Michael Schumacher penalised

[bodgit]

Michael Schumacher will be penalised 10 grid places at the next Grand Prix after a move Rubens Barrichello called the most dangerous in his long career.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8875352.stm
I hve not seen such a dangerous deliberate move like that for a long time. Probably Schumacher was the last person I saw do something that stupid too.
At 180mph That could have ended in death and I think he got off too lightly. He deserves a ban from the next race at least.
Having looked at the video again there is a lot of rubber on that wall.

[mark christopher]

should have banned the big headed dick!

[carlin]

Dam right he should be band & nice fine for him to pay out his own pocket instead.

I cant stand the cock anyways just like the old days dirty driving again

[SlowOne]

Come on guys, no need for personal insults and being downright rude to make your points...

I'm not sure if the stewards can issue race bans, anyone know what they're limits are on this offence? It deserved one IMHO. Did anyone else notice that when Rubens passes the wall within a whisker of taking his left front wheel off, his right front is actually between Schui's front and rear wheels? If they'd been wheel-to-wheel, Rubens would have hit the wall!! :wtf:

Along with all his other records, Schui holds the least enviable of them all - he's the only person in the history of GP racing to have been penalised twice for dangerous driving. In 1997, he was disqualified from the Championship, with no points, for driving into the side of Villenueve, and now this. The numbers are unarguable, but he will struggle to be called 'great' unless you have blinkers on!

I did enjoy Norbert Haug's interview. Listen carefully and he doesn't support Schui at all, he merely repeats what Schui said in his interview. It's to be hoped that Norbert will storngly point out to Schui that this sort of behaviour is not only very dangerous, but puts his team in a poor light, and the Mercedes name. All I can do from here is vow never to buy a Merc (or a Ferrari, but that's a bit like saying I'll not buy an island in the Caribbean - I can't afford one!!) and discourage anyone I know from buying one.

Banned for at least one race is the least we could expect, and the least the rest of the field, who have to be on the same track as him, expect. Bad show from a bad driver.

[DCM]

He used to be fast and dirty, now he is just dirty..... pull his super licence!

[SlowOne]

He used to be fast and dirty, now he is just dirty..... pull his super licence!LOL - nice one DCM. :thumbsup:

[telboy]

He used to be fast and dirty, now he is just dirty..... pull his super licence!

Damn right! As mentioned earlier, that move could have ended in a death!
He should have his licence taken off him and give it to someone that desrves a drive in that car, rather than giving it to an 'also-ran' ex-champ, who is WELL past his sell by date!
He can't make his name from racing up front, so he's doing stupid things just to get some of the limelight!

he was slapped on the wrist for dangerous driving at Canada earlier in the year, so thats twice in one year!

Get him out of the car!

Can't believe he's gonna be taking a job from another talented star next year too!
Retire while you look a bit stupid old man! not in a year when the car, that'll no doubt be designed 'around you', is still not enough for you to win....and you once more get you're arse kicked by your younger team mate, and makes you look REALLY stupid!

[wacattack]

Come on guys, no need for personal insults and being downright rude to make your points...



Bad show from a bad driver.

:woot:

HAHAHAHA Kettle & pan n all that

[Skodes]

Dam right he should be band & nice fine for him to pay out his own pocket instead.

Fines for sports stars are useless though. The guy's got a personal fortune of over £850,000,000 and the fine would probably only be about £10,000.

Stu

[big air]

I think he will one to beat next year with the new car :thumbsup:


schumacher fan :p

[matthew]

What you need to ask yourselfs who is the most successful F1 driver of all time???? I know what he done today was dangerous but im sure he knows that he made a mistake and shouldn of pulled over as far as he did or maybe he should of tried defending sooner but at the end of the day no one here knows what it is like to drive a F1 car and at the speeds they do so I dont really think its right that you can slag off one of the best GP drivers of all time. :p
Im not a fan of his BTW, hamilton is the man I want to win the championship,I cant believe he went out today due to gearbox issues and webber knocking him down to second in the championship :cry:, still think he's got a very good chance of winning:thumbsup:

[Alfonzo]

I'm bloody glad he did what he did.







It stopped me falling asleep towards the end of the race :woot:

Seriously though - it did look mighty dodgy didn't it?

[wacattack]

but at the end of the day no one here knows what it is like to drive a F1 car and at the speeds they do so I dont really think its right that you can slag off one of the best GP drivers of all time.

we don't, but the other drivers do and they all condemned the move which just supports our theory that the move was outrageous

[telboy]

What you need to ask yourselfs who is the most successful F1 driver of all time????

They're only statistics!
If he hadn't been in the best car all the time he wouldn't have been the best on paper. Look at times when he didn't have the best car....he did nothing!
Senna on the other hand could make any car he had, win!

So I'm sorry, just because a set on numbers say he is, i think Schuey (even in his glory years) is far from the best driver of all time.


They need to show this to MR Schumacher......
je71qzTdzx0

...a similar incident, it happened in the superleague at brands today...and these cars don't do the speeds that he and Barrichello were at when he made his rediculous manouvre!

And no, we don't know what its like to drive an F1 car, but we've (probably) all had an accident at low road speeds, so can only imagine what an accident at that speed would've been like. And wether he's one of the best GP drivers of all time or not, we can slag anyone off that makes such a STUPID move at those speeds!! We only need to look at the above video to see how bad it 'could've' turned out!!

[matthew]

we don't, but the other drivers do and they all condemned the move which just supports our theory that the move was outrageous

I think we have all seen alot worse tbh, its all because its schumacher and the fact that he has had history with rubens, I really do think people are making a big deal out of this if it wasnt schumy involved I doubt people would be making such a big fuss over a bit of hard racing. JUST MY OPINION :)

[matthew]

They're only statistics!
If he hadn't been in the best car all the time he wouldn't have been the best on paper. Look at times when he didn't have the best car....he did nothing!
Senna on the other hand could make any car he had, win!

So I'm sorry, just because a set on numbers say he is, i think Schuey (even in his glory years) is far from the best driver of all time.


They need to show this to MR Schumacher......
je71qzTdzx0

...a similar incident, it happened in the superleague at brands today...and these cars don't do the speeds that he and Barrichello were at when he made his rediculous manouvre!

And no, we don't know what its like to drive an F1 car, but we've (probably) all had an accident at low road speeds, so can only imagine what an accident at that speed would've been like. And wether he's one of the best GP drivers of all time or not, we can slag anyone off that makes such a STUPID move at those speeds!! We only need to look at the above video to see how bad it 'could've' turned out!!
Fair enough not goin to get into who was or is the best driver of all time... What I said above is just my opinions :)

[Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson]

I don't really think that us not knowing what it's like to drive an F1 car has anything to do with it, its common sense not to force somebody towards a concrete wall at 200MPH!! You wouldn't do that in your road car at 30MPH because it's just stupid!!!

It's more to do with him spitting his dummy out (again) because he was going to be over taken, simples!

He is far from the best driver of all time, if he was that good he would still be getting results today using ANY car, it's not like he has come back after a 10 year gap and everything has changed, they are basically the same cars as he was driving before! in fact, he should have an advantage over his younger team mate as he drove the cars in the past with no traction control, slick tyres etc....

He had the best team and the best support, nothing else!

[telboy]

its all because its schumacher and the fact that he has had history with rubens,

I don't think its anything to do with that!?
It would've had the same reaction had it been anyone else. but seeing as he has been in trouble for it this year already should've made him think about the way he drives but it hasn't.

He get this stigma because he thinks he is above the powers that be, just because of his name! His arrogance leads him to think that he can get away with this sort of driving.
The reason why it looks as though it is him getting all the bad press all the time, is because HE does these things!!
We've not seen anyone else being pushed that close to the wall at those speeds for a LONG time!

[Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson]

I think we have all seen alot worse tbh, its all because its schumacher and the fact that he has had history with rubens, I really do think people are making a big deal out of this if it wasnt schumy involved I doubt people would be making such a big fuss over a bit of hard racing. JUST MY OPINION :)

Yeah mainly from Schumacher :) lol

I think it's because it's Schumacher that he has got away with it so lightly to be honest, if that was Hamilton, Button, or Webber for example, there would have been complete uproar :bored:

[BagofSkill]

I think it was very rude and I had my heart in my mouth just watching it, but then, do we actually expect anything else from Schumacher? It just goes to prove he'd pull that manouvre for the world championship or for 10th place in a gp, that is the man. At least he's consistent.

I do think the outcry is a bit of a overeaction though. Vettel (the young Schu- don't forget) has done the same thing at least 3 times on his own team mate this year alone, twice off the start and once in Turkey leading to a high speed crash. There was a lot less outcry for that, and no penalties at all.

I'd say the 10 place drop is fair and let that be an end to it.

[Nick Goodall]

I think it was very rude and I had my heart in my mouth just watching it, but then, do we actually expect anything else from Schumacher? It just goes to prove he'd pull that manouvre for the world championship or for 10th place in a gp, that is the man. At least he's consistent.

I do think the outcry is a bit of a overeaction though. Vettel (the young Schu- don't forget) has done the same thing at least 3 times on his own team mate this year alone, twice off the start and once in Turkey leading to a high speed crash. There was a lot less outcry for that, and no penalties at all.

I'd say the 10 place drop is fair and let that be an end to it.

Well said, i think the fact that nothing happened (luckily to Ruebens) is the best outcome from this, he was luckily able to pass and carry on, nothing happened although it was close.....

If all Close ones or potentially dangerous moves were penalised, everyone would be 10 spaces back by now, certainly at some stage - I know potentially this one could have been worse due to the speeds involved, but nobody really knows what the outcome could have been in some of the lower speed moves we've seen......

Webber shunting off Hamilton in Aus for apparently no reason, luckily he still managed to get back on track and finish but it was still dangerous driving....

Webber ramming the Lotus up the rear and getting air-bourne, that was his fault but was still technically dangerous driving - what if he'd killed the guy driving the Lotus?

I think people have been desperate to put down Mr Schumacher as soon as he announced his return, it's a shame really as i still believe if he was in the McLaren or Red Bull he would be right up there - i think he'd certainly be splitting Hamilton and Button at McLaren, and possibly be quicker then Webber at Red Bull... (IMO of course)

Everyone was anticipating this to be the most exciting year of F1 for ages, the viewing figures must have gone through the roof with the likes of Michael coming back so at least he's doing his part to keep it interesting / exciting :lol:

Greatest ever or not, i don't think anyone can doubt he's a winner at all costs and ALL great Champions are like that, even Senna was dirty as hell when he had to be.

[Matt-h]

Greatest ever or not, i don't think anyone can doubt he's a winner at all costs and ALL great Champions are like that, even Senna was dirty as hell when he had to be.

But Senna never denied being like that and everyone knew what he was going to do.

Schumachers sheer arogance,denial and thinking he can bullshit his way through an interview is what gets people so wound up.

The bloke is a liability! Fact!

[Mouton]

Does a champ need to be PC? It is OK for rock stars and movie stars to be rude. Why cannot a F1 champ allow himself to be rude? It's is OK for Schumacher to be rude to journalists when he's in white racing overalls and calls himself The Stig, right?

Jeremy Clarkson can also be rude (sometimes he is even downright arrogant to people) and he is considered funny. I like Clarkson and find most of his and May's (Hamster, however, I would only be glad so see replaced by something more funny, like a brick or Sabine Schmidt so the show could get three excellent presenter.

I am not defending Schumacher's actions, merely questioning why everything must be som PC in our day and age?

He is the most successful driver in the sport. Beeing so makes many hate him, beeing German make some hate him as well. While English is not my native langueage, I believe you spell the explanation to that hatred jealousy.

I missed the race so I will not comment on the incident itself. I do, however believe that no man is perfect, and apparently the most succesful man in the sport has made a misstake that that luckily did not lead to any fatalites (something other reckless F1-drives have).

[bodgit]

I missed the race so I will not comment on the incident itself. I do, however believe that no man is perfect, and apparently the most succesful man in the sport has made a misstake that that luckily did not lead to any fatalites (something other reckless F1-drives have).

He did not make a mistake. It was a deliberate act. He claims to have tried to have tried to make Rubans overtake on his left, but he saw him in the mirrors and alongside him interlocking wheels. I really think if Rubans had have hit the wall he would not have cared less.
DC got it right. He said Schumacher for all his greatness dosent know when to give it up and I wonder if that is what he should be thinking in terms of his comeback.
What is the point of implimenting all the safety features on the cars if you get one errant driver who will put anothers life at risk.
One last point. Was Schumacher not the drivers safety rep a few years back????

[Matt-h]

Does a champ need to be PC? It is OK for rock stars and movie stars to be rude. Why cannot a F1 champ allow himself to be rude? It's is OK for Schumacher to be rude to journalists when he's in white racing overalls and calls himself The Stig, right?

I am not defending Schumacher's actions, merely questioning why everything must be som PC in our day and age?.

Not sure what being PC has to do with this topic

[CHEVY]

he should be banned for ever:thumbsup: it is not the first time this season
he thinks he still has it i would raither see one of the hisppania:thumbsup:
drivers in the car at least thay show some race craft :thumbsup:

[Chrislong]

What happened in the pits was an incident, thankful that nobody got hurt. Could have been avoided but it wasn't intentional.

What happened with Schumacher was a deliberate act. He chose to force Ruebens over, he should have chosen to defend the position before Ruebens was by his side. But also he had more time to decide to do this than say Webber hitting the Lotus for example. Its clear to see he knew he was there, and what he was doing, its inexcusable. He made that decision, and its one that could have been fatal, get him out of the car, chop his arms and legs off and spear him onto a 200ft flag pole. :thumbsup:

[Matt-h]

big fan then :lol:

[Chrislong]

big fan then :lol:

Sure :lol:

[chalky]

its racing, your meant to make it hard for someone to pass or whats the point

you cant tell me bazza didnt know what was coming and he didnt back off

you make your choices in life they could be golfers instead, but choose to drive 200mph racing cars with the money and the danger it may bring

[Matt-h]

Please!

He could not back off!
He got along side him and then the door was shut - by this time RB already had position

Next you'll say it was Webbers fault in Turkey!

[PaulRotheram]

It was webbers fault in Turkey.









;):lol:

[bodgit]

And they say an F1 car can drive upside down. Did not look like it could to me. James Bond would have completed the roll, landed on 4 wheels and gone on to win the race and nob at least 10 girls on the stairs on his way up to collect the trophy.

[chalky]

if you think your getting put in the wall and theres a good chance your going to die you can back off

schue was just seeing how big bazzas balls are

and to be fair mellons spring to mind:thumbsup:

[bodgit]

Hard to back off when your front wheel is between another cars front and rear and you are less than 5mm from the wall.

[Matt-h]

And they say an F1 car can drive upside down. Did not look like it could to me. James Bond would have completed the roll, landed on 4 wheels and gone on to win the race and nob at least 10 girls on the stairs on his way up to collect the trophy.#

Ha ha ha. you know that!


Hard to back off when your front wheel is between another cars front and rear and you are less than 5mm from the wall..

