM]

Mike, I would STRONGLY advise you to read and digest your section rules (8th RallyCross), section 11, para [n]

[n] A maximum of two mechanics per driver will be allowed in the pit lane to assist
with repairs, refuelling, etc. All mechanics in the pit lane will be required to wear
luminous yellow jackets/bibs so that they are equally visible on the track as
marshals.

If you do not adhere to the rules laid down, in the BRCA handbook, if an incident happens, the Public Liability Insurance is null and void, as you have not conformed to the rules you have agreed to, when entering the meeting.

This is what really pisses me off, people say we are running a National quality meeting, yet people wish to pick and choose which bits of the handbook we use. I mean, I could pick apart meetings, disect them where they fail to meet the rules and regulations, but it still comes down to the fact, that if clubs just followed what is in the handbook, then that would be half the battle.

[Mikey G]

*sigh* typical "lalala i'm not listening so i'll quote the rule book..." response...

You earlier said:-

Mikey, it is a BRCA sanctioned event, and where we have some leeway on rules, some rules we don't, like track fencing, marshall safety etc. If you were to have an accident in the pits, i.t. a car launching off the up ramp coming in to fuel, and you didn't have your hi-vis vest on, then you won't get an insurance claim. That comes from the BRCA, not the WRCA.


I contacted Jim Spencer... My original email is below his response.

=============================

Hi Michael

No it doesn't, the requirements at Nationals can and do vary from section to section and class to class and definatly when compared to club meetings.

Best regards

Jim

---- Michael Green <me at some email .com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
>
> Can you answer me a simple question please. In Rallycross nationals
> you are required to wear a High Vis Jacket in the pit lane and general
> track area such as marshalling. Does this mean that the insurance
> provided by the BRCA is invalid if a High Vis jacket is not used in
> the pit lane at local regional events and club days?
>
>
>
> Much appreciated
>
>
>
> Mike


===========================


Like I said we are off the original subject now but lets not let that get in the way of a good argument....

[DCM]

OK, take it up with the Chairman, and the 8th PRO Rep, and come back to me with what they say, as I am darn sure they will say exactly what I have said. Or should we all run meetings in the ilk of the 810 series?

[Dyna]

With respect guys, while im sure this is an important point to find out & clarify at somepoint soon, it seems to be sliding away somewhat from the original point of the thread... ?

Cant we just get everyone talking again about their general views on WRCA Regional entry costs and leave the individual details until the AGM, or at least keep it to different thread ?

[DCM]

agreed, I would suggest then, that as it can't be changed till the AGM, we find out what people are willing to pay.

[mdb_75]

I was surprised when in the queue at Taly for round one when I heard people being charged £10 to enter and then shocked when the guy infront of me was charged £20 to do two classes!! :o

I was going to enter two, but that changed my mind along with the warning that if you did two classes you'd get penalised if you were racing in your 2nd class when you should be marshaling for your 1st!

The Mid West regionals that I've done have charged £5 and £6 depending on the club which is a bargain! £10's too much in my opinion anywhere inbetween would be ok.

[minimatto]

I was going to enter two, but that changed my mind along with the warning that if you did two classes you'd get penalised if you were racing in your 2nd class when you should be marshaling for your 1st!

I think the marshalling issue arouse last year when the electric boys didnt want to marshall for the nitro, so it was agreed that electric marshall themselves and the same with nitro. This does mean that sometimes you will have to marshall or get a relief marshall even if you are in the next heat, this has happened to both electric and nitro, but moreso electric as they tend to race 2wd and 4wd.

I can understand where mikeyg is coming from about the rules as it seems the WRCA likes to adhere to some of the rules, then overlooks others.

If the WRCA want to run the regionals to the same standard as the Nationals then the WRCA themselves should run each event, supplying timing, PA equipment, central booking in, official timekeeper, official referee, sructineering equipment. Then it should be the club who helps run the meet doing sructineering and track maintenance. So who on the WRCA committee would like to offer their services to fill the above positions and give up their days racing for each event.

[DCM]

The areas where I accept that if we were to be kept tight on the rules, like the EB motor and cell list, it would push some racers away, who don't have homologated kit. But as Matt says, some things come down to the fact that we don't have the manpower to do everything.

re: Marshalling, if you race, you expect to be marshalled, so it is up to you to ensure there is a Marshall in your slot, for your turn at Marshalling, if we allow Mr X not to Marshall, cause he is booked in to two heats, then how are we to ensure others do, oh, my cars broken etc....

[Body Paint]

Maybe those who have hi-jacked this thread to talk about, I mean argue about nitro rules could go and start another thread?

WRCA is too expensive for me. That's why I aint at them this year. I had time booked off work and the wifes busy DIY schedule was cleared in readyness for the egm to argue this exact ruling, then at the last minute the EGM got moved to a date I couldn't do, ah well.

Other regions charge between £4 and £8 for Electric regionals. Many only run one class per event.

It takes the same amount of work to organise a meeting regardless if people race 1, 2 or 3 classes so why should we pay so much for entries?

Some ideas:

If Nitros have such different ideas on what should be done then why should we be governed by the same rules?

Maybe Electric and Nitro sections should decide their own race fees, race formats etc.?

Maybe Electric and Nitro sections should have seperate AGMs or seperate meetings at the AGM? Similar to the main BRCA AGM.

Thoughts please ;-)

[Jamie.T]

^^^^Spot on Craig. Its impossible to run electric and nitro under the same rules, theres just to many differences. One of the main points which has been isued is the difference in track time.

Therefore race fee's i feel should be different. The reason i haven't attended any WRCA meetings so far is cost. Not only the fact i live so far away and have to spend on fuel getting to the event, but race fess. If i was to travel over an hour away to an event, id like to make the most of it and run 2 or 3 classes, but at £10 per class its a joke.

My 2 pennies worth,

Jamie.......

[blue_pinky]

I think that we should set separate prices that are appropriate to each section.

Nitros may find £10 per class acceptable, and that is totally fine, but the electric section accross the UK definately has a lower price, as proven by a number of posts in this thread.

Another thought, do Nitro racers run in more than one class on a day? Maybe the 2 class cost thing is an electric only problem? Does running 2 classes of electric equate to more track time than 1 class of nitros?

Either way, we should be looking to get our regional events priced comparably to the other regions in both classes and making sure that price works for all the clubs involved.

For me I've not entered 2 classes this year because I don't want to pay £20 for a stressful day's racing! Running 2 cars on this level of turnout would be less fun for me!

But if the number of people who have said they would run 2 classes if it was cheaper had entered 2 classes, that might have increased the number of heats and reduced that stress to acceptable levels! :thumbsup:

Does anyone in the WRCA have any idea on the entry numbers from last year verses this year? Has it increased at all?

If the electric entry numbers are growing, then maybe reduced entry, for more numbers and more classes raced makes it more (or at just as) financially viable for the clubs to run them?

Maybe it's time for another thread for general WRCA / AGM discussion!

[gnr racer]

As I said at the beginning of this thread I paid £20 to run 2 classes but out of principal I wont be doing it again.

[madcrazybonkers]

If the WRCA want to run the regionals to the same standard as the Nationals then the WRCA themselves should run each event, supplying timing, PA equipment, central booking in, official timekeeper, official referee, sructineering equipment. Then it should be the club who helps run the meet doing sructineering and track maintenance. So who on the WRCA committee would like to offer their services to fill the above positions and give up their days racing for each event.

Going back to when i was racing many moons ago which ever club's round it was who ever ran the club did not race that round and ran the round properly well the best they could.
Many times i did not race the caldicot round cos i would be the one sat there handing out transponders and scrutineering.
So your telling me and others who read this that nothing is checked so you can cheat all day long im sorry but it should be ran upto BRCA rules as thats what the regionals are for to qualify for the nats.

As for costs i agree that £10 for 25 mins of race time is a lot it used to be £6.50 so £7 and 2nd class half price sounds good to me cos if its going to stay at the £10 mark then im better off doing nitro and getting 1hr ish race time.

[Belsten]

The reason I started this thread was to gauge peoples opinions on the entry fees to race in the wrca
It has nothing to do with volume of track time for nitro versus electric or anything like that, its to do with the principle of paying the same amount to race in the wrca as a brca national, nothing else
Tis getting a little boring with people saying you didnt attend the agm so you have no right to voice an opinion, I do, and thats the reason why I said it in my 1st post, like I said boring :yawn:

[axeman]

Well I've just got home from weekends racing in weston park to see you guys have been very busy!! Mr belsten what have you started!!:)

There are some good points on both sides..

And I am realy looking forwards to the next AGM, I feel that this year has woken up the electric boys, And I do believe more will make an effort to attened the AGM not leaving it one person to represent them. I wouldn't like to have a seperate electric AGM at this early stage on WRCA, We are only just starting getting good numbers at our events.

My ideas:-

Electrics run 3 legged A finals (more value for money)
Free entry to junior WRCA club members as long as they are with a parent who is paying full rate.
GNR to run seperate electric and nitro event due to damage causted but big nasty nito cars to the grass track.
2nd class to be half price!


I still do believe that £10 is a fair rate for a days racing..
no-one person benifits from this money. the money only goes on developing and improving local clubs in Wales.

