View Full Version : Sweden bans latest batch of IB4200
magnus
12-11-2007, 03:38 PM
Sweden has now banned the latest batch of IB cells due to exploding cells. The batch has the marking AZCWT. At the same time EP4200, EP4600 and the new orion cells are now allowed for racing in sweden.
stefke
12-11-2007, 03:48 PM
so does Belgium.
sosidge
12-11-2007, 04:10 PM
Well, if the argument has moved on from...
"Exploding NIMH are going to kill us all"
...to...
"Specific batches of IB4200 are unsafe, everything else is approved for use"
...then this can only be a GOOD THING.
kyosho-viking
12-11-2007, 05:03 PM
The batteries that blew up in Norway, are not from this batch, so I don't see the point.
Norwegian federation are having a meeting this weekend, with drivers and persons from the clubs, more info regarding this should be out Monday.
Well.... this means that we dont have to participate to Eskilstuna race...shame!
Well.... this means that we dont have to participate to Eskilstuna race...shame!
why not?
they only banned the latest batch off cells you can stil use the
old IB 4200
they should stop letting retarded chinese gyspsies making them in there smoggy factories, i saw in a documentary that 1 in 5 things from china dont work properly, coz some lazy guy in china cba doing this correct (probably coz of his salary) so i wouldnt be surprised, im more worried about the chinese made li-po's. they dont call em chinese specials for nothing!!:eh?:
RogerM
12-11-2007, 11:21 PM
they should stop letting retarded chinese gyspsies making them in there smoggy factories
Immediately followed by £100 per pack if not more :o
they should stop letting retarded chinese gyspsies making them in there smoggy factories, i saw in a docmentary that 1 in 5 things from china dont work properly, coz some lazy idiot in china cba doing this correct (probably coz of his salary) so i wouldnt be surprised, im more worried about the chinese made li-po's. they dont call em chinese specials for nothing!!:eh?:
I think you will find chinese workers are very hard working despite their poor salary and often poor work condions.
The reason the market is flooded lower quality products from China is because of the low prices that "We" (the western consumer) demand.
GP cells pushed Sanyo out of the market because of price/performance, now IB have pushed GP out. But to get the price down and the cell capacity up corners will be cut and quality issues ignored.
RC is the same as all markets; clothes, electrical goods, etc... We demand lower and lower prices on the high street so companies make cheap rubbish in China to satisfy our wallets. Then we complain when they pollute the world with smoggy factorys. Very little of what the chinese make is for the domestic market, mostly for export to Europe and US. So all the smog, pollution, junk and other problems the chinese make our essentally the fault of the western consumer.
We should remember how relatively cheap these products are.... I believe you can get matched EP's for £35 a pack... 15 years ago £35 would only get you sport packs, anything matched would be £45+ or so.
SlowOne
13-11-2007, 06:46 AM
they should stop letting retarded chinese gyspsies making them in there smoggy factories, i saw in a docmentary that 1 in 5 things from china dont work properly, coz some lazy idiot in china cba doing this correct (probably coz of his salary) so i wouldnt be surprised, im more worried about the chinese made li-po's. they dont call em chinese specials for nothing!!:eh?:If that's a flame post, OK, but if it's what you think...
Like Dan says, if we didn't buy cheap Chinese products, then they wouldn't have a market to sell into. Similarly, those 1 in 5 (if that's true) poor products are made for Western companies who specify what they want, and then fail to check the quality of what is delivered.
That is no different to the West - the British car, motorcycle, HiFi, and camera industries went bust because they made poor products. It isn't something exclusive to the Chinese.
There is no evidence that this is solely manufacturing fault. There is a lot of evidence that the industry (from matchers through to users) does things to these cells that are not what the manufacturer recommends, and/or may contribute to the problem. Problem is, we don't know what!
I'd like to know what it was that leads the Swedish Association to ban just this batch...
chrispattinson
13-11-2007, 10:43 AM
I'm sorry B4RS, but thats verging on racism.
jimmy
13-11-2007, 10:54 AM
Agreed, that's way over the top man.
When it comes to buying sheap stuff!
You get what you pay for!
vader
13-11-2007, 11:48 AM
B4RS
After you've had a few pints down the pub with your mates, some of your stuff might be found funny (like your jokes). Remember though, a public forum is open to everyone on the planet and sometimes somethings are just best not posted.
Northy
13-11-2007, 11:51 AM
I don't think he's old enought to drink Vader, so was probably smacked off of his tits on crack or summat....... :eh?:
G
stefke
13-11-2007, 01:10 PM
I'm getting nostalgic about my Sanyo cells. you could abuse the hell out of them and they never went "POP".