Indeed. That was what i was trying to put across

[chalky]

Hard to back off when your front wheel is between another cars front and rear and you are less than 5mm from the wall.

but ok to keep excellerating which sends you in the air

backing off opposite effect

[Danosborne6661]

Always appreciated Schumachers ability to drive but when you see dirty drives like that I'd rather see him not racing to be honest

[poopers]

Schumacher’s a disgrace to the sport, and I’ve had that opinion since ’94.

There are plenty of legendary champions that have won without resulting to dirty tactics; Stewart, Clark, Hill (Graham), Häkkinen, Fittipaldi you could just go on. Comparing the incidents between Schu and Senna like the BBC consistently do is misguided too. The only time I’ve seen Senna ever be dirty was taking out Mansell at the end of the ’92 season, that was out of order. Taking out Prost in Japan was fair play as far as I was concerned. He warned them he'd not lift at the first corner if they moved his pole position. Here's the best part, there have been more commentated on dangerous moves by Schumacher in one race than Senna’s entire F1 career.

So to conclude, the FIA should shove a hot poker up Schumi’s ass ‘till he stops enjoying it.

[bodgit]

So to conclude, the FIA should shove a hot poker up Schumi’s ass ‘till he stops enjoying it.

Thats a bit harsh.
Personally I would like to see him sent to hell and like in the film
Little Nicky he could take over from Hiltler having a pineapple shoved up it every day :woot:

[Captain-Codpiece-The-2nd]

Stupid crout should've been kicked out when he rammed Hill years ago.

If he did that to my X6 on a model car track I would probably have pushed him off the rostrum and then teabagged his stupid face.

In his defence though he was funny as fook on top gear. :lol:
________
MAZDA (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mazda)

[bodgit]

Michael Schumacher has said he is "sorry" if Rubens Barrichello felt he had been put in danger by his blocking manoeuvre at the Hungarian Grand Prix. The Mercedes driver will be penalised 10 grid places at the next grand prix after he pushed his former team-mate within centimetres of a concrete wall.
Schumacher wrote on his website: "The manoeuvre against him was too hard.
"I didn't want to endanger him with my manoeuvre. If he had this feeling I am sorry, this was not my intention."
Full story http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8878400.stm
The pineapple has got him scared :thumbsup:

[SlowOne]

What you need to ask yourselfs who is the most successful F1 driver of all time???? How to be successful...

Rat on the first contract you have and shift to a bigger team.
Win first WC, then make sure you have an inferior team mate.
Welsh on that contract to go to team with unlimited budget.
Pinch all the good guys from your last team without paying any compensation.
Make sure you have a series of inferior team mates all with contracts to say your are No1.
Drive dangerously, whine and moan, get disqualified from the Championship.
Fail to help your team mate win the first WC for Ferrari since 1979.
And so on...

If that's what it takes to be successful, then let's have more failure. The guy folds regularly under pressure, and has an excuse for everything. Frankly, I'd rather have more 'failures' called Webber, Mansell, Piquet and Berger than one single Schumacher 'success'. And, judging from this thread and scores of others on the subject, I am not alone! But that's just MY opinion...

The truth seems to be that the guy has lost the art of making his tyres work, and can't seem to read them in the way the other guys can. Watch him in the car, he is constantly reacting to the car, not anticipating it and driving it. Whilst it has to be said that Webber's car was painted onto the track, in-car from Rosburg appeared that the guy was driving the car, whereas Schui was having the car drive him. I don't think it matters any more, the guy seems to have lost it.

[Chrislong]

the FIA should shove a hot poker up Schumi’s ass ‘till he stops enjoying it.

And what did the poor Poker do wrong? :lol:

To defend Schumachers actions is completely moronic. He had time to consider his choices, he chose late and very danderously. RB was committed making a ledgit' overtaking manouver when he was put into danger and the outcome was not in his hands, he was only able to limit the dissaster and he did a good job.

[Razer]

When all the heroes where dead or stopped racing, Schumi dominated. Along came a guy named Alonso, who although being a real whiner, showed godlike talents behind the wheel and beat Schumi.

Schumi has always been called a rainmaster, but Senna lapped both Schumi and Prost at Donington and Interlagos in '93, and I remember Alonso doing a fantastic outside pass on Schumi on rain...

The guy is a good racingdriver. Just like any other good racing driver. We all get this wrong, even though a driver talent is important, that's only a slight bit. Jenson Button was a decent driver. Along came Ross Brawn. Catch my drift? He's never gotten to show anyone that he rarely puts a foot wrong, that he's extremely smooth and tyre saving, plainly because he has been at the back of the field with a terrible car. Going to Mclaren he showed it's not just the car, he is a safe tactical expert at keeping out of trouble and getting points.

All other stuff is even more important. If you want pure driving talent, start following Jan Magnussen.

Webber is one of the best drivers today. My brother owned him at the tests before the '96 Formula Ford Zetec season, and Dane Kristian Kolby won the championship that year. Yet no one remembers Kristian or my brother Fredrik.
Off course, late blooming happens, but also money, the right people, the right image, hard work and a good pr man is what you need.

Regarding Schumi, he's had all this, and driving talent. Nothing supernatural, and sometimes mixed with dirty tactics, but good.

I have never really liked Rubens, but the more I see of him now, the more I like him. How's this for a great racing quote?

"I had to work pretty hard for the point in a fight that wasn’t fair or clean, but I will let others be the judge of that. All I am clear about is that I am a racer and in such situations, I never back off.”

[telboy]

When Schumi arrived back in '91 in the jordan I thought he was pretty good, a breath of fresh air amongst the 'oldies' that were around back then. Putting the 7up Jordan (which was an awesome car, they just had crap drivers) 6th on the grid while he deputised for Bertrand Gachot who was serving time for macing a police officer I think. Schumi only managed about 600yards before he burned the clutch out.
BUT it looked like we had a rising star in the Jordan....only for him to bugger off to benetton the very next race!?

He won his first race at spa a year later, but he still looked pretty good. Then he started getting the arse on when ever he got beat by his team mate. I remember when they draughted Johnny Herbert in at benetton. They obviously thought he'd be no where as fast as Schuey. Then Testing (yes they tested back then) showed that Herbert was quicker than Schuey....thats when Schuey had it put into his contract that his team mate couldn't see his data. Then Herbert actually beat him in a race and won a race...Then he started with the 'I want all the new parts on my car' cry. At this point I went right off Mr Schumacher.

Then obviously he moved to Ferrari and would only have a deffinate No1 status and that his team mates couldn't have a car better than his.

its all a load of rubbish. If he WAS a champion driver he would take his team mates on with the same equipment and information and not spit his dummy out when he gets beat.
It says to me that he had a lack of confidence in his own ability to win, for him to have so many conditions in his contracts to slow his team mates down or stop them from beating him.

I don't think he will get the same treatment if Mercedes have anything to do with the contracts. If it was just Ross Brawn then yes he would, but I think Merc' will have a say in his deals as Rosberg has a dad who i'm sure is very forceful when it comes to contract time.

ross brawn was the Driving force behind Schueys glory years and I would say that he was 90% responsible for Schueys success.

[big air]

When Schumi arrived back in '91 in the jordan I thought he was pretty good, a breath of fresh air amongst the 'oldies' that were around back then. Putting the 7up Jordan (which was an awesome car, they just had crap drivers) 6th on the grid while he deputised for Bertrand Gachot who was serving time for macing a police officer I think. Schumi only managed about 600yards before he burned the clutch out.
BUT it looked like we had a rising star in the Jordan....only for him to bugger off to benetton the very next race!?

He won his first race at spa a year later, but he still looked pretty good. Then he started getting the arse on when ever he got beat by his team mate. I remember when they draughted Johnny Herbert in at benetton. They obviously thought he'd be no where as fast as Schuey. Then Testing (yes they tested back then) showed that Herbert was quicker than Schuey....thats when Schuey had it put into his contract that his team mate couldn't see his data. Then Herbert actually beat him in a race and won a race...Then he started with the 'I want all the new parts on my car' cry. At this point I went right off Mr Schumacher.

