Kyosho Big Bores

[jimmy]

Kyosho have released some teaser shots of their stunning new 'big bore' dampers for their 1/10th scale buggies. No other details on the dampers are available but they've kindly taken some shots VS the standard dampers on team driver Adachi's car.


http://www.oople.com/forums/../rc/photos/misc/news/kyoshobbores02.jpg

http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/misc/news/kyoshobbores01.jpg

As with all things on Shinozuke Adachi's cars these dampers are anodised red but we'd guess the production items will be regulation blue like the photo below.


http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/misc/news/kyoshobbores03.jpg


Source Kyosho
(http://www.kyosho.com/)Thanks for the tip Daniel!

[kek23k]

oo very nice :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[njc11]

:cool:

[seankyew]

well it's a sooner or later thing really.

[ApexSpeed]

So this discussion has been ongoing on the KyoshoForum for a few days now, as Tebo has been testing them recently...

Do big bore shocks on a 2wd electric buggy do anything other than make your wallet lighter and your car heavier? I think the general consensus has been, no, they are really a waste of money for electric cars. On 1/8th buggies pushing a lot of mass for 30 minutes at a time, sure, and maybe even on a heavy SC, but on light buggies they are really not something you need.

They only bring negatives with them—expensive (more additional costs), need all new springs, new pistons, new setups, heavier, higher Cg, etc. For what advantage or gains? Marginal to 99.9% of the population of the planet, and even to most of the guys getting them for free from Kyosho. Keep in mind, they would be replacing what is already regarded as one of the best electric buggy shocks in racing—the Velvet.



Waste of money, IMO, and most definitely not needed for most racing.

[ulrich]

So this discussion has been ongoing on the KyoshoForum for a few days now, as Tebo has been testing them recently...

Do big bore shocks on a 2wd electric buggy do anything other than make your wallet lighter and your car heavier? I think the general consensus has been, no, they are really a waste of money for electric cars. On 1/8th buggies pushing a lot of mass for 30 minutes at a time, sure, and maybe even on a heavy SC, but on light buggies they are really not something you need.

They only bring negatives with them—expensive (more additional costs), need all new springs, new pistons, new setups, heavier, higher Cg, etc. For what advantage or gains? Marginal to 99.9% of the population of the planet, and even to most of the guys getting them for free from Kyosho. Keep in mind, they would be replacing what is already regarded as one of the best electric buggy shocks in racing—the Velvet.



Waste of money, IMO, and most definitely not needed for most racing.

For my Schumacher cars it is not a waste of money... only downside!! I need larger shock oil bottles :o)

[Snappy]

So this discussion has been ongoing on the KyoshoForum for a few days now, as Tebo has been testing them recently...

Do big bore shocks on a 2wd electric buggy do anything other than make your wallet lighter and your car heavier? I think the general consensus has been, no, they are really a waste of money for electric cars. On 1/8th buggies pushing a lot of mass for 30 minutes at a time, sure, and maybe even on a heavy SC, but on light buggies they are really not something you need.

They only bring negatives with them—expensive (more additional costs), need all new springs, new pistons, new setups, heavier, higher Cg, etc. For what advantage or gains? Marginal to 99.9% of the population of the planet, and even to most of the guys getting them for free from Kyosho. Keep in mind, they would be replacing what is already regarded as one of the best electric buggy shocks in racing—the Velvet.



Waste of money, IMO, and most definitely not needed for most racing.

You mustn't be running a Cougar SV then.

[jimmy]

If they came with the buggy then most of those arguments against suddenly fall away - and then you're left with, well, they raise the cog slightly.

I can imagine they'll be more consistent - a tiny variation in pistons isn't going to matter since the bigger the volume the less small variations matter.

Plus - they look cool! And that's the biggest factor surely? :woot:

[area52]

I agree with Doug and doupt they do anything for the handling of a 2WD buggy. Well, eccept for the Cougar SV maybe as the original 'thin-ish' Schuey shocks introduced with the CAT SX are shite in terms of volume.

