Norwegian federation closes down all electric races and training

[kyosho-viking]

Norwegian federation NMF closed today down all organized practice and all races with all electric classes due to battery problems.

Last weekend 3 (!) batteries blew up when charging in a 1/10 track national.
Due to this problem and similar problems around europe they choose to close down all events imidiatly.

rumors say that from april 1.st 2008, EFRA will change their battery list and none of todays batteries will be allowed in 2008.

[stefke]

rumors say that from april 1.st 2008, EFRA will change their battery list and none of todays batteries will be allowed in 2008.

Dig out the good old NiCd's !!!! :D

Are they serious ?

I've only seen Lipo's blow up.

[bbq]

Not to suprised.
i remeber the pics from the World and the acadamy car that blew up!

[Northy]

An IB cell blew up at the last Worksop meeting.

G

[RogerM]

If there is a percieved safety problem they will have to do something or else the legal bods will be after them in one way or another!!

I've just bought (not even recieved yet) IB4200s and the thought of not being able to use them next year is certainly a financial blow but after hearing some of the tales I have and being issued with a fairly lengthy set of instructions for looking after them I must admit that I'm a little nervious about them.

Do we really need 4200s anyway?

I have been told by so many people that they regularly come off the track with 40% left in the cells meaning they have used roughly (very approximately) 2500mAh .... would that not mean that old styles of cell, like the 3300s would be more than capable and easier to live with to boot???????

[tc2k]

TBH, people are using 7.5s with the IB42's, all you need to do is drop to a 6.5 if need be. I run GP3300's and would run them all the time if they had kept on making them, too bad all the 33's around now have been sat in cupboards for years

[losixxx]

bring back ib3800's bullett proof :D

[Nick Goodall]

I'm still running 3300's at times as i only have a few 3800's which are awesome.

The main thing you notice with 3300's now is the severe lack of punch compared to 3800's - When you race on a track with some high grip or big jumps you need to clear, 3300's are a big pain in the back side so i don't think many people would like them now they're all used to 3800's an upwards.

[stefke]

The problems seem to concentrate on IB4200's.

I've been running GP3700's for two years now and always finish with at least 1000mA left so I saw no need to invest in bigger capacity cells. I did notice that the IB's have more punch when racing on high grip tracks.

[kyosho-viking]

Dig out the good old NiCd's !!!! :D

Are they serious ?

I've only seen Lipo's blow up.

They are serious for sure, my club were supposed to host a big national indoors race 24.th-25.th nov. but as it looks now, we can all forget about it.

the problem in Norway has all been with ib4200's, some brand new, and some from last year, so this has nothing to do with newer cells.
as far as i know, all of the latest happenings has been with LRP V-tech 4200 and some Orions.

pics
/http://forum.radiostyrt.no/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5083&d=1194344044 (http://www.oople.com/http://forum.radiostyrt.no/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5083&d=1194344044)
http://forum.radiostyrt.no/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5084&d=1194344055
http://forum.radiostyrt.no/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5085&d=1194344064

[Rob Fitzgerald]

I am sure plenty of things will happen on the FIRST of April next year :eh?:

[Lee]

Yeah the cling film trick on the toilet seat always gets me:D

[Elliott Hopkins]

GP should have kept making the 3700s.

[Rob Fitzgerald]

Did anyone spot the initials of the club in question ?

[burgie]

Did anyone spot the initials of the club in question ?

BOOM

How cool is that?!?

Looks like Lipos are the way forward afterall! :p

[DaveG28]

WHat is it about my stuff, I have good everything (except my actual driving!), yet I never come off the track with more than 700 or 800 left on my 4200's!!

[Crazy L]

Not being too familiar with newer cells myself as the newest I have are Sanyo RC2400s, but I see the problems lie with IBs, what about the East Power cells, are there any concerns about them since they are of a similar capacity?

If you think it's a bit of a schoolboy question, just say:rolleyes:

[kyosho-viking]

BOOM

How cool is that?!?

Looks like Lipos are the way forward afterall! :p

Sorry guys it's BOMBK :)

[kyosho-viking]

last update

they will be keeping it closed until january 2008, all el-classes

how stupid is this?? and why are we thw only country doing this?? What have we done wrong to deserve this?? :o


their argument is that none of the brands will guarantee that this will not happen to any of their cells, well who would?? Stupid drivers are still among us, that could rape their cells charging them. I sure as hell wouldnt give this kind of guaranty.


Im so pissed off right now:o

[Northy]

And what are you going to power your servo's in your nitro's with? :confused:

G

[kyosho-viking]

And what are you going to power your servo's in your nitro's with? :confused:

G


That's what we are asking, the only explosion of a battery causing injuries I know about, is a 1/8th that blew up in the pit. they are still alowed.

But they seem to ignore everything.

Why not forbid ib4200 cells, we could still be racing other cells.

[SlowOne]

Northy beat me to it!!

Kyosho-viking - please refer your Association to an accident we had here. A young driver was badly injured when a battery accident happened right in their face as they were looking at... a Nitro car!! The battery was for powering the Nitro electrics.

I hope that you are protesting to your Association. This is a ridiculous over-reaction. If the concern is safety, then all RC racing should be stopped, as all RC racing is using NiMH batteries. I hope you can get this decision reversed.

Anyone imagine what would happen if the BRCA tried to do this? :p:p:p springs to mind...!!

[josh_smaxx]

Anyone imagine what would happen if the BRCA tried to do this? :p:p:p springs to mind...!!

Id really rather not think about that, after the tread about national tracks......


back on topic: Cells can be dangerous if abused, and lets face it everyone racing electric cars are abusing the cells by charging them at least 8 times the manufactures rated current. but we have all seen a LiPo explosion on youtube, they seem alot more likely and much, much more violent, a cell exploded at TRCC a week or so ago, the guy was sitting right next to it and it caused no injury that i know of, and i was there.

[showtime]

the BRCA have already voted to outlaw direct soldering onto batterys at the EFRA AGM (see the other thread with a link to the item in question) so if there is a "real" percieved risk they will act upon it!
hopefully not in such a knee jerk way :rolleyes:

[Alfonzo]

last update

they will be keeping it closed until january 2008, all el-classes

how stupid is this?? and why are we thw only country doing this?? What have we done wrong to deserve this?? :o


their argument is that none of the brands will guarantee that this will not happen to any of their cells, well who would?? Stupid drivers are still among us, that could rape their cells charging them. I sure as hell wouldnt give this kind of guaranty.


Im so pissed off right now:o

You're have to drive over the border to Sweden to race! It's not that far, right?.. ;)

Seriously - sounds like a complete overreaction to me.

[Barry Williams]

Id really rather not think about that, after the tread about national tracks......


back on topic: Cells can be dangerous if abused, and lets face it everyone racing electric cars are abusing the cells by charging them at least 8 times the manufactures rated current. but we have all seen a LiPo explosion on youtube, they seem alot more likely and much, much more violent, a cell exploded at TRCC a week or so ago, the guy was sitting right next to it and it caused no injury that i know of, and i was there.

I spoke to the guy whose cells went bang shortly after it happened, he told me that it was two sets of cells that had touched each other & shorted causing the cells to go off, wasnt due to over-charging so accidents can happen with any cells if you are unfortunate.

[Chequered Flag Racing]

deleted by me

[josh_smaxx]

I spoke to the guy whose cells went bang shortly after it happened, he told me that it was two sets of cells that had touched each other & shorted causing the cells to go off, wasnt due to over-charging so accidents can happen with any cells if you are unfortunate.

Mmm, my friend did that a few weeks ago, it burnt through the wire though, gonna have to tell him to be more careful.

[stefke]

I've seen LiPo's explode in real life, and trust me : if safety is a major concern : LiPo's are NOT the way to go. It was an ugly sight.

The only serious injuries I've seen in RC was a broken leg for a marshall during an 1/8 IC track race and head injuries at a bigscale event (guy was taking pictures when one of those 30 lbs lawnmowers hit him).

[_JP_]

yep Lithium cells can be very dangerous, very high power!

I work for Steatite and we do Li-poly packs, I never touch them, they are OK if handled properly. We have a battery bomb bunker, if any cells get warm they go in this bunker made of concrete and filled with sand, shut the lid and RUN!!

[neiloliver]

We need to see what comes back from the AGM and see if the BRCA (through Paul) have any plans to change things for next year, otherwise all we have is rumour and speculation. From my point of view, the cells are abused terribly and you can always make a cell or battery go through a rapid disassembly if abused 'in the right/wrong way'.. but the ease with which it now seems possible is alarming.

The problem with the newer breed of cells is that the Chinese manufacturers are trading safety for other performance traits such as capacity and voltage. To get these traits you need thinner canned walls (the cell can not handle pressure as well) and thinner seperators (the cells are more prone to internal shorts). You also need a near 1:1 match between the two electrodes to increase capacity and a near starved electrolyte system (to increase capacity and voltage but these do nothing for life).

You also need a good vent mechanism. Newer cells use rubber slug vents rather than spring vents and these are not as robust, they also distort or have their properties effected by external soldering. There can also be issues with cell seperator melting and blocking up the vents in the cell.

If this were the powertool market then none of the high capacity NiMH cells we use would get qualified, they are just too tempremental.

Sanyo got out of this game and basicaly handed it to the Chinese cell manufacturers which is a shame as Sanyo make the best NiMH cells full stop... but they top out now at 3000mAh or 2600mAh if you want a really good high drain NiMH cell that will last you for years....

If cells we used had to meet strict cycle life and safety tests we could go back to running 2600mAh NiMH Cs... but we might need to reduce the length of our races ;)

All of this is my personal view, nothing to do with my work* (*disclaimer as Snr Tech Manager for Chinese owned Battery Company).

In the mean time, stay safe.

N

[ashleyb4]

So blow up then neil :D:p
you can always make a cell or battery go through a rapid disassembly



In the mean time, stay safe. And stay in school!

N

:wtf:

A

[Wraggy]

If cells we used had to meet strict cycle life and safety tests we could go back to running 2600mAh NiMH Cs... but we might need to reduce the length of our races ;)


Why ??? 15 years ago we still ran 5 min races on 1200 Batteries !!!!!!
THE GOOD OLD DAYS ... :D

[stefke]

Why ??? 15 years ago we still ran 5 min races on 1200 Batteries !!!!!!
THE GOOD OLD DAYS ... :D

exactly what I was thinking !
I started racing with those black Sanyo 1900SCRC's and we raced 5min too.

Laptimes in offroad haven't gone down that much since the NiCd era.
Onroad is a different matter of course.

[ashleyb4]

we should all race with sanyo 3600 then we would all be happy resonable capacity and safe for all the people concerned.

A

[Chris Green]

but then, wouldn't people will just charge at a higher current to give them a competitive advantage? thus making them unstable too?

I wonder how much of an issue there would be if we all charged at 1C (i.e. 4.2A for 4200's), as per manufacturer recommendations? I wonder if the number of explosions would be the same?

I've witnessed some IB4200's explode, indoors, at a meeting early this year. Scary stuff, but then I've also seen people charge at 5.5A, then repeak at 7.5A, so its hardly surprising, as they are abused so much.

[Southwell]

Eveyone in the know, knows you shouldn't re-peak 4200's. I personally charge them in enough time to just be cool or warm before i put them in the car.

[neiloliver]

If people are charging at >4A then there is a name for that.. its called natural selection ;)

I too remember the days of the N-1300SCR and KR-1800SCE etc... and yes we managed five minutes.. that last lap was somewhat fingers crossed though :)

Technical bit.. You know I mentioned the 1:1 match.. do you know what that is? I will explain if anyone is interested... All NiCd and NiMH cells have what is called an electrode match, it is the ratio between positive and negative electrodes. The negative electrode is ALWAYS larger than the positive. This is because a charging cell gives off oxygen gas from the positive electrode and this is recombined in the negative and keeps the cell in equilibrium (this is why you can trickle charge batteries in cordless screwdrivers, emergency lighting etc).. The problem with the match is that the capacity of the cell is driver by the shorter electrode, so a cell with long life that you can trickle charge needs a much longer negative electrode and this means low capacity. You can increase the capacity by having the electrodes similar lengths but this reduces the life and the cells ability to withstand overcharge abuse.. it also reduces the cycle life as the longer negative electrode is used as a reserve as it oxidises due to the oxygen in the system.

The faster the charge the more gas is generated, and this has to be combined.. if gas is generated faster than it can be combined then the cell pressure builds up and the cell has to vent. Venting is a safety measure and I am sure we have all heard it on old cells while charging. (a little fizzing sound) the problem with venting is that some electrolyte is lost and this dries out the cell, so a cell that has vented will quickly deteriorate. Of course if you are charging a fully charged cell at high rate then the gas cannot recombine fast enough and the cell vents... or explodes if there is an issue with the vent (sealed shut with solder, bent by abuse, blocked etc etc..).

Lastly, our hobby chargers terminate on what is called 'negative delta V' which is the roll over of voltage when the cell is fully charged, this phenomenon is caused by the recombination reaction and is handy because we can use it to stop our charging.. except that it does not happen instantaneously when repeaking a fully charged cell so you are pushing a fully charged cell further into overcharge by re-peaking. Couple this with the fact that the charger is not looking at each cell, it is looking at a six cell string and you have the problem of matching, where one lower capacity cell can be well into overcharge with it's pressure building up but your charger cannot detect it because the other five cells are masking the fall in voltage...

so..
only charge at 4A max
use a low -dV threshold (3mV/cell)
use a Max T temperature backup (45°C)
do not repeak
Always allow cells to cool before recharging
balance cells as often as you can on a discharger with a 0.9V cut-off

[SlowOne]

We need to see what comes back from the AGM and see if the BRCA (through Paul) have any plans to change things for next year, otherwise all we have is rumour and speculation. From my point of view, the cells are abused terribly and you can always make a cell or battery go through a rapid disassembly if abused 'in the right/wrong way'.. but the ease with which it now seems possible is alarming.

The problem with the newer breed of cells is that the Chinese manufacturers are trading safety for other performance traits such as capacity and voltage. Why is this abuse never directed at the matchers who boast of the 'voltage enhancing' methods? Do we know what these methods are, and do we know that they do not have an impact on these occurences? We're beating ourselves with sticks, but has anyone actually taken a cell direct from China and tried it? I don't know if it is a factor, but why is it never discussed?

Neil's reminder on what you should do with the cells is timely - that's what is recommended. I am a little peeved that people ignoring this advice in the face of mounting evidence are putting my racing in jeopardy.

but then, wouldn't people will just charge at a higher current to give them a competitive advantage? thus making them unstable too?No. Sanyo cells could take anything you could throw at them. Back in the 1200 NiCad days, you could get a real fast run in Stock, by charging your cells direct from a 12v battery, without any problems! Even the 2400 cells were bombproof, and the set of 3000 (I think) Sanyo NiMh I have as a hack set on the bench for years still work fine - and they've been left flat, blitzed at 6A, and generally abused. I wouldn't dare do any of these things with IBs, and never have!! :o

Eveyone in the know, knows you shouldn't re-peak 4200's. I personally charge them in enough time to just be cool or warm before i put them in the car.Ah... So I should ignore the re-peaking advice I got from a well-known person who develops motors and cells for a well-known European company... And he also said charge them in time for them to stand for ten minutes before they're run, irrespective of temperature. Oh well, he's obviously not in the know...

Conflicting advice; it's a bugger...!

[mark christopher]

Why is this abuse never directed at the matchers who boast of the 'voltage enhancing' methods? Do we know what these methods are, and do we know that they do not have an impact on these occurences? We're beating ourselves with sticks, but has anyone actually taken a cell direct from China and tried it? I don't know if it is a factor, but why is it never discussed?

Neil's reminder on what you should do with the cells is timely - that's what is recommended. I am a little peeved that people ignoring this advice in the face of mounting evidence are putting my racing in jeopardy.

No. Sanyo cells could take anything you could throw at them. Back in the 1200 NiCad days, you could get a real fast run in Stock, by charging your cells direct from a 12v battery, without any problems! Even the 2400 cells were bombproof, and the set of 3000 (I think) Sanyo NiMh I have as a hack set on the bench for years still work fine - and they've been left flat, blitzed at 6A, and generally abused. I wouldn't dare do any of these things with IBs, and never have!! :o

Ah... So I should ignore the re-peaking advice I got from a well-known person who develops motors and cells for a well-known European company... And he also said charge them in time for them to stand for ten minutes before they're run, irrespective of temperature. Oh well, he's obviously not in the know...

Conflicting advice; it's a bugger...!

Er dont preach what you dont practice,manufactures recomend no repeak or using solder to join cells, so presume you do both........who is putting your racing in jepordey now?

[bigred5765]

but isn't it just simply the fact that most of the cells that have blow up, haven't been equalised first, the last 3 sets i seen go bang, i asked the people involved and all said equalise is that really necessary,?? well yeah. i never had one go bang yet, discharge then equalise before you charge, problem solved

[Spencer Mulcahy]

If people are charging at >4A then there is a name for that.. its called natural selection ;)

I too remember the days of the N-1300SCR and KR-1800SCE etc... and yes we managed five minutes.. that last lap was somewhat fingers crossed though :)

Technical bit.. You know I mentioned the 1:1 match.. do you know what that is? I will explain if anyone is interested... All NiCd and NiMH cells have what is called an electrode match, it is the ratio between positive and negative electrodes. The negative electrode is ALWAYS larger than the positive. This is because a charging cell gives off oxygen gas from the positive electrode and this is recombined in the negative and keeps the cell in equilibrium (this is why you can trickle charge batteries in cordless screwdrivers, emergency lighting etc).. The problem with the match is that the capacity of the cell is driver by the shorter electrode, so a cell with long life that you can trickle charge needs a much longer negative electrode and this means low capacity. You can increase the capacity by having the electrodes similar lengths but this reduces the life and the cells ability to withstand overcharge abuse.. it also reduces the cycle life as the longer negative electrode is used as a reserve as it oxidises due to the oxygen in the system.

The faster the charge the more gas is generated, and this has to be combined.. if gas is generated faster than it can be combined then the cell pressure builds up and the cell has to vent. Venting is a safety measure and I am sure we have all heard it on old cells while charging. (a little fizzing sound) the problem with venting is that some electrolyte is lost and this dries out the cell, so a cell that has vented will quickly deteriorate. Of course if you are charging a fully charged cell at high rate then the gas cannot recombine fast enough and the cell vents... or explodes if there is an issue with the vent (sealed shut with solder, bent by abuse, blocked etc etc..).

Lastly, our hobby chargers terminate on what is called 'negative delta V' which is the roll over of voltage when the cell is fully charged, this phenomenon is caused by the recombination reaction and is handy because we can use it to stop our charging.. except that it does not happen instantaneously when repeaking a fully charged cell so you are pushing a fully charged cell further into overcharge by re-peaking. Couple this with the fact that the charger is not looking at each cell, it is looking at a six cell string and you have the problem of matching, where one lower capacity cell can be well into overcharge with it's pressure building up but your charger cannot detect it because the other five cells are masking the fall in voltage...

so..
only charge at 4A max
use a low -dV threshold (3mV/cell)
use a Max T temperature backup (45°C)
do not repeak
Always allow cells to cool before recharging
balance cells as often as you can on a discharger with a 0.9V cut-off

Now this is a piece of advise that I am going to follow as it is from someone that knows what he is talking about Cheers Neil.

[bigred5765]

as i said equalise and u should be OK, thanks Neil great piece of info

[SlowOne]

Er dont preach what you dont practice,manufactures recomend no repeak or using solder to join cells, so presume you do both........who is putting your racing in jepordey now?Steady tiger... I don't remember saying I followed the advice, I remember saying that I had received conflicting advice.

I follow Neil's advice. I have never had a cell go, or lose power, or anything else, since I started using IBs two years ago. I think Neil's right, but my note was simply pointing out that things stated on here as being gospel are not, and that advice one receives conflicts.

[Alan1467]

Id really rather not think about that, after the tread about national tracks......


back on topic: Cells can be dangerous if abused, and lets face it everyone racing electric cars are abusing the cells by charging them at least 8 times the manufactures rated current. but we have all seen a LiPo explosion on youtube, they seem alot more likely and much, much more violent, a cell exploded at TRCC a week or so ago, the guy was sitting right next to it and it caused no injury that i know of, and i was there.


And they were GP3700's not IB's

[josh_smaxx]

And they were GP3700's not IB's

Well that says its not only IB's that go bang.

[mark christopher]

having seen a lipo go up, and an ib the lipo is way less violent and danjerous than a nimh

[DaHomie]

Isn't it so that we have been blowing up cells since about the time RC started?
NEVER have any federation stopped it though, before now, when some jerks in the Norwegian federation did it.
No investigation into what actually happened when cells blew up last weekend in Norway. And of course no reaction what so ever before these incidents happened "at home"...

Reading the explanations in this thread regarding these newer cells I think it is obvious that these so called explosions must have come from some kind of abuse. I mean, have anyone ever soldered tabs to cells without ever overheating a cell...

When reading the panic actions and statements that the Nor. federation has published, I think that their next move can not be anything else than to force their clubs to have people overseeing/managing all cell charging that will have to take place in a designated area well separated from pit/racing area. Probably on the clubs owns chargers that have to be exactly the same chargers with a maximum possible charge rate of 1C...
Next step after that will then be that the fed. people can stop working and go home, since there will be no more racers and no more clubs...

[Chrislong]

Ive had a set of Epic3800's go, had a bit of warning so chucked them into long grass.

What I tend to do now, is leave my cells with whatever is left from a race in then either in the morning of the night I am racing or the evening before the day I am racing I will discharge, allow to cool, equalise, cool and partial charge my IB4200's to 3000mah at home - then when I go to the track I peak the cells for racing with.

Is this a bad way of doing it? :confused:

My IB4200's seem to have deteriorated in performance faster than any other cells I have ever had.

[Northy]

They don't like being re-peaked Chris, as they don't actually 'peak' very well the second time, causing overcharge as Neil said.

I tend to not re-peak, but if I do (because the cells have been charged too soon before I race) I just put 200 seconds into them and cut off the charge myself.

Discharge, equalise and charge on the day would be my suggestion Chris.

G

[Chrislong]

Well I don't peak them on the 1st charge, just do a partial - come off cool and keep it to 5amp at home, this is what I am confused with, as its only the 2nd charge I let the peak detection cut in.

I find it more convenient this way, but if it is wrong - yeh I'll discharge, equalise and charge at the track - although the 1st pack i charge will get charged from storeage so I don't get a little behind..... I'd then rotate which pack I charge first, so I have no 1 pack which is abused, all of them will be in turn.

Chris

[barnyard]

the ideal method from what i've been told by those that know is

discharge, equalise and immediatly charge never re peak once charged
if being stored between meetings leave 1/4 to 1/2 charge in
if not being used cycle cells 1/mth also discharge and put in 1/4 to 1/2 charge weekly

also storage conditions have a big effect if kept in a cold place the cells will hold more of the storage charge than if kept somewhere hot

[damo666]

having seen a lipo go up, and an ib the lipo is way less violent and danjerous than a nimh


Me also,Lipo cells seem to burst into flames but nimh packs EXPLODE.

[Northy]

Yeh, cause flames aren't dangerous are they? :eh?:

G

[mark christopher]

Yeh, cause flames aren't dangerous are they? :eh?:

G
wont do as much damage as exploding bits of metal tho!

[Northy]

Even if some kid has them on charge in the garage, or on his bedroom floor? :confused:

G

[Chrislong]

I agree Mark, but both choices aren't particularly nice.

The question is, do we have an issue with safety? Will the BRCA intervenene ? To be honest, right now, I am just taking good notice of all good advice to do what I can to avoid a potential explosion.

[Northy]

Is Lipo charging covered on house insurance? :confused:

G

[Chrislong]

Well, general "Battery charging" would be considered safer than various other things done in the house I hope.... who'd give them the nitty gritty on "I was charging Lipo at 20amps and set the cutoff wrong", not me.

Chris

[Northy]

I was just point out why I though an 'on fire' lipo would be worse than an exploding nimh, but I agree, both are bad.

G

[damo666]

I'd rather try to put out a fire than pull bits of shrapnel from my eyes;)

[bondy]

Even if some kid has them on charge in the garage, or on his bedroom floor? :confused:

G


Seem to remember the ones at worksop setting fire to some tissue near by, Which then someone decided to put on the floor of the hall :mad:.

I had to pick that up and run outside !!!!! Good job smelly smoke users have a put out bin outside !!!!

Borrowed a friends ib's for the rug racers on sunday and was a bit worried about em going up more than my lipo's

[Ole C]

Hi guys

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what has happened in Norway the last few days.

The blown up battery pack picured at redrc.net is mine.
One more pack exploded during the raceweekend, and we measured more than 130degrees C on one more pack(Integy I think).

On monday I sent a mail to the Norwegian federation expressing my concerns for the safety of the drivers.
At that very weekend EFRA had a meeting where Team Orion and LRP had expressed concernes regarding the IB4200 cells.
This in total lead to the decision of stopping all races sanctioned by the national federation.

The Federation has NOT banned club level activity, but have advised the clubs to temporarily stop their activities until investigations have been conducted to improve the safety of the drivers.

It is my understanding that most clubs here will allow regular activity but without IB4200 cells, and of course beeing more focused on not overcharging any other batteries.

I normally charge my batteries at 5A with 3mV deltapeak, and 43 degrees C tempcut for safety. I use a Team Orion Advantage charger.
When my pack exploded I had borrowed a charger (same charger) since my charger was busy with disharging the pack I raced with last to see how much was left.

I later discovered that this charger was set at 6A charge with 6mV deltapeak, still 43 degrees C cutoff. So this was obviously neglect on my part, which I do not refuse.
Still, the guy that own this charger charges his batteries in this way so this could still be next to me in a race...
As a sidenote, I later found a tech note in my pitcase, from a different manufacturer saying that the recommended charger settings for IB4200 cells are 6A charge and 5mV deltapeak.

The other pack that blew up (LRP) was charged at 5,5A but I don't know the deltapeak setting.

I was listening to music while getting my car ready for the last final.
When I removed my headset I heard a fizzing noise and looked at my battery. Smoke was gushing out from one cell and I immediately shut the lid on the case with the charger. '
Then I realized that there were three more chargers, probably with batteries connected, in this case...
I opened the lid and pulled out the battery. Fortunately I was sitting at the rearmost row in the pit, with about 10m to the back wall.
I threw the battery along the floor over to the back wall. From then it was a matter of 3-5 seconds before the blast. And yes, this is a blast. Similar to a shotgun blast.

If that thing had blown up in my face I'm sure I would have been blind today. Fingers would have been lost if it had gone of when I held it.

[showtime]

sounds like you had a lucky escape by being able to get the pack away before it went off! :o
its a good remeinder to us all that ideally we need to monitor our cells when charging as things can & do happen!

dude your English is fantastic! your spelling etc is better than most people i know :)
when i raced in Norway this year i was surprised how good everybodys english was & everybody was so friendly. loved the place :D

[SlowOne]

If people are charging at >4A then there is a name for that.. its called natural selection ;)

I too remember the days of the N-1300SCR and KR-1800SCE etc... and yes we managed five minutes.. that last lap was somewhat fingers crossed though :)

Technical bit.. You know I mentioned the 1:1 match.. do you know what that is? I will explain if anyone is interested... All NiCd and NiMH cells have what is called an electrode match, it is the ratio between positive and negative electrodes. The negative electrode is ALWAYS larger than the positive. This is because a charging cell gives off oxygen gas from the positive electrode and this is recombined in the negative and keeps the cell in equilibrium (this is why you can trickle charge batteries in cordless screwdrivers, emergency lighting etc).. The problem with the match is that the capacity of the cell is driver by the shorter electrode, so a cell with long life that you can trickle charge needs a much longer negative electrode and this means low capacity. You can increase the capacity by having the electrodes similar lengths but this reduces the life and the cells ability to withstand overcharge abuse.. it also reduces the cycle life as the longer negative electrode is used as a reserve as it oxidises due to the oxygen in the system.

The faster the charge the more gas is generated, and this has to be combined.. if gas is generated faster than it can be combined then the cell pressure builds up and the cell has to vent. Venting is a safety measure and I am sure we have all heard it on old cells while charging. (a little fizzing sound) the problem with venting is that some electrolyte is lost and this dries out the cell, so a cell that has vented will quickly deteriorate. Of course if you are charging a fully charged cell at high rate then the gas cannot recombine fast enough and the cell vents... or explodes if there is an issue with the vent (sealed shut with solder, bent by abuse, blocked etc etc..).

Lastly, our hobby chargers terminate on what is called 'negative delta V' which is the roll over of voltage when the cell is fully charged, this phenomenon is caused by the recombination reaction and is handy because we can use it to stop our charging.. except that it does not happen instantaneously when repeaking a fully charged cell so you are pushing a fully charged cell further into overcharge by re-peaking. Couple this with the fact that the charger is not looking at each cell, it is looking at a six cell string and you have the problem of matching, where one lower capacity cell can be well into overcharge with it's pressure building up but your charger cannot detect it because the other five cells are masking the fall in voltage...

so..
only charge at 4A max
use a low -dV threshold (3mV/cell)
use a Max T temperature backup (45°C)
do not repeak
Always allow cells to cool before recharging
balance cells as often as you can on a discharger with a 0.9V cut-offFor anyone wanting good advice on charging, Neil seems to speak a lot of sense. I've used this regime and have IB cells still going strong (lost a bit of volts, but little capacity) after 18 months Club and National racing. This is from the IB site:

Charge the battery with quality charger, and max. current 3~4A.
Charging cut-off setting : Peak voltage = 5mV per cell, Temperature <55ºC,
and best with timer.
[Example on Peak voltage calculation : 6-cell pack = 5mV x 6 = 0.03V]
The battery can offer high current discharge, and be good for the level of
10A+ (with Tamiya plug).
If you expect to leave the battery idle for >2 weeks, charge it for 1/3 capacity
(say, 3A for 20 minutes)
Avoid to store the battery in hot & humid environment. Best temperature
would be around 20~25ºC

What's interesting is the recommended charge rate, and anticipated discharge rate!

If that thing had blown up in my face I'm sure I would have been blind today. Fingers would have been lost if it had gone of when I held it.Good to get your direct experience, Ole. I think we know what can happen, but the truth is that in all these incidents with cells over the many years, I know of only one where there was an injury. Part of the problem (we leave cells to charge on their own) is also part of the reason that injuries are mercifully few.

Would anyone here give up their IBs if asked by their Club, or BRCA Section?

[RogerM]

As stated before I haven't even recieved my IB's yet (sunday from Neil) but I am already running scared ....... would I give them up and go back to something more stable like 3300/3000s ..... absolutely!!!! I am actually regretting getting IB's now and whished I'd spent more time hunting around for some well matched, lower capacity, cells. The only thing that reasures me is that Neil is personally building up my packs and doing the initial cycles ready for their first use on Sunday and that I am likely to pit near Dom of DC racing who has him self been a cell matcher (my old DC 3300s are still really good ..... not sure how after 3 years of storage!!!) who will not hold back in offering assistance (and shouting at me if needed if I'm doing something wrong!!!).

Obviously having been away for a couple of years I'm not sure personally but would anybody actually be going significantly slower on 3300s????

[mark christopher]

Even if some kid has them on charge in the garage, or on his bedroom floor? :confused:

G

I was just point out why I though an 'on fire' lipo would be worse than an exploding nimh, but I agree, both are bad.

G
im not meaning either is better, but i do mean damage to me and fellow racers

leaving cells unatended while charging should be a big no no,

[KyoshoK]

Hey Ole C, where they new packs? did you just make the packs up? how many cycles did they have on them?

Thanks

[Ole C]

Hi

Good to see a forum where people actually read the posts before posting themselves.

KyoshoK: My packs were new at the DHI race in Denmark January this year. I guess they have 50-70 charges on them.

@Showtime: Thanks :) I think we spoke briefly at the cafeteria on our track, if you were here for the EFRA GP race this summer. I had the big tent with the cars/fuel etc. on display.

I think we all agree that there is no way this hobby can be 100% hazard free. But when such a large number of incidents occur in such a short time, and two of the major companies in this industry advice against using these cells, action must be taken. And of course not everybody will be happy.

My guess is that IB4200 cell will be banned shortly, or at least strict rules on how to charge them will be imposed.
Overall rules on charging is also inevetable I guess. And as long as we as racers do concern ourselves a bit more with safety when having fun with our cars, I think all will be good again :)

[BentM]

To clarify exactly what the federation has done:
We have adopted the new EFRA Rules immediately. This means the approved list of batteries is not allowed for racing in Norway. EFRA made new rules, which will ban nearly all approved batteries that are on the lists today. The dimensions are changing (length and diameter.)
Ole C explained very well what happened. This was reported to me, Monday morning. I then read it just after arriving from the EFRA AGMs where it was several countries who wanted the rule changes for batteries immediately.
Because EFRA do not have any race before 1st April, their rule changes takes effect from that date. In April all drivers anyway has to change batteries, maybe we can do it asap and only once this season?
We are investigating and really do hope to find some easy solution to start racing at club level as soon as possible. We have cancelled only one round of national races because of the unsure circumstances. We are getting help from our Government to investigate the batteries that exploded to check if they are made after rules for such products.
I have also asked distributors if they can recommend us to use some of their products. The answer was: We recommend you to wait for the new “generation” of batteries. So, we do that with the racing in Norway.
Next weekend we have our AGM-meeting and will discuss the matter with the clubs. I really do hope we find temporarely solution with their agreements.
You can read a press release sent to EFRA, all members of EFRA and several other interests here: http://www.rczone.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=834 (http://www.rczone.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=834)
And please, allow me to not have Ole Cs skills in English language. But with help from mr. Bill Gates I do hope its understanding.
Best Regards
Bent Magnussen
President Division Radio Controlled Motorsport
Norwegian Motorsport Federation

[Swiss]

Buy a Spintec, individual cell charger... checks each cell voltage and temperature.. Perfect! No problems with my IB's since purchased them begining of this year!

Charge at 5.5A, 48deg, 3mV cut off!

[Alfonzo]

Maybe everyone should be advised to go easy on the charging amps, as that seems to be the big factor here?

[DaveG28]

I am getting more and more scared by all this. From what I have seen, the lack of injuries is pure luck, and I am glad some of the federations are looking into it before its too late. This is a hobby, with many children involved, potentially these incidents could be lethal if someone was unlucky (for example leaning in to investigate the battery as its happening)! Ona less important note from a health point of view, even a relatively minor injury can lead to insurance claims, which may stop the BRCA gaining insurance, that WOULD stop our racing!

Personnally I am unsure what to do, I have only IB's from Orion. One pack I have connected the wrong way round (saved by the wires desoldering from the connectors) which I am now guessing may have damaged the vents? and two other packs pop and fizz every time they are charged!

On the one hand, if charging at 4 amps and the lowest delta peak cutoff will keep it safe, I am happy to sacrifice whatever performance, but although that helps do any of us know how much the risk is reduced?

Finally, people seem to be suggesting equalising often will help, is this true? I have an equaliser but have never used it so far!

[Cooper]

IB 4200 are not longer covered by the insurance from the Belgian federation...
They forbid the use of the IB cells!

http://users.telenet.be/fba/NLMededelen4.htm

[josh_smaxx]

It seems that we need to change cells then, until the manufacturer can make these cell reliable and safe then we are going to have to go back to GP, EP ect. And i cant see a problem with using these as they have plenty capacity, plenty of voltage and are a fair bit cheaper than IB's.

[neiloliver]

I am not sure it is as easy as that.. have you tried buying GP cells lately? they are very hard to come buy. I was told by GP in the UK that they are concentrating on other markets, and I dont think EP are more reliable. I get more DEAD-IN-BOX or low capacity EP cells than IB. How each would perform in a head to head abuse test I dont know. In the mean time I stongly suggest adhering the the best practice advice that I and others have posted in this thread. I do agree that some changes need to be made to protect us, our propery and out hobby and I am sure the BRCA will take the lead on this in the coming months.

N

[josh_smaxx]

I am not sure it is as easy as that.. have you tried buying GP cells lately? they are very hard to come buy. I was told by GP in the UK that they are concentrating on other markets, and I dont think EP are more reliable. I get more DEAD-IN-BOX or low capacity EP cells than IB. How each would perform in a head to head abuse test I dont know. In the mean time I stongly suggest adhering the the best practice advice that I and others have posted in this thread. I do agree that some changes need to be made to protect us, our propery and out hobby and I am sure the BRCA will take the lead on this in the coming months.

N

True about getting hold of the GP cells, i never though of that, the EP's might go bad in that way (iv had a cell die) but i cant remember ere of a case of an EP exploding (waiting to be corrected on that one) and i think that they could hold out ok in an abuse test, especially against IB's, i think an ice swan would hold out better then IB's :D

[Cooper]

aren't the GP sub C cells used in cordless drills?

[neiloliver]

Not the high capacity ones for RC car use, they are too expensive and the cycle life would be too poor for cordless power tools, The GP220SCH would be used by GP in such applications, maybe the 3Ah cell but nothing higher than that. Sanyo dont sell higher than 2.6Ah and 3.0Ah Cs for powertool and I imagine the other main players are the same. Remeber that Power tool is split into two main markets.. professional and DIY. The professionals need top quality and cycle life, they use mostly japanese cells (Sanyo mostly). The DIY market uses Chinese cells and most of these are still NiCd with some NiMH.. but it's all Cheap.

[MattW]

Neil, In theory GP cells should be out there. I made some enquires about getting hold of some 4600s - apparently there were a load of them last spotted in a warehouse in Europe somewhere - Holland i think it was!!

GM have matched a few 4600's, but not been shipped over here. Orion likewise. Orion have also had some of the latest gen 4300's i believe, but not many, and not many shipped anywhere.

[neiloliver]

I was also told there were lots shipped to Europe. It is strange that we are not seeing them. I have also asked in Japan and China and the answer has been "not available". odd.

[mole2k]

I got some GP4300's last summer and my LHS says he hasnt been able to get GP's in since.

[DaveG28]

Would the GP4300's be any better than IB's? The reason I switched to IB's was that my GP4300's seemed to lose punch very quickly which I asumed was cells deteriorating?

If its just a little performance difference but they are safer, I may try and switch back!

In general though, would 4A charging and using the equaliser make a good difference anyway? Should I worry about the batterys which are popping/fizzing a lot?

Dave

[Ole C]

We have tried a few 4300's and they have all been bad (ie. low capacity and no punch). 3700's and 3900's performed much better. But they are hard to find now, since IB4200 has been dominant for so long.

[Spencer Mulcahy]

This is starting to worry me a little. For the first time I have a full compliment of batteries after just running on three sets for years, all of them IB 4200. If we have to change I dont know where I will get the money from to replace them all. Will the companys compencate financialy if they are banned (I am not talking about model shops as they operate on slim profit margines as it is). Has anybody E mailed anybody from the brca about this to see what they think about all this.

[neiloliver]

I know the BRCA are working hard on this. I am sure they will communicate something once all the facts are known, we should not panic, just follow best practise and use some common sense.

[super__dan]

I've held out on this thread. I firmly believe the problems are caused by the enormous variation rates of self discharge on modern cells. I think equalising before charge is vital and with this your chances of problems are enormously reduced.

I always equalise cells before use on their first charge of the day. If I'm using a pack of cells twice, I most likely won't bother for the 2nd charge though.

For racers this is fine, but it's the kids with stick packs etc I get most worried for.

[Spencer Mulcahy]

OK Neil cheers for the reply I have re-set my novak millenium to all the setting that you posted earlyer in this thread.

[neiloliver]

I firmly believe the problems are caused by the enormous variation rates of self discharge on modern cells. I think equalising before charge is vital and with this your chances of problems are enormously reduced.

I agree. If a cell does develop a small internal short (called a 'soft' short) then the Self Discharge will be worse for that cell. this means that guy has a lower state of charge and will be discharged first when you are discharging the pack, it also stands a higher chance of being forced to zero or being driven negative. This can lead to development of hydrogen gas which cannot be recombined. When the pack is then charged again this guy lags behind the others in the pack and never reaches top of charge.. it is then forced lower on the next cycle.. it is a downward spiral... Yes, equalisation is good.

Ideally your discharger should have a 0.9V-1.0V per cell cutoff but if it doesnt then you are still better using it and maybe suffering some irrecoverable capacity loss than never equalising. I will confess that my equaliser does not have a low voltage cutoff (shock horror!) but I dont leave it connected for long after all the lights have gone out. It is keeping NiMH cells shorted down that kills them, not doing it for a few minutes.

Im off to rebuild buy bx now... Need to beat Mike, Jeff and Ash and Kidi tomorrow..

Neil

[DaveG28]

Yep, think I am definitely going down to 4 Amp charging, and using the equaliser the night before each meeting too!

[showtime]

so if you had a discharger that took the cells down to zero that would be a bad thing right?

i'm new to the leccy side of things as i usually run nitro :eh?:

[neiloliver]

I know that my saying you can discharge below 0.9V is going to get a lot of 'stick' because this goes against everything we have been told for NiMH. I am not saying that it is ideal, i am just saying that if your only option to equalise is to use a discharger without a cut-off then it is better to use that than to not equalise at all. Dont leave the battery pack connected for ages. For example I did mine last night, I put the pack on the hearth and kept an eye on it while i watched TV*. Once the six lights went out i measured each cell (still on load) and the voltage of each was ~0.2V. I removed the pack and measured each cell again.. they were all back up at >1.2V. (because they instalntly recover when taken off load) I let the pack cool and then charged it.. it worked fine.

*Rocky II DVD, but any other program or film works just as well.

[Spencer Mulcahy]

If you put packs on the hearth to discharge make sure the fire is not on.:D

[SlowOne]

I can't think of any cell we've ever used since 1976 where there hasn't been the odd problem. From venting to disintegration, every type of cell has been misused to the point of failure. Recently it appears that one make of cell has had more of these issues than any other.

Appreciating that this is a guess (so please put your own numbers in if you like) there are 2000 people racing every week. Say they charge 3 times on average, and they do that 30 times a year. That's 180,000 cycles. I can count about 20 incidents quoted of a cell failure that might cause injury, or 0.01%. Any incident that hurts someone is horrific, and that's a very, very small number from which to trace a root cause.

To make things more difficult, there doesn't seem to be any common situation surrounding the incidents that have occured. We need to be patient, let the BRCA/EFRA and their contacts do their work, and hope that there is a resolution that reduces the possibility of an incident. Please also remember that someone has suffered an injury from a pack fitted into a Nitro car (receiver pack), so any action affects almost all RC, not just Electric RC.

I use the same regime as Neil Oliver, and I have not had the problems suffered by others using IBs.

[telboy]

just a couple of things, not realy on topic, but sort of, is....if that makes sense.:wtf:

I've use IB's for years and never really had a 'serious' problem with them (like exploding cells).
Of course I've just bought some new ones, which look like they are going to be useless soon. But I've got a couple of things to ask.

Is it common for them to vent?
I've had a pack that has vented for ages probably the whole of this year, yet it doesn't seem to lose any perfomance...infact its probably one of my best packs.

the other thing is discharging. I have a nosram equaliser board. but there is one cell in the middle of the pack that ALWAYS takes longer than the other cells to discharge. This is on every pack. Why is this?

I'm looking forward to the saddle pack li-po's.:)

[SlowOne]

Terry, I don't have the venting problem, though my older cells do what yours do on discharge.

I think that when the pack is discharged, there is always one cell that had more capacity than the rest, and it takes the longest to discharge to the minimum voltage. Add to that the low discharge rates of my (Novak) tray, and it seems to take ages for the light to go out. It's just a co-incidence that it is always a middle cell, as mine can be anywhere in the packs I have. HTH :)

[SlowOne]

This was posted on (ahem!) another forum

"The Swedish federation has now banned the IB4200 cells with batch code "AZCWT". They have also specified that EP4600, EP4200 (with the black ring) and also Team Orion 4200 SHO is allowed in Sweden dispite not being EFRA legal.

As far as I can see of the info released they don't say anything about banning other batches of IB so I would guess all other IB4200 are allowed.

http://forum.radiostyrdbilsport.nu/p....php?f=2&t=749 "

Tried the link, but we didn't do Swedish at school... :D

[b4rs]

it may sound stupid, but if you cant use solder to join batterys what do you use?

[b4rs]

i have used a Venom Racing 3600 battery, and i have had this almost a year now, it still give sharp and ace performance, i love it and it still lasts till the end of the race as long as i dont break owt!

[DaHomie]

it may sound stupid, but if you cant use solder to join batterys what do you use?

First of all I think they are talking about the terminating cells. This means that everyone will have to use plugs from now on, instead of directly soldering the wires to the cells or to the L shaped battery bars.

Secondly, you could avoid the heat of soldering the cells together, just take your battery to a professional shop that can cold solder them together for you. Takes them about 5 minutes and most often the cost is very low.

[Chrislong]

The solder rule is a good one, its just for the pos and neg terminal. It means that when someones car goes up in blue smoke it can be unplugged and made safe by the marshall trackside.... whereas a soldered wire will need cutting and therefore will remain connected while the car is burning with wheels screaming.

[sosidge]

A very simple way to check for a bad cell in a pack is with a basic multimeter.

Any pack that is at its resting voltage (by that I mean one that has not just come off a discharger, you will see the voltage slowly rise to a steady level) should be above 1.2V per cell (7.2V for a 6-cell pack).

If any one cell is below 1.2V or if any pack is below 7.2V you know you may have something of a problem with it.

Also, if testing individual cells with a multimeter, they should all be of very similar resting voltages (I mean within a couple of hundredths) if they are acceptably equal. If 5 cells are 1.35V at rest and the other is 1.25V you can be fairly sure it is out of balance with the rest.

My advice if you think you have a problem is to equalise the pack and then charge, or in the case of a stick pack try a trickle charge which should also equalise it. However monitor the cells for excessive heat when equalising or charging, if at any point you have a cell that is more than hand-warm, stop the process and isolate the cell/pack immediately for safety.

[Cooper]

I have many 0V cells (with multimeter or discharge tray)
and when they are charged it's just fine :)

[dave p hall]

First of all I think they are talking about the terminating cells. This means that everyone will have to use plugs from now on, instead of directly soldering the wires to the cells or to the L shaped battery bars.

Secondly, you could avoid the heat of soldering the cells together, just take your battery to a professional shop that can cold solder them together for you. Takes them about 5 minutes and most often the cost is very low.

never heard of cold solder method,do you mean modelshops when you say"professional shop":confused:, while were on the subject of ib cells.i have been having problems with new packs,faulty out of the box:mad: mirage asure me once they have sorted me out packs with no dead cells.:mad:follow ib guidlines,and they will be fine:)so i have me fingers crossed:wtf:it would make intresting reading if a thread is formed with the circumstances of all cases involved,who have had problems:confused:.

[Lee]

the problem with todays crop of cells id they discharge so fast when just sitting there so when you buy you spanking shiny new world spec cells, they may have been in the box for 2 months=DEAD!!!

I got sent some cells from shuey at the start of the season, this was followed by an email from them, build and charge you cells immediatley;)

Schuey are small compared to orion etc so there cells sit on the shelf for a little less time. so my theory is to buy from a smaller matcher, ie schumacher, demon etc.