Then obviously he moved to Ferrari and would only have a deffinate No1 status and that his team mates couldn't have a car better than his.

its all a load of rubbish. If he WAS a champion driver he would take his team mates on with the same equipment and information and not spit his dummy out when he gets beat.
It says to me that he had a lack of confidence in his own ability to win, for him to have so many conditions in his contracts to slow his team mates down or stop them from beating him.

I don't think he will get the same treatment if Mercedes have anything to do with the contracts. If it was just Ross Brawn then yes he would, but I think Merc' will have a say in his deals as Rosberg has a dad who i'm sure is very forceful when it comes to contract time.

ross brawn was the Driving force behind Schueys glory years and I would say that he was 90% responsible for Schueys success.


I think Schuey deserves more than 10% of his success giving the fact that he was the one who drove the car round the track.

And i can't see Ferrari giving him a better car so he can beat his team mate who drives for Ferrari :confused: More like he got the upgrades first as he was the no1 driver.

Is his contract for Ferrari in the public domain??

[big air]

^^^^^

[moth898]

Does anyone remember when Shcumacher deliberately ran his car into Jacques villeneuve when he couldn't beat him....the moron is dangerous.

[Xizor]

It's difficult to judge who is the best driver when the cars are so varied.
Right now the Red Bull's are so superior on the high downforce tracks that I reckon any of them could win with it. IMO it's flattering Webber and Vettel's driving skills.
For my money Hamilton's the man.

As for Shuey, go back to your pipe and slippers before it gets embarrasing.:blush:

PS. I think you'll find the late, great, Ayrton Senna did his fair share of ramming!

[i4n]

I've just seen on the ITV F1 site that had there been more laps remaining of the race after seeing the video evidence, the stewards would have black flagged Schumacher.

[Nick Goodall]

Does NOBODY equally remember what a shambles Ferrari were when MS joined them??? That first year alone he managed to get some seriously impressive results including a couple of wins with an absolute DOG of a car - He and Ross Brawn completely changed the mental attitude at Ferrari - It was a team where if the car went out due to a failure, the first thing they would do was find who was at fault and fire them there and then..... This was changed significantly when Michael arrived, they went to a we Win together, we lose together team and it didn't take long to start winning.

People bitch and moan about Ferrari using an unlimited budget, but how "limited" do you really thing the likes of Mclaren & Williams were at the time? They were all throwing obscene amounts at the sport and that's never changed.

You also forget that the Williams car in 1994-1997 was by far the best car of the lot but Michael still managed to beat them and if not at least take the title to the wire most seasons with (particularly the Ferrari) a far from superior car.

I don't think anyone has the right to say he was only 10% responsible for his own success, no matter how good the car was he would still have to drive it - That's no different to saying any World Champion was only 10% of the package, you could even say that in R/C but this is just never the case. Fair enough you have to have a good car to win, but Top drivers ALWAYS shine through and win in the end and i will never ever not believe Michael is simply one of the best F1 drivers of all time.

I can't believe how much hatred people have for him, i know he's done a fair few controversial things in his career but anyone who loves the sport should be able to appreciate anyone with as much talent as he's got, even if you don't like him as a person.

Some stats that are impossible to argue with:

Consecutive Seasons with a win: 1992-2006 - How can anyone say that is all because he had a better car then everyone else? He won at least one race EVERY season from 1992-2006?? That's incredible!

Championship Titles: 7 - No way on earth could this ALL be down to 10% of his input, it's just not possible.

Race Wins: 91 - 91!!!!!!!

Wins at same GP: 8 in France - He won the French Grand Prix 8 TIMES, how can anyone argue this stuff.... it's embarrassing lol.

[big air]

Does NOBODY equally remember what a shambles Ferrari were when MS joined them??? That first year alone he managed to get some seriously impressive results including a couple of wins with an absolute DOG of a car - He and Ross Brawn completely changed the mental attitude at Ferrari - It was a team where if the car went out due to a failure, the first thing they would do was find who was at fault and fire them there and then..... This was changed significantly when Michael arrived, they went to a we Win together, we lose together team and it didn't take long to start winning.

People bitch and moan about Ferrari using an unlimited budget, but how "limited" do you really thing the likes of Mclaren & Williams were at the time? They were all throwing obscene amounts at the sport and that's never changed.


You also forget that the Williams car in 1994-1997 was by far the best car of the lot but Michael still managed to beat them and if not at least take the title to the wire most seasons with (particularly the Ferrari) a far from superior car.

I don't think anyone has the right to say he was only 10% responsible for his own success, no matter how good the car was he would still have to drive it - That's no different to saying any World Champion was only 10% of the package, you could even say that in R/C but this is just never the case. Fair enough you have to have a good car to win, but Top drivers ALWAYS shine through and win in the end and i will never ever not believe Michael is simply one of the best F1 drivers of all time.

I can't believe how much hatred people have for him, i know he's done a fair few controversial things in his career but anyone who loves the sport should be able to appreciate anyone with as much talent as he's got, even if you don't like him as a person.

Some stats that are impossible to argue with:

Consecutive Seasons with a win: 1992-2006 - How can anyone say that is all because he had a better car then everyone else? He won at least one race EVERY season from 1992-2006?? That's incredible!

Championship Titles: 7 - No way on earth could this ALL be down to 10% of his input, it's just not possible.

Race Wins: 91 - 91!!!!!!!

Wins at same GP: 8 in France - He won the French Grand Prix 8 TIMES, how can anyone argue this stuff.... it's embarrassing lol.

Well Said :thumbsup:

[RudeTony]

I want to snap Vettels pointing finger off and stuff it in Schumachers ???

Come on Jenson/Lewis show them the way......

Sorry lads - can't stand either of them............

[Nick Goodall]

I want to snap Vettels pointing finger off and stuff it in Schumachers ???

Come on Jenson/Lewis show them the way......

Sorry lads - can't stand either of them............

I do agree with you about Vettel and his ultra annoying "Number 1" style pointing he does, i cringe everytime i see that from him, especially as he so rarely wins from pole too haha.

[DCM]

You can't just have a good driver and nothing else right, for you to be as dominant as he was. Yes Schumacher was a good driver, great statesgist and a master at manipulating a team around him, whether people liked it or not!! But I think Ross Brawn has been the driving force behind his success. Since leaving Ferrari, it has taken them a couple of years to regroup, and now got Alonso doing the same thing.

In the end, Schumacher was a great driver, I am no way a fan, he made F1 boring for to many years, but that is ALL in the past now, and you have to judge his performance on the hear and now, and personally, I think he is past it, there have been passes on him which he never seen coming and were so obvious, then we have what he did to Rubens. And I don't like it, but agree with Eddie Jordan, all he is doing now, is wrecking his reputation!

[Nick Goodall]

You can't just have a good driver and nothing else right, for you to be as dominant as he was. Yes Schumacher was a good driver, great statesgist and a master at manipulating a team around him, whether people liked it or not!! But I think Ross Brawn has been the driving force behind his success. Since leaving Ferrari, it has taken them a couple of years to regroup, and now got Alonso doing the same thing.

In the end, Schumacher was a great driver, I am no way a fan, he made F1 boring for to many years, but that is ALL in the past now, and you have to judge his performance on the hear and now, and personally, I think he is past it, there have been passes on him which he never seen coming and were so obvious, then we have what he did to Rubens. And I don't like it, but agree with Eddie Jordan, all he is doing now, is wrecking his reputation!

I don't see that he's been that far off Rosberg though, some of the races he's been quicker so it's hard to judge him when the car is so clearly way off the pace.....