I do not see the point why Kyosho wants to change to a big-bore design other than making money with aftermarket parts. The original Kyosho's are top-notch in my opinion and 'look' a bit bigger than the average AE or Losi shock (12 mm each) with their 12.5 mm bodies. Durango (12 mm) come with big-bores very soon Yokomo allready have them. With the heavier 4WD they possibly make sense if the original design is on the edge now like Schumacher or maybe Yokomo.

Well, we'll see.

[Gayo]

I can't comment for the Schumacher cars, but here we have lots of Yokomos and they are considerably faster with big-bore shocks, specially on rutted tracks and flat-landing jumps. It seems that you have best of 2 worlds : better bumps handling and more pack on jumps.
I will get them for my cars for sure.:)

The 2wd Vs 4wd thing doesn't make sense for me as they have already almost the same weight. Some 2wd are even heavier than most 4wd.

[Fatal1ty]

Hi all,

I'm sure that the big bores makes faster, when you are a good driver, with good feeling.

They give you more feedback of the car, its easier to drive, better in landing, better over bumps and less nervous.

The big bores work more with the oil, than with the spring. It works better :)

sandro

[RogerM]

One thing is for certain .... they will be of the highest quality!

I can see one definite advantage to them ... they will clear up the spring issue (same colours, same rates, different lengths .. but same part numbers ..) which has come about as Kyosho have worked hard on developing the cars!
Lets also hope that Kyosho release slighty wider a range of spring rates, would be nice to fine tune the front end the way we can the rears (that said both cars run #70 silvers on the front 95% of the time so maybe we don't need any more).

Kyosho shocks are without doubt the nicest and easiest to build shock I've every used on a 1/10th buggy, how they can make them better I'm not sure but I am sure that if Kyosho release them it is because they make the cars faster, more forgiving or both!

[shanks]

One thing is for certain .... they will be of the highest quality!

I can see one definite advantage to them ... they will clear up the spring issue (same colours, same rates, different lengths .. but same part numbers ..) which has come about as Kyosho have worked hard on developing the cars!
Lets also hope that Kyosho release slighty wider a range of spring rates, would be nice to fine tune the front end the way we can the rears (that said both cars run #70 silvers on the front 95% of the time so maybe we don't need any more).

Kyosho shocks are without doubt the nicest and easiest to build shock I've every used on a 1/10th buggy, how they can make them better I'm not sure but I am sure that if Kyosho release them it is because they make the cars faster, more forgiving or both!


Agreed Roger

Kyosho will have made these for a genuine reason i.e. they will be better in one way or another - or more :thumbsup:

[janus_77]

I do not see the point why Kyosho wants to change to a big-bore design other than making money with aftermarket parts.

It's simple: many racers are asking / demanding big-bores. So either you make them or you dont sell ANY shocks.

[jimmy]

I don't have a Kyosho, but I want them. Clearly making them has worked - since now, I want them. :thumbsup:

[MHeadling]

Jimmy lets see if you can get them on your DEX410! :thumbsup:

[ApexSpeed]

Honestly, I really think that the next advancement in R/C cars is still shock technology. But I don't think that advancement is to make the shocks bigger. I think that companies should be looking into piston technology and internal tuning, like a motocross shock.

R/C racers are constantly "tuning" their cars with stiffer or more flexible chassis designs, and that in the world of racing is ludicrous. You don't tune with an uncontrollable and inconsistent object, and certainly not the chassis. No real race car in the world is designed with a flexible chassis.

So why do we do it with R/C cars? Frankly, I feel it's because ALL of the shocks suck and don't have enough tuning, range and consistency in them to give the compliance you need.

Shin, Tebo and Kyosho should be spending time developing better shocks, not bigger ones.





That said, we'll probably all be running useless big bore shocks this time next year. :woot:



doug

[Big G]

I found the cat with BB shocks rode the bumps loads better in standard form than my B44 did. probably a chassis issue, but the B44 was amazing with ghea pistons in the back. Just got some for the cat to try.

So far I love the way my cat rides the bumps with BB shocks. but like Jimmy said. they look so pimp and that's the main thing :D

[shanks]

Honestly, I really think that the next advancement in R/C cars is still shock technology. But I don't think that advancement is to make the shocks bigger. I think that companies should be looking into piston technology and internal tuning, like a motocross shock.