[Belsten]

I know what a bad boy I am :woot::thumbsup::woot:

Some good suggestions there Stevey boy

At the end of the day I think the only thing the majority of us want is to improve and increase the racing in Wales

[Dyna]

I think were all roughly on the same page with similar ideas... i have a feeling the next WRCA AGM might well be better supported by us electric's... :)

I do like Steve suggestion of 3 leg finals - but this would probably only work if it was an electric only regional, trying to fit all that in with the Nitros as well would mean something like a 7am start... and i dont do mornings :lol:

But if we could get numbers back up to run just electric regionals, i think that might be a corker of a thing to do and feasable timewise and give people more track time :)

Athough i do know the entry dosh only goes towards the clubs and the benefit of us all, you do have to have percieved value-for-money these days - and possibly the ideas above would give the added incentive to attend & race :) But as the format is atm, i still say a tenner is too much for each class.

Ohhh this could be a good AGM coming up later in the year... :thumbsup:

[Dyna]

Ive just been on Scotlands section here on o0ple and found what they are running...

Booking-in between 8.30-9.30
Practice between 9.00-10.00
Heat 1 on the line for 10.15

4 rounds with "Round by Round" qualifying
3 finals with 2 to count

2WD will run first with a gap then the 4WD heats, aiming for an hour per round.

8 car finals

If the day needs shortened due to weather etc we will drop number of finals, still two to count.



Hmmm 3-leg finals... if Scotland can do it then so should we... :thumbsup:

[axeman]

See I'm not just a racing god!!!
somtimes I talk sense...:thumbsup:

[DCM]

Only sometimes, Steve :lol:

[ant west 71]

4 heats and 3 finals sounds bloody good to me. very happy paying a tenner for that. got my vote all the way:thumbsup:.

[minimatto]

Great idea on seperating electric and nitros, but exactly how many clubs in Wales are electric only clubs.

If I remember rightly its 2, Caldicot and Cobra.

So the remaining clubs would have to agree to take 2 days out of their calender to run 2 seperate events. And like I said before Talywain will be very busy next year and wether we would be able to do that I dont know.

Maybe we would have to choose either electric or nitro event.

[blue_pinky]

Yep, I realised this yesterday when I was posting...electric and nitro are still going to have to work together on the calender side of things as we are very much reliant on the combined tracks for venues at the moment.

One thought did occur to me though, would making them separate days make it easier to schedule? Each event is then only avoiding other events of the same class rather the combined regional having to avoid clashing with 2 classes worth of calenders?

[DCM]

It would make it a lot easier to Schedule, as really, with the electric, we only have to miss 10th Nationals, but with the 8th side of things, there are other meetings they want to avoid clashing with, to keep numbers up.

[peetbee]

That's what I was trying to draw attention to in my post on this topic:
http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48389

[dorris]

I was present at the WRCA AGM where the £10 fee per class was introduced... it was a blanket £10 per class with no concessions for a second class or juniors. I argued strongly against the fee as it seriously penalised families with a number of children but was voted down. The subsequent AGM then introduced a reduction to £5 for juniors but the senior fee remained at £10 with no concession for a second class.

It was done partly because the intention was to hold only two regional meets, one West and one East and that they were self-financing, stand alone meets with a full set of trophies for each, paid for through the elevated race fees and organised for the meet by the host club. The only results of any import to be combined were for the electrics as they would be used to work out licences for Nationals. It was hoped that these two regionals would be prestige events with decent turn-outs and a big meet feel but that didn't happen.

Some sections of the WRCA stated that this was not enough and even started a rival summer series and effectively boycotted the two planned regionals... effectively rendering those two rounds little more than biggish club meets...!!!

Seeing as now the calendar boasts six rounds there is little justification for these elevated fees as the idea of stand alone trophy meets/regionals with the various trophies etc. has gone out the window.

As long as a club covers its running and meet set-up costs then that should be the criteria for setting the race fee. Charging full whack for a second class is profiteering to my mind, whereas 50% of the race fee for a second class is reasonable.

[Mikey G]

I agree juniors should get a reduced entry fee, the second class fee can be debatable. Being a nitro racer I have no intention of running a second class unless it is electric as nitro requires so much more of your time to prepare and the requirments of a pit crew tends to mean you need help from others as much they need help from you too so sometimes means you have no time at all to run a second class.
Second classes tend to be more of a problem in the electrics as a lot of drivers try to run 2wd and 4wd on the same day, if you are running 2 or more classes then you are responsible for organising a relief marshall not the club. So if you dont have a marshall in position as you are busy racing then you can expect to get punished for it.
I have noticed a lot of regionals run 2wd and 4wd on seperate events but then they may well have the numbers to be able to do this.

I can understand the need for the electrics to run to more stringent rules in regionals for licence purposes but us nitro racers are only there to make up the numbers on the day and to have a days racing. I would prefer to have a relaxed club day not having to worry about vis vests and staying on the rostrum till the finish rubbish, I dont have to do a licence and dont intend to do a national at the moment so I dont like to have it rammed down my throat at every event I do in my club.

The nitro racers of south wales at least seem to work together well and want the best out of the days racing, it looks like the electric side of the clubs need to work on this though.

We at Talywain need to start getting our club days organised because at the moment we only seem to be doing large national size meets and regionals. I just want to go racing and have fun in doing so but I cant do that if i'm constantly watching over my shoulder incase I upset someone because i'm a rebel nitro racer...

I know this post could have also gone in the other thread but as the discussion relates to the reasoning behind entry fees I feel it is all relevant.

[DCM]

I just want to go racing and have fun in doing so but I cant do that if i'm constantly watching over my shoulder incase I upset someone because i'm a rebel nitro racer...

Right, I really do take offence to that. Nobody makes you do the regional series, if memory serves me right, we are the only region offering the opportunity for you to do so too. If your club doesn't hold regular club days, then you need to take it up with your club. Regional racing series are a stepping stone between how you operate and think at a club level and how things happen at a national level.

Now, if you don't feel that following BRCA rules is your thing, then there is the 810 series for you to do too, if Nationals are not your thing. As the meeting is run under the BRCA banner, certain things have to be adhered to.

As for common courtesy things, like not running up and down on the rostrum whilst others are running, well, stuff like that, is just that, common courtesy.

As for the poll that I generated, it had nothing what so ever to do with Electric/Nitro at any point. I gave a payment scale from the cheap to the expensive, and for those who wish to mix up their racing, the second class option.

[Mikey G]

Right, I really do take offence to that.

And there ladies and gentlemen my point has been proven. I will not do the regional series for the rest of this year, I dont enjoy it, and I will not be actively promoting it anymore. And not once have I refered to the 8th10 series myself yet you seem to be quoting it a lot. I'm sure Glyn would take some offence to your opinions on how he runs his highly succesfull race series.

[dorris]

Whilst this is a thread about race fees I fully agree that you marshal after you drive and if you enter more than one class you should cover the marshalling for all your entries or take a penalty.....

However, do you not think it unfair to levy a full fee on a second class if it was voted in by members who do not run second classes (as you have said... it is stressful to say the least trying to run two nitro classes) and therefore would have little impact on them when it does have a serious impact on those that do. That's a bit like dyed-in-the-wool electric runners voting on only 10% nitro fuel.

COBRA manage to only charge one race fee irrespective of however many classes you enter... providing of course you fulfil your marshalling duties. Everyone is happy and the turnouts to club meets are increasing.

With regards to relaxed club days and hi-viz bibs, staying on the rostum etc. it may be down to the club to relax BRCA rules for it's members, however the club must comply with the 13 General Rules as stated by the BRCA to insure it is covered by the 3rd party insurance. Any flagrant breach of these will invalidate a claim even if the breach has nothing to do with the claim.

....back on topic and race fees - It is my general feeling that the WRCA should hold a meeting with representatives of the member clubs, say two from each club to set the race fee rather than have a free-for-all vote where a club can turn out mob handed and force their wishes through a vote at the WRCA AGM simply by virtue of numbers they bring as has happened in the past. One club one vote rather than twenty because the whole club turned up in a bus.

[DCM]

Mike, I was mearly pointing out other options for you, if you feel the WRCA is heavy handed in the way it expects meetings to be run.

If you run a race meeting, that is relying on the BRCA public liability insurance, then don't follow the general rules, your claim is invalidated, it then falls on the shoulders of the Race Director/Chairman of that club. If your club is willing to accept that risk, that is purely up to your club, not the WRCA or the BRCA.

Race Fee's, I think you got a point there, maybe it is worth asking the clubs chairmperson's to ask their club drivers how much they feel is a fair and reasonable price?

[peetbee]

I have noticed a lot of regionals run 2wd and 4wd on seperate events but then they may well have the numbers to be able to do this. They do indeed, I wish we did too.

I can understand the need for the electrics to run to more stringent rules in regionals for licence purposes but us nitro racers are only there to make up the numbers on the day and to have a days racing. I would prefer to have a relaxed club day not having to worry about vis vests and staying on the rostrum till the finish rubbish, I dont have to do a licence and dont intend to do a national at the moment so I dont like to have it rammed down my throat at every event I do in my club. There are several differences between nitro and electric rules that seem to be catered for ok already (number of rounds, length of finals, etc) so I'm sure something can be worked out in the case of joint meetings

The nitro racers of south wales at least seem to work together well and want the best out of the days racing, it looks like the electric side of the clubs need to work on this though.
Yes we do! But we all want the best out of the days racing too:cry:

[Dyna]

I agree juniors should get a reduced entry fee, the second class fee can be debatable.

Agreed. Thats what we are trying to work on here, get peoples opinions. We dont have to get a definitive answer here and right now, just see what people think and why.