I think Lewis has been quicker then Jenson by more of a margin then Rosberg over MS but nobody seems to be saying Jenson is past it??

I think we'll have to give him 2011 and see if RB has managed to create another decent car or not, if the car's quick and MS is still off the pace i'll hold my hands up but i still believe in the right car he would be right up there mixing it up.

[DCM]

I think people were expecting it to be even or even Schumi showing the young upstart the way to go, but been far from it, Rosberg has made the best of an average car.

[Nick Goodall]

I just went through the times on F1.com and found this info thinking it might be interesting to see how slow Schumacher's been compared to Rosberg, and the differences between Lewis & Jenson

Bahrain:
Q3 Rosberg 1:55.241
Q3 Schumacher 1:55.524 (+0.283)

Q3 Hamilton 1:55.217
Q3 Button 1:55.672 (+0.455)

Australia:
Q3 Rosberg 1:24.884
Q3 Schumacher 1:24.927 (+0.043)

Q2 Hamilton 1:25.184 (+0.653) (Didn't make it to Q3)
Q2 Button 1:24.531

Malaysia
Q3 Rosberg 1:50.673
Q3 Schumacher 1:51.717 (+1.044)

Q1 Hamilton 1:53.050 (+0.839) - Neither made it out of Q1
Q1 Button 1:52.211

China
Q3 Rosberg 1:34.923
Q3 Schumacher 1:35.646 (+0.723)

Q3 Hamilton 1:35.034 (+0.055)
Q3 Button 1:34.979

Spain
Q3 Rosberg 1:21.408 (+0.114)
Q3 Schumacher 1:21.294

Q3 Hamilton 1:20.829
Q3 Button 1:20.991 (+0.162)

Monaco
Q3 Rosberg 1:14.544
Q3 Schumacher 1:14.590 (+0.046)

Q3 Hamilton 1:14.432
Q3 Button 1:14.637 (+0.205)

Turkey
Q3 Rosberg 1:26.952 (+0.095)
Q3 Schumacher 1:26.857

Q3 Hamilton 1:26.433
Q3 Button 1:26.781 (+0.348)

Canada
Q2 Rosberg 1:16.001
Q2 Schumacher 1:16.492 (+0.491)

Q3 Hamilton 1:15.105
Q3 Button 1:15.520 (+0.415)

Valencia
Q2 Rosberg 1:38.627
Q2 Schumacher 1:39.234 (+0.607)

Q3 Hamilton 1:37.969
Q3 Button 1:38.210 (+0.241)

Silverstone
Q2 Rosberg 1:31.085 (+0.063)
Q2 Schumacher 1:31.022

Q2 Hamilton 1:31.118
Q2 Button 1:31.699 (+0.581)

Germany
Q2 Rosberg 1:15.018
Q2 Schumacher 1:15.026 (+0.008)

Q3 Hamilton 1:14.566 (+0.139)
Q3 Button 1:14.427

Hungary
Q2 Rosberg 1:20.811
Q2 Schumacher 1:21.630 (+0.819)

Q2 Hamilton 1:20.877
Q2 Button 1:21.292 (+0.415)

So really, if you look at that, i don't think Schumacher's actually disgraced himself against Rosberg anywhere near as much as Eddie Jordan would try and have us all believe!!!

[CHEVY]

put the fossil out to grass he is pastit never liked him

it was win or take out

why wont thay put youg driver in old b)%^&$d does not need money just
pubilistey stunt


if not leave him in garage as greese monkey :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[i4n]

It's obvious you're a Schumi fan then Nick..........

I think myself I would be a fan if he cleaned up his act (I suppose I've never forgiven him for punting Hill off to stop him winning the title) or when he was wrong/dirty admited it. This latest incident has highlighted this - it's fair to give people just enough room but in this case there wasn't; if the wheels hadn't of been interlocked Rubens would have been in the wall and becuase they were, Rubens couldn't back off from the pass. Only now he has come out saying he was 'a bit hard' on him.

That is something other good and hard drivers have done (Senna even announced publically that he wasn't going to brake for the first corner in Japan, then didn't punting Prost off!).

I do think he's a good driver though - I remember when he had that Ferrari stuck in 5th gear and still placed well in the race; I doubt anyone else on the grid could do something like that now.

[Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson]

Just face it, Schumacher is a T***!!
He's dangerous, clumsy, mardy, arrogant and big headed.

I agree with the comment about it being Ross Brawn who who brought him 90% of his success! I'm not just saying it because i don't like him either, it's a fact!

I don't like Alonso either, BUT i wont take it away from him he is a good driver!

It would be intresting to start a poll and keep it simple to see who thinks Schumacher is the best.

[SlowOne]

Does NOBODY equally remember what a shambles Ferrari were when MS joined them??? That first year alone he managed to get some seriously impressive results including a couple of wins with an absolute DOG of a car - He and Ross Brawn completely changed the mental attitude at Ferrari - It was a team where if the car went out due to a failure, the first thing they would do was find who was at fault and fire them there and then..... This was changed significantly when Michael arrived, they went to a we Win together, we lose together team and it didn't take long to start winning.

People bitch and moan about Ferrari using an unlimited budget, but how "limited" do you really thing the likes of Mclaren & Williams were at the time? They were all throwing obscene amounts at the sport and that's never changed.

You also forget that the Williams car in 1994-1997 was by far the best car of the lot but Michael still managed to beat them and if not at least take the title to the wire most seasons with (particularly the Ferrari) a far from superior car.

I don't think anyone has the right to say he was only 10% responsible for his own success, no matter how good the car was he would still have to drive it - That's no different to saying any World Champion was only 10% of the package, you could even say that in R/C but this is just never the case. Fair enough you have to have a good car to win, but Top drivers ALWAYS shine through and win in the end and i will never ever not believe Michael is simply one of the best F1 drivers of all time.

I can't believe how much hatred people have for him, i know he's done a fair few controversial things in his career but anyone who loves the sport should be able to appreciate anyone with as much talent as he's got, even if you don't like him as a person.

Some stats that are impossible to argue with:

Consecutive Seasons with a win: 1992-2006 - How can anyone say that is all because he had a better car then everyone else? He won at least one race EVERY season from 1992-2006?? That's incredible!

Championship Titles: 7 - No way on earth could this ALL be down to 10% of his input, it's just not possible.

Race Wins: 91 - 91!!!!!!!

Wins at same GP: 8 in France - He won the French Grand Prix 8 TIMES, how can anyone argue this stuff.... it's embarrassing lol.And one last statistic - number of times penalised or disqualified for dangerous driving - 3. Every other GP driver in the history of the sport - nil. It's embarrassing...

[Nick Goodall]

And one last statistic - number of times penalised or disqualified for dangerous driving - 3. Every other GP driver in the history of the sport - nil. It's embarrassing...

That doesn't really take away any of the facts of his success though, i just literally can't understand people saying 90% of his success was down to the car / team, how can that even be possible??

You could say that in any motorsport, but people rarely say Button only won last year because of his car or the same with Hill, Mansell, Villeneuve, Hakinen, Alonso - and in those cases, i think they're far more related to having the best car at the time.

Schumacher lapped everyone up to 3rd place in one wet race, when was the last time anyone did that?

[bodgit]

Schumacher lapped everyone up to 3rd place in one wet race, when was the last time anyone did that?
I remember this in one wet race. DC did not swerve into him he kept the same distance from the line throughout the corner. Herr flick seemed to turn into DC . Wish they had let them fight after DC would have murdered him.
mmXUtwSIzmM

[Nick Goodall]

The race he won in the Wet lapping up to 3rd was Spanish GP in 1996 - His first win for Ferrari...