R/C racers are constantly "tuning" their cars with stiffer or more flexible chassis designs, and that in the world of racing is ludicrous. You don't tune with an uncontrollable and inconsistent object, and certainly not the chassis. No real race car in the world is designed with a flexible chassis.

So why do we do it with R/C cars? Frankly, I feel it's because ALL of the shocks suck and don't have enough tuning, range and consistency in them to give the compliance you need.

Shin, Tebo and Kyosho should be spending time developing better shocks, not bigger ones.





That said, we'll probably all be running useless big bore shocks this time next year. :woot:



doug



Agreed

I could never quit understand how the fit of a shock piston didnt seem to be perfect - in other words oil can pass around the sides of the piston rather than just through the holes - surely that mean inconsistancy?

Dont actually know enough fluid dynamics to know whether big bores are better or not..

[ApexSpeed]

Something else to consider, too, that the oil we use in shocks is not oil made for shocks—it's a typical R/C product that has been re-appropriated from some other industry, re-bottled into 2 oz. containers and sold to us at a huge mark-up.

Real race shock technology uses one viscosity of an oil made for shocks, then tunes with pack, pistons, valves and other components not yet used in an R/C shock.

We're still using shock technology that was developed for the RC10 in 1983. Think about it.

[Neil Skull]

I really cant say if big bore is better or not but if the team drivers are using them its not because its making them slower!!!!!!

As shin is not only a driver but also the designer i think it would be stupid if he did not run them or did but went slower!!
remember the Lazer light out the box!

[ApexSpeed]

They are also just TESTING them. There has been no mention if these were going to be sold as production upgrades or not. They might not actually make them faster.

[area52]

There has been no mention if these were going to be sold as production upgrades or not. They might not actually make them faster.

As we have learned from the history: We (the modellers) want new parts because they are new. Not because they make our cars 'faster' ...

[jimmy]

Bbores might not make them faster- but might make it possible to alter internal design in the future as you suggest is the way forward. You could be right but I think the two will go hand in hand.

[area52]

Fits the subject: B4's with standard shocks on the left and Yokomo BB's on the right.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4698852557_557b448950.jpg

[njc11]

They are also just TESTING them. There has been no mention if these were going to be sold as production upgrades or not. They might not actually make them faster.

These big bores are available as of this weekend, part numbers etc are already out there... :woot:

Well thats if you can get to the Japanese Nationals at the Yatabe Arena! lol! They are a pre-release to those running Kyosho cars at the Nationals.. To us they wont be out till around September.. The springs are made by X-Gear the same brand as Shin ran at the Petit race..

translate this link lol!

http://kyoshoshop-online.com/kyosho/goods/index.html?cid=99999&ggcd=ONFW5304V

:thumbsup:

[ApexSpeed]

Interesting.

Anyone else already have spring clearance issues (on the turnbuckles) on the rears of the RB5/RT5/SC? Larger diameters makes it worse without mounting changes. Wonder how they are getting around that.

Some more photos of Tebo's rides from the recent Shootout...

[ryanlownie]

I want....
...Bigguboashokkufurusetto!


Love the Japanese translation!

I know these cars are far lighter than 1/8th's where big bores have proven to be a much better shock but still I doubt the company would go to the lengths and costs of developing them if there wasn't some sort of performance improvement. Obviously these could clearly be sold as bling but I can't see any downsides to running them!

[mattb]

I want....
...Bigguboashokkufurusetto!


Love the Japanese translation!

I know these cars are far lighter than 1/8th's where big bores have proven to be a much better shock but still I doubt the company would go to the lengths and costs of developing them if there wasn't some sort of performance improvement. Obviously these could clearly be sold as bling but I can't see any downsides to running them!get them in as soon as theyre released mate i want some lol

[ApexSpeed]

I doubt the company would go to the lengths and costs of developing them if there wasn't some sort of performance improvement.

Hahahaha... that's really funny. Have you picked up an R/C magazine in the last 25 years? The history of R/C racing is littered with expensive products that offer no performance gain (and some at a loss!).


I can't see any downsides to running them!

Weight, higher center of gravity, you'll need all new springs, added costs... just to name a few.

