Brushless - the definitive guide

[Hog]

Right - I'm confused.

I'm hoping to make the switch next year to brushless, but I'm looking to probably mix and match ESC and motors. So I don't go making expensive mistakes, can someone try and write an "idiots guide" so far as sensored / sensorless / bonded / sintered / etc, 'cos I just don't understand, especially the sensored / sensorless bit. :eh?:

I'm going to need to run both modified and stock, and over the winter months I'm hoping to go LiPo as well.

Please don't turn this into a "get this one mate, it's the dogs, and better than that one" type thread - I'd like to make my own judgement, but I'd like to make the decision armed with as much info as possible about what ESC's are compatable with what motors.

Thanks in advance.

[chrispattinson]

Ok lets keep this from the point of view of the driver (not technical), factual and concise:

Sensored v sensorless - as I understand it, sensorless is less complex and cheaper(?), but with sensored you get improved throttle control (smoother).

Sintered v bonded. Sintered provides more drag braking(in neutral position), cooler running motor / esc, is less prone to magnet fade with excessive heat.

Fact, not opinion: Novak GTB speedo and Novak motors used for 3 years in 3 cars, with one GTB failure in May 2007, fixed by Novak cheaply (it was outside warranty) and quickly.

I am not sponsored by anyone.

[DCM]

Sensorless gives more raw power and uses feedback from the motor windings to give feedback but can have a small cogging issue on initial take-off, sensored will work better at low RPM but is suppose to produce a little less power.

I should have my R1 next week, with motor, it will run both sensorless and sensored motors, it can be hooked up to a PC for firmware updates, plus up and download setups, is lipo enabled and very very small.

someone poke me on tuesday when my parcel arrives, if it is what I think it is, then I will take some pics.

[super__dan]

I believe the only brushless in the 2wd worlds A final this year were sensored and orange.

[Hog]

Okay - thanks for the tech info so far guys.

How about mixing Sensored ESC's with sensorless motor's , and vice versa? What happens then? Does it still work or does the "magic blue smoke" suddenly appear?

What causes cogging?

I'm just wary because my current setup of Robitronic i-Cube and V2 modifieds do go well, as do the stock motors I use, but it's blatantly obvious from those already running them at my club that 13.5T is the way to go for stock. Not only are they quicker, but the lack of maintenance is appealing too (same goes for modified).

I know I'm probably asking questions that are bread and butter to most of you guys, but I want to make the right choice first time.

[KyoshoK]

Novak GTB runs only sensor motors

why u want to mix and match for? run novak motor and novak esc, you'll be fine.

[dan_kitty]

With my experience so far, a sensorless speedo will only run a motor which is sensorless compatable. And a sensored speedo needs a sensored motor.

some third party motors are made to be used on both systems (the sensor port is there for a sensored speedo if needed)

I have a gtb and mamba system. I have put an orion vortex (sensor and sensorless) on the mamba to make it brca legal. And there is no need for me to change the gtb motor as its one of the best.

To be honest i dont notice much difference between the 2 systems both are very good, but im not a top racer.

whatever one you get, just make the motor it is compatible. or just use the one it comes with.

[DCM]

cogging is caused by the esc not knowing exactly what position the rotor is in, so pulses the three phases of the motor till it gets feedback it can use.

[ashleyb4]

Also rememeber the GTB is talled than the nosram system so may not fit in all cars due to its height. And its also meant to be true that the nosram speedo have more break than the GTB.

As for motors i highly recomned the oiron vortex i find it runs very cool compared to other make of motors. And is a little quicker.

A

[PaulRotheram]

How can you compare the orion to other makes like novak lrp mtroniks etc when you havn't even ran them Ashley? The guy is looking for advice, not what you think is the best with no solid knowledge of anything else besides what you run.

I was in the same boat as you Hog, before i switched.. I run/ran IP6 + Checkpoint motors and they go very well. I was wary as to wether the brushless would meet the high standards i've been used to for so long.

I'm definately glad i changed! The system I've been trying goes just as fast as my brushed equipment, runs cooler (19 flashes on the thermo check, 22 being the lowest, 5 being hottest) and i've now got time to change setups and chill out more.

You don't need to mix and match, the current breed of brushless equipment is easily good enough and will serve you well. I've only seen a few LRP motors malfunction my self, however i've heard of more occurences.

The novak ESC can fit in to most cars, and if any height clearence issues occur i'm aware you can move the fan to infront of the esc with little changes. Dingalong and supergreenwood can help you with this if you choose to go novak.

[DanW]

Why mix and match motor and speedo?

-cheaper to buy a combo package and set-up and warranty issues will be easier to resolve.

I've got 2 novak GTB systems and had no problems and performance is very good. The sintered rotor verions have more low end grunt and more brakes, for 4wd you definately want sintered. Also I think the sintered rotors are less prone to failure.

Really I see two chioces.... Novak or LRP/Nosram

Novak is very easy to setup but has very few programing options, with regard to the comment of them having less brakes its just not true, no problems to make the wheels lock in a 4wd!

LRP/Nosram is smaller so easier to install in your car and has more programming options and diagnostics. But they seem to be less available than Novak -although the supply issues might of been resolved by now.

[DCM]

man, and i thought my justified post at Mark was bad, guys.... they are all crap, you got to buy a Tekin..... roflol

I don't think there are any 'bad' RACE systems out there (and no, i don't consider the mtroniks one a race system). What i see as an advantage is not being tied to one manufacturers motors because you bought their speedo, you wouldn't do it with brushes, so why should you be expected to with brushless.

[josh_smaxx]

I have a gtb and mamba system. I have put an orion vortex (sensor and sensorless) on the mamba to make it brca legal. And there is no need for me to change the gtb motor as its one of the best.

To be honest i dont notice much difference between the 2 systems both are very good, but im not a top racer.


What turn vortex motor was this?i just bought a 6.5 to run on my mamba yet it wont set off, it needs a nudge or it jsut sits there juddering. Is this the motor or could it be settings on the speedo?

Back on topic. From the side lines iv seen that the novak systems are very quick, the motors are very reliable and the speedos seem to work very well, it appears the LRP/Nosram motors are slightly quicker than novaks but seem to suffer with reliability, as do the LRP/Nosram speedo's even if they are more advanced.

My biased opinion is the mamba speedo (extremely flexible and has a huge array of settings) with an orion vortex motor that works :D but thats just me, when my motor ran tonight i was seriouly impressed.

[mutie]

whoops

[mutie]

I tried a Speed Passion 13.5 (because it was cheap) with my GTB and i got cogging. The instructions that came with it said that you had to adjust the timing for the GTB, but I found it impossible to get it right. Nearly got there but the timing end stop would not let me quite reach the spot required for my GTB. I ran it with a little bit of cogging and ended up releasing its 'magic smoke'.

It may be the case that if you try to run a sensored ESC with a motor combination that gives you a bit of cogging, magic smoke is more likely. (due to the ESC giving the motor coils full power at the wrong timing)

At a guess the software on a sensorless speedo will ease the power in until it gets feedback so that it can then turn on the juice.

Hogster.... now you have the benefit of all this threads wisdom can we expect some brushless action soon???

[Hog]

Would be nice - but the CSA are seriously hampering my race budget.

Perhaps I could fund it by selling a kidney...........:eh?:

[Richard Lowe]

Sensorless gives more raw power
You've said this before Steve, please explain how the sensor wire changes how much power the motor produces :confused:

[Hog]

You've said this before Steve, please explain how the sensor wire changes how much power the motor produces :confused:

Exactly the reason I asked the initial question. Too many myths floating about without hard evidence to back them up.

Most of the guys where I race that have made the switch are running Novak sytems - GTB with a 13.5 motor for stock and generally a 5.5 for outside when it's warmer. These seem a good system and are not ridiculously priced either.

However I'm probably going to have to buy 2nd hand, which may mean mixing and matching my ESC and motors as I'll need both stock and mod, and I don't want to go and get an ESC that's going to prove restrictive when it comes to choosing motors. I know everyone has different opinions on what they feel is "the best" system out there. Hence me asking for a little background info so I can make an informed choice.

I only intend to buy once. I can't afford to make an expensive mistake.

[RLGfx]

my personal choice, as an unsponsored driver for electronics, is the Nosram speedo (or LRP, depending if you wand red or blue) and the Novak motors. All the Novaks I have are sintered, and so reliability is great, and they work well with the ESC and are very fast.

HTH

Robin

[Nick Goodall]

I have also gone from running an LRP IPC V7.1 with Checkpoint and V2 Motors to a brand new Novak GTB with 6.5 (Sintered)

The change was fantastic for me - i can now practise as much as i want without fear that my motor will die on it's backside towards the end of the day.

I don't know any of the technical info but with the system in and wired up extremely neatly by Trish i am over the moon with it and don't intend on even taking the motor out for a while yet except to clean it!

Will see how it goes this weekend at Lee's but the first time i ran it the motor stayed very cool (could hold with no problem at all) and gave silly amounts of punch and speed all throughout the day on each battery pack.

[Slimboyfat]

is there just one tpye of GTB speedo?

with the Novak motors do you have to buy sintered seperatly or do they come as such??

[Kopite]

Isn't there a 'spread spektrum' version of the GTB? sure i saw that advertised in a shop, but not sure exactly what it does (probably something to do with running on 2.4ghz at a guess :))

I have to say, i can't imagine ever going back to brushed now, imagine trying to skim motors at regionals!!! There'd be no time to play footy in between rounds :wtf:

[antnee]

just to tag on to this thread, has anyone tried those brca legal brushless mtroniks motors?

[ashleyb4]

Are they the pink ones if so there is someone at our club who had one and the motors stopped working so he sent it back along came a new one then he had a bearing collapse in it within about a month. But im not sure if that was the brca legal one.

A

[super__dan]

There is Stan, I've not got one though.

See the Novak site for tech info, however I've been running the non 'Spektrum' version with the KO Spektrum for over half the season and have no probs. So it ran fine with 40mhz and fine with 2.4ghz, don't be concerned (in my opinion) that by getting the normal version, you will be at a disadvantage if you change to 2.5ghz at a later date.

I strongly believe that the Novak motors are THE most reliable brushless motors out there. I personally have only ever seen 1 have anything wrong with it, but said person seemed to have a 'talent' for destroying blue motors ;)

[Richard Lowe]

It's 2 Novak's now :rolleyes:

[Northy]

Is that you Rich? Or the dirty vermin? :confused:

G

[David Church]

Watch out for the "Vermin" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hog(dave) I have a speedo I can sell JUST you cheap, or let you try, to see what will work for you!!!
Let me know eh???

DC

[Richard Lowe]

Is that you Rich? Or the dirty vermin? :confused:

G

Well it's not Vermin...

Although in my defence I'm pretty sure the magnet coming unglued from the rotor can be chalked up to bad luck, I think my B4 has some anti-brushless curse on it or something :confused:

Difference is though unlike the blue motors I'm back up and running with a replacement already :D

[super__dan]

No it is Rich, between you and Vermin have you done 10 blue motors yet?

[MattW]

I would happily recomend LRP Speedo and either GM/Speed Passion/Orion/Peak motor combo to anyone. The motors are all based on the same tear down.

I have also tried the LRP motors. They are ok, but i think you want to be running sintered really. LRP only do sintered in 3.5/4/4.5 none of which are ideal for Off rd.

I like that style of motor. There is a small reliability issue with sensors - but that is easily fixable by anyone with a small soldering iron and a steady hand. They do need a little more cleaning than LRP motors - but that's because they have vent holes, so they run cooler, it's a trade off. You also have a choice of rotors for tuning the power band. Although i'm not 100% sure how widely available these are. I knw Schumacher stock them, but not sure about anyone else.

[Lee]

Is there anywhere i can find out if an orion/peak motor is compatible with a GTB?

[ashleyb4]

The orion and peak motors are comaptable with all top brushless speedo's acording to orion website.

A

[Lee]

what is the problem with the sensor that matt was referring to before and what is the fix?

[MattW]

It doesn't effect everyone, and i haven't had it effect all of my motors. Basically, it isn't unusual for the pins for the sensor connector to become detached from the board. Sometimes this happens with heat - i had one motor that would run for a couple of minutes and then stop. Let it cool and it would be fine!! Traced to sensor and it was sorted.

There are a few ways around the problem. You can run a hot soldering iron over it from new - if you are comfortable doing it and have small enough iron. Or you can just run it and see what happens. There's every chance you won't get a problem. If it does go down - you can either repair is as above, or buy a new sensor module.

Note, only attempt to (re) solder to the board if you are very comfortable doing it. I work in this type of trade, so it doesn't bother me, but wouldn't want someone to try it and make it worse.

[josh_smaxx]

Orion motors are great with the GTB, very nice to drive.

[Alfonzo]

Can anyone explain why there were so few Brushless systems at the Worlds? (apologies if this covered elsewhere..)

I run BL and love it. Not because it's any faster, but just the ease of maintenance. It's one less thing to worry about. Hurrah :D

[super__dan]

Sponsorships ;)