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=eGNYrNaebfI&feature=related

That accident above was an odd one, either he suddenly caught the slipstream and couldn't see or DC just slowed down waaaay too much. I remember it though, that was where MS accused DC of trying to kill him :lol: That's what you call passion though, didn't see Ruebens doing any of that last week!

[telboy]

I could've brought the Spa incident up, but didn't because that was simply crap weather and shumi not being able to see DCs slower car. He did go off on one and blame DC for it, but to be honest neither was at fault. It happened to Senna in Australia when he plowed into brundle in the same way....but Senna didn't go storming off down the pit lane to punch Brundle.

To be honest last year it was all down to the fact that Button had THE best car for half the year. As soon as the other team caught up Button was no where, and I really lost the will to support him towards the end of the year and started supporting Barrichello more as he was doing a better job with what he had.
So that proves how much the car and team is the winning combination.

Don't get me wrong, when they build next years merc around schumi he will probably rise to the forefront again, which again will show that it is the car and team that make the difference to wether a driver can win or not.

BUT, a brilliant driver can make a bad/average car a winning car, as Senna used to. Schumacher struggled to do that. Which is why he moved Ross brawn and all the other members of the Benetton technical team over to Ferrari when he moved there.

He is obviously a good driver otherwise he wouldn't be where he is. But THE best, I don't think so, no matter what the statistics say.

Just my opinion. :)

[Nick Goodall]

I could've brought the Spa incident up, but didn't because that was simply crap weather and shumi not being able to see DCs slower car. He did go off on one and blame DC for it, but to be honest neither was at fault. It happened to Senna in Australia when he plowed into brundle in the same way....but Senna didn't go storming off down the pit lane to punch Brundle.

To be honest last year it was all down to the fact that Button had THE best car for half the year. As soon as the other team caught up Button was no where, and I really lost the will to support him towards the end of the year and started supporting Barrichello more as he was doing a better job with what he had.
So that proves how much the car and team is the winning combination.

Don't get me wrong, when they build next years merc around schumi he will probably rise to the forefront again, which again will show that it is the car and team that make the difference to wether a driver can win or not.

BUT, a brilliant driver can make a bad/average car a winning car, as Senna used to. Schumacher struggled to do that. Which is why he moved Ross brawn and all the other members of the Benetton technical team over to Ferrari when he moved there.

He is obviously a good driver otherwise he wouldn't be where he is. But THE best, I don't think so, no matter what the statistics say.

Just my opinion. :)

Nicely put Tel, i don't think these days anyone can make a bad car capable of winning though, i can't even remember the last time anyone really outperformed their car, people say Kubica has done it at Renault but i think Hungary proved with Petrov getting 6th that the car has always been good enough this year...

Schumacher definitely did it at Ferrari for those first few seasons, winning races that the Williams car was far more capable of doing so - I know they eventually became almost unbeatable but he still has some amazing drives and results with a couple of really bad cars....

I don't actually think he's the outright best ever, there's too many drivers to consider for that title and we'll never really know as hardly any of them got to compete against eachother - I just don't agree that he's "average" or only 10% of the package that won so many world titles, that is really just an insult to most F1 fans if you ask me - Why bother watching a sport if you honestly believe the driver is only 10% of it?

Why not take them out altogether and have the cars guided by Sat Nav?

I agree only a very good car can win these days, the Red Bull is far superior to the Mclaren at the moment but Lewis is just about hanging on to them through some great driving and generally being consitent - i still think he's got a good chance of winning this championship, and that would be a great achievement with this car but the car certainly isn't as slow as the Renault, Mercedes, Sauber, Torro Rosso, HRT, Virgin etc.... Nobody no matter how good they are would win in any of these on a regular basis (i.e unless there's freak weather, a big crash or something)!

[SHY]

Schumi is a dirty winner and a bad looser!

He was my favorite driver until he deliberately crashed into Villeneuve in 97 in the last race to try and win the championship... I just couldn't accept that. Everybody wants to win... but we have rules and sportsmanship to take into consideration.

No matter how many records he holds I'll only remember him for holding the record for being the most arrogant F1 driver of all time! :thumbsup:

[telboy]

Agreed Nick, These days the cars have SO much downforce that even an average car struggles against a very good one if it doesn't have the downforce.
Back in the 80's./90's they had little downforce and so it was all about chassis and mechanical grip....and driver talent. So there was more chance of a mid-bottom grid car to have good results....like the Minardi in the hands of Pier Luigi Martini, who had some awesome races with a bit of a shed....and the Leyton house car, under powered but had an awesome Adrian Newey designed chassis.
....Also the Lotus in the hands of Senna.;)

but that is what made that era so exciting as it was so close.

[Razer]

Nicely put Tel, i don't think these days anyone can make a bad car capable of winning though, i can't even remember the last time anyone really outperformed their car, people say Kubica has done it at Renault but i think Hungary proved with Petrov getting 6th that the car has always been good enough this year...

Schumacher definitely did it at Ferrari for those first few seasons, winning races that the Williams car was far more capable of doing so - I know they eventually became almost unbeatable but he still has some amazing drives and results with a couple of really bad cars....

I don't actually think he's the outright best ever, there's too many drivers to consider for that title and we'll never really know as hardly any of them got to compete against eachother - I just don't agree that he's "average" or only 10% of the package that won so many world titles, that is really just an insult to most F1 fans if you ask me - Why bother watching a sport if you honestly believe the driver is only 10% of it?

Why not take them out altogether and have the cars guided by Sat Nav?

I agree only a very good car can win these days, the Red Bull is far superior to the Mclaren at the moment but Lewis is just about hanging on to them through some great driving and generally being consitent - i still think he's got a good chance of winning this championship, and that would be a great achievement with this car but the car certainly isn't as slow as the Renault, Mercedes, Sauber, Torro Rosso, HRT, Virgin etc.... Nobody no matter how good they are would win in any of these on a regular basis (i.e unless there's freak weather, a big crash or something)!

About that, Petrov is said to be all mob money. He may be, but I would guess that mob dude saw his talent, because he's really done a good job this year.

A few other guys that do impress me are the Sauber boys:)

[SlowOne]

That doesn't really take away any of the facts of his success though, i just literally can't understand people saying 90% of his success was down to the car / team, how can that even be possible??

You could say that in any motorsport, but people rarely say Button only won last year because of his car or the same with Hill, Mansell, Villeneuve, Hakinen, Alonso - and in those cases, i think they're far more related to having the best car at the time.

Schumacher lapped everyone up to 3rd place in one wet race, when was the last time anyone did that?HE wasn't great, he was successful. Like all successful drivers he put in a few awesome performances. However...

He started getting good once the great drivers had gone - Prost, Senna, Mansell, Piquet et al - and there was no one even close to his ability or his team's budget until Alonso came along. Faced with one really good driver, the WCs dried up. All the above-mentioned were teamed with each other at some time, and they won despite that. I just don't think that you can ever call him great, whatever the numbers say.

Agreed Nick, These days the cars have SO much downforce that even an average car struggles against a very good one if it doesn't have the downforce.
Back in the 80's./90's they had little downforce and so it was all about chassis and mechanical grip....and driver talent. So there was more chance of a mid-bottom grid car to have good results....like the Minardi in the hands of Pier Luigi Martini, who had some awesome races with a bit of a shed....and the Leyton house car, under powered but had an awesome Adrian Newey designed chassis.
....Also the Lotus in the hands of Senna.;)

but that is what made that era so exciting as it was so close.Beg to differ Tel, but not so as to make a thing of it! The original Lotus 79 generated about 2 tonnes of downforce what with its closed skirts and full body-length diffusers. The Williams FW08 was reckoned to surpass that. Over the years, the Rule changes have served to reduce that until the current reckoning is they generate about 1200kg.

Your point is still well made, but a bit in reverse??!! If one car generates 50kg more than another, today that is 4% more downforce, whereas in the 80s that would have been about 2.5% more. So although I would argue the total downforce is less, I do agree that the difference is more, and it makes more difference to lap times now than it did then.

What amazes me is that do far this year, most cars would have qualified even if we had a 107% rule. Try that at the average BRCA National in any class - more like 120% between top and bottom. Having said which, 7% over a 70-lap race like Hungary is almost five laps, so it's still a huge gap!!

[Nick Goodall]

HE wasn't great, he was successful. Like all successful drivers he put in a few awesome performances. However...

He started getting good once the great drivers had gone - Prost, Senna, Mansell, Piquet et al - and there was no one even close to his ability or his team's budget until Alonso came along. Faced with one really good driver, the WCs dried up. All the above-mentioned were teamed with each other at some time, and they won despite that. I just don't think that you can ever call him great, whatever the numbers say.



He qualified 7th in his first race for Jordan, in a car far less superior - and that was with all these top drivers you mention? He was 3rd in his 2nd season of F1 behind the two Williams cars that had all the clever active suspension/downforce and paddle shifts etc.

He was 4th in his 3rd season and then started to dominate the next couple of years so i don't think he was only successful only once the good drivers had gone? That's basically saying that Hill, Villeneuve, Hakinen, Coulthard, Montoya, Berger, Alesi, Frentzen, Irvine, Barrichello, Fisichella etc were all just average Joe's then? Not comparable to Mansell, Piquet, Prost & Senna?

They were just a different generation, not really fair to say Michael didn't match up to them as he was a young gun in the early days of his career and those guys were all coming to the end - The drivers in his generation were all proved to be slower then him in my opinion.

I also think he would have been close to Senna in the 1994 season, it was shaping up to be a good battle between them and I would have loved to see them wheel to wheel as neither would have given in :cry:

[nicefrog]

No one that ever saw Shumacher race in his early day could possibly argue that he wasn't one of the best if not the best driver ever. I saw those years and that's why I will always show him the respect he deserves :), I think everyone should do the same. Even a few years ago who were the only two drivers in the field during a pace car on a wet track that were game enough to have the traction control off and be snaking the car all over the track twice as wide as anyone else? thats right :) only Schumacher and Alonso were, simple little moments like those you see whos the best out there at the time.

I was a big Senna fan but it was blinding obvious to me right from the first few races Schumacher was in that he was the next great driver, he was just that much better then everyone else in the race other than Senna who I consider was his equal

[daz]

Im i wrong here, but on top gear it was proved that Schumacher was the stig:woot:. And didnt Barrachello beat the stigs time, and wasnt the stig a bit pissed. Just putting 2+2 together here guys:lol:

[Chrislong]

They did play it up to be Schumacher, but really it isn't. Its Ben Collins, google that name.

[daz]

They did play it up to be Schumacher, but really it isn't. Its Ben Collins, google that name.
Is that Phil Collins, bro?

[DaveG28]

Actually, there's 5 or 6 different stigs...;)

[SlowOne]

He qualified 7th in his first race for Jordan, in a car far less superior - and that was with all these top drivers you mention? He was 3rd in his 2nd season of F1 behind the two Williams cars that had all the clever active suspension/downforce and paddle shifts etc.

He was 4th in his 3rd season and then started to dominate the next couple of years so i don't think he was only successful only once the good drivers had gone? That's basically saying that Hill, Villeneuve, Hakinen, Coulthard, Montoya, Berger, Alesi, Frentzen, Irvine, Barrichello, Fisichella etc were all just average Joe's then? Not comparable to Mansell, Piquet, Prost & Senna?Yup. That motley collection have amassed the precise sum of four WC titles between them, whereas the next four managed to garner eleven drivers titles whilst competing against each other. 'Nuff said...

They were just a different generation, not really fair to say Michael didn't match up to them as he was a young gun in the early days of his career and those guys were all coming to the end - The drivers in his generation were all proved to be slower then him in my opinion.

I also think he would have been close to Senna in the 1994 season, it was shaping up to be a good battle between them and I would have loved to see them wheel to wheel as neither would have given in :cry:So would I, but we didn't. I agree you can't compare generations - Schui is proving that right now by coming back into a very different situation with regards to Rules, downforce and tyres, and not being able to get the best from them. I always reckoned that Clark in a fully active Williams might have the same issue.

As your first paragraph shows, he was successful. However, he was unarguably racing at a time where there was no one, and no team with the money to make a car, to touch him. Once there was a car and driver to do it (Alonso and Renault) he didn't win a WC again.

If we're talking really, really good drivers, then Alonso deserves a mention. He just didn't put a wheel wrong last weekend in holding off a faster car. Whereas, let's remember, the reason Barrichello managed to get in the slipstream is that this (allegedly) great driver managed to screw up turn 13 and fail to get on the throttle properly. 'Nuff said...

[Nick Goodall]

Yup. That motley collection have amassed the precise sum of four WC titles between them, whereas the next four managed to garner eleven drivers titles whilst competing against each other. 'Nuff said......

Yeah but that's because Michael was there winning the other 7 titles so how could they have managed more if they weren't simply as gifted as him? I don't believe any non-Great driver could win 7 titles in any top sport - I'm not saying i think he's the best, i just find it hard to understand how people can't see him as a great driver? Fair enough he's struggling now, but so is everyone outside of the Ferrari's, Red Bulls & Mclarens - If Micahel was at Mclaren and shadowing Lewis the same way Button is, people would be slating him saying Lewis is proving how past it Michael is etc, but because it's Button people just say they have different styles :lol:

[RudeTony]

Schumacher is NOT hungry anymore lets say like Lewis is and I actually think the same for Button but not as much.
You got to want it in any sportand if you want it and want it bad enough then and only then it might just happen.
He wanted it then, now with so so many millions - no way!!

Even 'finger' Vettel is hungry the ugly git

[bodgit]

Only one thing would convince me now as to who is the better driver. Stick them all in GP2 for a race while the break is on. Same engines, chassis, tyres no advantage just a race of pure skill winner is the best driver full stop.
Anyone know Bernies number to put it to him, GP2 was his idea initially was,nt it?
A race of that type could be huge for the sport.

[Nick Goodall]

Only one thing would convince me now as to who is the better driver. Stick them all in GP2 for a race while the break is on. Same engines, chassis, tyres no advantage just a race of pure skill winner is the best driver full stop.
Anyone know Bernies number to put it to him, GP2 was his idea initially was,nt it?
A race of that type could be huge for the sport.

That would be amazing!!!

In fact, thinking about it Schumacher's speed in a Kart gives some clue of his natural talent, only the top drivers are quick in Karts and he's still competitve when he jumps in one.

[PTRU]

7 WC with the same design team

Rory
Ross
Willam

now only Ross is with him.
uuummmm?????

[SlowOne]

Yeah but that's because Michael was there winning the other 7 titles so how could they have managed more if they weren't simply as gifted as him? I don't believe any non-Great driver could win 7 titles in any top sport - I'm not saying i think he's the best, i just find it hard to understand how people can't see him as a great driver? Fair enough he's struggling now, but so is everyone outside of the Ferrari's, Red Bulls & Mclarens - If Micahel was at Mclaren and shadowing Lewis the same way Button is, people would be slating him saying Lewis is proving how past it Michael is etc, but because it's Button people just say they have different styles :lol:Good point - what is the definition of greatness?

As given to me - it's not what you've done, but what you've left behind. Fangio, Clark, Moss raised the game. They left behind techniques behind the wheel that were copied. Stewart raised the game by leaving behind a business approach to ones F1 career, and the focus on safety. Prost left behind the notion of winning a race at the slowest possible speed. Senna left behind levels of car control that allowed him to beat others, cadence acceleration, and levels of fitness that others had to copy. Schumacher has left behind a bunch of numbers to be beaten - but so did every one of the others mentioned above.