Second classes tend to be more of a problem in the electrics as a lot of drivers try to run 2wd and 4wd on the same day, if you are running 2 or more classes then you are responsible for organising a relief marshall not the club. So if you dont have a marshall in position as you are busy racing then you can expect to get punished for it.

Again i agree, and if the organisers seem to be good enough to try to seperate you into corresponding heats so you can race both 2 & 4wd AND marshall yourself, we are onto a winner. If the numbers arent big enough so you cant do this and you cant find a relief marshall then some kind of punishment should in theory be awarded. But also, we are trying to get as many people racing in all the classes so some kind of leeway or understanding ought to be realised. Good point for discussion now and at the next AGM i think ?

I can understand the need for the electrics to run to more stringent rules in regionals for licence purposes but us nitro racers are only there to make up the numbers on the day and to have a days racing.

Heres where misunderstanding starts for me. I did not realise the Nitro drivers werent driving for points in a series, a BRCA ranking or anything like that when we all attend a WRCA Regional ( Nitro & Electric ). And frankly i doubt most of the electric drivers did/do either - bar the ones who are commitee members or club officials. Maybe this is where the idea of a better website, regulary updated & more relevent information and regulary updated forums comes into play ?

I would prefer to have a relaxed club day not having to worry about vis vests and staying on the rostrum till the finish rubbish, I dont have to do a licence and dont intend to do a national at the moment so I dont like to have it rammed down my throat at every event I do in my club.

As far as the vis vests goes, i really think its time someone gets a written answer from someone high up in the BRCA about this and settle the reasons for it once and for all. It seems to be coming up in every thread on here atm... As far as "staying on the rostrum till the finish rubbish" i, and im sure most other drivers, agree with DCM - its common courtisy not to disturb other drivers if you are unlucky enough to not be able to continue in the race - i personally dont even leave the rostrum at clubnights if i break let alone Regionals...

Fair enough about you not wanting to do Nationals at the moment, but what happens when and if you DO want to ? Would you be happy for the 5 minute H&S briefing and high viz vests then ? And as far as i can see, at your own Tally club this year there's been one joint 'fun' meet and one joint Regional, plus the electric Nats for one weekend. I honestly dont quite see where the " I dont like to have it rammed down my throat at every event I do in my club " comes from. If im wrong and theres more going on at Tally in joint electric/Nitro then i know about and every other weekend you are getting it rammed down your throat, then i apologise and its just a good point for more information and club interaction ! If not, then i suggest you do speak to your club about it direct and explain to them you want more relaxed club days and less stringent racing and H&S rules ?

The nitro racers of south wales at least seem to work together well and want the best out of the days racing, it looks like the electric side of the clubs need to work on this though.

I agree. You guys & gals DO seem to have got your act together better than us electrics. We should learn from that tbh. First off to find out what we, as electrics, want out of racing. If its just relaxed racing, regionals, large weekenders, practicing & training whatever - we do need to work this one out. Theres another one for the WRCA website hub & forums... ;)

We at Talywain need to start getting our club days organised because at the moment we only seem to be doing large national size meets and regionals. I just want to go racing and have fun in doing so but I cant do that if i'm constantly watching over my shoulder incase I upset someone because i'm a rebel nitro racer...

Again this one confuses me due to the reasons from a point or two above. Please explain how doing one joint regional and one joint fun meet is our ( as electrics ) fault for you having to watch over your shoulder?? I think this one is more to do with your internal club politics than anything else ? If not, please explain. Although by the looks of what Minimatto has said you might just get your wish of more relaxed Taly Nitro clubdays next year, if the calender is looking as full as he says ?


I have to say this might look like im picking on Nitros here ( as you are one of the few Nitro people saying anything, and as i think o0ple is mostly electric based ), but im not and i honestly dont think any of the other electric guys are either.

Dave Belsten started the Regional cost thread ( i think ) for the electric side of things - not the Nitros. He has been racing for a looong time and was quite justifiably entitled to ask a simple question about the fees. Then other threads followed quickly, mostly i think, directed at the electric side of things, not the nitros.

Then somehow i feel it suddenly has become an issue for nitro people to think we are picking on the nitros, which just isnt the case. As i said in a different post, atm we need each other for a decent size meeting and to save costs. Hopefully in the future BOTH classes can grow to a bigger level where we CAN run seperate meetings, with maybe one joint meet each year to keep the classes in touch with each other.

I think the only justifiable gripe from us electrics about joint regionals with nitros occured at just GNR - and that was the nitros cutting up the track... badly. Most electrics had at least one car breakage once the nitors started. At Taly it didnt happen due to the astro. The main gripe there was us waiting over 2 hours for our finals whilst watching you guys & gals have 2 hours of fun, then us only being able to run later on after you finshed. This was explained to us later on that it was due to the noise curfew the nitros have. Fair enough, we didnt like it but we eventually understood. And it didnt happen at GNR due to that experience, and i very much doubt it will happen again this year.

As a side point, I have to say in all seriousness, Axeman is the BEST representative of Nitros i could imagine to us electric drivers. Steve is passionate about his Nitros, but understands about where electrics are coming from as well - he started i believe on electrics years ago and is now playing around with them again with that ( sometimes unguided ! ) missile of a purple B44. He honestly never seems to be biased in anyway for either class, but appreciates both for what they offer. His attitude to the different classes is something ALL of us should follow tbh - we would all get on a lot better if we did.

Oh and if it makes anyone happy, three of us electrics watched the Taly nitro buggy final and it was once of the best races weve seen. Brilliant driving, watching 1st, 2nd and 3rd catch up with each other, pass, re-pass and in the case of one of them, break down just as he was passing for 1st if i remember correctly... It ALMOST made me want to have a go at Nitro... :lol:

Lastly, thank you Dorris for explaining in a bit more detail what happened at the AGM for the reasons regarding the £10.00 entry fees. If we had known that a couple of days ago there might have been a lot less posts and arguments.... ! It would be great to see the minutes of that meeting though, to finally clarify certain points... ;)

Ok, ive said my long piece. For now. I expect im going to get a ripping apart from just about everyone now... :lol:

[Mikey G]

First off I want to point out that i'm not the one who keeps keeping this subject off the original course of discussion ;)
Yes we do run for points in the WRCA series, just as in any other series. My point was the reason for the regionals electric wise is for licences to help qualify for the BRCA national series something that is not required for us nitro racers. If I want to do rallycross nationals then i'll simply put an entry in for them and I will abide by the rules that the BRCA put down for me to compete in the national series.
Talywain has run 2 BRCA national events this year, 1/10th off road and Truggy Nationals. The vis vest rule for the truggy nationals was not enforced, for the simple reason because it doesnt need to be enforced. If you check back on my previous posts in this subject you will see I have already contacted a BRCA Executive member on the issue and he has informed me that vis vests are not an issue required for insurance purposes. All UK affiliated clubs are BRCA insured so the vis vest pit lane issue (yes i'll keep on about it..) is one of the rules that doesnt get pushed onto the clubs as a requirment to comply with the policy, if that was the case then every club day in the UK has been run illegally.
As with the staying on the rostrum thing, again it seems to stem from electric rules with people getting disturbed when others are walking past behind them. On a nitro rostrum in all the noise and the cursing at your pit man because he is too interested in the totty near the fence I think someone walking behind you is the last thing on your mind :lol:

[Belsten]

this thread is ace, im glad I started it :woot:

[GRIFF55]

one of your better ones ya poop stirrer:woot:

good reading isn't it

[Dyna]

On a nitro rostrum in all the noise and the cursing at your pit man because he is too interested in the totty near the fence I think someone walking behind you is the last thing on your mind :lol:

LOL i wondered why the pit men all have funny smiles on their faces... :lol:

Mikey, aplogies if my post appeared personal to you or Nitros. Points taken. I can see it from your point of view too, but i think its good to get things out in the open sometimes, and it can only push us ALL forward if understood & used in the right way :)

Now back on thread... ;)

[DCM]

Oh and if it makes anyone happy, three of us electrics watched the Taly nitro buggy final and it was once of the best races weve seen. Brilliant driving, watching 1st, 2nd and 3rd catch up with each other, pass, re-pass and in the case of one of them, break down just as he was passing for 1st if i remember correctly... It ALMOST made me want to have a go at Nitro... :lol:

STREWTH, I hope you had your jabs after that and before last Sunday.... we even touched skin.... :lol:

[peetbee]

My point was the reason for the regionals electric wise is for licences to help qualify for the BRCA national series something that is not required for us nitro racers.
The majority of electric are doing the same as you though Mikey, just racing in Wales. The electric nationals don't require qualifying although the better the licence grade the better the heat you get into at a national (in theory at least!) as a result there are only 3 or 4 drivers also doing nationals this year.

In an attempt to get more nitro representation I did go and post a link over on the Swansea forum earlier today!!

Now that we are starting to understand each others chosen motive power better it appears that we have a lot more in common than you first see. And where there are differences at least we understand them!:woot:

[Col]

I live in North Yorkshire, so feel free to utterly disregard anything I say below...

We pay £8 per class in the N/E. Currently we race 1 class per day, but numbers are dwindling (because the N/W race 2 classes per day so drivers are going there)
There is no reduced fee (nor ever has been?) for racing 2 classes.

I'm not sure I unserstand the need for a Wales specific governing body. Is in not sooo much simpler to run as a region under the BRCA? (runs and hides...)

What the hell is the problem with Hi-Vis vests? It's not like they're a straight jacket... Just put it on and stop moaning!