Southwell
13-11-2007, 01:14 PM
they should stop letting retarded chinese gyspsies making them in there smoggy factories, i saw in a docmentary that 1 in 5 things from china dont work properly, coz some lazy idiot in china cba doing this correct (probably coz of his salary) so i wouldnt be surprised, im more worried about the chinese made li-po's. they dont call em chinese specials for nothing!!:eh?:
I would seriously step back and think before you post. If you can't do that, don't post! :mad:
they should stop letting retarded chinese gyspsies making them in there smoggy factories, i saw in a docmentary that 1 in 5 things from china dont work properly, coz some lazy idiot in china cba doing this correct (probably coz of his salary) so i wouldnt be surprised, im more worried about the chinese made li-po's. they dont call em chinese specials for nothing!!:eh?:
No problem with the Chinese or Chinese made goods, Jordan races and is 14 years old, all of this toys and most of his clothing in this time have been made in China, and well made in China is what I always thought. Most of the goods have an "american" quality about them.
My feeling is that the Chinese work hard, are inteligent and are as honest as the next business man. Some of the factories have working conditions that may have existed over here 100 years ago, but these are improving, our batteries cannot stay as cheap if conditions change, and change they must. But expect more and more goods to come from this country.
rant over...........
bondy
13-11-2007, 02:08 PM
No problem with the Chinese or Chinese made goods, Jordan races and is 14 years old, all of this toys and most of his clothing in this time have been made in China, and well made in China is what I always thought. Most of the goods have an "american" quality about them.
My feeling is that the Chinese work hard, are inteligent and are as honest as the next business man. Some of the factories have working conditions that may have existed over here 100 years ago, but these are improving, our batteries cannot stay as cheap if conditions change, and change they must. But expect more and more goods to come from this country.
rant over...........
More than likely in the next ten years you will be working for a company in GB thats owned by a chinese company ! China has the fortune of having its economic boom start in a modern era when they can easily plan its infrastucture using modern technology etc etc !
Remember our economic boom in a world prespective happened in the 1800 's when we had Mills in Hudderfield worked in by numpties ! using canals and waterways etc etc etc.
China has airports ! Power stations brand new motorways and willing workforces to resource on.
Japans rise is an example. Perhaps if we had not reduced all there cites to rubble it might had been a different story. But in the last 50 years they have had time to rebuild ! Do things right ! proper infrastructer etc etc. Were here in England ?? Well most cities are old streets and highways and roads cannot cope ! We are slowly choking. UK,USA,France etc are all worried about China's growth "Enviromental reasons!!"" I think they can see the future and China's is looking like it might be better than ours !!!
Just one of my thoughts !!
burgie
13-11-2007, 02:33 PM
they should stop letting retarded chinese gyspsies making them in there smoggy factories, i saw in a docmentary that 1 in 5 things from china dont work properly, coz some lazy idiot in china cba doing this correct (probably coz of his salary) so i wouldnt be surprised, im more worried about the chinese made li-po's. they dont call em chinese specials for nothing!!:eh?:
nothing but the ill-informed, adolescent racist mind would type something like that. If that really is your opinion, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Take the criticism of your post on this forum for what it is:- constructive. Learn from your mistakes, learn about and understand the modern world and learn how to spell. Then come back and participate in this discussion with posts that are based on fact and not racism.
mark christopher
13-11-2007, 03:56 PM
come on lets get back on topic, this may be out of turn, but the pc we have to put up with now is getting out of hand, we are alll entitled to opinions and we all have the freedom of speach, he has said what he felt, some may agree, some may not but lets just move on and not make a mountain of it.
lol northy funny as!
joking aside, im sorry but i dint intend it to come across as racist.
i just ment that the working conditions they are in arent good enough and i wouldnt be suprised if they didnt bother making cells properly coz i wouldnt either.
Once again im sorry:(
p.s burgi, keep your comments to your self, theres no need in you to start avin a go aswell i realise i was in the wrong when i posted and my comment was sort of taken the wrong way but can fully understand how. i can spell but have u eva heard of TXT speach??? and i type pretty fast so sometimes i miss characters, which many people do.... im expected an A in english language so i doubt i cant spell tbh.
Anyway, sounds like a pretty bad thing if batteries are going to explode and u guys in sweden and belgium cant use em'
millzy
13-11-2007, 04:13 PM
the old people on this forum dont take kindley to txt speak
MK999
13-11-2007, 04:20 PM
I use predictive text, it knows full words. :p
AndyM
13-11-2007, 05:11 PM
nothing but the ill-informed, adolescent racist mind
you know mate, prejudice is just as bad as racism.
I think what b4rs said was a very harsh thing to write, but
Im 15, so im 'adolescent', and would never, EVER! be racist. to be honest, what you said actually offends me.
so dude, you shud 'practise what you preach' as they say. In other words, don't be so hipocritical.
rant over....
super__dan
13-11-2007, 05:21 PM
the old people on this forum dont take kindley to txt speak
Or the ones getting old before their time (puts hand in the air).
Scouser
13-11-2007, 05:35 PM
I wonder what the circumstances behind these exploding cells is. I mean, if someone is running two classes and re-peaking at too high a rate with no thermal cut off then it is understandable that something will go pop. If they are just charging them 'properly' and they go then all the panic is a little more understandable.
It would be nice to know a little more about the whole story and the situations behind each incident.
SlowOne
13-11-2007, 08:20 PM
Just catching up on some posts...
In the Industrial Revolution in this country we did exactly the same things. We took people off the land, put them in slums of back to back houses, paid them low wages, made them buy from company shops and work long, long hours. From this came the Tort Laws and the Trade Unions. If the Chinese have the advantage of modern technology, and learning from history, where do you think they got the history and the technology from?
China is the longest lasting Empire on Earth, going back thousands of years. In that time, the Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Persians, Russians and every other dynasty has complained to China about its human rights record. Our human rights record in India (Ghandi) and Mesopotamia is just as appaling. They've gone, the Chinese are still here...
Before slinging mud at the Chinese, think about our record, and wonder who developed this behaviour first...
No one has any right to sling unsupported accusations at anyone about their race, colour or creed, whatever they think - it's against the Law. It isn't a point of view, it's a prejudice.
But, back in the thread, has anyone any more information about the choice of this batch of cells? And, at the risk of appearing daft, where does one find a batch number on an IB cell? (Don't tell me, it's on the button I just (shouldn't have) soldered the bar onto!! :D)
mark christopher
13-11-2007, 09:12 PM
some one on rcracehat (i think it was) had a pack go in thier car two laps into the race, sure debris hit someone but no injury
right, txt speech, it does not potray your exact intent on what you mean, and really, it maybe one or two key strokes to spell the whole word, so spell it. Coming from an engineering background, really gripes me seeing people abusing the english language.
Chinese cell factory, I would of thought that these places are just as good/bad as any other cell factory in the world, although a pic I have seen of an EP4200 blown it's cap off does appear to be a manufacturing fault, but in making that many cells, one or two will slip through, just like we get dud memory for the pc and faulty cars.
I think banning a certain batch of batteries, is a very short sighted view of what is going on, and how people are treeting these batteries, there are a lot of people thinking and doing charging at 10A in the short belief it will give them an extra nth a second a lap. either drivers got to start to take responsibility of their charging regime, or maybe clubs should take a pro-active role in controling these drivers.
Although I do think the governing bodies need to go to the manufacturers of the cells and maybe negotiate a better cell and more robust.
I wonder if controlled destruction testing is the way forward for homologation of cells?
I.e. deliberately blow up the cells to find out...
A. how easy or difficult it is to blow them up
B. how much energy is released when they blow
If these things become homologation critera maybe cell makers will have to work on inproved vent designs etc to make the cells safer.
there are so many cells made, doing selective destructive testing would be pointless, the change has got to come from the manufacturer....
DaveG28
13-11-2007, 11:24 PM
Another one went at our club tonight.
Admittedly the guy was repeaking at 7A!
Chris Green
13-11-2007, 11:36 PM
oh dear! its happening more and more often then. Hope no-one was hurt.
Do you know how old the cells were? Is there any chance they were from this batch that is being banned over in Scandinavia?
I'll be charging my cells at 1C from now on for sure.
I think you have to negate the problem by charging at the lowest rate you can get away with, I know you got to turn the cells around in a certain time, but if the time is to short, charge the day before and then just repeak on the race day.
Chris Green
13-11-2007, 11:48 PM
but re-peaking is a definite no-no with these cells? Or does that only apply if you re-peak freshly charged cells?
GRIFF55
13-11-2007, 11:50 PM
Is there anything on the market that you can charge the packs inside, just as a safety measure? I know this would give me more peace of mind, even at home. If they do away with ib's, what would be the next best/safer thing?
none of the good cells are totally safe. I am sure just placing them in a tin or even a tupperware box would hinder an explosion.
Repeaking a just charged warm pack I think is asking for trouble, but one that has rested a day, no problems, I do that most times I race, just don't get the time in the day to charge, but the cell is always cold going on and only luke warm after.
kyosho-viking
14-11-2007, 06:09 AM
none of the good cells are totally safe. I am sure just placing them in a tin or even a tupperware box would hinder an explosion.
Repeaking a just charged warm pack I think is asking for trouble, but one that has rested a day, no problems, I do that most times I race, just don't get the time in the day to charge, but the cell is always cold going on and only luke warm after.
you looking for something like this??
http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=1_BB&cat=15
that would be very awkward for nimh's especialy those in a saddle pack configuration
mark christopher
14-11-2007, 08:25 AM
you looking for something like this??
http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=1_BB&cat=15
but they are expolding in cars on the track too, so that wont fix the problem, chances are they will go as you take em out
millzy
14-11-2007, 10:07 AM
right, txt speech, it does not potray your exact intent on what you mean, and really, it maybe one or two key strokes to spell the whole word, so spell it. Coming from an engineering background, really gripes me seeing people abusing the english language.
.
see old ppl
Or the ones getting old before their time (puts hand in the air).
dan, it was you i was thinking of as i posted that
kyosho-viking
14-11-2007, 04:40 PM
but they are expolding in cars on the track too, so that wont fix the problem, chances are they will go as you take em out
charge em and leave them for ten minutes after they are finished. The reason they blow up at track, is that the driver charges them in the car, repeaking and then racing, can be a couple of minutes before they blow.
chris, txt speak has it's place, but when you are trying to convey a point across, thats just not the place.... I will admit, i hate the stuff and wish it gone, txt speak I mean.
mark christopher
14-11-2007, 06:04 PM
charge em and leave them for ten minutes after they are finished. The reason they blow up at track, is that the driver charges them in the car, repeaking and then racing, can be a couple of minutes before they blow.
how can you claim that and do you have proof?
I would agree that fully charging a pack of batteries, and then re-peaking them shortly after is going to raise the internal temp and probably pressure of the cell. But i think KV is stretching the facts just a little.
kyosho-viking
14-11-2007, 07:36 PM
I would agree that fully charging a pack of batteries, and then re-peaking them shortly after is going to raise the internal temp and probably pressure of the cell. But i think KV is stretching the facts just a little.
read your charging manuals guys, are you supposed to re-peak shortly after full charge cut-off?? Are you supposed to charge with more than 1C??
The incidents in Norway happened after charge whith 6amp and too high delta-peak. still the federation ban racing.
What do you think happens?? when driving, the cells get hot, yes. But the pressure are reducing, so if you have another theori, I would be glad to hear it.
I just think the cells that EP and IB are producing are right on the limit of performance and basicaly some survive, some don't, I am guessing that after one certain batch where they were getting loads of duds in a batch, the ones that got through were marginal too.
SlowOne
14-11-2007, 08:39 PM
If the cells are exploding (and they are) then that takes a lot of energy. Is this a viable theory...?
If it takes a lot of energy, then that has to be built up somewhere. If it were to build up slowly, then the can would distort badly first, before splitting. If that build-up were a gas, it would vent in the majority of cases through the top, or peel the cell apart at it's weakest point - probably where the lid is folded into the can. My theory is that it is not a build-up of gas that leads to the failure. If teh build up were expansion of the chemical, then the can would split, and the chemcial would spurt out, and that would be the end of the incident.
If the build-up of energy is very sudden, then the cell will fail catastrophically. The main source of a sudden pressure change would be the direct conversion of the energy in the cell, and that would come from a direct connection of positive to negative - a short-circuit. That suggests that the construction of the cell is failing quickly. The main stress put on that structure is during charging and discharging, and the higher the charge rate, the more the stress. Since we have reports of this happening during, or shortly after, charging, then it suggests to me that the charge rate, and charge condition (balance of the cells, and overcharging due to imbalance of cells at peak) is likely to be the cause of stress. My theory is that the cause of the failure is in the internal structure.
Supporting evidence is that the cells have been stretched to the maximum over the years by changes to internal structure. Those who use 1C to 1.2C charge rates, and that those who balance cells before charging at this rate, have less problems with cell performance - they go much longer before the performance goes off. Most of the reports of incidents talk about re-peaking and/or high charge rates. Also, this is not unknown from the past, and those failures would be consistent with an internal structure failure.
My theory is that the internal structure is weaker than lower capacity cells, that the charging regime is damaging that internal structure, and that the failures are from a very rapid build-up of energy arising from an internal structure failure (short-circuit) releasing large amounts of energy capable of splitting the can catastrophically.
Discuss...
kyosho-viking
14-11-2007, 08:59 PM
norwegian cell afterwards
http://forum.radiostyrt.no/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5084&d=1194344055
http://forum.radiostyrt.no/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5083&d=1194344044
http://forum.radiostyrt.no/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5085&d=1194344064
mark christopher
15-11-2007, 09:07 AM
read your charging manuals guys, are you supposed to re-peak shortly after full charge cut-off?? Are you supposed to charge with more than 1C??
The incidents in Norway happened after charge whith 6amp and too high delta-peak. still the federation ban racing.
What do you think happens?? when driving, the cells get hot, yes. But the pressure are reducing, so if you have another theori, I would be glad to hear it.
my manual for my charger does not say 1c, however the manufacture ib recomends 1c
kyosho-viking
15-11-2007, 03:46 PM
my manual for my charger does not say 1c, however the manufacture ib recomends 1c
well, excuse me, you understood what I ment.
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