But, YOU will definitely be lighter. :lol:

[tonymon]

dont buy them then mate if you dont think theyre better

[ApexSpeed]

dont buy them then mate if you dont think theyre better

Really? Ya think? :rolleyes:

The ONLY people who know if they are better or not are Tebo and Shin, and any of the other team members who are using them. Everyone else posting here is just speculating.

[carlin]

Well it looks like JT is running these shocks too.

He's currently running them on the RB5 & ZX5 FS2, i did hear they will be out around Sept/Oct time
The only down fall is the retail price of these shocks, I'm guessing well over £100+???

[njc11]

They shouldnt be...

Around 4000 yen a pair and X Gear springs (made especially for these shocks, and as Shin already runs on his standard velvets!) at around 800 yen a pair!

So not as dear as you think!

They will defo be on my shopping list!

:thumbsup:

[Neil Skull]

Really? Ya think? :rolleyes:

The ONLY people who know if they are better or not are Tebo and Shin, and any of the other team members who are using them. Everyone else posting here is just speculating.


Very true,

I wont be buying them until they are proven ok by someone who has plenty of cash to splash out on a set.

I wish i had plenty of cash:woot:

[Neil Skull]

Very true,

I wont be buying them until they are proven ok by someone who has plenty of cash to splash out on a set.

I wish i had plenty of cash:woot:

Looks like i will wait for Nick to give me the feedback:thumbsup:

[carlin]

[QUOTE=njc11;398834]They shouldnt be...

Around 4000 yen a pair and X Gear springs (made especially for these shocks, and as Shin already runs on his standard velvets!) at around 800 yen a pair!

Oh i hope so then cause if there less £100 these babies be on my shopping list too:thumbsup:

[ApexSpeed]

Around 4000 yen a pair and X Gear springs (made especially for these shocks, and as Shin already runs on his standard velvets!) at around 800 yen a pair!

Wow, I wonder how they are doing that? 4800 yen is about $55 a pair, which is cheaper than the current standard Velvets per pair.

Hmmm... :confused:

[njc11]

Dont forget these are Japan prices, they could be more when they reach our shores..

Someone correct me if im wrong but velvets here in the UK are about £35 a pair??? So i reckon these new ones could be about £45 a pair here??

Still expensive.. but still cheaper than the Yokomo X Shocks!

Neil.. have FDL heard nothing yet?

:thumbsup:

[paulc]

The velvets are £40 a pair so the big bore ones will be more exspensive by £10 ish i reckon. It's not just the shocks though it's getting new springs too the standard ones are around £6 apair i think if the big bore ones are the same price you will probably need 2-3 pair for the front and 2-3 pair for the rear so you could be looking at another 35 to 40 quid on springs

All that said they do look verrrry nice also look better anodized red :thumbsup:

Paul

[olefiloux]

Big bore is just a fashion style made by petrol and oil industries to increase oil consumption!!!!!......:woot:


Whatever, From a nice Japan shop....*

Kyosho announced they will release new big bore shocks around early September.
Here is information for them.

Kyosho W5303V VVC Triple cap threaded big bore shock set (30) Front Discounted price 3896Yen
Kyosho W5304V VVC Triple cap threaded big bore shock set (38) Rear Discounted price 4043Yen
Kyosho W5303-01V VVC Triple cap threaded big bore shock case (30/1pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho W5303-02BL Shock cap (Blue/2pcs/For Big bore shocks) Discounted price 368Yen
Kyosho W5303-03 Shock seal (L/4pcs/For Big bore shocks) Discounted price 221Yen
Kyosho W5303-04BL Seal cartrige (Blue/2sets/For Big bore shocks) Discounted price 809Yen
Kyosho W5303-05 Shock plastic parts set (2sets/For Big bore shocks) Discounted price 331Yen
Kyosho W5303-06 Shock piston (2pcs/For Big bore shocks) Discounted price 294Yen
Kyosho W5304-01V VVC Triple cap threaded big bore shock case (38/1pcs) Discounted price 956Yen

Kyosho XGS001 Big bore shock spring (Pink/Soft/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho XGS002 Big bore shock spring (White/Medium Soft/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho XGS003 Big bore shock spring (Gold/Medium/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho XGS004 Big bore shock spring (Red/Medium Hard/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho XGS005 Big bore shock spring (Yellow/Hard/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho XGS011 Big bore shock spring (Pink/Soft/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho XGS012 Big bore shock spring (White/Medium Soft/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho XGS013 Big bore shock spring (Gold/Medium/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho XGS014 Big bore shock spring (Red/Medium Hard/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen
Kyosho XGS015 Big bore shock spring (Yellow/Hard/2pcs) Discounted price 882Yen

Up to you !

[Fabs]

The Kyosho shocks are already excellent, so I'm not sure how much of an improvement these new shocks will be. I guess I'll have to ask Shin :thumbsup:

[mof]

Well it looks like JT is running these shocks too.

He's currently running them on the RB5 & ZX5 FS2

Judging from this pic, I am not quite sure about he running the big bores on the ZX5... http://upgraderc.smugmug.com/Other/2010-Hotrod-Hobbies-Shootout/12940272_6HG9B#936697867_WRSty-O-LB

Of course, he might be, and I could be wrong...

[NitroArgi]

Yeap this pic shows stock dampers on the ZX5 but big bores on Tebo's 2WD!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[jimmy]

Perchance he only had one set to test

Perchance he is happy with the zx5 setup and doesn't want to risk setup changes at a big race meeting?

Perchance he thinks the big bores are all hype and only put them on one car to satisfy the sponsors?
:lol:

[jaank]

Where do you get X-Gear springs?

And i have to admit - Thouse big-bores are H0T:p

[ApexSpeed]

Where do you get X-Gear springs?

Looks like the Kyosho spring part numbers infer that they ARE the X-Gear springs they are selling as Kyosho parts.



So does anyone know or have seen the Kyosho retail price in yen? Looks like that Japanese hobby shop price is really good, all things considered, but not knowing what shop that is, or how much they sell the standard Velvets for, the price isn't relative to anything.

Using the Kyosho site as a baseline, the RB5 Velvet standard front shocks (30mm) are $51.99/4,305 yen and the rears (42mm) are $54.99/4,515 yen, retail. If the prices listed as "discounted" by the hobby shop are any indication of street price, these new big bore shocks might be VERY similar in price to the standard Velvet shocks.

Definitely something to consider for anyone upgrading, or starting from scratch. You could probably still sell the small bore Velvets for close to what they are worth new, too, and re-coup some of the expense.


In that case, not a bad upgrade if they help the car and don't change the Cg/roll heights too much.


I would think on an RT5 or SC, they might even be more noticeable in feel. I wonder why Tebo used them on the RB5 and not the FS?



dc

[olefiloux]

The japanese shop is RC Champs.
The big bore price is quite equal to normal triple cap shocks, seems that springs are more expensive.

[olefiloux]

This pic of the top ten cars is quite clear I think....
http://www.xfactoryrc.com/rc/Galleries/2010ShootOut/2010HRShootOut086.jpg

[carlin]

This pic of the top ten cars is quite clear I think....
http://www.xfactoryrc.com/rc/Galleries/2010ShootOut/2010HRShootOut086.jpg

Yeah he seems to be running them on his ZX5 FS2, RT5, SC10 but not on the SP2 perhaps he is limited on how many shocks he has or just swapping them from car to car
There pics on the Xfactory website with his RT5 etc with big bores on

[SimonW]

I think you will find that unless they redesign the front shock tower they will never fit on the SP2, hence sticking with the smaller ones, and i guess the difference in performance would suggest that mix and match would not work either.

[major3d]

So the rb5sp2 will not have big bore shocks? I was waiting for the kit to include the shocks. Sounds like they will not be included and I should buy the kit now.

[RogerM]

I wouldn't mind betting that they will find there way into kits, Kyosho normally do updates on the kits when there are significant design changes but it is usually a couple of months or so before that happens following the parts release. Makes sense if you think about it as they have to purge the stocks of kits with the old parts in or else they would never sell them.

To be fair if you don't have an RB5 at the moment or like me have one with many miles on the clock I'd just buy a new car now and worry about the other stuff later. The Stock RB5-SP2 is still a cracking car and again, it's all in the box!!!

[Aaran]

having more volume in the shock means you can run the shock softer ( a lighter oil and softer spring). so on a very rough surface with big jumps it will ride alot better and provide better dampening. ill admit you wont be able to tell much differance on somthing that rolls in jsut over a kilo, but on a 10kg+ 1/5th going from a 2cmx14cm diamiter shock that would hold about 10cc of oil to a 3cm widex20cm long shocker that will hold almost 45cc made the world of differance!

[Funkymojo]

Saw the Kyosho big bore shocks at my local hobby store. They look awesome and they come in 3 lengths, 30mm, 40mm and 42mm... :woot::thumbsup:

[carlin]

Saw the Kyosho big bore shocks at my local hobby store. They look awesome and they come in 3 lengths, 30mm, 40mm and 42mm... :woot::thumbsup:

What shop was that at?

[ryanlownie]

Guessing at Singapore?

[carlin]

So is anyone playing with this Big bores yet?

[STP]

Fits the subject: B4's with standard shocks on the left and Yokomo BB's on the right.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4698852557_557b448950.jpg

Thats my B4 with the Yokomo Big Bores on. Looks soooo porno with my paint scheme and fits on the front without any mods. Just some shims needed between the tower and the shock bushing. At the rear end its quite close but fits...
The car on the left is from Michael Vollmer (Desinger of all the nice Team Durango Cars out there...).

http://www.redrc.net/2010/06/northern-german-electric-off-road-regional-rd4/

http://www.redrc.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/NorthGermanRd4-400x266.jpg

But to be fair... I won both classes (2wd and 4wd) with the normal Yokomo shocks on. Nevertheless afterwards we tried the BB on the B4 and they worked quite well. Depending on the track and the weigth of the car you might need the s, ss or even the sss-springs from Yokomo, as the kit springs are a bit on the firm side. Normally i have the BB installed on my B-Max4 and the ususal Yokomo shocks on the B4.

Regards

[mikeyscott]

Anyone order these yet?

[ryanlownie]

Fingers crossed they should be available from the UK within the next 2 weeks. I'm estimating the price to be around £55 per pair (front or rear). Springs should be about £11.99 per pair too. This is going off prices available right now and please note that this could change, it's not a definite price yet.

[RogerM]

Ryan,

keep us posted on the stock situation please. I really want to get my hands on a set of these as soon as they land!

I owe you a mail for an order, not forgoten .. just finding time to sort through my stocks :(

[Gayo]

Anyone order these yet?
Got mine from RC Champ last week.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5726/p1020462y.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/588/p1020461j.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9209/p1020464o.jpg

[mikeyscott]

V nice.

What shocks towers are they? Atomic Carbon?

[Gayo]

V nice.

What shocks towers are they? Atomic Carbon?

They are 3Racing I found on eBay. I glued 2 together on front.

[RogerM]

Some new towers, in thick carbon, coming soon. Slightly revised geometry and a couple of other little tweeks. Will keep everybody posted as soon as I have the full details.

[LRP]

Some new towers, in thick carbon, coming soon. Slightly revised geometry and a couple of other little tweeks. Will keep everybody posted as soon as I have the full details.

any news on carbon s/towers ???

[Darren Boyle]

We have some new "DMS Partz" ones about to be unveiled this coming week, direct fit for all the Lazers including the FS2....

[RogerM]

any news on carbon s/towers ???

Not quite ready to put them out in public yet, still testing them. We like to do our development not our racers :)

The towers we have are not direct replacement for the kit towers in as much as they change the shock geometry in response to feedback from FS drivers. The result is a smoother car to drive and the only slight chink in the FS's otherwise perfect armour fixed. The aim was to make an awesome car faultless :D

[Mr. Red]

Are they sold like a complete shock set or do you have to buy the parts separately? Part number if that is the case please?

[ryanlownie]

W5303V and W5304V for the shocks.

The X-Gear springs are:

XGS001, XGS002, XGS003, XGS004, XGS005
XGS011, XGS012, XGS013, XGS014, XGS015