If you ask for greatness in any other walk of life, you will always find people who left behind something that changed the game, the perception of their professional discipline, or the way in which things were done for ever after. Newton, Einstein, Shankley, Wenger, Lord Hanson, Arkwright, Brunell, the list goes on. There were thousands of scientists, managers, industrialists, engineers who successfully made better 'numbers' than those mentioned, but none changed the game and left a legacy like those guys.

On which basis, for me, Schumacher is not great, just successful.

[matdodd]

very well put :thumbsup:

[nicefrog]

Only one thing would convince me now as to who is the better driver. Stick them all in GP2 for a race while the break is on. Same engines, chassis, tyres no advantage just a race of pure skill winner is the best driver full stop.
Anyone know Bernies number to put it to him, GP2 was his idea initially was,nt it?
A race of that type could be huge for the sport.

Have you seen the race of champions? that they hold each year, drivers from all different motorsports completing is various cars so it's all fair and square, Team Germany which is Michael Schumacher and Sebastian Vettel have won the last 3 years in a row, last year Schumacher was beaten in the final by Mattias Ekström. He's been highly successful over the years in that competition. Like someone else said, he's still one of the best kart drivers around too. No one on this forum would be able to make the cut in F1 even driving redbull anyway so we need some more respect for such talented people :)

[peetbee]

very well put :thumbsup:
+1 :thumbsup:

[SHY]

very well put :thumbsup:

Indeed! :thumbsup:

[Nick Goodall]

Good point - what is the definition of greatness?

As given to me - it's not what you've done, but what you've left behind. Fangio, Clark, Moss raised the game. They left behind techniques behind the wheel that were copied. Stewart raised the game by leaving behind a business approach to ones F1 career, and the focus on safety. Prost left behind the notion of winning a race at the slowest possible speed. Senna left behind levels of car control that allowed him to beat others, cadence acceleration, and levels of fitness that others had to copy. Schumacher has left behind a bunch of numbers to be beaten - but so did every one of the others mentioned above.



I know what you're saying, but i think the modern Era of F1 those type of things will never be left for others to follow or copy - It's become such a technical precise art that there's only 10ths between the top guys, and that's all you need to make a difference that or getting the perfect strategy where others fail... Michael has been a master of this, and not forgetting racing in Wet conditions....

I think Michael will be the only benchmark in the next few years for people to try and compare to - so what if that is just a bunch of numbers, it's unlikely for me that you'll ever get anything else now in this era.... and what an impressive set of numbers it is! (One i don't think will be beaten)

The cars are too fast, and have too much grip to see amazing control where people are power-sliding and gaining time, or trying amazing techniques as the cars can only really be driven one way, and it's who can drag the last few 10ths out of it...... F1 has evolved soooo much since the days of Clark, Moss, Hill, Stewart and Co, that it's really impossible to compare to that now - the sport (or motor racing in general) just isn't like that any more - there's not much of a safety risk for one thing :D

[SlowOne]

Get your point, but...

You're looking back over the last five years or so from your post. Those guys go back the last 60 years!! For those 60 years I've picked four or five things - or one every 10 years or so. Just because it hasn't happened for the last five or ten years, doesn't mean it is not going to happen again.

As for it all being so close - in qualifying may be. In the race we have just witnessed a couple of races where the winner lapped everyone up to the top ten which, even if you discount the bottom six, is a BIG gap. Where the points count, the gap is a big today as it ever has been over the last 60 years - and there are no points for qualifying!!

The advantage of the definition I was given of greatness is that it does not rely on comparison, it relies on absolutes. It's a good game, and it's great that we all differ, and have the wit and imagination to reason our corner.

Oh, and at the risk of getting the Schui guys back in, there is one safety risk we can improve - get Schumacher off the track!! :D :D

(Puts on tin hat and runs away.... :woot:)

[Nick Goodall]

Get your point, but...

You're looking back over the last five years or so from your post. Those guys go back the last 60 years!! For those 60 years I've picked four or five things - or one every 10 years or so. Just because it hasn't happened for the last five or ten years, doesn't mean it is not going to happen again.

As for it all being so close - in qualifying may be. In the race we have just witnessed a couple of races where the winner lapped everyone up to the top ten which, even if you discount the bottom six, is a BIG gap. Where the points count, the gap is a big today as it ever has been over the last 60 years - and there are no points for qualifying!!

The advantage of the definition I was given of greatness is that it does not rely on comparison, it relies on absolutes. It's a good game, and it's great that we all differ, and have the wit and imagination to reason our corner.

Oh, and at the risk of getting the Schui guys back in, there is one safety risk we can improve - get Schumacher off the track!! :D :D

(Puts on tin hat and runs away.... :woot:)

Haha good point, i'd also like to see the Virgin & HRT cars banned from a safety point of view too :lol:

I wouldn't say i'm looking back 5 years, more like 15-20 even, since the high downforce wings, and all the safety features came in - Mainly from 1994 i suppose but the cars since then have just become so good, it's rare to even see one get out of shape like the old days..... Even since they took away T/C the cars are still generating enough grip to pretty much nail the right pedal out of corners.

I think wet conditions are probably the only time we can really see a driver make up for a poor car, the likes of Suttil, Hamilton & Vettel have all been good at that over the past 3-4 years, and Schumacher was always pretty incredible to watch in the rain, especially when he lapped everyone up to 3rd in Spain :thumbsup:

[SlowOne]

(Puts on tin hat and runs away.... :woot:)Ventured back again, but still have tin hat on...

Have you seen this?

"Seven-time world champion Michael Schumacher has blamed his poor form in his Formula 1 comeback season on his Mercedes car. He said: "The car is not at all in harmony with the tyres, or also with us as the drivers." "
Source - http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=382311

Whine, moan, carp... Yeah, and that bad car has managed 38 points for you and 94 for your team mate. I don't remember Keke Rosburg complaining about his car when, at McLaren, he had to drive a car built for (understeerer) Prost instead of (oversteerer) Rosburg, or Lauda moaning about the McLaren he came back to drive to his third title, or... Unprofessional...

Great my a**e. :lol:

[telboy]

I like how he says "..'us' as the drivers"!

I don't see Rosberg complaining that the car doesn't suit him or the tyres.

[bodgit]

I read somewhere that this years car was built around Jenson,s preferances. So basically Schumacher is saying he cant drive Jensons car and thats why he is not winning.
Back in the days when teams were allowed a spare car they could jump into halfway through a race if needed, can anyone remember if the ferrari spare was always set up for Schui. I seem to recall it was set up for alternative drivers each race which if so why if he used to jump into another drivers set up in the past can he not do it now. He has had time enough to dial it into his own style.

[Nick Goodall]

I like how he says "..'us' as the drivers"!

I don't see Rosberg complaining that the car doesn't suit him or the tyres.

I don't know actually, i bet if you asked Rosberg after most races he'd agree the car really isn't good enough - It's certainly not the championship contending car that Brawn had last year, and i think that's what he thought he'd be getting to drive this year! He's not actually made much of a step forward from Williams, when he must have thought he'd have a car good enough to challenge for wins this year?

I know Michaels got way less points, but if you look at some of the failures he's had, and penalties such as Monaco it's not all entirely down to him.

[SHY]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85983

Well, Schumi's for sure sticking his neck out!

I'd rather keep my mouth shut and try to actually show some good results first...

Oh yeah, with their 2011 car and Pirelli tyres he's gonna beat Rosberg in every race + be on the podium... dream on old dog! :lol::lol::lol: