New National F Rating? [Archive]

millzy

31-08-2007, 12:03 PM

i know what your saying lee that it should be a elite club but then you look at how many good driver there are in the top 30 , the f2 finals would be so hard for us regional f2s trying to battle 20 very good driver show sould be f1s.

maybe somthing like if you make the top 10 for 5 years runnig you become F zero

mole2k

31-08-2007, 12:06 PM

Personally I would think the f1 should be the absolute cream of the crop, people who have the ability to get into the A on a semi-regular basis. I would of put f1 at the top 20 drivers then f2 at around the 50-60 mark.

I dont race in the system but thats just my opinion from an outside perspective. I guess you will always get the top guys thinking its too easy to get f1 status and the bottom guys thinking its too hard to move up the rankings.

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 12:09 PM

yeh but then look how good the F2's would be, it would be another great event. then there would be more F3's and make the F3's a better event!!!!

its all sense people! all sense. F1 should be top draw! top notch! something thats really hard to acheive and feels great once you do. knowing you didnt just make it as a percentage, but you racedto that position.

matdodd

31-08-2007, 12:12 PM

Put a rule change forward then Pidge!

Chris Doughty

31-08-2007, 12:13 PM

how many people made at least 1 A final this year?

maybe F1 should be attained if you make an A final during the year?

millzy

31-08-2007, 12:14 PM

bigred5765

31-08-2007, 12:15 PM

the easy-est thing to do would be to split it up in to 5 equal parts IE 30 f1 30 f2 etc etc then all are equal,no need to make yourself elitist,

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 12:17 PM

Put a rule change forward then Pidge!

already have

millzy

31-08-2007, 12:17 PM

veto :)

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 12:18 PM

would us normal people be able to keep up with the team drivers that have the cells motors and tyre support to make sure they make the top 10 ? would there be any point is us trying to get and F1?

i think it would come down to the same 8 making f1 and the other 2 places being a fight between the rest of the good f1s

Since when did we need cells and faster batts in off road!!!

not a valid reason at all. they are over powered now.

tyres....we all have to buy em.

millzy

31-08-2007, 12:22 PM

we dont need to be faster my point is there is a gap between what you top lads have and what us regional lads have.

if there was a 10 place cut off and there are 40+ of you fighting for it, you telling me that your going to run any old shit in your car and hope for the best, no your gonig to want the best for AE and novak to make sure your up there.

the tyre line is bollox and you know it( maybe not for you but others)

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 12:26 PM

wouldnt u want tht anyway...u dnt need new stuff...just well prepared stuff...

i had to come through the ranks, as did everyone...

Wraggy

31-08-2007, 12:26 PM

Millzy , i agree with Lee on the Motors and Batts ....
what we use now is as good as what the team run ..
15 yeasrs ago it was a different story , but in todays market i personally feel we get as good as they do...

bigred5765

31-08-2007, 12:36 PM

true but, if Ur just outside that top ten elitist group for 2-3 years would it really be worth keep trying, i think some people would bow out, and make it less interesting, theres people that made it last year that aren't there this year so at the bottom of the pile, a nice little niece for us mere mortals to look forward to,after all most people aims at national is to get to f1 if its out of our reach IE u have to be top ten why even bother,

Chris Doughty

31-08-2007, 12:44 PM

think of it on the other side...

if you well inside F1 each year but not managing to get A finals then whats the point in bothering?

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 12:48 PM

so why dont we just give everyone that does a national a F1...........

if u want it to be easy may as well go the whole way...

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 12:50 PM

and surely!!! you race for fun...not just to get F1 but each days racing is a new challenge.....

so you get F2 and not F1...does that mean the season is not good anymore...

it will be harder to get F2...so maybe concerntrate on that!

Chris Doughty

31-08-2007, 12:54 PM

I am with Lee on this.

its just the numbers that will change, F2 will become the same 'hardness' to acheive as F1 is right now.

its just those people that that are right in the middle of F1 are in limbo, now they get the chance to go for 'new' F1

and also agree with Lee, everyone should go racing to have fun,

millzy

31-08-2007, 12:57 PM

not jumping ship but i took time to think about what lee said and came to the conclusion thats chris said, under lees propsed rule change on licence grades a few of us might never make f1`, but it would make the f2 we have worth so much more and not just a didnt make it grade.

Body Paint

31-08-2007, 01:04 PM

I have to disagree with you there Chris, if you randomly make an A by being in a low heat and catching the correct whether you could be an F1 and struggle to make the B at every other meeting.how many people made at least 1 A final this year?

maybe F1 should be attained if you make an A final during the year?

I do think the bar is set too low though, for example, I made 3 C finals and 1 B final in 2wd and came 23rd and in 4wd I had 4 B finals and came 19th

I think I have done just enough to earn an F1 License this year so maybe the cut off should be 25 or even 20? I think that you should really have to have a good season to earn an F1.

As Pidge says, it would also make gaining an F2 license more of an acheivement and raise the level of the F2 grade.

Maybe the trophies given at the last National to the top 25 should be presented to commemerate the F1 license grade?

Chris Doughty

31-08-2007, 01:05 PM

that is the ONLY problem that I see with the rule is that peoples perceptions that they used to be an F1 and they are now an F2. the fact is they are just as good, its just the name of the classification has changed.

Chris Doughty

31-08-2007, 01:06 PM

Craig - I think I agree too, I just thought I would put out that idea for people to debate...

how about a 'Star' if you make an A??

F1* or F3*

or if your Mark Stanly - F5* :o

Body Paint

31-08-2007, 01:08 PM

PIDGE: Out of interest what is your proposal for the AGM?

matdodd

31-08-2007, 01:11 PM

So What have you put forward then Lee?
Id say something like top 20 F1 21-50 F2!

Body Paint

31-08-2007, 01:12 PM

See your point there Chris..

Maybe scrap the F grades all together and call it something else? Or is that a bit too radical.

What about an A to Z grade based on your average final thoughout the national season?

IE. I scored 4 B finals therefore I would have a B grade license

matdodd

31-08-2007, 01:13 PM

or if your Mark Stanly - F5* :o

What a Legend!

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 01:15 PM

i put in a rule. which i though was quite funky...but may not be to everyones liking.

i think top 15 should be F1. then the top 5 at F2's gets an F1 grade.
also top 5 at F3's gets F2.

this will make 20 F1's and also give the end of season finals a real meaning. rather than just a one off meeting.

making them alot more popular and giving people the chance to prove themselves of the national scene.

what you all think?

lee

Chris Doughty

31-08-2007, 01:19 PM

I am supporting Lee's rule.

but the AGM is open to adjustment of proposed rules from what I understand, so I think its open for discussion, but I like Lee's idea.

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 01:22 PM

cheers man.

yeh please...looking for everyones views on it...

obviously it cant come into place this year. but would be for next year.

Body Paint

31-08-2007, 01:23 PM

I do like the idea of that, but it does seem like you could get your F1 grade by just going to one meeting and having an abnormally good day.

What if the meeting were heald at a "Local Hero" style of track... you could end up with the people who have worked really hard to come 15th to 20th in the Nationals locked out of the F1 contention.

Definately plus's and minus's to that idea.:wtf:

GRIFF55

31-08-2007, 01:25 PM

That sounds good, I also like the idea of the *

_sleigh_

31-08-2007, 01:32 PM

this will make 20 F1's and also give the end of season finals a real meaning. rather than just a one off meeting.

You could concievably get more than 20 F1's. If the top 15 in 2WD has different drivers than in 4WD, and the top 5 in each class at the F2's is different.

That's not to bash the idea, coz I thinks it a good one. :)

I think the one adjustment that might get discussed at the AGM is to change your numbers to include a percentages. So it's might say, F1's to the top 15 people doing 4 of more events, and if the number of people completing 4 or more falls below a set figure then the "15" becomes a percentage, say 20%.

It just means the rule wouldn't need changing if the National became less attended anytime in the future.

Yardeeee

31-08-2007, 01:34 PM

It's a good rule Pidge, but personally I don't agree with the part about the top five finishers at the EOS finals gaining a new license. I think an F1 should be achieved through hard work throughout the 6 round national series... someone who does not do any nats but then comes along to the BRC finals for example, happens to come say 3rd, they gain an F1 without even attending a national through the year? Doesn't seem fair to me... not when the guy who has come 16th in the nat series misses out after some really good results through the national season... and if he is an F1 previously, doesn't get to bump up through the BRC ch'ship... or is F2, can go, but has a shocking day. That part of the rule needs a rethink I think... a license grade should not be achieved off your performance at a one-off event.

Plus surely being crowned "British Regional Champion" or "F3/4/5 National Champion" means enough for people to have an incentive at EOS finals and gives meaning to the event anyway.

Just my view... good attempt at a proposal though, just needs a tweak I believe.

Tom Y.

_sleigh_

31-08-2007, 01:39 PM

That's a good point raised by Yardy (nice avatar by the way ;) )

I think the proposal is on the right track though. Anyone else have any thoughts on refinements??

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 01:50 PM

right ok...so maybe have to scrap that idea. i just thought this would lift the amount of peopel doing end of seasons.....

mayeb the F3 one could stand???

even im gettting confused

millzy

31-08-2007, 01:55 PM

what about the top 3 at the EOS get an F 1.5 just means your ranked as a possible F1 grade the following year, and the same for the top 3 at the F3,4,5s as f.2.5 f3.5 and f 4.5

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 02:01 PM

way to complex

matdodd

31-08-2007, 02:02 PM

I thought the same thing as Yardy.
But why not do it like it is now with a percentage say the top 15% get F1 then the next 20% get F2? :confused:

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 02:03 PM

you could do percentages.................

better having a round number of F1's like 15-20. then percentages the rest of the way dwn....

Southwell

31-08-2007, 02:04 PM

Wasn't that what used to happen Lee?

millzy

31-08-2007, 02:04 PM

way to complex

why just means there f2s with f.15 next to her name so f2s can see how they rank against next years winners dosnt change the f1 % or make the f1s just gives them somthing for makeing the top3 like YOU said

Chris Doughty

31-08-2007, 02:06 PM

I prefer the idea of fixed numbers.

it reduces the uncertanty. you could be in or out of F1 status just by the fact if people don't turn up to the last race and less people have 4-to-count.

with it being a smaller number, aiming for top 15 in the champ you can gauge how well you are doing for this?

(I know the same thing kind of happens all ready but) imagine being 15th going to the last round, finishing 15th and as the percentages work out only 'top 12%' works out to only 14th.... gutted :wtf:

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 02:08 PM

round number for F1...........percentage to F2

Lee Martin

31-08-2007, 02:09 PM

why just means there f2s with f.15 next to her name so f2s can see how they rank against next years winners dosnt change the f1 % or make the f1s just gives them somthing for makeing the top3 like YOU said

Back down welshy!!!!!!

hahahah

im changing mind on end of season things due to toms idea,

matdodd

31-08-2007, 02:18 PM

Ye but no more gutted than say Gaz this year when he missed out by one place!
Theres always going to be one person who just looses out :(

super__dan

31-08-2007, 02:19 PM

I can see the point here but think %'s are the way to go rather than fixed numbers. I also think if you are to put a rule in like this you need to think about the whole license grade and the effects on other people through F2 and unless you want to end up with a HUGE amount of F2's from nationals it effects what people will become F3's as well.

For me this year I really wanted to get top 25 (and a trophy) for some reason in my mind that seems a good number, I don't feel it needs to be as eliteist as you guys when the other license grades will be split between so many drivers.

matdodd

31-08-2007, 02:27 PM

I know what your sayin Dan I always look to try & make the top 25 maybe thats the way to go as we already do pots for the top 25!

Kopite

31-08-2007, 02:28 PM

group hug tomorrow lads!!! :D

my vote goes to top 10 or maybe 15 for F1, so when you see an F1 at a club meeting or even a regional, you think 'jesus, he must be good'.

Top 40ish isn't exclusive enough in my opinion.

matdodd

31-08-2007, 02:33 PM

[quote=Kopite;59052]group hug tomorrow lads!!! :D

Not if you drive like last weekend :D

MATTY

31-08-2007, 02:40 PM

Leave as is but top 10 from 2wd & 4wd nat become F1+

Swiss

31-08-2007, 02:51 PM

My two penny's worth....

Surely if you make all the groups too elite'est, then there is a fear of driving people out of the hobby?

I think there is no harm at the moment in rewarding the best drivers in the UK, but currently there is no real structure to also award the best club, regional drivers.. Apart from a title.... Bring back Chiltern Cup Challenge I say :)

Nick Goodall

31-08-2007, 02:59 PM

I agree that it's a good idea to have less F1's (maybe 20 or so) but overall what difference does it REALLY make?

I know it makes you personally feel a bit better about yourself to be able to say you're in the top 20 or top 10 in the UK, but to me it doesn't really affect anything racing wise??

I think the main reason behind any rule changes to formula's etc needs to concentrate on the fact that people aren't really attending regionals at the moment (i know some regions are well attended but on the hole they're down in numbers).

It's great having an over-subscribed national series, but as PaulW once told me we're almost becoming "too good" at the hobby and it's getting harder for new people to get into the sport at grass roots level hence (and no dis-respect to anyone intended) you get such a vast difference in ability at UK Nationals.

Heat 1 to me should be ideally minimum F4's if not F3's so that overall the standard at a National would be higher.

I know the likes of Mr Stanley etc wouldn't have been able to race this year, but like i've done in 2007 it wouldn't really hurt to just do a year of racing at regionals to get your F status up to the required level to "proove" you're good enough to compete at what should be the highest level?

I think overall this is the downfall of 1/10th off road as people only seem to really want to race at Nats regardless of if they're (imo) actually good enough??

Hope that makes sense, i'm just thinking as i type really :D

1/8th and other classes seem to get really good following at all types of events, not only nationals so we need to look at why this isn't happening in 1/10 off road?

Teddy truman

31-08-2007, 04:53 PM

i like the idea of 20 or 25 F1's, i think what we have is to many.

markwilliamson2001

31-08-2007, 05:48 PM

I agree with Nick on this one, I think that more people ought to do regionals before they move on to Nationals, to prove they are good enough. I believe the organisation at regional level at some tracks is not quite up to the superb organisation at BRCA Nats, which can put some people off.

Having said that, almost all mid-west clubs are excellent, but that cant be said of some clubs I have been to. I also like the idea of limiting the top 20-25 of drivers at Nat's to be F1, and that a percentage of remaining drivers are F2, then F3 etc etc. Personally, I wouldnt mind being an F3 rather than F2, if it meant that F2 was more elite, but the key thing is to get more people into the hobby at regional level.

M.

Slimboyfat

01-09-2007, 09:09 AM

my opinion is top 25 F1's, then a larger percentage of F2's and F3's

F1 is getting increasing easy to get.

For example i managed to get a 'D' final score to count towards my F1 in 2006 with 'C' finals making up the rest. Shouldn't be right that those kind of scores make you amongst the F1 drivers.

It needs to be changed but not the extent that it becomes impossible to achieve so i think 25 is a better figure.

WHITTLER555

03-09-2007, 08:11 PM

As an addition to this regarding lack of numbers at Regional events, I am sure PW has attendance figures for all the regions. I know that some regions only get maybe 12 people turning up for their regional events which makes a mockery of the F grades.

If you reduced the number of regions putting regionals on, lets say only 3 regions in the country, North, Midlands and South, you would get well attended race weekends which may effectively become National B events and call our Nationals, National A events.

This is what happens in British Club Rallying, you have National A events where drivers who are good enough, compete and National B events where good clubmen compete.

Also if you reduced the numbers of Regions, you would hope that the best run clubs would get to run the Regionals, like Southport, York and Bury for example in the North.

This may lead to drivers who qualify as F1, 2 and 3 to run National A and F3, 4 and 5 to run National B.

On the downside it would mean more travel for a lot of people but if the regionals were attracting 70 - 80 - 100 people they may see it as a worthwhile test of their skill before they move on to National A events.

Just an idea, needs more work, probably bollox:D

Col

03-09-2007, 09:53 PM

If you reduced the number of regions putting regionals on, lets say only 3 regions in the country, North, Midlands and South, you would get well attended race weekends which may effectively become National B events and call our Nationals, National A events.

Also if you reduced the numbers of Regions, you would hope that the best run clubs would get to run the Regionals, like Southport, York and Bury for example in the North.

Just an idea, needs more work, probably bollox:D

Sounds like a great idea to me. With the N/W having a low turnout and a few N/W drivers racing N/E, (and vice versa?) why not just merge the regions? N/E gains a superb venue in Southport and N/W gains a mutlitude of different tracks for variety.
Obviously there will be more than a few that don't like this idea, but if we're gonna travel to Bury from Teeside or Durham then it's not much further.
Do and other regions run such large distances, or is it just N/E?

mole2k

03-09-2007, 10:29 PM

I just wish there was the interest in N.Ireland to run the regionals here :(

racingdwarf

03-09-2007, 11:47 PM

This is a never ending topic.When I left 1/10th 14years ago there was very strong debate about what ability should get to the nationals.I think it will always be a hot potato!!

having raced 1/8th for the last 10years I have now returned to 10th I have nearly compleated this seasons regionals in the EOE due to the amount of people taking part in these meeting and the number of people getting there F grades at the nats it looks like I will get my F2 this year....Great....but were now??I think the way the F grade is scored by regional percentages needs to be looked at as it depends on the ability and the number of the drivers in each region ( I think thats how it works:o ).

I think if there were far less regions and futher to travel it would only put club racers off, In my region east anglia we are a little out on a limb.

I think that it is important to remember you need to pay more attention to the entry level of the hobby like regionals,interclubs etc and maybe the good old british GP (those were the days:rolleyes: ) This way if you want to make the nationals more elite there will be other big meetings out there.

Errr.... anyway hope that all makes sense:wtf:

Rob

05-09-2007, 07:55 AM

On a slightly different note, can you get an F3, F4, F5 grade from nationals or can they only come from regionals? As I did 4 nationals but only managed to get 3 regionals in.

Chris Doughty

05-09-2007, 07:58 AM

only F1 and F2 can be got at nationals, 2,3,4,5 is through regionals

Rob

05-09-2007, 09:03 AM

So as I only did 3 regionals I don't get a grade for next year? damn.

Chris Doughty

05-09-2007, 09:08 AM

if your score from your 3 is still good enough to get you high enough for your grade then you will get that.

you don't HAVE to do all 4, but it does help you get more points that way.

also, I believe you only drop by 1 grade each year.

for example, if I didn't race for 2 years and I finish as an F1. when I come back I would be F3