Great reading thread with some obviously intelligent an well thought out posts (until this one... Sorry)

[DCM]

lol, Col, the WRCA is like your NE Region, we are the BRCA's Welsh Region.

[hywel]

Right Gentlemen and Ladies of the WRCA a nice lively debate and some very interesting points, Belston im going to kill you next time I see you [lol]
As chairman of the Wrca we have not tried to rip any one off with the entry fees. That was the figure agrred by the members who attended the AGM.
The date set for the Agm was in accordance with the Wrca constitution We were unable to hold it on the date set so a later date was set Im glad to see that your all looking forward to this years i will later in the year open a post on the wrca web site for them so keep thinking
With regard to holding seperate meetings for electric and nitros thats fine if you have the numbers iv e been involved with the Wrca events for approx 15 years and have seen a drop off in electric numbers to a point where we had 3 2wds and 6 4 wd running in a regional series so thats when the nitros were brought in and they kept the Wrca going .
It is nice to see the electric numbers growing again and hopefully we can then run seperate meetings until then we carry on as we are
WITH regards to some off the comments regarding the rules we try to do things as close to the book as possible but when you read them for each section about the only thing they agree on is No
smoking on the track or the pits,,,,,,
So please be patient we might get it right for every one one day [lol]

one final note if you are going to argue do it by Pm not on an open forum please

[axeman]

H please don't bring this debate to an end!!! I was just starting to get addicted to it.. Big Brother has nothing on this, I need to read who is voted out next!!!:):):)

It is so good to see all this positive energy in the WRCA.

One thing which is concerning me, is the number of people who will be attending the next WRCA meeting.

Will there be enough food???
Can we get more food ordered???
Will there be enough for seconds???

[DCM]

I thought you might of still been eating the load that you hoarded at the last one, Steve!! :lol:

[peetbee]

one final note if you are going to argue do it by Pm not on an open forum please
But H, Harris even started a new thread for everyone to go and argue with Steve!!:woot:

[DCM]

Then in true French tradition, ran away and hid!!

[big dave]

Been reading though the post's in this thread. there are some really good points here, and im sure we should book a full day for the next wrca agm as im sure this will really get bashed out.

But my opinion is.........

a Reginal is the steping stone before the nationals. we run our clubs at around £5-£6 race fees, then we set our reginals at £10, that way when we travel to larger events or nationals we don't get a big shock of the cost differnce.
to help the WRCA to grow more, then i would agree we should half the price of the second class, to encourage more drivers to run a second class, and even halfing that again to a 3rd class.
ive noticed more younger drivers so far this year as the child fee has been halfed.

But the main issue is the revenue for clubs in wales. the clubs need these large event incomes. The cost of equipment, and maintenance fees, are not cheep. Wales is too small to have large clubs with 100+ members filling the bank with money, our clubs are small numbers, so race fees and membership fees are not enough to help develop a club to better things.

Swansea has lost it's track at the elba due to noise. We have had to pay for planning permission, Drawings to made of our area of land we want to develop, then we need to find more money to move our containers and track marking. that before we buy fence and build a track. Swansea is a club in wales that runs a reginal round of the WRCA. the £10 we all pay for 1 days racing goes to things like this. if we half the income from the round, then what will happen to the clubs that rely on the income each year. As said before GNR has bought 2 mowers from the income, so the club has improved, so all they need now is training to learn how to use them :p.

We all would like to save money where we can, and i bet most pepole would put there hands up to saving it on race fees, but you need to remember where the money goes. it goes back to you. as i mean the clubs of wales.

[Dyna]

To a point i agree, but as i said earlier, and from what other people have said, if you lower the cost slightly you should get more people attending.

Its better in my mind to have more people competing at a lower cost than less people at a higher cost if the eventual takings are the same :)

[big dave]

To a point i agree, but as i said earlier, and from what other people have said, if you lower the cost slightly you should get more people attending.

Its better in my mind to have more people competing at a lower cost than less people at a higher cost if the eventual takings are the same :)


True!. that is one way of doing it. but you can't garentee there will be more numbers attending. The WRCA is currently growing. only 2 years ago, we were lucky to see more than 20 drivers. the £10 fee has been in place for nearly 3 years. with the current numbers each club will have a good income.

We could reduce the fees by £2 to £8, then that loss in revenue over a 12 month period, could be the cost of a new mower for that club, or pa speaker, so when the grass is too long or we cant hear the pa properly. we can say, if we had short grass and the pa was clear, i would pay an extra £2.

really i think a compromise would be the reduced second class. £20 or £30 for one days racing is steep. but come on guys £10 for a days racing, is it really that much money.

[GRIFF55]

£10 for a days racing is fine steve, but when you are doing 2 classes its not £10!! Also, you being a nitro guy, get alot more track time. If it were worked out on the ammount of track time, then you would be forking out 100 notes for a days racing! (still worth it??)

[Dyna]

True!. that is one way of doing it. but you can't garentee there will be more numbers attending. The WRCA is currently growing. only 2 years ago, we were lucky to see more than 20 drivers. the £10 fee has been in place for nearly 3 years. with the current numbers each club will have a good income.

We could reduce the fees by £2 to £8, then that loss in revenue over a 12 month period, could be the cost of a new mower for that club, or pa speaker, so when the grass is too long or we cant hear the pa properly. we can say, if we had short grass and the pa was clear, i would pay an extra £2.

really i think a compromise would be the reduced second class. £20 or £30 for one days racing is steep. but come on guys £10 for a days racing, is it really that much money.


Again i sort of agree with you - remember im only talking about electric rather than Nitro here, as i think most of us are.

Example though. At GNR we had 14 2wd and 8 4wd ( think there was one or two more, but that strange interference problem cut a couple of peoples racing short at the end and didnt run the finals ) at 10 quid per head thats 220 quid. If that had been cut to 8 quid per head that wouldve been 176 quid. A difference of 44 quid.

BUT, if that wad been so im pretty sure 3 or 4 of us would've ran 2 classes, and maybe a couple more who didnt come wouldve, getting us back up to the 220 or therabouts. Or of course the second class half price idea. Its all to do with how it LOOKS for value for money. I could go on about marketing and price breaks, but i would bore you all to death :lol:

And of course, as far as i know each club only runs one electric Regional each year, so thats not exactly a huge loss of income even in the worse case senario is it ?

As as been said before somewhere in the threads here, if the meeting WERE a little better - clear PA's, immaculate tracks etc etc then yes the higher fees would be worth it. And of course the bug-bear of the extra track time that Nitros have over the electrics makes your fees of the same cost BETTER value for money that we experience at the moment. Dont you agree there ?

As Griff says, if it were down to just track time Nitros would be paying substantially more than electrics per meeting....

[big dave]

£10 for a days racing is fine steve, but when you are doing 2 classes its not £10!! Also, you being a nitro guy, get alot more track time. If it were worked out on the ammount of track time, then you would be forking out 100 notes for a days racing! (still worth it??)


you forgetting a wrca is not only summer. its also winter. and i do run electric and i do pay £10. its still a days racing you pay for. not how much track time you get. im all for reducing the second class. even £15 for two classes is not that steep for a reginal event.
if i cut with my nitro engine, 2mins into every run, does that mean i can ask for some of money back as electric drivers had more track time. so track time will never come into it. it cant be helped that the race formatt for nitro has been made longer by its govening body. if electric drivers feel they need more track time at brca run events, they should sort it out at the top with the brca sections. this discusion was about how we feel about paying £10 to race at a reginal. i was only pointing out where the money goes, as to think of that, before fees get reduced and clubs dwindle away.
there are so many good points on here. but the track time argument is crap. its just that electric v nitro divde rubbish.
so basically as i run nitro only, i get more track time, due to me having a longer set final. "don't even use the 2 min warm up, as ive never seen an electric car been stopped for going out 2 mins early in a WRCA" so i should pay more to race than my electric compardray.
now there is one word for that ANAL!

maybe next time i go to a nitro national, i will ask if darren bloomfeild and neil cragg can pay more entry fee money as they go around the track more times than i do. and they get a 45min final and i get a 10min just think how crap that sounds.

[GRIFF55]

they only go around the track more times than you because they prepare thier cars well and have almost no technical problems and hardly ever crash!:p
I know the time thing doesn't hold up as a cost argument, but, if your nitro classes ran for 5 mins (if running two classes have no time for out laps in electric anyhow) would you be happy paying £20 to race on one day???? I also know how efficient other regions run for less money, admittedly they have more entries. Even with this, you can race away and be home sooner than a local meeting (why?)

My view on the money is, if it isnt reduced, how does the wrca expect to get more members(nitro or electric) as parents who want their children to do it, usually want to have a go themselves. Quite costly for an average family to get into the hobby me thinks.

Have you ran in the wrca champs electric?? not seen you racing.

Where were the wrca winter champs, as its not just a summer thing? I travelled all over the country to race this winter, if i'd have known these were on i could have saved on fuel.....

[Dyna]

I cant remember any electric off-road regionals over the winter 2009/2010 ?? Did i miss something ? As far as i know, it was just one summer set of electric regionals last year ?

I think this is all down to misunderstanding - as has been said, an electric driver asked why its 10 quid for an electric regional. Then someone commented that as Nitros have more planned track time yet pay the same fee, and isnt there something we could do to even it up a bit if we as electrics are paying the same amount of dosh ? I think thats a fair enough question to ask isnt it ?

By your argument, if you had 20 minutes total planned track time compared to electrics of 30 minutes, nitros would still be happy with paying 10 quid for the day - is that a fair statement ?

I dont see how you can say its anal for us asking the question - if you race either class and you break down/crash and cant do the full heats therby by losing track time - well frankly thats the luck of the draw. I lost 10 minutes or so out of my 30 planned at the GNR regional due to breaks and the thought of asking for money back due to less track time never occured to me... until now :lol:

The point is your planned track time in total is far more than the electrics for the same fee. How quick and how many laps we go around in that time is entirely up to our skill levels. Is that not correct ? And if you dont break anything nitros WILL have substantially more track time than electrics. Thats not nitro bashing, thats just pointing a truth out for discussion for the original question.

The reason the Neil Craggs/Darren Bloomfields get more track time is because they are better drivers than us mere mortals, and the A finals of any class are normally longer - is that not also correct ? BRCA National 1/10 2wd/4wd A-final classes have 3 leg finals, none of the others do. Thats the reward for getting and being at the top... And yes, longer track time for electrics ( more final legs for example ) is something we have discussed in this and other posts - other regions do it, so could we.

No one is nitro bashing, we are all just looking at reasons why the costs are what they are atm, comparing them to each other to see the comparisons, and seeing what people think of everything and what could be improved for next season based on those thoughts. Simples :)

[dorris]

The point is being missed here to a degree.... the reason for the overly high charge of £10 per class with no concessions in the first instance was so there was surplus monies to cover the cost of trophies and the like for what were initially supposed to be WRCA stand-alone trophy meets that doubled up as Welsh Regionals.

Now that the stand-alone trophy meet is no longer on offer, there ceases to be a requirement to add a premium to the race fee at each round to cover those initially planned extras.

At least £2 of each entry was to cover the cost of trophies but host clubs had to buy these up front ready for the meet and hope there was sufficient interest and numbers to cover these out-of-pocket expenses.

When you take this into consideration then it would be reasonable to charge £8 entry with say an initial surcharge of £2 to cover the cost of trophies that would be presented at the end of the series.

Most businesses make money by reducing profit margins but increase turnover.... and the same should apply here. A cheaper entry fee with increased number of entries would generate as much surplus or maybe increase it.... plus it could help increase the actual number of racers at grass roots level which has to be a good thing for every club and umbrella body.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot by pricing yourself out of the market.

[GRIFF55]

exactly what i meant, but it didn't come out that way:lol: dyna
I raced a fortnight ago and only got started 3 out of 5 heats( bugger).:woot:
no money back as it was my fault. didnt expect it anyhow.

that was for two days racing, both classes 5 heats plus 3 finals for each, 2 days £20. go figure.

[big dave]

I cant remember any electric off-road regionals over the winter 2009/2010 ?? Did i miss something ? As far as i know, it was just one summer set of electric regionals last year ?

I think this is all down to misunderstanding - as has been said, an electric driver asked why its 10 quid for an electric regional. Then someone commented that as Nitros have more planned track time yet pay the same fee, and isnt there something we could do to even it up a bit if we as electrics are paying the same amount of dosh ? I think thats a fair enough question to ask isnt it ?

By your argument, if you had 20 minutes total planned track time compared to electrics of 30 minutes, nitros would still be happy with paying 10 quid for the day - is that a fair statement ?

I dont see how you can say its anal for us asking the question - if you race either class and you break down/crash and cant do the full heats therby by losing track time - well frankly thats the luck of the draw. I lost 10 minutes or so out of my 30 planned at the GNR regional due to breaks and the thought of asking for money back due to less track time never occured to me... until now :lol:

The point is your planned track time in total is far more than the electrics for the same fee. How quick and how many laps we go around in that time is entirely up to our skill levels. Is that not correct ? And if you dont break anything nitros WILL have substantially more track time than electrics. Thats not nitro bashing, thats just pointing a truth out for discussion for the original question.

The reason the Neil Craggs/Darren Bloomfields get more track time is because they are better drivers than us mere mortals, and the A finals of any class are normally longer - is that not also correct ? BRCA National 1/10 2wd/4wd A-final classes have 3 leg finals, none of the others do. Thats the reward for getting and being at the top... And yes, longer track time for electrics ( more final legs for example ) is something we have discussed in this and other posts - other regions do it, so could we.

No one is nitro bashing, we are all just looking at reasons why the costs are what they are atm, comparing them to each other to see the comparisons, and seeing what people think of everything and what could be improved for next season based on those thoughts. Simples :)


what i mean by anal. is why its even been brought up, that nitros get more track time than electric. its sad to say it. there was never a meeting where a bunch of nitro heads got together and said lets make nitros have more track time than electric drivers. its only a guide formatt of how they run nitros across the WORLD. they have practice and 3 qualifyers and a final that requires a pit stop.

as for what would the nitros say if electrics had more track time.
well i can speak for at least 85% of the nitro drivers who currently race at wrca meetings. as i know most of them pretty well. and they would not give a toss. to be honest i diddn't even think anyone gave a toss what class had more run time, its the first time i have ever heard of it. so seeing as i pit with, drink with, and race with lots of nitro and electric drivers, then happy to say nitro drivers don't care either way. what wouldn't go down well, is if they had to pay a differn't fee to electric drivers. as at the end of the day. its model car racing. not pay by what class you run, or who you are, or anything else in that line. just model car racing.

there was a Winter wrca. Swansea held a round, and the other rounds never devloped. i also run 2 classes on that day and paid £20. and as i have said i agree its a lot of money for a days racing. my vote would be first car £10 and second £5 and 3rd £2.50.

[big dave]

just thought of something that might help.

as mentioned about gaining more drivers for the wrca by reducing the fee's.
there is what... 6 clubs in south wales that enter there drivers into the WRCA.
if you can find out who does not go to the WRCA rounds because the fee is £10 then that will give you an idear of if the fee was reduced we would gain more racers.

Currently there are no members of swansea who don't run at WRCA races due to the £10 fee. not saying they would not like it reduced, just stating if we reduced the fee we would not gain any more racers from swansea's current membership.


if other clubs can guide on how many racers they know would attend if the fee would be reduced, then we can work out wether it be better to reduce the initial entry fee or reduce just the second class.

[peetbee]

With respect to a winter series, I think last year's was too short notice and dates were set without some of the club's knowledge.
Lets start planning 2010's now!!

Dave, what's the mix of classes at a normal club event in Swansea, is it all nitro or do you have some electric there too?

[Dyna]

Personally, if we are all thinking of moving the WRCA and its racing forward i think it IS fair to bring up all the points we can, see what what, why is why and go from there.

I have to say i personally dont agree with your fact that Nitro drivers wouldnt be unhappy if they had much less track time for the same money - thats coming from your point where nitros get much more track time than we do - if it were reversed i bet there would be a few comments on it :p

Yes its all model car racing, but that isnt the whole point here - its talking about the costs of entry, value for money and the reasons why the costs are what they are. Its relevant to talk about as it comes under the 'value for money' part in my and others opinions - if you are paying for something the same as someone else, but in theory receiving less then its relevant in my book.

Anyway, be that as it may we can agree to disagree and we can talk about that at the AGM ;)

As far as the winter WRCA goes i certainly didnt hear or know about the Swansea round or the series and i was ready to race here last winter ?

I think its fair to say most people on here agree at least to have a second class half price so we seem to be able to agree on some things :lol:

Your last suggestion of a club 'poll' or questionare is spot-on and would certainly get peoples opinions down on paper to see exactly what everyone thinks :)

And thanks again to Dorris for the explanation of the 2 quid for tropheys is a bit more information, and thats what we need - more information. And your views somewhat mirror my own Dorris !

[Roy]

Please find an extract from the minutes of the 2008 WRCA AGM held January 2008. This was followed by Bob's resignation following the "Rebel Series". Bob's thought at the time was to allow clubs to focus on local races and try and increase member numbers, which were reducing in some clubs, unfortunately not everyone agreed. The principle was good but not everyone agreed.

"Once the new committee was in place the dates for the 2008 Championship events were discussed by Bob Williams.
Bob tabled his vision for the future and suggested that the Championship be dropped to 2 rounds, 1 in SE‐Wales and 1 in SW‐Wales, so 2 regions – PASSED. Bob gave 2 dates for the event ‐ as there are only 2 dates not clashing with any other events (18th May & 13th July) it is to be co‐ordinated between the 2 regions as to what region runs on what date. If the 2 event system works this year, it will be increased to 2 and a final next year and so on.
It was voted that it would be £10 per entry & per class so 2 classes = £20.
WRCA is expecting the first 3 in each final to get a trophy.
WHILST THERE IS A REGIONAL MEETING ON – CLUB CHAMPIONSHIP RACING IS TO BE SUSPENDED."


Just a thought .................

Where is SCR it's all of 18hours since he was on here............. :bored::bored::bored:

[i4n]

Big Dave, I can't do all the regionals this year (work and other comitments get in the way) so I can't get a true record of my performance. The £10 per class has put me off doing the ones I can get to.

I'm sure others are in the same boat and I would like to get out and around to the other clubs in the area to race as opposed to COBRA which is my local club - the regionals would be a good excuse to do just that!

[big dave]

Big Dave, I can't do all the regionals this year (work and other comitments get in the way) so I can't get a true record of my performance. The £10 per class has put me off doing the ones I can get to.

I'm sure others are in the same boat and I would like to get out and around to the other clubs in the area to race as opposed to COBRA which is my local club - the regionals would be a good excuse to do just that!


im sure there are others out there in the same position. my pocket would be better off if we reduce the fee, as i attend every round. so reducing the fee's by £2 would see me better off of £12 a season. even better off if i ran 2 classes. but my point was, but us saving money on the day, makes the clubs loose out. an example. when the latest bling part comes out, and its 2mm big and purple, we pay £50 for that as it says it will make us go faster. all that does is make the manufactures loads of money. but we moan about £10 for a race, where our local clubs can make a bit of money and spend it on well needed equipment and better tracks.
so basically we can pay over the odds to have the latest bits on the car's but find it to expensive to plow our money back into the clubs. thats the only bit i cant see, i know £10 is a lot of money, but its not every week, its once a month for 6 months.

but if reducing the cost, does bring in more racer's then that would equall the income. im just asking would that work, as i dont know of anyone who it would attract. not saying there isn't anyone, just i dont know of any.

[Jamie.T]

Im certainly one Dave, as i mentioned previous, i have to travel a fair distance to any event, thus incurring fuel costs e.t.c, so when i go to a meeting i like to run 2 or 3 classes to make it worth my while. Well thats not viable @ £10 a class because its too expensive, so therefore i just dont go.

If the fee's were reduced to £10 for the first class and £5 for the second e.t.c, then i would race.

Jamie....

P.s, just noticed my post made this thread hit the 100th reply. This is possibly on course to be one of the biggest discussions on oOple.lol

[peetbee]

but if reducing the cost, does bring in more racer's then that would equall the income. im just asking would that work, as i dont know of anyone who it would attract. not saying there isn't anyone, just i dont know of any.

This I feel is the sticking point in terms of being able to lower the price. We just don't know for sure whether this would bring in more racers and there are clubs who are in the position where they feel that they can't afford to lose that income.

But, lowering the price for a 2nd class would I feel definitely encourage the existing racers to race more on the same day.

For those who are saying £10 is too high, would there be anything that could be improved that would make you feel it is value for money and therefore happy to pay it, or is it just that money is tight and that a reduction in entry fees would enable you to race.

[Jamie.T]

As has been mentioned on several times, £10 is the entry fee to a national. If the tracks in the WRCA were up to natioanl standard (Talywain excluded) then paying it wouldn't be so bad, but theyre clearly not up to that standard (Yet).

Im definitely behind Dave's idea of giving clubs more income in the form of race fees to help them fund building bigger and better tracks, but can we really see that happening? Due to low numbers that will be an outcome of this fee, surely the club's would depend on that money just for their essential upkeep.

Jamie......

[dorris]

Currently there are no members of swansea who don't run at WRCA races due to the £10 fee

There were from the moment it was voted in, and there are still now.... I know for a fact that a club gave a reduction to some of it's hard up members to encourage them to attend the regional round hosted by that club... and those particular members did attend because of the reduction. Sadly many of those members have dropped the sport altogether and membership numbers are now little more than a slack handful, yet there are still some who object to the current race fee.

Perhaps you need to be sure of your facts before making bold statements like the one above.

I remember a few years ago when nitros first started appearing at clubs, there were many complaints about the track time imbalance between them and electrics and I know of a number who dropped the sport because of it... so it was an issue then and as final times have continued to increase over the years it is more so now.... how keen would you be to run your 5 min final then have to marshall a 30 or 40 min nitro final. This is a real possibility at mixed clubs with a dwindling membership.

[GRIFF55]

dont like purple, so wouldn't buy it anyhow:woot::lol:.

Don't clubs make their main income from club meetings held all year round??? not just off one wrca round a year??? I always thought the wrca was a regional series that will give club member the oportunity to race against different people and get their F grading in their region. Or as a stepping stone to nationals?
Therefore wouldn't the wrca be better having an entry fee set at less than what people pay to enter the elite uk series??

[mdb_75]

To a point i agree, but as i said earlier, and from what other people have said, if you lower the cost slightly you should get more people attending.

Its better in my mind to have more people competing at a lower cost than less people at a higher cost if the eventual takings are the same :)

True!. that is one way of doing it. but you can't garentee there will be more numbers attending.


You don't think so? If you were to increase the fee you'd almost certainly have less entrants so I would say if you were to lower it you would have more! Simples...

[dorris]

Don't clubs make their main income from club meetings held all year round???That really should be the case, clubs are non-profit making organisations that should be self-financing. Their annual accounts should just about balance each year. If there is an annual surplus (not profit!!!) then it would be sensible to plough it back into the club to improve facilities, upgrade or replace equipment or even to bulk purchase things like tyres at discount to sell on to the members at the bulk unit price saving members a few quid or buy in PTs that they sell on to members on the drip.

When it comes to clubs that rely on the possibility of a large event or two to plug an annual hole in their finances then they really need to sort the business plan out because they only have to lose the event for one reason or another (flood, foot and mouth, traffic accident etc. etc.) and they could well go down the pan. To manage a club this way would be folly to say the least.

[DCM]

I have to agree with Andy and Dorris with regard to how the funds for a club are gained. In as mush as the weekly running of a club should be sufficient to cover all it's costs from the winter and summer series that they run.

Any other championship was agreed to be suspended on a regional weekend, relieving drivers to attend if they so wished.

There have been a number of people, with the resurgence of 10th electic off-road, who have commented on the cost and it being restrictive, whether it is picking and choosing which they attend, not letting kids get an experience, only running once class etc. This is not the same as with the 8th scale runners, who appear to be happy with the £10 entry for what is really a points series for them (as they do not gain any licence grade), so we must be thankful of their support.

As for not posting, I appear to have annoyed some people, it was not my intention to do so, so appologise now for it, I was merely trying to convey what is in black and white in the rule book.

I do hope, for those who are talking in here, that they will attend the next AGM, and get this sorted (hopefull(

[Belsten]

True!. that is one way of doing it. but you can't garentee there will be more numbers attending. The WRCA is currently growing. only 2 years ago, we were lucky to see more than 20 drivers. the £10 fee has been in place for nearly 3 years. with the current numbers each club will have a good income.

We could reduce the fees by £2 to £8, then that loss in revenue over a 12 month period, could be the cost of a new mower for that club, or pa speaker, so when the grass is too long or we cant hear the pa properly. we can say, if we had short grass and the pa was clear, i would pay an extra £2.

really i think a compromise would be the reduced second class. £20 or £30 for one days racing is steep. but come on guys £10 for a days racing, is it really that much money.

A reduction on £2 per entry for 1 meeting is not going to lose a club that much revenue, even more so if people begin to race more than one class.
Its the principle at stake here, it is the same cost as a national entry

you forgetting a wrca is not only summer. its also winter. and i do run electric and i do pay £10. its still a days racing you pay for. not how much track time you get. im all for reducing the second class. even £15 for two classes is not that steep for a reginal event.
if i cut with my nitro engine, 2mins into every run, does that mean i can ask for some of money back as electric drivers had more track time. so track time will never come into it. it cant be helped that the race formatt for nitro has been made longer by its govening body. if electric drivers feel they need more track time at brca run events, they should sort it out at the top with the brca sections. this discusion was about how we feel about paying £10 to race at a reginal. i was only pointing out where the money goes, as to think of that, before fees get reduced and clubs dwindle away.
there are so many good points on here. but the track time argument is crap. its just that electric v nitro divde rubbish.
so basically as i run nitro only, i get more track time, due to me having a longer set final. "don't even use the 2 min warm up, as ive never seen an electric car been stopped for going out 2 mins early in a WRCA" so i should pay more to race than my electric compardray.
now there is one word for that ANAL!

maybe next time i go to a nitro national, i will ask if darren bloomfeild and neil cragg can pay more entry fee money as they go around the track more times than i do. and they get a 45min final and i get a 10min just think how crap that sounds.

what i mean by anal. is why its even been brought up, that nitros get more track time than electric. its sad to say it. there was never a meeting where a bunch of nitro heads got together and said lets make nitros have more track time than electric drivers. its only a guide formatt of how they run nitros across the WORLD. they have practice and 3 qualifyers and a final that requires a pit stop.

as for what would the nitros say if electrics had more track time.
well i can speak for at least 85% of the nitro drivers who currently race at wrca meetings. as i know most of them pretty well. and they would not give a toss. to be honest i diddn't even think anyone gave a toss what class had more run time, its the first time i have ever heard of it. so seeing as i pit with, drink with, and race with lots of nitro and electric drivers, then happy to say nitro drivers don't care either way. what wouldn't go down well, is if they had to pay a differn't fee to electric drivers. as at the end of the day. its model car racing. not pay by what class you run, or who you are, or anything else in that line. just model car racing.

there was a Winter wrca. Swansea held a round, and the other rounds never devloped. i also run 2 classes on that day and paid £20. and as i have said i agree its a lot of money for a days racing. my vote would be first car £10 and second £5 and 3rd £2.50.

What hang on, there was a winter series that consisted of 1 round ? How does that work ? Best 1 out of 1 to count ?

im sure there are others out there in the same position. my pocket would be better off if we reduce the fee, as i attend every round. so reducing the fee's by £2 would see me better off of £12 a season. even better off if i ran 2 classes. but my point was, but us saving money on the day, makes the clubs loose out. an example. when the latest bling part comes out, and its 2mm big and purple, we pay £50 for that as it says it will make us go faster. all that does is make the manufactures loads of money. but we moan about £10 for a race, where our local clubs can make a bit of money and spend it on well needed equipment and better tracks.
so basically we can pay over the odds to have the latest bits on the car's but find it to expensive to plow our money back into the clubs. thats the only bit i cant see, i know £10 is a lot of money, but its not every week, its once a month for 6 months.

but if reducing the cost, does bring in more racer's then that would equall the income. im just asking would that work, as i dont know of anyone who it would attract. not saying there isn't anyone, just i dont know of any.

Youve made some sweeping generalisations here, speaking on behalf of others that clearly dont agree with you. If you are right with your last statement, why dont we just make the entry fee £30 per class then if its not going to attract any other people to the hobby

Its toy cars at the end of the day, my original post is about the principle of it costing the same for a regional as a national and pretty much more than most other regionals. Personally, I couldnt give a toss who has more track time

[dick don]

Why don't we just run 7 mins heats for the electrics and a ten minite (three legged of course) finals do them a two pound entry for all the classes they wanted to race, marshall, cook you tea wipe your arses, will that stop you all winging.
You are the ones who are driving the divide between nitro/electric, have you noticed that the nitro boys just chill turn up pay their dues race and go home happy even helping out with volinteer marshaling duties for your heats.
As was said in many a previous post if your not happy turn up have your vote. Think you would be surprised at the amount of nitro drivers who acculaly vote on things to improve your day to.
Another fine example why i don't race electric, very ANAL.

By the way I started this post seriously, yes have more track time but pay your dues to race and support your clubs, and yep all for a reduction for second class.

[Dyna]

Its toy cars at the end of the day, my original post is about the principle of it costing the same for a regional as a national and pretty much more than most other regionals.

We advanced much, much further on from that when you werent looking Dave.... :lol:

I think this is good for the WRCA as a whole tbh. People posting what they feel about something they care about - wouldnt it have been crap if your original thread only recieved a couple of half-hearted answers ?

The very fact it is now 6 pages on with good arguments on all sides by a varity of people & classes shows there is life in the WRCA, nitro & electric. And that we are willing to voice our opinions. Even though i dont agree with all that has been said, i would personally rather argue the details with people who genuinely seem to care about the sport rather than people who dont, no matter what class they race.

And most of us seem to agree in principal about the half-cost second class, so some good has already come out of it. Not a bad result that Dave for your original post.... ;)

[dick don]

Don't see why it can't be changed just for one round just prove that it will bring in more people, myself I can just hear all the oh I had to wash my grannys hair or clean the belly fluff out of the misses, can here all the excuses now, oh the car was due mot, the sun was to bright the cat was loosing fur.
Be good just to see for one round just to see if you boys can put your money where your mouth is.
H sort it out for them please I do believe the WRCA has a few quid to spare just to cover the expected short fall to the relavent club, even dropping the price as I have said won't please you boys by the time the Agm comes about it will be something else that upsets you.

[Dyna]

Why don't we just run 7 mins heats for the electrics and a ten minite (three legged of course) finals do them a two pound entry for all the classes they wanted to race, marshall, cook you tea wipe your arses, will that stop you all winging.
You are the ones who are driving the divide between nitro/electric, have you noticed that the nitro boys just chill turn up pay their dues race and go home happy even helping out with volinteer marshaling duties for your heats.
As was said in many a previous post if your not happy turn up have your vote. Think you would be surprised at the amount of nitro drivers who acculaly vote on things to improve your day to.
Another fine example why i don't race electric, very ANAL.

I still dont understand why the nitro people have to resort to 'anal' quotes all the time... :p

No one is saying nitros shouldnt have their long run times or anything like that, and i havent seen any of the electric people slagging off nitros at all apart from point about the disparisons between the classes run time and the seemingly inballance of the entry fees due to that fact - so why accuse us of driving a wedge between the classes when it looks as though you are doing that yourselves ?

As has been explained a few times now, the thread started with a simple question about electric regional entry fees, people have justifiably voiced their opinions about the reasons why, and what is involved in the general & club costs and the comparisons between the classes to gauge value for money for the electrics. Just a debate - thats it.

If you or anyone else can run through the thread and point out where any the electric drivers are trying to drive a wedge between the classes or be disrespectful to nitros then please do because i just cant see it ?

Don't see why it can't be changed just for one round just prove that it will bring in more people, myself I can just hear all the oh I had to wash my grannys hair or clean the belly fluff out of the misses, can here all the excuses now, oh the car was due mot, the sun was to bright the cat was loosing fur.
Be good just to see for one round just to see if you boys can put your money where your mouth is.
H sort it out for them please I do believe the WRCA has a few quid to spare just to cover the expected short fall to the relavent club, even dropping the price as I have said won't please you boys by the time the Agm comes about it will be something else that upsets you.

Now if thats not being personal & wedge driving though i dont know what is...

Going to your argument though, are you saying we should never mention anything about the entry fees, the reasons behind the costs, the class & regional comparisons and just let things continue as they are with no debate at all just in case one class or the other gets offended ? Then what would you have us do - just take the rules as they are with no further input for next year apart from the AGM ? I would've thought the WRCA members in general would be happy theres such debate going on - it shows people are actually taking an interest in the subject again :)

I'm honestly not sure you've read the whole thread through though, as you will see just about all your statements have been covered already explaining why we are debating it ( read Dave Belstens posts on the first page for a start ) - including the AGM details last year about the regional costs. And remember we are talking about next years cost now as this years have been already agreed upon last year. Most people i would think have already decided what they are doing for this years series, whether they can race them or not. But if we can talk about things now based on the first two regionals & on ideas & opinions here then we waste less time later on. What is the problem with that ? And if people do change their minds before the next AGM and decide that the fees are fair, then all well and good. Im sure everyone will go along with what is voted for next year as long as everyone has had a chance to talk about it, which precisely what we are doing here.

Yes its good that nitros have helped out marshalling electrics occasionally and its great that you all go home happy. Generally so do we. Lots of electric drivers including myself have said we couldnt run without Nitro support atm, so please do not read things that just arent there. We are just trying to sort our side out for the future ( as has been mentioned by nitro drivers that we should do ) as well as you guys & gals have so we can be as happy as you all are and be in no way 'anal' in the future.... :lol:

[peetbee]

Dick Don, why the animosity?

I'll take you up on one of your comments though.
The next round is at Caldicot on the 25 July and we're sorry we can only run electric, but that's down to the limitations of our temporary track.

**Entries to run a 2nd class will be HALF PRICE**


ie £10 for 1 class, £15 for 2 classes.:thumbsup:

[dick don]

Sorry thought I read somewhere that someone wanted to break up the days and run on separate days.
Don't run Nitro's when electrics are racing.
You get more track time running nitros, I could go on and on through about 80% of the posts.

What i did say is if you want it changed turn up and be counted, its already been pointed out to that if there is going to be a majority turn out of nitro drivers at any AGM then its going to favour them.
And just one more point i would like to make is nitro is the future and savior of this sport, its a much more spectator friendly thing due to the sheer spectical of the sport. I would if i was not involved in the racing wathcing nitros racing would be more appealing than electrics, it will always attract a bigger crowd and potentally more members in my opinion. Electric was the thing years ago when that was the only option now there is another option and its much more exciting, move with the times boys.

[Mikey G]

Sorry thought I read somewhere that someone wanted to break up the days and run on separate days.
Don't run Nitro's when electrics are racing.
You get more track time running nitros, I could go on and on through about 80% of the posts.

What i did say is if you want it changed turn up and be counted, its already been pointed out to that if there is going to be a majority turn out of nitro drivers at any AGM then its going to favour them.
And just one more point i would like to make is nitro is the future and savior of this sport, its a much more spectator friendly thing due to the sheer spectical of the sport. I would if i was not involved in the racing wathcing nitros racing would be more appealing than electrics, it will always attract a bigger crowd and potentally more members in my opinion. Electric was the thing years ago when that was the only option now there is another option and its much more exciting, move with the times boys.

I Like you, have we met? :lol:

Anybody remember the Chepstow car show a few years ago? Crowds gathered for the nitros but dissapeared for the electrics. Nitro cars appeal to petrol heads, I know because I am one.

[dick don]

There was a round of the nitro x at Bromyard where the crowd were standing three deep all weekend to.
So i say put the fee up for electrics as we generating more members for you.:p

[gnr racer]

Not good guys :thumbdown:
'In my opinion' those above posts are just driving a thicker wedge between the electric & nitro boys
Bottom line is we have got to work together for numbers to flourish. doesnt matter if our power comes from a battery or 'smelly' nitro fuel.
there are a few of us now running both electric & nitro which is definately a positive thing all round

[Big G]

I've always thought the £10 was a bit much, but just accepted it as I'm only a visitor and I just wanted a day out racing at tally (round 1), but they are run so far from BRCA rules it's funny.

"is there a control tyre" I asked. the reply was "yes, black and round and if you want you can have some spikes on them and little writing on the sides..."

The rule on not leaving the rostrum seems to be talked about a lot, but in reality people do what they want without penaties.

I could go on, but hey ho. :)

My 2p is £5 seems reasonable for the event given that the winter MAM series are £5 and they have handouts (yes, I have a PT) and a clear and structured way of running the day's racing although very relaxed on rules.

[minimatto]

Right guys as Caldicot has decided to reduce the price for the 2nd class I think we can use the last round at Talywain as a test run on fees. Our first round we had 75 drivers bringing in £640 as there were a few junior members.

So I propose the following:

£10 one class
£5 2nd class
£20 family entry (1 Adult and unlimited children as long as they are family, unlimited classes)
£5 junior per class

If we have similar numbers like we did on the first round we can see if by droping the fees halps or hinders.

Also like to mention as we are holding the final round I have arranged for a live band to play at the club house on the Saturday evening, no charge for entry but lets get a few people in the club house, both electric and nitro, and make the final round a good one.

[DCM]

£20 family entry (1 Adult and unlimited children as long as they are family, unlimited classes)

Now, that is thinking out of the box, and that one really REALLY is likeable, from my point of view!!

[dorris]

What i did say is if you want it changed turn up and be counted, its already been pointed out to that if there is going to be a majority turn out of nitro drivers at any AGM then its going to favour themWhich is exactly why pricings and the like should be discussed at club level then the findings presented by the club's WRCA representative to the WRCA AGM then one club one vote sorts the decision.... that way decisions can't be manipulated simply by turning out mob-handed. Probably 70% of all club members choose not to be active in the organizational side of r/c so these small meetings can be swayed by a very small group who want everyone to do just what they want with little consideration for the rest. When it happens (which it does) the vast majority are presented with a 'like it or lump it' situation. Many of these will not stand up and fight their corner... so they drift away and the overall number of racers falls. That sounds to me very much like what has happened in the Welsh region over recent years.

As the numbers reduce so the divide between classes grows.

And just one more point i would like to make is nitro is the future and savior of this sport, its a much more spectator friendly thing due to the sheer spectical of the sport..... until someone 6 miles away makes a nuisance report about faint buzzing when they are trying to relax in their garden on a Sunday afternoon and suddenly a noise abatement order is served and it all has to stop. The intolerance of today's society is such that unless you are 20 miles away in any direction from another human being then there is a good chance of a complaint.

Nitros have plugged a gap left by a drop off in electric runners but their rise will also be their downfall because of the noise issues associated with them. There is no level of noise that can not be classified as a nuisance.

To my mind r/c racing is about the challenge of you against the clock and other drivers.... it is a sport of participation. You race other drivers you don't drive for a crowd!!!

[Jamie.T]

And just one more point i would like to make is nitro is the future and savior of this sport, its a much more spectator friendly thing due to the sheer spectical of the sport. I would if i was not involved in the racing wathcing nitros racing would be more appealing than electrics, it will always attract a bigger crowd and potentally more members in my opinion. Electric was the thing years ago when that was the only option now there is another option and its much more exciting, move with the times boys.

HA HA, interesting thoughts for sure. Nitro is definitely NOT the future as you put it. Just a couple of negative points here that may make you retract the above comments.

1. Nitro is loud, smelly and certainly not relaxed. Its also the reason clubs loose their local tracks due to noise complaints. I do believe this is the reason your local club has got no track this season. So how does nitro help support your club then??

2.Most people only race nitro's outdoor during the summer, except fot the hardcore racer. So even if you get a full turnout during the summer months that's still only 50% of the year. And that doesn't include canceled meting's due to weather.

3.It may draw a bigger crowd as its more of a spectacle to watch, but exactly how much revenue does that bring in. Let me think......0. Nobody pays to watch the racing do they?:bored:

Lets not start to drive a wedge here between nitro and electric. We have to work together in our small region that is the WRCA. I personaly have done nitro and now electric, and i personaly prefer electric. But im certainly not going to bash nitro's as i can see why people enjoy them and its their choice to run them. So can we stop bashing electrics as they also bring in a large revenue to many clubs. In fact, aren't they the only revenue your local club currently has??

Jamie......

[peetbee]

£10 one class
£5 2nd class
£20 family entry (1 Adult and unlimited children as long as they are family, unlimited classes)
£5 junior per class

Great news Matt, let's see how this all works out.

I put a link on the Swansea club's forum to try and encourage constructive input from more nitro drivers. It seemed to work to start with as those of us who only race electric didn't understand why some things were as they were and why some of the ideas on here may not work.

I hope it can go back to being constructive as it seems as though the nitro & electric racers may need each other at present to make these race meetings viable.

[axeman]

OK gents I'm getting a bit pissed off with people slagging off each others methods of racing!!!!!

I race both electric and nitro and enjoy them both, they both offer different challenges.

If you lot want to argue on here and potentialy undo all the hard work people have put into the WRCA making it what it is today then fine...

So far I have run rounds 1 and 2 with help from the club members and at no point have I had these moans at trackside.

Please save it for the next AGM....

[dick don]

Don't know if your missunderstanding me just because I chose not to race electric does not mean I don't like and appreciate it, its each to his or her own thing. Everyone is after the same thing of a weekend, fun with big toys with the relaxed atomasphere thats needed on a warm summers day.
So as Matt has seemed to put together by listening to whats been said the recovery plan thats a lot of people will think is the answer, got to say it does sound good to me, sounds like it would be a very good way foward for the WRCA.
Untill the time when we can support a Welsh regeinol of around 80 drivers split between electric and nitro we stuck with eack other for the time being.:)

[leepez]

^^^^Spot on Craig. Its impossible to run electric and nitro under the same rules, theres just to many differences. One of the main points which has been isued is the difference in track time.

Jamie.......

Take an example Nitro's have one 5 min practice round and three 5 min qualifiers and all finals being 20 mins.
Say you have a bad day's racing, with no end of problems with the car and you end up in the "E" final when you normally on average make the "A" finals.
The top two out of each final "bump up" into the next final so you win the "E" final bump up to the "D" final. :woot:
You then win the "D" and go up to the "C". If you work that out and eventually Bump up to the "A" Final with each final being 20 mins that is one hell of a days racing for a tenner! :thumbsup:

[hywel]

I am pleased to see that the art of debate is still alive and well and very interested to see that we have some constructive result coming to gether with regard to the orginal thread and some of the offshoots.
The Wrca comitee has tried hard over many years to promote and improve racing in our region It has sometimes been an uphill struggle.
We all need to work togrther on these matters and i had hoped that we had put behind us the nitros /electric split and that we were all racers out to have fun and promote our region seems i was wrong however im sure we can sort things out in time until we can get to the situation where we have large enough numbers in both types of racing to allow seperate meetings we seem to be stuck with :thumbsup::thumbsup::woot:other .

in veiw of the comments and interest in just one or two topics then i hope this years Agm will be well attended just a little teaser the boys in swansea would like to hold it this year so look out for the time date and venue :woot::woot::woot:

[GRIFF55]

thats all wales needs H, all clubs to work together:thumbsup:
I'd love to see the region grow back to the scale it was when it was the welsh buggy league. Lets hope it can hey!

[dick don]

Don't think it can ever be that way again because of the fact we run different classes and we don't have the no.s in each class. When it was the Welsh buggy leauge there were all electric drivers thats all we had and thats all we did, now have ofus have moved to nitro so in my opinion this is why were not getting the no.s, they are there just racing different classes.
So unless we all stick together and appreciate and support each others chosen class how can we expect a full turn out?
This sport just needs to attract new members and keep doing big meets in public places, Nitro x for instance where the racing is taken to the public with the show and spectical of nitro. I know alot of you think it does not bring in new members but have any of you guys have any better ideas to do the same?
Don't see why you electric guys don't try the same and hold a uk regional in a big show and see if you can't pull off the same sort of thing.
Sorry i've driffted off topic with this one but just trying to round up the whole thread on a positive an understanding note, if you catch my drift.

[peetbee]

Many moons ago Gwent Model Club used to hold a race at the Leukemia Rally (run each year at Tredegar House in Newport).

I went to the rally this year and was wondering about the possibility doing it again as it was always a blast. Normally held in September so not sure about the weather....

[DCM]

I think it was the weather and the fact that you needed towing out afterwards, that put paid to that one, Pete. Although aiming meetings to be held at auto shows is a good idea.

[peetbee]

Well, that and Gwent model Club being one of the casualties of the dropping numbers

[gnr racer]

Many moons ago Gwent Model Club used to hold a race at the Leukemia Rally (run each year at Tredegar House in Newport).

I went to the rally this year and was wondering about the possibility doing it again as it was always a blast. Normally held in September so not sure about the weather....

Yeh thats a really good idea, and that show pulls in huge crowds each year, with it being in September yes the weather could be a factor but think on the positive side :)
Pete, are you going to try & find contact details or I dont mind getting on to it

[Balders]

Is there another show in Chepstow this year that the lads from Cobra organised a few years back?

[Roy]

Is there another show in Chepstow this year that the lads from Cobra organised a few years back?

Hi Mike

As far as I know the organisers who did the show we got involved with are not running the show again.

I have emailed the contacts recently to find out but have not had a reply.

Just for info we have spoken to the "Dubs at the Castle" organisers and they are interested in organising something for next year.

We were too late for the Tredegar House Show this year (and that one was cancelled anyway).


Roy

PS Should this now be another thread and not "WRCA Fees"

[peetbee]

I contacted Chepstow earlier this year about it and they came back saying they've no plans for another show at present.

Roy, the Luekemia rally was moved to June this year, will be back to it's usual September from 2011.

I'd also contacted the Dubs people (as it's in Caldicot:p) I'll drop you a PM about it.

Methinks we need to co-ordinate a bit :blush:

[Jamie.T]

On the ball Pete. Nice to see someone trying to organise some meets.

Some of these one-off events are good fun. The Chepstow meet for example was brilliant as there's something for the family to do whilst Dadi races.LOL

Jamie....

[peetbee]

New topic started for discussions around these events :thumbsup: